The sex-change charade

[janedoe311]

I saw this a while ago and sent them a rebutall

They do not take into conderation XXY and other varations as well as intersexed which are proven to be a birth defect.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30442


No doubt this is a religious person that has no personal thought only what the Bible tells her.

So what is everyones thoughts?

[Tedi]

THis woman is so far to the right, she just may fall off the edge of the earth!
As it says at the bottom of the article.. Ellen Makkai began writing columns 16 years ago in response to what she perceived as the moral and intellectual laxity among many feminist commentators.
Interesting to see what she has to say about the Harry Potter books too..."Witchcraft and sorcery permeate Rowling's books and parents would do well to attempt the impossible: steer kids clear of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. At the very least, children determined to explore Harry Potter's realm should be grounded in a flame-retardant faith, enabling them to ride the lightning and still walk away unscathed."
Children need to steered away from people like this!!

[hotbobbie]

Note this person only used quotes from the people that fit into her religous way of thinking. These are the same people in the past that would burn people at the stake because they had been trying to find out what made people sick but this was an act against god in there sick way of thinking.

[Marcie Sexton]

Perhaps her god is a different one than I know...the one I know is loving and ever knowledgable...he has allowed for better or worse to obtain the knowledge we have...and her hell fire and damnation attitude towards any one other than her believers is one of the reasons this world is going to hell in a hand basket:Angry3:

:2c:

[Tedi]

Perhaps her god is a different one than I know...the one I know is loving and ever knowledgable...he has allowed for better or worse to obtain the knowledge we have...and her hell fire and damnation attitude towards any one other than her believers is one of the reasons this world is going to hell in a hand basket:Angry3:

:2c:

Amen

[Melinda]

Hate filled, fear mongering, right wing lunatic fringe. When you and those who agree with you are the only ones with the "true faith" everyone else is less than human and you are no longer required by common decency to treat them as people. Instead you are free to bomb, kill, lie, maim and torture in the name of God. Jesus, save me from your followers! Although I'm not one of them, I am always pleased to meet a self-avowed Christian who has actually taken the time to read the New Testament and tries to live by Jesus' teachings of selfless love. This woman is not one of them.

[Maggie Kay]

I know the type very well. They believe that they must stamp out any idea that causes them to question the steady state. Her data is decades old and she pontificated very well for her group. This person who thinks she is doing good fosters fear and hatred among her listeners. I listened once and took up the cause. All it did was make me miserable.

In the Malleus Maleficarum or "The Witch Hammer", the handbook used by the church inquisitors to deal with witches in the middle ages, the reason given as the justification for killing these women was that God would condemn Christians if they allowed witchcraft to continue. BTW, few of these poor souls were really witches, they were often homosexuals or social outcasts.

This kind of thinking is still present all these centuries later. Let this woman have ten minutes in our shoes and see how she feels. I have had countless miracles in my life yet curing me of CD/TG has not happened. Wonder why? Perhaps because God doesn't see it the way she does.

[Amanda Jane]

the only group that hates America more than Focus on the Family is Al Qaeda but I think you could come to terms with bin Ladin before James Dobson

[Lisa Golightly]

Nutcase.

[janedoe311]

But with your responses I am not so upset. She and like her are a minority. But they do have political power. So we can not ignore them. They are the anti stem cell, anti abortion, so called inteligent design people, who what to force religion and prayer in public schools. They are sneeky and have to be stopped.

[Marla S]

There always will be people like her.
It's just a sign of misusage of religion.
She my like it or not, but she shouldn't argue with an alibi, but stand behind her opinion personally. Religion was and is too often misused to treat "mis-leaded" or "unbelievers" bad or worse, or to create an atmosphere of discrimination.
In particular annyoing is her canting speach.

[Amanda Jane]

true that Janedoe, except I don't think they are sneeky, they are out front about who they are and what they are doing

and what ever happened to the idea that a paragraph had to have three sentences?

