CD Bill of Rights.

[Kimberley]

This is something I have been working on in another project. Any feedback or additions would be MOST welcome.
****************
1.) I have the right to be treated with dignity and respect at all times, as long as I behave in a manner that deserves such treatment.

2.) I have the right to expect my partner will endeavor to educate herself as fully and completely as possible about transgendered people. I have the right to expect this will be done expeditiously.

3.) I have the right to expect my privacy will be respected, that others will not be told of my being transgendered without my permission. This includes any children. If the children are to be told I have the right to expect that it will be honest and factual not emotional and negatively opinionated.

4.) I have the right to expect my partner's full participation in working through problems about my transgenderism with a fully qualified, professional counsellor, who is experienced with gender issues.

5.) I have the right to celebrate our marriage with intimacy, as a full partner in the marriage.

6.) I have the right to "explore my feminine side". I will do this without sacrificing family or financial obligations. I will do this without impinging on any negotiated boundaries.

7.) I have the right to interact with other transgendered people, but not at the expense of our marriage. I will respect the privacy of our marriage at all times.

8.) I have the right to retain a separate wardrobe including makeup, jewellery and clothing. I have the right to expect it will respected as my property, not communal. I have the right to expect it will not be tampered with, thrown out, or taken without my permission.

9.) I have the right to expect negotiated boundaries will be respected and if they are to change only after full discussion leading to acceptance by both parties.

10) I have the right to expect that any support groups my partner joins also hold these same values as part of their mandate.

[Toyah]

It seems you have the right to do anything the way you want it to be there are other people involved and the rest of the world it seems you have written most of their options out of your life.
The world has the right to its own opinions you cannot impose your will on it without any consideration of your impact on it.
BTW you have the right to be transgendered but the right to only let those you want to know about it ????? whats that about if you have the right to be, the world has the RIGHT to know.
sorry but the whole thing is a little pretentious

[Angie G]

Well Kim #11 I have the right to a lot of luck.

#12 I have the right to dream on.
# 13I have the right to hide so all 13 rights can br mine :hugs:
Angie

[Joy Carter]

Oh Kimberly, I was think along these lines this past week. I saw one for wives and TG children. This is the first one for us I've seen. I will add to this latter if that's OK with you.

[Kimberley]

Toyah, This is not what this is saying. It is saying that it is your life and you have the right to expect others ro respect that. Let me put it this way. You have a past conviction for whatever. Does that give your SO the right to bring this up at any time she feels? Bottom line here is respect for both sides of the fence, not one way or the other.

Angie, love it!!

Joy, yes I also read that and it came at a time when I was putting together a website I am putting together. I felt the SO's rights needed a counterbalance for clarification. Both will be included on the site (With Dr.Cairns permission of course). Please do feel free to add to it later.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Kali]

This is something I have been working on in another project. Any feedback or additions would be MOST welcome.
****************
1.) I have the right to be treated with dignity and respect at all times. "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." Doesn't mean it's going to happen.


2.) I have the right to expect my partner will endeavor to educate herself as fully and completely as possible about transgendered people. I have the right to expect this will be done expeditiously. You don't have the right to force your beliefs, gender, or sexual orientation on another person. They don't have to accept you. That is their right.


3.) I have the right to expect my privacy will be respected, that others will not be told of my being transgendered without my permission. This includes any children. If the children are to be told I have the right to expect that it will be honest and factual not emotional and negatively opinionated. There is no such thing as a secret. If you have children that need to be educated, you need to do it yourself.


4.) I have the right to expect my partner's full participation in working through problems about my transgenderism with a fully qualified, professional counsellor, who is experienced with gender issues. No. You don't have the right to dictate a course of contact for any other person.


5.) I have the right to celebrate our marriage with intimacy, as a man, as a full partner in the marriage. You don't have that "right" even if you are not TG./ It's a good idea, but reality is that many married couples might as well be roommates. Don't like it? Try counciling if both partners are willing; that doesn't work? Get a divorce.


6.) I have the right to "explore my feminine side". I will do this without sacrificing family or financial obligations. I will do this without impinging on any negotiated boundaries. Don't forget that family obligations includes maintaining the reputation f the family. Do you want to your scholol age kids to have to explain to their friends why Dad wears a dress?


7.) I have the right to interact with other transgendered people, but not at the expense of our marriage. I will respect the privacy of our marriage at all times. As long as it is within any bounds you may have negotiated.


