Question: FtM variance?

[Violetgray]

One thing I've always wondered, with us MtF's there's such a wide degree of expression.. some are men who just get off on wearing lingerie or high heels but other than that are VERY male.. some are heterosexual or gay and just like being pretty, and some are simply born in the wrong form and seek to correct it...

But I think all of the FtM's I've ever met only fall into the latter category. I've never met an FtM that wouldn't love to go all the way.. so my question is, are there heterosexual women who love being male that don't want to transition? Common sense would tell me that if its true for MtF's its probably true for FtM's but I haven't seen it so I'm beginning to wonder..

Or maybe its just that you men really DO know what you want more often!

Gotta say though going on a date with an FtM is great! No one treats you like a lady better than someone who wants to be treated like a man!

[pocoyo]

Awwww :)

Well I think it's harder for people born female to be "merely" crossdressers because male clothes are so the norm for females anyway. So probably... the only people that actively seek help, are those that are really struggling with their gender. If that makes sense?

(btw you'r gorgeous :o )

[Edit: oh yeah didn't answer the question hehe! Yes I think there are. You just don't see many of them around/realise they are cders!]

[Adam]

Yes there is people who call themselfs drag kings they have no want to transtion but wear mens clothes and glue face hair on ect

youtube "drag kings" just seems more ftm use forum sites than drag kings but they are out there :D

[bi_weird]

Oh there's definitly those of us who don't want to go all the way. I present as female basically all the time, though more and more ties and button up shirts are creeping into my daily wear. I don't know how far I'd like to go in an ideal world, but I think it's probably be some sort of androgynous. Right now I'm quite content with guys clothes and random male bonding with one of my guy friends. Everyone knows I'm not your typical girl, and they accept that I like to burb and I'm hyper-competative, and that works.

[CaptLex]

Hey, Violet, thanks for dropping by. Beautiful pic, by the way. I know many women that never wear skirts, dresses or makeup, but they don't consider themselves FtM and have no desire to be anything other than women, but nobody thinks of them as transgendered because it's not unusual to see women present this way. Those of us who sense there's more to our wanting a male appearance are the ones that usually seek out a forum like this. And, as Bi pointed out, some of the guys here are androgynous and are comfortable presenting somewhere in between. Hope that answers your question.

[Violetgray]

Thanks everyone for your perspectives. But what I mean is, I know there are women who prefer pants and flannel shirts and consider themselves androgynous and can be tomboyish and all, but let me elaborate:

let's say there are 3 degrees of FtM-ness..

1.) The aforementioned sort of "tomboyish" female, who never wear skirts, etc.

2.) Heterosexual women who rather than being gender neutral, actually choose to present themselves as male, maybe actually involve binding and artificial facial hair. For alot of non-TS MtF's its still an outward expression of something internal, so it would be similar to that..

3.) Transmen, simply put, people who were meant to be men, and want to correct the mistake.

I see 1 and 3 alot, but I never see 2. I guess drag kings would count, but I only ever see them onstage..

[Taylor105]

I'm a born into the wrong body but too afraid to have surgery person. I am straight....meaning I am a boy who likes women. To the world I am a lesbian but who cares what the world thinks? I know I don't pass very well simply because I am small and look young but oh well. So I fall into the category of being a boy with girl parts. I love women and therefore see myself as a straight male. I'm not interested in hormones or surgery at this point.

[Evert]

Unk! Gorgeous dropping by! :eek: (read your myspace.. Goth, Within Temptation, QNTAL, etc etc... :thumbsup: I LOVE YOU!)

Just replying to let you know :p

[Marla S]

1.) The aforementioned sort of "tomboyish" female, who never wear skirts, etc.

2.) Heterosexual women who rather than being gender neutral, actually choose to present themselves as male, maybe actually involve binding and artificial facial hair. For alot of non-TS MtF's its still an outward expression of something internal, so it would be similar to that..

3.) Transmen, simply put, people who were meant to be men, and want to correct the mistake.

I see 1 and 3 alot, but I never see 2. I guess drag kings would count, but I only ever see them onstage..
Hope it is allowed to jump in.
I think 2.) is really specific to MTFs, because of the afore mentioned reasons.
I am quite sure that a lot of MTFs wouldn't try to mimic women (breastforms wigs, padding etc.) if there would be more orientation for an androgynous style.
Pretending to be a woman or the wish to pass is not only desireable in itself but also way to escape from the social pressure and a way of (self-)justification.
All-or-nothing syndrom, due to the fact that as man you step outside the norms very easily anyway. To fit into the norms again you have to quit CDing or you have (to try) to pass. That's what a lot of MTFs do: all drab or all en femme. Everything inbetween isn't "real".

[Felix]

For me in my head I guess I feel I present as male even though others who know me see me as female with a different slant, like I wear mens clothes trainers and bind. I don't quite know if I want to come out to everybody yet cos it will mean so many changes. Like if I go and ask to see a gender therapist that will cause change. Like If I changed my name then I would have to tell ppl and my employer and family, not ready for that. I am interested in hormones but again the time isn't right. So I'm definitely not a drag king cos I don't do it for the reasons they do. I just feel right this way. This will sound strange I am in a gay relationship and I know that my interest is strictly women only. My head says ya must be straight then but my soul cos its somethin deeper says ya butch as hell, hows about that for a conflict. Now that is definitely my female side struggling to survive I think. Sorry peeps rambling again xx Felix :hugs:

[ZenFrost]

I think that in society, it's natural for women to wear men's clothing but not the other way around. So what would be crossdressing for a man is just normal for a woman, and the only real instances of FtM are those who go a step further than just wear male clothing. For example, a man in a skirt is considered crossdressing but a woman in pants isn't. Woman have to go farther (than men) into the other gender in order to be FtM. That's just the way that society is so it's why you don't see many FtMs that aren't transmen. But that's just what I think. (and like taylor, I consider myself to be a straight guy)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I think that in society, it's natural for women to wear men's clothing but not the other way around.

For what it's worth, it's only been acceptable for women to wear men's clothing (as opposed to men's-styled clothing. (I know women who were send home to change out of pants and into a dress in the 1960s.)

Interestingly, historically FTMs were vastly far more numerous than MTFs -- in fact FTMs weren't uncommon and often tacitly accepted. There's probably a variety of reasons for this, chief among them FTMs had a far easier time of passing (they often passed as teens who were too young to shave). The common explanation is that these women were seeking the greater freedom and opportunities afforded men, which is undoubtedly true, but it's not unreasonable to assume that some also did so for trans-related reasons.

[CaptLex]

The common explanation is that these women were seeking the greater freedom and opportunities afforded men, which is undoubtedly true, but it's not unreasonable to assume that some also did so for trans-related reasons.
I agree with you, Marlena. I've read several books about women in history who seem to have been trans (FtM) at least to some extent (although there was no such vocabulary for it at that time), and I'm always fascinated by how similar they are to us now and yet back then it didn't occur to most people that they could be between genders.

In fact, I was watching a program about Catherine the Great (Empress of Russia), last night on the Biography channel (I love historical stuff), and was very surprised to learn that she may have been somewhat trans herself. At the begininng of the show they described her as being a "tomboy", which caught my attention, and by the end of the program they read from her memoirs where she said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that she had the mind of a man, and the body of a woman but she wasn't mannish. Wow, I couldn't believe she actually said that.

She was also known for having the libido of a man. In fact, Catherine was known as much for her sexual exploits (with men) as she was for being a dynamic and charismatic ruler, so I can't help but wonder that if she lived in this day and age she might transition into a gay transman. Since she lived in a very different era, however, she channeled all that into being an unforgetable ruler. :D

[Marla S]

The common explanation is that these women were seeking the greater freedom and opportunities afforded men, which is undoubtedly true, but it's not unreasonable to assume that some also did so for trans-related reasons.
Well, I think that exactly is trans IMO. Not more and not less.

[Dasein9]

Once upon a time, not so long ago, in historical terms, women were considered inverted or truncated men. Old anatomy texts show drawings of female anatomy, and the labels are all the same as in men's anatomy. So, the vagina was actually called the "female penis" and the ovaries were called the "female testicles." It wasn't until the Enlightenment that females and males were conceived of as radically different kinds of people. (And that was used to justify quite a bit of sexism, too.)

So, while there were certainly gender differences, the common conception of male and female was more of a continuum than we think of it today, what with all that "Men are from Mars" nonsense.

Also, have you ever noticed that in most Western languages, the word for "man" also means "humankind?" That wasn't an accident -- men were really seen as further along toward the notion of what a human being ought to be than women were.

The upshot is that any biological woman who acted like a man was seen as "improving" herself, becoming more fully developed as a human, and any biological man who acted like a woman was seen as abasing himself, becoming less than fully developed as a human.

And the Church played a part in this too, with the notion of the soul. St. Jerome (the same one who translated the Bible into the Latin version that the Church only recently stopped regarding as the definitive version) actually said, in so many words, that some women "become men" if they're chaste and holy enough. This became part of the Church's doctrine, and was a handy explanation of why men had to bow to female saints. Those saints had, in their souls, literally become men.

