Permanent Transition

[Calliope]

http://calliopekurtz.blogspot.com/2007/02/permanent-transition.html


"Does a bunch of drugs and a surgeon's scalpel make any of us a woman?

"I wouldn't dream of submitting to either unless I already thought I was a woman - and the 'experts' won't do their work unless they're sure their patient thinks she's a woman. But if we think we are women, if we are convinced, throughout a lifetime, we are 'really' women - then why bother with all the crap?"

Above is an expanded version of the SRS/parenting/feminism ideas I've expressed on this forum lately. Not meant to offend the sensibilities of anyone considering, planning or opting to undergo HRT and / or SRS - but it is my womanifesto statement regarding my individual stance.

[Kimberly]

Not exactly sure what you're refering to when you say all the crap...? Do you mean the surgery, or the crapness of being in a male body?

Just not sure. :)

[janedoe311]

One can think about it.

Spend the rest of your life as a half woman (mutilated man) or as a full man (full in the physical sense not mentally.)

For those that do not care that they are not real women and after SRS are interested in men, it does not seem to be a problem. But for those who like women and are not really passable and loose their jobs and family. They are still outcasts, this is a problem. (They are now lesbians but not really because they are not real women.) They have lost their familys and are no longer a father to their children, which I believe is important for all children.

This is a big price to pay for a body that is not “real” and is it really worth it?

René Richards said to the effect that if there was another way to say as a man he would have done it. (I pill, hormone etc).
“What I said was if there were a drug, some voodoo, any kind of mind-altering magic remedy to keep the man intact, that would have been preferable, but there wasn’t,” Dr. Richards says. “The pressure to change into a woman was so strong that if I had not been able to do it, I might have been a suicide.”

Maybe that is why so many transsexuals say that they made a mistake.


If this society accepted people as they are, there would not be many if any transsexuals.


Sorry if I offend anyone but I felt I had to say this. I respect TS's, it takes a lot of courage, more than I have. But there has to be a better way. When and if I sell scripts I will look for it!

[ToyGirl]

One can think about it.

Spend the rest of your life as a half woman (mutilated man) or as a full man (full in the physical sense not mentally.)

For those that do not care that they are not real women and after SRS are interested in men, it does not seem to be a problem. But for those who like women and are not really passable and loose their jobs and family. They are still outcasts, this is a problem. (They are now lesbians but not really because they are not real women.) They have lost their familys and are no longer a father to their children, which I believe is important for all children.

This is a big price to pay for a body that is not “real” and is it really worth it?

René Richards said to the effect that if there was another way to say as a man he would have done it. (I pill, hormone etc).
“What I said was if there were a drug, some voodoo, any kind of mind-altering magic remedy to keep the man intact, that would have been preferable, but there wasn’t,” Dr. Richards says. “The pressure to change into a woman was so strong that if I had not been able to do it, I might have been a suicide.”

Maybe that is why so many transsexuals say that they made a mistake.


If this society accepted people as they are, there would not be many if any transsexuals.


Sorry if I offend anyone but I felt I had to say this. I respect TS's, it takes a lot of courage, more than I have. But there has to be a better way. When and if I sell scripts I will look for it!



It has little to do with courage , it is just something you have no choice in doing. No one should pressured into doing it. I know my doctors suggested i could have T injections to fix my hormone imbalance.

There are many Post-op transsexuals who beleive that are 100% women. You cannot argue with these people and i don't really see the need to. If thats what they believe then good for them. My screen name indicates my acceptance of being 'man made' but if someone was to call me a mutilated man it would not be pretty, i was never a man ever.... That said i think your opinion on that is unhealthy.

According to my sources less than 1% of transsexuals regret transitioning and the number gets smaller every day as GRS techniques get more advanced and effective.

Not everyone has familys or children or jobs. I don't think society has anything to do with being a transsexual , if your transitioning because of society your doing it for the wrong reasons.

Now i better i go read Calliopes link :)

[ToyGirl]

Calliope ,

If your happy with that then cool :thumbsup: and it might be helpfull for some people to understand your opinion. I agree with some if it atleast.

I am transitioning slowly and the more i find that GRS is not what makes you a women the less urgent i feel to get it. Though i still 100% intend to have GRS.

FFS is a whole nother can of worms. I do not need FFS so i may be biased. Iv'e heard people want it to 'pass' and even to 'not recognize the person in the mirror'. I do not understand the latter. I do question girls who spend 100,000 on transition. I have met ones that openly brag about it. Oddly enough there usually the ones that refuse to show there photos , don't want to break your deep stealth ? (lol) . So far i have spent about $350 on transition though i consider myself lucky in that sense.

Honestly if i needed 100k of surgery to transition i would not have done it. My youth sucked because i was overly feminine physically, I allways found getting work near impossible because i was not strong or well built, would not fit in with the other workers, relationships were the same. People that are built more like hulk hogan probably found getting work easier as well as finding love and no doubt had more productive lifes, but transition is alot harder for them and i can only assume the urge to transition must be a hell of alot greater than what i feel.

[Calliope]

Thanks all who read. Simply put, I think my message is what we do is more important than how we look. (It's true I'm not looking for a mate, so that makes my stance an easier one to adopt.)

[Jenna1561]

Calliope, I always enjoy your posts as they usually stir me to examine myself more deeply. What is it that I truly want? I'm happy that you know yourself so well and can understand your needs and yet empathize with those who have different needs and feelings.

Everyone is unique and to simply apply our personal views and prejudices to others does not recognize them as an individual with a unique set of life circumstances, beliefs, desires, and needs.

It's late and I'm rambling. Good Night.


Jenna

[GypsyKaren]

One can think about it.

Spend the rest of your life as a half woman (mutilated man) or as a full man (full in the physical sense not mentally.)

For those that do not care that they are not real women and after SRS are interested in men, it does not seem to be a problem. But for those who like women and are not really passable and loose their jobs and family. They are still outcasts, this is a problem. (They are now lesbians but not really because they are not real women.) They have lost their familys and are no longer a father to their children, which I believe is important for all children.

This is a big price to pay for a body that is not “real” and is it really worth it?

René Richards said to the effect that if there was another way to say as a man he would have done it. (I pill, hormone etc).
“What I said was if there were a drug, some voodoo, any kind of mind-altering magic remedy to keep the man intact, that would have been preferable, but there wasn’t,” Dr. Richards says. “The pressure to change into a woman was so strong that if I had not been able to do it, I might have been a suicide.”

Maybe that is why so many transsexuals say that they made a mistake.


If this society accepted people as they are, there would not be many if any transsexuals.


Sorry if I offend anyone but I felt I had to say this. I respect TS's, it takes a lot of courage, more than I have. But there has to be a better way. When and if I sell scripts I will look for it!



You're obviously not TS, if you were you'd understand, and to think of a post-op as a mutilated man is pretty sad in my opinion. I realize it's major surgery, but it's still considered plastic surgery, and people do it all the time for far less pressing reasons. Most do it for vanity, but for most of us it's life or death.

As far as the high price we pay, that's life, nothing is free or easy. The question is do you have the guts to pay it in order to be happy? Being able to be myself is a big thing for me, and I'm willing to give up a lot of other things to get it. It's not like it's a choice for us, we didn't choose this, so you do what you gotta do, it's as simple as that.

Karen

[janedoe311]

Look at my other posts you will see how I feel about my gender.

This is why I am gender confused because I feel two ways. Part of me sees it as mutilation another part as being made whole. I am not TS but I do not like by gender or body. So I have to be whole and need my family.

My “sanity” is irrelevant my family comes first. Like TS I have no choice.


You could say I am playing the devils advocate. I do not feel TS is mutilation but it can be seen as that. I am a writer and need to put myself in everyone’s shoes. So do not take all I say that seriously I just like to get people thinking from others perspectives. (You know the best to stop a crook is think like a crook. I can think like a crook so I find it easy to do security consulting. Just an example of putting yourself in someone else’s shoes.)

If you cannot see that then we will never have a chance of being accepted by the general public. We need to see as they do to change them.

PS You can not tell the real satisfactions of TS persons. Most people will say they are happy even if they are miserable. Example is 60% of the population in the US do not like their job, from surveys taken. But if you walk up to these people they will say the like their job.

Polls are biased. Apple says Mac is 15% of the market, PC surveys say it is 1 ½%, religious sites say 90% believe in god and 80% are Christian but other polls say it is 60% and 45% are Christian and about half of the Christians do not believe in God at least the way their religion claims, most Christian do not believe in hell or heaven but if you get polls from churches it is 100% believe in Hell and heaven. I can give you endless examples of polls like this.

