Why Do Men Wear Dresses? (And Why Do Some Women Get So Upset About It?)

[Satrana]

This is a link to a page by Vernon Coleman, a medical doctor who is also a prolific author and an advice column contributor. He recently came out as a crossdresser himself. He undertook a large survey of over 1,000 crossdressers and here he summarizes his findings.

Be warned, Coleman is not diplomatic about SOs and he pulls no punches. I believe he underestimates the difficulties SOs face in overcoming deep-rooted social conditioning. His own wife is very accepting which may help explain some of his comments.

Still overall I like his attitude and the fact that he sees nothing that crossdressers should apologize for and it is great he has publically come out of the closet to support our cause.

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/andwhydosome.htm

[Carroll]

I was not able to access the web site dear. I'll try it later

[Vicky_Scot]

A very interesting read. The only thing that I disagree with is his use of the word hobby. I always cringe when I hear crossdressing addressed as a hobby.

I think it is appalling that any woman should have the nerve to say to her partner: `Oh, well if you must then I suppose you must - but you can only do it for an hour a week and you must make sure that the curtains are drawn and that I'm well out of the house and by the way I don't want to see any sign of your silly women's clothing and so on when I get back.'

No woman would, I hope, dare say anything like this to a man who took up golf or model making.

I do not think that you can compare crossdressing to golf or model making. IMO crossdressing is part of who I am. I did not choose to be a crossdresser, this was determined in the womb. A hobby is something you decide to take up as a pastime, it is your choice to play golf or make model planes etc. The main difference between cding and a hobby is I can give up a hobby.

Yes there are men out there who decide on day Oh I think I will crossdress to see what it is like, in my eyes they are not crossdressers. I find it hard to believe that anyone wakes up one morning and decides I will be a crossdresser today..........have you ever heard of anyone waking up and saying I will be gay today?

Curiously, crossdressing is so misunderstood and commonly reviled that some women would doubtless prefer it if they found out that their husband was gay or wanted to change sex.

So very true.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another article he wrote "The Three Myths of Transvestism"

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/main.htm

[Satrana]

Thanks skirt lover for the other article
http://www.vernoncoleman.com/thethreemyths.htm

[Veronica E. Scott]

Because they can. I like this guy. Read both of his articles and liked them,wish he lived on this side of the pond, would like to know him as a person.

[maryjanecapri]

first off - how was it a "scientific survey"? i think it might have had more credibility had he surveyed non-crossdressers to get their opinions.

and, after reading these two articles, it seems as if he is a man who has been scorned once or twice because of his crossdressing. i'm not saying he shouldn't wear that on his sleeve, but when claiming something is a "scientific study" it might be wise to not have the heart on the sleeves during the research.

that being said - i do agree with most he states, and i'm glad to read more and more people sharing these feelings and making them public.

oh - one of his points: the idea of groups representing both transvestites and transexuals is spot on. this reminds me of many of my gay friends hating drag queens in their pride parades - they say drag queens give them a bad name/image. of course i'm not belittling transexuals not at all. the same could be said from the transexual point of view (men in dresses looking obviously like men in dresses - bleah!) what i am saying is that if a bunch of men in skirts/dresses were in a parade and there was but one transexual in the group - the crowd would probably see the transexual and think all of the men in dresses were like the transexual. and vice-versa applies.

[Tree GG]

first off - how was it a "scientific survey"? i think it might have had more credibility had he surveyed non-crossdressers to get their opinions.

and, after reading these two articles, it seems as if he is a man who has been scorned once or twice because of his crossdressing...

...:iagree:

I found him judgemental, unsympathetic, scornful and obvious. IMO, he shed little new light on CDing and transgenderism as a whole - just rehashed the same old tired points.

Not just to society or spouses, but to TSes as well. I found his golf ball analogy flippant and callous to TS persons. A CD who claims it's all for fun & relaxation is trying to sugar coat reality. If it wasn't a deep-rooted need, would any of you go to the lengths you do to dress? I'm sure it is fun & relaxing for you when you get there, but that wasn't the motivation for the trip.

I think he is dismissing everyone's (spouse, CD, TS) feelings as insignificant and trivializing TGness.

I'd really love to see a study by reputable professionals that were unbiased and fair. I believe that would do alot of good for the TG community by "normalizing" participants and their families.

[RobertaFermina]

I found his perspective to be helpful for those ignorant of the issues entirely, and rich in bias.

He is, after all, fit to be a subject of his own "study". "Conflict Of Interest" comes to mind when considering the editorial and scientific merit of his ideas, survey, and reportage.

If he was entirely detached, not a crossdresser, and not so empathetic (reactionary?) for crossdressers afflicted by non-understanding spouses, he might research further and develop a greater sophistication and sensitivity for the persons and issues involved.

On the whole, he seems to be educatable, and a useful voice in the arena should that happen.


:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Drucilla]

If you go to one of the above articles and look for the "home" link, you will get a complete index of his Health letter:http://www.vernoncoleman.com/news.htm

The man has a lot of opinions on a lot of subjects !!!!
Worth browsing through . It's thought provoking though you may not agree with many of his insights !!

[Lovely Rita]

Very interesting article and like Roberta, I believe he was a little harsh on the SO's reactions. We also have to understand that our Women have been conditioned as well. They have to process the same thing we have had a life time to work on.

[MJ]

I found his perspective to be helpful for those ignorant of the issues entirely, and rich in bias.

He is, after all, fit to be a subject of his own "study". "Conflict Of Interest" comes to mind when considering the editorial and scientific merit of his ideas, survey, and reportage.

If he was entirely detached, not a crossdresser, and not so empathetic (reactionary?) for crossdressers afflicted by non-understanding spouses, he might research further and develop a greater sophistication and sensitivity for the persons and issues involved.

On the whole, he seems to be educatable, and a useful voice in the arena should that happen.


:rose: Roberta :rose:

very well said Roberta. i totally agree

[kay2]

I found him rather aggressive. Though he is attempting to debunk myths, he is rather absolutist (about TS, SO, ...) and in effect creates new myths. He has missed an opportunity to provide illumination for the paths that we all are on.

[Karren H]

Not bad...... I did like the fact that he also referes to it as a "hobby"....

Karren

[noname]

I do like the fact he calls it like it is. Today is acceptable for a women to crossdress, hell they can show up for job interviews and get hired.

[Tamara Segunda]

"What inspires this level of anger among so many women? Fear, I suppose. But fear of what?"

How about the fear that others will find out, and will judge her for it? She may even pass the same judgment on herself: There must be something wrong with me if I can't attract a real man.

Coleman is certainly entitled to his opinions, but despite his title, I've seen more insightful observations by many who frequent this site.
. . . . . . . tamara segunda

[Svetlana]

Hmm, he has some good theories, but I guess I agree that his harsh tone decreases his credibility somewhat.

[EmmaB GG]

I thought that anything claiming to be scientific had to be based on objective conclusions? Surely being a CDer automatically makes this his subjective "opinion" .......

[GACountrygal]

I do like the fact he calls it like it is. Today is acceptable for a women to crossdress, hell they can show up for job interviews and get hired.

I dont see where you are comin from.
Go to the FtM side and its obviously NOT easy nor any more acceptable for them than yall MtF

And those of us GG's who wear pants for comfort, ARE NOT TRYIN TO PRESENT AS A MAN!! so how are we crossdressing?

[Tina B.]

I dont see where you are comin from.
Go to the FtM side and its obviously NOT easy nor any more acceptable for them than yall MtF

And those of us GG's who wear pants for comfort, ARE NOT TRYIN TO PRESENT AS A MAN!! so how are we crossdressing?

Right On!!! it ain't the same thing at all!

[AllyM]

It is a very good article. Thank you!

[Caroline Simmons]

Not sure if he's recently come out as a CDer. but ive known that for twenty years or more, he used to be a Agony Uncle for a UK tabloid newspaper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Coleman

Interesting read tho

Caz x

[noname]

I dont see where you are comin from.
Go to the FtM side and its obviously NOT easy nor any more acceptable for them than yall MtF

And those of us GG's who wear pants for comfort, ARE NOT TRYIN TO PRESENT AS A MAN!! so how are we crossdressing?

I believe it is not any easier for GG's who are trying represent a man. Many GG's seem to like to point out "BUT WERE NOT TRYING TO LOOK LIKE A MAN!" I'm not trying to look like a women, but just wearing a denim skirt, yet I have gotten some pretty nasty looks and my wife won't go anywhere with me wearing a jean skirt.

If what the GG's claim is correct I could wear a skirt to a job interview and get hired. But we all know that is not true.

Bev, made this same claim. Please GG's be honest, you know you have special privledges.

I don't wear a bra
I don't wear forms
I don't wear a wig

Point is, a man does not have to attempt to represent a GG in order to be an outcast.

Recently I went to get coffee and a girl showed up for her work shift wearing a mens dress shirt and tie. Her coworker upon seeing her exclaimed "Oh! That is Soooooooo cute." I wonder if I can get kudos for showing up to work in a skirt.

GG's I know it's really really hard, buy please try to be honest.

[Eva Diva]

I thought that the article was so bad I don't have the energy to refute it point by point. Many have be mentioned above - the "hobby" thing is ridiculous, the dismissive, hostile attitude towards wives, etc. He comes across as narcissistic in the extreme.

[tartshelly]

My boyfriend reveled to me his crossdressing activity. It is much the same as his fishing, riding his dirt bike. These are things he enjoys and seems to need to do, I do think that cross dressing is a need. So I have refered to it as his hobbie, it occupies his time, he has a desire to get better at it, it cost's money. Amm Tell me I'm wrr wrrroo wwron wrong...

[Tamara Croft]

I do like the fact he calls it like it is. Today is acceptable for a women to crossdress, hell they can show up for job interviews and get hired.You know, you're becoming quite annoying on this subject and to be honest, I'm sick to death of hearing this crap on this forum. Do you not understand the difference between a crossdresser and a GG? Do you not understand that we don't wear mens clothes TO DAMN WELL FEEL LIKE ONE!!!!!!!! Do you not get that most womens clothes have a male cut, but they ARE MADE FOR WOMAN..... I'm tired of supporting people like you, I'm tired of sticking up for people like you and I'm tired of reading this rubbish about GG's can crossdress and get away with it...... Just what is your problem?? you seem to have a huge issue with GG's, because every damn chance you get, you slam us all the time. You're nothing but a GG hating troll, you only post this crap to get a rise out of us. Well, congrats, it's worked, you did really well.... :loser:

[Eva Diva]

My boyfriend reveled to me his crossdressing activity. It is much the same as his fishing, riding his dirt bike. These are things he enjoys and seems to need to do, I do think that cross dressing is a need. So I have refered to it as his hobbie, it occupies his time, he has a desire to get better at it, it cost's money. Amm Tell me I'm wrr wrrroo wwron wrong...



I'd say that it can be a hobby of sorts, but more often, in the case of those who start when they are pre-adolescents, it is a deep-seated matter of identity. A hobby may be a life-long avocation for some, like fishing, but fishing does not define the fisherman as a human being. The particulars of an individual always need to be separated from the general condition. Just because it's something of a hobby to me doesn't mean that it's a hobby for most. There's a name for that failure of logic, I'm sure. Read about purging here. Many dressers try repeatedly to quit, throwing out their clothes and makeup, only to start again and again. That kind of compulsive behavior is not representative of "hobby"-level involvement.

[Svetlana]

I thought that anything claiming to be scientific had to be based on objective conclusions? Surely being a CDer automatically makes this his subjective "opinion" .......
Not necessarily. Just because he's a CDer doing a survey on CDers, that doesn't make his statistics merely an "opinion." It might be considered a conflict of interests, but that's it.

He does have a lot of good statistics, and the whole empirical process is based on the assumption that the researcher in question has done his research objectively and empirically. Other researchers are free to try to refute the findings with other research, however, but it's all a pretty good system in general.

[Kieron Andrew]

I do like the fact he calls it like it is. Today is acceptable for a women to crossdress, hell they can show up for job interviews and get hired.
whoa talk about a total sexist and inconsiderate post considering we have FTMs here on the boards!........do you how hard it is to be accept as FTM.....no of course not cos you dont live the life we do!.......women androgenous styles are widely recognised i give you that! women can wear pants/trousers and jeans, yes! but to say they are crossdressing is out of it, they dont wear mens clothes to crossdress they wear them for comfort that is soooo a different thing! you just havent got a clue!

[GACountrygal]

GG's I know it's really really hard, buy please try to be honest.

call me a liar again and see what happens :gg: :nono:

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Do you really want my opinion?
Kew

[Kieron Andrew]

Do you really want my opinion?
Kew
YES!!!!! pleaseeeeeeeeee!! :D

[Tamara Croft]

Do you really want my opinion?
KewYeah let's hear it.....

[Kate Simmons]

It sounds like Vernon does have some personal biases, Satrana, especially directed towards women. I don't see it myself. Women are pretty together people and very understanding. We are all brought up in society's roles which can very easily become stereotyped. A thinking person can look beyond that, however , and look at the person, rather than the trappings. As men we are taught to "tone down" our empathy towards others. Women have the natural knack for empathy and we can learn a lot from them. Still, there is the "weirdness" aspect of the whole thing. 100 years ago, while no doubt practiced by some, CDing was not foremost in people's minds and didn't get the exposure it does today. If I were put in suspended animation, say 125 years ago and awoke to this now, I'd probably say:"What, men are wearing dresses? What's next, makeup?" I'd probably also think the world was going to hell in a handbasket because my Father and his before him, etc. held a different image for me and until I understood the motivations and the issues involved, it wouldn't make much sense.
What I'm saying is that even understanding SO's and family members may take a while to understand these things. It doesn't happen overnight and each case is different and his blanket observations on women's non acceptance don't seem valid to me.Closeness and caring are based on empathy and understanding and not just statistics. Only people can care about people and show that by their actions.:happy:

[TxKimberly]

It seems to me that he missed a major and significant point - there ARE serious repercussions and consequences to the social life of the CD and his entire family should people in his community become aware of his "hobby".

In a perfect world, people would accept it as harmless, and John Doe who lives across the street from you would not shun you when and if he found out. He wouldn't tell his wife what he had discovered, she wouldn't tell her friends what they now knew, and this snow balling group of people wouldn't hold it against you and your family.
Here's the news flash though - the world is far from perfect, society does NOT accept us, and there WILL be very real consequences should others find out.

To compare this to golf or any other "accepted" past time is ludicrous.
To blame a wife for being concerned, even terrified, at what the consequences to her and her children might be if someone found out, is heartless, selfish, and blind. That my wife has the courage and love for me to know of the possible consequences and yet still say "it's ok, go ahead", fills me with wonder and awe.

Kim

[noname]

Do you not understand the difference between a crossdresser and a GG? Do you not understand that we don't wear mens clothes TO DAMN WELL FEEL LIKE ONE!!!!!!!!

Do you know that I don't wear womens clothes to feel like a women? So by your logic, I'm not a CD?


I'm tired of reading this rubbish about GG's can crossdress and get away with it...... Just what is your problem??

My issue is GG's saying "I'm not a CD cause I don't have the intent of being the opposite sex" when in fact I don't have that intent either. You may not consider me cd but I'm sure most GG's would. But you don't have people take second glances or snickers, or deal with any of the things I have to deal with. Let me ask, do you honestly believe that if I applied for a job presenting as male with the exception of skirt, that I would honestly be considered for a job?

For the FTM, no I do not think you have any easier. I imagine FTM are dealing with the same types of things a MTF deals with.

[linnea]

Thanks for sharing this; it was very encouraging to me to read it.

[trannie T]

Check the rest of Coleman's web site, he has unconventional opinions on many subjects. He is so far off base in other areas it is difficult to give any credibility to his opinions on crossdressing.

[Satrana]

I thought that anything claiming to be scientific had to be based on objective conclusions? Surely being a CDer automatically makes this his subjective "opinion" .......

I dont think that is fair Emma. For example you would have to immediately discount any studies conducted by women on women's issues as biased and nothing more than subjective opinion to be dismissed. Also it could be easily claimed that being a crossdresser himself gives Coleman more insight into the results than a non-cd analyst so his points are more revealing.

He is a very opinionated person, thats how he makes his money. He is not trying to be diplomatic instead he is just calling the shots. His study is large though and the results are about as accurate as you could hope to achieve from that type of survey. It certainly is not scientific but it is worthy of note.

His words are uncomfortable to read but if they make you think about issues differently then they are worth something.

[Vicky_Scot]

women can wear pants/trousers and jeans, yes! but to say they are crossdressing is out of it, they dont wear mens clothes to crossdress they wear them for comfort that is soooo a different thing! you just havent got a clue!

Sorry but after reading your post I have to reply especially regarding the statement above you make within it.

IMO

You say that woman wear mens attire for comfort and therefore they are not crossdressing. Technically they are as they are wearing attire associated with the opposite sex hence crossdressing. But leaving that point behind, how on earth can you say that woman can adorn male attire for comfort yet if I slip on a denim skirt and a feminine t-shirt I am doing it to crossdress.

Am I not allowed to do it simply because I feel comfortable in that attire?

I asked my wifes opinion on your statement and she agrees with my point.


you just havent got a clue!

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and even though we may disagree with it we should treat the poster with respect.

[Kerry Owens]

You know, you're becoming quite annoying on this subject and to be honest, I'm sick to death of hearing this crap on this forum. Do you not understand the difference between a crossdresser and a GG? Do you not understand that we don't wear mens clothes TO DAMN WELL FEEL LIKE ONE!!!!!!!! Do you not get that most womens clothes have a male cut, but they ARE MADE FOR WOMAN..... I'm tired of supporting people like you, I'm tired of sticking up for people like you and I'm tired of reading this rubbish about GG's can crossdress and get away with it...... Just what is your problem?? you seem to have a huge issue with GG's, because every damn chance you get, you slam us all the time. You're nothing but a GG hating troll, you only post this crap to get a rise out of us. Well, congrats, it's worked, you did really well.... :loser:

I wear comfortable clothes that I can easily get dressed into with out depending on Lawrens help, I want to be independent as much as I can. If that means I'm wearing a grey sweatsuit it means I'm just comfy and being able to move around easily. I am NOT trying to "pass" as a male.
Just wake up and realize clothing requirements for women changed as of WWII when to help the war effort women left the fancy dresses, gloves and high heels and worked to pull the miracle of bringing a sucessfull conclusion to the war.
By the wars end the social norm was attempted to be re-imposed but a lot of women found that those jobs were still needed and never went back to the heels and dresses except for special occaisions.
Our styles have changed and for the simpler. To expect women to uphold a standard of over 50 years gone is well,not going to happen.

[Eva Diva]

Check the rest of Coleman's web site, he has unconventional opinions on many subjects. He is so far off base in other areas it is difficult to give any credibility to his opinions on crossdressing.


Coo-coo... coo-coo... coo-coo... what a nutter!



All that's missing is the Jews/Freemasons/aliens ruling the world bit. Or did I miss it? :D

[Butterfly Bill]

Check the rest of Coleman's web site, he has unconventional opinions on many subjects. He is so far off base in other areas it is difficult to give any credibility to his opinions on crossdressing.

Ain't that the truth. He hates a lot of people, from Americans thru the BBC to the Labour Party. I wouldn't recommend that article to someone trying to learn about CD for fear that that person might click on his homepage link after reading it

[Tamara Segunda]

Just to add a data point on the dust-up about whether or not women who wear pants, etc., are cross-dressing.

I work with a female couple who are lesbians. Both of them are physically fit, confident, and intelligent. They both also tend toward the masculine. They do not try to pass as men, but they do wear mens clothing. This is NOT "menswear inspired" womens stuff, but rather pants, shirts, shoes and socks from the men's department. They both eschew makeup, and their hair, though tastefully styled, is a long way from "girly." They may wear a little jewelry, but it's always very understated.

I see nothing bizarre about the way my friends look, but they have told me that they nevertheless are the targets of disapproving stares and occasional hurtful comments. Why? Because of what they are wearing and how they look. Are they CDing? I dunno, but I think their situation makes it clear that women, too, can be on the receiving end of societal disapproval if they stray too far from approved gender norms. Just a point of interest.
.......Tamara Segunda.

[az_azeel]

Does it matter.... this thread seems to be developing an argument of who should wear what and when..... I dress in womans clothing because I want to... I would love it to be acceptable in society... but thats going to take forever... gradually its becoming more and more acceptible.... I agree with Tamara... women do not dress in mens clothing (although originally it was) I am not slating her views but us men are going through the stage that women went through when a woman was chastized for wearing pants... ..At the end of the day why cant we wear what we want...... after all whats the harm.....

[noname]

To expect women to uphold a standard of over 50 years gone is well,not going to happen.

Oh I dunno, seems many GG's expect us men to hold to a standard for over 50 years. Seems there are plenty who expect that. I wouldn't entirely say it's a 50 year ago standard. 15 years ago when I worked at Mcdonalds, the girls were required to wear skirts. It was not an option.

[Alice Torn]

Yes, it's true!!! There is hope for the western world!! The skirt, has NOT died! I have seen several McDonalds, that have their female workers, wear SKIRTS- that dreaded S word!

[Roxi Loh]

Not sure about the hobby thing. I sounds like a very pro CD piece and I dont support the SO comments. However, I would love to use it in a pinch.

[Carin]

He sounds a bit like the Howard Stern/Michael Savage of medicine. His popularity seems to be based on his outspoken views in an outlandish manner, a self-serving self-marketing tool.

His views serve the Crossdressing community only by raising the general publics awareness of the subject, albeit in a rather crude manner but sufficient to allow the general public to look at the topic in a more positive light.

He has no interest in directly contributing support to those involved in or affected by this topic. he is after a much wider field of customers. He is a businessman.

[Linda Z]

And - Why Do Some Women Get So Upset About It?

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

Wow, a whole lot of heated discussion here about a whole lot of semantics. First off I don't feel it's anything like a hobby for me, maybe for some but not this "girl". I also agree with the GG's point about crossdressing, they are not crossdressing by wearing jeans and shirts that are made for a womans body. Also the biggest thing about crossdressing I believe is that it is not accepted by society for whatever reason and who cares. Do what you want with your life, it's too short to sweat the details. For everyone that has a problem with the GG's being able to wear whatever they want and "get away with it" quit being so ....'ed jeolous. Real woman are the most special thing God has ever given to the world, give them there due and appreciate them for the marvelous creatures they are. Emulate them and respect them as a crossdresser and be happy with what you got. This guys info is pretty slanted toward crossdressers and does not respect that it is very difficult for many woman and for society to change long held truths over night.
I am sorry for running on but as for me I vote for real woman to rule the world, they have to do better than man has.