Yes, it's just that easy.

[Tree GG]

"...comfortably cutting them out of the picture..."

".....unbelievable freedom to dress......"

"....long before I met you, she was there...."

These are quotes from a CD.com post, an unassociated journal I read from a CD about his journey out of the closet/divorce & the third from another CD's writings. I think none indicate any remorse or regret or even concern for the wife or her feelings. IMO, they show a tendency to treat "the woman within" as the ultimate goddess and the real, breathing wife as an appendage to be removed as if it offends "her". At the very least, the wife appears to be just an incidental casualty.

Is it that easy to choose unconditional, totally at your discretion and control CDing over your life partner? For those who have split because of CDing, how soon after you were married did you realize CDing was more important than your marriage?

For those who have chosen to stay and compromise or communicate or empathize or whatever the difference was that made it work, is there resentment at the restrictions a "not fully out" lifestyle dictates?

Please treat this as an academic query - I am not trying to enflame or insult anyone, but I have just seen alot of print lately that seems to treat the unaccepting or "marginally accepting" wife as disposable. Is the choice really that easy?

[sparks]

My wife and family are everything. I might be fighting a losing battle in my marriage over the cd issue. I can't seem to stop dressing I've gone that route for her. But I remain to keep fighting for us.
CDing is a very selfish thing. It can be all consuming. Often I hate it for the impact it seems to have on my life and I continue to fight it. Somewhere there should be a happy medium that we can all find.

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

For some it is but for me I would never want to lose my wife over crossdressing, it's been a comprimise from day 1. I do feel slighted at times because I can't do some of the things I would want to do but I look at what she has given up and it brings me crashing back to reality. Crossdressing is the most selfous thing I have ever done, it is for me and only me. I hate the fact that it affects my wife negatively and that will always be a deterrant to curtail my needs. Nothing is more important overall than my family and my wife.

[Karren H]

I choose not to choose one over the other.... And though my wife is less than enthrauled about my "hobby", I love her and my family above all else!! Soooo if there's time for Karren then fine... Else I have more important thing to take care of...

Btw.. I do have time and the family and Karren are surviving.... Separate but not equal...

Karren

[Wendy me]

my SO my wife , sets above my cding always has always will .... she knows but is unsuportive , this has driven me crazy at times... yes Wendy is a important part of who i am , and my wife is also important part of who i am ....

now i do know that stopping this part of me is not going to happen... and truth be told if it ever came down to my cding or my wife ... there would be more issues to it than simply dressing ... i tell her i love yar to death... but in all honesty this is also a part of who i am .... aether shared together or done by myself .... i would not ask her nor would i expect that all these years together and every thing we have been through to make a choose to end it over something like this....

[tommi]

As I assume with many here, I thought marriage would override the desire to
crossdress. At times it most certainly does and others it drives me into the
closet.There are times when I want to be taken care of and pampered as
there are times when I want to do the pampering. My agreement is to stay
in the closet we have a young family married 14yrs I admitted the truth at
10 and it hasn't been easy for her and I do feel liable for that.
I have gone to counciling in an effort to learn other methods of dealing with
my feelings but the desire to dress always returns,maybe not to the extent of
many,I do not feel I have to go all out.
I would love to go to a support group and actually talk about these feelings
but I am afraid that may just push the desire over the edge.
I love my wife and child and do not want to loose them by doing something
of that nature.
When I feel the desire to shop I go out in drab I'll look at clothes that I like
but normally will buy something for my wife instead, lets be honest at least
she can use it. I do have a small stash out of site and will wear panties and
an occasional bra or nite gown. Sometimes I might even try on some of her
clothes that are close to my size but rarely stay in them very long and I
only wear drab or unisex clothes if out wearing femme.
Resentment Hell no, wishing for a little understanding yes.

[DeeInGeorgia]

Luckily, I vented on a post earlier.

On the way to an Engagement Encounter in 1987, we stopped at a dinner place known for it's Salad Bar. My wife got a large plate of potato skis and loaded them up with sour cream and cheese and bacon bits, etc. and it was about twice of what I could eat. When I mentioned that it had a lot of calories, my wife to be basically told me that if I ever questioned her again about her eating, she would leave me, and she was seriously considering whether to continue with our wedding plans.

She has never had any problems letting me know when I displeased her or disgust her. I on the other hand refuse to insult, or let her know if she does things I find disgusting.

She has changed physically and mentally over the years before she even knew I crossdressed that I would have found disgusting if I had met her as the way she is now when I was the age I met her.

I treat her well, letting her know every day that I love her, both in word and touch.

We remain together because I let her ride roughshod all over me and because I love her and do not believe I could ever find another person that could love me. And I believe I would not need to crossdress as much if she hadn't changed so much over the years (but that is probably just a wish on my part).

Dee (me) is just basically standing up for myself when I have failed to do so for so many years over fear.

Dee

[amanda barber]

Some won't like this, but here goes.

Yes its thats easy. Life is to short to spend it with the wrong person. Without acceptance for who you are, what are you compromising to save? a marraige for a joint tax return? a lie till the kids are 18? a roommate? a second income?

To be blunt and crude, "You didn't have breasts when we got married and I can't accept that because its not who I married" is no different than "You didn't have fat arse when we got married and I can't accept that because its not who I married" Why would either partner put up with either situation?

Lying about it is a seperate issue and a valid point, its part of trust.
No one should be trapped in their home, don't work to save a piece of paper if love, respect, acceptance and trust are not there. Why would a non-accepting wife WANT a crossdressing/TG husband? a paycheck?

Before someone writes the "you must be single" post, 17 years with one person, not allways perfect, but allways love, acceptance, respect and trust.

[melissacd]

I am definitely in Amanda's camp on this one though for a very long time I thought that I had to sacrifice everything for my partner.

I have gone through a process where I have tried everything that I can think of to deal with this internally and in the relationship. I now realize that for me cross dressing is not a selfish act, it is just an expression of who I have always been. It is not something that I can stop, it is something that I can manage.

Similarly, I have a very strong sex drive, so again while I can manage it I cannot stop that either.

Now while I love my partner dearly, I cannot stop being a cross dresser nor can I stop having a sex drive, both things which she has requested of me. At the same time, through several rounds of counselling and much discussion she has continually stuck to these two things as non-negotiable for her.

All this being said, we are in a place that is akin to flogging a dead horse. At some point you realize that no amount of anything will get you to a point where the relationship will serve either of the couples needs. At that place you have to call it quits so that each of you can get on with the life that you need to live. It is sad, it is troublesome, it is painful and it is the adult thing to do.

It is, however, not easy.

Huggs
Melissa

[racquel]

I agree with Amanda, bite the bullet if you are just starting a relationship and share with her about what you are and if she is accepting then there is no trust issues.If she refuses then move on and spare you both the pain.
If you are married and hide this then again the issue of trust is at the forefront.It's a tough one.

[heelme]

I think this is a great question. I suppose there are some folks that would readily choose their other self over their mate. I suspect that same person would be more inclind to choose self over another in various aspects of life. I make the choice almost every day. Some days I am more selfish and do what I want to do. Most days I don't and leave my desires in the drawer. If things had turned out different back when my wife and I came to head about my dressing, AND there were no compromise, I would like to think I would stick with my wife and quit dressing. Difficult to consider, but I think I could and would do it. I live with some compromise, but feel absolutely no resentment at all.

[Teresa Amina]

I have nothing but sympathy for those who find themselves having to choose between the SO and being true to themselves. Like others here I married with the thought that it was a way to not deal with my trans nature. Doesn't work. We are what we are. If my wife had not tragically died of cancer I would be in exactly the same situation as many who now have to deal with the unresolvable conflict between the two. None of it is easy.

[battybattybats]

I think the key to understanding the comments is the divorce and not the crossdressing. Everyone I know including relatives who have divorced say similar things. "Finally I can do some things for me" "At last I'm free" etc all quotes from someone who left their lying cheating alcoholic financially abusive partner but the same kinds of things have been said by people I know with fairly amicable splits.

I think its all about the discovery of freedom and the self again and also a matter of protecting the emotions of the self... No-one I know who split with their lover/partner/husband or wife and did not later get back together said much about how their former partner might be feeling for a long time

[Angie G]

Not for me I put my wife before all and anything we made 2 lifes
A boy and a girl we have been married 38 years and she is my reason for living
:hugs:
Angie

[Julie York]

The samples of dialogue you showed, illustrate someone feeling a great sense of relief AFTER the event. What about the torture they went through beforehand of being in a lousy marriage, or being genuinely TS and miserable most of their lives? Wouldn't they express the same sentiments?

If I was made miserable by someone I married then it would be very sad indeed, for whatever reason, but after the event and the pain and the hurt.....I would be relieved to get rid of them and very likely express myself in sweeping statements about the whole experience that probably wouldn't be a fair representation of the relationship.


I see your point......but I think it is biased and provocative because it's so selective and polarised. It is not a case of choosing this or that, your wife or CD.

Anyone in a REAL position of having to choose between one or the other is not being self indulgent. They are desperately suicidally transexual. Everything after that is a case of human nature and lack of compromise.

[JoAnnDallas]

TrueGG asked the questions:


"...comfortably cutting them out of the picture..."

".....unbelievable freedom to dress......"

"....long before I met you, she was there...."

I myself am still in the closet to my wife. I will probley stay there until either I pass away or she finds out. My wife has MS and for those who know what it is and how it affects a person, there is no way I would contemplate telling her I am a CDer. I have endured people staring at my wife, thinking she is drunk, because she is unsteady on her feet. I have had people get mad at me because she will get unsteady; fall, and I don’t rush right over and help her up. She knows how to fall to keep from hurting herself. I will usually make sure she is OK, but I will let her get up by herself. Something she wants to do. Besides I’m not strong enough to just pick her up by myself. I have helped her thru bouts of pain, frustration, and anger prior to her hip replacements. Even when it got so bad, she went onto happy pills. On her part she has put up with a lot of my frustrations and I even left a company I had been working for 14 years with, in order to be closer to her. I was spending a lot of time over seas. Sometimes 2-3 months at a stretch, 2-3 times a year. She lets me do just about anything I want to do, within reason. I am a pilot, model railroader, amateur radio operator, among others. I have spent a lot of time and money in theses and she has told me that if it relaxes me and pleases me, then she is pleased. I would hope that when the time comes that she finds out that I am a CDer, that she will not freak and see it as just another of my endeavors. That is it relaxes and pleases me.

Since I joined this forum and others, I have read of CDer’s being found out by their wife’s or the CDer tells them, some were OK with it, some over time were OK with it, and some worked out compromises. Others were Ok at first, but later were not OK with it, even if the CDer bent over backwards to compromise and usually end up as an ultimatum, either quit totally or get out. As we all know, we cannot totally quit. Even if the CDer did agree to quit, it will come back later and the cycle starts over. Of those that end up in divorce, I imagine that they do find some kind of relief, since they now can let it be in the open. Also after all of the incriminating remarks and actions that result from both sides of a divorce, when it is all over, relief does set in. I know I was married once before I married my current wife and it was a messy divorce. After a while relief does come about and you do feel good that all of it is finally over. I also know that one will questions themselves as to why they married that person it the first place. Also they may think back and see things that happen that they did not notice before. From reading many postings where the marriage ended, I sensed that the CDer tried to keep it together, but also tried to keep his CDing in the picture too, since it is a part of him and he cannot separate it from his self. I have also observed that when a marriage does end because the husband is a CDer, it is usually the wife that wants the divorce. Some of this is the result of lack of communications between the CDer and the wife. Sometime no matter how much they communicate, no compromise can be made. How does one tell another about what a CDer IS? I know when the time comes that I will have to explain to my wife, I will not be able to answer all her questions or squelch her fears.

[Kathleen Ann Trees]

I opened up to my wife after 11 years. That was 3 years ago. Crossdressing is really the only difficult issue we have. Well, not counting money. We have a habit of spending just more than I make. CDing is part of that.

She once told me that we probably wouldn't be married if she knew in advance. But, for better or for worse, we have stuck together. I think we have a great marriage. Using many around us as a measure, that seems to be even more true. We click together. Minor life hurdles? Sure.

To the point. Would I leave instead of dressing. No way. Do I want to stop? NO WAY! How to make this a better working compromise is constantly on my mind. We've made minor steps together, but there's a long way to go on this journey. I pray she wants to keep going with me.

Kathleen

[ubokvt]

I have just seen alot of print lately that seems to treat the unaccepting or "marginally accepting" wife as disposable. Is the choice really that easy?

It is never easy to end a relationship. There is more than enough pain to go around for everyone involved. But when one partner can no longer accept the others behavior or actions regardless of what they are, CDing, infedelity,abuse, whaever.... No mater how painful or hard, it might be the only HEALTHY thing to do for all involved

[CarmenG]

Luckily, I vented on a post earlier.

