But how does it actually hurt anyone?

[battybattybats]

Hmm... I'm trying to puzzle this one out. Many of the arguments agaisnt crossdressing when in relationships seem to come from an idea that doing so will somehow 'hurt' the SO.

So what I want to know is how it can hurt them and why it can hurt them. Where does the hurt come from?

This is of course apart from any arguments about decpetion, lying or hiding that can occur in some relationships. So if those aspects are removed (or nor present to start with) where does the hurt come from?

A bhuddist friend of mine suggested that it comes from the SO having an expectation or desire of their husbands perceived masculinity or 'normality' and that the thwarting of this desire is what produces pain, but that that is a pain that allows for growth of the persons awareness and therefore is a good and positive pain to inflict on someone.

Another view I've heard is that accepting the free will of others is hard, the closer someone is to you the more you want to have a say in their choices especially if you feel those choices are bad ones and that it always hurts when someone close to you does something that you don't want them to do.

Then it has been suggested to me that there is a greater pressure to conform among women (personally I suspect it might be worse amongst men) and that being forced to have a life less 'normal' causes this pain.

Now surely there must be more to it than just these ideas so can anyone explain to me just what the nature of the SO's hurt is?

[Talon DeRojo]

Batty - I imagine that the hurt comes from having one's expectations violated ("You're a man and men don't/aren't supposed to do that."), uncertainty as to where it will all lead ("Are you turning gay? Bi? Transsexual?), and feeling trapped ("With whom can I possibly discuss this?"). If you go out in public, what if you get caught? Will it affect your job or standing in the community? Will people think less of either of us if they know? Given our culture, what is the possibility of verbal or physical assault? Some of it may simply be from a negative emotional reaction to CDing that one cannot get past.
I hope that some GGs ring in on this one.
Talon:happy:

[Carin's Wife GG]

it is an intangible hurt. One that is not seen by others on the *outside*. There is the loss of the *ideal*, the *normal*. There is the hurt of the CD's *teenage years* when everything has to do with crossdressing. There is the hurt that you cannot be fully open and honest with even your best friend for fear of rejection (had that happen in a round about way). There is the hurt of not being able to tell your children when you have raised them with truth as one of your core values. There is, in the beginning, the hurt of feeling less of a woman, not enough for the CDer. There is the hurt of deciept (intentional or not). There is the hurt of aggreementsmade only to be broken when the CDer finds his needs expanding. There is the hurt of the unknown and where the journey may take you. There is the hurt.



Louise.

[KirstyChibiMoon]

well thats life....
its a large world out there and if im hurting people by being a full time crossdresser then oh well.
they will get over it, eventually.
<giggles>
if not, im probally better off not knowing them anyway.

life is too short to worry about what everyone else is thinking.

[Carin's Wife GG]

well thats life....
its a large world out there and if im hurting people by being a full time crossdresser then oh well.
they will get over it, eventually.
<giggles>
if not, im probally better off not knowing them anyway.

life is too short to worry about what everyone else is thinking.

doesn't think like you.


Louise.

[Danielle_oc_ca]

In Tri-Ess, talking to wary SOs it seems the main hurt is not to the SO themselves. What they seem to be more worried about is what others may think . That they are afraid of the hurt that would come from the embarrassment they think they may experience if someone else found out.

Yes, there is the loss of what they expected in a man. My ex was that way but most women are OK with a bit of cross dressing under the following conditions:

The male dresses as a female parody and make little or no attempt to look good.

The crossdressing is done in private so no one else ever finds out.

Personally, I do not accept these rules. But then I live alone now. And the divorce was because of other reasons.

Danielle

[Carin's Wife GG]

In Tri-Ess, talking to wary SOs it seems the main hurt is not to the SO themselves. What they seem to be more worried about is what others may think . That they are afraid of the hurt that would come from the embarrassment they think they may experience if someone else found out.

Yes, there is the loss of what they expected in a man. My ex was that way but most women are OK with a bit of cross dressing under the following conditions:

The male dresses as a female parody and make little or no attempt to look good.

The crossdressing is done in private so no one else ever finds out.

Personally, I do not accept these rules. But then I live alone now. And the divorce was because of other reasons.

Danielle

either. I want Carin to look her best at all times.


Louise.

[noname]

Well it doesn't technically cause physical pain, though it could hurt in other ways. When someone marries or is in a long term relationship, they usually aren't in it just because they love you. You usually bring something to the table.

They are attaching themselves to you in the way that you meet some ideals of what a man should be. The way you talk, dress, your income and variety of other factors. Then she finds out you are now starkly different than she knew. Some find it easiest to walk away, others have too many attachments, and some work through it. So how does it hurt?

Aside from the picture perfect hubby/so image that came crashing down, she has to deal with other issues. Most women care a great deal about their social status. So's may feel they have undeservingly been thrown into some fringe group. They now have to worry about,

What if our friends find out?
What will my family think?
I hope the girls at work don't find out.
Will people think he's gay or bi?
Will people think I'm Bisexual!?!
I wonder if I'll be known as the wife/gf of that 'wierdo'

It could indirecty affect a serious career women, and her friend may tend to shy away. You have to admit, that is a lot to take in.

[Carin's Wife GG]

Well it doesn't technically cause physical pain, though it could hurt in other ways. When someone marries or is in a long term relationship, they usually aren't in it just because they love you. You usually bring something to the table.

They are attaching themselves to you in the way that you meet some ideals of what a man should be. The way you talk, dress, your income and variety of other factors. Then she finds out you are now starkly different than she knew. Some find it easiest to walk away, others have too many attachments, and some work through it. So how does it hurt?

Aside from the picture perfect hubby/so image that came crashing down, she has to deal with other issues. Most women care a great deal about their social status. So's may feel they have undeservingly been thrown into some fringe group. They now have to worry about,

What if our friends find out?
What will my family think?
I hope the girls at work don't find out.
Will people think he's gay or bi?
Will people think I'm Bisexual!?!
I wonder if I'll be known as the wife/gf of that 'wierdo'

It could indirecty affect a serious career women, and her friend may tend to shy away. You have to admit, that is a lot to take in.

and having worked through most of this, it finally came down to *walking the walk* of truth not just *talking the talk* of acceptance and love. It took a long time to get to this place,none of it was easy and sometimes there is still hurt (on both sides). I am glad I stuck around and got to know Carin better. I really do enjoy her company. I also like the husband part of my SO when he is around.



Louise.

[kittypw GG]

Some of the hurt comes from the selfish use of the extra household money. Why does any extra money have to be spent on cd stuff? Why can't some cd's go without some of the "stuff" so that they can take their wives on a vacation of their choice??? The hurt comes from the knowledge that the cd can't come up with the idea because he is always thinking about the next time he can cd and what he is going to wear.

The hurt come from all of the relationship energy always being sucked up by obsessive cd'ing. Always thinking about it, doing it, plotting to do it. Time and time again I read about how someone is mad or disapointed about a family member coming to visit or in need help. The complaints come because it is an interferance with cd'ing. Now that is what hurts me.

The hurt comes on many levels when a cd is out flurting with men and even sleeping with men behind a wife's back. The hurt comes when she is exposed to a deadly illness that she did not even see comming.

I could go on but I am afraid that it will fall on deaf ears. Many cd's don't really want to address the real hurt that their behavior causes. Just blame it on society and that you can't go out and wear what you want.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it. Kitty

[SandyR]

Walking into my Wifes office (married 22 years) with left over eyeliner, hurt her........Thank god she loves me enough to pull me aside and say "we need to buy you makeup remover". That emmbaressed her big time.

Enough said.

Be careful.

[crusadergirl]

I never really thought to much about how it hurts others or your SO. But i think kitty was right. Some of us take it too far. I can say thats not me, and i haven't hurt anyone by cding.
I'm sure theres more to life then just cding b/c i still do all the other things i like to do. Cding takes over ones life and as i can tell it hurts the ones you care about if you take it to far.
Thats all i have on that subject.

[battybattybats]

Some of the hurt comes from the selfish use of the extra household money. Why does any extra money have to be spent on cd stuff? Why can't some cd's go without some of the "stuff" so that they can take their wives on a vacation of their choice??? The hurt comes from the knowledge that the cd can't come up with the idea because he is always thinking about the next time he can cd and what he is going to wear.

The hurt come from all of the relationship energy always being sucked up by obsessive cd'ing. Always thinking about it, doing it, plotting to do it. Time and time again I read about how someone is mad or disapointed about a family member coming to visit or in need help. The complaints come because it is an interferance with cd'ing. Now that is what hurts me.

The hurt comes on many levels when a cd is out flurting with men and even sleeping with men behind a wife's back. The hurt comes when she is exposed to a deadly illness that she did not even see comming.

I could go on but I am afraid that it will fall on deaf ears. Many cd's don't really want to address the real hurt that their behavior causes. Just blame it on society and that you can't go out and wear what you want.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it. Kitty

Um... ok clearly you have a list of serious grievences there but please let me address them.

Your first complaint is definatly a valid one, but itd be the same if it were something else he spent the money on, its a problem with how extra household money gets split and clearly each person is entitled to a fair share of that and some should be used for both. If one partner is thinking too much of their own needs and isn't being romantic enough that too is a valid problem no matter the subject.

The second problem, wouldn't it be the same with any obsessive hobby or such? Would it be different if it were football or some hobby? I've heard lots of similar complaints from 'football widows' or 'world of warcraft widows' and I wonder if there is a strong difference there?

The third one is an even more serious valid problem as its a serious ethical matter and a big problem (because its done behind someones back). I don't see how thats different than if they were flirting with women or sleeping with women behind their wifes back. Having, even needing an 'open' or polyamorous relationship is one thing, a lifestyle choice, but risking infecting an SO unaware of the risk is clearly another.

The thing is, not one of these very valid problems seem to me to be about the crossdressing itself. There seems to be a problem with fair finance decisions and deficiancy in romance, a problem with finding fair amounts of shared time and a big problem with potentially risky behaviour. The crossdressing seems incidental. If one were to change the 'costume' of these problems they wouldn't practically change at all. Replace the word dressing with 'playing football' or 'going to the pub' and all remain valid complaints, essentially the same. The last one, whether with men or with women would also be the same no matter what.

All good and serious complaints but is the dressing the real cause/issue here or is it merely a surface subject, a veil over some deep and serious issues?

[Carin's Wife GG]

Um... ok clearly you have a list of serious grievences there but please let me address them.

Your first complaint is definatly a valid one, but itd be the same if it were something else he spent the money on, its a problem with how extra household money gets split and clearly each person is entitled to a fair share of that and some should be used for both. If one partner is thinking too much of their own needs and isn't being romantic enough that too is a valid problem no matter the subject.

The second problem, wouldn't it be the same with any obsessive hobby or such? Would it be different if it were football or some hobby? I've heard lots of similar complaints from 'football widows' or 'world of warcraft widows' and I wonder if there is a strong difference there?

The third one is an even more serious valid problem as its a serious ethical matter and a big problem (because its done behind someones back). I don't see how thats different than if they were flirting with women or sleeping with women behind their wifes back. Having, even needing an 'open' or polyamorous relationship is one thing, a lifestyle choice, but risking infecting an SO unaware of the risk is clearly another.

The thing is, not one of these very valid problems seem to me to be about the crossdressing itself. There seems to be a problem with fair finance decisions and deficiancy in romance, a problem with finding fair amounts of shared time and a big problem with potentially risky behaviour. The crossdressing seems incidental. If one were to change the 'costume' of these problems they wouldn't practically change at all. Replace the word dressing with 'playing football' or 'going to the pub' and all remain valid complaints, essentially the same. The last one, whether with men or with women would also be the same no matter what.

All good and serious complaints but is the dressing the real cause/issue here or is it merely a surface subject, a veil over some deep and serious issues?

the hurts that I know of are the less tangible (see my above post). For me personally,it was about mourning the loss of my percieved relationship. There was another persona to include (actually Carin/Pat are one) and I am getting to know her (and as a result him) better. It has taken her and I a goodly number of years to get to where we are now. The hurts still linger but they are easier for me now. I have been able to find that *inner peace* I have been searching for for so long. Part of that process WAS realizing that crossdressing is in and of itself quite harmless. Society's perception of the CDer however is not quite so harmless. I do think us SOs are more likely to pick up on society's less than kind perception of our CDing SOs. My daughter, just last night said that the only thing that bothers her about her father's CDing was that he may be made fun of and have his feelings hurt. Ihope I have explained my POV well enough.



Louise.

[Diane CDN]

Put yourself in her shoes (no..not literally)...
She comes home one day made up like a man and maybe even getting testosterone injections...how would you feel ?
I have talked to so many T girls over the years that seem to think its my way or the highway attitude....God bless woman and their wonderful tolerance.
We could all learn so much if we only listened....

Diane

[RobertaFermina]

The whole bhuddist thing about pain and attachment and expanding awareness by welcoming whatever experience comes is fabulous and cruel.

Fabulous for relationships with other bhuddists, or with people I know WILL grow through painful experiences.

Cruel for people I am reasonably certain will experience pain as just pain, and may even contract around that pain.

Not every S.O. is a bhuddist, or living in the embrace of a spiritual community and/or practice that can help them turn lemons into lemonade.

Those people get hurt.

It is sanctimonious and cruel to think "if they realized that this was an opportunity, they wouldn't have to be in such agony."


:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Carin's Wife GG]

The whole bhuddist thing about pain and attachment and expanding awareness by welcoming whatever experience comes is fabulous and cruel.

Fabulous for relationships with other bhuddists, or with people I know WILL grow through painful experiences.

Cruel for people I am reasonably certain will experience pain as just pain, and may even contract around that pain.

Not every S.O. is a bhuddist, or living in the embrace of a spiritual community and/or practice that can help them turn lemons into lemonade.

Those people get hurt.

It is sanctimonious and cruel to think "if they realized that this was an opportunity, they wouldn't have to be in such agony."


:rose: Roberta :rose:

Thank you!


Louise.

[Carin's Wife GG]

Put yourself in her shoes (no..not literally)...
She comes home one day made up like a man and maybe even getting testosterone injections...how would you feel ?
I have talked to so many T girls over the years that seem to think its my way or the highway attitude....God bless woman and their wonderful tolerance.
We could all learn so much if we only listened....

Diane


for the general compliment.


Louise.:love:

[Carin]

If you are in that extremely small minority such that .... you know AND understand your self completely,AND you declare that to you SO well before you get seriously involved and/or married, AND she accepts AND she likes AND enjoys that piece of you , then maybe there is no hurt directly due to crossdressing. But for the rest of us in long term relationships ...

Relationships and marriage are about life dreams, some reasonable expectations, trust, comfort and security, a safe place where you do not have to be on the defensive, where you can relax from the outside world, and get to know you partner over the years. Of course long term relationship face challenges in its normal course, and strong relationships survive these through hard work and committment.

The hurt happens when we introduce crossdressing after the foundations of the relationahip have been established. The hurt comes from one partner singlehandedly threathening ALL of those basic components in one blow. We can not even give a good reason as to why. The hurt is in taking that safe haven and threatening it. The hurt is in forcing a change in her expectations. The hurt is in injectinig fears that were not there before. Our culture contributes in a negative way, but the CDer is the catalist. Yes, that person that she had counted on being there for her, is now FORCING her out of her comfort zone. And these are not issues that she can leave in the office, to go home to her safe place.

Someone said "Well thats life". Well, no that's not life as she new it, or expected it to be. Take it or leave it???? Girl that hurts her when she has put so much of her life into that relationship. Because it is saying that your "Game of Golf" is more important to you that your relationship. That is not how it is, but it is the message that is conveyed.

I am so thankful to my dear SO for having the strength and courage to withstand these hurts and to eventually be able to see how it really is.
:love: :love: :hugs: :hugs: :love: :hugs: :love: :hugs:

Carin

Carin

[EmmaB GG]

Sometimes it can be a bit like seeing the man you fell in love with, die a little bit.

Sometimes its about mourning a relationship that the GG SO was comfortable and very happy in, and thought was perfect.

Sometimes its about being told you "have" to like this new person (because thats how it's often seen - a new person)

Sometimes it challenges the GG's sexuality which they've spent many years sorting out into something they're comfortable and happy with, especially if the CDing SO is trying to work out if they're TS.

Sometimes it causes so much pain and hurt in the CDing SO that this pain gets transferred - simply because you love the person so much you naturally want to take away that pain (a natural GG reaction for many?)

Sometimes its all of them at once, sometimes none of them or others ....

[EmmaB GG]

I hate to say this, but isn't trying to "sort out" something so highly emotional to a GG ("how does it actually hurt?") in a very black and white way a very characteristically male way of dealing with things ... !

[kittypw GG]

If you are in that extremely small minority such that .... you know AND understand your self completely,AND you declare that to you SO well before you get seriously involved and/or married, AND she accepts AND she likes AND enjoys that piece of you , then maybe there is no hurt directly due to crossdressing. But for the rest of us in long term relationships ...

Relationships and marriage are about life dreams, some reasonable expectations, trust, comfort and security, a safe place where you do not have to be on the defensive, where you can relax from the outside world, and get to know you partner over the years. Of course long term relationship face challenges in its normal course, and strong relationships survive these through hard work and committment.

The hurt happens when we introduce crossdressing after the foundations of the relationahip have been established. The hurt comes from one partner singlehandedly threathening ALL of those basic components in one blow. We can not even give a good reason as to why. The hurt is in taking that safe haven and threatening it. The hurt is in forcing a change in her expectations. The hurt is in injectinig fears that were not there before. Our culture contributes in a negative way, but the CDer is the catalist. Yes, that person that she had counted on being there for her, is now FORCING her out of her comfort zone. And these are not issues that she can leave in the office, to go home to her safe place.

Someone said "Well thats life". Well, no that's not life as she new it, or expected it to be. Take it or leave it???? Girl that hurts her when she has put so much of her life into that relationship. Because it is saying that your "Game of Golf" is more important to you that your relationship. That is not how it is, but it is the message that is conveyed.

I am so thankful to my dear SO for having the strength and courage to withstand these hurts and to eventually be able to see how it really is.
:love: :love: :hugs: :hugs: :love: :hugs: :love: :hugs:

Carin

Carin


:iagree: What a lovely way to put it. This attitude is probably behind why you have a loving relationsip and an accepting wife. :love: Kitty

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

Its the feeling of total :eek: and unexpected'ness that you "thought" you knew ur SO, but then like out-of-the-blue comes the c/d . Its extremley hard to take onboard and realise whats going on @ first :o you feel "violated" because theres this "other" person they become, and your no part of it , every emotion possible runs through you sadly :( BUT , if you love that person , and see beyound the "c/d" then...... it is manageble :happy:

[Kate Simmons]

All of the foregoing posts have given me much to think about. When I fell in love with and married that beautiful girl 32 years ago, I had every intention of being her perfect man and on the surface, I was. I had doubts, however, and assuaged those doubts by secret CDing. When she found out about it, she was hurt, deeply hurt and had doubts in herself. She kept trying to help me over the years but I always seemed to have my own CD agenda, which, to her, appeared more important than my love for her and my family. I think at times it was, especially when I became desparate.

Eventually, we grew further and further apart as the children got older. Finally, I came out openly and she could no longer pretend to tolerate it. What WAS more important to me anyway? I failed her by refusing to give her my trust and she could no longer trust me because of all the deceit. We are still married but not living together. In a sense, the man she married "died" a while ago and she has since gone through the mourning process and adjusted. I've suggested trying again but she is hesitant to have me come back from the "dead" only to lose me once again because she knows how much a part of me this is and doesn't think I can ever let it go. She is probably right as she is a very wise woman. My deepest regret is having hurt her so much by shutting her out. The love of my life is farther away than ever before. It's a tough lesson to learn, especially when you know how much you've hurt someone you hold dear. :straightface:

[Satrana]

Batty,

I think you have already answered your own question - it all revolves around normalcy and expectations.

Look at an alternative situation. A mother finds out her son is gay. Even if she accepts homosexuality and says she is happy for him, she is hurting inside.
She hurts because her son is not "normal"
She hurts because she knows he will face prejudices
She hurts because others will wonder what she did wrong to produce a gay son
She hurts because her family will be a hot gossip topic
She hurts because she will never have a daughter-in-law to chat to
She hurts because there will be no grandchildren
And so on.........

As soon as people are forced to step outside that which is normal and comfortable and have to accept an alternative reality, they hurt. It is deep personal hurt much of which, on the surface, is silly and irrational but nonetheless feels very real and suffocating. And because of the embarressing and shameful nature of the topic, she cannot find others to talk to to release her emotions. And it is all about emotions and little to do with rationality.


and having worked through most of this, it finally came down to *walking the walk* of truth not just *talking the talk* of acceptance and love.

Now there's the truth, actions always speak louder than words.

[bobby-joe]

Yes Yes i agree 1000&#37;, thats exactly how I feel. Iam glad you said what I have een experiencing all along. three cheers yeh yeh yeh thnakyou kitty

[Tree GG]

I have yet to find a Buddhist doctrine I can't whole heartedly embrace. Very wise teachings.

As with anything else in life, that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And I was not proud of my initial reaction to his CD plans, but as said before, they were very real feelings and hurts and uncertainties. I found a way through (although I am nowhere near done). I recently witnessed a "surprise" coming out to another family member and it was one of the top 5 worst days of my life. All those concerns and hurts came crashing down at once and it absolutely devastated her - instantaneously. Thank God she is strong and is coping, in her way, but I have failed to protect someone I love from a pain caused by the actions/needs of another person I love who feels pain because of the same actions that I didn't bring into the house. Can somewhere tell me where the good is in this? I may be missing it, but so far 3 people have/are deeply hurt, and for what? IMO, it is very, very self-centered to expect that everything I want/need should be equally embraced by everyone around me. If I decide I need to go away for a year to search my soul and leave my husband, children, family & career on their own - sorry about ya - I would not be the dependable, responsible person I strive to be. I have a responsibility to the people that love me to cherish that love and keep it safe. Buddha would say to reach enlightenment that is exactly what I should do - go on a soul quest. As I said, I'm not there yet.

These posts do a good job at explaining why it hurts. What it boils down to, when the wife finds out well into the relationship, is that we were dooped. We were sold on something and the fine print was hidden. Absolutely the CD person is still the same person - no question. But the emotional image of my husband that had attached itself to my heart went up in flames - all gone. Game over, reboot. I loved that game as it was, and I don't know the rules to this game and he is not very forthcoming with what it means. Here it is - play or don't. Of course I could've left and destroyed everything we'd built - not just financially, but dreams, plans, committment, family. That's a selfish choice, IMO, and I was not willing to make it without a fight.

Carin, that is probably THE most beautifully written post I've ever seen. Your wife is a very smart lady - she chose you.

So who does it hurt? Everyone that matters. The family & the CD. Should it? The clothes are no big deal. It's how the CD chooses to express his needs (most the time covertly) and the extent of those needs that determines how long the hurt lasts and how deep it goes.

You say I have been conditioned by society to see CDing as perverted. I say you're wrong. My brother CD'd many times (probably more than I know about) - hell I even gave him lingerie and clothes. We laughed and joked about it and said what a God-awful ugly woman he was (6'4" and boobs always too big). But NEVER did I think he was perverse or sick and not one of the best people to have ever walked this earth.

But he never stood up and promised to love, honor and respect me, and keep himself only unto me and take care of me and protect me. Because of CDing, one of the people I love most in this world, broke some of those promises knowingly and deliberately. That hurts alot.

[sara_also]

I always hesitate to get in on this type of thread, because each and everyone of us are different, and have a different relationship. I cannot disagree with most of what has been said. However, I do want to expand on the being hurt issue from the other side of the coin.
Remember my thoughts only..

I feel hurt (bad) when my SO has to go to the market by herself, because I am enfem and cannot be with her.

I feel hurt when I cannot change the oil in the car when dressed as I please.

I feel hurt not being able to do gardening or yard work in shorts and a tank top.

I feel hurt when we cannot take our walk today because I am dressed, and the neighbors would not approve.

(just some small examples)

I only want to point out that being a CD has many, many sides, and in most cases affects the crossdresser as much as it affects anyone associated with them.
This is just my:2c:

[Lovely Rita]

Maybe it is best to really listen to the SOs out there and get it straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

Some time we don't fully understand hurt ourselves. Dialogue is always good.

[aj_gg]

Also (while agreeing with the previously mentioned) were fears I had about, is he still the man I fell in love with? Have I become the "other woman" in his life? Does he still find me attractive? What if I do the wrong thing and he wants to leave me.

When my SO came out to me there were so many thoughts revolving around me. At the time I was very insecure about myself so I kept thinking that this was his way of getting rid of me. There was even a point that I was afraid that it wasn't even him any longer and once he tried to give me a hug while en femme and I just burst out crying saying "It's not you any more is it?" Well I was gravely wrong and we've gotten past that.

[Kerry Owens]

I am going to speak out very loudly. Lawren told me he was a CrossDresser right on the outset of our relationship once he realized how serious it was becoming. I am totally thankful he is the trusting, honest person he is.
Our marriage has strengthened because we do discuss together our feelings
and share the fun of learning about each other.
Lawren understands when I'm having a difficult time with ptsd, and is patient with me.
I feel sorry for someone who is wrapped up only in thierself and leaves everyonelse off their lives, they will find lonliness.

[Tamara Croft]

It hurts when you've been together for 20 years and then you find out. It hurts because for 20 years your hubby has lied and hidden things from you. It hurts because the man you married never gave you the chance to walk away. It hurts because now you're pushed into their closet, often with no one else to talk to, no information, no nothing. You're just expected to embrace it. Well it's not that simple, especially when the man you married wants to dress like a woman and in some cases, transition.

Alot of women then feel trapped, but can't do anything because they've been dependent on their hubby for the last 20 years, dependent on finances, the assets etc... And if the wife is in her 50's what can she do?

It hurts more than you know, more than you could understand. Just because you think it's ok, for a lot of women this just isn't normal and they can never accept it.

[RobertaFermina]

........[snip]....
My deepest regret is having hurt her so much by shutting her out. The love of my life is farther away than ever before. It's a tough lesson to learn, especially when you know how much you've hurt someone you hold dear. :straightface:

I realize that crossdressing is not the only divider of couples.

Alternately Denying and Hiding from, and then hiding my own emotional issues, confusion and fears from my SOs led to dissolution of two beautiful relationships in my life. The pain and sadness of my choices and their impact resonates as I read your post.

Thanks Salandra.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Robin Leigh]

well thats life....
its a large world out there and if im hurting people by being a full time crossdresser then oh well.
they will get over it, eventually.
<giggles>
if not, im probally better off not knowing them anyway.

life is too short to worry about what everyone else is thinking.

In Kirsty's defense, it seems she didn't realize that this thread was about how CDing hurts SOs, and she was speaking about how her CDing affects the general public.

Robin

[Emma England]

It hurts when you've been together for 20 years and then you find out. It hurts because for 20 years your hubby has lied and hidden things from you. It hurts because the man you married never gave you the chance to walk away.

This is the problem. The man does not want you to walk away.

[Sheila]

So what I want to know is how it can hurt them and why it can hurt them. Where does the hurt come from?

This is of course apart from any arguments about decpetion, lying or hiding that can occur in some relationships. So if those aspects are removed (or nor present to start with) where does the hurt come from?

Sorry but the lying is the hurt........ you fall in love with someone and you do not expect them to lie to you, in any major, way and by hiding this major part of themselves they have lied...... maybe for all the reasons we hear about but lied they have and that hurts


A bhuddist friend of mine suggested that it comes from the SO having an expectation or desire of their husbands perceived masculinity or 'normality' and that the thwarting of this desire is what produces pain, but that that is a pain that allows for growth of the persons awareness and therefore is a good and positive pain to inflict on someone.

to that all I can say is it a twisted attempt at trying to justify hurting someone and remaing guilt free but that is just my humble opinion

[Sandi C]

Being a CDer, it hurts me to think I could be hurting anybody else. My wife knows, and is supportive, but I could never tell my family. I often wish I never had the urge to dress. I think life would be a lot easier.

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

A saying springs to mind : "you always hurt the ones you love " :(

[battybattybats]

Hmm... a great deal to think about.
I should explain that I asked the question for 3 reasons.
1. To try and get a general understanding of things my girlfriend is unable to successfully communicate.
2. To try and get an understanding of the moral and ethical arguments so that I can determine on a higher level the possible arguments about right and wrong.
3. General intellectual curiosity and the desire to understand as many different viewpoints as possible.

Now I wanted to leave the deception/hiding out of this because I understand that and I wanted to understand the rest of the problem. I myself was as upfront as I could be given a fair degree of my own ignorance at the time and within probably 6 months of the first date I had learned more about it and was honest about it all. Since then I've been walking a tightrope of horrors with threats of suicide and controlling behaviour.

It seems most of the responses boil down to some simple (though clearly strong and powerful) concepts.

Dashed expectations
Being forced to confront unexpected diversity in place of normalcy
Fear of the unknown
Fear of judgement

It seems to me that what the Dresser goes through when coming to terms with themselves and what the SO goes through are pretty similar except that the SO has the problem of having to accept another persons difference whereas the CD has to come to terms with their own internal conflict.

So the moral/ethical problem....
Lots of things cause hurt in life. When I made clear to a friend that I did not believe in god and wasn't going to convert for them they were understandably hurt, they did not want to imagine me burning in the fires of hell. The closer someone is to you the more hurt you can cause them but would it be more immoral of me to lie to them to protect their feelings?

Much of the hurt still seems to come from social judgement etc The example of the mother with a gay son seems to be a good one. Those feelings seem quite natural but that doesn't make them good or right. Knowledge, understanding, tolerance and social justice seem to be the difference between easy accepting or not for parents of gay people (I've met a fair few from both sides including ones that disowned their kids). This adds an interesting new dimension to the moral dilemma of Cd's choosing to be out or in the closet.

Clearly there is real profound pain involved. It is difficult for a CD to judge whether the hurt to their SO of being lied to if ever found out would be greater than the hurt of coming clean while if they successfully keep their secret forever they cause some hurt for themselves (from loss of freedom, acknowledgement of this side of themselves and the possibility of a deeper and more fullfilling relationship with their partner) but they prevent their SO and family (and themselves) from ever being hurt by it being out which would seem to be the noblest thing to do as it seems to minimise the amount of hurt anyone feels.
The trouble with that view is that nobody is perfect, mistakes happen and so it is a risk, a gamble with the risk of catastrophicly worse consequences than being open from the start.

In informing an SO but otherwise remaining closeted it introduces the SO to the sufferings of the closet, so they then also will suffer the fears of others finding out, fears of being judged by the ignmorance and intolerance of others. They will have a taste of the forces that motivated the CD to be in the closet in the first place. Many would spare their SO such torment and troubles and would rather take the risk for short-term security despite the long-term risk of failure and discovery. The Ignorance-is-bliss view.
There is another side to informing the SO though, the option of choice argument. By informing their SO the CD gives the SO the capacity to choose whether to stay or go, whether to tolerate support or even join in the crossdressing activities, and a share in the decision to bring the Cding out into the open or not and if so then how much and to whom.

In becoming totally open and out (whether from the outset which is clearly best or from choosing to end deception) there is a risk of extending this hurt, this ontological shock, to every family member and friend. The broad extent of that is colossal to think about.
Yet is it not true that in failing to do so a person is in fact protecting the forces that are a large part of this harm? Aren't they perpetuating the problem? Could they be in fact responsible by not standing up for others being in the same dilemma they are in?

If so then the moral question is, is it ok to suffer and to allow loved ones to suffer because of the truth for the greater good of all (or the majority) or is it better to suffer and risk the suffering of (possibly a smaller amount of) loved ones because of a lie despite the detrimental aspects of the status quo?

Before anyone makes any hasty judgements consider these similar thought-experiments. If a million people were going to die, but you didn't know any of them - they are just faceless numbers in a newspaper report from the other side of the world, and you could save their lives at a great personal cost (say by losing your job, house, possessions and savings) would, could you? What if you had to choose between the life of your SO and the life of a million unknown foreigners? What if you had to choose between the torture and maiming of your loved ones and the lives of a billion? What if the million people weren't going to die, just go through horrible stress and emotional upset, what would you be willing to go through or to have those you love go through to protect the unknown people. What if your loved ones were going to be in the million going to die but you had to choose between the million including your family and 100 strangers?

For most people these aren't easy decisions even in a thought-experiment. I not so long ago read an article (on livescience.com I think) on how many people will be more upset at hearing that a small number of people have died than a large number which is interesting.

It seems overly simplistic to condemn closeted CDs for hiding or saying that dishonesty is inherently selfish (though of course it can be selfish depending on the why of the choice). It seems also simplistic to condemn SOs for having trouble accepting or for people to risk their families with the truth.

It seems the truth hurts when it is a truth that is unexpected, contrary to ones worldview or something someone does not want to be true.

So it really does seem that the crossdressing itself doesn't cause any hurt at all in and of itself, but because it is currently a socially unacceptable taboo, because it inspires people to question there own security and sexuality, because it is often done in secret because of the way it is generally received/perceived the reaction to it, the perceptions of it and the way it is often expressed are the causal factors of harm. The harm though is still genuine and real.

This certainly bears a lot more pondering.

[Carin's Wife GG]

add to it personality, values, upbringing and you get a pretty complicated situation.



Louise.

[kassi]

I always hesitate to get in on this type of thread, because each and everyone of us are different, and have a different relationship. I cannot disagree with most of what has been said. However, I do want to expand on the being hurt issue from the other side of the coin.
Remember my thoughts only..

I feel hurt (bad) when my SO has to go to the market by herself, because I am enfem and cannot be with her.

I feel hurt when I cannot change the oil in the car when dressed as I please.

I feel hurt not being able to do gardening or yard work in shorts and a tank top.

I feel hurt when we cannot take our walk today because I am dressed, and the neighbors would not approve.

(just some small examples)

I only want to point out that being a CD has many, many sides, and in most cases affects the crossdresser as much as it affects anyone associated with them.
This is just my:2c:

very valid point. i can think of many things to add to that list of how my husband probably feels, but i will add a few myself.

i feel hurt when my husband can't wear nail polish for 24 hrs. straight because he has to go to the gas station.

i feel hurt when my husband can't dress because somone who doesn't know is comming over.

i feel hurt when he is so depressed because he won't ever be able to lead the full life that he wants because this world is not an accepting world.

i feel hurt that when we finally do come out to our family and friends most of them won't understand and the people who told us they will always be there will now turn a shoulder and pretent like they don't know us.

i feel hurt that my husband feels trapped in his own body.

i could go on and on but i think this is enough.

[Carin's Wife GG]

If you are in that extremely small minority such that .... you know AND understand your self completely,AND you declare that to you SO well before you get seriously involved and/or married, AND she accepts AND she likes AND enjoys that piece of you , then maybe there is no hurt directly due to crossdressing. But for the rest of us in long term relationships ...

Relationships and marriage are about life dreams, some reasonable expectations, trust, comfort and security, a safe place where you do not have to be on the defensive, where you can relax from the outside world, and get to know you partner over the years. Of course long term relationship face challenges in its normal course, and strong relationships survive these through hard work and committment.

The hurt happens when we introduce crossdressing after the foundations of the relationahip have been established. The hurt comes from one partner singlehandedly threathening ALL of those basic components in one blow. We can not even give a good reason as to why. The hurt is in taking that safe haven and threatening it. The hurt is in forcing a change in her expectations. The hurt is in injectinig fears that were not there before. Our culture contributes in a negative way, but the CDer is the catalist. Yes, that person that she had counted on being there for her, is now FORCING her out of her comfort zone. And these are not issues that she can leave in the office, to go home to her safe place.

Someone said "Well thats life". Well, no that's not life as she new it, or expected it to be. Take it or leave it???? Girl that hurts her when she has put so much of her life into that relationship. Because it is saying that your "Game of Golf" is more important to you that your relationship. That is not how it is, but it is the message that is conveyed.

I am so thankful to my dear SO for having the strength and courage to withstand these hurts and to eventually be able to see how it really is.
:love: :love: :hugs: :hugs: :love: :hugs: :love: :hugs:

Carin

Carin

and I love you!



Louise.:love:

[kassi]

This is the problem. The man does not want you to walk away.

that is no justification for not telling you so. she should be given that choice. i hope you never have to experience being lied to like tamara was. cause then you would know the pain. wether he wanted her to leave or not he should have given her a chance to make that decision.

[Carin's Wife GG]

very valid point. i can think of many things to add to that list of how my husband probably feels, but i will add a few myself.

i feel hurt when my husband can't wear nail polish for 24 hrs. straight because he has to go to the gas station.

i feel hurt when my husband can't dress because somone who doesn't know is comming over.

i feel hurt when he is so depressed because he won't ever be able to lead the full life that he wants because this world is not an accepting world.

i feel hurt that when we finally do come out to our family and friends most of them won't understand and the people who told us they will always be there will now turn a shoulder and pretent like they don't know us.

i feel hurt that my husband feels trapped in his own body.

i could go on and on but i think this is enough.

puts another perspective on the issue that we sometimes forget.


Louise.

[KirstyChibiMoon]

doesn't think like you.


Louise.

and i'm glad i dont think like you...
i have fought in three wars... grenade, panama and desert storm...
i feel like i have earn'd the right to be who i want to be...
sorry if i offended anyone.. but that is life.

if i worried about what everyone else thought, i'd never leave the house.
<giggles>
relax, u'll live longer :hugs:

[AERIN]

The real hurt is the deceit and the lies we present by hiding our true selves. In Our defense though the world with the truth be known still would not accept us. What are we to do? So we make a life choice and live and die with it. Serious long term relationships are destroyed by the ignorance of others and our own desire to be who we are. No esay solution! The price we pay is the price we pay, so be it written, our destiny.

[Carin's Wife GG]

and i'm glad i dont think like you...
i have fought in three wars... grenade, panama and desert storm...
i feel like i have earn'd the right to be who i want to be...
sorry if i offended anyone.. but that is life.

if i worried about what everyone else thought, i'd never leave the house.
<giggles>
relax, u'll live longer :hugs:

(you don't even need to EARN it) to be who you are. I am just glad that my husband did take my very real feelings into account as she came to finding out who she was in the process. it would have been a shame given how much we love each other if she and I both had not made the huge effort it took to be where we are today, no?


Louise.

[battybattybats]

I agree entirely, its a universal right that does not need to be earned and should never be taken away.

[AERIN]

I would hardly call Grenada, Panama and Desert Storm wars, more like bully invasions that failed. Many of us here I am sure are veterans as well and don't use it as a pulpit for one feelings. The again some us only exist to delude ourselves, don't we? There's that "N" word again.

[Tree GG]

...ethical arguments so that I can determine on a higher level the possible arguments about right and wrong....

...So it really does seem that the crossdressing itself doesn't cause any hurt at all in and of itself, but because it is currently a socially unacceptable taboo, because it inspires people to question there own security and sexuality, because it is often done in secret because of the way it is generally received/perceived the reaction to it, the perceptions of it and the way it is often expressed are the causal factors of harm. The harm though is still genuine and real...

I'd like to add two thoughts to your summary.

#1) Right and wrong are not black-n-white. Quite frankly, the only moral high-ground that I can think of that would hold universally true is the Golden Rule. Treat others as you would like to be treated. This is hard, because when disagreements in perception of right & wrong arise, the tendancy is to "respond in kind" than to stay on the high ground.

#2) I'd agree that putting on the clothes, with respect to a singular, lone CDer hurts no one. When others are asked or expected to become involved we're back to point #1. Also, the greater good is fuzzy here. There is such a wide range of TGness (practices, if you will) that the only CD's that would "speak out" for social change, are the TS/transitioning group. That seems to be the only group that has a unity of purpose. The bulk of the CD community is part-time and really don't want to bring CDing to the forefront of their daily existance for many & numerous reasons.

I believe many of those reasons are noble and altruistic, but just as many are self-based. For an extreme example, how many CD's would stand up and say, "I CD to admire my appearance in the mirror, become sexually stimulated and satisfy that desire," or "I CD to go out and attract male attention for just the evening." Again, these may be extreme, exaggerated statements the probably only apply to the minority but how many CDers do these apply to? IMO, those concepts would endanger any united social change movement.

Just my :2c:

[Satrana]

I believe many of those reasons are noble and altruistic, but just as many are self-based.

Tree,

Everything everyone does is ultimately self-centered. The issue here is not about degrees of selfishness but rather what society deems normal - which of course is always in constant flux. Since normal cannot be defined every human belief and behavioral trait can be judged.

If we lived in a different society or a different period of time, our crossdressing would have marked us out as being of the "third sex" and we would have an elevated position in society, far from hiding in the closet, our transgenderness would have been celebrated and would be advantageous to us.

There always has been and always will be crossdressers. How much we are accepted in society has got very little to do with what we do as crossdressers and a hell of a lot to do with the ever changing beliefs and attitudes of others.

FTM crossdressers are essentially invisible to society and even the individuals themselves must likely do not recognize themselves as being crossdressers. Who is to say that a few decades into the future the same level of acceptance will also be granted to MTF crossdressers and forums like this will cease to exist.

[EmmaB GG]

The hurt stems from ignorance throughout our society, and the only group who can really help and change that ignorance are those who are a part of the group affected i.e. all of you girls.

Standing up to be counted takes courage as well as harsh honesty about oneself, but also takes compassion for those who are being educated - this is not meant to be an insult at all so please don't take offence, but the wider worlds image of MtoF CDing tends to lean towards the drag queen image, which, as I understand it, is meant to be a cutting parody of the woman (which actually offends me sometimes - why do they think pretending to be female in that way so funny? You see where you might be starting from?), so it needs a group to stand up and say "no, this is who we are, and why" - I don't know anything about how the gay community became more acceptable in mainstream society, but I'll bet there were some pioneers leading it and maybe their stories might give some sort of direction to the CDing community? Just a thought, am not saying CDing and being gay is the same, but it's a minority social group that has, on the whole, become integrated.

But it's the "why" explanation that is missing, and if that's missing there's nothing secure and factual to give basis to the understanding, which is what we all, in the 21st century, expect. I've seen and read many stories of people who've gone or intend to do through SRS. In NONE of these (and some are on credible programmes too) have I heard someone say "well, we're not sure how this comes about in some people, but we think ... " and then maybe the imbalance in hormones from birth or other theories could be presented. The world needs a possible factual reason before it can understand, only then can it start to accept & say "A ha! now I understand it a bit better..."

Batty (is that your shorthand name?!?) - I think your girlfriend has other issues that you need to be very careful with. Her threats imply a very insecure girl, and to be honest anything could have triggered it off, it's not necessarily CDing that caused her reaction. She lives in a world where her dreams of a boy/girl relationship are probably very clearly defined as they give her security that she so obviously needs, those have been 'shattered' (in her mind) and she doesn't know what to do. I expect she feels very lonely, isolated and confused, hence she doesn't know how to explain what going on in her head because she doesn't know herself.

She needs to talk to someone about her needs and expectations regardless of whether she's with you or not, so she can start to make decisions about her life - I don't think here is a good idea as there are too many things she could read about that I don't think she is strong enough to take on board right now.

Please don't theorise too much about why this hurts her, it just does, she has other things that she needs to deal with that might mean she understands herself a bit better and possibly then even you.

Sorry, too longwinded ...... I am a talks-too-much girl after all !!

Emx :hugs:

[aj_gg]

Batty (is that your shorthand name?!?) - I think your girlfriend has other issues that you need to be very careful with. Her threats imply a very insecure girl, and to be honest anything could have triggered it off, it's not necessarily CDing that caused her reaction. She lives in a world where her dreams of a boy/girl relationship are probably very clearly defined as they give her security that she so obviously needs, those have been 'shattered' (in her mind) and she doesn't know what to do. I expect she feels very lonely, isolated and confused, hence she doesn't know how to explain what going on in her head because she doesn't know herself.

She needs to talk to someone about her needs and expectations regardless of whether she's with you or not, so she can start to make decisions about her life - I don't think here is a good idea as there are too many things she could read about that I don't think she is strong enough to take on board right now.


I agree with you Emma. I was emotionally abused as a child, but I don't think my parents would have noticed that and most of it was brought on by myself from treatment of my peers. I never really learned how to express myself emotionally until I met my fiance. He helped create in me a stable emotional environment which also helped me to build up my self image.

When he told me that he was serious about his CDing it ripped all that out from underneath me. I didn't know how to react or how to cope. Maybe she just needs to find that security again and where it lies with you. That's what I'm working on with my SO and some days and weeks are better than others. Be the man she fell in love with while being the woman you need to be.

Hope I've helped.

[Casey Morgan]

But it's the "why" explanation that is missing, and if that's missing there's nothing secure and factual to give basis to the understanding, which is what we all, in the 21st century, expect. I've seen and read many stories of people who've gone or intend to do through SRS. In NONE of these (and some are on credible programmes too) have I heard someone say "well, we're not sure how this comes about in some people, but we think ... " and then maybe the imbalance in hormones from birth or other theories could be presented. The world needs a possible factual reason before it can understand, only then can it start to accept & say "A ha! now I understand it a bit better..."

No offense Emma, but many people believe things they have no facts to back up. Religion springs readily to mind. So I don't think it's really that people can't understand because they don't have a plausible explanation for it. The problem is we challenge things that people have come to believe are true. *We* are the proof of what we say. Don't forget, we're also coming up against people who say that we may have been born this way but it doesn't mean we have to act like that. So explanations can only go so far.

[quote]Sorry, too longwinded ...... I am a talks-too-much girl after all !!/QUOTE]

No need apologize for long posts. Some ideas can't be compressed into the "info nuggets" society seems to crave these days.

[Kate Simmons]

Power laced, information fortified nuggets with a rational punch. Interesting idea Casey. I'll have mine with fries, please.;) :hugs:

[Tamera]

Probably unless you have what is called an "OPEN RELATIONSHP" with your SO, "HURT" would not be involved.

But "HURT" can be when one has intimate relations with someone other than your SO.
or,
When your SO perceives you to be this "MASCULINE" male and now that she is aware of your transitions, has changed her views on this.

I'm sure there is more.
LOL
Tamera

[Satrana]

I don't know anything about how the gay community became more acceptable in mainstream society, but I'll bet there were some pioneers leading it and maybe their stories might give some sort of direction to the CDing community?


I think the gay community made a breakthrough into mainstream society when gay chareacters in TV and movies stopped being played as stereotypes and were instead portrayed as real three-dimensional individuals. A great example is Philadelphia with Tom Hanks playing a gay man facing discrimination both for being gay and for having AIDS. That film was a massive hit and moved the audience to understand that gays were just normal people.

Maybe it took the horror of the AIDS epidemic to make the media take gays seriously but thereafter gays were welcomed into liberal communities. Transsexuals have also had many moving and serious movies and TV shows made about them which has helped them considerably. Then again the general public can feel sympathic about "being trapped in the wrong body" and transsexuals still aim to maintain the binary gender system which is comforting to the general public.

On the other hand the public feel free to mock crossdressers since how can there be anything serious about a hetrosexual man wanting to wear a dress?
Don't think Tom Hanks or any other mainstream actor will be playing a crossdresser any time soon unless it is a comedy.

People take their cues from what they see in the media. If the media stopped using crossdressing stories to titillate and instead focused on the prejudice and intolerance we face, public attitudes would change for the better, at least in liberal circles.

[EmmaB GG]

Satrana - exactly what I meant - the stories we read and hear are presented as "entertainment" which is wrong! You wouldn't get a story like that about co-joined twins, for example, you'd get the humanistic angle!!

I really hope things change - for everyone's sake, your SO's as well as you!

Then, I reckon, a lot of the hurt that SO's feel will fade to a certain degree. There are still other influences I know, but this would help...

[Satrana]

Emma

I agree most of what hurts SOs is their own perception of a constitutes a man, and of course what everyone else thinks as well. Change the mainstream perception and most of the issues would disappear. We already know this because we can look at the dramatic changes in the female gender role and looks. Men don't have a problem with the clothes women wear, they have learned to see beyond the clothes.

However, for those cds who take this beyond simply crossdressing and actually emulate a woman and have an alter ego, that still remains a serious issue. When the person you know becomes a completely different person then that would scare me too.

Personally, I think the secretive closet existance fuels the need for some crossdressers to emulate women. Remove the intolerance and let the crossdresser just be himself and I suspect many will no longer feel motivated to pass as a woman if they could pass as themselves - a man expressing femininity. This would mean a complete, integrated personality.

Trying to pass as a woman is an act, maybe great fun, exciting, mind-expanding, but it is not the real you unless of course you do want to switch genders and live 24/7 as a woman. :2c:

[Kate Simmons]

You have a valid point, Satrana. It was definately scaring me that I seemed to be a different person, which is why I took the steps to integrate myself and my feelings. By ignoring (and thereby removing it for myself) the intolerance, I'm enjoying expressing my feminine feelings as a man and am much, much happier than I used to be.:happy: Sal

[KewTnCurvy GG]

A bhuddist friend of mine suggested that it comes from the SO having an expectation or desire of their husbands perceived masculinity or 'normality' and that the thwarting of this desire is what produces pain, but that that is a pain that allows for growth of the persons awareness and therefore is a good and positive pain to inflict on someone.

Another view I've heard is that accepting the free will of others is hard, the closer someone is to you the more you want to have a say in their choices especially if you feel those choices are bad ones and that it always hurts when someone close to you does something that you don't want them to do.

Then it has been suggested to me that there is a greater pressure to conform among women (personally I suspect it might be worse amongst men) and that being forced to have a life less 'normal' causes this pain.


It sounds like you're trying to get some personal issues addressed/answered. Unfortunately, as with anything human nature is complicated. I think your Buddhist friends analysis comes closest to what is the average reason for why accepting TG/CD's is such an issue. However, I don't know if I agree with the second reason of needing to have a say in the choices of your SO as you are closer to them. Just seems to simplistic an explanation; as I said, human nature is complicated.

As for your statement about a greater pressure for women to conform among other women; I don't agree. I have not experienced this.

What I do think is we're a society that likes labels; it helps keep life orderly. I'm not saying I like labels or that I think they're good, I just think it's the way our society is. We have lots of labels: Man, woman, male, female, Republican, Democrat, Stud, ****, Masculine, Feminine, Waif, Wallflower, Facist, Socialist, Liberal..........the list goes on. I also think that our society has a very clear delineation between what is male and what is female. In general, there are only two genders acknowledged: female and male. What gets put on your birth certificate? What is one of the first things you ask a friend when they have a baby: "Is it a boy or a grrl?"

Now, you could put value judgements on the fact we are even interested in the issue of whether a child is a male or female but to me that is fruitless. Nature created male and female with a few rare exceptions. I suppose, in the human realm of life; CD/TG'ism has become one of those exceptions. Note though that I say "exceptions"; it's not the rule but the exception. So don't ask or ever expect in our life time that the issue of gender will become obsolete; it will not. Perpetuation of the species depends on there being male and females to procreate. As long as that is necessary then there will always be a division between male and female. And that is almost universal throughout the animal kingdom as well as for humans.

That said, the question--as well as many MANY others here--reminds me of a quote from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. There is a part of the book where he talks of "Mu" or the idea of "unask the question". http://uselesstree.wordpress.com/tag/architects/robert-pirsig/

Kew's 2