Slowly it becomes weird.

[Marla S]

The longer I dress (24/7 since several months), the more I not only accept my CDing, but also what would be called "male self". Meaning the "be/be-like a woman wish" seems to diminish. Looks like what is, per defintion, CDing slowly becomes just an extension of my identity as a GM, rather than feeling to be transgendered in the meaning of the word.

Anybody having similar experiences or is this just a phase ?

[Deanna2]

Wearing femme gear has become a normal practice, even if it is only panties, pantyhose and camisole under drab. Wearing a skirt around home during the day is also just normal attire. I don't even think of it as CDing - merely wearing my clothes.

[Alyla]

Marla,

I feel that my crossdressing is just that, an extension of myself. I don't go out in public at this time. Maybe someday. It is just one of the many facets of the gem. But yes I do feel, "CDing slowly becomes just an extension of my identity as a GM," and "Wearing a skirt around home during the day is also just normal attire. I don't even think of it as CDing - merely wearing my clothes.", very much the same as the quotes indicate.

Alyla

[Casey Morgan]

I seem to be doing things backwards. I've just naturally concentrated more on the internal than the external. That's probably a product of my introspective nature. But even though I'm coming at it from the "opposite end" as it were I think I understand what you're saying.

I am transgendered in that I identify as neither male nor female. As I have been embracing the dual aspects of my nature the desire to be or be like a woman has diminished. It has been replaced by a desire to be me. CDing does not define me, it is simply another aspect of who I am. I am not transgendered because I CD, I am transgendered and I CD. CDing is just another layer in the lasagne of my life.

[Peggy55]

Marla,

I feel that my crossdressing is just that, an extension of myself. I don't go out in public at this time. Maybe someday. It is just one of the many facets of the gem. But yes I do feel, "CDing slowly becomes just an extension of my identity as a GM," and "Wearing a skirt around home during the day is also just normal attire. I don't even think of it as CDing - merely wearing my clothes.", very much the same as the quotes indicate.

Alyla

Alyla you hit the nail on the head for me! Ditto here.

Peggy

[ubokvt]

Like many post the longer and more often I dress the more "normal" everyday it seems, don't even notice some of it at times. The desire to dress is less intense but it is calmer and a little more constant the emotional the integration of my man self and wanting to feel like a woman well. I find myself moving more towards casy's point of view


I am transgendered in that I identify as neither male nor female. As I have been embracing the dual aspects of my nature the desire to be or be like a woman has diminished. It has been replaced by a desire to be me. CDing does not define me, it is simply another aspect of who I am. I am not transgendered because I CD, I am transgendered and I CD. CDing is just another layer in the lasagne of my life.

I want to express both sides, being a woman, or a man and fallowing societies rules denies you or constrains you to behave a certian way and I being the hedonist I am want it all. I want to be a complete person and express the duality that is there.

[Penny]

For the past month, except for a few days, I have appeared mosty feminine.
I have always known that crossdressing was an extention of the GM me. I have always had the need to feel pretty. This why is dress. I know who I am and what I like, A guy who likes to smell, touch, taste, hear and see pretty because it makes me feel pretty. It may be unusual but not wrong. I can live with it and do "pretty well". It is not the end all, be all, it just is!

:hugs:

[melissaK]

Gee Marla, I've never dressed 24/7 so I'm not sure I have similar enough experiences to comment on your observations.

Some 15 years ago I lived alone and I cded regularly at home for hours on end over the weekends, and evenings. I soon tired of the primping, the crazy make-up, the breast forms and wig adjustments, and the stress over trying to pass the judgments of the world outside my door.

So, I'd just come home and change from work clothes into casual comfy clothes - womens casual comfy clothes. There was Just normal routine activities - cook dinner, do laundry, watch some TV, phone calls to friends, read, etc. After a month or so, cding was a "I don't really even notice" type of event and the girl clothes were a natural part of me. Inside I was perhaps the calmest I have ever been in dealing with cding issues - Is that sort of what you're describing?

Here I go self-analyzing myself again, you have me realizing that that comfort level misled me. A short version would be that because my cding anxieites were so low, I thought I had fully accepted myself and it really wasn't such a big deal. Then I moved in with my wife and kids and began that slippery slide into the darkest depths of the closet. . . .

This last weekend I had the house to myself and for the first time in a good dozen years I spent the day in a flowery pleated peasant dress and danskin top, doing nothing but hobbies. Took all of about 15 minutes to forget I had the dress on; the old comfortable feeling of "not even noticing" returned.

Thanks for the thought provoking thread.

Hugs,
'lissa

[Kate Simmons]

I kind of know what you mean Marla. I just feel that this is my normal self anymore, no matter what I wear. In my mind, I'm just Salandra, plain and simple. I used to think it was a big goal to strive for to look like a woman. Now, it just seems to be a matter of consequence. I can be a "man" or "woman" whenever I want, so to me it's all about self perception as a person with not that much regard to gender either way.:happy:

[Satrana]

Yup it seems pretty much natural that once you crossdress regularly and without prejudice from others, your dressing and perception of oneself becomes normalized. The idea that your femme self is somehow seperate from your male self no longer makes sense and you integrate your transgendered feelings into your everyday persona.