And that is why our society, which still retains a lot of the presuppositions of the past, still considers it okay for biological women to act like men, and why such women are incorporated into the gender expectations of our culture. They're only becoming better people, after all! (According to the common wisdom. Which isn't really all that wise... ;))

[Dasein9]

To give a more personal answer to your question, I'd have to know what you mean by "correct the mistake."

Yes, I'm a guy. But I'm also me. And I am a physical, embodied being, and a soul, and a mind, and a character, and a bunch of other things. I find it difficult to think of myself as a "me who is trapped in a body." My body is a part of my self.

Of course, there are some aspects of my body I dislike. The GFS's (Ghastly Fat Sacks) on my chest are problematic for me. So are my thighs. I also think I have a "rodent face," and there's far too much cellulite in parts. Some of these are things I can live with. Some may need to be altered. But I'm not sure it's so much correcting a mistake as simply making a few improvements. The original plumbing in an old house isn't a "mistake," but it might need to be improved to make the place more pleasant to live in.

Of course, the fact that the technology available to FTM's for sexual reassignment surgery is so primitive also plays a part in my choices. I don't think I'll ever have "bottom" surgery, simply because I like having nerve endings in the genitalia that's there, even if it's not the genitalia I would prefer to have. Top surgery, assuming that finances will someday permit, is probably in my future. And testosterone is becoming more and more of a likelihood for me.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Well, I think that exactly is trans IMO. Not more and not less.

I don't want to hijack the guys' thread (so Capt'n or Felix feel free to move this), but I'll just quickly note there's a big difference between wanting to partake in the greater freedoms and privileges afforded to men, and feeling like you're in the wrong body. There are plenty of feminists who want the former, but who are happy to remain female-bodied. For more on this see an interesting paper by transman sociologist Aaron Devor, who looked at the spectrum of what might considered "female gender dysphoria." (If you want to skip the academicese, just look for Tables 1 and 2, which summarize his points.)

[Dasein9]

That's very true, Marlena. And some of us don't want the power accorded to men. I'm becomming a Protestant white male, and am very aware of the unfair privilege that comes with that.

The question is, how do I give it back?

[CaptLex]

I don't want to hijack the guys' thread (so Capt'n or Felix feel free to move this), but I'll just quickly note there's a big difference between wanting to partake in the greater freedoms and privileges afforded to men, and feeling like you're in the wrong body.
No need to move it, Marlena, and you said it well too. For me, being trans has nothing to do with male privilege. I could deal with the hassles of being considered a second class citizen without having to deal with the hassles of transitioning ('cause it's not all roses, you know), if that's all it was. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a transguy whose primary goal is attaining the freedom that can come with being or presenting as male.

[Dasein9]

By the way, I just realised I named some "naughty bits" above. I don't know if that's okay, even in the context of anatomy. So, if you need me to, I'll be happy to go back and put in some asterisks.

[CaptLex]

By the way, I just realised I named some "naughty bits" above. I don't know if that's okay, even in the context of anatomy. So, if you need me to, I'll be happy to go back and put in some asterisks.

I think you're fine, Das. From what I can see you used the correct, clinical terms, and that's acceptable. It's the naughty words used to describe the "naughty bits" that pose a problem. :p

[Dasein9]

Yeh, that wasn't a very sexy post, was it?

Thanks, Cap'n. :)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

And some of us don't want the power accorded to men. I'm becomming a Protestant white male, and am very aware of the unfair privilege that comes with that.

The question is, how do I give it back?

Well you'll probably discover that it's not always as privileged as you imagine. (Personally, I think Norah Vincent's "Self-Made Man" (http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Year-Disguised/dp/0143038702/sr=8-1/qid=1171132784/ref=sr_1_1/102-1287044-9924925?ie=UTF8&s=books) ought to be required reading by any transguy considering transitioning. It's got some flaws (see my review (http://www.adahlshouse.com/2006/02/05/%e2%80%9cself-made-man%e2%80%9d/)), but it's a useful reality-check.)

As far as power, it seems like often those raised as women aren't comfortable with the notion of wielding power. (From what I've seen, a lot of feminist thinking still views it as tainted.) But like many things, power isn't inherently good or evil. It's how its wielded. Naomi Wolf's "Fire With Fire," (http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Naomi-Wolf/dp/0449909514/sr=8-1/qid=1171133309/ref=sr_1_1/102-1287044-9924925?ie=UTF8&s=books) has some very good thoughts about how to make use of power for good. (Unfortunately, much of the criticism around the book only illustrates Wolf's point about how uncomfortable some women are about the issue of power.)

And a final thought: the way "to be a man" isn't any more monolithic than "being a woman." So be the sort of man you wish more men would be like.

[Marla S]

I don't want to hijack the guys' thread (so Capt'n or Felix feel free to move this), but I'll just quickly note there's a big difference between wanting to partake in the greater freedoms and privileges afforded to men, and feeling like you're in the wrong body. There are plenty of feminists who want the former, but who are happy to remain female-bodied. For more on this see an interesting paper by transman sociologist Aaron Devor, who looked at the spectrum of what might considered "female gender dysphoria." (If you want to skip the academicese, just look for Tables 1 and 2, which summarize his points.)
The "wrong body" as a conviction or a disapproval of the own body holds true for TSs. And there are TS for both sexes in about the same order of magnitute. But is it the same for CDs ? I think there are good reasons to doubt it in quite a few cases. A CD is nevertheless considered trans. And not to forget a MTF CD is considered trans predominately due to the choice of his clothes. Almost any other privilege is on the free market for MTFs and nobody would really moan if you require them (at least it is nothing that has to be hidden in the closet).

I feel a bit unhappy with the term "greater freedom and privileges afforded to men", because it comprises a not suitable generalization and weighting.
Being trans is an individual thing which hardly can be judged by general "gender privileges". The freedom and privilege for one might be the prison and restriction for the other.

[Dasein9]

Yeh, Marlena, and I'm trying to become just that sort of man. With power comes responsibility, and I'm working on developing that sense. So, yes, I give up my seat to a woman on the subway, and keep in mind that women will frequently expect me to make way for them. And I'm trying to do all this without becoming sexist.

Once, a few months ago, I was en homme, and saw a couple of women sitting on the curb on 14th St. One was in distress, and the other was helping her. I offered to help, and both of them looked at me with a great deal of fear. That was quite a jolt. I did the only thing I could do to reassure them I was harmless -- I walked away without looking back. That's what brought it home to me that if I don't want people to fear me, I'd better work at becoming a gentleman.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I offered to help, and both of them looked at me with a great deal of fear. That was quite a jolt. I did the only thing I could do to reassure them I was harmless -- I walked away without looking back. That's what brought it home to me that if I don't want people to fear me, I'd better work at becoming a gentleman.

Unfortunately, even if you are a gentleman, you'll still get that response from some women. That's the sort of thing I meant when I said that being a man ain't always the carefree existence (many) women think it is. (Not that I consider you a woman, just that you were raised as one, so until now you haven't experienced "the other side" of things.)

Which for what it's worth, is another way you can give back. Sad to say, my experience has been that because I'm male-bodied women usually won't take seriously things I have to say about how men's gender roles can also be stifling. The vast majority of things that are in Norah Vincent's book are nothing new -- men and men's group have been saying them for years (albeit the Iron John crowd is a bit wacky), but hearing them from another women seemed to be revelatory -- at least from the talk shows I saw/heard Vincent appear on.

[Dasein9]

Yeh, I think I see what you mean.

I suspect that humans will always divide into types, gender types, socioeconomic types, ethnic types, and the like. It's what we do, naming and classifying, which is all some kind of typing.

But the responsibilities and privileges (for want of a better word) that come with some types may fit some of us better than others. I just can't fit the expectations that people have of women. I think it's kind of kept me from becoming an adult, since I can't see myself as a mature woman. But the way that men are classified comes a great deal more naturally to me. So, even if the role is confining in its own way, maybe those are confines I can live with better than I can with the confines of "womanhood."

Does that make any sense?

[CaptLex]

I don't believe in privilege - male, female or otherwise. I believe in equality. I know things are far from equal between the sexes, but I don't believe changing one's sex to achieve greater freedom could ever really be any true transperson's purpose.

On another note, I've been thinking about what you said about becoming a gentleman, Das. I think it's definitely an admirable goal, but for me it would depend on what that would entail - and I'm sure different people have different definitions of what a gentleman is or does. I've always believed in courtesy and respect towards others, regardless of gender, and I don't see that changing as I transition.

Marlena, I think it's possible to understand how the other half lives without being born that way physically. I know there are experiences that natal men have lived that I haven't, but it doesn't mean I'm totally unaware of what those experiences are or how they feel about them. I have always had close male friends who have been good enough to share personal experiences and feelings (probably because they sensed how interested I was), and I've learned a lot from them. I know it's best to walk a mile in another's shoes before really understanding them, but it doesn't mean I can't learn a lot just from what they tell me.

[pocoyo]

Hi I've been reading this thread but not known how to comment.
It has caused quite a few thoughts and emotions to stir in me.

I have avoided posting anything more on here until now because I am very tired and clumsy at the moment and don't want to seem to be spouting nonsense! I will try my best to make some sense though. (If I sound crazy or drunk just bear with me... my dizziness is playing up and it causes cognative problems lol... that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it!...it is true tho btw lol :p )

Ok 1st... I totally agree and feel the same as what Lex said above about no true transperson would transition just to gain any sort of privalege or benefit.

Also... I too believe in equality and being courteous to people in general.

But the thing that was most important to me to comment on was that Marlena (& some others I know), you don't seem to think that a (pre SR) FtM could know what it is truly like to be a man. But actually many of us have actually lived as a man or had experience as a man/boy (both in real life or online) and are very experienced in male matters. Also many of us were raised with and around males, or even AS a male. All of my close friends in real life are male and I am one of them.
Also I have lived as a male online for years, carrying out many a relationship and problem etc etc. Plus, having intelligence (haha I know that's hard to believe from the way I'm writing tonight lol!) and imagination... that helps too.
Erg. What I'm trying to say is please don't think that people are clueless of/naive about the gender they wish to change into. For many reasons. Including.. because a lot of them have real life experience as that gender. Also, of course many in fact feel they are that gender inside already. So any experience they have are in fact male anyway. If that makes sense (no pocs... it doesn't). Lol. Oh well... you get the gist!

Oooh maybe instead of seeing us as born female and not had chance to experience what it's like to be a male, you could see us as little boys... male but not had much experience. Hmm no 'cos that would be wrong too, as many of us have had rather a lot of experience/have a lot of knowledge.... I think it might be closer though....

Oh well anyway, time I stopped waffling.

[CaptLex]

Oooh maybe instead of seeing us as born female and not had chance to experience what it's like to be a male, you could see us as little boys... male but not had much experience. Hmm no 'cos that would be wrong too, as many of us have had rather a lot of experience/have a lot of knowledge.... I think it might be closer though....

Oh well anyway, time I stopped waffling.

Good point, Poc, at least that's how I feel too. Not quite a grown-up man yet (adolescent, I guess), but definitely male. Good thing I understand waffling . . . it's like a second language to me. :heehee:

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Poc, the way you put it -- being more like younger men/boys who may or may not have much experience in the world -- is far closer than what I intended to say. (Sorry if I offended anyone, I was only one my second cup of coffee when I wrote it and wasn't being my clearest.)

Part of it is the difference between intellectual understanding and actually experiencing something first-hand. For example, I certainly was aware of the safety concerns women face, but it was another thing to actually be walking to my car late at night in heels with a creepy guy who were probably following me. If you or the other guys have lived as men (whether online or offline) then you're going to have those sorts of first-hand experiences.

But part of what I was talking is the socialization, and least for me, being raised as a boy I got a lot different messages than I think I would've gotten had I been raised a girl. And for me, seeing those messages drummed into others wasn't the same thing as experiencing them personally. That's not entirely a bad thing -- for example, I don't think I have the beauty/body issues that many people raised as girls have. But at times, I do feel like "femininity" is a second langauge, rather than being native speaker. That's to say, I may appear outwardly fluent, but there's still nuances I don't always get and it may take focused attention to do.

I don't think people are clueless/naive about switching genders. But on the MTF side, the "pink haze" is well-known and I've seen a number of MTFs who've expressed what I think is an over-idealized vision of what "being a woman" is like. If FTMs manage to avoid this, then I salute you.

CaptLex, I definitely agree it's possible to be empathetic to someone else's experiences even if you aren't identical to them. My point was more that, in my experience, many women don't always show that sort of empathy when it comes to how men's lives are affected by gender roles. ( For example, if I were to relate Das' experience of being an object of fear -- which I've had happen myself -- it probably wouldn't be taken seriously in a lot of feminist circles.) I do think the guys here are far more likely to be aware/sensitive along those lines.

[CaptLex]

CaptLex, I definitely agree it's possible to be empathetic to someone else's experiences even if you aren't identical to them. My point was more that, in my experience, many women don't always show that sort of empathy when it comes to how men's lives are affected by gender roles. ( For example, if I were to relate Das' experience of being an object of fear -- which I've had happen myself -- it probably wouldn't be taken seriously in a lot of feminist circles.) I do think the guys here are far more likely to be aware/sensitive along those lines.
Thanks for clearing that up, Marlena. And I'm sure some future experiences for us will be eye-openers too.

[pocoyo]

Aahhh groovy :happy: :thumbsup: