More difficult for people born female to know?

[pocoyo]

Do you think that it is harder for people born with a female body to know whether they are transgender/transexual?

Because in a lot of ways it is "normal" for girls and women to "crossdress" or even act very boyish.

So even if you question yourself you can be told, or tell yourself "oh well.. I'm just being a normal boyish girl".

Wheras men, average straight "manly men" at least, are expected to act in a certain way, so the "gender divide" is clearer.
So in some ways they can tell and feel more easily when they are stepping over that line....



********

I was thinking about this when I was reading a thread in the transexual forum about "Do you just KNOW?" it struck me that, even though it is very hard for anyone to know... it could be especially hard for people born with a female body to know... even if they do "know", they are likely to doubt themselves.

It would be nice to get that feeling that some talk about... "one day, I just knew!" ... sometimes I DO feel that (I'm definitely a boy)... but then I argue against it with my "sensible side". It can happen the other way too "Ok, you're just a weird girl.. now get on with it..."... "but if that was true then you wouldn't feel this, or this....etc"

Btw... I know that some people don't ever doubt themselves... and just know one way or another. But I suppose that could be down to different personality types.

Owch... bit thoughtful for a Thursday afternoon... meant to be working on my illustrations here, tut tut!....*shakes the brain-ache away*
.... Back to work!!!


[Edit: Ooops, oh my goodness! just realised that this question is a bit hard to follow! I'm sorry! What a thicky!
I should have made it clear that the 1st half roughly relates to being transgender/transexual...
And the 2nd half is really just roughly related to being transexual!]

[durden]

I kinda feel like you know regardless of which body you're born into that's wrong. I mean, for myself, I constantly felt uncomfortable w/myself... & I knew exactly why. I never tried to let stereotypes influence me, or even pass it off as a phase. A glitch is a glitch. & when something's wrong, you just know. Maybe it's kinda hard for me to answer this question when I never had any doubts, & I never tried to convince myself otherwise or talk myself out of my feelings.

[Dasein9]

Not only did I know something, even if I didn't have a word for it, was wrong, but other people knew too. I was socially awkward, and kept trying to make up for it, which made for more social awkwardness, which I kept trying to make up for... Well, you get the picture. People who know me well have said that they've never seen me happier or more self-confident than since I've come to terms with being trans.

[pocoyo]

Durden - yeah it must be nice to have never had doubts!
I totally relate to the uncomfortableness and knowing something isn't right, but I am a very questioning person... like over-the-top analytical, even when I should be sure of something.
I suppose thats a good and a bad thing when being tg, because on the one hand it makes you careful to not make any mistakes but also holds you back or slows you down in making progress.

Das - Ahh yes... something but no word for it. I didn't even know about other FtM people until the last few years.
I get a feeling I'd be like you... happier and more confident than I've EVER been if I just KNEW I was male and was on the way to becoming fully male.... but ...
...I guess it's hard to not have doubts when you have people saying "but you're such a gorgeous girl" all the time, and you have men falling in love with you left right and centre. (Although that IS bloody annoying it's nice to be able to go out with sexy guys... even if it's not quite right)...not that I DO go out with them anymore since really becoming uncomfortable/deciding not to put up with feeling uncomfortable anymore.
That's just 1 reason for my doubts.


I personally think I make quite an ugly girl...but I do scrub up really quite well.
It makes it hard to ... well, to realise what I am.

Sorry if reply doesn't make sense... in a hurry!

[Kimberley]

As a child I had no frame of reference but knew things werent right. As a prepubescent teen I knew I shouldnt have been a boy. As a young adult I denied everything and moved on but could never leave it behind. As an adult I knew what I was and have been able to get the information I needed to semi-sort of come to terms with it although I know this will haunt me to my last breath.

I just knew.

[Dasein9]

Poc, you've posted pics (Poc-pics?) of yourself in both modes, and you're quite... erm... well... hot in all of them. (I'm not trying to flirt -- you're way too young for me!)

So if there's one worry to lay aside, it's the one about whether you'd be more attractive to others in one mode or the other. So, whose opinion matters most? Other people's? Yours? Some other option I haven't thought of? Only you can figure that out. In some ways, I think I'm fortunate not to have made all that attractive a woman. But it's daunting, now that everyone seems to think I'm a cute boy. (And some people still persist in thinking it's not real... !)

[Kimberley]

Yeah Das, there are always the doubters. I cant be bothered with them or even trying to convince them of anything. Most people will formulate opinion before they have the facts anyway so it is an uphill battle.

For me, I know for myself and that is what counts most.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[pocoyo]

As a child I had no frame of reference but knew things werent right. As a prepubescent teen I knew I shouldnt have been a boy. As a young adult I denied everything and moved on but could never leave it behind. As an adult I knew what I was and have been able to get the information I needed to semi-sort of come to terms with it although I know this will haunt me to my last breath.

I just knew.

Do you think that it was easy for you to tell because your female-feeling self was in such sharp contrast to the male life you were expected to lead?

And WHAT was it you knew? That you were a girl? Or that you were different?

So now you're an adult... you know... you didn't fully realise what it was before?

LADY... don't you dare be "haunted"..... if you are unhappy... do something about it!!!!!!!!!!!!


************

Das - haha! Aww thanks that's really nice :o
That is a factor.
Awww you're so nice hehe!! Aaargh I really want to see you even more now I know you make a nice looking boy! Cap says you're cute :D :D
I do personally think I'd be ok looking as a guy and wouldn't even care if I was slightly ugly because that can even be sexy!
I know I know... you're so right... other peoples' opinions shouldn't matter....
but sometimes they are almost SMOTHERING and stifling...
Telling me, beating me over the head with, "you're a girl, you're a girl... you're so pretty....you'd make a bad boy because your features are so girly..." (Uh hello there's loads of pretty little dudes!). I suppose people that already know me as a girl must find it hard to picture me another way.
I know they are just scared and just trying to help though.

My mum said to me on Monday "But you're so INNATELY FEMALE"... aaaaaaaargh!!!
Being soft and kind and caring and even feminine sometimes.. does not make one FEMALE!

[John]

I am a very questioning person... like over-the-top analytical, even when I should be sure of something.

Oh, belive me, I feel for you there. I do the same, and I don't think studying psychology helps.

But as to you're original point, I kind of agree, at least when it comes to clothing. I mean, if a 'boy' decides he wants to go out in skirt and hells with makeup, there are only so many conlusions you can jump to befor you arive at 'crossdresing' (or otherwise). If a girl wants to go out in geans and a bagy T-shirt... yeah? and? (actually, what exactly dose count for FTM crossdressing? underwhere? the point at which you start trying to pass?).

The way in which gende equility has developed gives maskulinity much stricter rules, it's esier to tell when you're straying from the pack. (not that I'm trying ot belittle the doubt and uncirtanties of the MTFs here. Knowing you're diferent and axepting you're transgender are two diferent things).

[Kimberley]

Do you think that it was easy for you to tell because your female-feeling self was in such sharp contrast to the male life you were expected to lead?

And WHAT was it you knew? That you were a girl? Or that you were different?

So now you're an adult... you know... you didn't fully realise what it was before?

LADY... don't you dare be "haunted"..... if you are unhappy... do something about it!!!!!!!!!!!!



I knew that my inner self didnt fit the plumbing, that I should have been female. I may have even thought I was (probably but cant say for 100% sure). My interests were never with the boys so I was mostly ignored and the girls... well I wasnt a girl in the physical sense. So, knowing I was different (gender wise among others) made things difficult. I think the added confusion to already having to hide just made things worse. I think the gender dysphoria existed as a child, I just didnt know how to frame it. The older I got, the more I could put things into context of course.

As to being haunted I will not be transitioning for reasons already made very public and I wont bore ppl with them again. So, the gender dysphoria will "haunt" me. Does that make more sense hon?


But as to you're original point, I kind of agree, at least when it comes to clothing. I mean, if a 'boy' decides he wants to go out in skirt and hells with makeup, there are only so many conlusions you can jump to befor you arive at 'crossdresing' (or otherwise). If a girl wants to go out in geans and a bagy T-shirt... yeah? and? (actually, what exactly dose count for FTM crossdressing? underwhere? the point at which you start trying to pass?).


I think that while you may be right in outward appearances, it still comes down to inner needs for presentation. For a male, it is always more difficult; no doubt about that. For a female, it is much easier to be stealthy as you have pointed out. I believe the Xdressing is an inner need of gender expression moreso than a "fashion" expression. This is always a repeating complaint on the M2F forums. Some people just dont get it.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[pocoyo]

Joshua - yus exactly :)

Kimberley - yeah it does make a bit more sense thanks.


:hugs:

[Sierra Evon]

For me on this thread , Ive never truly felt like on of the boys growing up , as a yougster, just looked like on of the boys to everyone else , so I played along with that , but deep in my core self , I knew that was not the case , I did'nt really know or really become aware of it till around age 12-13-14 , then the feeling of wanting to become a girl had hit me like a nucliar blast , still had to keep it under wraps from my mom & dad , for fear of them shipping me off to some mental institution . Bottom line is this I've never been one for the roughf and tumble ways of the boys/guys/men, there was no fighting it for me even tho , for a long time I've tryed , ever since I've embraced my transsexuality , hence my divorce in Nov. 2000, I feel like I can and do live my life full measure, and will be this way and who I am till the day I die. , or when the Lord see's fit to take me ......:2c:

[JenniferMint]

Do you think that it is harder for people born with a female body to know whether they are transgender/transexual?

Because in a lot of ways it is "normal" for girls and women to "crossdress" or even act very boyish.

So even if you question yourself you can be told, or tell yourself "oh well.. I'm just being a normal boyish girl".

From the M2F perspective... growing up I remember in my Catholic school they showed a video about a boy who wanted to play with dolls. People made fun of him, but he got the doll he wanted in the end and the point of the video was that there's nothing wrong with boys who want to play with dolls (thinking back on it, this was a Catholic school, so I'm impressed!).

So... I wasn't manly at all growing up, but my non-manliness wasn't considered abnormal in any way so I didn't question gender much back then.

[pocoyo]

Sierra... I'm glad that you worked it out and are true to yourself now :)


From the M2F perspective... growing up I remember in my Catholic school they showed a video about a boy who wanted to play with dolls. People made fun of him, but he got the doll he wanted in the end and the point of the video was that there's nothing wrong with boys who want to play with dolls (thinking back on it, this was a Catholic school, so I'm impressed!).

So... I wasn't manly at all growing up, but my non-manliness wasn't considered abnormal in any way so I didn't question gender much back then.

Ahh.... see now that's very interesting!
That if it's not considered abnormal... you don't question it so much.

Hey that's brilliant that they said it was ok for boys to play with dolls... I'm so impressed :D

[CaptLex]

I personally think I make quite an ugly girl...but I do scrub up really quite well.

Um . . . :eek: and . . . :rolleyes: . . . don't even go there, Poc. Das is right, you're a hottie in either mode. Trust me, I wouldn't say it if it weren't true (especially since I'm jealous).

To answer your question, I've noticed that a lot of FtMs are confused and undecided precisely because they've met other female-bodied people who present an appearance of being between genders, and so they think it's not so unusual to be masculine and still be biologically female. Others, it seems, have no such doubts and never waver from really knowing from childhood. I don't think it makes either kind more trans than the other, but I don't know why this happens.

In my situation, I absolutely knew it at a very young age, and then after puberty, I somehow convinced myself that maybe I was a combination of both (most likely due to the hormones that kicked in during puberty, I realize now). When I finally realized the truth again, it was due to another hormonal shift. Not much help, I know 'cause my situation seems to be unique (translation: I have a weird body).

[Kimberley]

Pretty much textbook TS isnt it?

:hugs:
Kimberley

[pocoyo]

Um . . . :eek: and . . . :rolleyes: . . . don't even go there, Poc. Das is right, you're a hottie in either mode. Trust me, I wouldn't say it if it weren't true
:o awww thank you. You're obviously all wearing beer goggles but I love ya for it!


(especially since I'm jealous).
WHAAAT?? *looks bewildered* Ooh shut up you hunky little sex bomb! (In very gay camp voice.)...Captain Lex floats my boat baby yeah!


To answer your question, I've noticed that a lot of FtMs are confused and undecided precisely because they've met other female-bodied people who present an appearance of being between genders, and so they think it's not so unusual to be masculine and still be biologically female.
Yes yes... very confusing!


Others, it seems, have no such doubts and never waver from really knowing from childhood. I don't think it makes either kind more trans than the other, but I don't know why this happens.

Then there are people like me who are a combination of both!
Had lots of "signs" and feelings throughout my life and yet still very confused and analytical about it all.

It must be nice for those that are just so unwaveringly sure of themselves like those you mention. But then I'm never sure of myself about anything... so that doesn't really help lol.


In my situation, I absolutely knew it at a very young age, and then after puberty, I somehow convinced myself that maybe I was a combination of both (most likely due to the hormones that kicked in during puberty, I realize now). When I finally realized the truth again, it was due to another hormonal shift. Not much help, I know 'cause my situation seems to be unique
Yeah man... I keep having this phrase running around in my head lately...
"Hormones have a lot to answer for!"


(translation: I have a weird body).
Hahaha! Awww poor you!


Btw I love the new bit of your signature... you have no excuse for being whacky LOL!
Very cool avatar too :)

Thanks Cap.. you're a cool dude.

[kerrianna]

I asked my SO, who was, and is in many ways, a "tom-boy" growing up about what that was like. She grew up in Northern Canada, among other places, where there weren't many people and certainly not a place for feminine little girls, so she hung out with the boys and gave as good as she got. She also hung out with the native kids who she says never really made a gender distinction at all with each other. She remembers trying to pee standing up and being surprised that didn't work out. She says she never really had a desire to be a boy, maybe be because she wasn't being forced to be more of a girl in that environment. When she moved to the south and our white 'civilized' culture she immediately felt at odds with the girls here. She was ostracized and she ended up hating girls and their make-up etc, so she still hung out with the boys, only this time the more geeky :happy: boys. It wasn't until her late 20's that she started relaxing into her own body and was willing to dress more feminine and shift more to the cultural 'norm'. Even today she is much more of a 'tomboy' than a lot of her friends although I just see her as who she is. All my best friends growing up were either tomboyish girls or 'sensitive' boys.

I just threw her story out as an example I guess. She never felt she was born in the wrong body, but she DID feel at odds with the world and like me it's taken her a long time to start feeling more at home and okay with ourselves. I know her dad wanted a boy and treated her that way a lot, going fishing, hunting etc. He was very upset when she hit puberty and he realized maybe he didn't have a son after all. So all these factors confuse the issue, but my SO does agree that it was easier for her, and more natural to play with the boys when she was younger.

As for me, I was born with a body that just couldn't take the pounding of young male hijinks, and was always very very sensitive and shy. I therefore avoided the boys and hung out with the girls, mainly the 'tomboy' girls. My best friend was a real tough tomboy (she knocked my block off once :D ), but once she hit puberty suddenly the sensitive guys were of no interest and the cool rock dudes and tough guys were. I ALWAYS felt like an outsider and that I didn't fit. Although I recall vividly crying because I wasn't born a girl, and crossdressing when I was 5 or 6, and wanting to play all the girl games etc., I am still not sure if that came first, or if the ostracisation of being a wimpy boy pushed me in that direction. (girls are 'tomboys' and that's 'cute' while boys are 'sissies' and that is BAD). This is something I am just starting to revisit and I don't think I will ever really know. I've never experienced that feeling that this was a mistake I should have been a girl - more an intellectual judgement sometimes I think. I know this is kinda what you're wrestling with here Pocs. Which came first - are you rationalizing something?

There are many many factors which make us outsiders amongst our peers. Body image and identity is a huge one. I'm not going to pretend to understand gender dysphoria. I'm not sure myself of where I fit in - I just know that the feeling of being outside the norm got to be my norm (I was smarter than them, I was more sensitive than them, I was more creative than them....) and I've been happy that I was different more often than not (what with the banality of MANkind some days). I realize now that maybe I never was so different and I'm trying to slide myself back to more forgiving ground (of myself and others) but it's taken me 48 yrs to start that.

I don't regret not pushing myself one way or the other (I never really thought of it as possibly being gender based altho I can see how that really did make decisions for me - at least having the body and brain I was given did). I'm glad I grew up in between because I do feel unique and special, although I have been a bit lonely and sad most of my life too. But who I am today feels pretty good and that's because I've been fortunate to have a view of both sides.

I don't know if any of this helps Pocs, it was a good question you asked. From reading the replies of others who have felt differently I'd say there does seem to be cases where people 'just know'. You do raise an interesting question about whether some people, like myself, tend to question themselves a lot about things. I don't think I've ever felt SURE about anything in my life. Again, it begs the question - which came first? Is it because you start life off on the wrong foot (wrong gender, wrong race???) and develop this questioning unique perspective? Or were you born with that kind of spirit and therefore can see that there are others ways of being rather than as the gender (or race???) you were born as?

I do agree that girls might not feel so lost at an early age because they usually get less flack for being tomboys. Looking back at my SO's experiences and mine I can see I was much more traumatized and questioning growing up. It's interesting that we kind of met in the middle (except now Kerrianna wants to shift that a bit altho I've been letting my sensitive side languish the last decade so maybe it's just a re-balancing - or a return?)

I like what you said about being soft and caring does not make one more female. If our society encouraged that in ALL our kids we would live in a better world, and maybe some of us would be able to grow up just being secure in who we are.

[pocoyo]

...... woooooooaaaaahhh!

And I thought I talked a lot in posts :p

Hehehe. Thanks Kez.... definitely food for thought there.
Is it because creative, intelligent people can see and want to experience other ways of being.... or because something is fundamentally "wrong".

Hmmmm :thinking:

Perhaps either way it ends up amounting to the same?
More comfortable a certain way?

Oooh I don't know.

Perhaps I just need to shut up and stop worrying/wondering/moaning/complaining! (Uh oh... but in which direction).

Oh b*llocks to this!!!!! LOL!

Cheers lovely :hugs:

[Kimberley]

Which raises the old question of creativity in our population....

[ZenFrost]

I don't really think it's harder for one or the other. Like many people have already said on the thread: It's something that you just KNOW.

[John]

It's something that you just KNOW.

I didn't. I needed it hammered home several times for several years befor it even ocoured to me (and I'm still not sure where I stand on it).

and Poyoko? Just bow to the overriding opinion here, you are good looking (that or a master at doctoring photographs).

[Abraxas]

Hmmm. I've not posted here before now for lack of... words. :heehee:
Sorry, feeling even less eloquent than usual, which is hard to believe.
For me... I dunno, I always felt off, more or less, again, though, didn't have a word for it and it took at least 6 viewings of Izzard's 'Dress to Kill' before I finally smacked my forehead and said, 'no kidding, eh? Trans? Me? Hmm.' Then again, that's me: thicker than two short planks.
I never thought it was weird, really. But then up until recently (like, the last 6 months or so) I've never really given much thought to my thoughts. Never psychoanalysed myself. Never questioned whether what I was feeling was 'normal' or 'usual' or 'weird' or 'quirky' or whatever. I just... accepted whatever thoughts I had. I've never, EVER seen myself as a girl, never been comfortable with other people thinking of me as one. When I was very young, and my grandma would say I was pretty or dainty or fragile, I'd just squirm uncomfortably and think 'Oh god not this again. Better change the subject.' Just figured that was who I was. I never thought about whether I was different from the other girls or boys, I just stayed away from them as best I could. Apparently they thought I was different, cos by the end of first recess I was always bruised or bleeding. Didn't think anything of it, as far as I remember. Just saw myself as a target, never gave much thought as to why. I'm talking too much about stuff people aren't interested in. *shut up, Ben!*

It's a curse: I'm dense AND talkative. And in a very weird mood, if ya hadn't noticed...

Oh, and Poc (as an afterthought, but actually a beforethought, just thought I should answer the question properly (sort of) first)... Yeah, you're a hottie. Don't make me say it again. I don't do the whole compliment thing. Nor do I flirt.

Wow. I am really in a very weird mood. I'll probably read over this tomorrow and wonder if I'd taken a lot of drugs and just don't remember. Sobriety is a strange thing...

:dance:

[pocoyo]

Sorry... there's a lot about me in this post hehe!
Oooh it's all "Me me me me me" hahaha....!


Which raises the old question of creativity in our population....
*blinks* whaa? Care to elaborate dear girl?


I don't really think it's harder for one or the other. Like many people have already said on the thread: It's something that you just KNOW.

Whu wha? What is?
(Haha sometimes I need things explained to me like I'm a little kid!... Seriously!)
Knowing that you're transgendered...like... have gender confusion? Or knowing that you are transexual...like would definitley like to transition?
I do know that I am definitely transgendered....(I think :straightface:..... !)


Hmmm....!

I do think that there can be many factors which cloud the "knowing" in some people. I suppose sometimes it's all down to individual thought, type and circumstance.

I think that if you are the kind of person that is very unsure of themselves (for whatever reason) and needs reassurance a lot... other people's opinion can count a lot in your reasoning...

And some people are more cautious.

Also .. sometimes I wonder if some people really "know" about lots of things...
What I mean is... well here's an example:
Sometimes if someone is in an unhappy relationship, they just put up and put up and put up with it, fantasising and wondering and over-analyse about leaving but don't actually do it because they are waiting for that hand to point out of the sky and a deep booming voice to say "Now is the time...."
But sometimes we don't always know... and just have to be brave and do what we suspect is right.

I had that exact thing with a relationship and I saw my mum and many of my friends have the same.
Difference between me and them is... like them I was so unsure... but I just did it and left ... even though I didn't "know"... and it was one of the best things I ever did! It was also a great lesson... I will never allow myself to get "stuck" in a not-right/horrible relationship again.

I guess that sort of thing can't always be applied to every situation.. but I think there could be parallels.


I didn't. I needed it hammered home several times for several years befor it even ocoured to me (and I'm still not sure where I stand on it).

and Poyoko? Just bow to the overriding opinion here, you are good looking (that or a master at doctoring photographs).
Yeah I guess some people are really really analytical, or scared, or unsure or confused. Or even uninformed... like I didn't even know people could transition 'til the last few years... so I had no way of knowing it was truly possible. So it's a fairly new consideration for me.
Even though I knew I had private thoughts and feelings I had never properly shared them with anyone, because I knew people wouldn't understand and because they see me as such a girl (albeit a very tomboyish one).

Haha! Oh thank you :o lol! No I don't doctor my photographs (apart from occasionally to make them b/w or grainy etc).


Hmmm. I've not posted here before now for lack of... words. :heehee:
Sorry, feeling even less eloquent than usual, which is hard to believe.
For me... I dunno, I always felt off, more or less, again, though, didn't have a word for it and it took at least 6 viewings of Izzard's 'Dress to Kill' before I finally smacked my forehead and said, 'no kidding, eh? Trans? Me? Hmm.' Then again, that's me: thicker than two short planks.
Haha! Me too... can often be a bit slow on the uptake.
So like... you knew there was something different about you... but it took some affirmation to truly realise the extent?


I never thought it was weird, really. But then up until recently (like, the last 6 months or so) I've never really given much thought to my thoughts. Never psychoanalysed myself. Never questioned whether what I was feeling was 'normal' or 'usual' or 'weird' or 'quirky' or whatever. I just... accepted whatever thoughts I had.
Yeah, I was like that too. Even though I am the kind of person that gives myself a really hard time... I knew that I WASN'T "weird" or "a freak" and that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what I was doing. I thought it was all part of growing up and learning about myself.


I've never, EVER seen myself as a girl, never been comfortable with other people thinking of me as one.
I know that feeling. It feels a bit ... (bugger, can't think of the word)... anyway the word means "makes you feel less-than"
The only time I like people thinking I'm a girl... is actually in a boyish way.
I think it's confusing for me because if I was a boy I'd sometimes be campy and girly anyway. Sometimes it's almost like I'm a male crossdresser with a female body!... so you might think, like my mum says "But you should be really happy then...!" but no... because this male crossdresser is just that... a crossdresser... someone happy with having a male body lol!
This does also confuse the issue somewhat!


When I was very young, and my grandma would say I was pretty or dainty or fragile, I'd just squirm uncomfortably and think 'Oh god not this again. Better change the subject.' Just figured that was who I was. I never thought about whether I was different from the other girls or boys, I just stayed away from them as best I could.
Poor 'brax. I hate feeling squirmy!! Oh bless you.


Apparently they thought I was different, cos by the end of first recess I was always bruised or bleeding. Didn't think anything of it, as far as I remember. Just saw myself as a target, never gave much thought as to why. I'm talking too much about stuff people aren't interested in. *shut up, Ben!*
No no I am interested! It's interesting how many of us did get bullied at school for being different. And boy I'd like to smack those bullies in the mouth.
How could they be so mean to such lovely people (after reading Adam's thing yesterday and this today). How dare they. Poor little Abraxas :( :cry:
*gives mini-abraxas a big brotherly hug*


It's a curse: I'm dense AND talkative. And in a very weird mood, if ya hadn't noticed...
Haha I like it when you're in this kind of mood, I enjoy your posts!
And you're hardly dense! lol!


Oh, and Poc (as an afterthought, but actually a beforethought, just thought I should answer the question properly (sort of) first)... Yeah, you're a hottie. Don't make me say it again. I don't do the whole compliment thing. Nor do I flirt.
Hahaha! Errmmmm thanks :blushing: :o


Wow. I am really in a very weird mood. I'll probably read over this tomorrow and wonder if I'd taken a lot of drugs and just don't remember. Sobriety is a strange thing...
:dance:
Drugs are bayadd.... m'kay?! :p
Sobriety... ahh the stone cold smack in the face of sobriety! (Kidding!)
:heehee:


[edit: Haha cr*p, I'm sorry.. I have just realised that my original question is a little ambiguous! Sh*t!
Er basically roughly the 1st half was about transgender/transexual and the 2nd half was just mainly about transexual.....derrrr what a d*ck! Sorry If my answers seemed a bit loopy! lol!]

[CaptLex]

Wow. I am really in a very weird mood. I'll probably read over this tomorrow and wonder if I'd taken a lot of drugs and just don't remember. Sobriety is a strange thing...
Sorry this is off-topic, but I just have to tell you, Abraxas . . . I enjoy your sense of humor anyway, but when you're rambling, it's even funnier, dude (and makes good sense to me). In fact, I find that most people make perfect sense when they do ramble (or maybe it's the way my strange brain understands things). Anyway, don't change a thing. :tongueout

[Kieron Andrew]

Sorry this is off-topic, but I just have to tell you, Abraxas . . . I enjoy your sense of humor anyway, but when you're rambling, it's even funnier, dude (and makes good sense to me). In fact, I find that most people make perfect sense when they do ramble (or maybe it's the way my strange brain understands things). Anyway, don't change a thing. :tongueout
Capt????.......................................... ......

You're rambling :tongueout :roflmao:

[tommi]

I'm just glad to see that it isn't a mtf thing. I do think for some ftm it is harder
to recognize what is going on because outward expression and dress can be
writen off as so many different things, but if Tommi goes out wearing a dress
and heals there is no way anyone who knows him isn't going to know.
Where as the ftm can blend in and over time let her male pshyci take over.
Great thread for thought Poco.:hugs: Tommi

[pocoyo]

Thanks Tommi! :)

***

Everyone -

Ooops, oh my goodness!
I have just realised that this question and my answers are a bit hard to follow! I'm sorry! What a thicky!

I should have made it clear that there were differences in what I was questioning.
Basically, roughly the 1st half relates to being transgender/transexual...
And the 2nd half is roughly just mainly related to being transexual!

Bloody slow poc!!

Sorry if my answers seemed a little loopy!
I'm so dumb....because I didn't realise how my question sounded, I didn't quite realise what I was answering to. E.g. a lot of you were probably just talking about being transgender and having gender confusion, and I was answering as if you were talking about being transexual, definitely decided on transitioning.

(Feel free to roll your eyes here).


(See Adam? I told you I have a problem with thinking!)



[Edit: sh*t... at least I think there was a difference in what I was asking.
I'm so confused! I suppose it's more confusing because of course there isn't a clear divide between being transgender and transexual.]

[pocoyo]

Still trying to figure out what the heck I meant and what I am confused about!.....

Ok so I think that my question was put really craply!
It was a bit of a ramble.

I should probably have seperated the issues of....


Female bodied people & is it harder for them to know they have (any) issues with gender.

Knowing... that you are transgender.

Knowing... that you are transexual.


Like as seperate questions... not all just the same one.


I tell ya... I have been spending far too much time staying up late flirting with those rambunctious wenches. They are a bad influence! :D

[Kate Simmons]

I knew what you meant Poc. It's always assumed by society that women enjoy being women and have no issues in this regard, so it's much harder for someone who is born a genetic female to determine the issue for themself sometimes. On the other hand, society can't figure out why a man would want to be or look like a woman but in the case of many genetic men who feel this way, it's more obvious to them that their feelings and appearance don't match who they are. It has a lot to do with society's conditioning of us more than anything. Those of us who have seen past this "facade" have more of an advantage in defining their identity than some do.:happy:

[pocoyo]

Yes that's what I was probing at (:yikes:) in the 1st part of the question. :happy:
Thanks for your answer Sal!

*quotes Blackadder...
'The wise woman... the WIIIISE WOMAN?'
'Yes... the wise woman....'
'Two things must ye know of the wise woman.... first, she is a woman... second....'
'She is wise?'
'Oh... so you do know 'er then?...' * lol!

[Abraxas]

:D Thanks Poc. Yeah, erm... Yeah! The analogy, if that's the right word (it isn't) , that I've come up with is that I'm a FTMTF sometimes. :heehee: I wanna be David Bowie! Or Eddie Izzard. Yes, Izzard. Campy, silly gay (not that Izzard is camp or gay) man who sometimes throws on some lovely eyeliner and prances about in leather trousers with a feather boa, and is just simply lovely and fabulous and 'Oh, dahhhling you're simply gooooorgeous.' Can't do that as a girl. That'd just be too close to home.
Of course, not all the time; that would really wear me out. But as a kind of 'party favour' it would be nice.

But yes, I knew that there was something 'off' but I never really put 2 and 2 together. I mean, I'd heard a bit about transvestites, crossdressers, and transsexuals, but never thought one way or another about it. Strange. I never questioned their motivations, or that I could be the same way.


And Cap, I'm glad you enjoy my rambles, even if they are very strange. :D

[ZenFrost]

Ehhh... I don't think I was really clear when I said it was something that you'd just know. I didn't mean that trans people are born knowing they're the wrong gender, I meant that a person would know what s/he prefers. For instance, I didn't know I was transgendered, but I knew I prefered wearing boys clothing. For some, they know that the breasts don't belong there or that there is something missing between their legs, for others, there's just a sense of wrongness that doesn't go away. Even if you don't actively think about it or realize your gender isn't quite right, there's a part of your subconscious mind that knows you prefer to be called 'he,' wear men's clothes, never wear makeup, work on cars, and like sports. (that's just some examples BTW)

It's not exactly a conscious knowledge that "I'm a guy," it's something that part of you knows is true. It might take years for you to realize it, but I think that some part of you (however small and buried away it was) has always known that something wasn't exactly as it should be.

I hope I clarified what I meant instead of just confusing you even more.

[pocoyo]

Aaaaaaaaaah! I totally get it now!!!

Thank you for explaining and clearing that up.
That has really helped lol :D

[kerrianna]

Ehhh... I don't think I was really clear when I said it was something that you'd just know. I didn't mean that trans people are born knowing they're the wrong gender, I meant that a person would know what s/he prefers. For instance, I didn't know I was transgendered, but I knew I prefered wearing boys clothing. For some, they know that the breasts don't belong there or that there is something missing between their legs, for others, there's just a sense of wrongness that doesn't go away. Even if you don't actively think about it or realize your gender isn't quite right, there's a part of your subconscious mind that knows you prefer to be called 'he,' wear men's clothes, never wear makeup, work on cars, and like sports. (that's just some examples BTW)

It's not exactly a conscious knowledge that "I'm a guy," it's something that part of you knows is true. It might take years for you to realize it, but I think that some part of you (however small and buried away it was) has always known that something wasn't exactly as it should be.

I hope I clarified what I meant instead of just confusing you even more.

I'm glad you clarified that Zen. I was wondering myself. I'm really curious as to 'clues' or 'signs' that one is TG (FTM or MTF) - cuz I'm not sure where I fit in at all. That made a lot of sense. Certainty is such a rare thing in life so when I see it expressed I wonder, but I see how it works in this case. Thank you.





I tell ya... I have been spending far too much time staying up late flirting with those rambunctious wenches. They are a bad influence! :D

Oh, yeah, WE are the bad influence!....hmmm, actually, maybe you're right. Oh well, too bad for you - sleep is overrated anyway. :D

[Dasein9]

Yeh, Zen... I remember being secretly happy when people thought I was a boy. But since it seemed to mortify my mother so much, I was ashamed of being happy about that. So I kept it a "secret" but still tried to get that reaction from strangers.

[Kristen Kelly]

Being soft and kind and caring and even feminine sometimes.. does not make one FEMALE!

That same thought works well for me too being a TG MTF I question myself often, who am I, why am I like this. We have not chosen this lifestyle we were born to it, and as soon as we come to grips with ourselves the sooner our lives will be meaningful and have direction.

Great thread for thought Poco

[bi_weird]

You know, I was thinking about gender differences. I'm a middle child as well as female (well, at least somewhat female). My mom is also the middle child, and she's been a huge role model. Middle children tend to be peace keeprs and quiet, and women are trained similarly also. With two generations of influence there, I've ended up very quiet. It's really hard for me to stand up for myself, or make waves. I wonder how much that has influenced my experience, and if something similar applies to some girls. I remember when my dad taught my brothers to tie a tie, and I insisted on being included. He said something about needed to tie my future husbands tie, and consented. I was so mad that I wouldn't be allowed to wear a tie, but too quiet by a long shot to say anything about it. There have been a lot of situations like that in my life, where I've wanted to do something guyish, but didn't have a strong enough personality to actually do it.
Do you think the way we train people also leads to this difference in trans habits? Girls are told all their lives in subtle ways to be quiet and helpful and not make waves. Guys are supposed to stand up for themselves. I'll be the first to admit that gender divide is part of why it took me so long to figure out I'm bi, and then even longer to start exploring my gender. I just didn't feel like I was allowed to do it, 'cause I'm not supposed to cause problems.

[Dasein9]

LOL, about the tie tying, Bi! I think that was a rationalisation for himself. Does he really want you to marry a guy who's too helpless to tie his own tie?

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Obviously I can't speak to the FTM experience, but coming at it from the other side, I suspect that it's probably harder for FTMs to be self-aware that the discomfort they're feeling is related to trans issues.

That's because the still (unfortunately) unequal status of men and women makes it harder to separate out the social aspects -- i.e. being envious of masculine privilege vs. seeing oneself as a man and wanting to others to see you that way. Or realizing that sometimes penis envy really is penis envy, and not just a metaphor for wanting the greater freedoms and opportunities men often have.

Likewise, it's easier for female-bodied people to not see themselves engaging in gender-cross behavior. For a MTF to put a dress, you've got to acknowledge you're doing something out of the ordinary. Whereas a female-bodied person dressing in men's clothing can cite any number of "acceptable" reasons for doing so (comfort, practicality, etc.) Which might in fact be relevant -- but which can also make it harder to acknowledge to themselves that they're also doing it for gender crossing reasons. Transman sociologist Aaron Devor once did a study on women who were so masculine in appearance and behavior that they were mistaken for men. Very few of them viewed themselves as trans (some did identify as butch), but they saw themselves as simply being "not girly" rather than "masculine."

[MJ]

hi poc
this thread is a lot of reading my head hurts , so is it harder for you "born female ". i don't think so, as i have known as far back as i can remember that i should have been a girl, that i was different, i was just stubborn and would not give in to the fem side. until i just could not fight it anymore. is it the same thing for you and your brothers here ? i wish i had the courage to have come out sooner. i guess the question i am asking is have you always known you were a guy? and so like me try to live in both genders until your true self won the battle. or do you feel like you still fight the good fight with yourself?
in a lot of ways we are the same, we have to tell our family's we want to change our gender, and the heart ace and pain we go through and then when it is said and done , do you keep asking your self's is this right am i doing the right thing ? even after years of "t" or "hrt" , hell i go for my letter march 17 for srs !!
so for me i am more comfortable with my "new life" i would not want to go back , i was so unhappy there . so i think that many people have told me " whatever makes you happy " is true...
so what happens in 4 or 5 years from now ? would you still be happy ? or would you want to be turned back into a girl, and for the m2f turn back into a guy ?
wow this is deep sorry i don't know what came over me, does this make sense?
hugs Marissa

[kerrianna]

You know, I was thinking about gender differences. I'm a middle child as well as female (well, at least somewhat female). My mom is also the middle child, and she's been a huge role model. Middle children tend to be peace keeprs and quiet, and women are trained similarly also. With two generations of influence there, I've ended up very quiet. It's really hard for me to stand up for myself, or make waves. I wonder how much that has influenced my experience, and if something similar applies to some girls. I remember when my dad taught my brothers to tie a tie, and I insisted on being included. He said something about needed to tie my future husbands tie, and consented. I was so mad that I wouldn't be allowed to wear a tie, but too quiet by a long shot to say anything about it. There have been a lot of situations like that in my life, where I've wanted to do something guyish, but didn't have a strong enough personality to actually do it.
Do you think the way we train people also leads to this difference in trans habits? Girls are told all their lives in subtle ways to be quiet and helpful and not make waves. Guys are supposed to stand up for themselves. I'll be the first to admit that gender divide is part of why it took me so long to figure out I'm bi, and then even longer to start exploring my gender. I just didn't feel like I was allowed to do it, 'cause I'm not supposed to cause problems.

That's a really good point Bi.

Girls are told not to make waves, so this must keep them one step behind in IDing gender conflict. I think that is probably a huge issue. Guys just feel free to go ahead and blunder thru the world. Girls are 'supposed to' look after everything and clean up the mess. I can see that as being a big block on the road to any kind of self identification.

Being a middle child just makes it worse. I'm a middle child and I am the problem solver, conflict resolver in the family (cuz I can see the older and younger?).

Let's start a middle child thread....
MIDDLE CHILDREN - STAND UP FOR...oh, what?...oh....sorry...no...no...that's ok....we'll be ok.