Manhood devalued-another reason men dressup?

[Alice Torn]

I was born in 1954, and I can still remembere television shows, like "Father Knows Best", "Leave it to Beaver", "Bonanza", "The Andy Griffith Show", and all the westerns, that made the male energfy, and fatherhood, look great, at its best, such as in "The Rifleman", John Wayne movies, etc. "The Honeymooners", with Jackie Gleason, and "Blondie:, the cartoon, started showing men, as bumbling jackasses. Then, Fred Flintstone, and Barnie Rubble, two bumbling husbands! Then, radio, and television commercials, more, and more, showed bumbling men, and smarter women. Then, the sho, "Married with Children", showed a real goofis, Al Bundy. I am not the only guy, who has noticed this PROGRESSIVE WAR against masculinity, and fatherhood, but, FEW EVER ADDRESS IT. I am not saying that I , or others, can blame hollywood, or commercialism, and their eroding of the male energy, and shaming of the male energy, but, by cracky, it has influenced all Americans. At the exact SAME time, the FEMALE ENERGY, has been praised, and EXALTED. I believe it has had some, how be it, maybe only a LITTLE, on crossdressing, in guys. For the past 35 years, women have been "on a roll", "spreading their wings", not needing men anymore! I hear this from so many gg's, who have divorced their men, and are "free from a man", "spreading their wings", enjoying life, now. IF, our society, and hollywood, and advertising, had been still highly respecting men, and fatherhood, and the male energy, as in the past, I think things would be at least, a little different, psychologically, on cd's, too, since many of us, just don't like our male side. Some do. Thanks for letting me comment.

[Elly]

Comedy is comedy and needs the bumbeling jackass to perpetuate the humor of the shows, comic strips , ect... as for those old shows where a man was a man, then i can't see how having those around would be good for the CD community, as i remember them if the guy son whatever didn't go out and hunt, kill, fish, ect then they were considered a sissy and good for nothing i fail to see how that kind of negativity to young sensetive ppl could be benificial in any way...

[Staci G]

Tell it sis
In fact we are obsolete (meaning male) women dont need us to have a baby anymore there is enough sperm in banks to populate a small 3rd world nation.

So I figure we are the weaker of the sexes and it is time to join the ranks of the stronger gender.. Therefor I crossdress
I knew there was a rhyme to this reason

[noname]

Good post. I recently saw TV as my sisters place. ( I don't get TV where I live. ) To make a long story short, they show women with a product and of course they are smart and sexy. In the commercial, outside the window the guy BBQ'ing and gets into with the dog, knocking the BBQ over, falling in the mud, scrambling for the extengisher trying to figure out how to use it. But there is a core message in media today.

The core message is that women are smart and sexy and the two are joined. Men are protrayed as stupid and clumsy. If comedy is needed, why not just throw in a violent sexual assult with a kick to the crotch. Because a physical assult on ones sexual organs is always a good laugh.

I have read the womens movement has continued to move into areas formerly male including clothing. Men today have fewer and fewer choices in life and self expression. This was considered a possible reason why more and more men are having identity issues. Let's face it, men today can't even breath without it being considered girly.

As a side note, my sisters family loves the old show bonanza. It was weird to watch an old black and white show with blatant sexism. One guy insulted the other guy calling him a sissy girl with a sleezy grin as if he had given him the worlds worst possible insult.

I'd also like to see todays media both print and visual, with the sex rolls reversed. You'd see the womens groups angery, just foaming at the mouth.

[JoAnnDallas]

I have also noticed commericals where one man goes up to another and tell him "I love you man", then crys and they hug or the snickers commerical where the two men start eating the same snicker and end up kissing.

Then you have mainstream movies like "TransAmerica" and "Brokeback Mountain" that slews Muscularity. When I was growing up these two would have been "Adult Films" or "Foriegn Films".

Yep, I think the roles have switched. Women are being shown as the more dominate, smart, sexy person and the man is being shown as the dumb, girly type.

[Kate Simmons]

Possibly Lucille but I take a different tact. When do you get to the point where you can cut through the smokescreen of entertainment and advertising and media hype? Being your own person and an individual makes all the difference, no matter what the "masses" say. I've always marched to the beat of my own drum whether I'm a guy or girl and I prefer it that way. It may not be easy and it may not be popular but I have to be myself. You prove who you are inside by your actions and your responses to others and that is how you gain not only self respect but the respect of others as well. I'm not wishy washy with my decisions either and hardly, if ever, go along with the crowd. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong but I live with my decisions. If I'm going to be damned, I'll be damned for who I am not for who others want me to be. My own life shows no de-valuation of manhood , rather the reverse. My friends value me as Salandra but they value me equally, if not more so, as Richard.:happy:

[Sharon]

Then what explains crossdressing prior to mass media? It's always been around, it was just more verboten in the past(for this, you can credit mass media).

Crossdressing may be more evident in modern society -- thanks in no small part to television, films, and the internet -- but I really doubt it is any more common because Fred Flinstone or Ed Bundy are less than perfect stereotypical men. Yes, there were even crossdressers in the Old West! After all, there must be be an innate need to dress up before you do so, or at least before you try on something feminine the second time(the first time could just be curiousity).

[Marla S]

I don't know how much it effects CDing, but "spreading women's wings" limiting "men's area" is porbably true.
But that's not the fault of women, it's the fault of men themselves.
If men miss to spread their wings, miss to learn to find other fields of identity, it's their fault.
A housewife (by choice) doesn't laugh about a business women, but a business men laughs about a houseman. Men making men small, that's the problem and typicial masculine.
Are men needed anyway ? At least as long as there is a need for mankind. even men have potential, they just have to learn to unfold it by leaving restrictive men's stereotypes.
Of course it is more easy to freeze sperms than to give birth in vitro, but the latter might become possible sometime too. A world anybody would want ?

[JoAnnDallas]

With successful clone of animals, human cloning should be a snap. Thus a women really does need a man, she can clone herself and anyone else she wishes.

[Teresa Amina]

With successful clone of animals, human cloning should be a snap. Thus a women really does need a man, she can clone herself and anyone else she wishes.

Of course with all the eggs in storage also men could be the ones to be seizing the advantage in this "clone war" to eliminate the need for women :D
Getting paranoid aren't you?
As far as I'm concerned the belittlement of men in the media is irrelevant. Being a woman just seems appealing, so we dress to achieve a sense of that "being"

[Kelsy]

I really think none of this matters. I have always believed that we should all be as equals. There are some who will advocate equallity but in reality it is supremacy that they desire. I am no less a man if I dress in women's clothes and I don't much care if someone else thinks so! If men are such bumbling Idiots the why do so many women try to take the roles of men. Far to much weight is given to the mass media. Personally I watch very little tv and find my inspiration from people of like mind. The very reason I love this forum!!


Jennifer:happy:

[Robertacd]

I am not the only guy, who has noticed this PROGRESSIVE WAR against masculinity, and fatherhood, but, FEW EVER ADDRESS IT.

Nope Rush Limbaugh talks about this all the time.

Crossdressers have been around through out history it's not just something that came along recently.

I believe this "war against masculinity" is yet another conservatard conspiracy fantasy like the "war against Christmas" or the "war against marriage".

[Maureen Henley]

"IF, our society, and hollywood, and advertising, had been still highly respecting men, and fatherhood, and the male energy, as in the past, I think things would be at least, a little different, psychologically, on cd's, too, since many of us, just don't like our male side. Some do. Thanks for letting me comment."

This sounds to me like a lot more than just an inquiry into a possible motive for crosdressing. It sounds more like a rant against equality of gender. Just remember that that same male energy showed that it was okay for men to use force on their wives, treat them as property, and control their lives. We decry the way women were treated by the Taliban, but you still long for the "good old days" when men ruled, and that was that. If that's masculinity, I'll have no part of it!

[marie354]

A hundred years from now... Who will care?

[Country girl]

listen, gurls, first I am definately a GG and love being one. I like a man to be the man, and it doesn't matter if he is wearing a dress, I still want my man, and I love being a "girly" girl. I have to disagree with what you are saying. Funny NOT one of you mentioned I Love Lucy, where the women were portryed as the idiots and lessor sex. I don't want to be alone and I sure as hell don't want to be superior. As my SO Jennifer has said, equality is all most people want. In the begining when womens lib started, all we were asking for was equality. I think the majority of women not only want, but need a man, just like the majority of men need a woman. We compliment each other. That is how God designed us to be. You will always have those few who think they are better than the opposite sex. If you look deep enough, you will usually find someone who is very insecure within themselves and is trying to hide it by being a "bully" or a "bitch". But to say that the media is trying to take away your "manhhod" by portraying you as a bumbling idiot, well hell I say only YOU can take away your manhood. My :2c: . BTW I think y'all are a great group of gurls and I love this forum so don't crucify me for my answer. :hugs: CG gg

[Sasha Anne Meadows]

Wouldn't be wonderful if we could live in a totally female would?

[Alice Torn]

In the Good Book, there are a number of places, where, it says, that in the next realm, life, or spiritual world, humans will no longer be marrying, and have no sex differences!

[Alice Torn]

I don't think that all the stuff Hollywood, has ever put out, other than the film, The Ten Commandments, and some other of that type, have caused me to cd. No, I don't fully know why. But, it has not helped manhood, to be BOMBARDED, for decades, with negative light on the male energy. The male energy has been branded as dumb, and socially inept, ot else violent, and predatory. Personally, I wish males would come with far less testosterone, and aggressiveness, but, lately, we have been seen the female energy, acting more like the male energy, for a while. Like some of you have said, we have no control over anyone but ourselves, and make our own decisions, based on our own worlds, not the media, or Hollywood.

[Kathleen Ann Trees]

I believe there is substantial evidence of a consious effort to "feminize" or knock down the male dominance. It's a way of getting society to accept the gay culture, which is supported by the "hollywood crowd".

To me the argument is whether that's a good thing or not. As a crossdresser, I'd put forth it is a positive force for change. I don't want the pendulum to swing too far to the left, though. I agree with Country Girl GG, there is a synergy to the male-female relationship. I'm VERY lucky to have that in my life!

Kathleen

[Tasha Meredith]

Since when is this a competition between men and women? I'm more of an equality gurl.

[Gunda]

Hi All,
Yes, there are plenty of instances of men being portrayed in the worst possible light in the media. I'll leave it for others to decide whether traditional masculinity is being lambasted more now than before.
However, I think it is important to remember that the images and impressions we get from TV are not an especially accurate reflection of real life. You can see these images and buy into the idea that men actually resemble the stereotype-laden TV caricatures or you can remember that so much of this is just entertainment. I know that simplistic or negative images of men in the media don't reflect me or most other real-life men I know.

As for Married With Children, sure Al Bundy is a simpleton but that is part of the character's charm. At the end of every episode it is clear that, for all his faults, Al Bundy loves his equally flawed wife and children and stands by his friends - an "everyman" that you.....dare I say it.....come to sympathize with. The character of Peg Bundy doesn't leave women smelling like roses either - she is materialistic, pampered, and irresponsible. I think that show gleefully skewered everyone - male,female, rich, poor, young, old - which made it so fun.



Best,
Gunda

[RobertaFermina]

The sad undercurrent is that so many men and women *are* insecure and uncertain in themselves enough to be influenced by media characterizations, etc.


:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Marianna Julianna]

The whole point of fiction is that it is just that, fiction, that goes for adverts too. Anyone who takes anything like that seriously is falling into the trap that the producers, advertisers etc are setting. It's not real on there, you can't even trust documentaries all the time, I often come across things that I know are fiction represented as fact. Not always on purpose, people are sloppy (I include myself in that) in taking other peoples word for things. I try to question everything. Talking just about the adverts, in the ad world everyone has big houses, often new cars which somehow always are seen driving along traffic free roads and of course go off to holiday camps or lovely resorts where there are hardly any other people! I could go on, but I'll not. Just remember, the only thing you can trust to be real is what happens to you.

[Kathleen Ann Trees]

I agree the characterizations we see in the media are all fiction, and we shouldn't let it affect who we are, but don't they end up affecting our culture? I see it all as a form of art and in some art, you can see the reflections of the day. It does change us. And, again, I think the "sexualization" of our culture today is making the path a little wider for the crossdresser.

Just one gurl's opinion.
Kathleen

[Rachaelb64]

Mmmmm........... I smell something a bit like cow dung.

If you pull your graze away from the psuedo-world of hollywood and look at the real one you will find that the vast majority of woman around the world have little or no rights at all. Even in our own 'progressive' societies, woman are still discrimated against, for being pregent or having to look after children, the majority work part-time in low paid jobs, and woman's wages do not match their male counter-parts.

Men still control the world, the fashion world, politics, the miltary and the media are all controlled by men.

Its all just Bread and Circus for woman's rights and low level male plebs like me.

Fatherhood is something you work at all your life, and a good father puts their children before themselves always.

There are good father and there are bad fathers like there are good mothers and bad mothers. You chose which one you are not society.

And of course if you don't like something you can always get of your backside and do something about it.

Also Crossdressing has run through male dominated history, just look at Nero.

And thats my rant for the week! :2c:

[Alice Torn]

Rachel, This has bee true, and in too mant cases, egonanic men, have, and still do think they own women. But, the times, they are a changin! I have heard on radio, that about 60% of college and university students and gras, now, are females. I am 52, a bachelor, and know a lot of singles, as I go to singles dances, and am on singles dating ads. Single women, that I know, are mosltly homeowners, (partly due to divorce settlements), and have careers. A large persentage of single men I know, don't own homes, and have lower paying jobs, some, living in their vehicles. Plus, there is a lady, who has written books, has been on the radio, who says, that the average incomes of men, and women, are much closer, than the biased media, and feminists say! From everything I have noticed, it is pretty much even, except for the young single moms. And even them, it is very hard for a man, to get public housing, and much easier for a woman to get it. I lived in my vehicle, for a while, because I could not be accepted for government help. I have a disability, that will remain secret here. Times are changing, for good, and not so good. It is always a mixture, of that.

[Rachaelb64]

Lucille, like you said say times are a changin'

Whether you see this as a good thing depends, but the major fact is outside our western societies women are doing badly and are they are not doing so well in our society in some places.

A report has just come out here in Britain today, which states that women with children under 11 are the most discriminated group in Britain's workforce, worst then Black male and disable people

As for equal rights, I'm all for it, you do the same job as you get paid the same what ever your gender, colour, creed, religion, sexual orientation or disability.

As for male knuckleheads I could take down my local pub and show the knuckleheads, the smooth talkers and the macho men. Our society and History is full of them

And lets face as a gender as a whole we have been and still are getting away with a lot...........

As gender we are not going away, who else would the women have to moan at about not putting that selve up they ask us do 6 weeks ago :happy:

[Maggie Kay]

Has anyone seen the state of our teenage and early twenties males? My 20 year old daughter finds that the majority are really socially retarded and often not even able to have a conversation with women. Studies have shown that male children have been systematically put down in schools by teachers following the feminist movement. The current college age generation is female dominated. Males are not going to college as much. The college population is 60% female and the college males are not performing to the levels we used to perform at.

This is a serious change in attitude towards males. I feel it and have the attitude that men are considered suspect for bad behavior from the start now. I feel that I must be mindful to women that I am male and apologize when I act too male. Is this bad? I suppose that it isn't the best for our survival but since I cannot relate to men now, I just don't mind. I do care that my daughter has real problems finding a decent mate. We have heard many girls are in that situation.

[Rachaelb64]

Btw I forgot, to yes I've been on the recieving end of society, done a bit of sofa surfing and lived in a single room bedsit till I got a place with my local coucil housing assoc.

Like you I've dated woman who own their homes, and others who are renting and dont see a penny from their ex's.

As for my male friends its a mixure of owners and renters.

The educational oppertunities for women have increase in the last 30years and in that same period heavy industry, which employed mostly male has decreased.

Take me when I lefted school in the early 80's I was suppose to get an apprenticship in one of the enginering plants, which were all over my city at the time no thought of university. The country went brust the factories closed and ended up spending years jobing as a labour on building sites or doing dead end jobs. I had no other plan when I was young than to get an apprenticship, it was taken away my path was gone and like most of my generation ended up banging my head against brick walls. Being 17 and your on the scrap heap is hard, is it no wonder that this male generation lost its way?

Forget the media it's our respective government ecomonic policies that caused the downfall of the male ego, the media is just kicking while its down.

Thats two rants now! :2c: I need a sit down :happy:

[noname]

More women do graduate from college. Gee.. that wouldn't have anything to do with the "women only" scholorships :0 Shocking I know. Women have more lifestyle choices than men do. Typically, after HS most young men are told to GET TO WORK! Parents often expect less from their oh so fragile daughter and let her stay at home and go to school, often footing the bill. With the rising cost of college it should be no surprise that assitance only available to women could help in paving this road. Many many factors.

[Satrana]

It is undoubtedly true that since the 1980s there have been numerous shows where men have been displayed as irresponsible idiots while women are displayed as reliable and intelligent. TV does refelct public sentiment, if it did not then the show would bomb and be cancelled since it would not connect with the audience. Clearly there are many people who respond to this characterization.

The attack on the male image is very much a reflection of the rise of the feminist movement and its assualt on all things masculine. We have reached a point where men do feel devalued and feel a need to apologize for being male. This is a sad state of affairs which does not help society function any better.

Does this have any connection with crossdressing? Well since most crossdressers start as children when these gender wars are not really influencing them yet then I would say no. But demeaning the male image is not a healthy thing anymore than demeaning the female image is, it only feeds into more sexist attitudes which ultimately means less acceptance for crossdressers.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Times are changing, for good, and not so good.

This is true now, was true thousands of years ago and will be true thousands of years from now.

Accept, adjust, acknowledge.

Change IS the only constant.

Kew


PS Can I get a shout out from my peeps to acknowledge how good I've been.

[Lissa Stevens]

A fine example of this topic happened a few months ago. A family was at home when someone tried to break in. The man and kids cowered while the woman took charge and talked to the alarm company when they called to check up on the family.

[noname]

Many people here say, don't just sit there, do something! What exactly are we supposed to do? As one individual, there is only so much I can do. I can't eduacate the world, but I try to do my part. I speak up when ever something derogatory twards men is said. ie. "all men are alike" , "men are good for working on cars" , "men just like sports".

*story time*
I remember once at church I was talking with a small group of people and one lady said, "Hey I've got an idea! Why don't the ladys get together and do some scrapbooking!." The pastors wife said, "That's a great idea, sound like fun." I took the liberty to blurt out, "What? I'm not good enough?" "What do you mean?" The lady said. "I can't scrapbook book because I"m a guy???" I said. No real point, except I try to speak up when I can.


Does this have any connection with crossdressing? Well since most crossdressers start as children when these gender wars are not really influencing them yet then I would say no. But demeaning the male image is not a healthy thing anymore than demeaning the female image is, it only feeds into more sexist attitudes which ultimately means less acceptance for crossdressers.

You've got some great posts Satrana. They are always well said. But I don't believe your last statement is entirely true. True cd's have always existed. I have several theorys as to why I am the way I am, and most likely they all play a factor. But I do feel the media may be a factor for many. Demeaning men to make them appear stupid really isn't an image I wish to identify with. Everytime I'm in the store and I see some super macho guy wearing the same style jeans men have been wearing for the last 15 years, and not really caring about his appearance I can't help but think, "my word... may I never be "that" guy.".

But all that said. The only thing one could really do more is write letters. I did almost write an add for a bathroom cleaner. It had a picture of a towlet bowl and the caption at the top said, "Your husbands aim isn't as good as he thinks it is." I think that speaks for itself.

[CaptLex]

Well, I think we have enough "raw material" here for a semi-scientific poll. Why doesn't someone start a thread with a poll asking how many CDs here crossdress due to societal pressures on men and/or have been influenced by changing roles in society the past several decades? This may answer the question once and for all.

[Alice Torn]

One thing is for sure, all the bombarding America, with anti-male, ant-masculinity, dumb doofas messages, has helped cause a vast increase on depressed males, and males commit suicide successfully far more often, than females. I really think some males are afraid to really be masculine, fear females, and give in to being effeminite. Some crossdress, not all.