Last names and your personal identity

[Casey Morgan]

Boys are raised knowing that their last name will be theirs forever. We are kind of entrusted with the name and told to pass it on. There's kind of this feeling of I'm a Smith, I've always been a Smith, and I'll always be a Smith. We may play with our first and middle names, or even change them, but there's this sense that there had better be a good reason for changing your last name. It's almost a territorial thing.

It seems like girls are raised knowing that they're a Smith, they'll always be a Smith, but someday they'll be a Jones too and be known to the world as a Jones. I know some women stay a Smith and some women become a Smith-Jones or a Jones-Smith. And when many women get divorced they become a Smith again. So the sense seems to be that last names are more transient, reflecting the woman as she is at that time.

Does being transgendered change how you see your last name as a personal identity? Do you feel more of an impetus to protect the honor of your surname the way GMs do? (Not that I think women feel like "eh, f--- my maiden name".) Or is your last name a more malleable identity? Heh, is this question even making any sense?

[jsoto81]

I personally think that I've always had a sense of protecting my last name, it has a great history to it and has been around for centuries, and that could be that I've looked at it that way cause of how I've felt about myself.

I never looked at it like I'd have to give this name up, or if my brother wasn't around I'd be the last. I always some how knew, even when I was little, that my last name would be with me forever.

[Abraxas]

I've always kind of wanted to change my surname, but not because of marriage or anything. I just want one that's a reflection of me in meaning, and one that I enjoy. Once I change it, if I do get married I doubt I'll change it again though.

[bi_weird]

Mmm I've always loved my last name. It's long, and Dutch (Dad's from there), and so I've always had a sense of pride associated with it's uniqueness. Well, it's unique here where I live anway... So yeah even though I'm the only 'girl' with three brothers, I'm keeping my last name. I've never understood why I should give it up to become an appendage of someone else. I figure, though, if I marry a man the kids can have his name. Even though when the family came over they Americanized the pronounciation, American's still can't say it, so I wouldn't saddle the kids with it unless they really wanted it.

[pocoyo]

Boys are raised knowing that their last name will be theirs forever. We are kind of entrusted with the name and told to pass it on. There's kind of this feeling of I'm a Smith, I've always been a Smith, and I'll always be a Smith.

Do you feel...an impetus to protect the honor of your surname?

That's ^^ how I feel! Uh huh.

Hehe and the question did make sense :happy:

[Lex]

I've always just figured that I'd keep it, unless I was hooking up with someone who had a seriously awesome last name like Slartibartfast. I would SO change my name to that. :D

[Dasein9]

Was just reading about this in Butler during the past week. Names and naming and the Western search for permanence. Women are named, but there is an expectation that the name will be temporary. The name is not permanent, and so the identity of a woman is not permanent. Woman in our society, is defined by and is expected to derive her identity from the man whose name she bears. This affects how women are perceived as subjects, as people who matter.

I knew there was a good reason, back when I thought I was a woman, that I wouldn't take my husband's name! Besides, it's a sucky name -- Cheney!

[pocoyo]

unless I was hooking up with someone who had a seriously awesome last name like Slartibartfast. I would SO change my name to that. :D

COOL! You like Hitchhikers! :D

[bi_weird]

Ooooh and I forgot, there are a couple of exceptions to my rule. If I ever meet Roy G. Biv (science joke... RedOrangeYellow Green. BlueIndigoViolet) I'm marrying him on the spot and I'll take his name. Also, if I find someone who's last name is "Short" I'll hyphenate (sp?). My whole family is reeeaaallly tall (I'm the shortest of my brothers at six foot) so to at "Short" to the front of my name would be too amusing.

[Lex]

COOL! You like Hitchhikers!
Haha, heck yes, very amusing book, books actually, although I didn't finish the trilogy in five books, I think I got to the third before getting really, really confused. xD I'm sure I'll start again eventually though.

[Dasein9]

I first read Hitchhikers at about age 14. I re-read them about every 2 years, and still laugh out loud. Have even considered incorporating them into my courses. That'll probably have to wait until after I'm tenured, though...

[John]

No one can pronouce my last name if they see it writen, no one can spell it if it's said to them; when someone needs to right my name down, my standard responce is "It's **********, would you like me to spell that for you?".

I've always asociated my name with belonging to my familie, and as I have no plans of disoning them, I'll keep it. I can get a little difence of it: too many years of being called by my step-dad's last name and people not apologising for it :Angry3: .