8.) I have the right to retain a separate wardrobe including makeup, jewellery and clothing. I have the right to expect it will respected as my property, not communal. I have the right to expect it will not be tampered with, thrown out, or taken without my permission. This has nothing to do with being TG; either you respect the other person's space or you don't.


9.) I have the right to expect negotiated boundaries will be respected and if they are to change only after full discussion leading to acceptance by both parties. Nice thought, rarely works in reality. And this isn't TG specific either.


10) I have the right to expect that any support groups my partner joins also hold these same values as part of their mandate.

Just remember that your partner has the right not to be lied to, so if you started off at that point, you are already in the hole.

Don't mean to sound so negative, but this is a very one sided document; not a "Bill of Rights" but a "Bill of my Partner's Obligations."

[Kimberley]

Kali,
Interesting response considering everything in there are complaints that people here have registered at one time or another as situations where they have been trampled on by an SO.

[Kali]

Kali,
Interesting response considering everything in there are complaints that people here have registered at one time or another as situations where they have been trampled on by an SO.

I realize that.

But my issue is that I take a libertarian perspective. Rule 1 is "You are responsible for your own actions." With the obvious corollary "You are responsible for the consequences of your actions."

I also realize that this is a support forum for crossdressers. But "tough love" is a valid form of support. It's easy for us to say "you were wronged" and leave it at that. But the reality is that in most of these cases, the person who is posting here lied; either to themself or their partner (or very likely both). And the number one thing on most GGs list of what they want in a partner is honesty. And you know we aren't talking little white lies, we are talking about not letting the person you committed yourself to know who you really were, giving them the opportunity to make their choice with all the information.

I'm not unsympathetic to these issues, I've been there myself. But what you presented was a list of demands, not a Bill of Rights.

[marie354]

I think that much more thought has to go into this.

There are definate pros & cons about your "rules" or "rights."

Some are OK as given to us under the constituation... Rights for all.

Some need a bit of work and are not too yielding to others...
Others respect must be taken into account as well. This old world revolves on agreements and compromises to the benefit of all, not to just "one".

-nufsed-

[Sharon]

1.) I have the right to be treated with dignity and respect at all times.



I would rewrite this first item as follows: I have the right to be treated with dignity and respect at all times, as long as I behave in a manner that deserves such treatment.

Of course, everyone has a different set of standards as to what behavior is dignified and respectable.

[Kimberley]

Sharon,
Thank you. Well said and noted. I agree wholeheartedly.

Sandra
Any suggestions for improvement are welcome. That is why I put it up; looking for positive debate and improvement.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Shelly Preston]

This is something I have been working on in another project. Any feedback or additions would be MOST welcome.
****************
1.) I have the right to be treated with dignity and respect at all times, as long as I behave in a manner that deserves such treatment.
Yes you should
2.) I have the right to expect my partner will endeavor to educate herself as fully and completely as possible about transgendered people. I have the right to expect this will be done expeditiously.
No You cant impose education Its like saying everyone must read shakespear

3.) I have the right to expect my privacy will be respected, that others will not be told of my being transgendered without my permission. This includes any children. If the children are to be told I have the right to expect that it will be honest and factual not emotional and negatively opinionated.
You can hope but its never going to happen people will always talk. which is not always a bad thing

4.) I have the right to expect my partner's full participation in working through problems about my transgenderism with a fully qualified, professional counsellor, who is experienced with gender issues.
Why should you have this right ? what about your partners rights

5.) I have the right to celebrate our marriage with intimacy, as a full partner in the marriage.
You you you again - as a couple you should be doing this.
6.) I have the right to "explore my feminine side". I will do this without sacrificing family or financial obligations. I will do this without impinging on any negotiated boundaries.
At last a compromise

7.) I have the right to interact with other transgendered people, but not at the expense of our marriage. I will respect the privacy of our marriage at all times.
As an individual you can interact with anyone

8.) I have the right to retain a separate wardrobe including makeup, jewellery and clothing. I have the right to expect it will respected as my property, not communal. I have the right to expect it will not be tampered with, thrown out, or taken without my permission.
Most people would expect this regardless of the situation

9.) I have the right to expect negotiated boundaries will be respected and if they are to change only after full discussion leading to acceptance by both parties.
You are assuming there will be some sort of acceptance
10) I have the right to expect that any support groups my partner joins also hold these same values as part of their mandate.

