why can't we dress how we like in public

[kerrianna]

I've been thinking about this recently. I noticed the other day that many GGs out shopping were dressed in pants, trousers, etc, and many were pretty drab, functional clothes, stuff guys wear all the time. Yet no one thought twice about it. I know it was a battle for women to get to dress this way. My wife remembers being sent home from school in the early 60's because she insisted on wearing pants. But now in Western society we are used to it.

But men can't do the reverse without being looked at like an attention seeking weirdo. Not in Western society today.

There was a time when men in our society dressed in long frocks, with lace, and stockings, and wigs and makeup. It was seen as commonplace. Something changed since then and I'm trying to figure out what it was. So I have a few theories that I'll throw out and encourage you to state yours or refute mine.

First off I'm wondering if the Church didn't play a large role in it changing the way men were expected to dress. This might be a bit wacky, and I hope it doesn't offend anyone, but it seems to me that the sanctioned crossdressers in most western religions are the priests. They wear long flowing robes, lots of jewellry, etc. Did they want to make sure their power stood out by keeping the rest of us in drab, more mundane clothes?

Another thought that occurred to me is that as our society became more patriarchal and men assumed more and more power, keeping the women seperate and in some ways dressed more vulnerably was part of that power division. So if a male 'crossed' over he was giving up power and undermining the patriarchy.

If that was the case maybe there's hope yet for us to dress as we please, because allowing women to assume more functional clothing has undermined that need to keep them seperated and vulnerable. Maybe in a more equal society people will be allowed to dress the way they want without fear of judgement and reproach.

I know if we could have that acceptance many of us would have a more balanced and positive way of crossdressing, and cause less heartache to the ones we love.

Your thoughts?

[Kate Simmons]

I agree Kerri. We just have to take it one step at a time and take it in stride. In the meantime, we can do what we are able to by the way we conduct ourselves to show that we are not weirdos, just people who have a different form of self expression. Coming out of hiding helps but that is an individual decision we must all make.:happy:

[Jodie_Lynn]

Its funny, but one would think that after the fads of the 60's, 70's 80's and 90's that crossdresing would be considered mundane.

I mean look at the outfits from the punk rock era, goths, 60's love children......

[kerrianna]

Its funny, but one would think that after the fads of the 60's, 70's 80's and 90's that crossdresing would be considered mundane.

I mean look at the outfits from the punk rock era, goths, 60's love children......

good point...I notice that today's goth scene is still cool with men in dresses, etc. There are some cool kids in our community that dress in whatever they want, so maybe there's hope.

[lois8795]

from the time a child is born people put on the "right colors" girls pink.. boys blue.. it's not going to change people in this country are like that. in a way we're lucky if we were in a muslim country it would problaby be a death sentence or a flogging. so we get away with it and injoy it, but people arenot going to change that much.. style is a stupid thing that changes very slowly.. but not fast enough for us.

[Byllie]

When you spoke of a patriarchal society I believe you hit it right on the head. *If* men, males, are seen as being in power, then for woemn to dress in masculine clothes is an attempt to share in this power. But, if men wish to dress in feminine clothes. it is seen as relinquishing that power, and thus a sign of weakness.

Now I do not personally believe in this power *bleep* stuff, I just feel this *might* be an explaination of what the issue is.

As for earlier days, when men wore frills and wigs and such, these elements were seen as symbols of power, and women had other *symbols* of clothing that they wore. Women *always* wore gowns, dresses, and never wore "men's" clothing.

IMHO, for society to accept men wearing dresses, there would need to be a true balance, a true sharing of power between men and women, such that clothing no longer represented a sign of power or position.

Will this ever occur? Unfortunately, not in my lifetime, but perhaps in our children's lives. Then again, I've often been called an optimist.

Just my :2c:

[Summer]

It is not against any laws to dress any way you please. As long as you abide by the law you won't get in to any trouble. You may have trouble with social acceptance. However that said, if your not bothering some one else. Why not dress as you wish.
I dress as I like every day of the week. If you can get over your own fears, it will not cause any harm. As long as you can accept the social ramifications.
Summer:2c:

[Billijo49504]

Today, on TV, I saw lots of men in skirts, but most were playing bag pipes...BJ

[Jodie_Lynn]

ummmm does that mean wearing skirts in public is acceptable.......