Only the Professionals poll companies have a bit of reality because they know the demographics and know were to get an average.

[melissaK]

I'd confer all readers and posters of this thread three semester hours of credit towards the philosophy or sociology or psyche degree of their choice.

I don't think I can add much to the posts or commentary, but like a moth drawn to an open flame . . . . I can't resist. :heehee:

The interplay between modern sciences understanding of bodies (i.e. the ability to create synthetic hormones; perform astounding surgeries and have the patient live) and societies dictates about our sexual roles and bodies (the ephmeral notions of beauty, ideal physique, social roles, etc) is really a study in human values.

How TS brings those two things in contact with each other, and how we each navigate through the contact zone is very personal. And there is no right or wrong. We are at the edge of human social experience - we are riding a minor Tofflerian change wave whether we like it or not.

How we each act in making choices in the conflict zone, is our incremental contribution to the direction human culture takes on this matter. What we individually decide does shape what our culture "thinks" about it all.

And as I think about the posts so far, I see statements indicating that a lot of different options exist, and that we are choosing the options that are most right for us individually; the option that resonates with our own personal values. And since our individual values are not uniform, our opinions on what's a good solution differ.

I think of myself as a TS. I really only think of myself as me, but once I compare myself to available labels, that's what I am. I spent a lot of time contemplating myself 15 years ago. I didn't want SRS. I wanted to live fulltime as a woman, but I didn't want to deal with all that it entailed. So, I listened to some who said I was therefore, not a TS; and, not even a CDer.

I spent the last 13-14 years labelessly adrift, not fitting the TS-SRS path, the CDer path, or liking the GM life path. It caused me great problems. So, today, I still have no desires for SRS, same opinion about full time living, but today a little HRT is possible when it wasn't 15 years ago, and that helps.

But I won't do the labeless thing anymore, its waaay too lonely for me; so, I wedge myself in under the TS label, like it or not. It fits me best. I can only say, I know my own heart on this matter.

Perhaps janedoes' poll takers will keep track of the various decisions we make, maybe not. But if they do, I sure hope no one declares a "winner." That would be a shame. :(

Hugs,
'lissa

[Calliope]

More reading - well, I'm flattered. And, sure, I know such a strong ideological presentation will rankle, if only for a moment.

I would like to add (again) I have nothing but respect for those who FEEL THE NEED to work on their body. My hassle is only with the smirking, profiting doctors. Well, yes, also, I am questioning the need to (erotically) please men.





However, I'm none of those things. I'll try to not be condescending towards your life choices, and I'd appreciate reciprocal treatment.


Gee, I am sorry you found my words condescending - that was not my intention. I do accept, with apologies, that that is how they sounded.




But the implication that you knew you were a woman because you enjoyed being a house wife strikes me as remarkably unfeminist in nature for a feminist womanifesto.

Yes, you are spot on there. Contradictory, isn't it? Well, I'll plead dialectics - just like all those slippery Soviets.

Hmmmm.
:bonk:

[Calliope]

Yup, we're definitely in different spots.

First, I'm just gonna clean up some of my earlier responding comments. I should have paused at the tag "feminist womanifesto" because what I'm doing isn't feminist, it's transfeminist. And, thinking a bit more, I will amplify the idea of children as essential because I believe raising children highlights the biggest difference between men and women (social construct flowing from biology).



If you ever get a job, there is an excellent chance that the SSA will out you as male to your employer. Also, the REAL ID Act is likely to cause non-ops lots of problems in coming years.

It seems to me that you have drawn the line at doing only those things that you are comfortable doing, and that your manifesto is merely a post hoc attempt to justify decisions that you have made for other reasons.

Contrariwise, I think that actually having genital surgery to flip your anatomy to the opposite sex is inherently subversive. Biological males choosing to abandon male privilege and forgo their phallic symbol of power in order to become more fully female is a direct threat to the patriarchy, which is one of the reasons why society and mass media tend to be far harsher on trans women than on trans men.


Oh, I'm not worried about any job problems. I'm not a woman and I wouldn't claim to be; I'm a transsexual - and proud of it. As out on that as the air I breath.

Certainly my ideology flows out from all the elements of my life's history which makes me who I am. It would be disingenuous to infer anything else. I'm not speaking any universal truth here, I simply wrote up a little essay which states where I'm at. And, yes, at times, it was necessary to point out where I'm not at.

Regarding your last point, I'm as in love with subversive as anyone! Still, I think genital modification is secondary to gendered behavior. That is why I put such much stress on raising kids.

Now, I realize the above isn't going to offer you any solace, Kehleyr. I'm sorry. I really am. But I do have a set of values and beliefs. Chances are, if my life history resembled yours, I would hold your position. And since you know who you are and where you're going, obviously you have it together.
:Peace:

[joanlynn28]

Hey, hold on there. Sure there are natal women and transwomen but we are all women none the less. Okay on a genetic level we transwomen are still technically male but we still are women. Let's not sell ourselves short, yes we can't bear children and are sterile but remember that many genetic women are sterile and cannot bear children either but that does not make them any less a woman. Yes I am a transwoman and proud of it so don't condemn ourselves here.

[Siobhan Marie]

Hey, hold on there. Sure there are natal women and transwomen but we are all women none the less. Okay on a genetic level we transwomen are still technically male but we still are women. Let's not sell ourselves short, yes we can't bear children and are sterile but remember that many genetic women are sterile and cannot bear children either but that does not make them any less a woman. Yes I am a transwoman and proud of it so don't condemn ourselves here.

I so agree with what Joan has said in her post. But I have to add my :2c: to this as I can be silent no longer. I am not and never will be a "mutilated man" as one person said. While we are all entitled to an opinion, I have to confess that, that really did get my back up. What I am is a woman who is stuck in a man's body. I know that, can deal with it and more importantly have made peace with it. All I will be doing when I have my surgery is to finish what nature started. I also know and am well aware that I will be able to function as a GG, it doesn't bother me. When I was 19, I came to within 3 days of taking my own life because I didn't know who or what I was. I do now and am so proud of who I am and the progress that I've made and will continue to make. Just my :2c:

:hugs: Anna Marie x

[Maggie Kay]

I would go for GRS too if it weren't for the cost and risks. I'm going through a major financial bind and have no hopes at my age to ever be flush with cash like I was a few years ago. My reason is not to be sexually active, but to be in harmony with myself. I cannot do that when I am forced to view those bits. Also, as has been said, Society will never really let me pass everywhere until it is gone. The prospect of discovery adds a pressure to living full time. SO I'd put my opinion on the side of surgery.

BTW, Isn't it amazing that in this day of anything goes, that we still have so many restrictions on getting access GRS? It is a free for all out there with all sorts of behaviors in society, government, business and media. Yet, here in the halls of the protectorate of gender, they remain pure and hold to a higher standard. Seriously, isn't this getting a bit anachronistic now? I can see that they are trying to prevent patients from regret as was an issue in the past but times have changed. It is time for the medical community to do so too. They need to relax their standards and make it accessible to more people. Perhaps as the number of people doing it increases, the costs will be less too.

[janedoe311]

I am not and never will be a "mutilated man" as one person said. While we are all entitled to an opinion, I have to confess that, that really did get my back up. What I am is a woman who is stuck in a man's body.[/B]

That was me! But do not take anything I say seriously I consider tattoos and pierced ears body mutilation!

I am a bit weird, to say the least!

Too much of a perfectionist. Even if I was 20 again, no family and felt this way I would still not go TS. Since a kid I wanted a family so TS and GRS would not work for me. If I could take a pill or get a wish from a lepricon to be a woman then I would probably do it, back then. But not surgery and hormones.

P.S. I will confess I am researching a book and movie script so I like to push buttons. It is the only way to see how people feel.

[Sierra Evon]

Wow !!!, thats heavy !!!!

[Siobhan Marie]

That was me! But do not take anything I say seriously I consider tattoos and pierced ears body mutilation!

It's ok Jane, really it is, you just pushed my buttons and saying that is one of the easiest ways to do so.

:hugs: Anna Marie x

[janedoe311]

It's ok Jane, really it is, you just pushed my buttons and saying that is one of the easiest ways to do so.

:hugs: Anna Marie x

It gets that heart going does it not? Just in case you cannot go running!

[Siobhan Marie]

It gets that heart going does it not? Just in case you cannot go running!

No it didn't do that, it made my blood boil!!

:hugs: Anna Marie x

[janedoe311]

No it didn't do that, it made my blood boil!!

:hugs: Anna Marie x

You are gorgeous!

No wonder you are upset about my “mouth running over”, no guy in drag there I saw a beautiful woman.

Sorry, not to offend. I do not really feel TS is mutilation. It just can be seen that way. Maybe it is because I envy you. I am 56years old 6’1” with big hands and feet and am not passable even with 100grand of surgery, I have a family I can not make those changes.
So I guess it is envy!

[joanlynn28]

I might add a little more fuel to the fire, if it wasn't for my ability to easily pass I don't think that I would even consider transitioning like I have. I don't want to ruffle any feathers here but I am approaching 46 years on this planet and have always had a slender build that has never really been that of a mascular one. Plus I am only 5'9" weigh just over 150lbs, small narrow feet and never got an adam's apple. I don't ever remembering my vioce changing at all, I never had my voice crack like my younger brother did. Oh and that I look way younger than my actual age, benefits of inheriting my mother's genes. She looks a lot younger than her 70 years too.

[janedoe311]

I might add a little more fuel to the fire, if it wasn't for my ability to easily pass I don't think that I would even consider transitioning like I have. I don't want to ruffle any feathers here but I am approaching 46 years on this planet and have always had a slender build that has never really been that of a mascular one. Plus I am only 5'9" weigh just over 150lbs, small narrow feet and never got an adam's apple. I don't ever remembering my vioce changing at all, I never had my voice crack like my younger brother did. Oh and that I look way younger than my actual age, benefits of inheriting my mother's genes. She looks a lot younger than her 70 years too.

I could see myself more likely to go TS in my 20's if I could pass. At 6'1" very big hands and feet and a baritone voice and big nose and masculine face I would only look like a man in a dress. I am sure if I was 6" shorter with small hands and feet and a girly face I would feel different about TS.

[michelleupnorth]

Thanks Kehleyr for taking the words out of my mouth. I feel the same way about this whole issue like you do.
Michelle

[Siobhan Marie]

You are gorgeous!

No wonder you are upset about my “mouth running over”, no guy in drag there I saw a beautiful woman.

Sorry, not to offend. I do not really feel TS is mutilation. It just can be seen that way. Maybe it is because I envy you. I am 56years old 6’1” with big hands and feet and am not passable even with 100grand of surgery, I have a family I can not make those changes.
So I guess it is envy!

Jane, sadly hon those pictures are not me and you have nothing to be jealous about. I only wish they were and can only apologise if you thought they were me. Please don't think any less of me. I get those pictures from a site called Only Tease, the ladies on there are truly beautiful and if l thought that I could look that good, I would be the happiest girl in the world. All they are there to do, is to make the blog look nice and nothing more. I'm 30 years old and single. I still dress in drab as I have to present as a man, which is something that I'm very bad at doing and will have to do for another year or so. You didn't offend, its just that reading your post really did make my blood boil as the way I see it, is that I'm finishing what nature started and I know that I have a long way to go and I will get there.

:hugs: Anna Marie x

[Chrissycd]

but I'm not going to invest myself in it anymore than this:
I found this thread offensive and I hope it's removed from the site.
I've been here for a few years now and I've not read anything quite as disappointing as some of the statements made here. What I have always liked about this site is that it offers a "home" to a whole spectrum of girls, whether cd's, post ops or anywhere in between and everyone gets along very well -- until somebody decides they have the right to make ludicrous, judgmental, narrow minded and condescending statements based on their tiny window on the world (or b/c they're "a writer" and that gives them license to say insensitive things just to see how the "rats" react.
Two major league :thumbsdn: :thumbsdn:

[Calliope]

I found this thread offensive and I hope it's removed from the site.


To quote Sleater-Kinney:


You're no rock n roll fun.

[AmberTG]