[Marla S]

But with your responses I am not so upset. She and like her are a minority. But they do have political power. So we can not ignore them. They are the anti stem cell, anti abortion, so called inteligent design people, who what to force religion and prayer in public schools. They are sneeky and have to be stopped.
We have to ignore them. Every minute you spend on arguing with them is a waste of time, because they don't listen to your arguments.
They are well organized, strategic, trained; they have a mission.
Give them an inch and they’ll take an ell. Keep an eye on them, but otherwise ignore them.

[marie354]

This goes to show just how single minded some people can be. They have obvoiusly have not done their homework very well.
A big :thumbsdn: for her.

[Dominique Melt]

Opinions are like buttholes: everybody has one.

I think you should all step back and THINK a little bit before you get your knickers in a twist. And for the record, I am a deeply religious person, and a political conservative. And I CD every chance I get. I also vote my conscience which means I can, and have, pulled the lever for Dems, Repubs, Indys and others.

No doubt this is a religious person that has no personal thought only what the Bible tells her.

That's a judgment that is in the same category as those here condemning the writer for her POV. You may disagree with her vehemently or only partially, but remember: hers is only an opinion.

... She and like her are a minority. But they do have political power. So we can not ignore them. They are the anti stem cell, anti abortion, so called inteligent design people, who what to force religion and prayer in public schools. They are sneeky and have to be stopped.

C'mon, Jane. If they had so much power, we'd know it -- they now control Congress and will most likely win the WH in '08. Can the hyperbole; nobody is forcing you or anyone else to worship ANY god.

I know the type very well. They believe that they must stamp out any idea that causes them to question the steady state. Her data is decades old and she pontificated very well for her group. This person who thinks she is doing good fosters fear and hatred among her listeners.

Kay sweetheart, she is merely stating an opinion and a conviction. She has made no remarks nor has she alluded to taking away anyone's right to CD or SRS. She has not called for legislation nor religious fatwas against anyone. She is no more dangerous than the liberals out there who think THEY know what others need better than the individual he or herself knows. And she is not demanding that we be burned at the stake. Christianity has indeed made it past that hurdle, don't you think?

Hate filled, fear mongering, right wing lunatic fringe. When you and those who agree with you are the only ones with the "true faith" everyone else is less than human and you are no longer required by common decency to treat them as people. Instead you are free to bomb, kill, lie, maim and torture in the name of God. Jesus, save me from your followers! Although I'm not one of them, I am always pleased to meet a self-avowed Christian who has actually taken the time to read the New Testament and tries to live by Jesus' teachings of selfless love. This woman is not one of them.

Again, discinskirt, you are letting your fears and paranoia run you. Please point out the hate filled invective and fear-mongering. There is none. I repeat myself: the writer is stating an opinion and this opinion comes from her convictions. Where in this article has she made a case for persecution? She is pointing out that several people who elected to have SRS are now sorry they did so. What is also obvious is that she has not gotten the reaction of those who have had SRS and are happy, which no doubt there are.

It's just a sign of misusage of religion.
She my like it or not, but she shouldn't argue with an alibi, but stand behind her opinion personally.

Marla, she IS standing by her opinion. This whole article is her opinion BASED ON HER CONVICTIONS.

At the very least, children determined to explore Harry Potter's realm should be grounded in a flame-retardant faith, enabling them to ride the lightning and still walk away unscathed."
Children need to steered away from people like this!!

Tedi, there is a place for parents to send there kids where none of these ideas will haunt them. It's called Public School.

Perhaps her god is a different one than I know...the one I know is loving and ever knowledgable...he has allowed for better or worse to obtain the knowledge we have...and her hell fire and damnation attitude towards any one other than her believers is one of the reasons this world is going to hell in a hand basket

Hotbobbie, her god, your god and my god are one in the same. What happens is that people see different things in the realm of religion -- religion is a human invention, a system for finite beings to approach the infinite. Nothing more, nothing less. Is she correct? Maybe. Do I agree with her? Not entirely, but that is my choice and my right. What I don't agree with is the group-think reactionary hostility to ideas that threaten you. Her ideas do not threaten me, because my faith in God is different from hers, as it is different from yours and anyone else's.

Flame on, my sisters. Now you can give me Hell as well.

[Marla S]

It's just a sign of misusage of religion.
She my like it or not, but she shouldn't argue with an alibi, but stand behind her opinion personally.

Marla, she IS standing by her opinion. This whole article is her opinion BASED ON HER CONVICTIONS.


As I said misuse of religion. She can share, tell her conviction. And I believe she has this conviction. No doubt about that. And it is nice (in a way) she has a conviction. But by no means, should a conviction be misused to discriminate others or to tell others how they should feel (conservative or not, religious or not). She does IMO by the choice of her words.
I.e.

Transsexuality signals a deceptively fierce disorder. Elective castration, mastectomy, hysterectomy, etc. are futile non-solutions. The cruel, permanent disfigurement of so-called gender reassignment is not the answer.
This is indoctrination (the text is full of it). She could have shown her conviction in a less manipulative way too.

[Mary L]

Wow. I think I may have read a different version than most of you. I didn't read something by a right wing nutcase at all. I read a reasonably researched commentary suggesting that perhaps sex reassignment surgery is a misguided endeavor:
In 1960, Johns Hopkins was the first U.S. medical facility involved in sex reassignment procedures. The program was discontinued in 1979 after Dr. Jon Meyer published his long-term follow-up report of adult transsexuals treated at Johns Hopkins. None of the post-operatives showed measurable improvement in their lives.

"Sex re-assignment surgery confers no objective advantage …" Meyer concluded.

Dr. Paul McHugh, chairman of the Johns Hopkins Department of Psychiatry, criticized the procedures as "the most radical therapy ever encouraged by 20th-century psychiatrists," comparing it to the discredited frontal lobotomy.You should be asking yourselves why Johns Hopkins decided to stop these surgeries. It's one of the best medical centers in the world. Is it wrong? Perhaps. But, can you prove it? Apparently, Dr. Jon Meyer demonstrated that folks who have SRS start off with serious mental health problems attributable to "gender dysphoria" and that while the specifics of the problems may change following surgery, they still have an equal level of mental health problems. If this is correct, it is important to all who are considering reassignment by surgical means. If there is another scientifically established point of view, then by all means, please tell us.

[Amanda Jane]

as it turns out Afghanistan is not the only nation with a Taliban in charge

[Kelsy]

I Think WE have to be careful of who we call nutcases!! Because her views don't match yours, you have the right to shut her down?? shame! remember one thing, the religious right is one of the most maligned groups but the're views represent, in population, a thousand times what our views represent, you have to let this slide off your back. Besides what if she's right and your wrong??? Can you tell me in no uncertain terms she's wrong???


Jennifer:straightface:

[Marla S]

Is it wrong? Perhaps. But, can you prove it?
Well, there are (http://www.symposion.com/ijt/pfaefflin/3000.htm) later follow up studies, that indicate that SRS is or could be beneficial. Could have been mentioned IMO.
Johns Hopkins is about 25 years out of business (surgery methods improved), hence no authority in this field anymore. She should have know this just by the number of years, if she feels the need to cite scientific results.

[Maggie Kay]

Dominique,
I'm not going to flame you or anyone else. It is not my way. Still, I think that the point that I was making is that these folks do think in primitive terms and while they do not openly advocate the brutality that once happened, they do instill in the "flock" a sense of grave danger. I experienced this in several churches with regard to allowing homosexuals as part of the congregation. The thinking whether deliberate or not, can lead to horrible consequences. This is what I was referring to in my post. Not all the congregation is as reasonable as the leaders. Some can get very extreme. It is sort of like the bar tender starting a fire in the movie "Chocolat" in an interpretation of the pious mayor's general dictum " We have to do something about this" . He took the conflict to the next level. Leaders that whip up emotions should have a responsibility to not let them get out of control. Unfortunately, this group does not.

Mary,

Since many thousands of SRS surgeries are done in the US every year and in some cases are paid for by insurance, I'd say that the data presented about John's Hopkins has another root cause than the medical basis for SRS. Consider the malpractice implications of a treatment that didn't work. Do you think that the practice would continue under these circumstances? I say it continues because the overwhelming evidence is that it does work. Also what was not said in her quote was that many of these people who went through could have committed suicide otherwise. It is common in untreated GD. Surely, a treatment that allows one to go on with life is valuable.

[Tedi]

Opinions are like buttholes: everybody has one.

I think you should all step back and THINK a little bit before you get your knickers in a twist. And for the record, I am a deeply religious person, and a political conservative. And I CD every chance I get. I also vote my conscience which means I can, and have, pulled the lever for Dems, Repubs, Indys and others.

Tedi, there is a place for parents to send there kids where none of these ideas will haunt them. It's called Public School.
[B]


There's no doubt in my mind, if you want to start an argument, talk about religion or politics. It seems that both have poked their ugly heads out of the muck in this thread.

First off.. Why would someone have to say they are conservative, liberal or independent if they vote or say their conscience. IMHO, partisan politics are doing nothing but tearing our government apart.

Secondly, The most intelligent kids I've ever met have been home schooled. If I had children, I would make every effort to keep them away from public schools. Substandard education is not the path to success.

And lastly, Religion is causing more problems in the world than politics. Shiites-Muslims, Protestants-Catholics where will it stop?

Will there ever be a time at which everyone will agree that peace is the answer? A time that we don't have to subscribe to a particular religion or political party?

[Country girl]

I Think WE have to be careful of who we call nutcases!! Because her views don't match yours, you have the right to shut her down?? shame! remember one thing, the religious right is one of the most maligned groups but the're views represent, in population, a thousand times what our views represent, you have to let this slide off your back. Besides what if she's right and your wrong??? Can you tell me in no uncertain terms she's wrong???


Jennifer:straightface:



:iagree: I have to say I agree with Jennifer. As one of the more accepting GG's of the CD community I feel it is important that you examine your words very carefully. I am a Christian and a conservative. However I try not to shove my beliefs down other peoples throats. People in the CD community have been called weirdo's, nutcases, abnormal, etc., for a long time. Do you like those labels? Does it get your ire up when someone says you are insane or weird or crazy? Just because you like to wear women's clothes??? I'm sure that for a lot of you, you feel the sting of someone's prejiduce very sharp. Yet isn't that exactly what y'all are doing to this woman in return? Everyone, and I mean everyone is intitled to there own opionion, that doesn't make them a "nut" or a bad person. It simply means their opinion differs from yours. Some of the statements made in this thread about this person, the taliban, etc., are very upsetting and somewhat disturbing. Take a long look in the mirror before you judge other peoples views. Just my :2c: on the matter.

Everyone chill and let's enjoy a :gh: together.
CG gg

[Bernadina]

Another reason not to read the Bible or the Koran or the Torah, etc.

[Andrea_girl]

These bible bashes live in a world of there own.

It bears no resemblance to the world I live in

[flogo920]

While I am sure the author has her biases, there is a simple but importanrt point being ignored by her and others:

Before ANY surgcal procedure can be claimed to be valid, it has to have
well studied long term followup and shown to be beneficial beyond the risks and complications.

Gender reassignment surgery is still developing- with utertus transplants, and the possibility of a functioning penis etc. There is NO LONG TERM FOLLOW-UP. Everyone participating is a pioneer, and I suspect as the technology improves, the public opinions will also change.

For now, one must look at a gender dysphoric patient and ask-what is in the patients BEST interest. Such a patient must be educated to the available therapies (psychiological, psychiatric,endocrine and surgical) with their risks,
potential side effects, and complications and then LET THE PATIENT MAKE THEIR CHOICE.

I think there is a place for it, and that place will be better defined as the terchnology progresses and there are more people with long term follow up to study.

Flo

[Marla S]

Another reason not to read the Bible or the Koran or the Torah, etc.
No, no. It's worth reading, and nothing against religious people in principle.
It becomes tricky and problematic if the text is used by humans to manipulate and indoctrinate humans. An this is done all too easy, like countless examples in the past and present show.

[janedoe311]

I never expected a response like this.
I am now sorry I put this thread and link up.

For the record, I am not religious and do not believe in God. I call myself a “free thinker”, because no one or book, tells me what to think and believe. I am sure many will disagree with that but think of this do you believe the way your parents do, or you community or the people you hang out with?