.... if we are blowing something?
:D


>oooooh the mods are gonna kill me for that....... <

[kerrianna]

Today, on TV, I saw lots of men in skirts, but most were playing bag pipes...BJ


ummmm does that mean wearing skirts in public is acceptable.......

.... if we are blowing something?
:D

>oooooh the mods are gonna kill me for that....... <

LOL, yeah Jodie, I'm ducking...:nono: :hiding:

You're right Summer, it's not against the laws. But a lot of us can't accept the social ramifications. It's too bad there are some still.

Lois, style definitely doesn't change fast enough for us - guess that's why some of us are out there trying to change it.

I agree, Byllie, about there needing to be a balance of power. The world would be a better place overall I think.
I like to think we're part of a movement forward. I am thinking like an optimist these days, having realized that a lifetime of pessimism wasn't doing much for me.

Thanks for the thoughts, and laughs, girls. :hugs:

[noname]

Someone recently posted an article regarding this. A couple of things here.

Firstly, during the industrial revolution clothing makers wanted a cheap fast way to make a buck, and what better than to standarize mens clothing with nothing but strait cuts? Good idea right? But how do you sell it to the average guy? It sold on the idea that the clothes were the same a rich guy would wear, so.... a young poor guy had a chance at scoring the young hottie an older rich man might.

As for women wearing pants. Thing will probably change slowly. From time to time a news article will talk about guys getting sent home for wearing a skirt. But, what I'm really wanting to know, is how women not only took to wearing pants, but took over many mens style of pants and are now considered "womens" Capris and knickers and tights were origonally mens. You might convince your family of the historical facts, but you wearing it... well... they might not be to happy about it.

I do feel many GG's who "fought" for their freedom to wear what they want in the name of equality are usually reluctant to embrace what they claimed they were fighting for.

[Bev06 GG]

There was a time when men in our society dressed in long frocks, with lace, and stockings, and wigs and makeup. It was seen as commonplace. Something changed since then and I'm trying to figure out what it was. So I have a few theories that I'll throw out and encourage you to state yours or refute mine.

First off I'm wondering if the Church didn't play a large role in it changing the way men were expected to dress. This might be a bit wacky, and I hope it doesn't offend anyone, but it seems to me that the sanctioned crossdressers in most western religions are the priests. They wear long flowing robes, lots of jewellry, etc. Did they want to make sure their power stood out by keeping the rest of us in drab, more mundane clothes?


Your thoughts?

Good post and my thoughts are. You forgot to mention the false breasts, the shaving and the makeup. I doubt my priest would wear any of that and if he did he'd be ridiculed.
Its not just the dressing its much more than that isn't it. Dont get me wrong Im all for you wearing what you like and when you like. However, I think if we are ever going to win any battles we have to give a good intelligent argument that doesn't have such large holes in it.
We read time and time again about women being able to wear mens pants and shirts, and yes your right we do. Purely from a practical point of view or just a question of personal taste. We do not however, stuff things down our pants to look like we have a penis, neither do we wear men's y fronts or stringy vests etc. We certainly do not try to pass as a man, If we did we'd get frowned upon too, ask any of the FTM guys, Im sure they dont have an easy time of it either.
So why instead of saying its not fair women do it, dont we put the truth infront of people and start with a logical argument. Or dont even argue, just do it. Quit going on about social acceptance girls, because it aint gonna happen over night and its never going to happen if you keep arguing the toss on the unfairness of it all. Life is unfair, and believe me if the only unfairness you suffer in life is discrimination because of how you dress then your pretty lucky really.
Take care
Bev

[Kate Simmons]

ummmm does that mean wearing skirts in public is acceptable.......


.... if we are blowing something?
:D


>oooooh the mods are gonna kill me for that....... <This is what I'm talking about when I talk about being in control and taking ownership of ourselves. If we do not, we can become "victimized" by society's thinking and attitudes. We need to show we are serious about this in more ways than one. This is why I've developed the no nonsense "knuckle soup" approach (i.e.:"You got a problem, let's settle this right now!"). Maybe not the best approach but it shows I'm dead serious about being who I am and am not going to back down for Billie Bob, a fundamentalist or any gossipy old ladies.

[kerrianna]

Thanks for your reply Bev, it's great to get the GG perspective.

I'm not saying it's not fair that women can dress more like guys in public without attracting undue attention. I am saying if guys could do the same then I think we'd have a healthier more balanced society. I also want to point out that I think the biggest pressure guys get to NOT dress effeminitely in public is from OTHER guys. And I do think my second theory is more realistic than the first one. The priest theory was more trying to figure out WHEN it got so guys had to dress more rigidly. noname's theory is an interesting one as to that for sure.