On the way to an Engagement Encounter in 1987, we stopped at a dinner place known for it's Salad Bar. My wife got a large plate of potato skis and loaded them up with sour cream and cheese and bacon bits, etc. and it was about twice of what I could eat. When I mentioned that it had a lot of calories, my wife to be basically told me that if I ever questioned her again about her eating, she would leave me, and she was seriously considering whether to continue with our wedding plans.

She has never had any problems letting me know when I displeased her or disgust her. I on the other hand refuse to insult, or let her know if she does things I find disgusting.

She has changed physically and mentally over the years before she even knew I crossdressed that I would have found disgusting if I had met her as the way she is now when I was the age I met her.

I treat her well, letting her know every day that I love her, both in word and touch.

We remain together because I let her ride roughshod all over me and because I love her and do not believe I could ever find another person that could love me. And I believe I would not need to crossdress as much if she hadn't changed so much over the years (but that is probably just a wish on my part).

Dee (me) is just basically standing up for myself when I have failed to do so for so many years over fear.

Dee


Dee, I'm afraid you have bigger problems than crossdressing......
you sound like my older brother. He got married toa rather pretty girl back then, but she was somewhat aggresive. I gave my brother my opinion but he just kinda shrugged it off. anyway to make a long story short, 35 years later, she can't stand to see me, and I have to see my brother by appoontment. He is weak minded, non-confrontive, and very passive... A WIMP IN OTHER WORDS!!!
Don't push off the blame or make excuses because you just can't get over that hump. your wife has changed much to your disgust and you still stay. People that use "THE FAMILY" as a crutch to warrant their pain and suffering are just as guilty of denying their own self worth.
Society has taken us to the edge of our own inner being and we won't take a risk......... I am just as guilty as the next but I don't use it to avoid the truth.
Hell Dee, I too can not just dress when I want but who gives a sh--......
Just be yourself, and life is not that bad. you bang your head against the wall and guess what.... LIFE GOES ON......
Hey Dee, good luck in what you deciede and forgive my ranting..... There are plenty of sisters here that will help you out.....:hugs:

[CarmenG]

I am definitely in Amanda's camp on this one though for a very long time I thought that I had to sacrifice everything for my partner.

I have gone through a process where I have tried everything that I can think of to deal with this internally and in the relationship. I now realize that for me cross dressing is not a selfish act, it is just an expression of who I have always been. It is not something that I can stop, it is something that I can manage.

Similarly, I have a very strong sex drive, so again while I can manage it I cannot stop that either.

Now while I love my partner dearly, I cannot stop being a cross dresser nor can I stop having a sex drive, both things which she has requested of me. At the same time, through several rounds of counselling and much discussion she has continually stuck to these two things as non-negotiable for her.

All this being said, we are in a place that is akin to flogging a dead horse. At some point you realize that no amount of anything will get you to a point where the relationship will serve either of the couples needs. At that place you have to call it quits so that each of you can get on with the life that you need to live. It is sad, it is troublesome, it is painful and it is the adult thing to do.

It is, however, not easy.

Huggs
Melissa


:clap: :clap:

[Kimberley]

I think it is unfair to generalize so broadly on an issue that is case by case very intimate.

First the very nature of the question implies there is a choice between dressing or not. The fact is there is no choice. To ask this question is inherantly wrong, and to be honest, one I am surprised to see on these forums.

Secondly to assume the "goddess within" is more important than a wife of family is about as arrogant as can be. If the ultimatum is to not be who you are to keep a marriage, then one has to assume the foundations of the marriage are tenuous at best. The equation of the goddess within to a wife in the context of creating a parallel is about as off the mark as anyone can get.

Is CDing more important than a marriage? Of course not. Is a wife's acceptance to be unconditional? Of course not. If the nonacceptance translates to breathing or not, is there a choice? Of course not.

Okay, that goes to the CD. The transsexual is an entirely different matter in that everything is so much more intensified. Having said that, can a TS live in a marriage? Yes. Can a marriage survive with a TS partner. Yes. Does the TS have to make concessions. Absolutely, just as the CD has to.

Look, a wife in a transgendered marriage has to make some very hard and INFORMED decisions. The transgendered partner cannot deny this. They may or may not be able to live with conditions. In the end it does come down to good communications between partners recognizing the strengths, pitfalls, emotions and feelings of each other before a decision can be made. The fact is that MOST women cannot accept let alone tolerate a CD partner. The fact remains that most will not try. So is the ultimatum fair? You tell me.

Wives should have certain rights if they are going to accept their CD partner and those rights should be adhered to by both partners, not just one. If one partner cant or doesnt adhere to them then one has to wonder how or why they were agreed to in the first place.

End of Rant.
Kimberley.

Oh and my wife will not accept that I am transgendered so I have to stay in the closet. Is it right? No. Is it wrong? No. It is trying to keep a marriage together with someone I love very much. But if it came down to it, the decision to stay or leave would be hers; not mine.

[brina_cd]

I have a VERY unsupportive wife. I got the "either THAT goes or you do" ultimatum some time ago. So, out it went.

Of course the desire is always there. Some times its
stronger than others. I muddle through. Having kids (thankfully?) limits my chances to dress. So I don't break my word. Not a happy solution, but it is one she can live with.

Needless to say, I get depressed occasionally, especially when I see accepting spouses.

[MJ]

"...comfortably cutting them out of the picture..."

".....unbelievable freedom to dress......"

"....long before I met you, she was there...."

These are quotes from a CD.com post, an unassociated journal I read from a CD about his journey out of the closet/divorce & the third from another CD's writings. I think none indicate any remorse or regret or even concern for the wife or her feelings. IMO, they show a tendency to treat "the woman within" as the ultimate goddess and the real, breathing wife as an appendage to be removed as if it offends "her". At the very least, the wife appears to be just an incidental casualty.

Is it that easy to choose unconditional, totally at your discretion and control CDing over your life partner? For those who have split because of CDing, how soon after you were married did you realize CDing was more important than your marriage?

For those who have chosen to stay and compromise or communicate or empathize or whatever the difference was that made it work, is there resentment at the restrictions a "not fully out" lifestyle dictates?

Please treat this as an academic query - I am not trying to enflame or insult anyone, but[QUOTE] I have just seen alot of print lately that seems to treat the unaccepting or "marginally accepting" wife as disposable. Is the choice really that easy

dear Tree
i hate to reply to some threads as my sisters tend to get a little better understanding were i come from . OK get inside my head , i loved my ex with all my heart and if i could go back in time i would not have done what i did and i would never have come clean.. my wife was never disposable nor my children for that matter, and had she "marginally accepted" me i would never had gone down the path i have chosen today..
and yes i know a bed of lies is a very uncomfortable place to sleep. like many of us here i chose to keep a part of my life secret and now i pay the price
from her point of view what have i done will she ever trust another man , how much damage have i done and whats yet to come. were there was love there is now hate . all because i could not tell her about this little thing called cross dressing ..

[Country girl]

Wow! so much dissention. It IS sad when a spouse cannot or will not accept their partner for who they are. It is also sad that people marry someone without being honest in the first place. BUT IMHO the vows you take when you get married don't say for better or worse if..., they DO however say 'till death us do part. Unless you had that line written out of your vows, then is becomes a question of " why would you say something you weren't prepared to uphold?" You are unhappy? Well I say you decide whether to be happy with your lot in life. Karren Hutton's wife is unaccepting, yet she seems to be able to create a balance for herslf that keeps her fairly content. Maybe everyone whose spouse is unaccepting should try to do the same. As my daddy always said, "you made your bed, now you lie in it." If you have lied to your spouse for years upon years as to who you really are, do you really have to wonder why there is a trust and acceptance issue? Just my :2c: .

[marie354]

Don't you like the part of the marriage vows that goes...
"to love, honor, cherrish, and OBEY"

[Satrana]

The thread starts with the assumption that crossdressers have to choose between their dressing and their marriage. However if you read enough life stories it is clear that it is mostly the SOs who choose between their desire not to accept their husband's crossdressing and the marriage. Usually it is the crossdresser that is trying hard to save the marriage.

So maybe the question should really be - is it really that easy for a SO to give up a marriage over her dislike for a man in a dress?

My point is there is always a flip side to every argument. At the end of the day, a marriage is two people trying to live together but ultimately each is trying to ensure their agenda, their wishes and wants takes precendence. I know a marriage is supposed to be about unselfish sacrifices and fair compromises but alas we humans are not actually built that way and we struggle to keep our selfish desires under check. Men and women are equally guilty of this. It is easy to point a finger at another but much harder to point it at ourselves.

[Sheila]

"...comfortably cutting them out of the picture..."

".....unbelievable freedom to dress......"

"....long before I met you, she was there...."


Is it that easy to choose unconditional, totally at your discretion and control CDing over your life partner?

Tree,

I really don't think that it is that easy, and I don't think many of the cdr's we have on here see it as that easy either, many of them are trying to work through cding problems within the marriage and while they wish for more acceptance within the marriage/partnership for their dressing, they try in the main to work within the acceptance levels/or not of their partners........ at the heart of these statments are selfish, couldn't care less about how our partners feel people not just as cdr's these are people and selfish ones at that , or maybe just scared lonely ones trying to put a brave face on and trying not just to fool themselves but the world.

According to the poll I did only 2.07% of cdr's who responded figured cding as a major factor in seperating........... still too high for those going through it but a lot less than I thought it would be.

:hugs: Jess

[sara_also]

I feel compelled to respond to threads like these, although i am not the great comunicator that some on this forum are.
I agree with the realization that all people, and situations are different and one must make lifes decisions based on their space and time in life.
I was with my x for 23 years. The first five years were wonderful. The second five years were ok. The last 13 years we were just living as room mates. Is this what I wanted? No, but it happened. I made the decision to accept my live as it was, and I would still be there if SHE had not decided to look for something different. Now I want to point out that I did not even know what crossdressing was at the time. So cd,ing had nothing to do with it.
My present SO and I met on the web. I was determined that any relationship I had from this point on would be based on truth, respect, and understanding.
I don't know why cd'ing reared it's head at the same time. But it did. I discussed my interest in cd.ing with my present SO befor we even met in person because I was no longer going to live with the feelings of never being able to express yourself for fear of saying or doing something wrong.
After 6 years we more in love with each other than ever. My SO accepts me for who I am, and I accept her for who she is.
So from my point of view. It does not matter what clothes you wear, or how you comb your hair.
IT'S THE LOVE YOU GIVE AND GET EVERY DAY THAT MATTERS!!!!!!

[Suzie S.]

Tree, I am my wife's man, husband, soul mate, partner, and best friend, above ALL else. I will always treat her needs and well being as first priority. She also does the same for me, bless her heart! This is why cding does fit into our lives with minimal impact. I was never faced with having to make a choice between cding or our marriage. I couldn't imagine how difficult it must be for those here who have faced that, and for those who do, I'm truly sorry.

Please dont get me wrong, it's not like cding is not an issue at times. We have worked through the rough spots and have a mutual understanding of how it impacts our relationship and have established boundaries that work well. Sure I'd like to not have any boundaries. Sure, I'd like to dress 24/7. I'd also like to be out of the house enfemme regularly. I'd also like to be a millionaire!!! :lol2: These things probably won't ever happen, and that's OK. I've reached a level of acceptance that I can deal with. It's not perfect, but Lord knows, neither am I.

I know I've said this somewhere before, but cding is NOT the most important thing in our marriage. So many other things take priority. My wonderful bride is number ONE! :happy:

[Kate Simmons]

A mature person will never consider anyone disposable Tree. They will do everything in their power to make things work. CDing can become an overwhealming entity to some and dominate their lives. The goal should be to first acknowledge it does indeed exist and not to deny it. The next thing should be to get to the point where the person controls it and not vice versa. I finally did this but was a "day late and a dollar short" as my wife left. I've told her I've changed but she is now reluctant to try again because I've disappointed her so many times in the past. She is the most important thing in the world to me and always will be. All I can do now is wait to see if she is willing. I appeal to all of my friends to communicate, compromise and do whatever you have to to prove to your SO she is the most important thing to you. Take it from someone who learned the hard way.:straightface:

[Kelsy]

"....long before I met you, she was there...."

Long before I ever took interest in females and long before my first relationships my female self was there. Of course at that early age the female/male me was less defined and was really more assimilated into my young persona , I was just me. With conditioning the two halfs of my personality were seperated and then the struggles began. It has taken 40 years to put the two back together again in any meaningful way.

I have been married and the CD aspect of myself was always repressed in the relationships but it was always present and always expressed itself privately. The fear of rejection,the fear of losing my partner, the questions of what it was about, the struggles of wondering if I was normal keep it deeply hidden behind a very male mask. My children knew only the male me and my ex s. I am still destined to walk a two track road because I will never burden my kids with the knowledge of what I do. It is a relief to have found someone who can accept me as me.
Jennifer:straightface:

[Bethany Ann]

I agree I hope I never have to choose as that would mean the end of Ms. Beth...I think there is a happy middle as Karen said. I see many gals use the moment that their wives find out as an excuse to change things to benefit their needs. They increase the frequency or depth to which they dress. Hey, I too would love to shave my legs just once in my life but I also know my wife loves to lay her head on my furry tummy and talk for hours. I recently wrote this exact thought to my wife and let her know that I will not change just because she now knows. I guess its about choices and what you want but thats easy for me to say with a wife that loves and supports me.

Beth

[Raychel]

Wow! so much dissention. It IS sad when a spouse cannot or will not accept their partner for who they are. It is also sad that people marry someone without being honest in the first place. BUT IMHO the vows you take when you get married don't say for better or worse if..., they DO however say 'till death us do part. Unless you had that line written out of your vows, then is becomes a question of " why would you say something you weren't prepared to uphold?" You are unhappy? Well I say you decide whether to be happy with your lot in life. Karren Hutton's wife is unaccepting, yet she seems to be able to create a balance for herslf that keeps her fairly content. Maybe everyone whose spouse is unaccepting should try to do the same. As my daddy always said, "you made your bed, now you lie in it." If you have lied to your spouse for years upon years as to who you really are, do you really have to wonder why there is a trust and acceptance issue? Just my :2c: .

Country Girl, You raise some very good issues. Before my wife and I got married she had found my stash of girly stuff. I was afraid that she would let my secret out of the bag so I told her they were an EX girl friends. First HUGE mistake on my part. We had been living together for a while and I should have put my faith in her and trusted her then. Although there were issues that had come up before that, So I had my doubts. After that incident and some time had passed we got married. There have been time that we both had doubts about trusting one another. But we have worked thru these times. And now we have hopefully moved on to a better time of our lives. I am totally truthful about all things with her. Even if I think it will upset her. And although sometimes she does not tell me the whole truth, I have learned to recognize this and accept what will turn out from it. I do hope that someday my wife will tell me the complete truth all the time. Even if it wil make me mad at the time. It never helps to cover things up, just to keep someone happy. My wife knows about my dressing now and accepts it. She doesn't ever want to see me dressed, But that is fine. I am not hiding anything from her, and she knows where the key to my closet is. I should have come clean with her 20 years ago.

As far as picking between my dressing, After all that we have been thru together. I would be by far my wife. If she said today that she did not want me to dress anymore. As hard as it would be for me, That is what I would do. I don't feel that will ever be an issue. For she does accept me for who I am and I accept her for who she is. And we both accept each other faults and strengths. That is what marriage is about as far as I know.

[sharon ball]

i guess i'm one of the lucky ones. married 29 yrs with a supporting wife.
when i told her the i dress she said lets see. well now she buys me make-up, clothes, jewelry, etc...
the only thing she asks is for me not to dress in front of our son.
although i think he knows i do dress.:D

[TxKimberly]

As usual, Karen Hutton stole my thunder and said pretty much exactly what I wanted to say. My wife and children come before ALL else. My job has me traveling about 80% of the time and so there is plenty of time for Kim.
You asked if putting your wife above yourself sometimes this may lead to resentment? No, wife and children first. How could I resent the wife that has accepted me for 20 years> Accepted a lot more than cross dressing by the way. Accepted my insecurities, my bad habits, my snoring, my less than ideal looks, my buying a classic car that I want but don't need, etc, etc.
Now if my wife were to give me an ultimatum and demand that I stop dressing, around her or not, yes I WOULD resent her for that. Mostly because this would make it clear that she places something above my happiness.
Kim

[Holly]

...but I have just seen alot of print lately that seems to treat the unaccepting or "marginally accepting" wife as disposable. Is the choice really that easy?I suppose it depends on your perspective. I've seen alot of print recently where the wife/SO is treating the cross dressing spouse as inferior and a perversion. What's the point in either case? To make one feel better at the expense of the other? I have said all along that in the vast majority of marital difficulties where cross dressing is involved, the root cause is not the cross dressing, it is something else.

Love, real long lasting love, is sacrificial. Country Girl GG is on the right track. When vows are made, they are NOT conditional... I will love you as long as you conform to my ideals and standards. Too many people go into a marriage expecting to get something out of it. That's the wrong expectation. Rather the idea should be that a marriage is entered into with the attitude that the one longs to complete the other and is willing to sacrifice them self to do so.

Honestly, we all do things our spouses/SO's would rather we did not do. So what? I cross dress. My wife will sequester herself away in the den and play computer games for hours on end. Would I ever demand that she give up gaming and if she didn't, leave her? Of course not. I would no sooner do that than she would demand me to give up dressing. We've been married over 39 years; known one another for over 40 years. We've raised a family together. We lost a five year old child together. We've laughed and cried together. How silly would it be to dissolve a relationship over panties and/or pixels! Wouldn't all relationships be better off if those involved spent more time worrying about what they were bringing into the relationship rather than what they were getting out of it?

[Michelle 51]

Interesting post Tree.I think we are so varied in our CDing on here that a certain post will get a response from those of like mind.A lot of post i read i disagree with it so i just go to the next one and if it interest me i'll post a reply.Like your's for example .I agree with you 100% My wife and family come first.I have 30+ year's invested and i wouldn't trade that so i could pursue a more intense form of CDing but for some they feel they have to.I.m lucky that i have a wonderfull wife .If i didn't i would probaly do thing's different but i not willing to trade her for a dress just yet.If she would just lend it to me once in a while would be nice . Justabit

[marie354]

I found the Methodist version of the vows on the 'net...

_________, wilt thou have this woman/man to be thy wedded wife/husband to live together after God's ordinance in the Holy Estate of matrimony? Wilt thou love her/him, in sickness and in health, and forsaking all others keep thee only unto her/him, so long as ye both shall live?

("I will")

(Repeat for each) I, __________, take thee ___________, to be my wife/husband, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better - for worse, for richer - for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherrish, till death do us part, and thereto I pledge thee my faith.

(Rings for one or both) In token ans pledge of the vow between us made, with this ring I thee wed; in the name of the Father, and the Son. and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

I choose this version because it was the first one I came across and know that are other variations of the basic vows based on the particular religion.

The point being... Both times I married, I took these vows very seriously. It meant that it was forever... For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health........
And both times mine went on....
... To love, honor, cherrish, and obey, for long as both of you shall live.

I would go through it all again with my current SO and feel it as a permanent pledge to her... Till death do us part.

Lawers can find loopholes in any contract no matter what.
I can agree with the reasoning such as one spouse abusing the other or their children as a valid reason, but otherwise......

[Lovely Rita]

I don't think the choice is that easy. My wife means more to me than my cding. Because of her I used to wrestle with it and stop for some time. I made a commitment for life when I married her. This is only my opinion and I can only speak for myself, but marriage is not just about self. It is about our partner and ourselves. I believe one of the most important factors to building a good marriage, to a large degree, is selflessness.

I also have read a great deal of posts where members and even moderators here have given it all up for their spouses and who consider their wives very very important.

Happily, my wife supports my cding and for that I am eternally greatful. My heart goes out to all those who are dealing with the pain and the heart ache this life style also holds.

[mskilmer]

My wife totally enjoys my dressing up and we often shop together and go out. She has helped me SO MUCH! Having said that ... I have not allowed our kids to know about it. I do not feel the need to dress en femme every day, so there's no need to "come out" to the kids. My wife and I have a fantastic, trusting and fun relationship. Works for us.

[Joy Carter]

Hun, I have kept my marriage vows sacred. And the woman I said them to has had my attention for thirty seven years. But "I"... "Myself" have suffered mentally because I could not accept myself. I bury-ed myself in my Carrier and worked extra to keep my mind off my problem. I just couldn't do it any longer so I accepted myself last July. And I have done what I always wanted to do. And that is to be the part time gurl I was meant to be. She acknowledges this part of me but does not want to know. Even refuses to read the books I bought for her. Or get into a discussion about it. Nothing can replace her in my life. I love her and she loves me. We have now reaped a benefit because by being Joy. I'm happier now in my life than I ever have been. She gets more attention from me and our family and friends noticed the change. No Hun, nothing could get in the way of our love. Just I'm lucky she didn't tell me to get out.

I just pray for all my sisters and their SO's to be at least as lucky. :hugs:

[suchacutie]

My CDing started LONG after we were married (31 years after!). Without my wife's encouragement I can't say I would have gone down this path. It is with her help that Tina is exploring all that is feminine, and as with all things in my life I could not hide if from my wife if it were to come to that. Luckily, I yet again am reminded just how wonderful a decision I made all those many years ago to propose to this wonderful woman, and I'm glad every day that she agreed!

tina

[melissacd]

I have nothing but sympathy for those who find themselves having to choose between the SO and being true to themselves. Like others here I married with the thought that it was a way to not deal with my trans nature. Doesn't work. We are what we are. If my wife had not tragically died of cancer I would be in exactly the same situation as many who now have to deal with the unresolvable conflict between the two. None of it is easy.

Teresa,

First of all I want to express my condolences on the loss of your wife.

I am one of those who has had to face the choice of me (CDing) or my marriage. Actually, it was my wife who made the choice, she decided that since she found out I was a CD that she no longer wanted to be together. I have discussed this many times, gone to counselling, tried everything possible...in the end her mind is made up and there seems to be nothing I can do to change that. It is not easy for her or for me, but it is her choice. It feels like a death, however, she still wants to remain friends, not sure how well that will work out. Time will tell.

Huggs
Melissa

[Rachaelb64]

The honest truth is my marriage was in stromy waters before my ex-wife find out my cross dressing, thats the one that sunk the boat. I still hear her saying; 'If I know you did that before we got married I would have run the other way'.

My 15yr marriage ended the night my ex found out. We stay to together another six months after that, but how many times do you throw yourself at a brick wall.

Honest truth, do I enjoy the fact I have the freedom to dress when I want now? Yes.

Would I gave that freedom up to spend everyday with my kids? In an instant.

So what do I do differnent now? I'm honest and upfront about my cding. So a future GF has two choices, accept me as I'm (and I just like I am open to compromise at this point) or they run away screaming in disgust.

As a mote point here I would just like to about five years into our marriage, I found speed in our house, it was my ex's (but that's a different story for another time). Sometimes secerts are kepted by both parties.

[mellisa's wife]

. So from my point of view. It does not matter what clothes you wear, or how you comb your hair.
IT'S THE LOVE YOU GIVE AND GET EVERY DAY THAT MATTERS!!!!!!

No matter what my husband wears, I know it is him..... to both him and myself it is clothing, end of discussion.

It is not often verbalized, but deep down inside I know he realizes how my acceptance makes our every day to day life easier. I put no limitations on his dressing - i know it is important to him. I know that under all of the girlie clothes, most of which I have purchased or sewn myself - is the man I fell in love with years ago.

Just a word of advise for those WITH accepting, supportive wives...... let them know how much they are appreciated and loved. Being told such things will only enhance the relationship. Too many things these days go unsaid.

:2c: mellisa's loving wife GG

[MsJanessa]

some couples will use any excuse to fight and argue---crossdressing, eating and drinking habits, table manners, the kids, money, etc----dealing with crossdressing, either your own or your spouse's, is generally not easy but if you have an open mind and an otherwise good relationship, then it can work. If, on the other hand, you are intolerant and selfish("its not the man I married","only perverts do that") then it probably is the deal breaker. But hey, relax, in that kind of relationship, even if you didn't crossdress, something else would be the deal breaker.

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

i have to admit it does scare me alittle, but my SO is still the same person, no matter c/d or not :happy:
to quote a saying : "the clothes maketh the man" !! as long as he still the person i met two years ago, thats what matters to me . yes sometimes i get :mad: with it, etc (all the emotions most GG's have ), but...... little by little you get there :happy:

[Tree GG]

Thank you all for the great replies. As in any group, it would be inaccurate to generalize that everyone thinks the same and I was not assuming they did. I was also not insinuating that CD's initiated all CD related divorces. I was just wondering how many CDers would/could end their marriage if CDing was the issue and was it really as easy to make their femme selves more important than their families as these comments I quoted implied.

As I read the posts, the vast majority say resoundingly - NO. :hugs: With a moderately healthy loving relationship, CDing can find it's way in somehow with or without spousal support. Any partnership requires a certain amount of self-sacrifice and compromise - IMO a healthy relationship consists of partners that are willing to give those concessions without resentment. They give just to make their partner happy. And I really am encouraged by how empathetic some of the responses were to their wives feelings as they journey into transgenderism. There are really some great husbands here.