You cant expect others to always follow your rules and it means you are restricting her/his choice of group



If you get rule one right respect and dignity at all times it will go a long way to what you want with out imposing your wishes on others

[Kimberley]

Please, PLEASE! This is NOT about ME. It is about US. US as transgendered people. We are hiuman beings first and an equal half of a relationship. We have a vested interest in maintaining that relationship without losing ourselves in the process.

Let me turn the tables here for just a second. You have just been outed by your SO whom you love very much.

She has refused to accept anything to do with your being transgendered, including learning about it, going to counselling to work through problems with acceptance or tolerance. She has talked to her girlfriends and your pastor/minister/priest; maybe even your extended family and friends. She has thrown out all your clothes makeup etc and told your children you are a pervert. She has stated that if you do anything that has to do with being transgendered including talk to others she will throw you out of your home and deny you any contact with your children. She will divorce you.

I ask, is she treating you as a human being or defining you as something other than a human being. Are the actions reasonable and justified?

ANY of this sound familiar? READ the threads! A lot of pain. Now, are the demands of the CD unreasonable? I dont think so. I think they are more than reasonable and in fact complement the other side of the coin.

Now what about the wife who tolerates it as long as she doesnt see it. Is she a full participant in the marriage? She wants open communication and honesty but only on condition. She doesnt want to know about it she just wants it to go away. She is embarassed by you and withholds all intimacy.

Any of that sound familiar? Is she contributing to the marriage or trying to control it (passive-aggressive is the psych. term if you are wondering).

Now are the rights still unreasonable?
******************
Now as the partner of a transgendered person what would she want? Here is the list. It is presented more elequently than I am capable but none the less... decide for yourself. This is of course assuming she is at least accepting which we know most women are not. This list is reasonable and makes most of the same requests/demands from the other side. A person whose vested interest is in her partner and marriage. The same as the other side where the CD's rights are focused on maintaining a relationship and family, not about ME. ME, ME.

The following is reprinted from "Counselling the Partners of Heterosexual Male Cross Dressers" by Kathleen V Cairns. It was originally published in The Canadian Journal of Human Sexuality Volume 6 Issue 4. 1997. Dr. Cairns is a part of the Department of Educational Psychology at The University of Calgary; Calgary, Alberta Canada.

1.) We have the right to know about our husband's cross dressing, preferably before marriage, but certainly when our husbands start to make cross dressing a significant factor in their lives and wish to contact support groups.

2.) We have the right to honest open communication with our husbands, with negotiation and compromise on both sides, particularly in regard to allocation of family resources and in matters pertaining to telling our children. Old patterns of selfishness and deception must cease.

3.) We have the right not to be pushed into accepting things before we have had enough time to learn about them and to begin to get used to them.

4.) We have the right to our husbands as men, the men we married, men who maintain a healthy positive masculinity while exploring their femininity and seek to neither to evade responsibilities nor appropriate our own feminine roles.

5.) We have the right to our husbands masculine bodies. Neither partner in a marriage has the right to alter body features without the full knowledge and consent of the other.

6.) We have the right to our own support groups for ourselves that promote our own growth and well-being, help us understand our husbands needs and provide tools for relationship building.

7.) We have the right to support groups for our husbands that promote their feminine development without denigrating healthy masculinity, that welcome us as full members on an equal basis with our husbands and that fully support relationship commitments.

8.) We have the right to not be mocked or demeaned by sexually explicit or otherwise offensive conversation, dress and behaviour at group meetings.

9.) We have the right not to be pressured to attend group gatherings at public locations, nightclubs or other places that pose security risks.

10) We have the right to be asked before our clothes, make-up, jewellery or other items are borrowed.

11) We have the right to our own personal time in which to get in touch with our own femininity, pursue our own personal growth, or work on creative projects.

12) We have the right to expect local, regional, and national gender organizations and conventions to fully support these rights in their programs and policies.

[noname]

You can only ask people to do things. Just as no one can impose things on you. Heck, you can leave your wife because she wore the color green. Sure, it's her right to wear green, but if she knows you'll leave her because of it, she has a choice to make.

[amanda barber]

I shredded the other one so its only fair I take on this one too.


1.) I have the right to be treated with dignity and respect at all times, as long as I behave in a manner that deserves such treatment.
Fine as it stands



2.) I have the right to expect my partner will endeavor to educate herself as fully and completely as possible about transgendered people. I have the right to expect this will be done expeditiously.
definatly, but you can't dictate what they learn from that endeavor. They may not like it.


3.) I have the right to expect my privacy will be respected, that others will not be told of my being transgendered without my permission. This includes any children. If the children are to be told I have the right to expect that it will be honest and factual not emotional and negatively opinionated.
definatly.



4.) I have the right to expect my partner's full participation in working through problems about my transgenderism with a fully qualified, professional counsellor, who is experienced with gender issues.
Support yes, participation borders on forcing their actions.



5.) I have the right to celebrate our marriage with intimacy, as a full partner in the marriage.

This sounds too much like the other bill of rights mentioning rights to the other partners body for my tastes. I don't like this one at all.



6.) I have the right to "explore my feminine side". I will do this without sacrificing family or financial obligations. I will do this without impinging on any negotiated boundaries.

OK



7.) I have the right to interact with other transgendered people, but not at the expense of our marriage. I will respect the privacy of our marriage at all times.the privacy part is good, "at the expense of our marrage leave too much room for an excuse or validation for one partner to engage in isolating controlling behavior.



8.) I have the right to retain a separate wardrobe including makeup, jewellery and clothing. I have the right to expect it will respected as my property, not communal. I have the right to expect it will not be tampered with, thrown out, or taken without my permission.
Like my other post "don't be a sneak thief" .



9.) I have the right to expect negotiated boundaries will be respected and if they are to change only after full discussion leading to acceptance by both parties.
I don't really like the negotiated boundries when dealing with acceptance idea at all.



10) I have the right to expect that any support groups my partner joins also hold these same values as part of their mandate.
No you don't. you can't controll what groups your partner seeks for support.
You can deal with it, you can like it, you can leave because of it, but you can't control it.

[Kimberley]

Thank you Amanda. Some points worth pondering.

#2 True, they may not like it or be resistant, but as a partner in a marriage or relationship, they owe it to themselves and us to at least try. Galileo said it: "You cannot force a man to learn, only find it within himself." I think that the try is the important part. If the endevour fails we can deal with that as another problem.

#4 I will give that more thought although is does go back to a similar point in raised above. An attempt at empathy can be appreciated where animosity will only breed more.

#5 Agreed. Somewhat dicey and it does need some work. The point being that withholding intimacy is not condusive to propagating the marriage; it is a passive-aggressive act if used as "punishment" for being TG. If there are valid medical reasons then one can say it is reasonable, if it is the result of being "outed" then the question of education, conselling et al arises. If those avenues have failed then it should be apparent the marriage is headed south.

#7 Hmmm. Good point. The option for inclusion of the partner would be a good approach.?

#9 Negtiated boundaries will be necessary with a tolerant partner. A fully supportive partner may or may not have a comfort zone. I think it is necessary although we would all like to go our merry way sometimes.

#10 Are expectations and control the same thing? I think the key word here is expect.

Thanks Amanda, Very much appreciated.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Sally24]

I have to agree with alot of the other girls. A bill of rights can't be a response to individual events. It should contain only basis, common, rights. Individual situations can't be addressed in a bill of rights. That requires a more specific agreement between SOs.

I do think the language and intent is very ME centered. A bill of rights considers all people involved, not just the TG one.

1,2,&3 are basically alright, could be reworded. 4,5,&10 I think are not rights but demands! 6,7,8,&9 are fair.

A bill of rights can't be writen in anger, which is what is coming thru from some of the posts in the thread. It has to be fair to all parties and respect that all people have "rights".

Sally

[Kate Simmons]

We can have all the "rights" we want but they are never guaranteed, even if the Constitution says so. Even so, I fought for those rights when I defended our country. They are worth dying for. Mutual respect, on the other hand, cannot be bought or given, it has to be earned. I feel that's what we should be working on. A declaration of rights is fine and looks good on paper but if not followed through with, is worth just about as much as the paper. People count, people matter. Respect goes a long way as does proving who you are on the inside. That's something people can work with.:happy:

[Katrina]

Ha! Yeah right. I'm going to shoot a little lower (only one):

1) I have the right to exist.

Even that is disputed in many places...

[Kimberley]

Thanks Sally. Yes it seems that 4, 5 and 10 are the common sticking points here. Thanks for the feedback. I will continue to work on them and any contributions would be considered and appreciated for sure.

I think it is more wording being the issue here than intent with these things that is why I have asked for the feedback. I want this to be right, fair and inclusive.

All too often we let ourselves get trampled in all this because we forget we are human beings and deserving of at least some consideration. Certainly we make mistakes as does everyone but we also need to realize that we have obligations to our spouses in this as well as the other way around if a relationship is to succeed.

I think it is impossible to set things right if we allow ourselves to be beaten for mistakes. We can never set things right in that scenario. If we are to make amends then it is a 2 way street with respect on both sides of the picture. I think that is what I am trying to accomplish here, the concept that yes we erred BIG TIME so now let's try to put it right and here are the ground rules for both of us.

If an understanding cant be met then we cant say we didnt try. Am I making sense? (Head isnt quite together today)

:hugs:
Kimberley.

[Wendy me]

how abought this ..... we have the right for people to respect people to the point were we don't need a bill of rights.......

[Sharon]

The following is reprinted from "Counselling the Partners of Heterosexual Male Cross Dressers" by Kathleen V Cairns. It was originally published in The Canadian Journal of Human Sexuality Volume 6 Issue 4. 1997. Dr. Cairns is a part of the Department of Educational Psychology at The University of Calgary; Calgary, Alberta Canada.

1.) We have the right to know about our husband's cross dressing, preferably before marriage, but certainly when our husbands start to make cross dressing a significant factor in their lives and wish to contact support groups.

2.) We have the right to honest open communication with our husbands, with negotiation and compromise on both sides, particularly in regard to allocation of family resources and in matters pertaining to telling our children. Old patterns of selfishness and deception must cease.

3.) We have the right not to be pushed into accepting things before we have had enough time to learn about them and to begin to get used to them.

4.) We have the right to our husbands as men, the men we married, men who maintain a healthy positive masculinity while exploring their femininity and seek to neither to evade responsibilities nor appropriate our own feminine roles.

5.) We have the right to our husbands masculine bodies. Neither partner in a marriage has the right to alter body features without the full knowledge and consent of the other.

6.) We have the right to our own support groups for ourselves that promote our own growth and well-being, help us understand our husbands needs and provide tools for relationship building.

7.) We have the right to support groups for our husbands that promote their feminine development without denigrating healthy masculinity, that welcome us as full members on an equal basis with our husbands and that fully support relationship commitments.

8.) We have the right to not be mocked or demeaned by sexually explicit or otherwise offensive conversation, dress and behaviour at group meetings.

9.) We have the right not to be pressured to attend group gatherings at public locations, nightclubs or other places that pose security risks.

10) We have the right to be asked before our clothes, make-up, jewellery or other items are borrowed.

11) We have the right to our own personal time in which to get in touch with our own femininity, pursue our own personal growth, or work on creative projects.

12) We have the right to expect local, regional, and national gender organizations and conventions to fully support these rights in their programs and policies.

The above could be added to the original ten "Bill of Rights," and stated as "A Bill of Obligations" for the croossdresser/trangendered. It could be reduced to a simple, "I have an obligation to my spouse to be completely honest and open about my needs and wants, and I have the obligation to allow her the rights to her own beliefs, fears, and needs."

[Kali]

The above could be added to the original ten "Bill of Rights," and stated as "A Bill of Obligations" for the croossdresser/trangendered. It could be reduced to a simple, "I have an obligation to my spouse to be completely honest and open about my needs and wants, and I have the obligation to allow her the rights to her own beliefs, fears, and needs."

Brilliant!

[Satrana]

Kimberley

When I read your list it did sound self-centered, the I read Kathleen Cairn's rights for the SO which was also self-centered so I can see where you got your inspiration from!

I think you need to rename this to a list of points which respects the dignity of both the cd and the SO - integrate sensible points of decency and respect into common broad themes instead of having two adversarial bills of rights which do not respect each other's points of view.

[EricaCD]

Please, PLEASE! This is NOT about ME. It is about US. US as transgendered people. [...]

Well, I emphatically do NOT claim at least two-thirds of the rights that you purport to claim on my behalf. I am always worried about lists like this in SO forums and writings, and I do not view a countering list of demands as contributing to a healthy discussion.

I am terribly sorry to hear that you had a terrible situation in your personal life. I am sorry to hear that some of your wishes (which in the circumstances may well have been reasonable) were not acceded to. Still, I don't believe that a laundry list of unilateral demands is a productive outcome.