Not every crossdresser, in fact not many crossdresser's here (and I'm saying that because I know many of this forum's MTFs are usually quiet and only post to what I would call 'less TG' threads (clothing, panties etc)) wants to pass as a woman. Many of us would just like to put on a pretty dress and go out as who we are. If we felt in that mood on a particular day, maybe a sunny day with a nice light breeze that just makes you want to feel the breeze under your skirt, it would be wonderful to just be able to do it and not worry about what people think. It's not necessarily about passing. I wonder if guys got to express their feminine nature in ways every day that were acceptable to society whether they would feel the need for the false breasts, the makeup, the shaving.

I agree that life isn't fair and that's why we are engaged in it so fully. And change doesn't happen overnight, I'm well aware of the neverending battle for women to have equal rights in this culture, nevermind more repressive cultures. And I know that we still live in a patriarchal society and if anyone is going to allow men to wear what they want in public it is MEN.

Like I said before: I'm feeling like we may be part of a greater changing of society (I hope so), a step-up into a higher collective consciousness, so I hold out hope that every step we make leads us closer to our true selves. I threw the question out to ask "how did we get to this place where you can wear this you can't wear this?" in the hope it will help us figure out the answers and how to achieve balance. :love:

[Brianna Lovely]

Good post and my thoughts are. You forgot to mention the false breasts, the shaving and the makeup. I doubt my priest would wear any of that and if he did he'd be ridiculed.
Its not just the dressing its much more than that isn't it.

Hi Bev, sometimes I think we need to seperate the Cross-Dresser and the Cross-Passer. Do we want to go out wearing clothing, traditionaly thought of as women's, or do we want to try to pass as women?
I know many girls frown on those that don't try to "pass", but let's just face it, if you want to change societies views, go out as a man in a dress. If you want to "fool" society, try to pass, but be willing to accept the consequences.

I understand that TG people are trying to express an inner feeling. So, maybe TGs can wear pink skirts and CDs can wear denim, giggle.

[Bev06 GG]

Yes I agree Kerrianna,
I wonder if alot of the unacceptance bit is down to the own CDs attitude though. I know of atleast three CDs who do and have gained acceptance. One of them is a Drag Queen, the other two are just real show offs and like to have a laugh, even at themselves. They regularly go out and have a drink in local pubs, take their wigs off, light up a cigar and have a pint. They see the funny side of life and seem to take their dressing seriously, but lightheartedly. They dont get hung up if someone throws in a snide remark or comment, they just give them the thumbs up and toast a particular view point. As a consequence everyone, including me. loves them. Not only that we miss them when theyre not around.
I suppose if we go sneaking around, pretnding to be something we are not, and taking things way to seriously, then people are more likely to poke fun or judge.
Any kind of acceptance is hard earned and you have to be abit bloody minded. Dont hide, be proud of who you are, and keep your head up so's to speak. I know for many on here that is impossible because they are in the closet, but for those who have abit more freedom to do so, and the character to carry it off then they are going to be your ambassadors.
I am not sure I have met many on here like that cept maybe Karen and Gypsy. Most of you seem to be very upset at how Society perceives you and feel sorry for yourselves. I can't think why really because to me there is nothing more attractive than an individual who stands up to be counted and fights the good fight. Easy for me to say I know and I know you wont like this last bit but for me it takes Balls for a man to dress as a woman and still hold his head up and be proud of who he is, and for me he is far more a man than any regular guy because he has to deal with all the discrimination and take it on the chin. A defeatist attitude never won any battles, but a determined and positive one has the victory.
Love Bev

[kerrianna]

i like your attitude Bev, I agree that just doing it makes change happen.

However....

...let's say tomorrow you go shopping dressed in trousers, sneakers, more male-like clothes....

....and I go shopping dressed in a dress and blouse, maybe women's shoes...
...a nice sunny,breezy day, and I like the feel of the breeze under my skirt...

...who is it that will be stared at, maybe snickered at, or talked about? Who is it that will try to shop while flustered, sweating, wondering what people think?

As much as it would be nice to wear whatever I want the fact remains that if I do I will attract unwanted attention. While this may be ok for some people, it's not fair to my family and friends, and may impact my life in other ways.

