Heavy Stuff - Theories [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Helana

02-01-2005, 05:45 AM

I read a home journal the other day from a CDer who was convinced about the hormone wash theory to describe why we are the way we are. Of course he did not explain why he was so convinced. I personally think that the hormone wash theory is a cop-out and does nothing to explain ourselves. If we cannot work out our origins ourselves then what hope do we have in making others understand.

So below I have written some thoughts about why the hormone wash theory makes no sense and also I lay out my own theory which I think stands up to scrutiny. This post is a long one so please set aside 5 minutes of your time then I would be grateful if you can answer the poll as well as poke holes in my rationale. I do hope that many will agree with me though – I think it is a neat theory, maybe too neat. :confused:

Debunking the Hormone Wash Theory

I believe gender dsyphoria is a behavioral dysfunction and has nothing to do with the level of hormones foetesus are exposed to in the womb. Lets examine some facts first which would indicate that cross-dressing develops in the mind not the womb.

A baby does not develop a fully functioning brain while inside the womb, if it did then its head would be too large to pass down the birth canal. Instead babies are only born with the primitive brain parts necessary for survival. The important part of the brain, the cerebrum, is our learning center and this develops in babies after birth outside the womb. That is why babies are unable to do anything in the first year, they are waiting for the brain to grow so that they can begin learning.

Now gender is a human creation. Human society determines what characteristics are feminine, which are masculine. These are usually based on physical and practical measures. Creating gender rules was a useful tool in human evolution. By deciding the roles and behavior of the two sexes, society provided growing children with a framework that correlated with their physical characteristics and meant each person knew what was expected of them – both in behavioral terms and their roles in society. There was no need for each child to reinvent the wheel in determining how they should behave and fit into society, the answers were given to them in gender rules. Unfortunately this inevitably meant a loss in individuality.

Now a newly born baby has no concept of gender, it has no learning center to learn about it. The only hormones that the baby’s developing brain is exposed to are its own hormones inside its body. It has a basic personality such as being a loud or quiet baby but learning and experience form the subtleties of a human personality, and babies have neither. As the baby’s brain grows it begins to observe, correlate, dissect and label the information to make sense of the world. It is not until about age 3 that a baby becomes aware of gender rules and full comprehension of gender roles in society does not appear until about age 6.

Since children take years to learn and understand what gender is, how can a supposed hormone wash in the womb affect their appreciation and interpretation of gender which they have learned from observation using the brain cerebrum – the part of the brain did not exist inside the womb. It is impossible that the two events can be linked.

My Theory

So why are we crossdressers?

By age 6 we are forced to transition from babies into children. Our behavioral patterns must conform to gender roles which are reinforced by our exposure to the outside world through attending school. However many children will realize that their personalities and gender roles conflict in some areas – ie boys who do not like rough or aggressive behavior and want to stay with their loving, caring mothers. This occurs in many girls too – the so-called tomboy. In fact probably the majority of children do experience mild gender dysphoria between ages 6-10 as they try to align their personalities with the pressure from society to conform to their gender roles.

Most children resolve the conflict by abandoning those traits which are deemed inappropriate. The child realizes that it is not worth the effort to swim against the flow, going with the flow is much easier and there are benefits in conformity. In the child’s mind the undesirable traits are walled off , discarded and are never revisited again for the remainder of their lives. In essence gender conformity pushes children into killing off parts of their personality. Boys become afraid of being labeled a sissy and reject anything which has feminine overtures.

Crossdressers also agree to conform to gender roles and also build a wall around these undesirable traits in our own personalities. The difference is that we find a way to bypass the gender rules. We build a secret backdoor in the wall which allows us to slip into and out of the forbidden area on the other side of the wall. For male crossdressers this means once we pass through the backdoor we enter a world of pure femininity. We decide not to discard our feminine traits but keep them well hidden and only accessible privately. But to the outside world we appear as normal gender conforming boys.

Humans are visual creatures, men even more so than woman. The basis of femininity can be accessed through the image of a woman. When we wear female clothes, we are doing so to cloak ourselves in the very essence of everything that society determines to be female.

Crossdressing is the key or trigger that unlocks the secret backdoor in the wall that we built ourselves in our heads to fence off feminine characteristics and interests which society instructed us were taboo in our childhood. When we crossdress we are in fact entering an area of pure femininity and are reconnecting with our original whole self – the part that we did not reject as society instructed us to.

An analogy would be that non-CD people agreed to cut off their left arms to conform as children. Crossdressers only pretended to cut off our left arms. They are actually still attached, secretly tucked around our back. Our left arms are not readily accessible and can only be brought out in private. To bring out your left arm in public means incurring the wrath of society for only pretending to conform all of this time. Non CD people are confused and scared when they see someone with a left arm, these people broke the ground rules and are thus a threat to society’s stability. Non CD people find it difficult to understand why anybody would want to keep their left arm anyway.

ToniB

02-01-2005, 06:18 AM

Phew Helana, that WAS long, and very deep (no comments about actresses and bishops please), but I tend to agree with you. I'm sure it's more behavioural than influenced by what happens in the womb (what is hormone wash anyway? my education is incomlpete!).
I like your "back door" analogy too. I can identify with that. I only take a few paces outside that back door on odd occasions because my wife is still out at the front, whilst the true TS locks the door behind him (her?) eventually.
Got any more theories?

Toni

Tristen Cox

02-01-2005, 06:19 AM

Unfortunately this inevitably meant a loss in individuality.
And a loss of the freedom of choice.

I agree with your theory indeed Helana. Very well written, and worth the read although a bit long, I enjoyed it. May I only add that as a transexual there is really no back door from where you are inside. The inside IS the back door and sometimes quite difficult to not show on the outside. But thats another discussion. Good post :)

Love & hugs
Tristen

ChristineRenee

02-01-2005, 07:28 AM

Tracie Lynn

02-01-2005, 07:45 AM

Helana, thankyou for your post well thought and very well writen, I dont know about brains and developement but I do know about gender asignment and being told as to where we fit in as being either male or female, as far back as I can remember abour age 4 or 5 I always enjoyed playing with girls and doing the things they did at age 6 I would have rather played tea party than cowboys and indians, but was told that little boys didnt do things like that, that little boys played with guns and trucks and were rough and tough oh and boys don't cry and what a disapointment it was to my parents when I didnt want to conform to the male role ( and who wants to disapoint their parents ) so I went out and played with guns and trucks and bit my lip and didnt cry and hated every minute of it, I found the back door at age 8 or 9 and thank God it wasnt locked it was a place that I could go for a few minutes an a time and be who I really was and not fear ridicule and perscution (so what if I had to do it in private) it was such a relief that I could let the feminine me come out and be truly happy with who I was at that moment in time befor I had to come back in and be the person that I hated so much I am sory this has gotten so long so I will close it with this 5 words in the Bible-- Uniquely Different Created He Them-- which means to me the God created every man and woman different from all others so what if I am a little different than the next man on the street or that every woman it the world doesnt fit into the same mold we were all created uniquely different for His pleasure.

I hope this makes some kind of sence to you--- it is just my rambelings and how I feel so if it dont I guess thats ok too.

KewTnCurvy GG

02-01-2005, 07:58 AM

Vickie-CD

02-01-2005, 08:11 AM

ChristineRenee

02-01-2005, 08:41 AM

Interesting thoughts and worth reading. Personaly my beliefe is one shoe does not fit all.There are so many levels of x-dressing, and so many individual reasons for it, I think it would be impossible for any theory or study to pinpoint a single reason for such a broad range. What many people do not want to hear, is that there are many behaviors that just simply do not have any conclusive answeres in the scientific and medical community. You can diesect and self analyze yourself all you want, but at the end of the day, you are still who you are.
Love to All,
VickieVickie,
That was my conclusion too after wrapping up my final session with my 3rd therapist a couple of years ago. First, trying to comprehend it all, and then trying to explain the unexplainable. (?)

Yeah...at the end of the day...you are who you are!:)

Love,
Christine

AnnaMaria

02-01-2005, 09:34 AM

I disagree.

I have been doing a lot of resurch on the subject of cd's and the "causes". So far everything I have read seems to indicate much the same thing on matter where I find it. Now I do realize that much of this research is done by the same people and simply copied but it does seem to indicatethat there has been quite a bit of time spent in search of the "truth".

For one thing, as I have said in previous posts. There is a gland in the brain that controls the hormon levels in the brain that has been medically proven to be the same in mtf cd's as it is in women. This gland controls when the body releases hormones into the blood stream. Which would indicate to me that the brain is telling the body that we need this hormone and the body is fighting to release it and simply can't because we were not born with the proper equipment to do so.

Also the idea that we are not exposed to hormones in the womb I have a hard time with just simply because before we are born we depend on mom for all of our body functions via the embilical cord. That is the reason for not giving the mother harsh drugs for anything while she is caring the baby. Thus, if the mothers hormone levels become more imbalanced than normal during pregnancy then the baby will feel the effects of that imbalance and it could cause changes in the development of the baby. As proof of this simply look at crack babies. Now the baby has never used crack but they are still born with the dependancey because the mother has it and she passed it on.