To those that appeared to be moderately offended, I first apologize as no offense or accusations were intended and then I say in the most light hearted manner possible, "Your defensiveness amuses me." :heehee: Seems like GG's aren't the only ones to get their hackles up when they perceive a group attack. :itsok:

[Satrana]

No matter what my husband wears, I know it is him..... to both him and myself it is clothing, end of discussion.

It is not often verbalized, but deep down inside I know he realizes how my acceptance makes our every day to day life easier. I put no limitations on his dressing - i know it is important to him. I know that under all of the girlie clothes, most of which I have purchased or sewn myself - is the man I fell in love with years ago.


That is the crutch of the matter, can the SO look beyond the clothes and understand that the same man she knew before is still there, it is her perception of her partner that has changed.

I honestly feel that if an SO genuinely loves her partner then she would expend maximum effort trying to educate herself and understand the issue and tackle any feelings of intolerance inside her. When an SO makes little to no effort then I feel this in indicative of the value she places on the relationship.



When vows are made, they are NOT conditional... I will love you as long as you conform to my ideals and standards.

Straight to the heart of the issue!




I was just wondering how many CDers would/could end their marriage if CDing was the issue and was it really as easy to make their femme selves more important than their families as these comments I quoted implied.

I don't think any CD believes their feminine self to be more important than their family, rather what they seek is due recognition of their feminine side and that it receives appropriate dignity and respect as an integral part of themselves.

[noname]

These are quotes from a CD.com post, an unassociated journal I read from a CD about his journey out of the closet/divorce & the third from another CD's writings. I think none indicate any remorse or regret or even concern for the wife or her feelings. IMO, they show a tendency to treat "the woman within" as the ultimate goddess and the real, breathing wife as an appendage to be removed as if it offends "her". At the very least, the wife appears to be just an incidental casualty.

Pretty bold words. Perhaps GG's could learn to relax a bit. Something tells me most GG's wouldn't take too kindly to their husbands telling them how to dress. Clothing choices does not have to end a marrage. If a marriage fails because of someones clothing choices, it really leaves no question as to where the blame falls. I'd have to say the real casualty is the man who stands to lose everything just for being expressive, not the oppressor.

[Nikki A.]

My wife knew before she married me. Yes over the last 18+ years CDing has progressed and I am more in touch with my feelings.
I love my wife and I love my family, but if it came to one or the other with my wife I at this point in my life am not sure of my decision. She is begrudgingly accepting and there are other issues involved but we are still together.
Sometimes I feel like the Meatloaf song " I'm waiting for the end of time so that I can end my time with you"

[Glamourgirl GG]

My husband always used to tell me he could stop, that myself and our children were more important...yet he still continued to dress thinking I didn't know. That told me that he was more imporant than myself or our children. I told him the other day CD'ing is a selfish act, unless I am fully involved then many times I see no room for myself in his hobby. By fully involved, I mean that just like his male self, that I am involved in this part of his life. I admit it, and no offense to my husband who I am sure is reading this post, but I do feel very disposable when it comes to his Cd'ing.

[noname]

That told me that he was more imporant than myself or our children. I told him the other day CD'ing is a selfish act, unless I am fully involved then many times I see no room for myself in his hobby.

I must ask, if your husband required you to wear only skirts or dresses would you comply? Would you consider yourself selfish for wearing pants?

-Yeah, I know, I always ask the tough questions. But hey it's interesting to see how people justify hypocrisy.

[amanda barber]

My husband always used to tell me he could stop, that myself and our children were more important...yet he still continued to dress thinking I didn't know. That told me that he was more imporant than myself or our children. I told him the other day CD'ing is a selfish act, unless I am fully involved then many times I see no room for myself in his hobby. By fully involved, I mean that just like his male self, that I am involved in this part of his life. I admit it, and no offense to my husband who I am sure is reading this post, but I do feel very disposable when it comes to his Cd'ing.

Why did you put him in a position where he would even need to tell you he could stop and you and the children were more important? Was some sort of ultimatum issued?

[TxKimberly]

I don't doubt for a second these statements were made, but . . .
You can also find statements on chat boards about killing people, hating people, flogging yourself, etc, etc. My point being that in any sufficiently large group your going to find people that have feelings and beliefs that are not typical or the norm. (There's a certain amount of irnony in a crossdresser making that statement isn't there?) :-)
With the crossdressing community, I believe the over whelming majority of us feel and express nothing but love, admiration, and appreciation for the wives that put up with us. That there have been some that would sacrifice their marriages and their families for the sake of spending more time enfemme does not shock me, but I'm reasonably sure that attitude does nor represent most of us.
Please, please, please don't think that most of us are just chomping at the bit to get rid of our wives or children. I can't speak for anyone else, but MY life sucked before my wife, and I can't imagine the huge empty hole there would be if she were gone. And for the record, my wife does not visit this board so I'm not trying to get any brownie points with that. It really is how I feel.

Kim (AKA Poppa and Matt)



"...comfortably cutting them out of the picture..."

".....unbelievable freedom to dress......"

"....long before I met you, she was there...."

These are quotes from a CD.com post, an unassociated journal I read from a CD about his journey out of the closet/divorce & the third from another CD's writings. I think none indicate any remorse or regret or even concern for the wife or her feelings. IMO, they show a tendency to treat "the woman within" as the ultimate goddess and the real, breathing wife as an appendage to be removed as if it offends "her". At the very least, the wife appears to be just an incidental casualty.

Is it that easy to choose unconditional, totally at your discretion and control CDing over your life partner? For those who have split because of CDing, how soon after you were married did you realize CDing was more important than your marriage?

For those who have chosen to stay and compromise or communicate or empathize or whatever the difference was that made it work, is there resentment at the restrictions a "not fully out" lifestyle dictates?

Please treat this as an academic query - I am not trying to enflame or insult anyone, but I have just seen alot of print lately that seems to treat the unaccepting or "marginally accepting" wife as disposable. Is the choice really that easy?

[AmberTG]

My take on this is that the SO is the one that must decide if they can deal with the CDing, if they think it is disgusting and perverted, there is nothing that can be said or done to change that, and many women feel that way. They want a man who's a man, not a sissy or a perv. When the wife tells you she wants to sleep with a "real man" it's a pretty much done deal and no amount of compromise will be enough to satisfy the requirement. The poison is already in the mix. We, as husbands, are supposed to be accepting of their expanding waistline and PMS and never question these things, what about their level of acceptance? It takes 2 to make a marriage work and when the SO lays out an ultimatum about anything serious, including, but not limited to, CDing, how unconditional is that love?
For those GGs that are the least bit accepting of their SO's issues such as CDing, I have nothing but praise, it shows that your feelings for him are more important than his "bad habits" or life issues.
CDing, for most people is a compulsion that will never go away and may get worse with time, especially if there are gender issues mixed in. Personally, I found self-acceptance to be a better way to live than the crushing depression that comes from hiding this fundamental part of my "self".
The really difficult part about it is how to deal with the gender issues because of the inevitable effect on everyone around you. It's never easy, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. Most women run from that type of situation, I don't necessarily blame them, but it still hurts.
My wife filed her divorce paperwork with the county clerk on Monday and served me the papers yesterday. It's the only way it could go for us. She needs a "real man" in her life and I don't qualify for the position.
Amber

[Bobbie cd]

For some of us, it is not "that easy".

I loved my wife very much. I put her and our daughter ahead of a lot of things that I wanted for two decades. During the 20 years of marriage, I was able to suppress the desire to dress for the most part, limiting myself to the occaisional bout of underdressing. Our relationship had enough other problems without dragging CD issues into it.

What is truly ironic, is the fact that the suppressing of that part of my personality had the unfortunate side-affect of making me emotionally distant, which itself caused a great deal of unhappiness to my wife.
Not a particularly great trade-off, if you ask me.
It wasn't until after my wife's death and the eventual re-surgance of the desire to dress that I started to think about and try to deal with my "femme" side. During the course of that process, I finally realized what I had done, quite unconciously, in suppressing my feminine side.

So, I don't know that I really have any answers to all this, but I do know that there is no really easy or perfect way to handle the situation. We all have to figure it out best as we can in context of our own personal situation.

[Sheila]

Pretty bold words. Perhaps GG's could learn to relax a bit.

Perhaps GG's would learn to relax a bit if CDR's would learn to be honest about their lifestyle choice.

Trust me It's no fun living with liars and Decievers


Something tells me most GG's wouldn't take too kindly to their husbands telling them how to dress. Clothing choices does not have to end a marrage. If a marriage fails because of someones clothing choices, it really leaves no question as to where the blame falls.

and where would you place the blame ......... marriages rarely (NOTE THE WORD RARELY) fail just because of clothing .. usually much more is involved in the break up of a marriage than a pair of high heels and a wig or two, but it is so easy to blame the woman in the break up of a cding marriage because she was unaccepting of her husbands lifestyle choice


I'd have to say the real casualty is the man who stands to lose everything just for being expressive, not the oppressor.

The Expressive and the Oppressor being ............ just so I can be clear about who is who .....


Jess

[noname]

Trust me It's no fun living with liars and Decievers

As someone who was honest with my wife from the very start, thanks for throwing me in that boat.


and where would you place the blame ......... marriages rarely (NOTE THE WORD RARELY) fail just because of clothing .. usually much more is involved in the break up of a marriage than a pair of high heels and a wig or two, but it is so easy to blame the woman in the break up of a cding marriage because she was unaccepting of her husbands lifestyle choice

Oh... I dunno, perhaps the stories I read of women walking out because their husband isn't wearing what she thinks he should.

[KimberlyS]

Tree, for me, my wife and family are more important to me. And IMO a marriage is a joint effort where communication and compromise are very important to keep the marriage healthy.

I will additionally say that my CDing is part of me. I have been a male with many feminine attributes and characteristics as long as I can remember.

I do not think of my marriage at all as disposable. I took my marriage vows very seriously. But I will also say death is not always physically. If both spouses do not actively keep a marriage healthy it will die a slow or fast death. And a marriage can seldom be healthy with just one spouse working at keeping it healthy.

A good and healthy marriage is a grader that will go over and smooth over the bumps and ruts that come along. An unhealthy marriage is more like a bulldozer with the blade down. It will push as long as it can, but it will create a mountain in front of it that will become inpassably.

Being married is a choice. A choice to be in a relationship where it is no longer just you, but also a spouse, maybe kids, pets, in-laws, and much more.

I am lucky in that while my wife does not like my CDing, we both have compromised and continue to work on our marriage in all areas. :love:

But I can see those comments coming from someone that is currently in a dead marriage. I know I would not want to be dragging a dead body around with me all the time. :eek:

[AmberTG]

I probably should clarify my previous post a bit. My soon-to-be x-wife knew about my CDing well before we got married. At the time, she found it facinating, she likes the exotic side of things. We were married for almost 5 years before I started counciling for my depression. In that time, my depression and her overwhelming need for constant attention and sex had driven a wedge between us already, and she had been seeing another man to fulfill her needs, basicly leaving me "holding the bag". Councilling and an antidepressant has made me a much nicer person, but it's way too late now, she has no desire to work on our marriage, preferring to be with a "real man". This divorce is really more about her and her need for constant attention, and her preference for other men.
I gave her the option of filing the divorce herself and making it easy, or me filing for divorce and having it not be so easy. 4 years of constant affairs is pretty good ammo in a divorce case. BTW, she did make the comment to me that she'd rather sleep with a "real man". I am a bit passive and submissive, but a person can only deal with so much abuse and then it becomes time to do something about it.
I didn't even think about starting into transition until I knew that the marriage was unsaveable. I've thought about wanting to do it for at least 20 years, but my family was more important to me, so I kept it under control, which probably is part of the serious depression that I was dealing with. As I said before, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. There's no ideal solution to these issues.
Amber

[CandyDarling]

Wow -- I am so new here that the passion and honesty are overwhelming. My 2cents - My wife found out one month ago. We have spoken in depth and she is, so far, OK with it. No interest in seeing me or participating. She did say that she would not have married me if I had told her in advance. But she also said that she has a wonderful loving man for a partner and that the compassion and understanding that I am blessed with has alot to do with the feminie aspects of my personality. She also said that we are soo great together. I am 90% a pretty manly man and I love that aspect of myself as well. I can not stop my tg activities I have tried so - If I had told her first she would not be my wife and also likely would not have a partner as devoted as I am to her. I want to honor her by beeing the guy she married and she says she understands that to repress or stuff Candy Darling away will result in some other behavior that could be worse or depression or whatever. I chose my wife over everything but hoestly - this is who we are.

[lucytv2003]

i told my gf from the start, and she was accepting and cool. even then i finished with her on that basis, cos ultimately part of being me is liking men and being a woman with a guy. she would never get that and i never tried to put her through it. accepting types of gals are rare but sometimes even that's not enough.

[Satrana]

She did say that she would not have married me if I had told her in advance. But she also said that she has a wonderful loving man for a partner and that the compassion and understanding that I am blessed with has alot to do with the feminie aspects of my personality.

Thats the big catch 22. GGs are distraught that when their partners do not reveal their crossdressing before marriage, yet 99% admit if they had known they would have run away. They would have pre-judged their partner on the grounds of his clothing preference and would not have judged him as a person. Yet the fact that they did marry their partner shows that they loved him as a person, with a personality which already reflected his transgendered nature. Does this mean hiding the crossdressing was the right choice?

I guess it boils down to what you think is the bigger wrong, a crossdresser hiding his secret and part of his personality or a SO judging her lover over a prejudice which prevents her from respecting him as a person.

[KatrinaAshley]

This may not be true, I'm one of a few if not the only one in my boat. Through all these years I've seen or read what one sex can do to the other, trust is a rare thing indeed. So I told myself I desire nothing to do with either of them. Enjoying the clothes or the need to be one sometimes is fun, being 'with' one is another issue altogether. My other self thankfully has no interest either besides enjoying ourselves.

It is hard to grasp how someone can throw away part of who they are just to please a SO giving them a tough time with a subject that is tough enough on the individual. This doesn't imply it's always their fault, even when some members make it sound so. It's not unreasonable to expect some of you to find this difficult. We have many topics that aren't easy to deal with. Just realize some of us put our happiness first. As if it should be any other way, ya know?

[Shelly R]

Anyone in a REAL position of having to choose between one or the other is not being self indulgent. They are desperately suicidally transexual. Everything after that is a case of human nature and lack of compromise.
My first marriage of 15 years ended badly. It was my poor attempt to "run away" from the real me, I am not mearly CD, I am TG and seeking SRS. Trashing the marriage took me a long time to get around to, but eventually I had to be true to myself and my needs, by that time I was in dispair and going down slowly. My second marriage is ending soon, because she can not be married to a woman, she thought that I would turn back the clock when she wanted me to, but I am now too far along to do that to myself. Note: She and I are still trying.
As for the CD's I do not think expecting your "S.O." to accept what you are is the right way, it certainly does not work. Talking it over together is a way, if they are even slightly receptive. If they are not, then you have to decide which is more important to you, and ask your self why did you get married?
If you are still dating then tell them early on in the relationship, they deserve this at least. Telling them after marriage is a disaster in the making!

[Glamourgirl GG]

I must ask, if your husband required you to wear only skirts or dresses would you comply? Would you consider yourself selfish for wearing pants?

-Yeah, I know, I always ask the tough questions. But hey it's interesting to see how people justify hypocrisy.

Of course I would wear dresses and skirts silly. Its not a tough question at all. I am genetically female after all, which he is not and never will be. Why in the world would I put wearing pants above my husband and children? Its a simple no brainer.

So where is the hypocrisy?

[Glamourgirl GG]

Why did you put him in a position where he would even need to tell you he could stop and you and the children were more important? Was some sort of ultimatum issued?

No, it was something he told me when he came out to me and its something he has told me repeatedly when we've argued over his self-obsession. When I got fed up with being ignored I slowly just stopped showing interest in him and in that time he told me he had stopped all the while hiding things throughout the house (although not very good). The thing was--if you say you can stop then stop, don't lie about it. Lying is 10 times worse. Finally severally months ago he finally told me he realized he couldn't stop. Once he was honest, a lot of my anger disappaited. I also realized that this made dressing his priority and not our family because he couldn't stop no matter what. So that being said, I feel disposable.

[Glamourgirl GG]

I guess it boils down to what you think is the bigger wrong, a crossdresser hiding his secret and part of his personality or a SO judging her lover over a prejudice which prevents her from respecting him as a person.

Or a combination? A prejudice with people who lie. What I don't understand is those who want to hide their trueself through deceit (ie. omitting the truth with the standard don't ask don't tell) and then being surprised when their marriage ends or is in disrepair because of this betrayal. Wouldn't it be best to tell up front and if she doesn't accept it to simply move on? Why put either person through the pain (you hiding and being afraid of being caught and her feeling that strong sense of hurt and betrayal)? Just as it is our perogative to accept you or not, its your perogative to be honest and then move on if the acceptance isn't there.

[Lisa Golightly]

Swim or drown... there is really no choice at the extreme.

[JoAnnDallas]

In this day and age, I would agree with you. If today I was just getting into an relationship, I would let the GG know. But when I got married, it was something that you did not tell anyone else. Partly because you felt completly alone, ashamed, and feared that she would not accept and stop seeing you. Back then if you were a CDer, you had a mental problem and was mentally ill. No one would have wanted to get into a relationship with someone that was mentally ill. Today it is we know it is not an illness, even doctors. So many of us, including myself, keep it secret from our SO's. It has been so long that many of us fear that our SO's will not understand why we kept it a secret and think that we have betrade them. Kinda a catch 22. In my case, my SO has MS, is on disablity and I'm her caregiver. The last thing I want, is for her to end up alone because we ended up in divorce over my CDing. So I stay in the closet.

[Sheila]

I guess it boils down to what you think is the bigger wrong, a crossdresser hiding his secret and part of his personality or a SO judging her lover over a prejudice which prevents her from respecting him as a person.

to me it is down to a person lying ..... not hiding his secret... lying.... as in not teling the truth.... my partner was a practising cdr when mwe met and he chose not to reveal that....... no hiding just out and out lying........... yet still we are together..................... so where does that leave me as a prejudicer........... accepting or gullible????

[battybattybats]

But who has never lied? Is there anyone who has not told at least one 'little white lie'?

In fact, who is even honest about how many people they have slept with before the present relationship? Those statistics are quite surprising (ok I actually was but most people aren't).

Think about it, most of us CD's aren't even able to totally accept ourselves and that can take years to come to terms with. You go through life subconciously absorbing all those comments from society, the media, about how dressing is wrong, sick etc. As you realise that you to have these needs you immediatly hide them from the outset because it is something forbidden. Many of us start with the clothes of relatives or even stolen from the clotheslines of neighbours because of the crushing weight of fear. It takes tremendous courage to even buy the smallest piece of clothing from a store because of the fear of having the shameful secret exposed.

And as we have the need for love just like everyone else and most of us are heterosexual then of course the fear that love and partnership will be forever denied to us because of our secret need. We live in a world where people do so much to win affections. Teeth are straightened, hair coloured, behaviours adopted, surgeries performed all for the purpose of being able to win the affections of prospective partners.

When women's magazines and tv shows have even in the last decade had statements against crossdressing how could anyone not have got the message that 'crossdressing is wrong' 'crossdressing is sick' 'crossdressing is gay' so why wouldn't the natural instinct of anyone be to hide this? They have been hiding it through fear all there lives (or as long as the need has existed) so hiding it from loved ones is second nature and just like people will change there natural appearance or behaviour to be romantically competitive it is also natural to try to eliminate things that endanger it. Just look at shaving, almost every man does it.

But when attempts to conquer or eliminate dressing fails and the CD's very core is in inner conflict and turmoil and is struggling with all that self-hatred and shame they hide it.

What are the alternatives? Don't think for a moment that these aren't powerful forces that drive CD's to hide themselves or to lie to themselves and to others about stopping, the numbers of CD's who have taken their own lives is staggering and a wretched condemnation of humanity.

Most people, and definatly us Cd's, lie for one or both of two reasons. Fear of hurting others and fear of being hurt. It requires a lot of confidence and courage or a lot of feeling safe and secure to overcome this sort of deeply ingrained fear. When people read of relationships ending when crossdressing has become a problem how can they be expected to react?

The honest, the open crossdressers aren't 'doing the right thing'. They are flag waving heroes. As courageous and worthy as the sufferagettes, the civil rights activists who stood up to the kkk. That takes a rare quality.

A little bit of sympathy and understanding might just save a life or two.

If I can type well enough through these tears, let me say that if CDing is a 'selfish act' thyen so was women wanting a career. So was black students wanting the same quality of education as white students. Why should someone have to choose between this need and their loved ones? This isn't a hobby, but wouldn't it be selfish and wrong of a wife to tell her husband he must choose between her or the train set? If the train set was filling the house she might have enough of a point to demand that the treain set be moved to the garage at most. But this is more than a hobby and the objections to it, the responses to it are more than they would be to a hobby too.

This isn't about husbands choosing a hobby over their wives and children.

It's wives choosing social attitudes (which are indeed hard to fight) and emotions and feelings that spring from such over their children, over their husbands, over human and civil rights.

What the husband is doing is choosing lies and hiding over the risk of losing their wives, of losing their children, of losing their career, their friends, their families, their reputations.

Lets all be more aware of the heroism and courage of those who have been strong enough, daring enough to be open about these things.

[Glamourgirl GG]

But who has never lied? Is there anyone who has not told at least one 'little white lie'?

Do you seriously believe a white lie such as "I didn't cheat on my diet today" is the same as someone not telling you they are a cross dresser? That is not a white lie indeed.


This isn't about husbands choosing a hobby over their wives and children.

It's wives choosing social attitudes (which are indeed hard to fight) and emotions and feelings that spring from such over their children, over their husbands, over human and civil rights.

What the husband is doing is choosing lies and hiding over the risk of losing their wives, of losing their children, of losing their career, their friends, their families, their reputations.

Lets all be more aware of the heroism and courage of those who have been strong enough, daring enough to be open about these things.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I find it laughable that anyone would be considered a hero because they CD. My husband is not a hero because he finally told me after 7 years of marriage. Its something he should have done from the start. Am I a hero because I a mother of 4? Am I a hero because I balance work and family? Am I a hero because I left the house today wearing makeup so that no CDer's are out there criticizing me for not fulfilling my role as a female? Good grief, put me on a pedistool. Its called life.

And yes, it is a hobby for many and in another thread many have stated as such so I am not speaking out of turn. So for someone to place priority on a hobby above their family is outrageous.

[AmberTG]

Well, people do many outrageous things pretty regularly, don't they. Like charging 5 credit cards to the max and then trying to pay the bills. Like letting someone else raise the children because both people need to work to pay for the nice house, the two cars, and the day care expenses. To me, that's outrageous.
I think you completely miss the point about the true depth of feeling and fear that the average CDer has to live with daily. And your attitude does nothing to help this fear. I told both my wifes before the marriage, but in the end, it didn't save either one, and the first one used it against me with people we knew. I know many women think CDing is disgusting and repulsive, but that does not make it so.
As far as lying goes, failure to tell someone something does not constitute lying, it's hiding. Telling someone something that is not true is lying. I understand that Hiding something important from the spouse is a trust issue, but that's what the fear of exposure is also, a trust issue. If you had an abortion when you were younger, would you be willing to just tell someone you were dating? Would you be willing to tell the SO before you got married?

[claireswife-gg]

Glamourgirl,

My spouse hid the secret that she was TS out of deep shame and lifelong repression beginning in very early childhood. She hid it so well that she was suffering an emotional death from it. She didn't tell me until almost 5 years into the marriage. I certainly don't consider her a liar; she was just trying to survive.

So many people suffer for so many years so their partner can be spared pain or inconvenience. It's not a load lightly shared, and usually shared with disastrous results. If you put someone between a rock and a hard place what do you expect? Have you ever used a pressure cooker?

Knowing what it's like from talking to so many people and seeing the changes in my own spouse, I do consider an effort to spare a spouse for years selfless, not selfish. Have you ever ignored a toothache hoping and praying it would go away? It usually only gets worse over time until you have to do something about it.

Life is short, love is rare, and compassion is precious. I hope you can really talk to your partner and understand his journey to this point better. Be kind and repay 7 years of silent suffering by really working out something that you both can truly live with. Perhaps you should check out the books by Helen Boyd?

Good luck to your family. I hope you can work through this.

[MsJanessa]

My husband always used to tell me he could stop, that myself and our children were more important...yet he still continued to dress thinking I didn't know. That told me that he was more imporant than myself or our children. I told him the other day CD'ing is a selfish act, unless I am fully involved then many times I see no room for myself in his hobby. By fully involved, I mean that just like his male self, that I am involved in this part of his life. I admit it, and no offense to my husband who I am sure is reading this post, but I do feel very disposable when it comes to his Cd'ing.

I'm puzzled---why do you have to be involved in this part of his life? If you are into it---approve of it, find it is a turn on or whatever then fine---but if you really don't like his dressing, why would you want to share it? Spouses have all kinds of activities, even passions, that their SOs don't necessirily share, but don't have a problem with the spouse doing as long as he still has sufficient time for them----the fact of the matter is that your husband is a crossdresser and even if he could purge and "stop" it he would always have the repressed desire to dress with the resulting unhappiness. I'm not being critical here--many GGs don't like or even tolerate their SOs dressing so I can understand where you are coming from. But if you don't really like it why would you want to "share" it? If your husband was passionate about golf and you hated the sport would you still want to play golf with him? Like I said I don't mean to be either critical or offensive, I'm merely puzzled.

[Tina B.]

Glamourgirl,

My spouse hid the secret that she was TS out of deep shame and lifelong repression beginning in very early childhood. She hid it so well that she was suffering an emotional death from it. She didn't tell me until almost 5 years into the marriage. I certainly don't consider her a liar; she was just trying to survive.

So many people suffer for so many years so their partner can be spared pain or inconvenience. It's not a load lightly shared, and usually shared with disastrous results. If you put someone between a rock and a hard place what do you expect? Have you ever used a pressure cooker?

Knowing what it's like from talking to so many people and seeing the changes in my own spouse, I do consider an effort to spare a spouse for years selfless, not selfish. Have you ever ignored a toothache hoping and praying it would go away? It usually only gets worse over time until you have to do something about it.

Life is short, love is rare, and compassion is precious. I hope you can really talk to your partner and understand his journey to this point better. Be kind and repay 7 years of silent suffering by really working out something that you both can truly live with. Perhaps you should check out the books by Helen Boyd?

Good luck to your family. I hope you can work through this.

Very well put. Claire is a lucky lady!:iagree:
Tina B.

[marie354]

Do you seriously believe a white lie such as "I didn't cheat on my diet today" is the same as someone not telling you they are a cross dresser? That is not a white lie indeed.



I don't mean to sound harsh, but I find it laughable that anyone would be considered a hero because they CD. My husband is not a hero because he finally told me after 7 years of marriage. Its something he should have done from the start. Am I a hero because I a mother of 4? Am I a hero because I balance work and family? Am I a hero because I left the house today wearing makeup so that no CDer's are out there criticizing me for not fulfilling my role as a female? Good grief, put me on a pedistool. Its called life.

And yes, it is a hobby for many and in another thread many have stated as such so I am not speaking out of turn. So for someone to place priority on a hobby above their family is outrageous.

A lie is a lie is a lie. No matter if you concider it a "white" lie or not.

And Glamourgirl, you are sooo right! Men sometimes take what women do on a daily basis for granted or don't realize that you really do a lot more than just look pretty. Mothers should not be hero's to just their children, but their husbands too.

My one brother doesn't really have any desire to see me dressed, but understands that it's what I like to do. I wouldn't dress in front of anyone that I didn't have their approval and didn't want to see or felt that is was wrong. It just wouldn't feel right. I call that r e s p e c t.

Good points that we should all heed. Never put yourself ahead of others.

[Joy Carter]

The darkest day of my life was when my wife told me that had she known she wouldn't have married me. I've truly tried all our lives together to be the man she needed. She was told months into our life together. I don't recall if she was pregnant at the time. But god how did I know this wouldn't go away. I was twenty and had no information about who I was as a TG person. She was and is my all. But I just can't not be who I am. I can't deny myself any longer. I know it's tough on her but she's doing much better. I ask her a couple of times a week if she's happy. She always says she is. I'm not totally convinced but I'll take the answer till she volunteers something on her own.

I do want to thank you Tree and everyone who has posted here. It's enlightening to know how others think and feel.

[battybattybats]

Do you seriously believe a white lie such as "I didn't cheat on my diet today" is the same as someone not telling you they are a cross dresser? That is not a white lie indeed.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I find it laughable that anyone would be considered a hero because they CD. My husband is not a hero because he finally told me after 7 years of marriage. Its something he should have done from the start. Am I a hero because I a mother of 4? Am I a hero because I balance work and family? Am I a hero because I left the house today wearing makeup so that no CDer's are out there criticizing me for not fulfilling my role as a female? Good grief, put me on a pedistool. Its called life.

And yes, it is a hobby for many and in another thread many have stated as such so I am not speaking out of turn. So for someone to place priority on a hobby above their family is outrageous.


Umm... I'm sorry I seem to have failed to explain myself properly (probably due to the raw emotions at the time) but you seem to have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Firstly lying. I wasn't saying that failing to tell someone about crossdressing was a white lie. I was saying that virtually every single human being lies about one thing or another for various reasons. This was a lead-in to talking about the motivations for such a lie-by-omission.

As for 'white lies' exactly what makes something fit into this catagory? I never have heard a satisfactory definition. And no I don't think that "I didn't cheat on my diet today" is the same, that is a far less justifiable lie. There is no moral justification for that lie whereas their is a moral (but not ethical and I want to make that distinction) reason to lie about crossdressing. If you want to get to a similar (though more extreme version) of the same sort of lie how about a jew living in nazi germany telling even their close friends that they are not jewish. Or a japanese american during world war 2 saying that they are korean or chinese. Now those are extreme examples but the motivation is based on the same principle ie trying to avoid fear hatred bigotry and negative consequences that would result from honesty. Now that's not the same thing but it is far closer than your example.

Now as for heroics. No of course I don't think your husband is a hero for being a crossdresser. No one is a hero on account of who they are whether that be crossdresser, gay, jew, gypsy, mother, grandmother or the emporer of abyssinia. Heros are those who perform heroic deeds and being open and honest in the face of condemnation, oppression, vilification etc IS heroic. Jews who faced up to Hitler were heroic, blacks who stood up to the kkk were heroic, gays who started the pride marches were heroic, women who faught for the right to vote, worki and be educated were heroic. Therefore crossdressers who are open, honest, out and proud are heroic by that deed not by circumstance or nature. Most of the examples of heroics I gave were rare individuals while most folk in the same catagory sat back paralysed by fears, circumstances or their own feelings of powerlessness. These ordinary folk should not be condemned just because they were not the few who had the combination of rare, nay unique attributes required to be heroes.

You condemn your husband for letting his fears, and might I suggest his love for you, prevent him from being a hero. What you expect from him, honesty suddenly and without hesitation, without self-doubt despite years of societal indoctrination and discrimination is what could only be expected from the greatest of heroes. You also expect him to value ideals more than his family. I do really mean that. You expect him to be ready to risk rejection, to risk destroying his family! He probably can't even be that honest with himself! All the time he was telling you he could quit he was probably trying to convince himself of that because he thinks that is what is needed to keep you and he doesn't want to lose you. Having tried, like many of us including myself, to quit and found it impossible he then does whatever he can in his desperate state of confusion and fear to keep his family together.

As for hobby, sure it might be for some, for others that might be something they tell themselves because they don't want to face the truth that it might be much more than that. I myself thought it wasn't a big part of my life, that I could just quit. I was wrong and many (though maybe not all) who believe they can will probably find the same.

If your husband can quit, if it is just a hobby, then he would have to be the most selfish of psychopaths to choose that over his family. Would you rather believe that of him? Would it be easier for you to believe that he is such an evil being than to face the possibility that he might be a scared and confused human being who loves his family very much but finds that quiting is just impossible, denying some significant portion of himself that he has not come to terms with, does not understand?

I think that you fail to understand the collosal and unjust pressures that society has placed on your husband, perhaps pressures that you have accidentally reinforced. I think you and he should look for some quality (and above all ethical!) counselling. For him to come to terms with what dressing really means to him and to undo the fears that would lead him to feel that he has to lie to protect himself. For you to understand what he is going through and what this could mean for you.

That your husband has lied is sad and pitiful. I doubt he is as selfish as you, perhaps outrageously perhaps not, seem to think he must be.

[Glamourgirl GG]

The question asked was if it was so easy and wives being disposable, I'm not sure how my opinion of a very loud YES I FEEL DISPOSABLE can be called into question. It is how I feel and how I'm sure many of your ex-wives and possibly current wives feel.

The thing I can't comprehend is the fact that I am here to learn and to know as much as I can about CD'ing to better understand my husband, yet when I come to this board there is more "support" in how to hide it from your wife, how to avoid getting caught and those who just want to justify and validate themselves in those actions.

Personally speaking, I have been honest with my husband about everything in my life from the very beginning. I insourced a lot of trust in him and our relationship because well, isn't that what marriage is about? Some may say that is what led to him hiding it from me out of fear of losing me, but the fact is there are plenty I don't and won't share with this board about things that occured during those 7 years that oftentimes he was about to lose me because of. Over those years I spoke a great deal about trust, yet he still never chose to just come forward completely and honestly about everything. I've always told him that I feel like I don't know who he really is.

Trust is a touchy thing. We still talk about it a great deal and somehow he still struggles to trust me enough to tell me stuff despite knowing that I love him and really want to learn and understand all of this better.

One thing I think many of you miss the boat on, is you want your wives and those of us on this board to so deeply understand your point of view, your suffering, your shame, your fear...but have you ever put yourself into our heels to wonder the same about us? Don't you think we feel the same way?

I think we are all the same when it comes to feeling disposable. I feel disposable that my love and committment may not be enough in my marriage when it comes to my husband's CD'ing and him respecting me and valuing me as I do him and those who have come out to their wives or have yet to, also feel disposable that their "second self" may end their marriage in one way or another.

Now with all of that said, I remain firm in saying that I feel disposable. I do hope that we all can learn to be more positive, supportive and encouraging in a positive manner on this board and not encourage anyone down the road of deceit. (And yes, I include myself in the first part of that sentence.)

[Satrana]

so where does that leave me as a prejudicer........... accepting or gullible???? it leaves you working on your prejudices and learning to respect your partner as an individual. Which, IMO, is a great thing because it shows the value you place on your relationship.

Just remember one thing. We lie because of the prejudice. If the prejudice did not exist, we would never think of lying, there would be no need. So the prejudice comes first, and we react as all rational persons would, we hide the issue to avoid the irrational fears of others, just as you now lie to everyone around you by hiding your husband's crossdressing.

So you point out some crossdressers lie and yet you are doing the same now yourself. Do you want to be in this position? of course not, but neither do we. It is a tragedy for both the crossdresser and his SO.

The evil here is the prejudice, this is the source of all the problems. We all naturally absorb the prejuduces of society and it is a difficult thing to block out and overcome. It takes time and patience but I believe if the SO really loves their partner, they will succeed.

However, even if you do, you still face the unsavourary prospect of living in a society which is still overwhelmingly prejudiced against us. Though there are new laws in place to protect our rights, in reality society does not recognize them, we are still openly mocked because being prejudiced against the transgendered is not recognized as a bad thing unlike racism, sexism, religious bigotry etc. Apparently some prejudices are more evil than others....

Until society learns to frown upon prejudice against the transgendered, there will be no incentive for people to change as there is no public shame about expressing prejudice against us. The only ones who have an incentive are the loved ones who find out about the crossdressing. Often these people feel cheated as they have the hard work to unravel their prejudices and lie when nobody else around them has to. Understandably they would have prefered the easy route of not having to deal with this issue in the first instance.

Everyone agrees crossdressers need to come out of the closet, we need to come clean so it is unavoidable and unfortunate that some SOs are going to be caught up in this process. Hopefully future generations will not have to go through this pain.

[battybattybats]

I wasn't questioning how you feel. Feelings don't correspond to moral right and wrong or ethics or accuracy, they are irrational, often innacurate and so strong as to sometimes be impossible to ignore.

The question at issue here is a philosophical one. What is better, virtue or intended result? If virtue is important then it is good that a person be truthful and honest no matter what the consequences whereas if intended result is what is important then creating the most good for the least harm is what's important no matter what is done to get that. These are of course the extremes of each view.

If you feel the first statement is completely and always true then if you were german but had a jewish husband during WW2 and the Nazi's arrived to take your husband to the death camps it would be the right thing to do to be honest and tell the Nazis that your husband and daughter were hiding in a secret celler.

If you felt the second statement were always true then it would be the right thing to do to murder 1 person if it meant that it would prevent 2 or more people from dying.

Now the crossdressers who are open before all society feel close enough to number 1 that they are willing to risk the possibility that they may lose their loved ones, destroy their families and in some cases even risk their own lives.

The crossdressers who fall more to the second will hide and lie to protect their loved ones from the risk of harm. If there was no harm (or fear of harm) there would be no reason to lie.

Now most of us fall in between these far extremes and often drift over time, often which way we would decide an issue varies depending on context and circumstance. Most people would be willing to have Hitler assassinated if they were sure it would reduce the number of people killed in WW2 but how many would be willing to be that asassin? What if they knew that they would be killed? Or their loved ones would die if they did but it would definately save millions?

Just because you were able to feel comfortable and safe enough or were virtuous enough to be 100% honest with your husband means either that you had no secrets that were risky enough to make that choice difficult enough for you or that you felt so strongly about honesty that you were able to overcome the fear involved.

The trouble with judging your husbands actions means that either you have to assume that every person should feel the same way about honesty over risk/benefit or you have to decide the risk was not sufficient to warrent such a choice. Moral choices are personal and subjective by nature and if, for some crossdressers they feel that the gain or the risk outweighs the deceit that is their choice. I'm sure that they all do so because they feel that it is the right thing to do at the time.

Perhaps your husband does not feel safe or comfortable enough to be completely honest and as long as their is fear there (or more fear than he can overcome) that may well be the case. He, as I said before, may not feel safe enough to be honest with himself! If he can't be honest with himself how could you expect him to be honest with you? Now it's great that you are trying to learn and understand and that will be helping him feel safer in the relationship but there is probably an aweful lot of fear from the outside world (or his impressions of it) that will be encouraging him not to be fully honest too.

Now if many of us crossdressers felt that our loved ones were disposable why would we struggle to stay in those relationships as much as we do? Why would some of us hide it from our partners if we didn't fear their reaction? There is a dillemma where the desire for virtuous choices are weighed against the risks, fears and gains. Not an easy choice.

Trust is a dicey issue. It rarely means what people want it to mean. Trust isn't always where you can be sure a person will act within in a certain set of parameters (prescribed by religion, social convention or any particular philosophy), it often is where you can predict the likely response of an individual in a certain circumstance. I can always trust that gravity will draw rain down (eventually, I've seen some freaky storms) but I can't fully trust whether storm clouds will mean rain.

Perhaps you don't feel you can trust (using this context of the word) your husband as he has not given you sufficient accurate information for you to be able to feel secure in your predictions of his likely future behaviours even though you have been 100% honest with him. He might not have been able to trust you because society and his fears said you would or might behave in a certain way if he was honest.

Really I think that quality counselling could help each of you and both of you. Remember there is no one 'correct' morality (arguments about natural law ethics aside). Certainly also I feel for you when you say you feel disposable and you are right when you say some of us crossdressers have felt disposable, enough of us have been told 'if you love me enough you can/will stop' while in the same breath hearing 'if you don't stop I'll leave you (or even 'I'll kill myself'), but just because that's the way you feel, and feel strongly, doesn't make it true. I don't know the mind of your husband. No-one, not even your husband 100% knows his mind and peoples minds change so I can't say with certainty that you aren't disposable either.

Lots of us here try to understand our partners feelings, thoughts, fears etc. We all have to deal with our preconceptions and societies views about this phenomenon and no-one has a clear advantage. The Dressers have the need which conflicts with societies views which causes conflict within them and in the way they interact with the world around them but which perhaps helps, or forces, them to realise that those preconceptions and societal views might not be true. The partners don't have that, they still have to deal with the same society, the same precfonseptions but they (often but not allways practically) have the capacity to leave the relationship and get away from the issue.. something most dressers try to do but are generally unable to, indeed often suffering badly because of the attempt/s.

There are no 'good guys' or 'bad guys' (or gals) in this issue. There is only: a reality that is not fully understood (and just like anything in reality never will be fully understood, science is after all a road without end), a society that is at odds with reality and lastly people who have to come to terms with it as best they can.

I hope your husband can overcome his need to lie or perhaps his own self denial or confusion. I dearly hope that you can eventually feel safe and secure and happy in your relationship.

Just remember that it is totally impossible for any human being to fully know themselves let alone anybody else. We can only learn to recognise patterns well enough that we can make reasonable predictions. Undertsanding ourselves and others, like any field of learning, is an endless journey. Perfection isn't a static state but instead a rate of constant improvement. The more you learn the further you go but there will always be more to learn and discover.

Satrana: Very well put. This is what makes the heroic actions of open CD's and TG's so virtuous beyond even the virtue of honesty. It is the action for the greatest good as well. The courage and nobility of this act should resound with everyone.

[VickieBonne]

Everyone is different. My wife accepts me, helps me, asks me (sometimes tells me) to change, but, if she wanted me to stop, I would.

[Tree GG]

This thread has certainly gone in directions I hadn't anticipated. Thank you all, again, for your empassioned, honest and thoughtful posts.

GlamourGirl pointed out that I was originally asking if the spouse of a CD is disposable compared to the "woman within". Truthfulness (IMO lie of ommission is still a lie as it directs attention away from the CDers true self), social pressure & prejudice, shame, hiding, sharing are all significant issues of CDing that never really go away even when the CD is out. I asked my husband somewhere along the way, "If I had said this was perverse and unacceptable & you needed help, what would have happened?" I was told our marriage of 25+ yrs would've ended. Logically, that means that dressing is ultimately more important to him now than maintaining a long-term marriage with someone who isn't able to accept CDing. Also, his needs to express his transgenderism now exceeded his need to be husband (IMO full-time father goes with that).

Now I share those comments not to say my husband is a hard-ass, no compromise type. That's not the case. #1 I never mandated CDing or me - I don't want to be that kind of person - and #2 he has made compromises and difficult character changes to help me understand. I do appreciate those sacrifices and hope that I respond in kind. However, whether consciously made or not, there is an underlying tone of extortion. Strong word, but I do believe it is accurate. If it is unfair of a wife to level the ultimatum, her or me, isn't it equally unfair of the CD to say, "This is what I am NOW. Take it or leave it?" and then be willing (or forced by internal needs) to dispose of the relationship that was built and survived on anything and everthing EXCEPT CDing?

Clothes are not the issue. If it was just an issue of fashion choice, this site probably wouldn't exist. It's the underlying passions, needs, fantasies and desires that emerge when CDing progresses that weren't and aren't shared. I have read many stories from GG's (I've lived through similar times as well) where we tried to be accepting and encouraging only to be told "No, that's not enough" or we receive withdrawal and no comment or action in response. That's hard to take. We don't understand which has led me to believe (which is an about face from my original reactions) that keeping the wife out of it and remaining closeted is not always the wrong course - even if it means some lying or hiding. (I shall now be flogged for blasphemous comments :hiding: )

A CD has a very intimate, wonderous & joyful relationship with the woman within. She can do no wrong in his eyes. The wife is human and flawed - especially if she can't come to terms with CDing. Even the accepting wife is an obstacle to overcome - she requires attention from the CDer's male self which takes time away that could be spent en femme. And many times the frustrations of the CDer consume him and again the wife is left alone (emotionally/intimately). See how that can make the wife resentful?

It's all very confusing and difficult to sort and I do believe few CDers start w/ the conscious thought that they will dispose of their wife if it conflicts w/ CDing, but that doesn't stop if from happening (doesn't matter if wife or CD ends it - it still ends because of CDing). I was just trying to get a perspective from CD's to just how easy is it to make that choice (if it has to be made) and where their femme selves fit into the priorities of their daily lives. And perhaps share a GG/wife's perceived danger that sometimes we fear that we are disposable if it conflicts with their gender expression.:hugs:

[Sheila]

it leaves you working on your prejudices and learning to respect your partner as an individual. Which, IMO, is a great thing because it shows the value you place on your relationship.

Well I guess that's okay cleared things up then .. it is apparently okay to lie in a relationship just so long as we don't have prejudices ...........

Jess

[marie354]

I really enjoyed reading Tree GG's latest contributation whithin this thread as I believe that a lot of women feel this way insomuch as being "disposable."

Now as I was growing up with these feelings... i.e... Wanting to be a girl, but wanting a woman partner as well. It was a very confusing time indeed. I probably never will understand it all before I die.

I had to repress my desires for the "woman within" to be the "man that society expected" for so long it really hurt any real developement towards a "normal" life with anyone, including myself. I hated what I was. I was concidered a "queer" because of the way I wanted to dress.
By making me feel like an outcast, I'm sure that some people thought they were doing me a favor, but in reality it just made things more confusing for me. I wasn't a "queer!" Although my desires to dress like a woman was something that no one that I knew had ever heard of before so I was given a "label" that they could understand.
If I liked to dress that way, I must like men, and therefore I must be gay. Well, I've been there and experiemented and that wasn't for me either. So now I became a "queer queer".
Women didn't like me. I was a threat to their feminity, or was perverted, or "you really need a man"... I've probably heard every reason that there is over the years.
Men don't like me either. I threaten their manlyhood making them wonder about thoughts that they had when they were young about the same thing and it scares the hell out of them.
So there I was... In this nether-world.. Not either gender, but both too.
When you try to explain this to someone, it's no surprise that they can't understand. How can you make someone understand something that you don't understand yourself.

So I crossdressed as a man all my life and had to be the "tough guy" to compensate for my true self so that "she" wouldn't show through and I could keep my little secret a secret. A tough life indeed.
I find trying to write about what it felt like growing up like this a very hard thing to do.

Women were by far not disposable to me... At first, I tried very hard to supress "her" so I could be the "man" that women expected, hoping that once I had a woman by my side that "she" would "go away." NOT! I just became more & more frustrated by not being able to express myself and finding that no one would ever understand didn't help matters much at all.

Now that I have found someone that seems to understand, I am so relieved and especially now that she lets me dress anytime, even helping at times with my hair, makeup, shopping, etc., that I find myself overwhelmed at times with flooding feelings of joy and relief, it's no wonder I find myself in the "pink fog" a lot of the time. (I love the fog too!)

I'm not sure where else I can go with this, but maybe others will chime in and fill in some more details.
Sorry this has been so long, but it really is a hard thing to try to express.

[Satrana]

Logically, that means that dressing is ultimately more important to him now than maintaining a long-term marriage with someone who isn't able to accept CDing. Also, his needs to express his transgenderism now exceeded his need to be husband (IMO full-time father goes with that).
Tree, I cannot comment on your own relationship as that is unique to yourself but I do wish to comment on your statement as it has been said by other ggs. As the SO you have the external view of this dynamic situation and what, of course, is most striking to you is the crossdressing event itself. The cd has the inside view and for him the crossdressing event is just the summation of what he is feeling. So for him your statement has the wrong focus and should read - "is being accepted as a whole complete person more important than maintaining a marriage with someone who is not accepting of who he is". Same issue but looking at it from another direction.



We don't understand which has led me to believe (which is an about face from my original reactions) that keeping the wife out of it and remaining closeted is not always the wrong course - even if it means some lying or hiding. I agree. Each relationship is unique and the husband is in a much better position to decide upon the right course of action than an outsider preaching absolute honesty. We all want to believe in that perfect world of complete honesty but in reality we all lie in some shape or form every day of our lives. Anyone who claims 100% honesty is delusional.

If the husband feels certain that his wife would reject his crossdressing and this would drive a major wedge between them in an otherwise good and happy relationship, then staying in the closet can be viewed as the best course of action. Hiding the crossdressing is not always the evil deception some make it out to be but rather an act of love and self-sacrifice where the cd lessens his happiness for the sake of his SO. It is far from a perfect solution, but it may be the best solution available.

Which leads me back to a point I made earlier about that gut wrenching statement from ggs "If you had told me while we were dating I would have never married you". The fact that SOs did in fact unknowingly fall in love with and marry a cd disproves this prejudiced viewpoint. By hiding the physical apparition of his transgenderism, the SO judged the cd as a person and decided to settle down with him. So there is a strong argument to be made that the cd made the right choice at the time by hiding his cding to prevent his SO from making the wrong choice based upon irrational prejudice. I know this conflicts with honesty and trust issues but in life there is always more than one correct answer.


A CD has a very intimate, wonderous & joyful relationship with the woman within. She can do no wrong in his eyes. The wife is human and flawed - especially if she can't come to terms with CDing. Even the accepting wife is an obstacle to overcome - she requires attention from the CDer's male self which takes time away that could be spent en femme.

My own personal view is that maintaining a dual personality is harmful for the crossdresser himself and harmful for the relationship. I believe maintaining two separate male and female personas is a stage of arrested development that many cds get stuck at. I believe that the cd should complete the whole cycle and integrate both personas back into one complete whole. Otherwise as you correctly point out the wife will end up competing for time and attention with the femme persona and will often lose out. BUT a cd will not be able to achieve this if his SO is not accepting and controls and limits the crossdressing. This will ensure the dual personality and its associated problems continues.

In a perfect world a cd would have got this stuff all worked out while he was younger and before he got married. Instead the SO usually ends up with a "half finished project" which the cd does not understand himself and does not know where it is all heading, he just knows this is an integral part of him which he cannot ignore or remove but maintains it as a separate distinct mode of being which can prove destructive.

I know the above is not applicable to everyone as there are multiple reasons why someone crossdresses but I do believe it applies to the majority.

Very good thread everyone!

[battybattybats]

Satrana you made some great points there.

TreeGG, Satrana is right. When you said "Logically, that means that dressing is ultimately more important to him now than maintaining a long-term marriage with someone who isn't able to accept CDing." there is an error in your logic. When asking someone you can only keep one thing either something they would do whatever they could to keep or something that they couldn't give up no matter how hard they tried, what could the answer be? It's a false dilemma, there is only one possible answer to it. That is what your question is to most crossdressers. For your statement to be logical it first must be so that crossdressing was a choice free of all needs drives or compulsions which is clearly not the case for many.


However, whether consciously made or not, there is an underlying tone of extortion. Strong word, but I do believe it is accurate. If it is unfair of a wife to level the ultimatum, her or me, isn't it equally unfair of the CD to say, "This is what I am NOW. Take it or leave it?" and then be willing (or forced by internal needs) to dispose of the relationship that was built and survived on anything and everthing EXCEPT CDing?

This is the same false dilemma. The SO says "Do the impossible or I will end the relationship". The CD'er has no choice there but to try and fail or realise that they will fail and be honest that it is so. The Cd'er says "There is more to reality than we realise, these are facts that can't be ignored. We must take these facts and learn to live with them. I cannot change these facts." The two are not the same and, so long as there is no cure for crossdressing that is the harsh reality of it. We cannot keep people alive by sheer force of will no matter how much we love them. We cannot halt the passage of time no matter our fear of aging. It's hard to learn to cope with reality.

Even were a cure to exist it would be unethical for any SO to request or expect their partner to take it. As understandable as the emotional distress both may feel about it, this distress comes because crossdressing is not something that we grow up being ok with, being taught about or imagining will be a part of our lives - either CD's or SO's. I expect that many parents of gay children go through similar problems. I expect that many husbands of women during the rise of feminism felt similarly as the woman they always felt sure would wear skirts, cook dinner and raise children suddenly decide to get a job, an education and doesn't take his feelings into account when doing so.

Whenever anyone discovers that what they have been led to believe about the world is wrong their can be all sorts of powerful emotional reactions and journeys. It can be horrifying, confusing or even liberating.

It is not the CD who is being unfair. Both are caught up in a circumstance that is unfair. Society is unfair, life is unfair, death and disease is unfair too. People can learn to cope with unfairness and to alleviate the natural unfairness of life by our knowledge, our wisdom and our actions.

As to the relationship with the women within... umm... maybe for some that could be true but it most certainly isn't with me. I don't have a relationship with my rational side or with my emotions. Not in the way I have a relationship with a friend or a family member or my partner. I don't have a relationship with my femininity, it is a part of me and yes it is true that a lot of aspects of my personality are stronger when I am expressing my femininity.. feminine aspects of my personality that are always present. I am not a different person or do not have a different person inside my head or heart. Considering the massive limitations on acceptable expression of men in this society (compare the diversity in men and womens clothing, it's not hard to miss) and the way men are forced into steroetypical behaviours to be accepted by both men and women where anything remotely feminine (until the recent metrosexual trend emerged) was taboo then it is hardly surprising that many of us either see that the only acceptable thing is to be fully-male or as female as possible.

Myself I like being masculine, I like being feminine and I like being androgynous, all depending on the mood at the time. Surely in an enlightened world that freedom should exist for everyone?
:hugs: for everyone

[Sarahgurl371]

Ok, I can't believe I am going to reply to this thread, but once again...

I have done, and continue to do, everything in the world I can to support my wife, and get for her the things she wants in this world. I have lived for her since day one. The one thing I seem to not be able to do for her, is to kill this part of me. Apparently, it is the most important thing that I do for her. This is the most agonizing situation either of us has ever been in. It will probably end our marriage. The last thing I want.

I have gone down the road of self discovery over the past 3 years now in order to answer her questions about this all (mine as well). The answers are not what either of us had hoped I guess. I have spent much time and money to learn that for me, this isn't going away. It scares me to say that, every time. It scares me to think that the thing I have been ashamed of, felt guilty over, felt at odds with everybody I meet over, isn't going to leave me alone depsite all the emotional harm I have done to myself, and her over the years. She has known about my cding since about 6 years into our 15 year marriage. She had all the usual concerns, fears, doubts, self consciousness, that most wives feel. And as most husbands do, I told her none of it had to do with her. Its true.

I have gone from hiding in self disgust to righteous indignation over the years. As I have come to understand that some people are just born this way. I still don't like myself much, but at least am starting to believe (after 3 therapists, and thousands of dollars) that this is me, or a part of me. The same me she fell in love with all those years ago. The same me who has pluses and minuses everywhere else. The same me who for years hid the truth in order to spare her and myself the pain that I seemed to know this would cause. We went from her being Ok with, and participating in my "activities" to now her disgust of me. All the while with me practicing so much self restraint that even now I wonder why I can't just make it go away. And they say the truth shall set you free. The truth hurts, it always does.

You see, for some of us, our own self hatred and disgust is so deep that we will kill ourselves emotionally in order to feel some relief from our differentness. For some of us, we need our spouses acceptance, so that we may gain our own. For some of us, our spouses refusal to try and understand, accept, and forgive us, let alone be OK with us is so crushing that we put ourselves thru a living hell trying to be "normal" for them, even when we couldn't do it for ourselves. Only to fail, and feel even more worthless than before. Now we can add a failed marriage to the feelings of low self esteem.

So when the "freedom" statements are made, I guess you have to take them in the context of what that person's life experiences have been. I sat here reading all the repsonses and was amazed at the diversity of how we differently gendered people feel about ourselves. Some are not at all comfortable with them selves. Some are, but place the wants and needs of their families ahead of their own. Some put themselves right out front, and are called selfish for it. Except maybe, we all forget that life is a dance and we learn as we go. And that change is constant.

If you have a spouse who cd's, and are coming here looking for answers I applaud you. Whatever the result, you cared enough to at least look for them. I hope that whatever the outcome, you can resolve your hurt feelings about this all, because I don't think any of us "husbands" ever wanted to hurt you, and most of us have done everything in our power to control this, and isolate you from it. For the rest of us, I guess there is no simple answer. And none of us are the same, neither is our take on the outcome.

[Tree GG]

I understand the point you're making about being asked to give up that which cannot be given. Although a valid point, as already pointed out, the world is not black and white and I don't believe that's the only option.

IMO, when a wife finds out AFTER establishing a life with this man, and eventually responds with CDing or me, what she is really saying is that the CD experience she is having (and you CD's have to take responsibility as our guides, here) is not good, healthy or enjoyable for HER. Worst case scenario is that something deep inside her belief system makes CDing unacceptable behavior.

My husband keeps telling me this should be fun...it was suppose to be fun. He has had fun with it, but not every time. I've only experienced him comfortable with it once or twice. And I've offered to withdraw - take me out of the equation until he's more comfortable with himself (refused). At the risk of redundancy (too late :heehee: ) it's not about the clothes. It's about knowing my husband, knowing what he likes, what he doesn't like, is he happy, are we happy together (in general, of course), are his needs met, are my needs being met.....on ad nauseum. Hell, if I were in his shoes, I think it might be easier to throw my hands up & say enough, one thing at a time and you've already had your turn.

That is flippant, and an over-simplification, but you get the idea. It's hard and I believe it would be easier to deal with one's gender issues (or simple CD issues) without having to maintain a family life - especially when the two are NOT merged. So yes, it could be just that easy to choose CDing over a spouse. I'm not saying it's the best choice, just easiest. The 3rd option is perseverance, patience and compassion. From both sides, toward each other and themselves. It is by far harder to work through it together.

Is it worth it? I read some really scary horror stories and some really wonderful happily-ever-after stories. As was said, every relationship is different so we'll just have to wait and see how our's plays out. :hugs: Best of luck to us all.

[battybattybats]

I've spoken about the moral dillemas... now lets look at this ethically.

Based on such simple notions as basic human rights, individual rights and basic responsibility for these lets see where that takes us.

If I asked my partner not to talk to members of her family that I don't like or that don't like me that would seem unreasonable but I have every right to ask it because I have every right to ask anything.. but she always has the right to say no.

If I said she had to cut off contact and if she didn't the relationship would be over that would be unethical and therefore totally wrong.

If I asked her and she said no but I found that I could not stay in the relationship because of those family members (which seems a pretty sad reason to end a relationship) that is my right.

If I spoke to my partner and said that I could not stand that family member and asked her to keep said person out of contact with me that is a much better request, though she could still say no. If she did say no I could then say that I would not talk to them or interact with them whenever near them, because that is my right.

Ethically you can ask whatever you want from your partner, but you must respect their decision if they say no. You do have the right to control over yourself though and can demand whatever you want in terms of, and completely limited to, your own self. On a simple matter of rights that is the way it works. If someone wants to touch you when you don't want to be touched or in a way you don't want to be touched you can say no.. this is because of your individual rights.

So ethically to demand that someone give up dressing is just plain wrong, but to demand it never occur with your interaction is perfectly fine.

On the same lines people have an ethical responsibility to provide any information that could substantially impact the life of their partner or cause any sort of harm. In which case every crossdresser should be up front and honest, telling their partners ASAP and perhaps even becoming out and open ASAP. (emphasis on the possible, psychological factors still must be considered here). Still individuals, even in relationships, still have a right to privacy. I'll get back to that.

It is simply unethical to fail to allow or to attempt to interfere with the free exercise of an individuals basic rights unless the exercise of those rights directly contravenes your own. Logically then it is also unethical to fail to support anothers claim on a right that you yourself use or possess. If you want free speech you must then support the free speech of others. If you want civil rights for all races you then have to support civil rights for gays and all other consensual sexualities.

This means that every rational reasonable human being should accept CD's and TG's. That every rational and human being should support womens rights, black rights, gay rights and yes crossdressers rights too. If people would not want to be discriminated against they must fight all discrimination in any form. Remember the 'golden rule'...

So while some arguments could be made for hiding, equally powerful, or perhaps more powerful, arguments could be made that failure to accept a persons full individual rights including dressing is totally unacceptable and that every single rational person has a responsibility to fight for all human and civil rights!

So how does the right to privacy impact the responsibility to pass on information when there is a risk of harm? Certainly an individual can keep their desires and practices to themselves if they won't harm anyone. So only if there is a reasonable risk of harm is the responsibility greater than the right to privacy. If you carry a comunicable disease you must inform your partner, if you have a non communicable disease is there any risk that would require you to inform your partner?

Which harm is greater, the harm of the telling or the harm of the not-telling?The emotional distress that can come of a reaction to being informed about crossdressing is clearly for some harmful short-term, but isn't there an ethical responsibility to put those people through short term harm to give them the ful freedom of an informed choice? or for the long term responsibility of fighting for human/civil rights?

Do people have an ethical right to have a problem with crossdressing? Interesting question. Do people have a right to discriminate based on diabetes? Well no. What about skin colour? Nope. Gender? of course not. Race? Nah-uh. Hair colour? nope. What about people who dye their hair colour? Sorry, still no. Now people have, often strong, psychological and emotional reactions to those things but that does not make them right and it is generally understood that it is the responsibility of people to fight those feelings within themselves and change racist, sexist attitudes. I think that means that everyone has an equal responsibility to overcome any negative feelings they have towards crossdressing no matter who they are.

Remember, nature isn't ethical (or moral) and society has a long way to go to be ethical too. This means that it is normal for people to have feelings, reactions or views that are unethical.. and wrong.

Does this mean that ethically every Cd should be out and every SO should march beside them in pride marches? Sort-of. How people fight for those rights is up to them, risking their lives in a red-neck town isn't neccessary to fight for rights. Anonymous letters to the editer, how one votes, the stand we take in conversations with family and friends or at work are all opportunities for those who feel they have to hide for their own protection to do their part. I realise that even these things can be hard for some, and many SO's would find it hard also. It is ethically the right thing to do though.

Oh, and as to individual beliefs, they can inform moral decisions relating to the individual but if we acknowledge the golden rule philosophically, if we recognise basic rights and that all people are to be treated equally this rules out an individuals capacity to treat other people based on their personal views.

I'll explain. If a christian believes in equality and religious freedom then ethically they must support secular government. Why? Well they would not like it if Muslims were able to impose their beliefs or practices in the public sphere or restrict christian religious practise. So while the individual christian might believe the muslim mjight be destined to burn in hell they must still fight to support the right of that muslim to his religious freedom. Even if a persons religious or other beliefs are opposed to crossdressing for themselves this logical/philosophical principle demands they must respect the rights to it for others, even there partners!