I'm not crying about this because I know that people go through worse everyday. All I was trying to do was find out WHY and WHERE the restrictions on clothing came from so we can try to change that. Just like the suffragettes of the 1920's in my country had to face discrimination and worse to win women the vote, men going out dressed will take the flack right now, and not all of us are suited for, or in the position of, doing that. I would say though, that it is primarily other men's mindsets we need to change, and I know that won't be easy.

Like I said, I like your attitude and encouragement. The battle has to be fought on many levels. Not all of us are suited to be the 'shock' troops. If it sounds like we're wimping around in the closet all trying to push the next guy out there to face the music it's because we are humans, and often unsure of what we're even feeling. It takes more than 'balls' Bev. It takes self-belief. And that can be a long time in coming when you're swimming against the tide.

:love:

[Satinpeta]

I think one problem is that too many "blokes" would not take the time or trouble to look pretty. I love to take time in 'doing' myself, to the point that my wife complains that I spend just as much time getting myself ready to go out as she does. Yes I would love to go out daily, to work and everywhere for that fact dressed in satin, lace, heels and makeup as I love my body.

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

I recall awhile back, when "David Beckham" ( football player) wore a skirt , and admitted he wore his wifes underwear !! :eek: there was a right hue'cry about it , but a week or so laters, blokes were wearing the same sarongs as hed worn .
& if anyone watched "comic relief" on friday night in UK, did you see the "little britain" live clip ?? where they did the "two ladies" bit ? and they had that bloke on from BIG BROTHER ?? they did a sketch were he was supposed to be a plumber , and he said he likes wearing womens clothes !! he ripped off overalls and had full underwear and stockings on !!
everyone went mad & thought it was brilliant !! so.... THATS acceptable, i think bit by bit it slowly been introduced more, and maybe who knows one day it might just be ok for c/d to actualy c.d when they want !! :straightface:

[Suzie S.]

I honestly don't think it will ever be acceptable for men to wear a skirt or dress. There's just too many close minded people and too many myths that go along with it. Anytime people see a guy in female attire it will raise a red flag. It's just not going to change. I know it's a double standard and us cd's think it's not fair, but if we choose to cd we have to accept the fallout. It's the same double stardard like women calling their friends 'girlfriends'. If I called my buddies my 'boyfriends' I'd get decked. Same with the 'boy cut' panty thing. It goes on and on...I digress.

We'd be better off focusing our energy on helping society understand CD/TG issues better. I think we are making some strides in social acceptance of transgender people already. Let's hope that trend continues. But, for the world to accept a guy in a dress, nope, I can't ever see it happening.

For me it's not about being able to wear what I want, as a man. I dress this way because I want to be a woman. I enjoy feeling and being feminine. I wear a dress because it draws me a bit closer to expressing what I am. I don't care to be accepted as a guy wearing a skirt. But I do want to be accepted as a guy who wants to be a woman.

Skirts and dresses are for women! That's why I wear them. I know this is a tough subject, sorry I rambled so much! I'm even more confused now, ugh! :rolleyes:

[kerrianna]

Wicked, we know you Brits are leaders in the crossdressing field - always have been. I think having a laugh is a way of guys sneaking it out.

Suzie, I know what you mean. And maybe even if men were accepted to be ok wearing dresses it wouldn't change much for TG/TS people. I know the FTMs here still struggle to be accepted even though they can dress in boy's fashions more. That whole issue is much more complex and deeper.

For this thread I was thinking of many of our more 'conventional' (for want of a better term) crossdressers. Even TGs who want to express themselves more but can't because of societal obligations. Wouldn't it be nice if they had at least that avenue? Don't you think it would alleviate a lot of guilt and pressure?

I do believe we are making progress. I just think if we understand where the restrictions and barriers are coming from we have a better chance of removing, or moving around, them.

[Jackie-Ann]

Wearing in public women clothes its not the only thing that will makes us happy, acceptance that will gives us peace, that's another story

[Brianna Lovely]

Any kind of acceptance is hard earned and you have to be abit bloody minded.

Easy for me to say I know and I know you wont like this last bit but for me it takes Balls for a man to dress as a woman and still hold his head up and be proud of who he is, and for me he is far more a man than any regular guy because he has to deal with all the discrimination and take it on the chin. A defeatist attitude never won any battles, but a determined and positive one has the victory.

Although I love going out as a "girl", I also enjoy being myself. Now, if that's "a man in a dress", so be it.

Of course, in my case, it's more likely to be a skirt and nice top, like this picture.

[Kate Simmons]

Very cool pic Brianna. I'm just a bit jealous though. You, at least, have hair.:heehee:

[Brianna Lovely]

Very cool pic Brianna. I'm just a bit jealous though. You, at least, have hair.:heehee:

Giggle, I keep it short, for when I wear a wig. Kind of feel it would take too much time to let it grow, plus it gets very hot down here.

[Byllie]

In many of your posts, I keep hearing phrases such as "man in a dress" or "a man wearing women's clothes." I wonder if this is part of the problem. What I mean is that the term "man" refers to a lifestyle, or gender, while "male" refers to genetics.

So, perhaps we need to realize that "man in a dress" implies someone who is masculine in all ways except for dress. That's not what we want, I believe. I believe wee want to dress and act as women, that is in a feminine mode, even though our genes say male.

And that's the whole issue, as I see it. It's all about behavior which, as I earlier suggested, goes back to power.

I agree that when females where men's clothing, they do not stuff their pants. Rather, they act feminine. Still, many females also take on elements of the masculine persona. And yes, males also take on feminine characteristics.

I note as I'm typing this, that it's hard to say "female" as opposed to "woman". Is this part of the problem, or a reflection of it? That our language is so problematic?

:2c:

[Angie G]

People can't let things be:hugs:
Angie

[Brianna Lovely]

In many of your posts, I keep hearing phrases such as "man in a dress" or "a man wearing women's clothes."

So, perhaps we need to realize that "man in a dress" implies someone who is masculine in all ways except for dress. That's not what we want, I believe. I believe we want to dress and act as women, that is in a feminine mode, even though our genes say male.

I personaly use the term "man in a dress" to distinguish the difference between those who only dress to "pass" and those who are trying to express a part of their being, that is femine and inside.

Some people may never "pass", but that doesn't diminish their special love, for the person they are. These people should not be shunned or pushed aside, becase they are not as "pretty" on the outside, as some of the other girls.

We all have feelings that we are trying to express. And if the way we express ourselves is by wearing panties under our drab clothes, or a skirt in public or going out "all dolled up", we still are girls at heart.

[Stephenie S]

Most of you seem to be missing Bev's point. Either that, or you are ignoring it. If you think it's unfair that women can wear pants and you can't wear a skirt, you are way off the mark.

You CAN wear a skirt! You can wear any damn thing you want. There are no laws about what you HAVE to wear. And there are even men's business suits sold with skirt bottoms instead of pants. If you want to wear a skirt you can. Go ahead. Women wear pants. Wear a skirt.

The point that Bev is making is that when a woman wears pants, she is NOT trying to pass as a man. She is NOT stuffing her pants to pretend she has a penis, she is NOT wearing a buzz cut wig, she is not using makeup to simulate a 5 o'clock shadow. In short, she is NOT trying to "PASS" as a man. She is still a woman.

If you want to wear a skirt, you can. No one will give you a bit of trouble unless it looks like you are trying to "PASS" as a woman. People might think you are a bit odd, but there are "odd" people everywhere. Butterfly Bill wears a dress everywhere. Nobody gives him trouble because it is clear that he is not trying to "fool" anyone. He just wears a dress!

So get off this "It's not fair that women can wear pants" kick. The problem is that you are trying to look like a woman, not that you are wearing a dress. You are just muddying the water here. It's true that women fought to wear pants in public, but they did it just by doing it. If you want to wear a skirt in public you have to just do it.

BUT . . . That's not the problem is it? We don't want to just "wear a dress". We want to go the whole nine yards. Padding, makeup, wigs, perfume, nails, stockings, heels, everything. We want to present as women to the world. Therein lies the problem. But it's NOT the same thing as women being able to wear pants in public. Not even a little bit the same.

Bev is making a valid and important point. And she is RIGHT. There is very little relationship between CDing and women wearing pants. Women wearing pants are still women. They are NOT trying to "BE" men. They are NOT impersonating men. They are NOT trying to fool anyone into thinking that they are men. They are just wearing pants. Just like you can wear a skirt if you want to.

I have often told the story of the man I saw in Barnes and Noble about a year ago. He was a good 6 ft tall, full beard, lumberjack shirt, work boots, and a lovely pleated navy skirt. No one was paying him the slightest mind.

If you want to wear a skirt or a dress, go ahead. The trouble starts when people think you are trying to impersonate a woman. And, of course, that's just what most of us here ARE trying to do. That's JUST what we want. But stop trying to say it's unfair that women get to wear pants.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Emma England]

Let me ask who this "society" is?

You, yes you the crossdresser, is part of society.

This means that your own views are part of society too.

If you feel that you want to be a woman or a man, you can wear a skirt if you wish.

Women wearing pants is not wrong. Women crossdressing as a man is not wrong.
The same for men the other way too.

I have walked in a busy street in the summer with a skirt on. I think I was presenting as a man at the time I can't remember. No one gave any strange looks or reacted negatively.

So when guys say they are not able to wear a skirt, this baffles me completely.
What are you afraid of? Your own lack of courage?

I choose not to wear a skirt during the winter (but only because it is too cold to bare my legs).
When the weather warms up, well, I will then decide what to wear. You can too.

The same applies to makeup, which I wear both in drab and drag.

[kerrianna]

Okay so obviously a lot of you think I'm operating from a faulty premise here: that it isn't acceptable for men to wear women's fashions casually in public.

Sure it's not illegal. Sure it's done and no one is hurt. Personally I can't recall the last guy I saw wearing something like a skirt or blouse, but then I live in a fairly small (but liberal) town. I know if I were to do it that it would become common knowledge from gossip and I and my SO would have to deal with any fallout from that. That might be nothing, it might be support, it might be questions about what's up with me, it might be unseen discrimination when looking for work, it could even be harrasment from the bigots in the community. I don't know. So for me to do it does require not just courage but the ability to deal with any ramifications. As an introvert and shy person it's a whole lot of stress I don't need.

So in my case I don't think my premise is entirely faulty: there ISN'T a casual acceptance of my wearing women's clothes (even just partially) in my community. There may be acceptance, but it's still something that has to be considered and risked.

The question I raised at the start of this thread was based on the premise that it isn't common practice for men to dress in lace, gowns, wigs, etc when in the past it WAS. I asked people for their opinions on WHY this changed.

I have never said that it's not fair that GGs can dress in male attire. I did say that if it was common practice for males to dress in feminine attire, that we would be more balanced, happier people. Neither am I refering to TG/TS trying to pass or BE female. I'm referring to all males, even ones who might be thinking once in awhile "I wonder what it's like?" but dismissing it quickly cause after all guys just don't dress like that!

It used to be that males could dress more in that way - in fact it was a sign of class. It was understood that certain frilly blouses, stockings etc were male attire. What got me wondering is when and why it changed. By understanding where the social pressures and expectations come from we can address the issue more clearly.

Having the vanguard of brave souls daring to wear what they want is terrific - every social movement relies on them to initiate change - but there's a whole lot of support for them that has to happen to make lasting change and if some of us can't be on the front lines we'd at least like to help with people's understanding.

So to get this thread back on topic, please, why and when do you think it changed? Or do you think it never did? Maybe there has always been a division of genders by dress and it's just that western society today dresses guys more simply. Of course these are generalizations. Lots of people flount convention. But there is a conventional society out there we must deal with. I was just curious as to when and why male fashions became less 'feminine'.

For the record, I'm well aware of the harassment and discrimination GGs had to put up with to be able to wear pants as part of their regular clothing. My SO was on those front lines. I know that just doing it is part of making change, and it really helps when people like David Beckham and David Bowie and Marilyn Manson all challenge the conventions. I do think that things are getting more open, in most of western society at least.

Again, I'm NOT talking about passing.

[noname]

We read time and time again about women being able to wear mens pants and shirts, and yes your right we do. Purely from a practical point of view or just a question of personal taste. We do not however, stuff things down our pants to look like we have a penis, neither do we wear men's y fronts or stringy vests etc. We certainly do not try to pass as a man, If we did we'd get frowned upon too, ask any of the FTM guys, Im sure they dont have an easy time of it either.

I believe you have missed the point. I for instance could not wear a kackie (sp?) ankle length skirt with a guys t-shirt to work for an office job. A women can wear mens pants and a womans top to work with out issue. I believe that is what this post is about. I know I can't speak for everyone here, but I know I have never stuffed myself, or worn breast forms, and I don't try to pass either. I may be the minority here, but I believe you understand what I'm saying.

Would society not accept a GG who trys to pass as a man? No not really. I agree with you on that. As a guy who doesn't try to pass and just wants a little equality, am I asking too much? Society seems to think so.

[Brianna Lovely]

kerrianna, here's an interesting comment about judicial wear. Sounds like a power trip to me.


"Sir William Dugdale, in his chapter concerning the personal attire of judges, said "That peculiar and decent vestments have, from great antiquity, been used in religious services, we have the authority of God's sacred precept to Moses, 'Thou shalt make holy raiments of Aaron and his sons, that are to minister unto me, that they may be for glory and beauty.' In this light and flippant age (18th Century), there are men irreverent enough to smile at the habiliments which our judges wear in court, for the glory of God and the seemly embellishment of their own natural beauty."

[Lovely Rita]

I think things are slowly changing and perhaps in generations to come, Men will be able to express themselves in a dress.

The Divalution marches on.

[Margie]

Kerrianna, that is a question I often ask my wife and she has never really answered it, at least fully. I sure wish it were different but I honestly think we have a very long way to go in that respect. Maybe if we could the world would've changed so much that we'd hate more things than we do now??? Just a thought.

[karenstidham]

It is not against any laws to dress any way you please. As long as you abide by the law you won't get in to any trouble. You may have trouble with social acceptance. However that said, if your not bothering some one else. Why not dress as you wish.
I dress as I like every day of the week. If you can get over your own fears, it will not cause any harm. As long as you can accept the social ramifications.
Summer:2c:
I am sorry Summer but you are wrong in many town and city across the country there are law still on the books about cross dressing and they are slowing changing as more info is know about us

About the religion thing before the time of Jesus there were jewish laws about men and women cross dressing but they wern't about the reason we do it - for the men would dress up as women so they wouldn't be reconise going into the tents of proatutie and women were not allow to wear armor because they were not allow to fight in wars

In many priative society the witchdoctor would wear the clothes of women as a sign of his closeness to the gods , being the one who walk between man and Gods having the apperance of both sexes - this can also be apply to the cathloic priest as he is the the one who walk closer to God than his flock - you go to the priest to confess your sins - why not just confess them to God - because priest need to control their Flocks

As for the victorian era, one of my favoite times, love the dresses and corset, not to fond of the power wigs

[noname]

Many people here have missed the point.

Yes, we can wear what we want, no one will really care. Though you could lose your job if you run into someone at work, or your spouse might leave you. So sure, you can wear what you want, but it may cost you.

Bev, you claims women wear what they want because they do not present themselves as a man. As someone who does not try to pass, can I wear a skirt to work in guy mode and expect to keep my job?

[Trisha]

i do dress how i like in public even as a guy i look like a girl now most times i am dressed female at home and out shopping no one cares its the 21st centry now enjoy who you are as meny have said here :D

[jennifer beckinsale]

boy what a great day that would be. if we could go out in public wearing anything we wanted without a full face of makeup.

[Jere Oneil]

What I think would have to happen for dresses and skirts to be accepted as popular male clothing would be for a new rock group to make it big, wearing dresses and skirts. Look at what happened when the Beatles came on the scene. BB, (Before Beatles) long hair for guys was seen in much the same way as men wearing dresses. but after the Beatles, it became the fashion, almost overnight. The same thing is happening with some of the rappers and the current fashion of wearing pants so low that boxers are showing.

[btmgrl6]

Where I live I feel safe in going out dressed. i don't think many even take notice,and I am past the point of caring. Coming out cost me a lot in terms of friends and family. I am not going to let some intolerant knucklehead shove me back in the closet. I accept me...don't care about those who don't
Steph

[cindychan]

Mostly because we are worried for safety and many social issues (religion/politics/work/dissapointing and losing family or friends.

[Kimberly]

to answer the question in the title:

You can dress how you like. I dare you to try it, and see how many people abuse you for it. So far, I've actually had no adverse comments thrown directly at me.

Just try it.

The only gripe I have with "society" and appearance is that however you dress, you need to conform to some sort of group or gender - those who don't are considered outsiders... what people in general forget to do is look at the person underneath the clothes and see that they're not too different. :)

[noname]

The only gripe I have with "society" and appearance is that however you dress, you need to conform to some sort of group or gender - those who don't are considered outsiders... what people in general forget to do is look at the person underneath the clothes and see that they're not too different. :)


Thanks Kimberly. :)

[MJ]

ummmm does that mean wearing skirts in public is acceptable.......


.... if we are blowing something?
:D


>oooooh the mods are gonna kill me for that....... <

lol count me in , i got a flute will that help :heehee: