Little observations # 1 / #2 / #3

[Pippilotta]

An accident forced me to remain stationary for several months. It provided lots of opportunity to look around myself, to watch, to think, to read, to explore the Internet. I thought it might be worthwhile to present some of my impressions & conclusions here.
People-watching at the mall, WalMart, shopping-center, etc. seemed to show me that fewer than one in ten women - at least this time o'year - care to be dressed in a feminine way. The standard outfit (more or less) seems to be clumsy shoes/boots/sneakers, baggy trousers, something unshapely on top, stripy hair, no make-up whatsoever, possibly some ear-rings. In short: modified lumberjack. Interestingly enough this seems to transfer also to their way of moving about: quite masculine. Well, to each her own, and taste of course is not a matter of debate. It does astonish me, though, that the above to a high degree seems true also of teenage girls, and at church.
Now, here the point: if the above is fairly true an observation it will at least to some degree explain how come (some) wives react very negatively against husbands en femme. Instinctively they will see it as (implied) criticism, perhaps even as competition, likely as intrusion into an area that ought to be theirs but which they themselves neglect.
It might, of course, also be inspiring: the other day my wife astonished me by asking me henceforth to take care of her manicure "because your nails look so much nicer than mine". They do, and I do.[to be cont'd]

[MsJanessa]

a lot depends on where you live----I spent 8 years living in Canada--where the women really tend to dress up more, even to just go shopping, then they do here in Maine

[Tree GG]

Can't disagree with anything you've said. I, too, have people watched at the mall and seen the same uniform. What strikes me more odd is that these are the same people that will scream about their freedom of expression and uniqueness. A uniform is a uniform. Kudos to you for helping your wife as she requested.

Also, yes, wives can see CDing as a criticism of sorts. As you know, it requires a substantial amount of time to maintain that stereotypical appearance. When you're caring for husband, home, job and children - which are priority items - the stereotype has to take a back seat.

One other thing I noticed you didn't notice - what about men's appearances? I didn't notice much effort there, either. Which is a shame, IMO. :D

[Michellebej]

I currently work as a research technician in a national research facility.

I work with a group of educated men and women. Our ENTRY level engineers are at a Masters level.

While the women at work do tend to dress in a, somewhat, more feminine manner; the trend is to the masculine.

Recently we hired an Engineer that had a Dr. She had quite a bit of fieldwork in her resume and we expected to see another flannel shirt, field boots, and jeans women.

Instead we were treated to a very feminine women. Dress, heels, make up; the works. Oh, and did I mention the wedding ring? So; no hunting here. We thought maybe first day impression. Nope. Turns out this is how she dresses everyday.

The upshot of it is that the other women, for the most part, bitch and moan about the way she dresses constantly! I have heard the complaint that "it makes the rest of us look dowdy".

Now if a GG can do that, then can you imagine what would happen if one of us looked better than our SO?

Michelle

[AllyM]

I also have noticed that "Feminity" has been diminishing in the normal day-to-day attire chosen by women. I think that what really is diminishing is the difference between men's & women's clothes of choice.

[Pippilotta]

The not at least noteworthy thing here is that I live in Northern Arkansas, so there really are no reasons of (Winter) climate to use "modified lumberjack" attire.
There is a remarkable lack of feminine elegance at church as well. When living in the Big City, though, I noticed that black women still dress up, and very nicely so, for Sunday morning.

[noname]

The upshot of it is that the other women, for the most part, bitch and moan about the way she dresses constantly! I have heard the complaint that "it makes the rest of us look dowdy".

Shocking! Perhaps I shouldn't be though. In a place I used to work, this girl wore a pretty femm light cotton dress. One of the girls gave her crap saying, I know what you need with that dress, you need a basket! Yeah, a basket with flowers or cookies or something.

But I have heard it depends on where you live. East coast girls tend to doll up and west coast is more jeans and hiking shoes. So I've heard.

[Rebecca-L]

The upshot of it is that the other women, for the most part, bitch and moan about the way she dresses constantly! I have heard the complaint that "it makes the rest of us look dowdy".

Michelle

It would seem to me that the other women have an opportunity to improve their appearances if they feel this woman looks better than they do. It seems to be a common failing in our society to blame others when we do not perform up to the standards we set for ourselves.

[kathy gg]

I am going to play devils advocate on to some level...are you expecting *high soceity* dressing at Wally-world? if you are you are surely looking in the wrong place. Although I know people of all income brackets shop at Wal-Mart let's get real, who is going to dress up to go discount shopping? Not me... I save my nicer clothing and MAC make-up usage for outings to the high end malls, days when I know I will be sans-child and not having to lug around a dozen toys, snacks, and other assorted distractions in the duffel bag known as my purse. I save my cute heels and tiny purse for days when I all need is my gold card and a tube of lipstick.

Also folks one poster on here made valid points as to why many women do dress down ....becuase men can look, sometimes too long, or they can make assumptions about one's work/job performance if you are too prissy and cute. Add to that a single woman and you wind up having to make sure your smile at the water cooler does not turn into an invitation to dating. Add to that other women thinking you are a ****/*****/ ass kisser at the workplace and guess what....conformist dressing is starting to make a hell of alot more sense. The smaller the heel the higher respect.

At this junction in my life I dont' have to deal with my boss trying to drop a pencil to see me bend over....I am a stay at home Mom...possibly one of those women at Wal-Mart who is so unfeminine. But I have played the game of working and trying to make sure I looked *good*, but only up to a point. I already have dealt with losing a job because I would not sleep with the bosses weasel son.

ANd you wonder why women try to hide their feminity and sexuality?

[GACountrygal]

great post Kathy, great wording, my thoughts exactly
espeially this one
..becuase men can look, sometimes too long, or they can make assumptions about one's work/job performance if you are too prissy and cute.
Nic

[Jodi]

Pippi, When you are at the mall or Wally world, are you dressed in a suit and tie? Are you always clean shaven? Have you freshly showered? Is your hair shampooed and perfectly combed? Are your clothes always perfectly pressed? Are your shoes shined?

If you answer No to these, enough said. Don't judge a women out getting things done during the day.

Jodi

[cindychan]

If I see another black or grey hooded sweatshirt I'll puke....to late.

[Shelly R]

Instead we were treated to a very feminine women. Dress, heels, make up; the works. Oh, and did I mention the wedding ring? So; no hunting here. We thought maybe first day impression. Nope. Turns out this is how she dresses everyday.

The upshot of it is that the other women, for the most part, bitch and moan about the way she dresses constantly! I have heard the complaint that "it makes the rest of us look dowdy".

Michelle

You all have to remember what it takes to dress to impress. Women don't like to spend that much time to look good for shopping and grunge work. How long does it take you to get ready? If you have been doing this all your life would you even care? I doubt it. It is the exception that get's noticed. I dress to impress, when the impression is what I want, Wally-World in heels, not!




Now if a GG can do that, then can you imagine what would happen if one of us looked better than our SO?

Michelle

This has happened to me once, My wife and I were in a Restaurant /Bar and two guys asked to buy me a drink and not her, and she is a size 5. She was no end of angry.

The original Thread is a good one, the information is solid, and a good example if you want to pass while out. Heels, skirts and heavy (evening) makeup will only will get you noticed

[Sandygal]

Down south in Naples Florida, it's very different. I love to sit at the mall and watch the ladies walk by. They dress so very feminine down here. Even when it looks like it was just thrown on. They still looked good. Young to old. When I went up to northern Ill. for my 30th high school reunion. I really saw a big difference. I would say the women dress frumpy. Very, very few women went out of there way to look good. But! the ladies are much nicer to talk to up north.

[Deanna2]

If you want to see consistent high quality feminine dressing you have to go to France. I don't necessarily like all gear the women wear, but you have to give them 10 out 10 for the effort.

[marie354]

And you wonder why women try to hide their feminity and sexuality?

I have asked my GF about this same thing.

As a man, I have never had to worry about my rump getting slapped, or passes being made, or other subtle hints of a sexual nature.
This doesn't usually happen to a guy.
But a woman, especially the good looking ones, have to deal with this from men every day.

It's sad to think that some men look at a woman as a sex object first, rather than a person that could be a nice friend.... Maybe even a lifelong friend.

[RobertaFermina]

I Agree, I would inspire the concern, or irritation of any SO I might have.

I was participating in LBGT Educational Class at my church this week while dressed as Roberta. I collected a comment that I looked better than the genetic women who were present (16 of them). Most of them wore the "casual" uniform.

I replied with my take on this:

"If I did not look 'better' than them, I would look like a man!"

If I could wear as little or no make-up, and dress down like almost all the women present, and still present effectively as a feminine being, then I would do so. I don't know how. I doubt it is possible.

So, I feel compelled to surpass the wardrobe, elan and appeal of any GG unfortunate to have a figure, face, and carriage remotely like mine. Thank heavens that, among men, I am not tall, heavy, broadfaced, or awkward.

