Raising chilrden

[bi_weird]

So the Capts thread reminded me of this question that I've been contemplating for a while. If tomorrow you had a child (I'm curious as to what everyone says, even those who already have kids or don't' want any, as that's interesting perspectives also), knowing what you do now, how would you raise them with regards to gender and orientation.
So many of us are either bi, currently identify as gay, or identified as gay before we realized we needed to transition. And of course, we're all trans of some sort. It was hard for us to grow up in those boxes and have to break out, figure it out for ourselves and spend our lives fighting to get people to believe and accept it.
On the other hand, being anything other than straight and cisgendered is a great way to get beat up in school and have almost no friends. People don't understand gender issues, and in a lot of places homosexuality is really still not accepted.
Would you raise them telling them that they are straight and cisgendered, encouraging them to gender appropriate activities and asking them about crushes on the opposite sex, knowing that if they're not you might be boxing them in? Would you raise them gender neutral, so they grow up knowing all the jargon of being queer, and exploring all those ideas, even though it'd be really confusing and social stigmatizing?
I'm somewhere between those two extremes, where I couldn't bring myself to ignore queer issues until the kid was grown, but I still want them to grow up being reasonably normal. I just don't know where I'd decide it was okay.

[Xaff]

I would give my baby unisex clothing. And when they get older the clothing that they like. And in whitch they feel comfertable in. Ofcourse I might say, ow that's nice. But if they don't want to wear it. Then that's okey. Aslong as they don't run around naked (or with the same dirty clothing al the time.)

[Felix]

Excellent question Bi :thumbsup: I think it depends on the relationship you are in .In my case I believe that children should know stuff so they can be more accepting from a young age well an age they understand. I know the old saying ignorance is bliss but how can children protect themselves if they are not fully informed for when they go into the big wide world. I answered any question my son wanted to know when I came out he is fully informed and I think he has used the information wisely. He can handle most things that are thrown at him about me. I don't think ya really have to label ya self to ya kids as long as they know like in our case that there are all different types of relationships and that it's ok to love who ever ya want man man woman woman woman man whatever. We are going to have to deal with stuff like this soon with my step son. He doesn't know labels he has known us together since he was like 4 so it's normal to him anyway without complicating it with labels. If he asks cos someone else has brought it to his attention then we will have to deal with it then I guess. He discovered last night thanx to his cousin who is well informed that Gay meant two men living and sleeping together. So I am just waiting for it the big question 'So does two women living and sleeping together mean they are gay?' The joys of children :heehee: xx Felix :hugs:

[John]

I supose I'd rase them in a gender-nutral manner. Actually, I'd rase them like I was rased: both me and my brother where alowed to wear wat we wanted, play what we wanted, and both expected to learn how to cook, clean, chaige a light bulb and know how to reset the fuse box when we tripped a swich. So I'd go with that.

As for informing them of the quer side of life, in england at least other young kids would probably be interested in it if they caired at all. At least then they would learn not to use 'gay' as an insalt. That really bugs me...

[Abraxas]

Yeah, I'd definitely let them gender-identify themselves by giving them choices of clothing and toys when they got old enough to choose. And whenever they start asking questions is when I'd answer them, honestly.
And, of course, being that I'm into Izzard and things, they'd definitely have questions because I'm not going to hide what I like from them.
And I like wht John said about cooking, cleaning, and all that. I wouldn't assign my kids different chores based on gender. Of course, if the kids end up being like me, the chores just won't get done, haha!
And same with sports and stuff. I want my kids to be sporty. Not because I want them on teams, being competetive, but because it's healthy, and it gives a kid good self-esteem and stuff. And if they do get on teams, then I'll support them in that.
Also, I want them to be into music, but that's not the kind of thing you can force a kid into. With sports-- all kids like to play. That's not a big thing. But most kids who are forced into taking music lessons end up hating them, at least for awhile (I know I did-- didn't touch a piano for years after I stopped lessons). So I'll let them choose in that regard.