Woo, hitch-hicker fans! I read all the books a couple a' times. The first three are grate, and the fith's good, but the fourth is not all that good (I tend to skim it only when reading the series), so you're not missing all that much. And the T.V. adaption was so cool...

[Abraxas]

My surname's 14 letters and Iranian, so I know what ya mean about nobody being able to pronounce or spell it. When someone asks what it is, I just go straight on and spell it. I find it rather annoying having to pronounce it for people, and tell people 5 times a day what its origin is... That, and it takes a full 5 minutes to write down, haha! Funny enough (it's my stepdad's name but he adopted me when I was about 9) when I was born my surname was Allen. Much easier.
Ahh, well.
And HGG-- number me among the fans. I definitely love the book. The recent movie... not so much (although had Hugh Laurie played Arthur Dent like Douglas Adams originally intended, it would have been much better. I did like that Stephen Fry was the Voice though... And Alan Rickman as Marvin). My personal favourite description is for the Pan-galactic gargle blaster. :D

[Adam]

my surname is great if i had been picking surnames i would have chosen the one i already have anyways.

[Evert]

Well.. I'm a Vroon, I will stay a Vroon and I will die a Vroon... :D

[CaptLex]

I have a very simple, easy surname - five letters, three consonants and two vowels - and people still screw up the pronounciation, believe it or not. Actually, I've always been against "married names" as they represent a time when women (and children) were considered a man's property - not unlike a slave name, in my opinion.

To answer the question, in my culture (the Hispanic culture), except for Hispanics that live in this country, women don't usually take on a married name and the children actually have both parents' surnames, so this, coupled with how I feel about married names, ensured that I would keep my name - even if I weren't TG. And my son changed his name to mine a long time ago, so if continuity is important to my family, it's a done deal.

Like others have said, my family name has always been important to me, especially it's history, and I don't see why I should have to change it for someone else's - especially since no one else's name can mean as much to me as mine. My cousin jokes that he would change his if he married a Rockefeller - but even that wouldn't do it for me.

BTW, I've had discussions about this with men who say they understand a woman wanting to hang on to her name, as it is her identity, but think any woman that they marry should change it for the sake of their children and both parents all having the same name. I always respond that it can just as easily happen if they change their surname to their wife's name, but this usually leaves them stammering. :p

[Lisa Golightly]

I know plenty of boys who've changed their surname to their wives.

[janedoe311]

Because we have two girls. But I am having less of a problem with it because I am just as much a O'Brien and Dunbar which is on my grandmothers (her mother and fathers name, from Dublin) side as my sir name. Yes your sir name is your label but it is not that important as long as your daughters know of their background.

[janedoe311]

Sir names were created to keep track of your family tree. I read it was because the Royal families needed to keep track of those related to them. It is standardization so one can easily follow a family’s genealogy. I understand it was the monarchies that ordered people to use sir names in about 1600. But that I am sure is up to debate. I doubt that Sir names were an attempt to own wives and children or to make sure the sons get the inheritance as some suggested.

In the end it is just another label.

[Felix]

Oh dear my feminist side is going to come out guys sorry!I don't see that women need a mans name to give them status woman are women in their own right and that sort of thing comes from a long history of patriarchal dominance. For me I have gone down the road of having a different surname and I never liked it when I was called Mrs and his christian name cos I had my own name and didn't need to be called his. I hated that with avengence. Now I have my single name and yeah I'm proud of the family name. I wouldn't want to change it again cos its like my herritage. Although if I ever got married I would be honoured to have my SO's name somehow mixed with mine. I don't see it as her ex's I see it as her own and nothing to do with him really cos it's all I've ever known her as. Other than that no I wouldn't change mine. I would change my first name though xx Felix (ya everyday feminist guy lol!) xx :hugs:

[Kimberley]

Hon works for me.... anytime.

I think today the emphasis is declining more and more. I think it is an individual choice but here is a twist. A friend took his wife's surname when they married. I thought that was kind of cool.

[Felix]

Hey Kim I think think thats really cool too.... Equality springs to mind xx Felix :hugs:

[Abraxas]

Yeah, Eddie Izzard said something about that... 'This woman's completely disappeared into the bloke's personality-- Mrs. Peter Smith.'

And a Stephen Fry (in drag) quote (paraphrased) along the same sort of lines, 'I used to be Mary Jones but I got married and took my husband's name so now I'm Nigel Jones.'
Well. I thought it was funny.