This is a unavoidable recipe for competition!

Another part is I want to emulate the best in femininity, not the average.

I don't want to pass, I want people to see me, and behold my personal radiance and my beauty, even if it is appreciated relative to the fact that I am (detectably) a man.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Joy Carter]

I have asked my GF about this same thing.

As a man, I have never had to worry about my rump getting slapped, or passes being made, or other subtle hints of a sexual nature.
This doesn't usually happen to a guy.
But a woman, especially the good looking ones, have to deal with this from men every day.

It's sad to think that some men look at a woman as a sex object first, rather than a person that could be a nice friend.... Maybe even a lifelong friend.


Uh, that is not aways a behaviour reserved for men now. I can tell you about.................

BTW we ended up as friends.:D

[crusadergirl]

Its true i do see women wearing the same clothes older men like to wear and i always wondered why. Kathy was right on everything she said, i really never thought of it that way. I do like to see women looking more femme but i can understand when your shopping in certon places theres no need for it. How ever i have noticed the spring breakers do like to look sexy which is cool but they aren't to nice. Really it don't matter what ppl wear as long as they have fun and have a good life.

[noname]

It's sad to think that some men look at a woman as a sex object first, rather than a person that could be a nice friend.... Maybe even a lifelong friend.

I so agree. Reminds me of this girl at Cold Stone Ice Cream, this total stranger was asking her when she was going on break. I was shocked someone would ask that of someone they don't even know. I definately don't envy women having men hit on them.

[Pippilotta]

The point of my observation was - of course ! - that (many) women react negatively to a cd man that puts so much more time & energy into looking feminine than what she does. It is the comparison that hurts/angers/stresses out.
While WalMart is not Paris (and I have been to both, dressing appropriately), there is a big difference between dressing "modified lumberjack" and plain woman. As I pointed out, it even affects one's way of moving/body language.

[Pippilotta]

I have had (too) much time surfing the Internet, looking at so many of the wealth of cd/tranny sites that now are available, on both sides of the Atlantic, yes, also Antipodes-wise !, and in various languages. It is very noticeable that the age group (let's say) between 25 and the low 30s is exceedingly active in this field. Then there comes a sudden drop-off: URLs no longer work, dead-end links, many sites not renewed since about 2003/04, and so on. And then: lots of silence, or so it seems, and it lasts 15 to 20 years.
It would appear that something happens to cds in their mid 30s: career, marriage, raising children ? The inevitably physical changes that make it so much more difficult to bring out one's feminine sides(-s) ?
There is a rather modest resumtion of activity when cds reach the 50s and 60s. Now, of course, I realize here is a "technical" complication: people in my age group by far are not as comfortable with computers etc etc as those in their 20s and 30s, so likely we in the 50s and 60s are underrepresented in the material. Still, the difference is very noticeable: first so many voices, and then so few.
What attracted me to this site, btw, was that I found a good number of members in approx. my age group.

[Nicole]

"If I did not look 'better' than them, I would look like a man!"

Another part is I want to emulate the best in femininity, not the average.

I don't want to pass, I want people to see me, and behold my personal radiance and my beauty, even if it is appreciated relative to the fact that I am (detectably) a man.

Sorry if I sound trite, but that very much hits home. Beautifully and breathtakingly said. I sincerely hope you are successful in radiating the goddess within.

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

I do think at least for my wife it is about competition. She really feels that I am trying to look better than her, more sexy and such. It is of course not the case and I tell her every day how beautiful she is and I wish that I could look half as good as her and I never will be able to. I really feel that woman dress down because they can, and thats ok because they are wonderful in every way. We dress up because we don't get the chance to do it and we want to look as good as we can as often as we can. It's like Roberta said, she can't get away with less make-up because she would look like a man, by the way Roberta you look "mahvelous"!!!!

[Christina Nicole]

There is also a lot of pressure exerted by the media, by peers, and society. Since the damned fool 60s, there has been an egalitarian pressure to view everyone the same. A guy at work in a $2000 custom made suit or a woman in a $3000 Channel outfit is going to stand out (and above) those in off-the-rack clothes from the mall. But now that everyone is in equally tacky jeans, they all appear the same. Wonderful thing about uniforms, they help suppress individuality.

When I started working many (not too many!) years ago, one (men and women) did not fit in unless one wore a nice suit. As I made more money, I graduated to nicer suits and finally custom made ones. Then, when dress down came around, there was pressure to dress down. Some people even said, "We'd prefer if next time you came here in business casual." The situation now is really stupid. I group my visits to clients by dress code. I visit the suit clients on the same day and the casual clients on other days. This way, I don't wear a suit or casual clothes to the "wrong" place.