At the very least, you should specify out the obligations that you propose to undertake in the context of the rights you claim. My guess is that I will still believe you are demanding too much - but it probably would not sound nearly so much like ME ME ME ME ME ME ME...

Erica

[Laura Jane]

Well, I emphatically do NOT claim at least two-thirds of the rights that you purport to claim on my behalf. I am always worried about lists like this in SO forums and writings, and I do not view a countering list of demands as contributing to a healthy discussion.

Agreed.

I don't claim any rights based on what clothes I put on, any more than I would claim extra rights based on what I eat, drink, smoke, read, write, draw or sleep with!

Universial sufferage/rights end of, no special pleadings or interests.

[Tamera]

Everyone has rights according to the Constitution/Bill Of Rights.

For one person to basically say "This is the way it is, take it or leave it" is WRONG. Expecially when you are in a relationship.

For the other person has rights to. And one of their rights is "I'm not going to except this so SEE YA".

Also part of these rights explained infringes on anothers "FREEDOM OF SPEECH".

Love,
Tamera

[Casey Morgan]

First, I don't think that either the TG or the SO "bill of rights" are healthy if enforced as-is. However, you're looking for comments on the TG rights, so that's what I'll give you. Being TG myself, I've also been reading this as if my SO gave me this.


1.) I have the right to be treated with dignity and respect at all times, as long as I behave in a manner that deserves such treatment.

Both partners have the right to be treated with dignity and respect. It's my understanding that those are assumed (or should be) in a marriage. I'll let this one stand.


2.) I have the right to expect my partner will endeavor to educate herself as fully and completely as possible about transgendered people. I have the right to expect this will be done expeditiously.

So, sie* expects that I will become an expert as quickly as possible? That kind of (heck, scratch "kind of") goes against the first principle, doesn't it? And while I'm becoming an expert, sie will be sleeping on the couch.


3.) I have the right to expect my privacy will be respected, that others will not be told of my being transgendered without my permission. This includes any children. If the children are to be told I have the right to expect that it will be honest and factual not emotional and negatively opinionated.

Yeah, but this goes right back to respect. But this one can stand too.


4.) I have the right to expect my partner's full participation in working through problems about my transgenderism with a fully qualified, professional counsellor, who is experienced with gender issues.

ROTFLMAO PMSL OK, since that's not supportive, this isn't a respectful right. Sie has the right to expect that I will support hir** but not that I will be there in session when sie tells me to be there. That's something we would talk about first.


5.) I have the right to celebrate our marriage with intimacy, as a full partner in the marriage.

Put out and put up? Sorry, Mr. Happy is mine, as is my love. Both are mine to give, not to be taken from me.


6.) I have the right to "explore my feminine side". I will do this without sacrificing family or financial obligations. I will do this without impinging on any negotiated boundaries.

I'm OK with this one.


7.) I have the right to interact with other transgendered people, but not at the expense of our marriage. I will respect the privacy of our marriage at all times.

This is OK too.


8.) I have the right to retain a separate wardrobe including makeup, jewellery and clothing. I have the right to expect it will respected as my property, not communal. I have the right to expect it will not be tampered with, thrown out, or taken without my permission.

This goes right back to respect in the marriage. But it's OK.


9.) I have the right to expect negotiated boundaries will be respected and if they are to change only after full discussion leading to acceptance by both parties.

Respect again. Since this says nothing about whose boundaries are being respected, I assume this holds true both ways. So this is OK too.


10) I have the right to expect that any support groups my partner joins also hold these same values as part of their mandate.

No, absolutely not. I don't like this in the SOs bill of rights either.

I don't know, I see both the TG and the SO bill of rights as pretty selfish. Some things should just be a given, or else you don't really see or respect your partner. This holds true both ways. I mean, I know emotions run pretty hot after the TG partner turns out to be somebody different than they represented themselves to be, and that anger is justified, but surely the couple can work out their own "communal" bill of rights?

Yeah, I know, I'm not married and I wouldn't put my SO in this position. But I always thought that love, respect, and reason could help a couple work through anything. It may not be easy but if it's worth it then it can be done. And that's the view I choose to keep.

*sie: gender neutral equivalent of she/he
**hir: gender neutral equivalent of her/his

[Claire I]

I have to vote with Kali and Erica. Every relationship is different. If you need a list of "rights" I do not see why it should be any different to the the rights of any person in a committed relationship; respect, trust, etc. If you cannot make your relationship work within these basic parameters, then change, or get out of the relationship.

