A guy in a dress with a beard is no threat

[Casey Morgan]

This is open to all.

I've been reading replies in various threads and I think it's time we had a real discussion about this. Some people feel that a guy in a dress with a beard is a bad thing. I've heard things like "he'll give us a bad name", "they make a laughing stock of us", "they're not REAL crossdressers", and all sorts of similar things. I simply don't get what's so bad here.

If he has a beard (and sometimes "he" is not the correct pronoun) and he crossdresses, it seems to me he's just being who he is. Isn't that exactly what we as a community are fighting for, the right to be who we are? Why then is it OK for us to be who we are but it's wrong for him to be who he is?

I also have to wonder just how he's giving us a bad name. Yes, people may/will snicker. Surely there are people snickering at us, too. But it's easy to laugh at something you haven't seen before or aren't familiar with, something that's out of your ordinary experience. But with time the unfamiliar becomes commonplace.

Many of us choose not to crossdress while we have a beard. But the key words there are "we choose". He made a different choice. Different doesn't mean bad, and it doesn't mean we would ever have to consider doing it. I won't button my top button unless I'm wearing a tie. But my nephews do, and I have to seperate my own style from theirs and understand that it's THEIR form of expression.

The one that sticks in my craw is the "he's not a real crossdresser" sentiment. What is a "real crossdresser", and who gets to decide who is and who isn't one? I know I certainly don't have the authority to decide, and I'm not aware of any ruling body that has that authority.

None of us will be truly free until the guy in a dress with a beard is accepted too. (And yes, all of this goes for the guy in a dress without a beard, too.)

So that's my take on that. I'd like to hear yours, whether you agree or not.

[marie354]

Yes Casey... Just who are these "Crossdresser Police" anyway?

We are all doing what we want to do and wearing what we feel is right for us.
What I like to wear might look too old fashioned to you, but you aren't wearing it... I am. I am also properly shaven every day. But the people that sport a full beard while out and about wearing their prettiest dress doesn't make them any less of a crossdresser. A bit bolder than I would be, perhaps, but I'm not them and they're not me. Coo, coo, chi, choo.

[CrossdressinGoth]

Well I know for me I kinda had the idea that no matter what I did Id have that look no matter what. I mean, Ive seen first hand guys with beards and stuff crossdressing and as much as I think they should really try to look the fem way more, I think it adds a touch of character. I mean, yeah we dress to enjoy the nature of feminization, but if a guy can wear womans clothes and still keep that, its kinda a more power to him thing with me.

I mean, regardless of us trying to gain acceptance, you arent going to please everyone. There are genetic girls and guys that do stuff that others frown apon. Each group in society has its ups and downs with things. If the world would be perfect then everyone could do what they wanted and nobody would have to worry about anything. We dont live in a perfect world so I think its best to be open to each persons own choice they make with what they do.

I like the punk/goth look like Ive stated before. With this look I do like to add fem touches to it, so if Im wearing a skirt, fishnets and guy or girl boots, but still be comfortable, i think it should be fine. To frown on a man to dress with facial hair is like frowing on a man or woman that is homosexual because the fact that, that gender is being represented. I hope this is making sense, I can defiently do more explaining if need be.

This is just my opinon, I hope nobody is offended by it and Im truely sorry if anyone is.

[tightsgirl]

it might be some concern if he has a bomb around his waste

[Barb Valentine]

I think it maybe a comfort level
Some people are more comfortable with them selfs
Unlike me that is content to hind the the closet

[CrossdressinGoth]

it might be some concern if he has a bomb around his waste

and what if a woman was to have that same thing? its ok then?

I mean, this "bomb" around a mans waste while crossdressing has nothing to do with this. Its simply about accepting the idea of men with facial hair while dressing. To say a man "cant" crossdress or "isnt" a crossdresser because he has facial hair, well.....why do we accept men that dress with a very very masculine build? Thats not lady like or fem like. Yes woman can have toned bodies, but if you argue the facial hair, where will it lead next? What about all the crossdressers that dont shave legs but where stockings while in public? They still have "unwanted" hair on their body to give crossdressers a supposed bad name. Its almost like saying that a person isnt a crossdresser unless they save their facial hair, save leg hair, wax, do there fingernails and toenails just right, do their makeup just right. There are many levels of homosexuality, do they frown on others because they arent the "perfect" homosexual? Why should we frown on those that arent the "elite" crossdresser.

Its about freedom to express your feminine side in a way that makes you feel good. If you are saying that someone needs to go all out with crossdressing to be accepted as a true crossdresser, then they might as well have a sex change to fit the role that crossdressers go for, so they dont misdirect the public to what crossdressers really stand for.

[Brianna Lovely]

Maybe it's why society in general does not accept cross-dressers, because we do not accept ourselves.

I dress both ways. Sometimes I wear a skirt, tank top, sandals, earings and lipstick and call it my semi-drab mode.

Example, I've gone to the same salon, to have my nails done. I've gone in drab, semi-drab and fully dressed (looking fem) and only recieved a negative comment, when I was semi-drab.

So, I guess people have a problem with the "man in a dress" look. But I don't understand why cros-dressers would react that way too. Of course, I don't understand why so many CDers would be homophobes either.

[Colleentg]

I usually never give a worry about this subject, but not long ago I was horrified! I live in a rather bad neighborhood (crack addicts/sellers, *****s, pimps, etc). One morning while waiting near the street for my ride to work, I saw what looked like a very sexy hooker walking up the street. It was still dark and only the streetlights made anything visible. I watched as 'she' walked my direction, curious if anything. I"ve seen *****s up and down the street before, what's one more? As 'she' approached, I'd say before she was about 30 feet from me, I noticed it wasn't a normal '*****'. Rather, a tall slim guy with a full black beard and mustache wearing a minidress, high heels, hose and carrying a long strapped purse on his shoulders! From the waist down, he looked awesome, but his head/face was surely disgusting. It ruined the look for sure! I guess you had to be there to see yourself to agree with me, but yet, I though how that will create the wrong image of most of us. He was definitely trying to get attention at 5:00 a.m., the only people out were regular crackheads and other *****s, and people leaving for work. He eventually walked towards some guys who were preparing to carpool to work, but when they saw that, they quickly got in their car and left!