Personally, I liked it better when everyone, men and women, dressed better. I once had a guy come in to pitch something. Forgot what, but he was supposed to be a professional. When he finished he asked "So what do you think?" I told him that I thought my trash man dressed better than he did and since it appears that he can't afford to dress well enough to conduct business, how could he possibly assure me that he can afford to execute the contract? Wonder if he went shopping after that meeting?

Don't complain about how women dress. Everyone dresses like a Bowery bum. Actually Bowery has cleaned up. Diamond brokers fill the stores near Canal. Too bad people's dress has not kept pace.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[TxKimberly]

One other thing I noticed you didn't notice - what about men's appearances? I didn't notice much effort there, either. Which is a shame, IMO. :D

WHAM - Tree gave a well deserved slam there. At least as regards myself she is 100% correct. I will spend hours getting ready to do the Kim thing, but if I'm headed out the door as "Matt" forget the effort! I make sure my clothes are clean and are not wrinkled, but that's about it. In fact, it's only the last month or so that I've started wearing slacks to work again. I've been too lazy to even do that the last year or so. So if some of you are like me, maybe we should practice what we preach. If we want women to dress up, maybe WE should be making an effort as males. After all, do YOU want to go through all the effort to dress up fem just to hang with a slob in tennies and jeans?
Kim

[TxKimberly]

"If I did not look 'better' than them, I would look like a man!"

If I could wear as little or no make-up, and dress down like almost all the women present, and still present effectively as a feminine being, then I would do so.

Wow! You know I never thought about it, but this is dead on! If i COULD go out with only a little makeup, count on it I would.

Kim

[Tina B.]

Thanks I needed a good laugh this morning, I loved reading men complain about women not dressing femm enough, when the same men complain about women thinking they should dress more masuline, now think about it, that's funny!
Tina B.

[Alice Torn]

I believe that dress reflests the within, and it most all dress like slobs, maybe they are slobs. I wish your post would be printed in every newspaper, and the commentary, on 60 minutes, and daily news=radio, and tv.

[Pippilotta]

I am getting just a little hesitant about continuing my Little observations. They are, obviously, meant to stimulate reflection and discussion (and, NB!, each number is about a different topic, so they do not at all fare well getting added to each other/lumped together). However, some very basic discussion basics are involved (and I am positive the Moderators will agree).
First: discuss the topic, not your own reflections more-or-less related to the topic. Those may well be worth a Thread of their own.
Secondly: the original writer of the Thread is not the subject of the discussion.
The topic of # 1 (if you would care to check it out) was not how women dress at WalMart. This was just the original observation, and I very carefully hedged it with "to each her own" and "taste is not a matter of debate" (De gustibus non est disputandum, for those of you that like the fine print).
The point was: do we here perchance find a/the key to how (many) women react to their crossdressing men ? On one hand a very relaxed standard, on the other one much care, time and (likely) money expended ?
And, since it was asked: yes, I do shave before going to WalMart, and pull a comb through my hair, make sure my shirt or T-shirt is clean, and I will wear my best blue-jeans or Summer-type trousers. Decent shoes, too. And in Paris, mon ami, white shirt, tie and blazer are simply de rigueur. One is treated accordingly.
So, may I suggest we keep simple ground rules in mind ?
Then we well could continue discussing my little observations, providing what here repeatedly has been asked for, viz. some variation in topics & threads.

[Kate Simmons]

I think a lot of it has to do with generational thinking, lifestyle and advertising and the media. Back in "the day", my Grandmother and her contemporaries wouldn't think of going shopping for groceries or anything else without looking their best in a dress and having their hair groomed. It just wasn't done. Back then shopping was an event done weekly and not just a daily trip to the store to get a few items. Bear in mind, also, that most people had their own gardens, grew their own vegetables and in some cases even raised their own poultry in their backyards, so several trips were unnecessary.
Nowadays, these trips are numerous, not to mention sometimes several times daily now that we have super markets, super centers and mega centers. People just don't have the time or energy to grow their own stuff, having worked two or three jobs a day to pay the bills and so don't have the time or energy to look or act their best either. It's a different mindset entirely. They figure their money is good and so do the merchants, so the old unwritten "dress code" no longer exists as long as everyone is happy.
What I am saying is that the way of life we have adopted in this modern world is reflected by what we wear and how we act in (mostly) non-interactive social situations. I find it amazing that we can be in a store with hundreds of people and still feel alone. The way it works now is: sell, buy, take it home and nobody really cares what the other looks like. I'm not being cynical, that is just the way it is.:happy:

[Pippilotta]

How we dress reflects, actually, not only upon ourselves (who we consider ourselves to be) but also at least to some extent on who we consider others to be: you could honour or dishonour a person by the way you dress.
Anyway, I could see my Little observations are not really accomplishing what they are intended to do, so I shall henceforth limit myself to comment on Threads by others.