[pocoyo]

Mmmmmmm Stephen Fry..... in drag......:luvu: :drool:

[Sierra Evon]

For me my femme name has become my well un-official name even tho my drivers licience says other wise , the name ya'll see on the left of the screen will be me 4-ever , hate my male name anyway , I choose not to use it !!, only when I haff to , to to me its YUKY ......

[Dasein9]

Was reading more about this...

Okay, let's take a look at kinship in Western society. Women are owned and given away to husbands by their fathers. Now, since the women don't matter, the important kinship relations are between the father, the husband, and any sons that might come along. So they're sexual relationships, but always between men.

So marriage is just another form of homosexuality, and those weirdo straight people need to let the "normal" homosexuals get married already! ;)

[Dasein9]

Or not. :D

[Kimberley]

Hey Dasein, up here it is legal. Just a few hours north or north west.

The real problem with homosexuality are all the heterosexual parents producing them....

Kind of applies to us too doesnt it?

[ZenFrost]

When my mother married my father, she didn't change her name. My sister and I were named with her last name as our middle name and our father's last name as our last name. When my sister got married we kept joking that she should change her last name to her husband's last name and her husband should change his last name to her last name. Neither changed their names though.

I've decided recently that I'm going to change my first name (I haven't decided what to change it to though) because my real first name it too girly. I kinda want to change my middle and last names because I don't particularly like them, but I really don't want to sever my ties with my family by doing so.

[Felix]

Kim hun I might be way off here but what's wrong with homosexuals The parents can't help it if their kids are gay so where's the problem unless ya homophobic that is!! EQUALITY FOR ALL LOL whether gay, straight, lesbian, bi sexual, transgendered :) Happy Rainbows to all xx Felix

[Dasein9]

Hey Dasein, up here it is legal. Just a few hours north or north west.

The real problem with homosexuality are all the heterosexual parents producing them....

Kind of applies to us too doesnt it?

Absoloodle!

Felix, I'm fairly sure Kimberley was speaking through the voice of people who do think there's something wrong with homosexuals, and not her own in this particular passage. I arrive at this interpretation after having read many of her other posts, and I believe it's in character.

If I'm wrong, let me know, 'kay? :)

[Felix]

Hi Daz ya prob right, as I said to Kim I might be missin somethin here and I prob am silly me :o I'm gettin right on my high horse lately it's a right pain :( xx Felix :hugs:

[Dasein9]

It's probably okay. Judging from Kimberley's posts, she's also pretty understanding. Sometimes we are being attacked, and it's difficult to convey tone on a message board. :)

[Felix]

Ya right there my friend :thumbsup: Welcome to my cats club xx Felix :hugs:

[Kimberley]

Felix, just to clear what may be percieved as a misunderstanding due to my definitely warped sense of humour.

I am a complete 100% advocate for marriage regardless of sex or gender. I am very much on record here in Canada for that, and more than a few neo cons have a price on my ears (or even other appendages) I am sure. When the debate was raging here I p***ed more than a few of them off and very publically, nationally if the truth be known.

My comment about heteros producing....

It is a slap at the conservatives who think it is a choice, that anyone has a choice in this. In otherwords, "If you dont want homosexual children, dont reproduce."

Better hon? Give us a big wet kiss and and a hug now!!!

:hugs:
Kimberley

:love: all you guys.... no matter what!

[Dasein9]

I'm glad you replied, Kimberley. I didn't want to put words in your mouth, but also couldn't believe you thought there was anything wrong with gay people. :)

100% in favour, eh? That's more than I am. Don't get me wrong -- I'm in favour of gay marriage, but also worry that it might further entrench the heteronormative notion that the only non-blood kindred relationships that ought to be legitimated by the government are those built on the heterosexual model. I think we need to open up the possibilities for other kinds of relationships gaining legal status, instead of what I fear may be a case of homosexuals simply starting to act more like straight people.

[Kimberley]

Das.
I believe in equal rights for everyone. What ticks me off are people who are ignorant to other ideals and lifestyles other than their own, then try to perpetuate those myths of their misguided beliefs, narrow experience and singular opinion as fact, on the rest of the population through quasi legitimate electoral-legal means.

Yeah I am a liberal. Hope you dont hold that against me. In short *F* em.

*oh how unladylike*

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Dasein9]

Aaaaaayyyy-men, sistah! :D

[bi_weird]

I'm in favour of gay marriage, but also worry that it might further entrench the heteronormative notion that the only non-blood kindred relationships that ought to be legitimated by the government are those built on the heterosexual model.

Mmm yes. I find our current idea of marriage horridly limiting. Lets face it, not everyone is built for a lifetime of monogamy. I also find the idea that the only relationship worth persuing perminantly is one in which you want to sleep with the other person. I'm on a permanant crusade against the phrase "just friends". Are you referring to polygamy with this? I'm curious, mostly just 'cause I want to figure out what my own opinion on that subject is.

[Dasein9]

I'm referring to any kind of relationship whatsoever, so long as it's entered into by consenting adults. Maybe someone will even come up with an idea that no-one's thought of yet. If the Republicans get their way, that would be illegal before it's even conceived.

[bi_weird]

Haha don't even get me started about Republicans. I am afterall queer and a student at the University of Michigan, it doesn't get much more liberal than this.
Actually though, there are nice republicans. It's the neo-cons who are the problem...that and ignorance.

[CaptLex]

Interesting discussion . . . I just want to point out that any thread that turns political routinely gets moved to the political section, which is one of the private sections, so then you'll have to join it if you want to continue discussing politics.

[Felix]

This could be seen on the other hand as a gender discussion which unfortunately does have political overtones. I think it's been extremely interesting knowing how you guys feel about this issue and ya might feel more comfortable discussing it in here correct me if I'm wrong. There are some things I would rather discuss in here relating to gender as I feel the open mindedness is apparent here and that I wouldn't get shot down in flames. Pluss I don't feel I need to back everything up with statistics which I was advised to do in the political forum. It's nice just to have an informal chat even if it has got a little political edge to it.

Thanx Kim :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: ya cool cat xx Felix

[Kimberley]

I agree Felix, there is a difference between arguing politics and discussing legal and political views on gender. A huge difference.

IMHO there are many issues that confront us in these areas not just here but worldwide and a broad discussion is warranted as long as it doesnt turn to political dogma and flag waving. I think that is where the Capn. is coming from.

[Dasein9]

I just think it's funny that on New Year's Eve I got called a neocon! (At a party I'd gone to in a tie, and where everyone else was straight. )

Really, what are some people thinking?

[Kimberley]

Interesting. I would have to wonder if that was a judgement based on presentation or perceived opinions that the individual made no effort to confirm. Pretty sad when a "liberal" makes those kinds of judgements but I guess there are reactionaries on both sides of the fence.

Gee, it took me about oh maybe 4 or 5 posts to pretty much figure out where you were basically coming from.

[CaptLex]

I agree Felix, there is a difference between arguing politics and discussing legal and political views on gender. A huge difference.
Yup, I agree too. I just wanted to point out that when threads start drifting into definite political territory where people start invoking political parties and/or politicians and their leanings, they tend to get moved and I'd like this thread to stay here so we can continue to discuss it.

Sorry for the interruption, please carry on . . .

[bi_weird]

So in other words, I know that discussing neocons won't get me anywhere anyway, so move back to the other bit on legal relationships etc.
But yeah I have pretty unorthadox views on marriage. In my ideal world (I'm a horrendous idealist, and I know that most of what I want is unrealistic. Doesn't stop me from wanting it or trying to figure out how to achieve it anyway) there'd be a lot of different ways to be legally bound to someone, and it'd depend on the purpose of your relationship. People have all sorts of different types of feelings for each other, and it's silly to only have one way to legalize it.
I have more, but I can't seem to concentrate on this right now, so I'll stop rambling.

[CaptLex]

In my ideal world (I'm a horrendous idealist, and I know that most of what I want is unrealistic. Doesn't stop me from wanting it or trying to figure out how to achieve it anyway).
Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's the idealists that won't give up on those ideas that start the important changes in the world. Ramble on! :happy:

[Felix]

Yup I agree with ya Capt and top cat here, it's great to be able to discuss gender and sexuality issues here and I'm sure we can get round the political dogma of naming parties if we try. There are always ways round things :thumbsup: To all ya cool cats here the cats club is now open so lets discuss.........

Hi Kim and here here!!

I love ya views Bi :thumbsup:

Totallt agree with ya Daz as long as it's two consenting adults :thumbsup:

[Dasein9]

Interesting. I would have to wonder if that was a judgement based on presentation or perceived opinions that the individual made no effort to confirm. Pretty sad when a "liberal" makes those kinds of judgements but I guess there are reactionaries on both sides of the fence.

Gee, it took me about oh maybe 4 or 5 posts to pretty much figure out where you were basically coming from.

LOL! Yeh, most people do read me as a liberal pretty quickly. I had said that a conservative point I'd read some years before had some merit. Oi. It's not like the other side's entirely stupid or anything.

Okay, end of politics for me. :D