Do you think that most Muslims, Buddhists, Christians and Jews had a choice when they were kids when the their parent’s forced their religion forced down their throats? Not likley! So why do they all condemn others for not believing the way the do, when most had no choice?

Yes, there are people that convert, so you can call them free thinkers, but most people in the world believe as their parents and or community.

I have, can and will change my feelings but do not take one book and base my beliefs on it.

[Kelsy]

These bible bashes live in a world of there own.

It bears no resemblance to the world I live in


So do CD"S

Jennifer

[Salina]

Let me start by saying I'm a Christian, but strive to be a non-judgemental Christian. That is the example Jesus set for me. I have never met a transsexual person, haven't done any research, and cannot relate to wanting to change my gender completely. I find it impossible to judge a person who feels they were born the wrong gender. I read the article a couple times and the thing she said that bothers me most was this "Could the Creator have flubbed it?"
Many Christians and religious folks like to say God doesn't make mistakes and use this "logic" in support of arguements like this. Maybe I'm being simplistic here, but why don't the people who use this logic use it for babies born with heart defects that are operated on, conjoined children who get seperated by surgery, children born with cleft pallettes....any birth defect that can be corrected or helped through surgery? One of my children was brought into the world more than 2 months early, she had stopped growing in the womb, and was surgically removed. Did God intend for her to be stillborn? All of our Christian friends and family prayed for the doctors to succeed to bring her safely into the world. "Could the Creator have flubbed it" can cover a vast amount of conditions, yet the finger pointing, holier than thou "Christians" pick only a select few things to use this faulty logic to support their narrow point of view.

[Country girl]

I never expected a response like this.
I am now sorry I put this thread and link up.

For the record, I am not religious and do not believe in God. I call myself a “free thinker”, because no one or book, tells me what to think and believe. I am sure many will disagree with that but think of this do you believe the way your parents do, or you community or the people you hang out with?

Do you think that most Muslims, Buddhists, Christians and Jews had a choice when they were kids when the their parent’s forced their religion forced down their throats? Not likley! So why do they all condemn others for not believing the way the do, when most had no choice?

Yes, there are people that convert, so you can call them free thinkers, but most people in the world believe as their parents and or community.

I have, can and will change my feelings but do not take one book and base my beliefs on it.


No Jane Doe, The fact is that over half of all Christians did NOT grow up in a religious home of any sort. Their parents were not believer's and they found God through others. Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.

CG gg

[Kelsy]

Let me start by saying I'm a Christian, but strive to be a non-judgemental Christian. That is the example Jesus set for me. I have never met a transsexual person, haven't done any research, and cannot relate to wanting to change my gender completely. I find it impossible to judge a person who feels they were born the wrong gender. I read the article a couple times and the thing she said that bothers me most was this "Could the Creator have flubbed it?"
Many Christians and religious folks like to say God doesn't make mistakes and use this "logic" in support of arguements like this. Maybe I'm being simplistic here, but why don't the people who use this logic use it for babies born with heart defects that are operated on, conjoined children who get seperated by surgery, children born with cleft pallettes....any birth defect that can be corrected or helped through surgery? One of my children was brought into the world more than 2 months early, she had stopped growing in the womb, and was surgically removed. Did God intend for her to be stillborn? All of our Christian friends and family prayed for the doctors to succeed to bring her safely into the world. "Could the Creator have flubbed it" can cover a vast amount of conditions, yet the finger pointing, holier than thou "Christians" pick only a select few things to use this faulty logic to support their narrow point of view.

Maybe Salina God has a greater purpose for those who are born with defects?
maybe we are all part of that kind of senario. Maybe everything we see is working together in a perfect master plan. consider that perhaps!

Jennifer

[Kimberley]

The following is the letter I sent to this.... call her what you will.


Dear Ms. Makkai,
I read this article The sex-change charade. Posted: January 11, 2003 with absolute horror.

As a journalist you owe it to yourself and your readers to thoroughly investigate your subject before presenting opinion. Clearly this was not done. If you had investigated you would have found solid scientific and psychological evidence that totally and irrefutably counters your arguments so as to make them moot.

Your opinions are based on conservative thought, not on evidence and as such this sort of writing should be stated as an op-ed not presented as a fact based writing. You have twisted truth through omission of fact and indeed ignored fact to support your own misguided arguments.

Shame on you!

Sincerely,
Kimberley.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Country girl]

IMHO, I don't think this thread is doing anything but stirring up a lot of anger. I personally believe that it is way past time for one of our moderators to shut it down!! So what's the hold up?????

CG gg

[Kimberley]

In my view, as I said in my letter, it is not about her opinions, it is about BAD journalism. That should be the subject IMHO.

Kimberley

[jamie_44]

I just want to say that I am a Christian and I am considering transitioning. I know that I have been different since I was young (possibly born with it?).
Everyone has an opinion and I see no reason to get upset. I was taught to believe Jesus is my savior and the next one is big, Love Everyone!

[RobertaFermina]

I am impressed by her lack of credentials, and lack of balance.

In the interest of balance:
Positive Impact for Brazilian SRS Follow-Up Study
http://www.springerlink.com/content/7561u04um969r330/

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Tedi]

Like I said earlier.. if you want to start an argument, talk about religion or politics.

[janedoe311]

IMHO, I don't think this thread is doing anything but stirring up a lot of anger. I personally believe that it is way past time for one of our moderators to shut it down!! So what's the hold up?????

CG gg

and I started it, never thought it would come to this.

Please no Drama on Crossdressers.com

[Amanda Jane]

I believe that this is, at its most central crux, the wheel and the rack upon which Western Civilization will either be broken or make anew. As The Poet say:

Oh it's rush hour now,
On the wheel and the plow,
And the sun is going down
Upon the sacred cow.

In one of the most viewed essays on the net, Penn Jillette wrote in far better language that I could ever master why he does not believe in god. You can find that essay here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

For myself I had to come to grips with how it could be possible that one group could deny the existence of thousands of other gods created by other religions but find it outrageous when anyone might question the existence of their god. At the same time, slamming anyone who would believe in any sort of polytheism, yet hold true the existence of a trinity. How a loving god would tollerate pain, suffering and hate. How people could belive that an angel saved them from a drunk driving wreck but somehow was absent from the Holocaust.

We have looked into the deepest recesses of space with Hubbell and Chandra and found nothing remotely resembling the cosmos that the bronze age nomads who created this faith system envisioned. We have found a universe billions of years old, or..the earth, its life forms, and the rest of the universe were created by God during a six day, 144 hour, interval, fewer than 10,000 years ago. Can't have that both ways.

We are reaching a point where both the Christian religion and science and technology can not continue to exist side by side. The gap between what each hold to be true has grown vast.

Abraham Lincoln once said:
"A house divided against itself cannot stand." I believe this government cannot endure permanently half salve and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved--I do not expect the house to fall--but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing, or all the other."

I expect he is right. Just substitute religion and science for free and slave and you have the most basic conflict in the world, one that must end one way or the other.

[Marcie Sexton]

I'm not saying she is a hate filled religious nut...close, but that only counts in horse shoes and hand gernades...

First J. H. M.C. is or was getting a great deal of funding from the federal goverment, need I say more...

Second, and I think the most important issue, is she would have you believe that GOD will fry us in oil for being like we are...he seen fit to allow/give us the knowledge we have...he also gave us a mind to think with...ask Adam & Eve...for better or worse he gave us this knowledge to use. If what she says is correct then all those that may have been helped by transplant donors who may have been in their eyes transgressors, then by proxy the person whose life was saved/changed is in dire need of her GOD's saving grace...Personally my GOD listens to my heart, not my words, right or wrong, he carries the saving grace...but does not weld it like a sword, he merely offers, this woman welds the religious right exactly like a sword...

I will and still stand by my eariler statement...People like her and her over zealous religious attitudes is the reason the world is going to hell in a hand basket...

I just wonder if looked at close enough if she could pass the test of the testiment..."let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" but then again I couldn't see the palms of her hands, maybe there are holes in them !!!

[GypsyKaren]

I think this has been discussed enough and is drifting off topic, so I'm closing it.