Remember, it takes two to have a relationship.

Claire

[EricaCD]

I have to vote with Kali and Erica. Every relationship is different. If you need a list of "rights" I do not see why it should be any different to the the rights of any person in a committed relationship; respect, trust, etc. If you cannot make your relationship work within these basic parameters, then change, or get out of the relationship.

Remember, it takes two to have a relationship.

Claire

Very good point! The last sentences I was going to write in my first post (I self-edited; a rarity for me) were the following:

"By the way, you understand that our SOs can respond to our demands for a bill of rights by simply exercising their (actual, moral, legal, inalienable) right to terminate our relationship. Do we really think ultimatums are the best way to cause these rights to actually be honored?"

[serinalynn]

My wife and I are already basically in agreeement on my dressing and She knows that I will not embarass her or us while we are out in public together.

[Robin Leigh]

I don't understand how a CD Bill of Rights could be appropriate.

If the SO knows about the CDing before marriage, then the couple will usually come to an arrangement that both partners are comfortable with, no Bill of Rights required, just like any other area in their lives.

If the SO doesn't knows about the CDing until after marriage, then the CDer has forfeited a large measure of their "rights", and should be thankful for whatever level of acceptance they get, IMHO. If we want fair treatment, we have to play the game fairly ourselves. If we are deceptive & misrepresent ourselves, there ought to be some compensation for the SO.

Robin

[pocoyo]

I don't know why there are so many negative reactions to this.

As far as I can see it is a list "in progress", something that Kimberley said she was working on and would appreciate feedback on.
I'm sure the feedback she was hoping for meant constructive criticism and not the frankly rather hurtful feeling of hostility/grumpiness that I am picking up from some of the posts here.

She never said it was a "definitive list", just something she is working on.
I can't understand why people are picking it apart to have a go at :worried:

To me it seemed a rather respectful and thoughtful list.

If you don't like it, why not politely & kindly help her to re-phrase some sections, rather than be cross at the poor thing!
She was trying to help our community after all for goodness' sake, not annoy it!
Sheesh.

Perhaps some people just don't get Kimberley's delivery/aren't bothering to read her subsequent explanations.

[Lindsay]

I reckon you could replace both the SO and CD "rights" with the wisdom of Bill & Ted: "Be excellent to each other". Or the slightly longer, "you have the right to do as you damn well please and the responsibility to suffer the consequences".

Other than that, what Robin said.

[Lovely Rita]

Count my signature on this one. Great work.

[Tree GG]

Would it make it more palatable if it were a list of desires? (I'm leaving out being treated with respect because that's a given - EVERYONE deserves a certain amount of respect just 'cause they're breathing) We'll talk about amounts of respect at a later date :D

If you start changing the phrases to desire:

I desire my partner educate themselves about my interests or personal needs at a comfortable, steady pace (he can't keep score in tennis, but I don't hold that against him :rolleyes: )

I desire intimacy with my spouse

I desire freedom to explore my personality with the understanding that I will not participate in activities that violate my partner's trust, marital vows, financial responsibilities and parental committments.

None of that sounds unreasonable to me.

[Tree GG]

..... there ought to be some compensation for the SO.

Robin

Where do I file a claim?

:jumping: :moneyeyes:

[Kimberley]

Pocs,
Thank you.:hugs:

Tree,
I like your suggestions.... a lot! I agree that this would make a significant improvement. Thank you for your insight. :hugs:

As I said before, and Pocs pointed out, this is a work in progress and there should be no better place to get feedback than from our own community.

Thanks to all. Keep up the suggestions for improvement.:hugs:

Kimberley

[Brianna Lovely]

I had been thinking of a similar list, based on the various sentiments expressed on this forum. However, after reading many past posts, I realized that it didn't really matter.

So, instead, I wrote down MY feelings, and here they are.

The past can not be changed, but can be forgiven.

You have the right to be yourself.

You have an opportunity to Love and Respect your SO.

If you can not do these things, you have an obligation to get out of the relationship

[btmgrl6]

I think the others have pretty well covered it so I am just going to dummy up.

Steph

[Stephenie S]

And to all the above, I would add that you may NOT have the right to crossdress at all.

Your wife probably married a MAN. And she probably expects a to remain married to a MAN. The fact that you want to appear as a woman part or all of the time is a serious breach of HER rights.

Any arangement around your CDing within your marriage should be a negotiated setlement, NOT a demanded right.