Similarities and Differences

[CaptLex]

I've long been interested in what is similar between MtF and FtM TSs, and what is different. I guess I want to know if we are mostly alike or mostly different from each other. Today I read something that said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that one big difference between us is that FtMs that are attracted to men generally seek out gay men as partners, while MtFs that are atrracted to women generally don't seek out lesbian women. That intrigues me. :raisedeyebrow: Do you think this is true? And, if so, does anyone have a clue why this could be? :idontknow:

[CaptLex]

Well, I guess no one has an idea what I'm talking about. Or maybe nobody cares, or has an answer or opinion on the subject. Or maybe there's no one here that can relate to being TS and being attracted to a same-sex partner (doubtful). So, since my thread is getting lonely, I think I'll answer it myself. :cheeky:

Well, Lex, I don't know for sure, but I think maybe it's a matter of how one identifies. Maybe an MtF TS who is attracted to women doesn't identify with being lesbian, while an FtM TS who likes guys does identify with gay men (I know I do). It might also be that there's an element of homophobia involved. Or maybe MtF TSs who like women don't "jive" well with lesbians - you know, no spark, no chemistry, no mojo. Don't know . . . :idontknow:

[pocoyo]

So, since my thread is getting lonely, I think I'll answer it myself. :cheeky:

Hahaha aww Lex!

I will answer it tomorrow.... I just have no brain tonight..!

:hugs: :love: :bighug:

[Stlalice]

Lex,

In my experience working with, meeting, and talking to trans folk through my church - MCCGSL - there is about a 50/50 break as to whether a trans person will be "straight" or "gay" - about half of the transwomen I know prefer men about half other women. Same deal for the transmen. What may be confusing things for you is the difference between gender identity (who you are) and sexual orientation (who you are attracted to). If you keep those two concepts separate things will start to make sense. Now to throw you a curve - at least two happily married couples that I know are both transfolk - in each case an MTF and an FTM who have had their wedding or commitment ceremony and consider themselves to be man and wife. I have also attended the commitment ceremony for another couple - an MTF and her GG partner. There is also a member of our denomination - ordained clergy - an FTM who is in a committed relationship with his gay male partner. Guess what I'm saying here is that there is no hard and fast rule regarding orientation and/or attraction after you transition. It is something that each of us has to work out for ourselves as we go along on this journey we call life.

[CaptLex]

What may be confusing things for you is the difference between gender identity (who you are) and sexual orientation (who you are attracted to). If you keep those two concepts separate things will start to make sense. . . . Guess what I'm saying here is that there is no hard and fast rule regarding orientation and/or attraction after you transition. It is something that each of us has to work out for ourselves as we go along on this journey we call life.
Thanks for responding, Alice, but I don't think you read my question(s) right. That's not what I was asking. I know that gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate things - I've been explaining that to people since I came out. And I'm not confused about my own sexual orientation - I know what I like and that doesn't confuse me (even if it confuses everyone else). What I was asking about is why gay transmen seek gay cisgendered men as partners (generally speaking), while (I've heard, but can't confirm that) transwomen that are attracted to women don't generally seek cisgendered lesbians as partners, but go with straight women instead. Why the difference? Savvy?

[Stlalice]

Lex,

I suspect its not that I misread your question as that we are looking at different aspects of it. My point about transmen was that in my experience, here at least and with transmen that I consider friends, that they are as likely to pair off with female partners - either GG's or MTF transwomen - as they are to seek out gay men as partners. Same for transwomen - some are in relationships with men - some with women, either GG's or other transwomen. In either case it seems to be about a 50/50 split with no "general rule" about attraction being evident. As for your point about lesbian transwomen seeking mostly "straight " women as partners (when they are attracted to women to begin with) - that runs counter to what I've seen here. Speaking strictly for myself, I'm a lesbian transwoman and my experience has been that most straight women do not want a lesbian partner - either GG or trans. From what I've seen a gay or lesbian trans person is just that - gay or lesbian and it is a separate issue from being trans. Thus there is nothing unusual about their seeking partners in those communities and no generalization applies. :2c:

[CaptLex]

As for your point about lesbian transwomen seeking mostly "straight " women as partners (when they are attracted to women to begin with) - that runs counter to what I've seen here. Speaking strictly for myself, I'm a lesbian transwoman and my experience has been that most straight women do not want a lesbian partner - either GG or trans.
Okay, this is what I wanted to know. So that bit of statistic that I read may not be true and lesbian transwomen might seek out lesbian partners just as gay transmen seek out gay male partners. Thanks.

[pocoyo]

I've long been interested in what is similar between MtF and FtM TSs, and what is different. I guess I want to know if we are mostly alike or mostly different from each other. Today I read something that said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that one big difference between us is that FtMs that are attracted to men generally seek out gay men as partners, while MtFs that are atrracted to women generally don't seek out lesbian women. That intrigues me. :raisedeyebrow: Do you think this is true? And, if so, does anyone have a clue why this could be? :idontknow:

Hehe I said I'd answer this today didn't I?
*Tries to grow a few brain cells*...

Right, well...

Oh wait... OOOH now I get the question....

You're asking if mtfs that like women seek out straight women rather than lesbian women... ahhhh I get it.

I think that a lot of mtf ts's do see themselves as lesbian women .... but to be honest I don't have a lot of knowledge as to whether they seek out other lesbian women to have as a partner, or straight women.

Wow that's quite a bendy one Lex.

I expect that yes some do.
And some.. don't...

And i suppose sometimes it happens that a mtf ts will meet a straight girl.. and then the straight girl realises she is a lesbian or bi.. and then they are a lesbian couple...

*does his famous "curious" stroking chin thing...*

Hmmm....!

As to what ftms that are attracted to men seek out.....

Well in my experience... yeah it's gay men they want to be with, and feel that they are.

If I was to get with a guy I would want him to be gay. I don't really see any other way it could work... unless a straight guy could admit to being homosexual.... And obviously if I'm with a girl (gg or mtf) our relationship is straight. (Me Tarzan, she Jane... :p)


Ahh... the joys of being a trans bisexual accidental-female-bodied ftm occasional mtf androgynous little f*cker :heehee:
Or as I like to call myself... "a man" :p

Oh bugger I rambled and missed another bit out....

Do I have a clue as to why it could be ... that (sometimes) mtf's get with straight ggs instead of lesbian ones?

Hmm, perhaps sometimes the straight genetic girls don't see ts girls as proper females :eek: But surely not. That would be so.... well not right....(unless the mtf doesn't identify as being a woman...which could defeat the object somewhat, unless they were a 3rd sex/gender bending variety of mtf ts! Every single trans person is different anyway...)...

Maybe some gg lesbians aren't always accepting and welcoming of ts lesbians?
I know that some gay guys can be pretty funny about transmen... (wheras others are lovely and welcoming).

Soo... basically, after all that....
my answer is...

I don't know! :idontknow:

[kerrianna]

:shocked: :silly: My head hurts!

haha Pocs, the famous "curious" stroking chin thing - I could just see you.

*scrunches her nose in concentration*

Nope. Haven't got a clue. I'll think about it some more in between the shopping, cooking, sewing, laundering, dishes, looking pretty...:heehee:

[pocoyo]

:shocked: :silly: My head hurts!

haha Pocs, the famous "curious" stroking chin thing - I could just see you.

*scrunches her nose in concentration*

Nope. Haven't got a clue. I'll think about it some more in between the shopping, cooking, sewing, laundering, dishes, looking pretty...:heehee:

Hahaha!

*strokes chin* (Don't u remember me doing that in my vid and saying "curious... curious..." ?)

I have tidied my post up and tried to make a little more sense now... didn't really work though.... :p

*flicks Kez's scrunched nose (:eek:) and chuckles at her cute "housewifey" activities....*

What a cutey.

*Idly wonders why Luna has turned into a Leopard then wanders off to bed...*

[Felix]

Hey Captain funny you should ask this, only last night Yachica asked me if I was single would I go for straight women and would I present as a straight man or a butch woman? Hard questions! I have thought around these issues a whole lot before she asked me.

The answer to the first question is that I would always go for women because that is who I am attracted to. I said inside because genetically I am not male, even though I feel a strong male presence in me I feel inside I am butch lesbian even though externally I present what my Psyche tells me which is male. I don't know how I would approach someone and say I'm like genderqueer if I was in that situation. Good job I'm not lol. If I was taking 'T' Then that would be a different matter cos I would then have a different slant on things probably. Does this make any sense?

So second question answered really cos I would have to say straight man xx Felix :hugs:

[melissaK]

So I made a job change and have had almost no free time for a month. This morning I have "a little" free time. So what thread do I pick to read????? Kerrianna Dear? Did you find anything to make your head stop hurting? Because I need some of it . . .

Hugs, lads,
'lissa

[CaptLex]

Well, I sure didn't mean to give anyone a headache and I tried to present the subject as clearly and simply as possible. I thought it was an interesting topic and I just wanted to know if anyone had any information about it (beyond hearsay, which is what I have). If not, no sweat . . . we'll just stick to the thousands of breast growth hormone threads on the forum. :p

[Felix]

Lex I think it's a great thread and it didn't give me a head ache just made me exercise my brain so nice one Bro!!!!! xx Felix :hugs:

[kerrianna]

Lex I think it's a great thread and it didn't give me a head ache just made me exercise my brain so nice one Bro!!!!! xx Felix :hugs:

That's why it gave me a headache!
I try not to use that thing in my head.

Seriously they are great questions Capt, but I still don't have an answer. Oh, that's why....forgot to switch on the brain. Now where is that little switch?

*wanders away looking at her pretty nails...*

yus Pocs I recall quite vividly the 'curiouser' bit in the video. when I read it I could hear and see you doing that.
:happy:

[Charleen]

I've long been interested in what is similar between MtF and FtM TSs, and what is different. I guess I want to know if we are mostly alike or mostly different from each other. Today I read something that said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that one big difference between us is that FtMs that are attracted to men generally seek out gay men as partners, while MtFs that are atrracted to women generally don't seek out lesbian women. That intrigues me. :raisedeyebrow: Do you think this is true? And, if so, does anyone have a clue why this could be? :idontknow:

Came in late on this one and had to go back to the top and start from scratch. My brain did start to hurt reading the replys.
First off I think we are basically alike. We want to be what we were denied at birth. Kinda like sending a football player on to the field with a foam bat. Boy did we get the wrong equipment!
On the other, as Poc said, I don't know! As for me, thinking about it, I could go either way or any way. I'll say this though, I have always been the passive one, wanting to be made love to, not at.
Capt., you came up ith a tough one! I've all ready taken a couple of aspirin to get this far! I ain't complainin' though!
Without seeing that thing you read, I have to fall back on personal preference. I do think the two are unrelated.
Better quit this for now. My head is screaming! :bonk: I'll be back.
Love and xxxx, Lily

[dancinginthedark]

Wow! Great questions Capt. I've wondered the same myself but that's all I can do, no first hand experience to share with ya. Sorry-- but I do appreciate all the thoughts shared here. And I even learned a new word as an added bonus. Now if you'll all excuse me....I think I'll go freak my husband out by telling him I am cisgendered. :D

dancin

[Danielle_oc_ca]

I know several FTMs and they all prefer women. I know even more MTFs and 80% of them prefer women and the rest are bi.


Danielle

[CaptLex]

I know several FTMs and they all prefer women. I know even more MTFs and 80% of them prefer women and the rest are bi.

Danielle
Thanks for your input, Danielle. If you only go by the ones you know and haven't read much otherwise, it may surprise you to know that the percentage of gay transmen is a lot higher than the supposed percentage of gay cisgendered men. :straightface:

[CaptLex]

Kehleyr,

Thanks for taking the time to respond with such a well thought-out answer. I'm glad someone out there knows what I was trying to find out. Hard to know if stuff we hear is really true or just a generalization or stereotype sometimes.


I'll admit that my experience with gay trans men is minimal. Most trans men I know in real life I've met at lesbian or feminist gatherings, and that may not be a representative sampling.
I think you're right - I think you and I just run in difference circles and tend to know the types we run into mostly.


The "typical" trans man that I've met is not butch, is attracted to women, and is involved with a lesbian woman (or at least a woman that used to identify as such).
I'm not sure how you define butch, but most of the transguys I know are like me - quite butch for a female, but kind of femme for a guy, so I never know how people are using that term. And the "typical" ones I've met are just as likely to be attracted to women, men, both or mostly other transpeople.


Also, some trans women seem to be intimidated by lesbian culture, or fearful of rejection.
Lots of transmen too. Unfortunately, rejection of transmen from a large number of lesbians is very commonplace. :p


A lot of MtF transitioners that like women (particularly older transitioners) have lived their entire lives (up until transition) as "hetero" people. They have never really identified as queer, and they have virtually no experience with queer culture. They are used to dating and being involved with straight women. I think in many cases it takes years for them to come to grips with being homosexual (just as it can take a long time for natal females too).

On the contrary, a *lot* of FtM transitioners have spent a substantial amount of time immersed in lesbian and/or queer culture beforehand. Lots of trans men spend some time involved with the drag king scene. Lots of trans men go through phases where they identify (or are identified by their friends) as a butch lesbian. Just as many women that like women seem to have a problem getting involved with lesbian culture, some of these men seem to have problems *leaving* lesbian culture.
I'm sure that's true of MtFs that used to identify as hetero (with homophobia playing a large role, I'll bet) and I know what you say about transmen that used to be part of the lesbian culture is also true, but I've met so many FtMs that used to consider themselves hetero and (like myself) it seems that they quickly accept and adjust to being gay transmen. Most say some part of them has always known they were gay and were already involved in queer culture to some extent. For those of us that feel that way, once we realize we're trans, it all suddenly makes sense (the gay part, I mean). Of course, most of these are of the younger generation (unlike me - I'm just weird), so that may have something to do with it.


So I think that MtFs have problems entering lesbian culture for largely the same reasons that FtMs sometimes have problems leaving it. Identity is a complicated issue, and I think that identifying as straight or queer is very important to some people.
Yup, I agree.


One other factor that contributes to the stereotype you asked about is that many of us that are heavily involved with lesbian culture are completely assimilated.
Ah yes . . . like the Borg. ;)

Thanks again for your sharing your insight and experiences, they're invaluble to me.

[Kimberley]

Similarities and differences. Good Q Cap'n

I am quite sure that we all share dysphoria over our gender so there is a huge commonality right there. With that comes the societal issues of acceptance and so closeting has to be equally considered. I am quite sure there are many more F2M's than we see at least from the CD side of things.

I also believe that F2M's who come out are more commonly identifiable as TS. I think the ratio of CD to TS in the F2M forums speaks volumes on this. So it stands to reason that there are many more F2M CD's than we see and this is where we have a huge difference. I think the F2M CD can be "stealthy" a lot more easily than the M2F,

Sexuality. I think we all share a commonality here in that as "non ops" we tend to fantasize our roles more vividly. Of course sexual preference is a moot point at any time in this. It is more important how we view our roles in the correct that is to say opposite to biological gender. I also believe this is a massive obstacle for us.

Coming out. I believe that it is another massive common problem. The who when and where become big problems for us. I also believe that we often make more out of it than we need to, perhaps rightly so in certain circumstances.

Mental issues. I think we tend to confuse or rather we tend to blame our gender issues for our problems when in fact we create our mental issues as a mask for gender issues. Fight or flight siyndrome? Perhaps.

Loneliness. We may not be alone, but we do feel a deep lonliness. There is a difference. The real problem is being alone and lonely.

Our gender is not a problem for us. I think that as TS we understand and accept that. Our problems come from fighting it.

I could likely go on for hours but time is scarce at the moment.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[ToyGirl]

To be brief , we cross path's both inevitbly spend alot of time in transition , between genders. Really finding the differences would be easier , because so much is the same.

I would not date a straight girl or a gay guy , just because it contradicts what i am. Though i do flirt with straight girls (old habit) , but gay guys show zero interest in me and thats ok. It's alot easier when people are Bi.

[Stephanie Anne]

Wow, how was this not given the lip service it deserves? MTF transitioners get all the attention and are more widely known even if by gross stereotyping. those transitioning FTM, are at least to me swept under the rug and treated like some bull dyke lesbian to be ginored in hopes it will go away.

In my mind it is harder for us to transition in silence but easier to do so in like minded circles than it is for you to. Does that make sense or is it right? Hell no! The inner turmoil for a girl or woman to change to a man must be harder internally in my opinion than the reverse. I can not imagine what you go through but I do know you all are not alone and if we both are going to gain acceptance in this world we need to do it together.

I think we both have the inner pain of being not the gender we were born with and the hard battle to remove that birth gender from our lives.

Most of us will go through physical means (hormones and surgery) to correct the flaw of our birth gender.

I think the exposure to the public has gained ground for us men who become women but there must still be a bad stigma of "why would a girl want to be a boy?" and "She must be a lesbian because why else would she want to do this?"

Perhaps the second part is partially true? I can't see myself with a woman exclusively once i transition fully. I spent all my life as an incomplete man trying to pretend my way through life and even though I do not associate myself wtih being gay, I just can't see myself as a woman only attracted to women.

I think it also comes down to the feeling that we can one day hope to slip silently into society and live a normal life as a woman in toto while transitioning to a man is a unacceptable concept and leads you into loneliness and frustration as what place do you have in society when society has not embraced or even accepted the concept yet?

I think until we carry both sides of this equally and fully accept our brothers as we do our sisters, how can we become an integrated part of society?

Oh my, this was preachy wasn't it? Well I think you have a lot in common with what we are going through and we all need to learn to accept that the other side of the story is just as complex and involved as anything we go through.

[Kimkandy]

FtMs that are attracted to men generally seek out gay men as partners, while MtFs that are atrracted to women generally don't seek out lesbian women. That intrigues me. :raisedeyebrow: Do you think this is true?

OK my take on this is you can only have your own opinion on how this works... I think you get guys who want to be girls who want to have sex with guys... That is guys who really want to be women, maybe they may or may not be homosexual...

And I think you get guys who want to be girls who want to have sex with girls... Personally I love women and can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to have sex with women, this one gets my vote.

Now women who want to be men I don't get but that's the point because I can't really go there... Only a woman who feels this knows why she wants this.

What I really don't get is why a woman would want to be a man and then want to sleep with a woman rather that just be a lesbian.

But lets be clear it's just me that does not get it.

We live in a strange world and it has all kinds of people who want all kinds of things.

Wouldn't it be all so easy if we were just strait guy and girls and everything was just peachy.

What about if.... No one was gay... Everyone got married and lived happily ever after for 50 years...

******* lesbians or women who want to be gay men? Maybe we just don't want to be or can't handle being normal...

Kim

:dom: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

ps. Elizabeth Swann is so really really hot........

[Cai]

What I really don't get is why a woman would want to be a man and then want to sleep with a woman rather that just be a lesbian.


Because a transman isn't a lesbian woman, he's a man. It's not about wanting to be a man, it's about being a man. It's not a choice, any more than being homosexual is a "choice". You might as well ask why doesn't a transwoman who wants to sleep with men just stay a gay man? It's the wrong body, the wrong relationship...it just doesn't work. And as a woman who "wants to be" a man who likes men, I don't think it's about not wanting to be normal. It's about wanting to be who we really are.
(Clarification on tone here: I'm being nice. Really. Don't think I'm angry with you.)

As far as FTM's being less noticed by society, that's because society's rules allows women to wear anything they want. When I go out in male mode, I either pass or I don't. I don't get "read" as a woman trying to look like man, I look like a woman. It's very difficult for a FTM to wear anything that would be off-limits to a GG, whereas it's very easy for MTFs to wear items that are off-limits to GMs.

[CaptLex]

OK my take on this is you can only have your own opinion on how this works... I think you get guys who want to be girls who want to have sex with guys... That is guys who really want to be women, maybe they may or may not be homosexual...

And I think you get guys who want to be girls who want to have sex with girls...
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, Kim, and I respect it, but I think a lot of what you said in your response shows that you may not understand the difference between CD and TS.


Personally I love women and can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to have sex with women, this one gets my vote.
Well then I guess you won't ever understand me. Can't you see that being attracted to men or women is not a personal preference or choice? It's just something you either are or aren't. It's like, some people like chocolate and some like strawberry. Personally I love chocolate and hate strawberry, but that doesn't mean I can't understand why someone would feel the reverse.


Now women who want to be men I don't get but that's the point because I can't really go there... Only a woman who feels this knows why she wants this.
And here is where you confirm (to me) that you don't understand transsexuality. We're not women that want to be men. We're men that were born with the wrong plumbing, hon. Is that really so hard to get?


What I really don't get is why a woman would want to be a man and then want to sleep with a woman rather that just be a lesbian.
I can't explain this any better than Cai already did (and he did it much nicer than I can too), so see his response above for an excellent explanation.


Wouldn't it be all so easy if we were just strait guy and girls and everything was just peachy.

What about if.... No one was gay... Everyone got married and lived happily ever after for 50 years...
Um . . . how can I say this nicely . . . hell no! Do you really think everyone should be hetero and that marriage solves everything? What would be "peachy" is if everyone were cool with everyone else: straight, gay, lesbian, bi, trans, cisgendered, tall, short, black, white, purple, etc. We need to work on people's prejudices, fears, attitudes, not make us all one uniform anything.


******* lesbians or women who want to be gay men? Maybe we just don't want to be or can't handle being normal...
Normal is over-rated. I don't want to be like everyone else, I just want to be me.


ps. Elizabeth Swann is so really really hot........
Yeah . . . but not as hot as Capt. Jack and Will Turner. :tongueout