As for the timing in life of the gender role appearence, it seems to me that we begin to desplay some gender charactaristics at birth. Especially girls. Due to the fact that the body begins to produce hormones to help in the development of the body.

But I do think that the theory is just as sound as any other that has been proposed by the "professional" community and should be researched further if for no other reason than simply the fact that since it was proposed by a cd there might be some truth or insight in it that will lead us to something else that will give more insight into why we are the way we are.

As for it being a choice that is made early in life I just can't agree because if it was a choice that we made when we were young and not some uncontrolable factor that made us cd's then there would be no such thing as cd's because society would force us to accept the "norm". We are taught from early childhood that we are suppose to act a certian way and if we don't then we are "wierd". And it can't be completely influenced by our surroundings because if it was then those of us who had strong male influences as children would not become cd's because of that influence. I truly believe that our fem side is influenced more by biology than by outside influence and thus out of our control and as a result we get cd's who can not help but live with it and learn to deal with it or suffer from the attempt to hide or deny it. Though I am not convinced that it is mom's hormones that cause it due to the fact that I have heard more than one cd say that they have a child who is also a cd. Even when the child has never been directly explsed to the life and has always had a "normal" childhood. Maybe there are social issues that contribute to it but I really believe the underlying factors are actually controled more by the development of the brain than anything around us.

huggs
anna

Sharon

02-01-2005, 10:10 AM

ChristineRenee

02-01-2005, 10:39 AM

Sharon, your history is very, very similar to that of my own. Another thing I forgot to mention was that my mom was on female hormones during the time that I was conceived. I have always wondered if that contributed heavily to my femme desires. I started at age 12 too and my upbringing and environment just do not support my female explorations and tendencies as a pre-pubescent.

Sorry Helana.

Love,
Christine

Bernadina

02-01-2005, 10:40 AM

How about something a lot simpler.

Like, we are all eternal beings. We live after we die. Some of us were male and some of us were female.

Then some of us decide to come back again, to be reborn.

We carry with us impressions of our gender from past lives. We may have been female and come back as male. Our female persona is still very much alive and well and still with us.

Just like very butch females who haven't given up their male persona.

Might help explain being gay as well.

Past lives and experiences appears to be on the verge of being scientifically proven.

Anyone got any better ideas?

ChristineRenee

02-01-2005, 11:55 AM

I've often thought about this myself Bernadina. Do you think that this means that Mistress Tamara is really the Marquis De Sade???:eek:

It would explain a lot!:D (um..she hasn't got here yet has she???....ok...I'm goin' back under the bus now....SAVE YOURSELF!!!);)

letsdance GG

02-01-2005, 12:36 PM

I am new to this forum and I really don't have much of an opinion yet. I am a GG(just found out what it means from my CD'er husband) and I find the discussion very thought provoking.
I recently found out that he is a CD'er and I am surprised at my level of acceptance. We have talked alot about this and he has indicated to me that he "knew" he was different at age 8. The urge to try on girl's clothing was as he quoted "overwhelming and shaming at the same time" I can only imagine how difficult that might have been for him.
I have decided that my initial "Why ain't I freaking out over this? Am I missing something here?" is definatley not what is considered the "norm" for a GG who finds out she is married to a CD'er. Most GG I understand flip out. I didn't.
Accepting who he wishes to be has proven to be the key.
We may not really know why it has happened. It just has, so now what?
Thank you for allowing me to read and try to understand the difficulties you have faced. It truly helps me to be a better, understanding wife.

Rachel Elizabeth

02-01-2005, 01:23 PM

I saw that several responses mentioned urges early on...I know that I first felt the urge to wear my mother's clothing when I was 5. Of course, I had to secretly do it but that was no problem since I was apparently a latch key kid [didn't know that until I was in
my 40's.] I spent a lot of time alone except for Rachel.

Sure, I used to go out and play "army" but I remember never:

1. Wanting to get my hands dirty.
2. Wanting to get into a fight.
3. Wanting to play sports.
4. Wanting to do things with Dad.

I used to build model planes and would end up using my model paint to paint my finger nails. [Age 7]

I had more fun playing with my girl cousins...hopscotch, hide and seek, dress up.

When I really stop to think about it, I always played at being a "boy" but always felt like Rachel.

hmmmm.
:confused:

LaurenAnne

02-01-2005, 01:27 PM

An analogy would be that non-CD people agreed to cut off their left arms to conform as children. Crossdressers only pretended to cut off our left arms. They are actually still attached, secretly tucked around our back.

While I think there are a number of different paths which lead different men to crossdress, I thought the above analogy was spectacular.

Maddie Knight

02-01-2005, 01:48 PM

I disagree with your theory.
I see it that people dress in a variety of styles from heavy metal goths to annoraks. A goth would not wear an annorak and an annorak would not dress as a goth because they would not feel comfortable in that clothing.
The same can be said for crossdressers, we dress in a way that we feel is right for us. The only problem is this is not socialy accepted and that is why we dress in secret.
Just my thought on this subject, i'm sure there are many different theories.

Vickie-CD

02-01-2005, 02:15 PM

Priscilla1018

02-01-2005, 02:46 PM

Very thought provoking posts. I am positive that I have two personalities,
and am only now beggining to understand. Cristine...I think I need the name of a good therapist now and some more of those red and blue pills. :rolleyes:

Love and Hugs :D
Priscilla

sherri

02-01-2005, 03:14 PM

Life is astonishing in its variety, nearly infinite in its variations. And yet how we humans love to categorize things, to neatly arrange them in cubbyholes and stereotypes. How many points of subtle variation are possible in mapping genders and attributing traits? Enough to defy a slide rule, I would think.

I don't pretend to know beans about hormones and genes, or the human psyche, but my instincts attribute gender blurring to four causal phenomena, all capable separately or in combination of producing "dysphoria":

Hormonal / genetic predisposition, probably tracing back to the vagaries of DNA, natal development and synaptic (mis)firing.
Evironmental conditioning, either intentional or unintentional.
Willful adaptation at any time between pre-pubescence and the grave as a means of expressing innate or evolutionary sensibilities that transcend stereotypes.
Mental, emotional or sexual dysfunction.
I am curious as to why so many men seem to turn to crossdressing relatively late in life, often in their fifties.

Vickie-CD

02-01-2005, 04:00 PM

DonnaT

02-01-2005, 06:15 PM

Lets see if a little light reading helps:

I support the postition that we are born transgendered.

Whether it is a hormone wash, genetics, neuron brain wiring, or any combination thereof, these are being looked into. See:

http://content.gay.com/people/trans_gazebo/tg_research_000814.html

Research would need to be done on a larger scale and repeated before it would be considered conclusive.

Additionally, recent research has been conducted at UCLA. Dr. Eric Vilain has been researching human genetics and how they affect pre-natal development prior to hormones. He and his team have discovered 54 genes that link to gender. Prior to this discovery, it was believed that hormones did everything in distinguishing the body between males and females. However, these genes are activated before the SRY gene switches on. That's the gene responsible for the testosterone hormone wash in the Y chromosome.

Of the 54 genes, 18 were produced at higher levels in the male, and 36 were produced at higher levels in the female. This research could help to determine where transgender comes from. It may have everything to do with why transsexuals report feeling that they were born in the wrong body. However, as of now the research continues. Eventually we will have that answer.

NOW, regarding Helana's theory. What was it? I'm sorry, but I've read the post through several times but did not see a theory statement. I am not attacking her, nor the few of you have agreed with her, I just can't find the theory in the post.

By age 6 we are forced to transition from babies into children. Our behavioral patterns must conform to gender roles which are reinforced by our exposure to the outside world through attending school. However many children will realize that their personalities and gender roles conflict in some areas

Here is a mention of 'personalities', at age 6, and the conflict between that and their asigned birth gender results in 'gender dysphoria'.

Many CD's have indicated that they started CDing at 4 or 5. Before going to school. Some believe they should have been born a girl (boy in F2M cases).

So here's a couple questions I'd like an answer to:

Why do these children have 'personalities' that conflict with their assigned birth gender?

Consider the fact that many parents, raising a son, buys him 'boy' toys, but the boy would rather play with dolls. Why?

Why is 'gender dysphoria' a result of the conflict, instead of the conflict being a result of 'gender dysphoria' ?

In fact probably the majority of children do experience mild gender dysphoria between ages 6-10 as they try to align their personalities with the pressure from society to conform to their gender roles.

To me, it is the 'gender dysphoria' that results in the conflict between the childs 'personality' and societies idea of gender roles.

Most children resolve the conflict by abandoning those traits which are deemed inappropriate. The child realizes that it is not worth the effort to swim against the flow, going with the flow is much easier and there are benefits in conformity. In the child’s mind the undesirable traits are walled off , discarded and are never revisited again for the remainder of their lives. In essence gender conformity pushes children into killing off parts of their personality.