This results in losing the special excitment you used to experience when you could only snatch a few hours here and there to crossdress and you felt you were really were transformed into a female.

You end up realising that you are just you - a genetic male who wants to express feminine qualitities and is no longer concerned about gender conventions. This brings you to a state of crossdressing nirvana of inner peace and contentment. The crossdressing experience no longer seems mystical and you end up removing the word "cross" from crossdressing and just dress as you feel is correct. You realise that you have a natural right to express whatever combination of masculine and feminine that fits your personality and not to do so seems silly.

[Emma L.]

I am transgendered in that I identify as neither male nor female. As I have been embracing the dual aspects of my nature the desire to be or be like a woman has diminished. It has been replaced by a desire to be me. CDing does not define me, it is simply another aspect of who I am. I am not transgendered because I CD, I am transgendered and I CD. CDing is just another layer in the lasagne of my life.

this is exactly how i have come to feel. it is just another extension of yourself.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

You end up realising that you are just you - a genetic male who wants to express feminine qualitities and is no longer concerned about gender conventions.... The crossdressing experience no longer seems mystical and you end up removing the word "cross" from crossdressing and just dress as you feel is correct. You realise that you have a natural right to express whatever combination of masculine and feminine that fits your personality and not to do so seems silly.

Yeah, that's pretty much been my experience.

I personally lean toward alternating between presenting as a man or a woman rather than blending (underdressing doesn't hold any real appeal to me), but the sense that it's just me is similar. YMMV.

[kerrianna]

I've been home alone the last couple of days and have remained dressed pretty much the whole time at home. The only time I really thought about it was when I spilled something on my new sweater and skirt. I realized at one point that I had told someone to come pick something up and I was still dressed, not even thinking about it.

The other thing I've been doing is mixing the drab and dressy. Right now I have my skirt and blouse on, but was so cold I threw my male bulky sweater on over my thinner pretty sweater. And I've got me thick wool work socks on over my pretty little chenille socks. It just seems natural to work it that way.

[Joy Carter]

Such good posts here I just can't add any more to it. I just know I don't feel weired any more. I love myself.:D And isn't that what life is all about +?

[Kelsy]

I seem to be doing things backwards. I've just naturally concentrated more on the internal than the external. That's probably a product of my introspective nature.

It seems the more time spent in my female mode the more I feel comfortable in it. I remember first venturing out with panties on and being so aware, even distracted by it but that fades and becames assimilated into the trangendered persona as with all aspects of CDing

Casey - Do you think that a strong introspective nature might be a common trait of CDers. if you read all of these posts it seems everyone is very self aware. I'm thinking it looks like we are very self absorbed or we are caught in this quest for understanding who we really are!

Jennifer:happy:

[Raychel]

I know exactly what you mean Marla. I only get to dress sometimes, Not 24/7, and when I do get to dress it is only dressing, No makeup or wig. But the more I dress the more naatural it feels. The more I accept myself. I have no desire to be a woman. I just like to dress in womens clothes. They are just more comfortable to me.

[Marla S]

I seem to be doing things backwards. I've just naturally concentrated more on the internal than the external. That's probably a product of my introspective nature. But even though I'm coming at it from the "opposite end" as it were I think I understand what you're saying.

I am transgendered in that I identify as neither male nor female. As I have been embracing the dual aspects of my nature the desire to be or be like a woman has diminished. It has been replaced by a desire to be me. CDing does not define me, it is simply another aspect of who I am. I am not transgendered because I CD, I am transgendered and I CD. CDing is just another layer in the lasagne of my life.
Maybe it is just a different definition.
The core of it is certainly feeling like ME. But because humans hardly can stop to ask questions, it starts over with "What is this ME ?"
There are only two choices: man or woman. There just isn't more.
(You can see it here on the forum. Almost all try more or less desperate to leave the one and become the other. Most even shuttle between the modes. There isn't really a TG-spectrum if it comes to appearence, despite the often mentioned gray shades. Hard to find this gray shades approach wise.)
Man ?
As GM I certainly have a lot in common with them. Figure, hormone status, sozialisation etc. Nevertheless I most always felt not to fit in there very well and as hard as I tried I never was able to fully adopt the male mannerism or enjoy it.
Woman ?
I don't even know what it feels like or should feel like to be a woman (I only can guess. Doesn't feel typical male, hence it has to be female ?). I know how they look like, I can observe how they behave, how they dress. I can try to copy them and live a touch of womenhood this way, but this always will be mixed with the effects that being a GM come along with. So, its not the "real thing" too.
Because there is only man or woman, does it mean if you are not the prototypical man you are automatically a woman or have to be one, or that you are neither the one nor the other ?
Right now I have to answer the question with: No.
The lack of "manlyness" isn't enough to qualify me as woman. Neihter by mannerism nor by appearence.
Hence right now I see myself in the meaning of the word to be in no-man's land, but not really in woman's land.
No-men's land is a widly non-cultivated territory on the male side of life. In order to cultivate it it needs some imported "goods" from women's land, because men's land doesn't offer these "goods". Hence I see myself not transgendered in the way to alter my gender (which is male, I'd say), but rather by the imported "goods" and cultural aspects that come along with.
In this sense I rather extend the male side than to jump to the female side.
The surprising part for me is that I learn to even profit from my not so loved male aspects this way, which I would have to deny by jumping to women's land.
Baseline: Not to fit in the male norms, doesn't make me a female, but leaves me essentially male. To become ME I have to extend the male norms, but can leave out some female ones. Not all too easy, because the book "Male" and the book "Female" are already written and common knowledge. But what I need to become ME is isn't written in there. I'd need a supplement to "Male", not written yet (very view "papers" only), hence I have to explore it myself.