[Rachel Morley]

First: discuss the topic, not your own reflections more-or-less related to the topic. Those may well be worth a Thread of their own.
I think it quite normal for people to recount their own refections and experiences related to the topic within their answer. Not everyone wants dissect the subject and discuss it in an unemotional academic way.

[Lovely Rita]

Interesting observations. It looks like it is up to us to keep the girlie clothes manufacturers in business.....LOL

[Rebecca-L]

This thread has caused me to look at people with "new eyes". First, let me say that I fully understand the pressures (time, family, workplace, etc.) that are placed on today's women. Not only do they continue to support their "traditional" roles as homemakers and mothers (Please don't take that wrong. I admire this ability.), but many have added on the responsibility of supplementing the family income, often with unsympathetic employers who feel that all employees (men, women, single married, with or without children) should work 60 hours for 40 hours of pay.

Now back to the thread. I help my wife sell her goods at craft fairs. Not only is she the love of my life, but she is also an extremely talented artist. Because of this, we tend to spend a lot of weekend days at shows where there are a lot of shoppers. Based on the other responses in this thread, I spent time observing the spectrum of people who show up and how they are dressed. Here is what I observed:

Women:
Women make up more than 95% of the attendees at these events. Nothing of note here, since the men are either taking care of yard work or watching the children or engaged in a sport (watching or participating). Kind of a "what did you expect?" sort of result.

The clothing that the women wear to these events is casual, for the most part. It is after all, a craft show, not dinner theater. It ranges from tee tops and jeans/sweats to "daytime dressy" (pants suit, or skirt and blouse or dress). As the weather has gotten warmer, more women are wearing skirts or dresses. The skirts may be casual (jeans skirts) or dressy.

Very often, the women have small children with them. And, the women tend to become "pack mules" by the end of the day. They may already be loaded down with a baby in a sling-like pack hanging in front of them and some packages, but the other children will try to get them to carry coats or (in the case of little girls) their purse. (The show we were at yesterday did not allow strollers.) Sometimes, there will be husbands (or parents or siblings or friends) with them, and they will help share the load.

Almost all (more than 98%) of the women have some makeup on. It may not be more than eye makeup or a little blusher, but they took the time and effort. Again, remember, this is a casual environment.

Men:
The men who attend these functions dress in clothing that ranges from "very casual" to "casual", with the occasional blazer or suit (especially on Sundays). Most are neat, but a few are borderline sloppy. The husbands tend to be supportive of the wives and help with the children and/or the packages. In fact, there are some men who attend craft shows who would overspend on decorating items, if their wives did not keep them in check.

My conclusions:
People are just people. They dress in a manner that is "comfortable" (physically or emotionally) for them. If a woman feels like wearing jeans to one of these shows, it is probably because they are either more practical (stooping down or bending over to look at things) or just because they are going to be in a very casual environment. They may wear skirts (ankle length or knee length) because that would be more comfortable in a warmer environment. They may wear jeans because it is better when a young child is clinging to their leg (especially after an hour or so).
Men never learned how to put together an outfit. I blame this, in part, on the "casual business" environment where we went from dress clothers (jacket, dress shirt, tie, leather shoes) to the outfits that are more casual than "business casual" at work (I'm only talking about the office environments here). In some ways, I think it has hurt productivity because business clothing makes you feel more professional and promotes (in my opinion) a better quality of work. It has spilled over to all facets of our lives. Look around at how people dress in restaurants. When was the last time you saw a jacket and tie when you were out to dinner?

[JulieC]

The upshot of it is that the other women, for the most part, bitch and moan about the way she dresses constantly! I have heard the complaint that "it makes the rest of us look dowdy".

If they are bothered that someone else is highlighting how bad they look, then the problem ISN'T the person who dresses nicely. These people need to look in the mirror if it bothers them.

If you want to dress like "modified lumberjack" (love that expression), then accept the consequences of it or don't accept it and dress differently. Don't dress like that and then not accept the consequences.

(I know you're not saying this...just that the women at your work place who are complaining should hear it)

-BB