******
I apologize for using bad words, which were automatically edited out.

[Kate Simmons]

Casey, I only have one thing to say. Diversity is the lifeblood of humanity. I celebrate diversity and treasure it and accept everyone for who they are. If we were all the same, it would be a pretty dull world indeed. This is true not only of culture in general but sub cultures as well. Anyone who "looks down" on someone else because of appearance is selling themself short and missing a lot by making assumptions. Putting forth some effort to actually get to know someone is hard for most people and it's much easier to stereotype. Before we point at someone else, we should look at the three fingers pointing back at us. Being willing to "widen out" and getting to know people as people is worth the effort in my opinion.Having a beard and wearing a dress is pretty cool I think, even if it's not my personal choice.:happy:

[tightsgirl]

and what if a woman was to have that same thing? its ok then?

I mean, this "bomb" around a mans waste while crossdressing has nothing to do with this. Its simply about accepting the idea of men with facial hair while dressing. To say a man "cant" crossdress or "isnt" a crossdresser because he has facial hair, well.....why do we accept men that dress with a very very masculine build? Thats not lady like or fem like. Yes woman can have toned bodies, but if you argue the facial hair, where will it lead next? What about all the crossdressers that dont shave legs but where stockings while in public? They still have "unwanted" hair on their body to give crossdressers a supposed bad name. Its almost like saying that a person isnt a crossdresser unless they save their facial hair, save leg hair, wax, do there fingernails and toenails just right, do their makeup just right. There are many levels of homosexuality, do they frown on others because they arent the "perfect" homosexual? Why should we frown on those that arent the "elite" crossdresser.

Its about freedom to express your feminine side in a way that makes you feel good. If you are saying that someone needs to go all out with crossdressing to be accepted as a true crossdresser, then they might as well have a sex change to fit the role that crossdressers go for, so they dont misdirect the public to what crossdressers really stand for.

I didn't say any of those things you did!

It was a joke (my comment). You may want to lighten up on the caffine

[kerrianna]

Yay Casey! You rock!

Good point Salandra about the pointing.

"Judge not lest ye be judged."

[Marianna Julianna]

I used to have a beard, and dress, not that I would have gone out like that but at the time it was a compromise I put up with, I wish I'd shaved and started wearing makeup sooner though.

[Trisha]

if a guy whants to wear a dress with a beard thats his busness let freedom ring loud and clear as for me cant do it i hate hair on my face i end up trying to rip my face off :D

[KewTnCurvy GG]

I find this thread facinating as it's been my experience that crossdressers are some (emphasis some, don't ya all get yer undies in a bundle) of the most critical of how ANYONE dresses--period!
I have several TG friends and any one of whom has confided in me when their "sisters" are not around of the horrible transgressions that their fellow "sisters" have made.
I'm always a wee surprised as I am at this thread.
Amazing.
Kew

[mellisa]

For me, it's all about the clothes. PERIOD.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

I didn't say any of those things you did!

It was a joke (my comment). You may want to lighten up on the caffine

Drama Queen, my friend, some do not get sardonic humor.
I say, rock on grrl.
Kew

and for those who may need reference:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sardonic

[Trisha]

i try to be nice to all but yes there is a lot of bad comments out there at times we are not all the same nor should we look the same wear what you like when you like and how you like thats my :2c:

[CrossdressinGoth]

I didn't say any of those things you did!

It was a joke (my comment). You may want to lighten up on the caffine

I figured and such, but I figured I would use that post to kinda help me get more of my view point across. I wasnt mad, upset, whatever you wanna call it by your post. I read it, and figured, hey, this is an opertunity to say more of what I didnt before in my previous post. Im not trying to be the whole "drama queen" about it, just mearly giving my :2c: Sorry I came across with the wrong impression when I quoted what you said, I should've added at the end more to let you and everyone else know that.

[darling_felicity]

One of the reasons that I have really enjoyed this forum, is that almost all correspondents have been really, really tolerant of whatever form the others' CDing takes. A dude with a beard in a dress has never (in my experience) been considered less of a worthy member here than someone who was about to complete transitioning. This actually worried me a bit because I've always perceived that as a very masculine thing. OK, that's fine by me. That has really made GGs the world over mad at their men. o now I'm all confused and am just gonna throw my hands in the air!! Now I sound like a woman! Yayyy!!

Luv, Felicity

[Casey Morgan]

Maybe it's why society in general does not accept cross-dressers, because we do not accept ourselves.

I think there's a lot of truth to that. It's hard to take a group seriously when there's obvious infighting going on.


Of course, I don't understand why so many CDers would be homophobes either.

I agree, although I have to wonder if those three fingers Salandra was talking about are pointed at me here.


I though how that will create the wrong image of most of us

But that's exactly what I don't get. What image is being created, and how does that differ from the/a "right" image of us? What IS the right image of us?

[Kali]

Well, speaking as a guy with a beard who dresses (and in more than just a dress; I go the whole 9 yards except removing my beard) what I've found is there is a general disdain for us from the crossdresser community.

I think that some of it is unintentional; many events simply have a rule, written or unwritten, that says "don't do or wear anything that draws unwanted attention to us" because their goal is to blend in with society. And a person with facial hair in women's clothing draws that attention, be they male or female.

But as I posted in another thread, there is also a segment of the CD community that is mortally offended by a crossdresser who isn't willing to comform to what they believe is the "right" way to do this. They seem to feel that we demean them in some fashion because we have facial hair. And as I said before, just because you dress it doesn't mean that you can't be just as narrowminded and predjudiced as anyone in mainstream society.

Crossdressing soothes my soul. And while I am sensitive to the needs of others, regardless of how I am dressed, I won't let their predjudices dictate how I live my life. While the crossdresser community should be accepting of anyone who dresses because dressing is part of who they are, the reality is that the community is like any other; there are always going to be people who need to define standards of behavior that they find acceptable and try to impose those standards on others.

And to paraphrase that fine libertarian maxim; your right to define how one should crossdress ends at my beard.

[michellebesweet]

I started one of the threads with a Beard and a mustache, and I agree, there is nothing wrong with a CDer in a dress that has a Beard or a Mustache. We all have our own style. Of couse you will not pass, out in the public, with a Beard or Mustache, but to some that does not matter, you do what you have to in order to please yourself, not others.

[Michelle 51]

it might be some concern if he has a bomb around his waste

Your funny Tightsgirl. I like that one Justabit

[Robin Leigh]

Where's Butterfly Bill (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/member.php?u=19777) when you need him? :D

I must admit I prefer the clean-shaven look, but to each their own, I say. I once compromised with a girlfriend: I could CD if I wore a beard. This kept me inside, apart from one very brief excursion. :)

I think a bearded guy in a dress is probably less threatening to the general public than someone who almost passes. It's the ambiguity that's disturbing. But I do love trying to pass...

Robin

[QZ2]

If you want to pass, shave it off. If you aren't worried about passing and you have the guts, leave it on. If you don't have the guts, stay home. Simple.

I have a beard, I dress, and occasionaly go out where I might be seen. Sometimes with a wig and sometimes not. So far I have never had a bad experience.

But I agree wholeheartedly that at least here we should be as accepting and as tolerant of all our sisters ways as we are expecting and hoping the general public will be.

Hugs, Susie:2c:

[Charleen]

I grew a beard for the winter. Only part of the bod I don't shave. When I'm not at work I dress in all fem. Jeans, blouse, boots or sneaks, you get the idea. I also wear mascara, hoop earrings,5 rings 2 of which are fem, and a charm bracelet at all times, even in drab. I won't be wearing a skirt as long as I have the pelt. Just wouldn't feel comfortable drawing the attention. That's me. I dress in woman's clothes because that's who I am. Just got the wrong parts as a "birthday" present. If anyone that sees me wants to think I'm a "sissy" boy, so be it. I am not presenting anything other than who
I am. Beside, the beard is a face warmer in the winter, and as long as I could grow it, I did. I feel the way I look reflects on me alone and not on the "community" in any way. If I was in a dress, yeah, but not my adrogynous look.
Love ans xxxx, Lily

[Jere Oneil]

As I said when I joined the forum. I have a beard and a shaved head. I also stated, I'm not interested in going out in public and trying to look like a woman, although I have nothing but respect for those who do. For me, it is the clothes, and for now, I'll enjoy wearing them in private. If skirts even become accepted for males, I'll be out there in one whenever I feel like it, with my shaved head and beard. But, the main thing, I was warmly welcomed by everyone here.

[marie354]

Where's Butterfly Bill (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/member.php?u=19777) when you need him? :D

I must admit I prefer the clean-shaven look, but to each their own, I say. I once compromised with a girlfriend: I could CD if I wore a beard. This kept me inside, apart from one very brief excursion. :)

I think a bearded guy in a dress is probably less threatening to the general public than someone who almost passes. It's the ambiguity that's disturbing. But I do love trying to pass...

Robin

I was going to ask where he was in my earlier post. He doesn't have any problems about being seen in a dress and he has a full beard. You got to admire him.

[lynn27]

I usually never give a worry about this subject, but not long ago I was horrified! I live in a rather bad neighborhood (crack addicts/sellers, *****s, pimps, etc). One morning while waiting near the street for my ride to work, I saw what looked like a very sexy hooker walking up the street. It was still dark and only the streetlights made anything visible. I watched as 'she' walked my direction, curious if anything. I"ve seen *****s up and down the street before, what's one more? As 'she' approached, I'd say before she was about 30 feet from me, I noticed it wasn't a normal '*****'. Rather, a tall slim guy with a full black beard and mustache wearing a minidress, high heels, hose and carrying a long strapped purse on his shoulders! From the waist down, he looked awesome, but his head/face was surely disgusting. It ruined the look for sure! I guess you had to be there to see yourself to agree with me, but yet, I though how that will create the wrong image of most of us. He was definitely trying to get attention at 5:00 a.m., the only people out were regular crackheads and other *****s, and people leaving for work. He eventually walked towards some guys who were preparing to carpool to work, but when they saw that, they quickly got in their car and left!

Colleen's post exhibits the very prejudices that are the subject of this tread. She called this person a “sexy hooker”, a “she”, an “it”, and finally a “guy” and a “he”, she goes from perceiving her as a “sexy hooker” to an “it”. I am sure Colleen didn’t mean to say anything demeaning but even she had trouble reconciling the conflicted image before her. How can we expect the “typical” person to understand and accept the image of a “bearded lady”? “His body was awesome, but his head/face was disgusting”

I agree totally with Susie’s reply.
If you want to pass, shave it off. If you aren't worried about passing and you have the guts, leave it on. If you don't have the guts, stay home. Simple. I have a beard, I dress, and occasionally go out where I might be seen. Sometimes with a wig and sometimes not. So far I have never had a bad experience. But I agree wholeheartedly that at least here we should be as accepting and as tolerant of all our sisters ways as we are expecting and hoping the general public will be. Hugs, Susie The reason I have not posted a photo of Lynn is because I’m still hiding behind a beard because I fear a few people may suspect and my beard is “proof” to them that I ain’t “that way”. I would never ask my friends much less strangers to understand and accept the conflicting image of a bearded lady. My SO has a hard enough time with it. Until I can shave my beard I’ll refrain from dressing for others. I still can enjoy dressing just for myself. I believe we each have to do what is best for us first, then what is best for our family and friends and finally our “community”. And within our “community” we should always try to be supportive.

[JoAnnDallas]

I had a beard until I came to Dallas in 2005. I shaved it all off, because I was job hunting and if made my look younger. When your over 55 you pull all the stops out in getting a new job. LOL

[Tina B.]

Enough of this talk about tolerants, We don't need men with beards out there, or the ones that are to tall to pass, and if you wear a size larger than an 8 your too big to pass, or if you have to wear a wig, instead of your own hair, it might come off, and embarrass some of us, Or if your voice is to deep, you shouldn't be out there talking to people. If you dress to ****ty you will embarrass the more conservative of us. And if you look too mansculine, just admit it, and don't come out. And now that, that is decieded, just think how much more room there will be out in the clubs, and all the stuff that will still be in the stores, that CD'ers won't need to buy, for the girls that are petite, young and pretty.
Sounds like a very small, and lonley group to me, but then society at large will be happy because the only ones left can pass and no one will know they are there.
The question keeps coming up around here, Are in normal, I think we are, we seem to have all the same prejudices as the rest of the world!
Tina B.

[lynn27]

Enough of this talk about tolerants, We don't need men with beards out there, or the ones that are to tall to pass, and if you wear a size larger than an 8 your too big to pass, or if you have to wear a wig, instead of your own hair, it might come off, and embarrass some of us, Or if your voice is to deep, you shouldn't be out there talking to people. If you dress to ****ty you will embarrass the more conservative of us. And if you look too mansculine, just admit it, and don't come out. And now that, that is decieded, just think how much more room there will be out in the clubs, and all the stuff that will still be in the stores, that CD'ers won't need to buy, for the girls that are petite, young and pretty.
Sounds like a very small, and lonley group to me, but then society at large will be happy because the only ones left can pass and no one will know they are there.
The question keeps coming up around here, Are in normal, I think we are, we seem to have all the same prejudices as the rest of the world!
Tina B.Don't really know how to take this post. Are you serious or is this ALL tougue in cheek? Hope this post wasn't in response to what I said. Hope we not fighting about nothing here.:hugs: I assume you meant "tolerance" and "We don't need CDer's...

[Casey Morgan]

It's nice to hear that so many people share my viewpoint. That said, communication is a skill, and admittedly it's one I'm still working on. I'm not used to starting a "debate" (and I mean that in the positive sense) type of thread. Perhaps I stated my position too strongly, and some are seeing it as a "dare to prove me wrong" thread?

I really am interested in hearing from people who think a bearded crossdresser is a bad thing. (Colleen, my questions in my subsequent post are just that BTW: questions.) I honestly want to know where you're coming from. I may not agree with your opinion but I'd like to understand it, if that makes sense. (It does in my head but sometimes when it gets "on paper" it doesn't come out right.) Rereading colleen's post I think I'm understanding that viewpoint but I'd rather know than assume.

And Butterfly Bill was definitely somebody I was thinking of when I started this thread. :happy:

[Kate Simmons]

Nah, I feel your thread has a valid point Casey. I also want to know everyone's honest opinion. As far as tolerance, I feel this way. If we, being who we are, cannot be tolerant of folks in our own "community" who are a little "different", how can we possibly ever hope for mainline society to be? When do we get to the point where superficial things don't mean that much and are just seen as a means of personal expression and the person is the important thing? Granted it may take some getting used to but it shows who we really are inside and what we are made of.:happy:

[Butterfly Bill]

As I have already said numerous times, I think I get more acceptance when I am unabashed about my masculinity inside the femininiity of how I am dressed than I would if I were trying to pass and fool people into thinking I am a woman. As I am, I am challenging the gender role expectations and declaring my freedom; as someone trying to pass, I wpold be embracing them and supporting them and continuing their oppression.

And I also just plain don't like shaving, especially after being in the Navy, and don't want to have to keep doing it every day.

And I don't really need to go to Tri-Ess meetings, as I can find all the support I need from regular people who may or may not crossdressers themselves.

[marie354]

Hey, if Butterfly bill can wear a dress around town sporting a beard isn't that a good thing for us all. I mean it definately shows that men like dresses just as much as some women, doesn't it? Isn't it a statment like... "We want to wear whatever we want and can't you accept that?"
Nothing wrong with it in my book, but I like all types of people.

[Jammie Lyann]

Ok here is my point of view,
If the person chooses to stay unshaven then that is his choice,
It doesnt make Him/her any less of a CDer, it just means that he probably doesn't go out in public , beside do you know how hard it is to spot or out a person that is a CDer that doesnt shave.
I like, many of the rest of us shave I prefer to look more fem even in drab so on the flip side I get more hassle for it. but that is my choice.

Beside I have a GG friend that has to shave about every 2 weeks because she has facial hair, just a small patch under her chin an a few hairs above her lip, it doesnt change the fact that she is a woman just because she has facial hair.

[KimberlyS]

Casey, This is a great post. I very much so understand and feel the same way as I consider myself to be a guy in a dress type of CDer. And I have been in several discussions with the other CDer being in disbelief that I would not want to try and pass, all CDers need to pass, why would I not want to look as sexy and feminine as possible, being a guy in a skirt would be unacceptable and would be giving all CDers/TGs a bad name. But I must state that this forum is one of the best forums for keeping the blatant bad comments under control.

But as Kali states, I think much of the feel I get from posts is unintentional as people do not always see the affects of their words. As an example, most people do not see all the talk/posts about passing as pushing others to "Pass" and "Be More of a CDer". Even though those posts are just the opinion of the posters or who the posters are as a CDer and person; a CDer who has not accepted them self and is searching to find out who they are, seem to take posts like these as a direction they need to go.

And how can I say that. Take a look at the threads/posts here. How many posts talk about looking pretty, looking more feminine, looking like a girl/woman, perfecting my feminine look, "Passing", not going out because one can not pass, progressing in one's crossdressing,..... There are a lot of them. Then look at the number of post talking about, being a guy in femme clothes, a good looking guy in feminine clothes, going out and not "Passing", it is ok to be who you are as a crossdresser and not progress on,.... There are some threads/posts, but most are of the previous type. And I find this similar on the CD sites I have been to.

I see comments in posts stating that most CDers could never pass. Or many cders only wear one or a few items. But there are not the many threads that support this. Even the good we need to be who we are threads do not get the attention like the passing threads do, and quickly get lost deep in the thread list.

So unintentionally, I think being more of a CDer and "Passing" is seen as the way to be. And this is mostly just because of the amount of information there is on it. And then add to that those that do push to be more of a CDer and one needs to pass.

And yes there are those that more blatantly push CDing but I see much more of that on one other forum that I go to than on this one. And additionally I see more of the pushing coming from a couple of smaller sub-groups of CDers.
- The first is those CDers that seem to be still struggling with who they are.
- The second is those that CDing is more sexual or a sexual fetish.
- The third, the gay CDers.
- And the Forth, the fantasy fetish CDers.

The last three tend to like the more feminine and sexy looking CDers and also seem to me more vocal and not shy about who they are very forward in what they want.

I also see other unintentional things that I see happening are:

The CDers that accept themselves, dress fully and/or go out, seem to be more comfortable with themselves and more vocal about it.

The CDers that do not fully dress, do not go out and/or may one wear one or a few items, seem less vocal. I have no theory as to why. Would some of them step forward and scream!! Ok tell us why.

I think one of the best things along this subject line if have seen is:

"Standard disclaimer: Going out of the house was right for me, it may or may not be right for you. If you've got no desire to leave the house, that's fine, I'm not trying to push you out the door. But for those who've been yearning to do so, I just want to let you the world may not be as scary a place as you think.
Marlena "

Learn to accept yourself, it makes it easier for others to accept you, and you to accept others.

KimberlyS-CD
Joe in a skirt

[Tina B.]

Don't really know how to take this post. Are you serious or is this ALL tougue in cheek? Hope this post wasn't in response to what I said. Hope we not fighting about nothing here.:hugs: I assume you meant "tolerance" and "We don't need CDer's...

Totally, tougue in cheek, I think people worry to much about how others express themselves. I think Butterfly is cool, to go to town the way he does, I think the girls that pass, and want to, is also cool. But for me, I am happy playing dress up at home, and that's all I want or need, and I think that's alright too.
People should not worry about anyone giving us a bad image, The only one that can give you a bad image, is you. It's like saying all gay men would have a better image, it there where no flambouynt gays out there.
I used to belong to a fourm where all the TS girls spent there time trying to convince everyone if you are a CD'er/TV you where the odd one, and you had to be TS for any of this to make sense. I always found that odd. Why is it that so many people can't see anything but there on veiw of the world, me I'm and old hippie, and I belive we all jsut need to take of ourselves, and let others do what they need to do to take care of themselves.
Frank Sinatra once said "Religon or Booze, what ever gets you through the night" I think it also applies to us.
Tina B.

[kerrianna]

I think a bearded guy in a dress is probably less threatening to the general public than someone who almost passes. It's the ambiguity that's disturbing. But I do love trying to pass...

Robin

That's an interesting observation. So are you saying that people are more threatened if they think someone is trying to fool them? Obviously a bearded guy in a dress isn't trying to 'pull a fast one'.

If that is the case, that people don't like to think someone is trying to 'fool them', it would explain some of the negative reaction to crossdressers in general. Maybe they're thinking "it's a hard enough world to figure out as it is, why do you have to make it more complicated? Stick to the role we gave you!" Which is ironic seeing as we clap merrily when actors fool us, and we allow ourselves to be fooled by advertisers, polticians, etc....

I'm a bit off-topic, so to swing back I had a beard all my life, it was one of the few things I did well as a male (well, a couple of others too but now I'm bragging :heehee: )
I always thought I looked pretty sexy anyway, although the beard presented to myself a visual dichotomy that was confusing and exciting and interesting at the same time.

I finally shaved it off this fall for two reasons:
- it had turned white and made me look old.
- I would never know how 'passable' I would look with it on.

Oddly enough I still haven't pursued the latter - I guess it's not high on the agenda at this time.

I sure resent shaving all the time though.

[Julie York]

The confusion in this 'debate' is you are mixing up public perception with internal CD politics.

The public perception is simple.....totally unhampered by experience or balanced judgement of character.

1) A woman who may be a guy is creepy because is it a guy or a woman? And who are they trying to fool?

2) A guy in a dress is probably some sicko....but live and let live just make sure he doesn't come near me or my kids.

3) A guy with a beard who is wearing a dress is mentally ill or taking the piss.

It doesn't matter what WE think.

[Sharon]

I have learned -- disappointingly to me -- that crossdressers are just as intolerant as any other group of people, especially with other crossdressers.

To each their own as someone has already said. Just because a person has a different attitude, or a different way of expressing themselves, doesn't make them any less entitled to be who they are.

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

I agree that there is no set rule however my choice is and always will be to honor my femine side by being the best I can be. If the best you can be is "a guy in a dress with a beard" than who am I to pass judgement. We are all the same and all different, thats what makes us all special in our own way.

[Di]

There is no right or wrong here......the thing is...be yourself...that is it....you have no one to answer too but yourself and your partner. As far as the beard thing with some GG's that I know personally...that is what they would much rather have. In my case NO...totally the opp........but thats what makes the world go around.

[Kali]

I agree that there is no set rule however my choice is and always will be to honor my femine side by being the best I can be. If the best you can be is "a guy in a dress with a beard" than who am I to pass judgement. We are all the same and all different, thats what makes us all special in our own way.

Well this should qualify as the most judgmental post in this thread.

You've decided that the only proper way to be a crossdresser is to be someone who tries to pass, just like you, and anyone who doesn't fit your predjudices isn't the best they can be. I'm sorry that you feel that you have to "honor your femine side" and can't just simply accept that crossdressing is simply part of who you are and not a separate entity within you.

I guarantee that my "best" at anything I choose to do is likely far better than yours, but crossdressing for most here isn't about choice; it's about a deep-seated need.

But thank you for so graphically, if unintentionally, illustrating the point that Sharon made in the post before yours and so many other have made throughout the thread. Intolerance for those who are different is alive and well in this community.

[Catherine in Colo]

Kali,

You made the latest in what has been a long line of great points about perception, tolerance, and individuality. There's not much I can add to the overall argument, which is basically - be yourself and be happy with yourself.

Having said that, I've got a couple observations:

First, what does the term crossdresser mean? In its most deconstructed form, it simply refers to someone who wears the clothes of the opposite gender. That's all. It says nothing about what they do or how they feel or act when wearing those clothes.

And this is where it gets complicated. It's in those specifics that we find every other label - tg, ts, drag queen, other others I'm not 'hip' enough to know. But in the end, we make the same mistake that every other person makes in every other situation. We assume that everyone else wants the same things we do. If we are like Sandra, we want to look and feel as feminine as possible, which is a wonderful goal - for her. But we don't all want to "pass", and we don't all want to "feel feminine". There are too many other reasons to dress to list here. That is just one.

Secondly, maybe a cd who is not trying to pass has made that choice in order to push boundaries, or open minds, so that folks learn that not all cds are perverts, or for some other completely personal reason. It occured to me that maybe those cds who seek to pass are the least courageous of all cds. Please keep in mind that I'm NOT trying to start a flame war here, just offering a different perspective, not even one I necessarily share. If you are a cd who can pass, and who enjoys it, fantastic. But from one viewpoint, couldn't that be seen as the easy way out? Could the community as a whole question what those 'passers' are doing to help further the "cause"? Of course not, at least I don't. But, those who can pass are able to more easily avoid scrutiny and ridicule because they aren't usually seen as cds unless they choose to be seen as cds. And isn't that what a cd with a beard is doing? Choosing to be seen as a cd?

It's very shortsighted to see each of us as being on a different part of the same journey. Just because we see some 40 year old playing football in a park, do we assume he's still trying to make it to the NFL? By the same token, not every cd aspires to be a post-op ts. And to frown upon or pity the cd who is happy dressing and not passing, whether (s)he has a beard or not, is the result of the same pre-judgements and assumptions that make it harder for the cds in the first place.

Thanks all for the wonderful and insightful conversation!

Take care,
Renee

[annecwesley]

I look forward to the day when I can shave off my beard! It is one of the lines my wife has drawn, becasue she knows I would go out enfem if I could.

It never occured to me to go out in public sporting a beard in a dress. I've sneaked around in the dark hiding my face just to enjoy the feel of freely walking around outside, and I considered a halloween outing. I don't know of any support groups in my area, but if I went it would have to be bearded, dressed or not.

Anne

[Robin Leigh]

That's an interesting observation. So are you saying that people are more threatened if they think someone is trying to fool them? Obviously a bearded guy in a dress isn't trying to 'pull a fast one'.

If that is the case, that people don't like to think someone is trying to 'fool them', it would explain some of the negative reaction to crossdressers in general. Maybe they're thinking "it's a hard enough world to figure out as it is, why do you have to make it more complicated? Stick to the role we gave you!"Basically, but I also have to agree with Julie York's comments.


Which is ironic seeing as we clap merrily when actors fool us, and we allow ourselves to be fooled by advertisers, polticians, etc....It comes down to context. Actors are allowed to fool us: that's what we pay them for. But people generally despise the advertisers, polticians, etc. that lie to them.


I'm a bit off-topic, so to swing back I had a beard all my life, it was one of the few things I did well as a male (well, a couple of others too but now I'm bragging :heehee: )
I always thought I looked pretty sexy anyway, although the beard presented to myself a visual dichotomy that was confusing and exciting and interesting at the same time.When dressing with a beard, you just learn to avoid looking at it. :)


I finally shaved it off this fall for two reasons:
- it had turned white and made me look old.
- I would never know how 'passable' I would look with it on.

Oddly enough I still haven't pursued the latter - I guess it's not high on the agenda at this time.Do it! :D

Just kidding, you'll do it when you're ready. Sometimes we have the perfect opportunity to fulfil a CDing fantasy and we get cold feet. Sometimes our caution is well-founded. But sometimes, we just have to break through the barriers we've created for ourselves...


I sure resent shaving all the time though. I know that feeling. :) There's a new laser hair-removal place just across the street from me. If I was richer, I'd be tempted. I got a card in my mailbox from them the other day for a free trial patch...

:hugs:

Robin

[Teresa Amina]

There's a new laser hair-removal place just across the street from me. If I was richer, I'd be tempted. I got a card in my mailbox from them the other day for a free trial patch...

Across the street! Lucky you...I drive nearly 150 miles to have my "zappings" done.
To me "a guy in a dress with a beard" would seem to be a bigger challenge to peoples' concept of social order than someone trying to "Pass". For most people the duality of gender is absolute, and to combine the two must really freak them out.

[lowlavalentine]

Personally, I prefer no facial hair in boy mode or girl mode, but hey, if it works for you, go for it. It may not be for everyone, but in the Baskin-Robbins spectrum of crossdressing, it is just flavor number 32.

Lowla

[Charleen]

I was clean shaven from June to October, and even though I did not wear a dress, am 6'1" in sneaks, dress like I described in my other post, I was called Ma'am on many occasions. Or at other times the unwashed was just confused. I realised that passing isn't that important to me. Yeah, it was neat to be taken for a woman, but for me, the way I dress is an expression of me and who I know I am. Regardless if I have fungus on my face or not.
We as a community run the gamut from panties once a year to post-op and EVERYTHING in between. To each his/her own! One is not any more correct than another. If you are happy with what you do, Malzel tov! That does mean it's right for anyone else.
For me, my tag says it- comfortable in my own skin. I wish that for everyone!
Love and xxxx, Lily

[celeste26]

where the guy in a dress with a beard is accepted then all of us will be accepted.

[Robin Leigh]

Across the street! Lucky you...I drive nearly 150 miles to have my "zappings" done.I'm kinda spoiled here. I live in a very femme area. Next door to the laser place is a groovy hair salon / clothing boutique. On the other side is a wedding shop, which is next to a Japanese beauty parlour. I'm virtually surrounded by various hair & beauty salons. At last count, there were over a dozen places that do manicures within 10 minutes walk, including 3 dedicated nail salons.


To me "a guy in a dress with a beard" would seem to be a bigger challenge to peoples' concept of social order than someone trying to "Pass". For most people the duality of gender is absolute, and to combine the two must really freak them out.In some ways, yes, but it's easier to mentally deal with an obvious guy in a dress than an ambiguous passing CDer. As Julie York has so eloquently expressed it, a bearded guy in a dress is probably just a harmless loonie, or a bloke having a joke. But a CD trying to look femme & sexy is very threatening, especially if they're fairly passable.

:hugs:

Robin

[MistressAnnie]

Well it seems I fit that category. It was always my belief that a crossdresser was someone who liked to dress in the clothes of the opposite gender, no mention of looking convincing. Whereas a transvestite is similar but trys to look convincing. I may be wrong but that is me. :tongueout

[cindychan]

I'm sure these people have certain reasons for what they do. I actully saw a bearded man in a dress get out of his car when it broke down on the highway a couple months ago. The only thing that really made me scared of him was his enormous size, the beard only made me curious.

[marie354]

A guy in a dress with a beard should be less threatening as he isn't trying to pass or fool anyone. He just wants to feel more comfortable. And believe me a dress or skirt in the heat of summer is a lot more comfortable that pants would ever be.
Now A guy that IS trying to pass is a major threat to a lot of men. They are so worried about getting involved with one of us and finding out after they fall in love it scares them to death. Just where would their manhood be if they fell for another man, even if he looked like a woman.
So I can understand some of their fears. I'm sure that's why some men feel that they have to beat people like us. It makes them feel more "manly" and to keep us at bay and hiding from them makes them feel more secure in that there is a much lesser possibility that he will ever fall for a "man in a dress".

[Kieron]

Man with beard checking in :) My first post too, blimey...

It's an interesting area, with so many definitions of Transvestism, where even an attempt to end up with some rough guidelines careers off into a huge thread with a thousand different arguments. But, for me, there's a divide between two camps. One seems to be largely based around the idea of rejecting masculinity/embracing femininity. Female names are taken, limbs and faces are waxed, and threads are started about passing. This is not me, for the following fundamental reason:

I don't want to be a girl

Never have, never will. A while ago I realised that girls get all the best clothes, shoes and makeup, and thought it was pretty impolite of them not to share. But I'm a man in girls clothes, and that's all I am. I’m not a big fan of what’s thought of as overtly masculine behaviour; I like doing my hair, nails, makeup, and writing long introspective posts on internet message boards . But within my frame of reference, none of these traits is exclusively, or even overwhelmingly, feminine.

In the end, I’m a man struggling to express who he is in the face of a cultural duality that I believe is largely a Victorian invention. To me it seems important that I keep the beard and the name Kieron, because I’m trying to show that men have many options when it comes to self-expression, and that taking some of those options is no less an expression of my self and my masculinity than drinking twenty pints and having a fight outside a kebab shop.

Does this make me a CD, a TV, or a toaster? In the end I don't really care. I know who I am, and that's all I can really hope for.

[JenniferMBlack]

To shave or not to shave that is the question? I for one have a gotee and have in the past been clean shaven. I have been out in many states of dress both with the gotee and without and the reaction has pretty much been the same either way. from a distance I can almost pass but up close no matter what I look like a guy in a dress. For me though at least at this point in time I have no desire to pass and am very content on just wearing a skirt most of the time.

[Paulacder]

If I said what I thought about a guy with a beard while wearing a dress they would ban me from this forum. As far as I'm concerned he is makeing a mokery of all crossdressers. As much time and effort we put forth to dress with some degree of dignity and taste it is wiped out when John Q Public see's someone with a beard in a dress, it gives our whole community a black eye.

[Sharon]

If I said what I thought about a guy with a beard while wearing a dress they would ban me from this forum. As far as I'm concerned he is makeing a mokery of all crossdressers. As much time and effort we put forth to dress with some degree of dignity and taste it is wiped out when John Q Public see's someone with a beard in a dress, it gives our whole community a black eye.

Nonsense -- how does another person's appearance affect anyone else? Do you judge all men and women by how one individual presents themself? It shouldn't be any different for crossdressers.

[Kali]

If I said what I thought about a guy with a beard while wearing a dress they would ban me from this forum. As far as I'm concerned he is makeing a mokery of all crossdressers. As much time and effort we put forth to dress with some degree of dignity and taste it is wiped out when John Q Public see's someone with a beard in a dress, it gives our whole community a black eye.

My dressing and having a beard makes a mockery of crossdressing in the same way that your spelling skills skills make a mockery of the educational system.

Well actually, that's not true. I in no way to dress to mock those who need to crossdress; after all, I'm one of those people to whom crossdressing is simply part of what makes me, me. There is no pretense about my need to dress, nor do I do it to ridicule anyone. If anything, going out dressed only exposes me to ridicule, since I'm quite clearly a man in a dress. Frankly if I didn't have a beard I would still look like a man in a dress.

Your spelling skills, on the other hand, mock those of us to whom the idea of presenting a written concept clearly and with meaning, is important. And the mockery must be intentional, since spell checking and online dictionaries are easily used.

Of course, your poor spelling skills also make it more difficult for people to take you seriously, since many people make the presumption that the ability to spell and express oneself are indications of intelligence. And given the virulent nature of your post it becomes easy to write you off as a bigoted kook.

Then again, none of the above may apply at all, but it is very easy to make judgements about people that you know nothing about from the safety of your keyboard. And you are entitled to your opinion, as narrowminded and shortsighted as it may be.

Thank you to those of you who are understanding and accepting of those of us with facial hair. To the rest of you, you've given me a far better understanding of how my gay and lesbian friends see the world and why they treasure the gender-blindness that has always been part of my worldview, perhaps because of the feelings my crossdressing engenders.

[KimberlyS]

If I said what I thought about a guy with a beard while wearing a dress they would ban me from this forum. As far as I'm concerned he is makeing a mokery of all crossdressers. As much time and effort we put forth to dress with some degree of dignity and taste it is wiped out when John Q Public see's someone with a beard in a dress, it gives our whole community a black eye.

Paul, thank you for proving that we need to do as much work for acceptance within the TG community as we need to do in the general public. And BTW, I personally include within the TG community, anyone that does not fit the "Normal" society Male Female model. This includes but not limited to, gay, bi, cd, tv, dq, dk, ts, ......

I personally find that I have more acceptance from others since I have accepted myself and not tried to be someone I was not and not trying to fool other people. I find people questioning or surprised, but not in my face or showing signs of disgust. And yes some people find it funny. But I have thought goth, piercing and other groups can be funny to me until I learn more about it. And I use direct questions to me while out either in male or female presentation as a way to educate others. And they seem to appreciate me taking the time to answer their questions.

I hope someday you will learn that everyone "EVERYONE" is different and we need to accept others for who they are. There is enough hate in this world and I really try hard not to add to it.

KimberlyS-CD
Joe in a skirt

[Paulacder]

Sorry about the spelling, I was in a hurry and only had a few minutes. I guess you will have to excuse my edgumacation, dang it I dun it agian. :D :heehee:

[Kali]

Sorry about the spelling, I was in a hurry and only had a few minutes. I guess you will have to excuse my edgumacation, dang it I dun it agian. :D :heehee:



Might want to check the tag line under your user name. ;) There's no "e" in "loving."

[cindychan]

Isn't there a term for people that crossdress only partly or halfway? I can see paula's point but you got to remember there is a reason why the person wants to retain the beard. This is similar to the 1970's erra where TGs where looked poorly on by the gay community. We were considered a foul offshoot of being gay. Over the last couple of decades that community worked with us and supported us as equals. Now we got different degrees of TGs and need to accept them no matter what beard or no beard.

[Casey Morgan]

Isn't there a term for people that crossdress only partly or halfway?

There are a couple of them actually. The one I use to describe my day-to-day style is interdressing.

And Kieron, welcome to the forums. :happy:

[krisinpink]

I have a goatee...my GG loves the way it looks on me, and I have had similar comments from other GG friends. Understanding (and agreeing with) these opinons means I will be keeping the facial hair.

Here is the rub: I dress to some extend virtually daily, I shave most everyplace regularly..I love how it looks and feels. I go out wearing girl jeans, shoes, and undergarments pretty commonly. I dress a lot at home, and would love to do so with a group of other CD/TVs. I shop regularly, and try on shoes and clothes w/o any trouble from anyone. There is no doubt that I won't pass with my facial hair, but that doesn't make me less a CD. There have been times I've have shaved my face, dressed fully and gone out -it really is fun. Having the facial hair does mean that I can't get serious about trying to pass. I don't feel that my GG is suggesting I keep the facial hair as a means of curtailing my outdoor CDing adventures, I think she just likes the look on me better with the goatee.

I have attened a CD support group meeting, and was asked not to dress because of my goatee. I'm cool with this. (also had a really fun time talking, sharing stories, and shopping recommendations) An earlier post on this thread hit this topic...it really is that facial hair with dresses does draw unwanted attention. This is a reasonable request on the part of that group.

I've never felt slighted by other CDers because of my facial hair, although I've been strongly encouraged by some to remove it. It really is about choice and the bottom line is how much do you want to try passing, and how much do you want to keep facial hair?

I've not felt any negative energy from anyone in this forum about those of us with beards etc. I guess I've done nothing more in this post than babble about myself and my feelings...guess I didn't have anything profound to say, but I felt I just had to chime in on this topic...guess I'll stop for now and get back to trying blouse and jewerly combinations here at home!! (got a new top this week and just LOVE how it looks and feels)

hugs!

[Catherine in Colo]

Casey totally stole my thunder, but my answer would have been what I posted earlier - I don't think the term crossdresser speaks to how much a person dresses.

Panties under work clothes = crossdresser. Dress, heels and the whole nine yards = crossdresser. Some of the other terms (tg, tv, ts), I think, speak more to the motivation behind crossdressing, not that act itself.

But that's not my point. Paula, I have to say that I was rather taken-aback by your statement. First, it seems to me as though you said exactly what you wanted to say, and second, it doesn't appear as though you were banned from the forum for having said it. The day that happens is the day when folks with your point of view win, and that'll be the same day I leave the forum.

Please keep in mind that YOUR idea of what is dignified and tasteful is NOT the same as mine, or anyone else's. Personally, I think there is nothing more dignified than a cd courageous enough to be who they are, even if that means walking outside in a skirt, sporting a beard, and trying to change people's perceptions.

Besides, if you think so little of John Q Public and his/her ability to discern between a pervert and your version of a "normal" cd, why would you think they'd see one bit of difference between you and and Ms. skirt and beard? Any time one of us acts in a proud and dignified manner, we do our 'cause' justice. Otherwise, we're reinforcing the shallow stereotypes of others by being shallow ourselves.

Take care,
Renee

[Juanita O]

i don't like to shave every day so I go with a few days with a beard. I know that i won't pass as a girl. So what difference does it make if we have facial hair or not.

[roberta1945]

:2c: I am a big old fat man I love wearing womens clothes I am a crossdresser I couldn't pass for a woman if my life depended on it.
I am a guy in a dress.
:love: :hugs: Roberta

[kerrianna]

Man with beard checking in :) My first post too, blimey...
.

Kieron, that was a great post. You gotta post more man. :hugs: :love:

[Tina B.]

Those that go out and really pass as women, do not really help the movement for CD’ers to be excepted, because no one knows they are there. Those that try to pass, but don’t quiet make it, hurt the movement, because of the homophobia that runs rampant in our society. The guy with the beard stands out and says, I’m not trying to fool anyone, and am no threat to anyone's femminity, or masculinity. So maybe, just maybe, the guy with the beard just might be the best thing for us!
Tina B.
No I don’t wear a beard, and I am clean shaven. But I couldn't fool anybody!

(any miss spelled words are the fault of Bill Gates, I tried to check them)

[annecwesley]

I've been reading the posts about beards and the one about "Would you wearing a skirt in drab?" It never occurred to me to try to go out in public in a skirt without trying to look female or to pass (which I can't do).

This morning I put on a long skirted suit with flats. Looking in the mirror, though it is definitely female attire, I was struck with how plain and almost unisex it looked. That got me thinking that maybe I would try to go out dressed, beard notwithstanding, and that the key to enjoying it might be the right outfit and location and the right attitude about being noticed.

The next time I'm in Boston I'll definitely give it a try.