[Tina Dixon]

Well I don't get that chance to ever dress 24/7, but I know when I get to dress a lot, like four or five times a week, I don't feel natural at all, I fell confused on who I am and were will this take me, I even got some old posts out there explaining it, but thats how I feel.

[bgirl]

Well I don't get that chance to ever dress 24/7, but I know when I get to dress a lot, like four or five times a week, I don't feel natural at all, I fell confused on who I am and were will this take me, I even got some old posts out there explaining it, but thats how I feel.

That sounds familiar. I have periods of confusion as well.But that is an improvement! I used to have a love/hate/binge/purge/depressed/elated cycle going on. Now that I am trying to accept myself and just be who I am, that painful cycle has been replaced by periodic confusion. I can deal with that. I know that if I can avoid denial and not run from myself, I will eventually let myself be who I am. Thats the confusing part, I don't know who I am, but I intend to find out! Beth

[Leslie16]

The longer I dress (24/7 since several months), the more I not only accept my CDing, but also what would be called "male self". Meaning the "be/be-like a woman wish" seems to diminish. Looks like what is, per defintion, CDing slowly becomes just an extension of my identity as a GM, rather than feeling to be transgendered in the meaning of the word.

Anybody having similar experiences or is this just a phase ?

very similar. When I've been out and people call me "Leslie" it seems so natural -- its not fake. She seems very real as you say.

[Casey Morgan]

Jennifer - I agree, we seem to be a rather introspective community. Perhaps introspective wasn't the word I was going for there. So if I can ask you, what would be a good word or phrase for that?

Marla - The crux of it for me is there isn't just man or woman. That was the first thing I had to let go of in order to discover who I truly am. Just as surely as transwomen know they're women and transmen know they're men, I know I'm not a man or a woman. For many years I struggled with the fact that my existance contradicts the belief that there are only men and women. It was only after I joined this site and came across the idea of "something else" that I realized that if the data (i.e. me) doesn't fit the theory (i.e. there are only men and women) then the theory is wrong and needs to be altered. Obviously, if I'm wrong about who I am then the original theory isn't necessarily wrong.

I see myself in a land that is similar to both man's land and woman's land but is neither one, being a place of its own. It's sort of like how a liquid has properties of both solids and gasses but is a state of matter unto itself. There is/was an excellent document named Welcome To Nowhere that I downloaded from Donna's Hideout (http://cydathria.com/ms_donna/main.html) that really helped me to see this other space, but I can't find it now. There are some great pages on that site though that explain it very well. (MsDonna, if you're reading this is that document still there or am I just blind this morning?)

In my thinking, you don't have to be a prototypical man to be a man. Whether society likes it or accepts it there are many valid ways to be a man. However, none of those ways are me. None of the valid ways of being a woman is me either. But I know I am something. Therefore what I must be is "something else".

Rather than shuttle between male and female mode I am in a mixed mode. Quite frankly, mixed mode people are there but not often seen. It seems that many who don't see us are simply shuttling us to the nearest convenient identity that conforms to the notion that there are only men and women. We are recast either as very dense gasses or rather incohesive solids. And although I haven't really yet begun to dress in "grey mode" I am very aware that when I do so I will very likely be seen as a flamboyant gay man. So there may be more grey dressers than we realize.

I know I probably haven't covered everything I wanted to but hopefully I've covered most of the main points you made. I've rather enjoyed this. I think the T* community could do with more discussions like these.

[Marla S]

Deanna2, Alyla, Casey, Peggy55, ubokvt, Penny, melissaK, Salandra, Satrana, Emma. Marlena, kerrianna, Joy, Jennifer, Raychel, Tina, bgirl, leslie.
First off ladies, a big THANK YOU for your posts. Another kick for insight.
Sorry that I can’t reply to everyone, though I like to (time you know.)

Probably my question and self-observation circles about being/becoming enrooted again.
As TG-folks we are somehow uprooted, in not being “typical man” or “typical woman”.
In early stages some try to enroot themselves in the man’s world, by doing typical (over)male things, some others seem to try to enroot themselves in the women’s world by (sometimes desperately) seeking to become or look like a woman.
We become somewhat enrooted again joining the TG-community, either this forum or some groups.
That is essential IMO to become accepting. Nevertheless it seems to be only a break or part of the story, because I think we all want to enroot within the society again.

Maybe it is a multi-step process, similar to the following

1.)Feeling uprooted within society (becoming aware of TG)
2.)Enroot within TG-community (not alone)
3.) Accepting being TG (it’s real, and part of you)
4.) Uproot yourself from usual male-female norms (explore the options)
5.) Uproot yourself from the TG-community norms (other options)
6.) Enroot within yourself by defining conditions (ME)
7.) Enroot as male or female under altered conditions (what I am)
8.) Enroot within the society (how you are treated and how you deal with it)
9.) ?
10.) ?
(Start over ??? ;))
Right now I’d say I am dealing with 6. and 7.


Wearing a skirt around home during the day is also just normal attire. I don't even think of it as CDing - merely wearing my clothes.


The desire to dress is less intense but it is calmer and a little more constant the emotional the integration of my man self and wanting to feel like a woman well.


After a month or so, cding was a "I don't really even notice" type of event and the girl clothes were a natural part of me. Inside I was perhaps the calmest I have ever been in dealing with cding issues - Is that sort of what you're describing?


This results in losing the special excitment you used to experience when you could only snatch a few hours here and there to crossdress and you felt you were really were transformed into a female.


The only time I really thought about it was when I spilled something on my new sweater and skirt.


But the more I dress the more natural it feels.

I share this experiences and they tell me a few things. It is not only getting used to it and once you are used to it, you can skip it, because the “thrill” is gone. No, the thrill isn’t the point (though, some as I read elsewhere, fear to lose it), point is it feels natural, even so natural that you more and more often stop to think about it (except you spilled something on your clothes or you walk by a mirror “Ooops, how pretty, that’s me !”). You just do it without asking why and for what purpose, you just wear your clothes, you feel calm.
That is part of becoming enrooted IMO, enrooted within the own self. The feeling might not be so loud like the thrill and it is easily missed, but it goes deeper, it goes to the roots - the way it was meant to be.



I want to express both sides, being a woman, or a man and fallowing societies rules denies you or constrains you to behave a certian way and I being the hedonist I am want it all. I want to be a complete person and express the duality that is there.
My view at the moment is that I want to express both sides by being feminine as a man. The goal is the same: Complete person.


Here I go self-analyzing myself again, you have me realizing that that comfort level misled me. A short version would be that because my cding anxieites were so low, I thought I had fully accepted myself and it really wasn't such a big deal. Then I moved in with my wife and kids and began that slippery slide into the darkest depths of the closet. .
Luckily, due to some not so lucky incidents, I am fairly independent right now. So my speech might be totally different when I am trapped in constraints again. My hope is that I will be able to grow the tiny roots in order to withstand the constraints better (mentally or by doing)


I used to think it was a big goal to strive for to look like a woman. Now, it just seems to be a matter of consequence.
The goal certainly is the ME. Copying someone else almost always will fail anyway.
Right a matter of consequence or mood. Nice thing about the no-man’s land is that there are (almost) no contraints by no one else than the ME.


You end up realising that you are just you - a genetic male who wants to express feminine qualitities and is no longer concerned about gender conventions. This brings you to a state of crossdressing nirvana of inner peace and contentment. The crossdressing experience no longer seems mystical and you end up removing the word "cross" from crossdressing and just dress as you feel is correct. You realise that you have a natural right to express whatever combination of masculine and feminine that fits your personality and not to do so seems silly.
Exactly. Crossdressing becomes a technical term like Mr. or Ms. become technical terms only (they kinda have been before).
It’s unlikely that someone calls me Ms. but I wouldn’t mind, on the other side to be called Mr. is no insult to me, knowing and showing that I am not a typical one. I’d feel a bit uncomfortable to be named Something or It (feels a bit lost).


The other thing I've been doing is mixing the drab and dressy. Right now I have my skirt and blouse on, but was so cold I threw my male bulky sweater on over my thinner pretty sweater. And I've got me thick wool work socks on over my pretty little chenille socks. It just seems natural to work it that way.
Isn’t it just wonderful, that one doesn’t have to care about the label?
I almost don’t dare to say, but I bought two men’s pants lately, after trying several fem ones ( neither did really fit nor did they have the right color). They look so good with a fem top and shoes and they are mine :)


There is/was an excellent document named Welcome To Nowhere that I downloaded from Donna's Hideout that really helped me to see this other space, but I can't find it now. There are some great pages on that site though that explain it very well. (MsDonna, if you're reading this is that document still there or am I just blind this morning?)

In my thinking, you don't have to be a prototypical man to be a man. Whether society likes it or accepts it there are many valid ways to be a man. However, none of those ways are me. None of the valid ways of being a woman is me either. But I know I am something. Therefore what I must be is "something else".
Hm, maybe it is that. I can’t deal with this Nowhere and Something. That is to close to Nobody and Nothing (pure struggle for me). I would and I do easier to oppose to some norms knowing who I am and what I am, because I can do it with an inner conviction and not from a slippery ground of “somehow, somewhere, someone” or an urge or some other norms. I need to be rooted … familiar ground … even when I might be the only one on this ground in view.
There is man and women only, nothing else. Man and women can come along in different shades (some might be rare, and are not conform with the usual norms; other shades might even not be discovered yet) but that's it. My honest opinion (binary, 1 or 0). I as a "grey dresser" , I am 1 or 0 too, certainly with a different shade. As GM it's man (hurts, but it's true)


Rather than shuttle between male and female mode I am in a mixed mode. Quite frankly, mixed mode people are there but not often seen. It seems that many who don't see us are simply shuttling us to the nearest convenient identity that conforms to the notion that there are only men and women. We are recast either as very dense gasses or rather incohesive solids. And although I haven't really yet begun to dress in "grey mode" I am very aware that when I do so I will very likely be seen as a flamboyant gay man. So there may be more grey dressers than we realize.
Well, as much as I see the points and needs for shuttling and it depends a bit on the intention also, that is certainly nothing desirable or really understandable as a goal for me (probably that’s it: I don’t really understand shuttling as a goal, despite seeing valid arguments for the need.)
Gay yes, but that isn’t different for a “sharp CD” that usually is read the latest when it comes to personal contact (my only prob with being seen as gay, is that it lowers the chance to find a het partner even more). Man yes, no problem with it ‘cause I am a GM and don't have the wrong-body-feeling of the TSs.Though a lot of the manlyness is not desirable, it’s not everything wrong with it. The confusion part I’d like to leave up to others (it’s there this way or that way, anyway). Probably there are more grey dressers than we realize, though I have no real evidences for it. Neither here nor in “real life”.

I’d say a formerly good grey dresser (minus stage bonus) was Pete Burns (Dead or Alive), before (pre 1990, maybe still after first plastic surgery) he messed himself up with plastic surgery. Now he’s only one of those PS zombies like Michael Jackson or Mickey Rourke, having lost every inner and natural beauty.

[marie354]

Wearing femme gear has become a normal practice, even if it is only panties, pantyhose and camisole under drab. Wearing a skirt around home during the day is also just normal attire. I don't even think of it as CDing - merely wearing my clothes.

Me Too! When I have to do the drab thing, it's becoming more like crossdessing anymore.

[Marla S]

Well I don't get that chance to ever dress 24/7, but I know when I get to dress a lot, like four or five times a week, I don't feel natural at all, I fell confused on who I am and were will this take me, I even got some old posts out there explaining it, but thats how I feel.
Well, I have easy talking here. No constraints (since almost a year), every chance to explore everything. Maybe I'll come back to the not natural feeling faster than I like to (then just forget about the above), when my situation changes (It has to for several reason). Hopefully it won't happen, but who knows.

[Kate Simmons]

I guess I'm working on #8 according to your list Marla. 9 & 10 are up for "grabs" it looks like. Whatever the next steps are of "self evolution".:happy:

[Casey Morgan]

I can’t deal with this Nowhere and Something. That is to close to Nobody and Nothing (pure struggle for me).

I can respect that. Thanks to self-esteem problems, though, I spent many years feeling exactly like that: a nobody who fit in nowhere. That distance I had from being somebody and fitting in someplace may have made it easier for me to accept being someone I can't really define who "lives" somewhere I can't really define. I know from firsthand experience that my existance can't be taken away by me or anyone else. that's comforting actually.

Rather than seeing myself as undefined, I see myself as not yet defined. It's kind of like the explorers of the 17th and 18th centuries who came to new lands (new to them anyway) and saw animals that didn't exist where they came from. The opportunity to explore this "new" land and this "new" identity is rather exciting. There's a lot of learning ahead of me and puzzles to solve. Just my kind of thing.

I also respect that we have different viewpoints: binary and, to start anyway, tertiary. That makes it interesting.

I like your multi-step process. I'd say I'm dealing with 7 and 8 right now.

[Marla S]

. The opportunity to explore this "new" land and this "new" identity is rather exciting.
Indeed, it is.

I also respect that we have different viewpoints: binary and, to start anyway, tertiary. That makes it interesting.
Nothing against different view points, and I respect yours. I am happy with any counter-argument or diffrent view, because it helps to sharpen or scrutinze the own one. Evolution in any case ....


I like your multi-step process. I'd say I'm dealing with 7 and 8 right now.
.... but sometimes agreement and approval are damn good too. Thanks:hugs:

[melissaK]

Do you think that a strong introspective nature might be a common trait of CDers. if you read all of these posts it seems everyone is very self aware. I'm thinking it looks like we are very self absorbed or we are caught in this quest for understanding who we really are!

Well Jenn, this thread goes about as deep into introspection as you'll get. MarlaS has Buzzed us collectively "to infinity and beyond." So, yea, we're pretty darn introspective. But some of us like KarenHutton make a pretense of fighting off going deep into analysis, but I think her insightful and succinct commentary belie an introspective nature.

Chicken or egg? I vote the self-absorbtion is caused by not fitting in and a quest for understanding why. I don't see how self-absorbtion can cause the cding or TS inclinations. I think others have looked at this question as there have been psychologists that have noted cders and TS tend to have more than their share of narcissitic issues, which sounds sort of related to the self absorbtion you're noting. But my psyche training isn't there for me to say that with any degree of confidence.

Anyway, I loved your anaylsis MarlaS. Always merit to your thinking. But please stop before you reach 12 steps in the enrooting process. :heehee:

Hugs girls,
'lissa

[Marla S]

Anyway, I loved your anaylsis MarlaS. Always merit to your thinking. But please stop before you reach 12 steps in the enrooting process. :heehee:

Hugs girls,
'lissa
Thanks for replying to Jennifer's post !

And thank you for your nice words !

Believe me, I am not hell-bent on finding step 12. 8 is just enough (but there is always the chance to start all over :cry:).
As nice as self-refelection and thinking about TG is, it is also exhausting and time consuming.
I'd rather like to enjoy this silent moments of calmness and conviction, that come along with finding the fem self and produce that inner smile.

[Satrana]

In this sense I rather extend the male side than to jump to the female side.
The surprising part for me is that I learn to even profit from my not so loved male aspects this way, which I would have to deny by jumping to women's land.
Baseline: Not to fit in the male norms, doesn't make me a female, but leaves me essentially male. To become ME I have to extend the male norms, but can leave out some female ones. Not all too easy, because the book "Male" and the book "Female" are already written and common knowledge. But what I need to become ME is isn't written in there. I'd need a supplement to "Male", not written yet (very view "papers" only), hence I have to explore it myself.

Both male and female modes of existing have advantages and disadvantages. If you buy into the normal gender convention then you automatically inherit both the advantages and disadvantages of the gender you are given or the one you decide to live in. It is debatable whether one gender is a better than the other.

But for me, if you have decided to step outside the normal gender definitions then it seems silly to settle for one of the standard gender definitions. You may as well pick and choose the best bits from each and define your own gender which defines ME.

Of course this may not sit well with some people, not just because your gender will be unusual and different, but also because they may be cross that you take only the good bits and not the whole package including the disadvantages.

[RobertaFermina]

I think I earned a college degree absorbing 50% of what is already on this thread. Thank You Everyone!


I get Karren Hutton as more of a 'Beginner's Mind' - Wisdom comes out of being in the moment as well as through purposed insight and introspection - I like to believe both are threads of my consciousness.When I have faith in whichever one shows up, they do, and maybe at the same time?

There is a book called "If you meet Bhudda on the road, Kill Him!". The premise being that every person's enlightenment is unique, and role models are by virtue of this essential uniqueness, useless and limiting.

This "Nowhere" reminds me of these links I have been peddling over the last few weeks about crossdressing as a means of recovering the repressed feminine:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/alchemy.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/anima.htm


from: http://www.answers.com/topic/alchemy
al·che·my (ăl'kə-mē) pronunciation noun

1. A medieval chemical philosophy having as its asserted aims the transmutation of base metals into gold, the discovery of the panacea, and the preparation of the elixir of longevity.
2. A seemingly magical power or process of transmuting: “He wondered by what alchemy it was changed, so that what sickened him one hour, maddened him with hunger the next” (Marjorie K. Rawlings).


I am a GM raised with a with emotional gender dysphoria. I'm thinking that Transsexuals confront physical gender dysphoria, as well as emotional gender dysphoria.

Through my life I have thrown myself into male roles and pursuits and never felt 'right.' At the same time, my feminine instincts were repressed by society and myself. My emotional being was skewed by the departure of my mother and introduction into a disciplined and nurture-free zone of a foster-home for 7 boys.

I realize my natural boyish femininity was ravaged by the radical emotional climate change. I moved from natural and fey, to cynical child-soldier with the tender wise heart making cameo appearances as an 'old soul' that seemed incongruent with the rest of the party.

I'm getting that crossdressing is one more way to fall into a zone of surrender to femininity that moves toward a 'complete' me. When I dress, I am 'dragged' (pun discovered) in a feminine and (for the present) liberating direction. Each time I remove the makeup and FemWear and return to MaleWear, I retain a measure of change, shift towards, or permission to be The Feminine.

If I adopt any vision of what that balance of a GM with reclaimed feminine is, I am defining something I know nothing about.....though I might have a feel for it from my 'beginner's mind', my gut..I might know it when I manifest it.

I find myself in the uncomfortable position of denying every picture my mind manufactures about where I am going. To accept a picture, stereotype, role model, safe harbor is to bail out of the process.

I can have Integrity in my Alchemical Process, or the Security of "knowing" I am going somewhere my mind will count as 'safe'; I can't have both. I may not have the same mind when I get there, so safe is out of the question.

Confusion reflects virtue, a state of being with no words to define, control, or limit it. The only non-confusion I want to have is: A free and responsible search and acceptance for being, truth and meaning.

I am a manifestation of the miracle of being - When I limit the acceptable manifestations of my being - I reject the essential miracle - which does not want to be limited by my fears or desires, or enthusiasm.

It has to get WIERD to the conventional mind, as the truth defies all conventions.

I'm on a wierd, wild ride.

I still can't believe I shaved my legs!

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[kerrianna]

What an amazing thread and what an amazing array of unique, dazzling minds. I agree with Roberta, but could never have said it so poetically.

When I was young I thought that the ONE thing I would do in my life was gain knowledge and figure out what life was all about. I may have gained knowledge, still am, but I KNOW a lot less about everything, including gender. I may intuit more, I'm trying to become more open to that way of receiving the universe as I get nearer my transformation date (death).

The one thing I keep feeling is that the LESS I am rooted when that date comes the easier the transition will be. Not that I am casting away everything I've learned and accumulated and believe in...just that I want to be open and receptive to whatever it is I am a part of. It's very hard to explain...because it's not really analytical - maybe more faith based.

Everybody is on different points in the path. I've pretty much decided the compass isn't working and I'm never lost if I know I'm where I'm supposed to be...which is wherever I happen to be at the time. :D This kind of letting go allows me to be more open to the miracle of being, as Roberta put it.

I guess it never feels like nowhere land to me (or not any more - I always felt out of step). It feels more like where truth lies, outside the conventions of human society. And rather than feeling alone I feel connected to everyone and everything. :hugs:

[Kate Simmons]

While it may be confusing to some, due to "standard" gender role models, it appears some of us seem to be creating a "new animal" in that we relate to ourselves as a whole person and not just the product of our genetics. I'm wondering if it is indeed new, however, or rather is a returning to a former way of existance. Some of us indeed may be "throwbacks" to before we had "society" to define what role we fit into and people who really live by the expression of who they are and their feelings. Quite a bit of emotional intelligence comes into play here. To myself, it's becoming a "no brainer" to be this way and I feel I really don't have to account to anyone else for being who I am. Having this outlook seems to be opening up a whole new vista and way of dealing with things. You have to show a little boldness though because even within the TG community, there will be those who do not understand our approach to things and can't figure out why we don't settle into the standard model. By expressing my feelings, however, I'm not asking for anyone's permission, mind you, nor am I asking for acceptance. I'm simply stating that this is how I feel and this is what I'm going to do and the way I'm going to do it. Works for me.:happy:

[Marla S]

Both male and female modes of existing have advantages and disadvantages. If you buy into the normal gender convention then you automatically inherit both the advantages and disadvantages of the gender you are given or the one you decide to live in. It is debatable whether one gender is a better than the other.

But for me, if you have decided to step outside the normal gender definitions then it seems silly to settle for one of the standard gender definitions. You may as well pick and choose the best bits from each and define your own gender which defines ME.

Of course this may not sit well with some people, not just because your gender will be unusual and different, but also because they may be cross that you take only the good bits and not the whole package including the disadvantages.
Well, here we step into the delicate field of "What is gender ?"
I try to keep it simple for me.
Body: male. When I feel the need (not wish) to change that I'd do HRT/SRS and it becomes female.
Self-perception (ME): Doesn't really matter, cause the self is one and own, and it is debatable if the category gender applys her at all. Nevertheless it will be influenced by body and perception by others.
Perception by other: Most likely male, 'cause I don't pretend to be female, and there is this body.

Sums up to male, I think.

In any situation. Dressed or naked, meating family, friends, neigbours, strangers, close contact or just passing by, day, night, work, spare time.

That is my whole package. My "gender" has to be suitable and to be there for any situation. The same approach for my appearence. It has to be suitable for any situation. The accentuation might vary a bit, but alteration or shuttling is no option (A man doesn't shuttle, a woman doesn't shuttle, why should a TG ? And those TGs that shuttle shuttle between man and women, often with the focus on and the intention to match the classical gender defintions as close as possibel (stereotype).)

That has advantages and disadvantages. Pretending to be a woman, hence matching the gender defintion, is impossible, matching the male gender defintion is impossible too, but the body isn't an "enemy" anymore ("not so loved male aspects") and feminity can be expressed too (appearence and attitude).

[Marla S]

While it may be confusing to some, due to "standard" gender role models, it appears some of us seem to be creating a "new animal" in that we relate to ourselves as a whole person and not just the product of our genetics. I'm wondering if it is indeed new, however, or rather is a returning to a former way of existance. Some of us indeed may be "throwbacks" to before we had "society" to define what role we fit into and people who really live by the expression of who they are and their feelings. Quite a bit of emotional intelligence comes into play here. To myself, it's becoming a "no brainer" to be this way and I feel I really don't have to account to anyone else for being who I am. Having this outlook seems to be opening up a whole new vista and way of dealing with things. You have to show a little boldness though because even within the TG community, there will be those who do not understand our approach to things and can't figure out why we don't settle into the standard model. By expressing my feelings, however, I'm not asking for anyone's permission, mind you, nor am I asking for acceptance. I'm simply stating that this is how I feel and this is what I'm going to do and the way I'm going to do it. Works for me.:happy:
Well, what irritates me with the TG-community is that on an average there are the same old, classical, sterotypical standards and gender defintions like in the rest of the world. Only difference is that the body doesn't fit into the standards. Hence it is tried to make it fit (the trans part).
Not that this is bad, but it isn't redefining anything or stepping outside the norms actually.
Or is there really a new quality, that I've overlooked ?

[melissacd]

I think that this is a normal personality integration process. I know when someone asked me how I feel when I a dressed up my response was "I still feel like me, just better dressed". I believe that if we truly accept, embrace, explore and reflect on this component of who we are then over time it becomes an integrated part of us. The reason I believe that at first it feels differently for many of us is because we have repressed, rejected, pushed away, run away from a part of us that we were led to believe is wrong, unacceptable. When we start to make the psychological breakthrough to acceptance, to the point where we really believe that cross dressing is okay, a natural part of who we are, then we can start the internal process of integrating this femme component into our personality.

Does this make any sense or am I talk through my left ear again :2c:

[melissaK]

. Some of us indeed may be "throwbacks" to before we had "society" to define what role we fit into and people who really live by the expression of who they are and their feelings.

Not such a bad thought. As I read Arelene Lev's pages on anthropological accounts of past and other side of the planet cultures that have roles for transgendered, (in her book Transgendered Emergence) I thought too of old Darwin and survival of the fitest.

On a generalized plane of argument, our Western European culture which lacks such roles, competed better with cultures that did have such roles; but the genetic organisms that make up the culture also keep creating transgendered indivuduals. Arguably through discrimination and limitations on opportunity for success, our culture was forcing us out of the gene pool (a generalization).

But, cultures change and evolve - and we are in a period of cultural change and transgendered individuals are elbowing their way back into cultural roles. And that too is a challenge in and of itself, as MarlaS observes: "Well, what irritates me with the TG-community is that on an average there are the same old, classical, sterotypical standards and gender defintions like in the rest of the world. Only difference is that the body doesn't fit into the standards. Hence it is tried to make it fit (the trans part)."

This fits with Kerrianna's observation that "It feels more like where truth lies, outside the conventions of human society."

Roberta - jeepers girl - now I have to go study Jung. I'm intrigued by your introduction, just send me some spare time, or a clone, either will do. :heehee:

And MelissaCD, No, no left ear. I think you make sense.

Hugs all around,
'lissa

[Satrana]

I think that this is a normal personality integration process. I know when someone asked me how I feel when I a dressed up my response was "I still feel like me, just better dressed". I believe that if we truly accept, embrace, explore and reflect on this component of who we are then over time it becomes an integrated part of us. The reason I believe that at first it feels differently for many of us is because we have repressed, rejected, pushed away, run away from a part of us that we were led to believe is wrong, unacceptable. When we start to make the psychological breakthrough to acceptance, to the point where we really believe that cross dressing is okay, a natural part of who we are, then we can start the internal process of integrating this femme component into our personality.


I agree with your thoughts. However, I think there is a fork in the road on our travels and some people do not integrate their femme component but instead keep it seperated as a distinct entity and forever try to perfect the standard female gender conventions.

I suspect that these people, for their own reasons, wish to remain mainstream and do not want femme components to enter into their personality. Thats fine but I don't think they will get the full benefits of understanding themselves as a whole. Maybe they still struggle with the idea that they are an effeminate man at heart, maybe that still scares them. Nor am I sure that maintaining a type of split personality is a healthy option.

Gender is one of the last taboos in society. Few groups when defining themselves ever mess around with gender. You have to go to the more extreme groups like punks and goths to find people willing to take on gender definitions. Few people would think that in defining themselves, they should also define their own gender. It is supposed to be static, given attribute but we know it is not.

It is an alien thought and most people have no idea how they would define the details of their own gender. Gender was given to them by default and they just believed in it without question. Probably no different to people who used to believe the earth was flat - it was so obvious to them it must be flat nobody ever thought otherwise for thousands of years.

[Kate Simmons]

I agree with you Satrana but in all reality, I'm wondering why I didn't integrate my feelings a long time ago instead of waiting? Now it seems like sort of a "no brainer" to have gone that route. That's just how deeply conditioning by society goes I guess. In any case, I'm a much better and happier person now for having done what I did.:happy:

[Kelsy]

I agree with your thoughts. However, I think there is a fork in the road on our travels and some people do not integrate their femme component but instead keep it seperated as a distinct entity and forever try to perfect the standard female gender conventions.

I suspect that these people, for their own reasons, wish to remain mainstream and do not want femme components to enter into their personality. Thats fine but I don't think they will get the full benefits of understanding themselves as a whole. Maybe they still struggle with the idea that they are an effeminate man at heart, maybe that still scares them. Nor am I sure that maintaining a type of split personality is a healthy option.


Cultural norms still do dictate to the majority especially in gender issues. There is a herd mentality in human beings (safety in numbers) Sometimes , no, it just is easier to go with the crowd and society's conditioned norms. It takes true individuals , explorers if you will to break out in new uncharted waters beyond the flat earth thinkers to discover that a fully integrated individual is a far more complete person. The new direction of course brings with it pain, confusion, and rejection but also brings great joy comfort and completeness.

Jennifer

[crossing-the-rain]

Totally agreed !
Rain.