stuck

[anon]

Despite reflection and repeated posts (and subsequent reassurance) on the subject, I can't seem to extricate myself from my fear of reprisal, in a personal and/or career setting, from being outed. I can at times reach a steady-state in which I am assured that my decision to underdress (just panties) is justified and reasonable, with minimal risk of exposure and, in case of the latter, unlikely to affect my situation much in any given context. However, as much as I believe in the validity of these claims, I inevitably slip into self-doubt and despair whenever I feel the slightest urge to question said beliefs. This cycle has become so persistent that I feel compelled to catalog it on this forum in hopes of ending it. I realize that the replies I get will be unrepresentative at best and misleading at worst, but then again I can't go around asking the world for their opinion. Please advise...thanks so much for your help and patience.

-matt

[Samantha Jane Foster]

I'm not sure, Matt, what specific help you need but your prose style requires no assistance-- very impressive! I'm not really one to give advice because I would like to be remembered, after I die, as the one who invented the process by which lemonade is converted back into lemons. In other words, I'm not one to say the glass is half empty, or half full, but completely empty, dirty, and cracked. Being constantly upbeat is almost as bad as being constantly beat up. I try to embrace despair and hopelessness, while not making it a personal thing, only realizing that to agonize over the need to organize, to find the solution to every problem, is far more tedious than simply accepting-- well, not accepting so much as realistically observing-- the uncertainty, the chaos that is existence.

[Dominique Melt]

Well, Anon,

I do not know the nature of your work or where you do it. Obviously, you feel that it is not a place that would accept your CDing. I think many of here have struggled with the same issue, but from my own experience, if I was working in a particular place [and I've worked in many, many places] that seemed staffed by open-minded, arty people I'd sometimes consider it. But most places I've worked, it would be in bad taste or inappropriate to come en femme.

What do you do, if you don't mind my asking?

[Maggie Kay]

Eventually, the discomfort of not dressing can become worse than the fear of exposure. Underdressing is rampant. Consider all the 40B bras and up available. Seriously, most are probably worn by guys. Estimates are that 1 in 10 is a CRer at some level.
We all have to deal with ignorant discrimination.The worst part is when we agree at some level with "them" and then join in opposing ourselves. This is the first battleground. You have to decide if what you want is acceptable to you. CD'ing has many positive benefits and it is "they" that have the problem with it. Be at peace with yourself and follow your conscience.

[anon]

Dominique,

I am a college student right now but I plan to enter the financial services industry (including consulting and venture capital, entrepreneurialism) when I graduate. In any case, I want to work in a services industry.

I have noticed that some institutions (JP Morgan, for instance) are including "gender identity and expression" in their discrimination clauses but I am a realist and therefore a skeptic when it comes to such promises.

I agree with all the posts so far in that I believe in adhering to an internal logic that is independent of society's clutches, something to the tune of "if it doesn't harm others, and is reasonable to you, then its fine" but cannot seem to execute it in practice.

matt

[Dominique Melt]

Anon,

I understand. If the office were a place where only those in the office are your daily contacts, then perhaps you might have a better chance at being accepted and absorbed. If you have to deal with the public, well, you have to deal with the public.
But all of this is really a known quantity. Things will only change as long as we force change, and sometimes change comes over long periods of time. Will things change? I cannot say. But they actually have. This Forum was not available even ten years ago. At this stage, we are all discovering how many of are really and truly out here and that we mostly want the same thing: to be free and accepted, like the Masons. The ball is beginning to roll and it will pick up momentum. We must be patient, assertive and honest.

[anon]

Dominique, thanks for your replies, but i think you misunderstood: my fear was over being caught wearing undies, not any overt feminine garment or full femme. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Dominique Melt]

No, Anon,

It seems I misread. Hmmm, I have worn all sorts of things under jeans, overalls, and suits. I was as discreet as possible, but with one or two colleagues I would indulge in a bit of innuendo, and that stuff would get pretty hot at times. I just never wanted to go the distance, if you catch my drift.
I can't tell you to stop feeling what you feel as that would be in poor taste on my part and terribly insensitive. I would tell you go with your gut instincts and not to worry too much. Things in the world are changing fast and furious, and I doubt you are in any real danger.

When I have thought about what my reaction would be to being either exposed or ridiculed I can only come up with this: I would ask if they had something better?

[Marcie Sexton]

You speak of fear of being caught, you should work in my field...Even though the gg's are now entering my field of work, its still considered a man's place...and bless their corporate heart:rolleyes: they constantly preachon diversity, in the race issue they are very diverse, however there are so many ways that diversity should be considered...ours cd/tg/ts are only the tip of the ice burg...

...but hang in there I gotta believ that soon or later, < probably later :rolleyes: > they < the corporate world >will see us as we really are...
normal, productive employees who are just a wee bit different..."were special"

[Emily Ann Brown]

I could wax poetic and long all day as I sit here in my office in panties, hose, and cami....but it all comes down to if you REALLY want to have something on either at work or at home or driving across town you have to overcome the paranoia of discovery. It was what in part drove my wife crazy...."you will have a heart attack and a paramedic will discover you have on panties!" Well duh huh......that argument leads to never dress in panties at all because you might get hit in your bedroom by a plane falling out of the sky and be outted. I just finally decided to do what made me happy and worry about the "problems" resulting from accidental discovery if/when they happen.


Emily Ann

[Casey Morgan]

Matt, wearing women's undies is seen as a harmless fetish in many circles. Maybe that's the key here for you, the ready lie. You can wear the undies for your own reasons but if you get "caught" you can claim that it's just a fetish.

The other thing to consider is people often work things way out of proportion. Have you seen that commercial where the people think everybody knows about their bladder problems? They think everybody sees just how often they go to the bathroom, when in fact many people are probably quite oblivious.

Likewise, you're concerned that you'll get caught wearing panties. Quick, what underwear do your professors wear? I'll bet you have no idea. People don't normally go around showing off their underwear. Unless you carefully orchestrate things so that people can get a glimpse, nobody will know what you're wearing. I've been wearing women's underwear for 10 months now (with the exception of a week or two once) and nobody at work or at home has had reason or the opportunity to see what I'm wearing.

Take a deep breath and go for it.

[anon]

Casey, I remember thinking of that excuse a while ago. Somehow it was lost amid the confusion but I will remind myself of it in future episodes--great stuff. Also, thanks a lot to everyone else for their solid advice and patience.

-matt

[melissaK]

I have noticed that some institutions (JP Morgan, for instance) are including "gender identity and expression" in their discrimination clauses but I am a realist and therefore a skeptic when it comes to such promises.

Yea. Glass ceilings . . . . . . . .

My work day world is full of business professionals/executives. Plenty of neanderthals with the clout to enforce the glass ceilings in their world. Want to be woman enough to challenge the "unwritten rules" that still linger and run many of these companies, you'd better play golf like Michelle Wie and know your way around Tel Aviv like Golda Meir . . . .

OK, that's the dark side of business life . . . now let's flip the coin.

You know I'm exxagerating the presence of the "unwritten rules." As a character in an old M*A*S*H* episode once said "Korea big country; must be better job someplace." America is freaking huge. There are plenty of exceptions, and plenty of freedom to make a new one. One TS forum member Pennyanne, has made it into the board rooms after transitioning so there are success stories. Some will hire you because you deliver and that's what matters to them. It helps a LOT if you are over-credentialed, a work a holic, and have non-fungible niche market skills. Funny, those traits help straight folks too.

So, if you want career options to be "the reason" to stop you from cding and enjoying that part of yourself, you can let them. If you don't want to, they won't stop you.

I posted a kinda long self anaylsis on another thread this morning where I recounted some of my own 15 year effort to break out of a cyclical reasoning pattern similar to what you describe. It might be harsh, but you could summarize me as having traded career success for mental health. http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=713502#post713502 (over in TS forum under "I need to vent"). On another thread some one once asked "if I knew then (20's) what I know now (50's)?" I replied I'd take the mental health - - - I've started working on breaking my past patterns for reasons that are personal to me.

Will your life unfold with never ending TG issues like mine did? Who knows. I sure don't. But, I suspect if you are this cyclical now, it isn't ever going to go away for you. Will it worsen? Odds are, at times it will. Can you cope :D ,or will it eat your soul? :devil:

Every girl on this board has lived a different variation on the common theme. We are all right; we are all wrong.

Your life, your path, your choices. Thanks for asking for our :2c: .

Hugs,
'lissa

[Karren H]

Well right away your putting too much though and consternation into this!! I mean you can go out and purchase mens briefs made from the same material as womens and the only difference is the label and what department you bought it in!! And take into the fact that besides appearently you, no one really cares what kind of underwear you like to wear!! I know I don't!! Lol.

I actually wear my male cotton low rise briefs when I'm out enfemme!! You think any of the women around me shopping care that I'm wearing male panties!!! Hehehe

So come on!!! Snap out of it!!! If your going to get this upset over lingerie I can't wait to hear how you react to fully dressing!!! :D.

Maybe its time to find another hobby??? Something more male oriented!!!

Love Karren

[melissaK]

Well right away your putting too much though and consternation into this!! . . . Love Karren

You know Anon, the lady in the gorgeous purple dress sitting on the wall makes a lot of sense . . . I could care less what panties she's wearing, but I'd love to know where she found that dress. Karen, is it new, or just an ol thang you threw on? Envy either way. :heehee:

hugs,
'lissa

[Karren H]

You know Anon, the lady in the gorgeous purple dress sitting on the wall makes a lot of sense . . . I could care less what panties she's wearing, but I'd love to know where she found that dress. Karen, is it new, or just an ol thang you threw on? Envy either way. :heehee:

hugs,
'lissa

awwwwww your too sweet!!! And it's oldish....over a year.... and It was from Kohl's I think..

Karren

[StacyCD]

Even if you had identical briefs made from the same material with one having a women's label and the other having a men's label, I think most CDs would 'prefer' the one with the women's label. Stange yes, but true! It seems to me that we want to wear what is 'forbidden.' However, we may not always want others to know that we're wearing the one with the women's label. If you are worried about being 'outed' wear the ones with the men's label and just 'know' that they are the same as the ones with the women's label.

[Melinda]

Ah yes, the fabulous Ms Hutton is an inspiration to us all! Beautiful, confident, feminine and can check a large man right through the boards without mussing her Victoria Secret panties. My heroine!

Matt, her point is well taken too. Nobody is going to find out what kind of underwear you're wearing unless you intentionally show them. Even standing next to you at a urinal guys don't look over. If they do then they've got as many secrets to hide as you do!

As far as your self-doubt and despair are concerned I recommend you continue to read this forum. You will find a large community of supportive folks whose grace, wit and confidence will help you discover that crossdressing can be a source of joy. Do not despair, you are not alone!

[Brenda Love]

whenever I'm out wearing panties under my drab clothes I use to worry "what if I get into a car accident and have to be taken to a hospital"........I can hear the doctor's words now" mam here are your husbands clothes and his um....panties":eek: :eek: :eek: i try not to worry about it to much now and don't really care what strangers in public think!:p
I have seen many women noticing my panty line or bra strap line and they just smile and giggle a little:heehee: so be it!!!I am still afraid of my friends and family finding out I'm a CD and I always will be!!!:(

hugs
Brenda

[RobertaFermina]

:2c: Wild Idea Warning!!!!
This is my intuitive response, entirely from the Hip, and it may be completely wrong. If it feels true for you, then it was a lucky shot.
-------------------

Matt you said it all.
You have thought it through reasonably, and still you are anxious.
You have an unreasoned anxiety - :eek: a paranoia.

If I am not comfortable and fully surrendered to whatever may come in the way of personality change, lifestyle, gender, or sexuality due to my CDing, that discomfort and anxiety is wholly about me, and within me. If it gets kinda nutty inside, :Pullhair: "unbearably so", I can project/banish the "threat" from the inside :dom: to the outside.

The problem on the "outside" is not about me and my choices, and the scary fluidity in my identity, but about how the world will react, and consequence me, and reject my identity should I be (however unlikely) discovered.

The problem on the outside drives my mind nuts :bonk: and shifts my focus there. It leaves my guts and emotions a bit out-of-focus and so :straightface: more bearable.

So my theory is that the tempest is on the inside, and may be about self-acceptance. Not on the outside, or the potential for discovery.

Thats my :2c:,

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[RobertaFermina]

Oh, and before anyone is moved to write...YES...this is true for me. What may come as I continue this journey where it leads me - scares me!

Good thing there is lots of :c9: fun along the way.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[melissaK]

I use to worry "what if I get into a car accident and have to be taken to a hospital"........

You know this actually happened to me once. Strapped to a back board, they cut my shirt off and were thinking about the jeans under which were some pretty purple lace hi cuts, as I mumbled through the chin tie - "my vo vack is vine, my vo vack is vine." They stopped short of having to out me though. And it wouldn't have mattered, by brother in law was on the back board on the gurney next to me and he's one of like 3 people who know. His sister tells him everything! :heehee:

I liked Roberta's comments.

More hugs
'lissa

[marie354]

I asked my SO the other night... If I had a heart attack, would you change my clothes before the EMT's arrive? And she said that there probabally wouldn't be enough time as being a nurse, she had seen it all before and she'd would be busy giving me CPR or whatever was needed to keep me alive until they arrived.
Well I guess I'll never go out the way I came in. Nobody dies naked, do they?

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it much if someone noticed the color of your panties while in the restroom... If they are looking, there must be a reason other what color they are.
:hugs:

[susie evans]

i think it has been over thought and the scope of work is to complicated we need to rethink and re bid the prodject
karren she needs the basic manuel and we can start over
:2c:

susie

[Jodie_Lynn]

I realize that the replies I get will be unrepresentative at best and misleading at worst, but then again I can't go around asking the world for their opinion. Please advise...thanks so much for your help and patience.

-matt


Sooooo, you want advice, or not?

The members here can blow sunshine & reassurance up your skirt until the cows come home, but only YOU know what is right for you.

Afraid of getting "caught"? Simple answer: Don't crossdress.

Can't resist the feelings of slinky lingerie? Then dress to the level of your comfort zone.

No one, but NO ONE can guarantee that you won't be found out. If the thought of being exposed is that disquieting to you, then find a way to stop doing what causes you anxiety.

[NylonMan]

I really don't know what the problem is. You don't go pulling your pants down at work do you? You don't tuck your shirt in under your panties do you? Well you won't get caught then. I have been wearing Panties and pantyhose to work for years now and I have not been caught. Sure, there are some things you have to make sure you do, but that is it.

Besides the things that I mentioned above, you have to wear dress socks over your pantyhose if you have meetings where you are going to cross your legs and expose your ankles. But for panties, just make sure your shirt is tucked over your panties, and your fly is always closed.