This whole discussion is quite interesting! I'm not sure why one person would get insulted because of another person expressing a personal opinion about their own life and lifestyle, but I guess that's human nature. To me, it's a lot like religion, as long as you don't try to force me to believe like you believe, I don't care what you believe, it's your right to believe however you want for your own needs, and I'll believe the things that suit my needs.
Having said that, I don't really fit any label very well, but the closest thing I can come up with is "transgendered, halfway between". I don't fit the discription of a man, geneticly, yes, thought process and actions, no, and I also don't fit the discription of a woman in thought process and some actions, I guess, to a certain extent, I blend them. As I move on with my transition towards being able to live as a woman, I must "mutulate" my beard by having it removed and "mutate" my body with hormone therapy so that I can at least blend in with women on the outside. I must learn the things about female thought process that I was unable to learn as a child, due to my parents reinforcing my male behaviour and rejecting my female behaviour as a child. I could just as easily been raised as a girl, except for my genitals being wrong for the role. I just remember being a child, not a "boy" or a "girl". That came with puberty, along with gender confusion.
Now, obviously, I don't belong in any of the "groups" that are being argued about in this thread, I see them all as valid arguements, maybe not for me, but certainly for the people who express them as a personal statement. No arguement from me there, who am I to tell any one of you that you are wrong and I am right! Hipocracy is not just in religion. If one of you thought that cutting off both your thumb toes was the only way to truely be a woman I'd tell you "It's not for me but, go for it and let me know how it works for you".
I do, however, believe how a person thinks and acts is more important than how many surgerys a person can have, when it comes to actually being a woman. We do the physical stuff because you don't get a second chance to make a first impression when it comes to "passing". If you look like a woman and act like a guy, it's still hard to pass. If you're lucky, FFS is not necessary, if you're unlucky, FFS is necessary. I hope I'm a "lucky" one, I can't afford those kinds of things.
Of course, none of this makes any sense at all to a non-TG/TS person, they usually just don't "get it". A good thing that you don't have to understand something to be able to accept it.
Well, I suppose I've rambled on long enough, I'll get off my little soapbox now
Amber

[Sejd]

Calliope
I just don't get it. Two month ago, you were all "gung ho" for the transition process for yourself, and now that you have changed your mind, you are mocking the health profession, the same doctors which would have helped you if you had proceeded with your transition. I just read some inconsistancy here and also some intollerance toward other girls who has gone all the way. I think a retraction of some of your comments ( words like mutilation) would be in order here.
respectfully
Sejd

[janedoe311]

Calliope
I just don't get it. Two month ago, you were all "gung ho" for the transition process for yourself, and now that you have changed your mind, you are mocking the health profession, the same doctors which would have helped you if you had proceeded with your transition. I just read some inconsistancy here and also some intollerance toward other girls who has gone all the way. I think a retraction of some of your comments ( words like mutilation) would be in order here.
respectfully
Sejd

This site is for thinking out loud and venting among other things.

By ranting you are thinking and having second thoughts. It is good to REALY think about an irreversible decision.

Why do you think they call it gender CONFUSION? Because it causes conflicts and confusion! Want to be a woman but do not want to be a woman! Want breasts but to not want breasts. Am a heterosexual and happily married, but fantasize about being a woman and having sex with a man, but do not like men! Mutation or being made whole!

Let the guy have his say, he is doing the right thing and thinking about it and the consequences of this transition.

[Calliope]

Calliope
I just don't get it. Two month ago, you were all "gung ho" for the transition process for yourself, and now that you have changed your mind, you are mocking the health profession, the same doctors which would have helped you if you had proceeded with your transition. I just read some inconsistancy here and also some intollerance toward other girls who has gone all the way. I think a retraction of some of your comments ( words like mutilation) would be in order here.
respectfully
Sejd

First, I would like to point out the word (genital) mutilation appears in my essay regarding clitoridectomy and infibulation, then extrapolates from there to 'cosmetic sugery' as understood by feminists such as Naomi Wolf. 'Why are women always getting carved up by men?' [Germaine Greer].

Now, from there, I ask the same in the TS context. However, mutilation is no longer the term used. I use the term surgery - and, yes, I have my issue here.

Is my stance inconsistent? Well, I'd like to think my stance is evolved. It has changed, at least somewhat. I was pursuing hormones - but the expense and ill-treatment I have received (in liberal California) has shifted my thinking, at least somewhat.

All in all, I believe I have been ideologically consistent. After all, I have never worn breastforms, bras, rear padding, etc. I have always maintained it is better to 'pass' as a ladylike TS than appear sexualized and run the risk of 'fooling' men who, of course, may take offense.

Regarding the "transition process," I am transitioning. Every time I listen to, say, Janis Ian instead of, say, Bob Dylan, I am transitioning. Every time I read, say, Andrea Dworkin instead of Karl Marx, I am transitioning. Every time I play with my kids instead of, er, excuse me, hang out on this forum, I am transitioning. The point I have to make is that it's really in the mind - and in the deed.

[GypsyKaren]

There has been things said that shouldn't have been said, I have deleted them and I'm closing this thread.

There will be no flaming or testiness here, do we understand each other?

Karen