[MJ]

So many of us are either bi, currently identify as gay, or identified as gay before we realized we needed to transition.

i wish it was that easy, as sometimes i think i am bi but then i just don't know. that said i kissed two of my "gay friends" good bye last night for the first time ever and i liked it :eek: " they were also in drag so thats OK i think ? "

now as far as my children go they i try to teach them respect for everyone no matter what they look like, and to teach them understanding of others and my kids do respect others so i think i did a good job
in regards to unisex clothing they wore what they want my 18 year old son wears pink t-shirts and at 220 pounds 6,2 he can wear anything he wants

[marie354]

It would be nice to let them choose what they want by themselves, but...
When they get into school, they'll mostly be guided by their peers.

The guys have to do what that guys have to do to be in with the rest of the guys. Not necessarily a gang or anything, but just to feel like they fit in somewhere.

Girls the same way. What are you going to do?

I was told all my life that I couldn't be a girl. That didn't stop me from wearing dresses in private. I still did guy things with the guys. Wore jeans on jeans day, etc.

This is a tough issue... Should we, or shouldn't we... What's right and what's wrong for any individual should be their choice, but it's not always the way it is.

Is there a species of oysters or clams that can change their gender at will? It would be so nice if we could do that. It'd make everything so much easier.

[bi_weird]

Is there a species of oysters or clams that can change their gender at will? It would be so nice if we could do that. It'd make everything so much easier.
My palentology friend is in the room as I read this and she says yes. Fish and frogs, lizards, that sort of thing.
Guess we're just born in the wrong species, not the wrong body.

[happyfish]

That's a very good question. I'm not likely to have kids. They're too whiney and sticky and I'm probably not going to have much cash as an artist. I wouldn't want my kids to do withou just because I'm taking a career off the beaten path. But if I did have/adopt kids I'd definately try to raise them in a gender-neutral sort of manner. Like the others have said, they'd get to pick out the clothes and toys they wanted after a while, within practical limits. Chores would be chores. They'd learn to cook and clean because I'd like help around the house and because cooking and cleaning are good skills to have. I'd probably shove them in music lessons as well because learning music has really helped me in life. Plus I love it.

[kerrianna]

Wish there were more parents like you people. :happy: :hugs: :love:

I'm a big believer in empowering (not spoiling) and enlightening (not confusing) your children, teaching them to be creative and critical thinkers. And above all respectful and considerate to all living creatures.

They will be pressured by their peers and society, but if they have healthy self-esteem and a good thoughtful foundation they'll likely be okay.

Unfortunately a lot of parents either lack the skills, energy or commitment to make it work as well as it can.

In my case I can't have children...I'm too busy BEING one still! :rolleyes: :heehee:

[John]

Guess we're just born in the wrong species, not the wrong body.

human femails are the only creature in the world (and so to the best or our knolige - cia aside - in existance) where brests develop prier to pregnancy. As I said to my counseler the otehr day: why couldn't I have been born a cat or something.

Actually, that's another thing on the peranting theam. Cats are a must.

[tommi]

It is hard enough just raising them to be good people, I try to teach mine
tolerance and acceptance of everybody.It will make life so much easier if you
can just get that taught to them.

[CaptLex]

Would you raise them telling them that they are straight and cisgendered, encouraging them to gender appropriate activities and asking them about crushes on the opposite sex, knowing that if they're not you might be boxing them in? Would you raise them gender neutral, so they grow up knowing all the jargon of being queer, and exploring all those ideas, even though it'd be really confusing and social stigmatizing? I'm somewhere between those two extremes, where I couldn't bring myself to ignore queer issues until the kid was grown, but I still want them to grow up being reasonably normal. I just don't know where I'd decide it was okay.
So who gets to decide what "normal" is? How about this . . . what if your child were a product of two different races, cultures or religions? Would you be afraid that he/she/whatever would be stigmatized and ostracized by other kids (most likely of intolerant families) who might find it strange to meet a child who is mixed in some way? There is a lot of intolerance out there towards children like these, trust me I know. Or, what if your child were born (or became) blind, deaf or disabled in some way? You know some other nasty kid out there will make fun of this - how would you teach your child to deal with it? Or, what if your child realized that he/she is gay or trans? Would you discourage this child from being who he, she, etc. is meant to be because you'd be afraid of how the child will be treated? Not making judgments, Bi, just food for thought.

You bring up a good point when you ask about "crushes on the opposite sex". I really hate when people do that - the underlying message is that it's what's expected, what's "normal". I also hate when people say to kids, "when you get married or when you have children" instead of "if you get married and "if you have children". Not everyone is meant to marry and/or have kids, and people shouldn't make kids feel incomplete if that's the path they choose. I've known plenty of people that married or became parents only to please others and regretted it later.

For the record, I raised my own son in as few boxes as it was possible. Because my own clothing choices and playthings had been severely restricted in childhood, I let him choose what he wanted to wear (and for some reason he's always chosen dark colors only - you'd think he was a mortician) and I let him choose whatever toys he wanted to play with (society be damned). He had a collection of toy vehicles and action figures, but he also had some dolls, which he "mommied" or "daddied" and he even said he felt this would make him a good parent someday. And when people questioned it ("your son has a DOLL?!"), I would say, "you got a problem with that?" This gave him the message that we don't have to play the game by anybody else's rules. As long as he's happy, healthy and not hurting anyone, that's what matters to me.

Because my best friend is a gay man and he's always grown up with that, anyone's sexual orientation is a total non-issue to him - sheltering him from that reality would have sent the wrong message that anything other than heterosexuality is "wrong". Also, because we live in a diverse city and I've always had friends of different races, cultures and religions, he doesn't have a prejudice or intolerant bone in his body either. In fact, the only thing he has intolerance for is hatred and bigotry.

My (long-winded) point is that it's a big, bad world out there for a lot of reasons and the responsible thing to do as a parent is to raise our children to face that, not hide from it. Just my :2c:

[Felix]

I agree with ya Captain our children should be tought like I have tought mine the realities of life and how to face them. It leads to a more rounded person who can deal with whatever life throws at them or nearly all anyways xx Felix :hugs:

[JessicaHunt]

Wow, I'm really surprised at the responses. So many of you seem ready to "push" your issues. I have a five y/o daughter and would never put her in neutral clothes with that intent. Why not just let them be themselves and teach tolerance. Like tommi said, "I try to teach mine
tolerance and acceptance of everybody.It will make life so much easier if you can just get that taught to them."

This is a truly great topic though and worthy of more posts. Thanks Felix.

[bi_weird]

My (long-winded) point is that it's a big, bad world out there for a lot of reasons and the responsible thing to do as a parent is to raise our children to face that, not hide from it.
Yeah Cap, I know what you mean with all of that. I end up really confused as to how I feel on the issue. On one hand I want to live up to my principles. On the other hand, it's one thing for me to have problems because of that and a totally different thing to subject my child to it. I know I'll raise them open minded, but I don't know that my four year old needs to know about all that. Luckily, right now my only kids are guinea pigs, so I have time to figure it out. I don't intend to box my kids in, but I'm worried about going to far the other way. Of course, a lot of it will depend on where and when I have kids.

[CaptLex]

Wow, I'm really surprised at the responses. So many of you seem ready to "push" your issues. I have a five y/o daughter and would never put her in neutral clothes with that intent.
Does this mean you'd put her in a dress if she didn't want it?

[JessicaHunt]

Does this mean you'd put her in a dress if she didn't want it?

I wasn't saying that at all. My point was that I think its important for parents to give there children objective (as much as possible) views on the world. The parent's subjective issues should be addressed, but not magnified. For example, I know that one day I'll have to discuss my lifestyle with my daughter. I'll try to present it as it is; non-normative, but genuine and something that should be accepted by others.

[CaptLex]

I wasn't saying that at all. My point was that I think its important for parents to give there children objective (as much as possible) views on the world. The parent's subjective issues should be addressed, but not magnified. For example, I know that one day I'll have to discuss my lifestyle with my daughter. I'll try to present it as it is; non-normative, but genuine and something that should be accepted by others.
Okay, so how is this any different from what myself and others were saying?

[JessicaHunt]

Several people made the point of raising there children in a gender-neutral manner. (Rereading, I didn't see you make that point, Cap.) This neutrality is the unhealthy "pushing" of issues that I was referring to. If the child expresses an interest (Cap, I think you mentioned this), then it's another matter all together.

[CaptLex]

Several people made the point of raising there children in a gender-neutral manner. (Rereading, I didn't see you make that point, Cap.) This neutrality is the unhealthy "pushing" of issues that I was referring to. If the child express and interest (Cap, I think you mentioned this), then it's another matter all together.

So we're in agreement then, Jessica. :^5: I can't speak for anyone else, but I think the point of raising kids in a gender-neutral environment was made to express the view that we shouldn't force kids into one box or another and leave it open for them to decide for themselves, once they are able to.

[JessicaHunt]

So we're in agreement then, Jessica. :^5: I can't speak for anyone else, but I think the point of raising kids in a gender-neutral environment was made to express the view that we shouldn't force kids into one box or another and leave it open for them to decide for themselves, once they are able to.

Cap, I hope you're right. Overall, I think it's an important parental issue to be discussed. In general, I think if a parent maintains open communication then most obstacles will be overcome.

[Lex]

I only way I'll ever have kids is if someone else is pregnant. I'll get Andrew pregnant, then it'll work out nicely. :)

Well, I'm only 18, so this kind of thought is like, WOAH, What? But I'll try.
Well, I'd dress it in unisex clothes for certain. I hate seeing kids all decked out entirely in pink or in trucks or whatever. Unisex clothes. And a range of toys, boys, girls, and all that's inbetween. I'd try and raise it right. And try not to turn into my dad. I'd give it the toys/clothes/whatever, according to what it likes. The most challenging thing for me would be to raise a really girly girl. That would drive me nuts. A girl who goes shopping and has girly sleepovers and thinks about boys all the time etc. For me that would be hard, but I wouldn't try and force her to be anything else. I'd just try to let the kid/s be themselves.

[bi_weird]

The most challenging thing for me would be to raise a really girly girl.
OMW YES! I'm terrified that some future daughter is going to hit 13 and turn into a normal teenage girly girl (I think until I could deal with it, 'cause younger is easier)...and suddenly my daughter and I will be completely different species. My spouse will have to be in charge if that happens.

[pocoyo]

If I was a parent I would be a Dad.

Hmmm that's interesting... girly girl... I think I could handle a girly girl, I'd be quite proud of her, but... I would hate it when she started getting boyfriends... oooh the stress!

What I'd really like though is a sweet son.

Or maybe both.

EWWWW not that I even want children... ehem (waaay too babyish and selfish). But you know.. one day if I was a dad... hypothetically speaking.... (awww being call "Daddy" *tries not to go stupid and soppy*)

Er and if... hypothetically speaking.... I was a dad.... to answer the original question....

Well I think basically I would let them bumble along being themselves with the occasional bit of guidance & explanation should they need it. If that makes sense.

My household in general would be a kind and caring, open-minded, accepting place, so they'd probably just naturally have those values too.

[Evert]

(Just discovered I never replied here.. :p )

I would love to have kids, however if I never get them, too bad, I won't cry. And I would be the father. That the kids never would be mine biologicaly sucks but I can deal with that. (I always thought, if my wife and I really want childeren I would like to ask my brother to be the genetical dad, so the kids look like me)

I would be fine with anything they want to wear or behave as long as they won't turn into criminals or walk around naked. Yes, I think I would even sent my son to school in a dress if he really really wants to. But only if I knew the school wouldn't mind either..