Definitions: AJ_GG & Nathan/Natasha

[Sheri 4242]

I think many of us are impressed with how earnest AJ_GG and Nathan/Natasha have been in seeking to learn, communicate, and try and work through the issues surrounding CDing. All of us can appreciate that it is healthy for them to address this prior to marriage!

I would like to correct a misconseption that I noticed in some of the replies to one of AJ's questions -- and I'd like to do so with the hopes that I won't make anyone mad or start any arguments. Attribute this to the professor in me -- teaching and scholarship are not only a part of me, they are something for which I tend to get really OCD!

In answering some of AJ's questions, several people who are CD's said that they weren't TG. Without doubt, the definition of the word "transgendered" seems to be in debate. Therefore, it can be asserted that there is not a precise definition for the word. Often, the meaning of TG depends on who you are talking to, which is unfortunate when we are all attempting to help answer AJ's questions -- the fate of her future with her fiance hangs in the balance of what she learns and, from there, what she can tolerate and/or accept.

I "think" some CDs who said they were not TG were really saying they were not TS. Even within the loosest of definitions, a CD is TG, as is a TV, and as is a TS. "Transgender" is the state of one's "gender identity" and not their sexual orientation. Moreover, TG is aptly applied to where there is ambiguity regarding conventional notions of male and female, or non-conformity to those notions, or moving between the two, sexual orientation notwithstanding.

Not that the following will come as something new to most everybody here, but for the sake of AJ: a transexual (TS) is somebody who believes they were born into the wrong body -- or better put, born the wrong gender. Some will transition through SRS, many will not. It is a common fear many SOs have that their CD may want this someday, but any CD who is honest knows the difference and knows if they fall in this category.

The confusion lies in the fact that TS's do cross dress. BUT, the "m-t-f" CD that is most often refered to here is a heterosexual male who has a duality to their personality -- or an inner dichotomy to their very being, if you will. CD's, such as myself, feel we have a definite male personna and a definite female personna. Another way of putting this is that we feel we have a male side to our being and a female side to our being. "Crossdressing" is the outward, visible expression of the female part of our inner being.

Science has increasing evidence that a CD's mindset is of biological (genetical/hormonal) origin -- there is evidence that, in no small part, the hormone bath received as a fetus plays a major role in this. More recent evidence shows this biological evidence through brain scans. You will hear many CD's say that their CDing isn't something they can just stop or make go away. Well, with physiology, genetics, and hormones all playing a role, is it any wonder why CDing is something that is "hard wired" into our very beings?!!!

((( "Sex chromosomes control sex hormones that bathe the fetal brain and influence its wiring. Recent research confirms male-female differences during development in brain areas with abundant sex hormone receptors." (Cahill, 2005) Simple glandular malfunction during this time has been shown to cause genetic, physiological, and male-female brain wiring patterns. The hormones do not reverse gender identity, but they affect gender behavioral differences. )))

For a long time now, most m-t-f heterosexual CDs have not liked to be labeled transvestites. I was among those who didn't like the term. But, there are some very fine lines in some definitions, and I am now starting to wonder if TV isn't more apropos since it more clearly defines one of the reasons why one crossdresses. There are many who cross dress: heterosexual males who have the mindset explained above, TS's, drag queens, female impersonators, and some male prostitutes. So, it is easy to see why there is some confusion. Probably the biggest myth is that CDs are gay -- but this flies in the face of the fact that most gay men prefer men and not a male emulating a female; that is their mindset. SO's often worry about their husbands or bf's being gay when they find out about the CDing, so hopefuly this latter point will help ease that problem.

Well, I have rambled on too long. IMO, a crossdresser is "transgendered" -- whether dressed or not -- b/c it is a biological state of mind, not current attire. Basically, a transgendered individual has characteristics normally associated with a particular gender, but identify elsewhere on the gender continuum.

I hope this helps -- and again, I hope I haven't offended anyone or made anyone upset.

[kerrianna]

Good post Barbara. :thumbsup:

[Amanda Shaft]

Hi Barbara, a good read, actually you could have waffled on a bit longer for me, I was well into it!

Labels do have such a strong influence on the way people view things, and maybe its time that those definitions were firmly established so we all knew what the hell we were talking about. In the end definitions are not organic or necessarily set in stone, they are agreed terms forming a common point of reference, if we wish we can redefine those terms. One of the successes of the ‘Gay’ movement is that word: they moved people away from more derogatory and degrading terms and imprinted Gay as the common term. I’ve always thought of the term ‘Cross-dresser’ as a something similar: Transvestite holds a stigma associated with all the common misconceptions and prejudices we face. A Cross-dresser may be the same as a Transvestite but from a marketing perspective it sounds softer and is plainer English and easier for the masses to understand. Do we need sympathetically labelling? Ask to next queer you meet!

Waffle, waffle, waffle, am I off thread here?
Going for a lay down Amanda x

[sandra-leigh]

BUT, the "m-t-f" CD that is most often refered to here is a heterosexual male who has a duality to their personality -- or an inner dichotomy to their very being, if you will. CD's, such as myself, feel we have a definite male personna and a definite female personna. Another way of putting this is that we feel we have a male side to our being and a female side to our being. "Crossdressing" is the outward, visible expression of the female part of our inner being.

If that second sentance was intended to amplify on the first:

As far as I know, I'm a "crossdresser", but I seldom think in terms of distinct male and female persona. The differences in my behaviour when I dress are not drawn from a distinct feminine locus: they are more aspects of my personality that are always there but which I otherwise do not often express.

For me, even wearing a dress is not a distinct act of femininity. I enjoy wearing skirts and dresses and nice tops, and I feel comfortable and calm wearing them in a way that I usually don't with mens' clothes, but when I'm wearning them, I'm still just me. (For clarification: I don't feel uncomfortable wearing mens' casual clothes, but when I wear them, I am not aware of a sensation of enjoying them.)

When I go out shopping for women's clothes, I'm not aware of engaging a particular feminine faculty: I still pick out clothes that I like. It's like looking at art: I could not usually tell you what exactly I like about a piece or why I like it: it either makes some kind of impression on me or it doesn't. I don't find different clothes to be interesting when I'm in drab or I'm en femme. Before I had any conscious thoughts about dressing myself, I used to go shopping for clothes for my wife, using the same esthetics (so when I did get the sudden thought that I could wear such clothes myself, I already knew where to shop and I was already comfortable being a male shopper in womens clothing stores.)

The greatest personality distinction that I have noticed in myself between drab and dressing, is that when I am doing something related to my crossdressing, I become more extroverted, talking to people more and interacting with them and learning more about them. That's not a feminine trait, though: closer would be that I always had a more extroverted part of me, and crossdressing gave me an avenue to express it. I have long tended to be extroverted with regards to things I know well and am comfortable with, but introverted otherwise. The things I know well have tended to be highly technical topics, not particularily condusive to human interaction, but talking about clothes and makeup and "How's the store doing" is an avenue to the more personal. Talking about clothes etc. is a different venue for reaching people, but typically "It's not done" by males interacting. I don't think that engaging that venue is thus "feminine": instead, it seems more like sidestepping a social convention that has restricted the approach.

Do I have a distinct feminine persona? Heck, I don't know; it doesn't feel like it most of the time. But I do admit that I was a bit surprised to find that I liked dark green dresses; I don't know where that came from :)

[MJ]

To Quote Barbara :-
Not that the following will come as something new to most everybody here, but for the sake of AJ: a transsexual (TS) is somebody who believes they were born into the wrong body -- or better put, born the wrong gender. Some will transition through SRS, many will not. It is a common fear many SOs have that their CD may want this someday, but any CD who is honest knows the difference and knows if they fall in this category.

first may i say thank you a very good post, some of us transsexual's start out the same way like everybody here except the f2m and i do strongly believe that if everybody here went to a gender specialist you would find quite a few who also fall under the heading transsexual, but they can deal with there issues through dressing, and thats just fine some are afraid to go through transition, my god just try living full time everyday like this you will understand,
but AJ has nothing to fear she is doing the right thing by being here and i commend her for that
As for me i do feel that i am a cross-dresser at heart :eek: i still have my bits and i am reminded every time i got to the washroom , that hurts and i still get read but i would not change a thing well may a girlfriend gg of cource...
hugs Marissa

[Sheri 4242]

As far as I know, I'm a "crossdresser", but I seldom think in terms of distinct male and female persona.

For me, even wearing a dress is not a distinct act of femininity . . . I feel comfortable and calm wearing them in a way that I usually don't with mens' clothes . . .

The greatest personality distinction that I have noticed in myself between drab and dressing, is that when I am doing something related to my crossdressing, I become more extroverted, talking to people more and interacting with them and learning more about them. That's not a feminine trait, though . . .

Interesting response! As I noted, people who crossdress do so for a variety of reasons. Many times my wife will see a gg in obviously male clothing and make note that technically that person is crossdressing -- and how unfair it is that a gg can go out and even be considered chic in male clothing, while a man doesn't have the same freedom, etc.

Regarding what you said about feeling calm when dressed, that, too, is interesting. My wife has noted that I am much, much calmer and even-tempered when dressed. I have heard MANY others make similar comments about their crossdressing!

One final thing that may be of interest is that you say you have noted that when dressed you talk more, interact more, etc. The part about talking more is an item that has been noted in the differences between male and female brain scans (and those of m-t-f crossdressers which were like the female scans). GGs talk more than men -- I can't pull up the statistics right now, but this is widely known among counselors and psychologists -- there have been many studies done showing how much more gg's speak than males in an average day (and how that can often be an issue in marriage therapy). Brain scans show that the speech center of a gg is larger than a man's -- and the brain scans that have been done to-date on known CDs thus far show the exact same larger speech center.

[sandra-leigh]

One final thing that may be of interest is that you say you have noted that when dressed you talk more, interact more, etc. The part about talking more is an item that has been noted in the differences between male and female brain scans (and those of m-t-f crossdressers which were like the female scans). GGs talk more than men -- I can't pull up the statistics right now, but this is widely known among counselors and psychologists -- there have been many studies done showing how much more gg's speak than males in an average day

I don't talk to people much when I'm in male mode. There are days when I go into work and the only thing I'll say to anyone is "Goodnight" to the security guard. My job doesn't have much face-to-face interaction, so any interpersonal conversation is a step up from my average. But that's talking: I keep fairly busy in electronic discussion forums, which involves reading and writing instead of talking.

At an impromptu party a few weeks ago, a woman asked me whether I could talk -- every time she'd seen me that (group vacation) week, I hadn't said anything. (Somehow I don't think it would have gone over well if I had said, "Sure! Shall we talk about bras?" :o )

[Carin's Wife GG]

Most helpful!

:love:
Louise (GG)

[aj_gg]

Thanks for some clarification. I have taken a big step for me and will get a post written on it, but I am just taking each step one at a time. Many thanks for clarification and I understand how professors can be.

In essence from everything nathan/natasha and I have spoken about it mirrors most of your post. I guess it's just my time to grow and see where this can lead. I love him to pieces and am willing to do anything for him, even letting him go on a shopping spree without me. I must say he has a far better fashion sense than I do.

Thanks again.