Just because a child conforms does not mean he/she has resolved the conflict. More than likely it will resurface. Consider all the T-girls on this forum that had the 'conflict' in their early years (3, 4, 5, 6 . . .9?) and conformed to what was expected of them, yet here they are, because the conflict was only on a time-out, and it resurfaced later in life (13, 14, . . .26 . . .50).

Crossdressers also agree to conform to gender roles and also build a wall around these undesirable traits in our own personalities. The difference is that we find a way to bypass the gender rules. We build a secret backdoor in the wall which allows us to slip into and out of the forbidden area on the other side of the wall. For male crossdressers this means once we pass through the backdoor we enter a world of pure femininity. We decide not to discard our feminine traits but keep them well hidden and only accessible privately. But to the outside world we appear as normal gender conforming boys.

So, now the term 'crossdressers' has entered into the "Theory", but there has been no discussion how or why they become 'crossdressers'. Instead we are back to the the question "So why are we crossdressers?", with no answer. If I missed the answer, please enlighten me.

(Note that this CD, me, has very few feminine characteristics, other than dressing and wearing makeup. So I have never entered a 'world of pure femininity'.)

Crossdressing is the key or trigger that unlocks the secret backdoor in the wall that we built ourselves in our heads to fence off feminine characteristics and interests which society instructed us were taboo in our childhood.

Where did these 'feminine characteristics' come from?
All through the "Theory" there is mention of conformity to ones birth gender. For a boy that means sports, playing army, fighting, etc. So, where did the 'feminine characteristics' come from?

When we crossdress we are in fact entering an area of pure femininity and are reconnecting with our original whole self – the part that we did not reject as society instructed us to.

"Our original whole self"

Does this not include that part of our selves that we were not cognizant of before birth? During the first couple of years of life?

My dad was a military man, a hunter, a fisherman, an outdoorsman. I participated in all these. I have four brothers, no sisters. Was 'all boy' up to the age of 10~12 when I started CDing.

So there was no society influence on me to cause be to be a CD. So why am I a CD? Born this way.

Consider the boy who had to undergo GRS because of a circumcision accident when an infant. The child was raised as a girl, yet she was conflicted. She didn't know why she was conflicted for quite sometime.

Why was she conflicted if the theory that our gender role is influenced by society? She killed herself once she found out.

Consider the twin girls raised exactly the same, yet one always believed she should have been born a boy, and eventually undergoes GRS. Why was she conflicted if the theory that our gender role is influenced by society?

http://www.endeavourforum.org.au/October2000-8.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25350

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=174855&page=1

So, what ever the cause, be it hormones, genetics, etc. Proof is that our Gender Identity and being transgendered is something we are born with.

Holly

02-01-2005, 08:12 PM

I pretty much agree with Sherri. I think it's dangerous to try and adopt a one-size-fits-all theroy to a system a complex as the human being. The reasons people participate in various activities are as varied as the the number of people in the world. For example, why do people walk? Some do so because they find pleasure in the activity. Some do it because it satisfies a need they have to exercise. Still others walk because they have no other means of getting from place to place. And the list could go on and on.

The reasons we dress are as numerous as there are members of this forum. Although it MAY be interesting to understand the why's of CDing I'm not convinced that there is any practical value in it for me. If I knew why, would I stop? That's not even an option for me. To me, my time would be better spent coming to a deeper understanding of who I am and celebrating my life.

All that said, Helana, I do appreciate your post and it has helped me take a deeper look inside and become more at peace with who I am. Wheather it is due to chemistry, environment, paranormal activity, or whatever, it really doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that this is the way we are. Let's celebrate that fact!

sherri

02-01-2005, 08:39 PM

To me, my time would be better spent coming to a deeper understanding of who I am and celebrating my life.
To me, threads like this make the forum worth participating in, and greater understanding does in fact make me feel better about myself and my friends.

The fact of the matter is that this is the way we are. Let's celebrate that fact!
You're absolutely right. After a certain amount of navel-gazing, we shouldn't forget to let our hair down and just dance! Can you turn the music up, and, um, get a little closer please. ;)

Melissa A.

02-01-2005, 09:08 PM

I read through all these posts, and while I appreciate everything you wrote, Helena, I'm not sure. Some of what you say does make sense. But I am not a behavioralist or any other kind of scientist, so I don't really know.

I tend to agree with Holly and Sheri. There are so many degrees of crossdressing and I would bet that there are just as many reasons. Was it Nature or Nuture for me? I simply don't know. And alot like religion, I'm pretty comfortable in saying I don't know

My attraction to not just women's clothing, but to feeling female at times, started very early,at age 4. It progressed over the years, sometimes subsided, then progressed again.

Having said that, I was never unhappy being a boy, or a man. I was always very athletic, and loved sports. and all through my young life, I loved that. and just as much loved the times when I could be a girl. There simply never was a conflict for me. Not in that sense, anyway. Today, I love being female. Often. But would never give up the things that make me one of the guys. Or the things that make me Melissa. I think both make me who I am.

As for why, I have to say, at this point, I don't care.

The only diference between my younger life and now, is that all the shame, worry, and hiding is over. And I have someone who accepts all of me.

Knowing why, I'm sure, will not make me any happier than I am, or change my behavior.

Two thoughts: If Hormones, or pre birth experiences had anything to do with this, Why is my brother, born just two years later, not a cd? (same mom!)

And if early childhood experiences had anything to do with this, why is my brother, who grew up in the same house, not a crossdresser?

My point really isnt a point. Some of you may have answers to those questions. I know I have, if I'm lucky, another 45 years left here. I am happy with who I am. I intend to enjoy this second half of my life. Being me. However that came about.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

Danny

02-01-2005, 10:43 PM

An excellently reasoned argument...very well written.

But in matters as complicated and diverse as human behavior, I am always skeptical about finding THE REASON.

I just try not to worry about it....usually quite successfully. :D

Ava Mouse

02-01-2005, 11:27 PM

There's a lot of truth in your theory, AND, I think there's a lot more to it, too. :)

Being an introvert, much of my quiet/gentle/intellectual behavior was attributed to stereotypical characteristics of girls/women. I found that dressing up in private was a fantastic way to relax and recharge my energy, so being quiet and feminine, kinda complemented each other... :)

I WOULD like to know why I CD, ... but ONLY so I can enjoy it more!

Helana

02-02-2005, 12:01 AM

Helana,

Well...time now for me to schedule an appointment with yet another therapist again! I agree with you and yet your theory doesn't really explain my experience. I had a typical 1950's and 1960's upbringing. Totally male oriented. Sports, playing "war". Friends were all male and best buds. Didn't play with girls, or play with dolls, or play house, etc. No sisters with friends to "dress" me up and embarrass me and make me feel "girly." All my role models, grandfather, father, older brother, were manly and not femme in any way and chauvinistic as well. So..."Lucy...you got some s'plainin' to do!":confused:

I'll go and call my 4th therapist now while awaiting your reply Helana.:o

*now...say thank you to Helana, Christine!*

THANKS HELANA!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Hi Christine

Did not mean to cause you any trouble!! :)

My upbringing was the same - a typical boy, no sisters, no feminine influences, played soldiers etc with my friends, ran around and had lots of fun. However deep down I was never comfortable with the male role model that I knew was awaiting me as I grew up - if given the choice I would prefer to be quiet and unassuming, let others take control, not be aggressive or dominant etc

I dont think that we can properly recall our feelings at this young age now that we are adults but I can see these issues in other children. Girls are tomboys and boys are scared of taking on male attitudes and responsibilites. They have shyed away from accepting the gender rules but are normal children and will probably end up being normal adults.

I don't think crossdressing is about us as children playing with dolls etc, it is really about us as children sensing that we dont want to become adult males because some aspects of masculinity scares us - like being sent to an army boot camp is daunting.

Instead we subconsciously cling onto our "feminine" traits which are comforting to us but we hide them away and these later appear through our crossdressing. We dont want to become "all male" but prefer staying just as we are.

Helana

02-02-2005, 12:10 AM

I disagree:

Gender is...........

Biological
Sociological
Psychological

It's a combination of all and probably some factors not even yet identified. And as for ever figuring it out, pointing to "The Reason". I don't think this will happen as I think it is just as I said a combination of factors colluding just so.

Okay, my 2 cents again (it's starting to add up grrlz:p).

hugs
kew

Hi Kew.

I agree there is no one simple answer, each person has had different influences which have lead us to being who we are. I dont agree that gender itself, although based on biological and sociological differences between the sexes, is anything but a man-made, society imposed set of rules designed to give us specific roles and control our behaviour.

After all why should the color pink be feminine? What biological and sociological forces decided that? ;)

Helana

02-02-2005, 12:14 AM

Vickie,

Yeah...at the end of the day...you are who you are!:)

I think my theory says that you had already worked that out for yourself at age 6 which is why you ultimately became a crossdresser. See, you just did not realise you had the answer inside you all the time. Obviously you could think clearer when you were 6 because everything was black and white then :D

windycissy

02-02-2005, 12:15 AM

Fascinating theory, Helana, it struck a chord with me. Reading the comments of others suggests that a "one size fits all" theory will be eternally elusive, but as I say this works for me. For those who lean towards the prior lives theory, this may be of interest:

http://snurl.com/lostintime

Helana

02-02-2005, 12:38 AM

Also the idea that we are not exposed to hormones in the womb I have a hard time with just simply because before we are born we depend on mom for all of our body functions via the embilical cord. That is the reason for not giving the mother harsh drugs for anything while she is caring the baby. Thus, if the mothers hormone levels become more imbalanced than normal during pregnancy then the baby will feel the effects of that imbalance and it could cause changes in the development of the baby. As proof of this simply look at crack babies. Now the baby has never used crack but they are still born with the dependancey because the mother has it and she passed it on.

I agree that hormonal imbalances in the womb can change a baby's development and this is most probably the root cause of primary transsexuals who display profound gender dysphoria as soon as they can walk and talk. But these cases are rare and are not related to crossdressers who are completely normal boys until at some point usually around 6-12 years old they realise they are different. Why would a hormonal imbalance in the womb only cause a reaction 10 years later to children who want to find a way around the gender rules created by society?

As for the timing in life of the gender role appearence, it seems to me that we begin to desplay some gender charactaristics at birth. Especially girls. Due to the fact that the body begins to produce hormones to help in the development of the body. What gender roles does a new born baby display?

As for it being a choice that is made early in life I just can't agree because if it was a choice that we made when we were young and not some uncontrolable factor that made us cd's then there would be no such thing as cd's because society would force us to accept the "norm". We are taught from early childhood that we are suppose to act a certian way and if we don't then we are "wierd". And it can't be completely influenced by our surroundings because if it was then those of us who had strong male influences as children would not become cd's because of that influence.
Crossdressers are forced to accept the norm, that is why we were usually undetectable as children, but we privately/subconsciously subverted conforming to gender roles. Strong male influences are not important in crossdressing, it is whether the boy wants to accept the adult male role model or if he feels there is a conflict with that role and his own personality.

Maybe there are social issues that contribute to it but I really believe the underlying factors are actually controled more by the development of the brain than anything around us.
Except the thinking part of the brain which interpretets gender roles develops outside the womb and thus is only exposed to the boy's own terstosterone. If it were really mostly hormonal in nature than why does our crossdressing behavior not appear throughout our entire childhood?

Helana

02-02-2005, 12:55 AM

Since I can only speak on my own history, I need to disagree with this theory Helana, although I'm sure it is valid in your case. I don't think there is one set rule for why we become transgendered.
Until I reached puberty, or at least thereabouts, I lived a typical boys life, never having any desire to play any so-called "girls" games. At around age twelve or so, I had this sudden and unexplainable urge to try on some of my older sister's clothing that had been left lying in the bathroom we shared. She had been leaving her clothes lying around for quite some time, but for some reason, on this particular day, it dawned on me that I wanted to see what it was like to put them on. My urges have only grown since then.
I lived a very sheltered life back then, totally unaware of anyone who wore the clothing of the opposite sex. For several years, I thought I was a freak, totally unique in this frightening desire of mine. Hence, I pretty much eliminate learned behavior from my own TG history.
I have come to the conclusion that some mis-alligned genetic "connection" was triggered when my hormones began surging. While I was happy with the changes being made in my male body, I also had this other side of me emerge, which has only grown stronger as I've come to understand myself and have grown accepting of who I am.
It would be interesting to find out exactly what it is that makes me who I am, but I doubt it will ever happen, and I doubt it would even matter.

Hi Sharon, thanks for sharing your background with us. I don't agree that your history does conflict with my theory!

My theory does not need you to play girly games and assumes that you will develop as a normal boy playing male games. It assumes that you will conform to the male role model. However the fact that you did suddenly wonder what it was like to wear your sister's clothing shows that you did not fully accept the male role model or else you would never have worn your sister's clothes! If you had fully accepted the male gender rules you would have stayed clear of any "sissy" behaviour like the plague! Since you did crossdress this shows you had a flexible understanding of your gender role - what I call the secret backdoor that allowed you to slip into forbidden femininity which you must have a desire to experience.

There is a strong link between puberty and crossdressing, this is the time when we become acutely aware of the gender/sexual differences. I think most crossdressers would say puberty was the time when their crossdressing thoughts really came to the fore.

Helana

02-02-2005, 01:10 AM

The reasons we dress are as numerous as there are members of this forum. Although it MAY be interesting to understand the why's of CDing I'm not convinced that there is any practical value in it for me. If I knew why, would I stop? That's not even an option for me. To me, my time would be better spent coming to a deeper understanding of who I am and celebrating my life.

All that said, Helana, I do appreciate your post and it has helped me take a deeper look inside and become more at peace with who I am. Wheather it is due to chemistry, environment, paranormal activity, or whatever, it really doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that this is the way we are. Let's celebrate that fact!

Its ok Holly, I am just trying to be controversal :D

I agree that we need to celebrate what we are, but I think the rest of the population want to understand why we are the way we are. If we cannot give them solid, understandable theories then they will forever just label as as wierdos and perverts. You cannot expect them to just agree to accept you just because you ask them to.

So while it may not be important to us personally, others will want to know so that they can switch their label from pervert to person who did not fully conform to gender roles during their childhood and seeks to reconnect with feminine feelings by crossdressing.

Helana

02-02-2005, 01:41 AM

NOW, regarding Helana's theory. What was it? I'm sorry, but I've read the post through several times but did not see a theory statement. I am not attacking her, nor the few of you have agreed with her, I just can't find the theory in the post.

Thanks Donna for your viewpoint. My theory is that crossdressers (not transsexuals) are created not through hormonal or brain imbalances but by a subconscious rejection to fully conform to the male role model. My theory does not apply to primary transsexuals - sorry I did not mention that.

Why do these children have 'personalities' that conflict with their assigned birth gender? Because everyone has personalities that have both masculine and feminine traits as defined by society. Gender roles force us to reject some traits to conform to the male role model - ie do not be a sissy.

Consider the fact that many parents, raising a son, buys him 'boy' toys, but the boy would rather play with dolls. Why? In my theory this may be a transsexual indicator, few crossdressers played with dolls as children. If the child is young, they are still too innocent of the gender differences and do not understand what the problem is. If the child is old and still plays with dolls then this is probably a transsexual or someone who simply refuses to conform at all.

Just because a child conforms does not mean he/she has resolved the conflict. More than likely it will resurface. Consider all the T-girls on this forum that had the 'conflict' in their early years (3, 4, 5, 6 . . .9?) and conformed to what was expected of them, yet here they are, because the conflict was only on a time-out, and it resurfaced later in life (13, 14, . . .26 . . .50). Thats exactly what my theory says as well - that the conflict is not resolved in that they never fully reject their gender confoming and it resurfaces later.

So, now the term 'crossdressers' has entered into the "Theory", but there has been no discussion how or why they become 'crossdressers'. Instead we are back to the the question "So why are we crossdressers?", with no answer. If I missed the answer, please enlighten me. I did provide the answer - the female image represents all things feminine so dressing in female clothes is the trigger to reverse the male model conformity and connect with hidden female traits.

Where did these 'feminine characteristics' come from?
All through the "Theory" there is mention of conformity to ones birth gender. For a boy that means sports, playing army, fighting, etc. So, where did the 'feminine characteristics' come from? You believe that boys are not loving, compassionate, caring, crying people? We are all a mixture of gender characteristics

My dad was a military man, a hunter, a fisherman, an outdoorsman. I participated in all these. I have four brothers, no sisters. Was 'all boy' up to the age of 10~12 when I started CDing.

So there was no society influence on me to cause be to be a CD. So why am I a CD? Born this way. Just like myself and many other crossdressers, we did not have feminine influences so we are not reacting to external influences but are instead rejecting conforming fully to the male role model expected of us and removing all "sissy" traits forever from our personality.

Consider the boy who had to undergo GRS because of a circumcision accident when an infant. The child was raised as a girl, yet she was conflicted. She didn't know why she was conflicted for quite sometime.

Why was she conflicted if the theory that our gender role is influenced by society? She killed herself once she found out. We cannot make conclusions from one specific case, we do not know the details - there could be a myriad of reasons why she was conflcited.

Consider the twin girls raised exactly the same, yet one always believed she should have been born a boy, and eventually undergoes GRS. Why was she conflicted if the theory that our gender role is influenced by society? Sorry Donna but you did not understand my theory. Each person decides for themselves if they feel comfortable conforming to their gender role. It is an internal decision quite devoid of outside influences. Twin girls can reach their own separate decisions!

Helana

02-02-2005, 02:16 AM

Just a quick note. I just wanted to say thanks to everybody who has contributed. I am happy to continue this thread and comment on more responses but I dont want this to deteriorate into arguments. I know there are other theories out there which people believe in and I did not expect to change anybody's minds but I hope I did provoke you into thinking about yourself and what crossdressing means to you.

I dont believe for a second that my theory is a catch-all and does not cover primary transsexuals, but I believe that many, perhaps the majority, of crossdressers did develop along the path I outlined. My simple poll also would indicate the majority here feel there is some truth in what I have said.

The nice thing about my theory is that it is a positive one for us crossdressers. We are not just a chance or freak of nature, my theory suggests that unknowingly (subconsciouly) we decided ourselves to reject full conformity and took a path which later developed into crossdressing. We did something which the majority of the population did not do, we (bravely)rebelled and decided to keep in touch with the feelings, emotions and attractions to things which we liked ie - those traits which society has decided to label feminine. We are crossdressers because we choose to be, because we are true to ourselves even though it can causes distress in our normal lives where we have conform to gender roles :cool:

sherri

02-02-2005, 05:42 AM

I am happy to continue this thread and comment on more responses but I dont want this to deteriorate into arguments Helana, if we as a group can't talk — and talk at length — about stuff like this without worrying about arguments, then we're a sad bunch. Debate, even spirited debate, is a good thing. The lighter topics are great, but honestly, there's only so much I care to say or hear about clothes before I start drumming my fingernails. Thank you for starting this thread, and thanks to the ladies who have lent their thoughtful replies. There's nothing wrong with having to clarify yourself with additional comments. It's called dialogue. Furthermore, as someone else (can't remember who, maybe Julie York) said a few days ago, it is also okay to allow oneself to be persuaded.

Back on topic: your theory is well-stated and valid. Donna's comments are well-stated and valid, as are those of other contributors. More importantly, they are not mutually exclusive opinions, and this is not a zero-sum issue. Different people choose to blur or cross gender lines for different reasons.

The distinction you make between TSs and CDs is an important one in the context of this discussion insofar as TSs may experience a greater degree of gender conflict attributable to genetic/hormonal makeup. In their cases, crossdressing is only a phase on the path to radical gender reassignment. Conversely, I suspect that a great many CDs are as you describe — their choice is a rather willful one in the absence of insurmountable conflict. I think I'm a good example of that. But I also strongly suspect that conscious, willful choice isn't the whole explanation.

Certainly some instances of crossdressing can be accurately described as nothing more complex than a fetish, a sexual or emotional diversion that is relatively superficial and harmless enough. Truthfully, I suspect this is the case more often than many of its practitioners would care to admit, especially when there is a progressive/compulsive aspect that at some point might legitimately be thought of as disorder. As with other types of fetishists, some pretty convoluted rationalizing can take place to accomodate their "hobby", although some can be refreshingly candid about it.

For other CDs, I believe an "explanation" lies somewhere between hormonal/psychological makeup and willful choice. (Bear with me, because this is difficult to communicate.) In other words, my actual "gender makeup" might blur the line between conventional traits and roles, but I could at any time elect to suppress or express outward manifestations of my psyche and gender without unduly harming myself or causing myself insurmountable problems. But when I do elect to express a cross-gender persona, I am tapping into a predisposition that runs deeper than conscious choice, that is chemical and/or psychological in nature, and constitutes a fuller, more accurate expression of my identity and sensibilities.

Describing this third type of crossdresser leads to what I think is an important clarification. It is interesting that when we choose to outwardly express femininity, we adopt feminine clothing, makeup, etc. If evolutionists are to be believed, there was a time when the differences between the sexes amounted to little more than size, breasts and genitalia. We could, in modern times, likewise elect to express femininity without changing clothes or outward appearance. The fact that we do is an effort, I think, to make a declaration that society will recognize, that adopts and reflects the rather artificial social and cultural standards that have become something like conditioned reflexes. Sure, the clothes feel good, and it's fun to cast off the drab restrictions of acceptable male couture, but it is still about cultural standards. If all us humans had been dressing androgynously for a few centuries, how would "crossdressers" express themselves? And it is interesting that the same standards we are responding to condemn our behavior.

Does that mean I think we should give up dressing? Nope. I love my skirt.

Let me also say that these thought processes can also be brought to bear on issues unrelated to gender and sexuality. Let me give you a real-life example of what I'm talking about:

For a large portion of my young adulthood, extending into early mid-life, I caromed through a variety of jobs for which I was competent but ill-suited because they made little use of my natural talents, abilities and sensibilities. Consequently I was not happy, which in turn caused me to think a great deal about how our identities are intertwined with what we do for a living. Nevertheless, I could have continued on in this way for the rest of my life, making a living and, for all outward appearances, doing fine. But at some point I had had enough and I made the concious decision to make a major career change, completely shifting industries and craft to something that better suited my natural talents. It was not easy, and it took some time, and I probably won't advance as far as I would had I made the choice from the outset of my working life, but it was the right choice.

Helana

02-02-2005, 11:10 PM

Sherri

Many thanks for your thoughts, you obviously have pondered alot about this issue too. The range of transgenderism is wide and we humans are a complicated melting pot of thoughts and emotions. Usually this means we cannot see the wood for the trees so it is best to step back and have a good look at ourselves from afar.

We have to take responsibility for our decisions and actions. Even if you believe in the nature theory, it is still your decision to act on your crossdressing desires. You control your own destiny, you have choices.

So I truely believe that we have to take ownership of our CD personality and understand that, at the end of the day, we choose to crossdress, nobody else is forcing us.

DonnaT

02-02-2005, 11:42 PM

My theory is that crossdressers (not transsexuals) are created not through hormonal or brain imbalances but by a subconscious rejection to fully conform to the male role model. My theory does not apply to primary transsexuals - sorry I did not mention that.

Thanks Helena.

If the rejection was a subconscious rejection how could that ever be proven?

At least the differences in brain makeup can be researched and prooved or disprooved.

Can I ask why 'transexuals' are left out of the theory?

Helana

02-03-2005, 12:06 AM

Thanks Helena.

If the rejection was a subconscious rejection how could that ever be proven?

At least the differences in brain makeup can be researched and prooved or disprooved.

Can I ask why 'transexuals' are left out of the theory?

Donna - when it comes to the human mind - nothing can be proven. Even if science detects differences in brain make-up that does not prove anything either, as there is no way to predict how a person behaves and thinks by looking at brain patterns or hormone levels. The complexity of the brain goes way beyond our present capabilities and knowledge to understand it. If hormones and brain wiring had a uniform and predictable effect then we would not see the huge spectrum of individuality and personality within men and women.

Also the brain is forever changing, make new connections and breaking old ones and can re-route functions if one part becomes damaged. Any claims that transgenderism behavoir can be identified inside the brian are false as areas that deal with emotions etc evolve and shift around the neural network. Theories are only theories and most are usually proven inaccurate later on. Maybe in a hundred years we can be more certain, but for now it is little more than guesswork.

I left out primary transsexuals because these individuals' gender dysphoria appears at the same time as they become conscious of themselves. They never grew up as normal boys who later turned to crossdressing. In their case I would agree that there must be physical differences in their brains formed either in the womb or perhaps by external stimulants after birth.

angieSP

02-03-2005, 12:27 AM

Helana, I disagree with the hormone theory. There are many paths that have led us here. From personal experience I would have to say mine is from classical conditioning. My father worked all the time, my sister was 13 years older than me, and was at college when I was 5. My mother was my only role model. A piece in the puzzle? :o

DonnaT

02-03-2005, 12:40 AM

I respect your opinion, but can't agree with it, based on my own experinces :)

In their case I would agree that there must be physical differences in their brains formed either in the womb or perhaps by external stimulants after birth.

I don't see how a TS's brain can be transgendered but a CD's can't. If it's possible for one it should be possible for both.

Nikki A.

02-03-2005, 12:57 AM

How do you explain those who were raised as the opposite sex from birth due to anomalies or accident and yet never felt comfortable as such.
Why we do what we do I can't explain and I'm sure there are many reasons as to why. As far as those who start later in life, I have a theory, the feelings have always been there but you repress them because it was not "normal", however with age comes "wisdom" and you start to question what is normal and what feels right to you.

sherri

02-03-2005, 02:06 AM

We have to take responsibility for our decisions and actions. Even if you believe in the nature theory, it is still your decision to act on your crossdressing desires. You control your own destiny, you have choices.

So I truely believe that we have to take ownership of our CD personality and understand that, at the end of the day, we choose to crossdress, nobody else is forcing us.
Generally speaking, I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I consider this to be a huge point with practical, ethical and moral implications. I believe the vast majority of CDs do have choices, and not all of them exercise those choices responsibly. Far too many hide behind the "no cure" diagnosis, which is really only applicable to TS candidates, as a way to justify choices that are essentially self-serving, that in fact may be nothing more than obsessive/compulsive disorders.

I realize those are strong statements, and let me hasten to direct readers to my previous post for more explanation. But here's why it's important to talk about these things frankly: if we want spouses, friends, family, employers and the rest of the world to accept, or at least accomodate, our particular form of self-expression, we damn well better demonstrate that we are sensible, competent human beings capable of exercising good judgement and behaving responsibly. If we don't, we will continue to find ourselves viewed with the same perceptual revulsion with which society views sexual deviants, alcoholics, drug addicts, compulsive eaters or anyone else with an obsessive disorder.

This all goes back to a couple of threads that were posting when I joined this forum — there has to be a balance, or we will earn no one's respect. That balance starts with being honest with ourselves. Delusion can be convenient, but it is also destructive.

Sweet Susan

02-03-2005, 02:06 AM

kirsti

02-03-2005, 02:15 AM

I agree in part but also think their are and can be many other reasons that individuals crossdress.
It maybe indeed a tender years influence in some situations that suggestively puts into some developing children the female gender traits,but more importantly our species sex must inherit both female and male traits,this may at some point become a conflict of personality,our physical bodies has a unique way of repairing some major damages,and likewise our mental abilities are far more advanced than that of our physical abilities which are limited.
Men gender changes are much more abundant than of the female conflict of gender,this in itself suggests that perhapes the male species do inherit traits of both sexes ,as an example I am reminded of a male I know from another person that is very male and macho,and shows no conflict of personality,and convinces himself that he is totally heterosexual but also said he is more than willing to get head from either a female or a male,or insert so as long as neither his mouth or other orifice is entered,this I agree with you on of suppression of sex characteristics.
other reasons of suppression that is very apparent in society is the religiouse teachings embedded within our society.
Society indeed is very dangerouse because though it is defined as a standard of living set by society for society,it secretly holds many other definitions that are embedded within us,these definitions quite often are defined as rules,and more importantly morals,as we are aware that morals are the foundation of laws.
And laws are defined in differant ways as well,societies laws,and laws of nature.
These laws are quite often assumend to be correct without any investigation of its creation.
Yes men are taught to be masculine,and pretend to show affection to attract a mate for procreation,yet women have their very own unique way of acheiving a success without masculinity,contrivance,is very powerful as is guilt,so success in both sexes are apparent though each is unique,there can be no absolute adherence to any specific rule as cause,but a compilation of the whole of a total embodement of traits.
to conclude we are as each,and as each we are.

sherri

02-03-2005, 02:23 AM

:confused: :confused:

I don't know. I'm confused. How does one broadly agree or broadly disagree about such a wide subject with such a narrow selection. Maybe it's just me, it often is, but couldn't we narrowly agree if we can't broadly disagree? I like to think of myself as a broad, but my butt is too thin to be broad. Anyway, that's the skinny, as I narrowly see it. Huh? Thin mints? Yes, please......... :eek:
There there Susan, it's okay. Come sit over here by me. You see dear, we're not fighting, we're talking. And yes, do have a mint. In fact, you should have a bunch of mints ... just keep eating those mints ...

:p

Helana

02-03-2005, 03:47 AM

I respect your opinion, but can't agree with it, based on my own experinces :)

I don't see how a TS's brain can be transgendered but a CD's can't. If it's possible for one it should be possible for both.

Because in the vast majority of CDers, there is no evidence of a trangendered brain or desire to crossdress until late childhood/puberty. If your brain was transgendered at birth then you would have had gender dsyphoria every day, every year right throughout your childhood.

Helana

02-03-2005, 03:55 AM

Generally speaking, I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I consider this to be a huge point with practical, ethical and moral implications. I believe the vast majority of CDs do have choices, and not all of them exercise those choices responsibly. Far too many hide behind the "no cure" diagnosis, which is really only applicable to TS candidates, as a way to justify choices that are essentially self-serving, that in fact may be nothing more than obsessive/compulsive disorders.

I realize those are strong statements, and let me hasten to direct readers to my previous post for more explanation. But here's why it's important to talk about these things frankly: if we want spouses, friends, family, employers and the rest of the world to accept, or at least accomodate, our particular form of self-expression, we damn well better demonstrate that we are sensible, competent human beings capable of exercising good judgement and behaving responsibly. If we don't, we will continue to find ourselves viewed with the same perceptual revulsion with which society views sexual deviants, alcoholics, drug addicts, compulsive eaters or anyone else with an obsessive disorder.

This all goes back to a couple of threads that were posting when I joined this forum — there has to be a balance, or we will earn no one's respect. That balance starts with being honest with ourselves. Delusion can be convenient, but it is also destructive.

Sherri, you always able to write down these points much better than I. That is an excellent post and I agree 100% with it. Another one saved on my hard drive! :cool:

Helana

02-03-2005, 04:28 AM

I agree in part but also think their are and can be many other reasons that individuals crossdress.
It maybe indeed a tender years influence in some situations that suggestively puts into some developing children the female gender traits,but more importantly our species sex must inherit both female and male traits,this may at some point become a conflict of personality,our physical bodies has a unique way of repairing some major damages,and likewise our mental abilities are far more advanced than that of our physical abilities which are limited.
Men gender changes are much more abundant than of the female conflict of gender,this in itself suggests that perhapes the male species do inherit traits of both sexes ,.

Hi Kirsti, a warm heartfelt welcome to our forum. :)

I think both sexes inherit gender traits of each other. I know a girl who is a tomboy. For the past three years she rejected everything feminine - no skirts, dresses, frills, pink items, etc. She even got her hair cropped. She got loud and unruley, and liked playing rough and tumble. She enjoyed being boyish and played with them instead of other girls. Now puberty is arriving, she is wearing a bra and now everything has to be feminine. All she wants now are short skirts and spaghetti tops and the hair is growing long again.

You raised a good point about why CDing is predominantly a male thing. I think this has two components;
1. the male role model which society imposes upon boys is more restrictive and more terrifying and so the incidence of rejection is higher. I think "feminine" traits of love, understanding, compassion are valued more highly by both sexes than aggression, brutality, dominance, competitive "male" traits. Girls feel more at ease with their gender roles as they are a more natural way to behave. The male gender role is more at odds with a "normal" person than the female role.

2. upon puberty males find sexual fantasies to use when masturbating and crossdressers use these extensively which further engrains crossdressing into the boy's psychology. Girls on the otherhand rarely masturbate with puberty and do not develop sexual fantasies until they actually begin experiencing sexual relationships. Instead they cling to romantic fantasies.

Rachel Ann

02-03-2005, 05:54 AM

Helana

I disagree with your overall conclusions, but agree with you on many specifics. We may end up having to agree to disagree on this.

The nature vs. nurture argument has been raging for a long time and shows no signs of being resolved any time soon. The DNA boys and girls are starting to shed some new light on things, but they are still basically fumbling around in the dark.

I suspect that both nature and nurture play important and intertwined roles, although the specifics may not be worked out in our lifetimes.

I personally think that the hormone wash theory is a cop-out and does nothing to explain ourselves.
Not so fast, dear! We know that the hormone wash occurs. Probably, like all biological processes, it doesn't always work perfectly. What we don't know is what the downstream affects are, pre-natal (other than governing most physiological development) or post-natal (unknown, but probable).

A baby does not develop a fully functioning brain while inside the womb, if it did then its head would be too large to pass down the birth canal.
Quite true. Actually, the cortex (which gives judgment control over impulse) does not finish developing until sometime in one's early 20s, which calls in to question the practice of prosecuting teens as adults in certain cases.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/NoodlesRomanoff/zits.jpg

Since children take years to learn and understand what gender is, how can a supposed hormone wash in the womb affect their appreciation and interpretation of gender which they have learned from observation using the brain cerebrum – the part of the brain did not exist inside the womb. It is impossible that the two events can be linked.
Far from impossible! We have absolutely no basis for knowing that the hormone wash does not have postnatal effects that affect these other processes. We just don't know yet. And, especially, we don't know what the effect of a slightly "abnormal" wash might be.

Now gender is a human creation.
That implies that TG is a "choice" or a "lifestyle". I don't think so.

Humans are visual creatures, men even more so than woman
True, and this gets back to a small part of the brain called the Amygdala. Animal evolution is very slow, and we aren't that different physiologically than we were when we lived in caves. The premise is that males select for signs of fertility in females, while females select for signs of group dominance in males. Whether this is exactly true or not, the former certainly calls for more visual cues than the latter.
(The Amygdala also plays a role in how fear is processed based on how visual stimuli are perceived as threats.

Crossdressing is the key or trigger that unlocks the secret backdoor in the wall that we built ourselves in our heads to fence off feminine characteristics and interests which society instructed us were taboo in our childhood.
Quite true! Every boy is born with an inner girl, and every girl is born with an inner boy. In most cases that is hammered in to oblivion at an earlier age, but some of us have feistier inner creatures who will not be silenced!

And yes, most of us realize that dressing is a means to an end, not the end in itself. However the shrinks are still going by the book, which says that you are either a TS with GID, or a fetish crossdresser. No alternatives are countenanced.

I don't see how a TS's brain can be transgendered but a CD's can't. If it's possible for one it should be possible for both.
Exactly! This really goes more to the politics of TS vs CD than to anything scientific.

ANYWAY, I doubt that we will come to a consensus, but this is nevertheless an engaging and fascinating thread!

sherri

02-03-2005, 01:30 PM

We may end up having to agree to disagree on this.
It's not nearly so important to agree as to learn, grow, assimilate.

I suspect that both nature and nurture play important and intertwined roles
Quite so, and I find it useful to lump both under the heading of "predisposition" in order to move on to the more practical and pressing considerations of assimilation, expression, integration and the avoidance of non-constructive behavior.

I think, however, that there is a third possiblity, which is that for some "practitioners", no significant preconditioning exists at all. Analysts would no doubt refer to this person as a fetishist, and to his interest as random. Explaining such a person's interest would be comparable to explaining other forms of sexual deviation, acquired taste, etc., most of which by their nature have the potential to elicit preoccupation or progressive immersion. An example of this might be someone's addiction to pornography, or to gambling. They may or may not be predisposed to respond to pornography or a bet, but regardless, pornography and gambling themselves have an innate power to play upon normal human instincts and proclivities. As for the person who is inclined to become addicted to something, the actual thing to think about might be addictive personality, not a predisposition for the object of the addiction.

That implies that TG is a "choice" or a "lifestyle". I don't think so.
Choice is evident clear across the spectrum. This notion of predestination is too often a rationalization, a crutch. There is a profound difference between predisposition and predestination, having everything to do with balancing self-expression with the practical realities of a responsible life. Honest, realistic choices can legitimately justify GRS, complete abstinence or something in between.

the former certainly calls for more visual cues than the latter.
This would partially explain pervasive narcissm as a sympton of crossdressing, and our preoccupation with superficial manifestations of femininity. I'm not so sure, however, that this trait is gender-specific any longer. Lesbians and FTMs seem to be as preoccupied with appearance as MTFs. Hollywood, game developers and sports are giving pretty serious nods to the "bulked-up", physically challenging females — not as a global gender redefinition perhaps, but certainly as a subset of the gender.

I wonder how crossdressers would express themselves if our culture made no physical distinctions between the sexes beyond their anatomical differences.

And yes, most of us realize that dressing is a means to an end, not the end in itself.
For the sake of clarity, would you mind elaborating on what that "end" might be?

However the shrinks are still going by the book, which says that you are either a TS with GID, or a fetish crossdresser. No alternatives are countenanced.
Such obtuseness on the part of professionals is myopic, lazy and generally deplorable. Degrees of disposition are as self-evident as full-blown GID or its total absence.

this is nevertheless an engaging and fascinating thread!
Yes it is, and I greatly appreciate your contribution, as do the others, I'm sure. This is good, useful stuff.

sherri

02-05-2005, 12:23 PM

Holly

02-05-2005, 01:42 PM

I hope I didn't kill this thread. I apologize for posting so much in it.

But I would like to ask a question because I suspect it's related to this topic and I think you intelligent ladies might have some good insight:

Why do so many crossdressers begin dressing in earnest in their later middle age years (late 40s, 50s)?
Sherri,

Don't you dare apologize. It is totally unnecessary! Now as for your question, I have wondered about this myself. I had dabbled with CDing starting in my pre-teen era. But it wasn't until later in life that I fully embraced it as a way of life. I do have a couple of thoughts...

1. Midlife Crisis- Some guys go after loose women. Others for fast cars. Me, I would never disrespect my wife in that manner. And for fast cars, they never held an interest for me (a Mazda Diesel P/U?). But one day it did dawn on me that life was passing me by and that something was missing. I was like I hadn't taken time to stop and smell the roses. But enjoying a beautiful sunset or crying at a movie were not exactly "manly" things to do. So Holly (unnamed at the time) was born. She could appreciate the beauty in things that I had completely missed. I had accomplished a lot of "stuff" but I had missed out on a lot of "things."

2. What Do I Have To Lose- By the time I realized that something was missing, I had just about accomplished everything I had intended to do (low expectations? :) ) I had a wonderful family. My career was going well. I had just about all the "toys" I wanted. I was secure financialy. I had performed on stage (once in drag, I might add). I had been a radio personality in a larger medium market. And none of this stuff could ever be taken away from me.

Also about this same time, a rather traumatic event ocured in my life which may have added additional pressure come into a deeper understanding of myself. But that's a topic for another thread! ;)

Bernadina

02-05-2005, 02:29 PM

Jan W

02-05-2005, 04:02 PM

Letsdance,

You are a rare and special person. You have the true ability to view things from another perspective than just your own. I sincerely wish that your acceptance makes your marriage even stronger and your lives even happier! Your husband is a very lucky person.

Love Jan

Jan W

02-05-2005, 05:03 PM

Dear Helana,
Thankyou for the super thought provoking thread. It is a subject I (and most others it seems) have much interest in.
I have read everything I could ever get my hands on regarding TG behaviour since I was a child. Articles on TS's and CD's popping up in womens magazines, autobiographies of TS women ( Jan Morris, April Ashley etc) I scoured any bookshop and library I could find. I would move heaven and earth to catch documentries, films or TV shows on this subject. After all this amatuer research it must put me in a position to theorise as to the cause. Probably not I suspect. I base my conclusions mainly on me and while I know that we share many feelings in the TG area we are all different.
If given the opportunity to choose a career path again it would definitily be psychology. I have come to respect the enormous power of our brains and the way in which it's makeup influences our lives.
My conclusions are such that I believe there to be an element of TG in us all, males and females. Just how strong are these TG feelings affects what we do about them. Men who are a only slightly TG might never act on a feeling at all. A little bit stronger and he may enjoy wearing a nightshirt to bed or enjoy items of male clothing a little bit on the flamboyant side. A little stronger and he may secretly try on ladies underwear etc. Now people like us with even more TG desires want to occasionally present as a woman. The fact that it is not just donning a dress but the whole presentation package indicates to me a real desire to be female. When my wife or daughters wear shorts or trousers they do not put on a man's wig, shoes, underwear and refer to themselves as Jack.
I can no more stop my dressing and fantasising than stopping my desire to be a good husband, father and a decent person. It is me.
The next stage of TG desire is obviously TS. I have read a distinction between true TS and those who only think they are TS is a true TS will transition no matter what while a non true TS will not if she believes she will make an unatractrive manly woman. This statement gives me much comfort.(I hope it is correct)
Back to hormones. Again I can only relate my opinion to my experience. I started wearing my sisters clothes at three years of age. I can vividly remember wishing to be a girl from then on. This is well before any sexual/fetish behavior could come into play so apart from my three year old brain what made me different from other little boys. I was not effeminite but when I wore a dress I gave myself a girls name and affected a girls persona - from three years of age! I have small hands and feet in spite of all the men in my family having large hands and feet. When I recently read of the female hormone DES given to pregnant woman from 1940 to 1971 a piece of the puzzle fell into place. My mother cannot tell me if she was exposed to DES or not as back then Doctors often did what they felt was best without consulting their patients.
Have just realised the length of this post, will sign off.
Thanks Helana, please remember these thoughts are nobody's but my own with no professional scientific basis.

Love Jan

sherri

02-06-2005, 12:45 AM

Holly and Dina —

Thanks for your comments. They're very interesting, and surprised me by how much they made me think. Here I've been scratching my head puzzling over what the deep psychological reasons might be, but your reasons are so practical, and they make a great deal of sense.

Still, I can't figure out why feminization didn't occur to me when I was much younger, and why it did at this point in my life. I started only two years ago, but the first time I put on heels and a skirt, it felt so ... so natural. A big "click". Like it had been there all along without my knowing it. I dunno.

dish

02-06-2005, 02:01 AM

The "disposition" is "learned" early in childhood. It may or may not be reinforced pre-adolescence. This is an interesting thread with many interesting posts, and well worth the time. More about early development however, might be more accurately revealing of a "cause" than observations from us "full grown" crossdressers. Just an observation.

TrueGemini

02-06-2005, 02:13 AM

Now gender is a human creation. Human society determines what characteristics are feminine, which are masculine.
I have to disagree with some of your theories. First of all, gender identity is a genetic fact, and although reinforced by society in the form of girlie clothes and toys, as opposed to so-called boy clothes and toys for children, the fact remains that genteticly, male and female are different. There remains a psychological difference between us men that like to dress and/or act as women, for whatever reason, and GG's that cannot be bridged without hormone therapy and/or surgery. I for one, am a man that has a feminie side that expresses "herself" as a cd. I love to make love as a man, and yet has a side that loves to be dressed as a woman, and make love as a woman. Luckily for me, I have a GG that is supportive and loves my feminie side. This is a psycological issue in my mind that has to be addressed (pardon the pun) and I believe makes me a more complete person for being able to express it. When all is said and done though, I am geneticly a man, and nothing short of the aforementioned surgery or hormone therapy will change that. If nothing else, the previous self-tests that were supposed to measure one's feminity reinforced that. I came out as a "feminie male", and while I would never admit that to my male friends is a fact that my GG finds so attractive. Conviently for her that also makes me more useful around the house. I can at least try to be Mr. Fix-it and can still wash the dishes and do the laundry.

I personally feel that our need to cd is rooted in our identification with the female side of our brains (which all guys have, like it or not), akin to being left-brained or right-brained, and sometimes with us, the need to express our female side bursts out of the stereotyped image of a man. I like dressing as a woman, and letting my guard down, and relinquishing responsibility to be a man in charge all the time, and feel that if the circumstances had been right, being the sexual role of a woman, but all things being equal, I am what I was born to be. I am so much the richer for being a man most of the time, female when the mood and circumstance are right.

ChristineRenee

02-06-2005, 02:15 AM

Hi Dish...welcome to the forum. This is an interesting thread. So many possible theories as to why we are the "special" people that we are. I'll say this...if I was "chosen" from somewhere up above to be this way, to endure more than 40 years so far of societal intolerance and ridicule, and yet feel the way I do today, that I have been given a true "gift" of insight into the human condition to where I can express the full range of human emotion and feeling...well....then it's been well worth the journey so far to this point. ;)

Very lucky and very, very, special....that's the way Christine feels about the way "she" is now!:cool:

Welcome once again to our family and to our home Dish!:)

Love,
Christine

TrueGemini

02-06-2005, 02:28 AM

How about something a lot simpler.

Like, we are all eternal beings. We live after we die. Some of us were male and some of us were female.

Then some of us decide to come back again, to be reborn.

Now this is one aspect I did not write about in a previous post, but let me write about this now...

I think this has a lot to do with this discussion as well. I had a vivid dream, if you will, that I had many years ago that has stuck with me always. I dreamt that I was I was running up a hill towards a Greek-style temple. In this dream I was definitely a girl because I could feel the white dress around my body, especially around my breasts, which were definitely "ample and full". It felt completely natural, real, and when I woke, somehow I knew that this was/had been real. So aside from from my earlier post about a genitics and the like, a perhaps "genetic memory" of what I had been in a previous life may have a lot to do with our present identity confusion. I think this may well have more weight that anything else. My GG and I often theorize that we have met in past lives, sometimes with her being the man, and me being the woman. Hey, why not?

Helana

02-07-2005, 12:04 AM

My conclusions are such that I believe there to be an element of TG in us all, males and females. Just how strong are these TG feelings affects what we do about them. Men who are a only slightly TG might never act on a feeling at all. A little bit stronger and he may enjoy wearing a nightshirt to bed or enjoy items of male clothing a little bit on the flamboyant side. A little stronger and he may secretly try on ladies underwear etc. Now people like us with even more TG desires want to occasionally present as a woman. The fact that it is not just donning a dress but the whole presentation package indicates to me a real desire to be female. When my wife or daughters wear shorts or trousers they do not put on a man's wig, shoes, underwear and refer to themselves as Jack.

Dear Jan

I have also reached the same conclusion, not only is everyone transgenedered but also bi-sexual as well. What one person is capable of, we all are - we are all potential murderers, rapists, thieves etc. The difference between individuals is the degree to which each trait is exhibited -in many cases the trait can be so slight that the person is not aware that it is there, but it is and under certain circumstances minor traits can come to the fore.

Helana

02-07-2005, 12:36 AM

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium][color=darkgreen]I have to disagree with some of your theories. First of all, gender identity is a genetic fact, and although reinforced by society in the form of girlie clothes and toys, as opposed to so-called boy clothes and toys for children, the fact remains that genteticly, male and female are different. There remains a psychological difference between us men that like to dress and/or act as women, for whatever reason, and GG's that cannot be bridged without hormone therapy and/or surgery.

Hi TrueGemini

I agree with much of what you wrote and I would like to clarify my statement about gender identity. Boys and girls and indeed genetically different and the hormones wire our brains differently so there are some basic built-in differences such as males being much active and aggressive with better eye/hand coordination etc which is genetically based. With crossdressing we are talking about much more subtle concepts of feminity - we copy how women behave - how they walk, talk, dress etc as well as their sexual role in society. These are all learned, there is nothing in our genetics which programs us to be "masculine" or "feminine" in the way our society determines these labels.

For example, if a child was brought into this world and grew up without any human contact (lets assume the child was raised by machines), would the child, whether boy or girl, have any recognizable gender identity? Would the child walk, talk, move and think and behave in a standard fashion or would the child not display a mixture of gender traits?

I always watched a program once about a South Polynesian island where the traditional practice was that if a seventh son was born, he would be raised as a girl. These "girls" were accepted by their society, there was no shame or guilt as this was built into their culture. These genetic boys did not rebel against their feminine upbringing which indicates to me that gender identity is overwhelmingly a learned behavior.

Jan W

02-07-2005, 04:39 AM

Dearest Helana,

I do so love this thread honey but after reading all the posts and the replies I find myself wondering why do you care so much?

I'm happy to discuss all the different theories and motivations, in fact I get a buzz doing so but I am perfectly happy to admit that there is as many combinations and permutations leading to our TG behaviour as there is grains of sand on the beach.

I do feel that you are a deep and sincere human being and I am glad that we share this forum and are in some way sisters pondering our very existance.

I might add at this point that I have recently come to terms with my desires and have decided to enjoy them to my hearts content - no more guilt! I was made this way and I will make no apoligies for my TG behaviour. As for all of us being potential whatevers I can promise you that I couldn't take a life to save my own. Don't ask but have been in the situation and I know this for a fact.

All my love,

Jan

Helana

02-07-2005, 04:56 AM

Dear Jan

I hope I don't come across as being overly concerned about this issue. Its just an interesting thread designed to make us all think a little. I do wonder how we CDers will progress and get recognition in society as I know society will demand answers even if they are irrelevant to us personally.

It is good to hear you have overcome your guilt and shame. That happened to me five years ago and it totally changed my life around. I shudder to think what I would be like now if I was still in hiding.

Julie

02-07-2005, 07:27 AM

I have just spent some enjoyable time reading through this thread which I will not add to as I feel everything has been touched on. My reason for replying is just to say what a pleasure it was to see the debate take place with all participants doing so and accepting each others views.

To Helana for starting the thread and all those participating, thank you.

JJ

Elysia

05-27-2005, 12:56 PM

I generally agree with your theory. Having said that, I also believe there are often several different ways to arrive at the same place. No doubt, the truth is more complex than any single theory but that’s no excuse for not thinking, your thoughts are much appreciated. Your hypothesis is sound and very well articulated. My experiences support it and I enjoyed reading it. Thanks for sharing.

I'm working my way through some older threads. Normal I just read but I thought I should express my appreciation of this one.

AbbyLee

05-28-2005, 06:21 PM

I have to agree with others that there is no single theory that can be attributed to CD,TG,TS, et. al. Like so many complex phenomena, the explinations in this case are probably a mix of genitic, physiological, psychological, sociological, cultural and behavioral, the degree of which determines the gender issue varying from one individual to another; for example some theories suggest CDing is soothing due to childhood trauma, others suggest it is an imbalance of hormones, still others that is a learned behavior from siblings or parents. In the final analysis though, I feel that the theories are not as important as the effect, which, from what I have observed throughout the forum is to embrace and accept our fem persona which we readily share with other girls.

With love and gratitude,

AbbyLee

Lady Jayne

05-28-2005, 06:53 PM

Helana
I don't doubt that with such a wide veriaty of CD's there ae some who would fall into your "Chosen behavior" category however I don't believe you can ignore the hormonal wash theory completly,I would refere you to the following post,
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=128250#post128250
and also the recent thread by Topaz
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9088
both of which seem to suggest to me that many TS/TG's are born that way and as such choice dosn't come into it.

Kiera

05-29-2005, 08:40 AM

This is a very interesting topic.

I have a few questions...

I was taught as a child that the male parent is genetically the one who determines a child's physical gender....

I was told by my mother that my father was unable to have male children...

If these statements are true, How can I be explained?

... If there are 54 known genes which contribute to gender 18 male ... 36 female... How many different combinations does that mean there are?

... If it is known that the physical aspects of gender are genetic and there are so many different combinations... Why cant the mental aspects be genetic as well?

Each of us have something in common.... Each of us are different.... Our genetic makeup is so complex that it is yet to be fully comprehended.... But if not for our genetic codes, would our brains, minds, and bodies develop and create whatever it is we are today?

Is behavior an aspect of genetics or enviornment? Isn't instinct a genetical behavior? What exactly is the difference between learned and instictual behavior?

....Is the ability to learn contained within our genetic code? If so, how many different combinations will be found to contribute to the way we learn? Does that make learning instictual?

The production of protiens and hormones in our bodies are written into our genetics. Drugs are protiens and hormones which can be taken and can alter physical appearance and behavior. Does that mean that behavior is a result of those hormones and protiens as is physical appearance?

I know that many of the questions are rhetorical and many are unaswerable to a difinitive point. But I do believe that as with math and the explanation of physics, genes are the only measureable path we have to help us to understand Gods blueprint of exactly what we are...

Please feel free to point out any holes you may find in my reasoning....