Feminism

[battybattybats]

I'm wondering what everyone here thinks about feminism and sexism. What you think that means to Cds, SOs and men in general.

I recently heard a report mentioned that 70% of depictions of men in the media were negative, while also there is still inequality in equal pay which does suggest to me that there is still a lot of problems with this in society.

[danielle_from_cal]

I think that my crossdressing helps me to appreciate women more than is typical. I specify the salaries of a lot of people and I can assure you that no woman has a lower salary than any man in our organization (for doing the same job). And women are offered the same opportunities as men. When it comes to equality in the workplace, a woman could not work for a more un-biased person. I encourage this same attitude with many of my colleagues in other firms. Women may still be a bit behind the curve when it comes to equal pay, but things are improving and I will continue to do what I can to help.

[noname]

I'm wondering what everyone here thinks about feminism and sexism. What you think that means to Cds, SOs and men in general.

I wish feminism was about equality. Unfortunately it's not. It's kind of like how women enjoy a free country but are not required to serve in the military. Young men must sign up to die if needed for a draft. If they were truely about equality they would be fighting hard to require females to sign up for the selective service. Just go to http://www.sss.gov/ and look at the picture of people across the top of the page. Seems to me they need some diversity.


I recently heard a report mentioned that 70% of depictions of men in the media were negative, while also there is still inequality in equal pay which does suggest to me that there is still a lot of problems with this in society.

Women may not get paid the same. But from experience I can tell you I was denied a job because I was not a women. This administrative job encouraged women and minorities to apply. Near the end of the interview the lady leaned forward and said, look.... were looking to create diversity here and I want you to understand that. I recieved a rejection letter via email less than 18 hours later.

Another example was an IT job I applied for. I was denied dispite my educataion and 5 years of experience because "they couldn't afford me" ( I would have taken any pay level ) They hired a women with no IT experience because they could pay her less I imagine. Of course less experience = less pay. But paying less was the key here. I suspect they felt a women would not want more pay or pursuit a "career" in IT.

So in this last case who really lost out? Ahh... gotta love over a year of unemployment.

[trannie T]

Despite Affirmative Action and Diversity programs women are still treated unfairly in the workplace. There are a lot of advantages in being a woman only part time.

[NatalieGirl]

The inequality of pay between men and women is a complete myth. There have been a number of studies that have debunked that.

Once you control for the number of years experience and the type of jobs worked, women earn slightly *more* than men on average. Not less.

[GACountrygal]

I wish feminism was about equality. Unfortunately it's not. It's kind of like how women enjoy a free country but are not required to serve in the military. Young men must sign up to die if needed for a draft. If they were truely about equality they would be fighting hard to require females to sign up for the selective service. Just go to http://www.sss.gov/ and look at the picture of people across the top of the page. Seems to me they need some diversity.


Well, this is one point we agree on. Unfortunately, a lot of people are not ready to see a woman in a war zone. Look at Pvt Piestewa (I went to basic with her) and PFC Lynch. Peopel freaked out over that whole situation. IF they were men, not a second glance would have been passed over them. :rolleyes: Gotta love a double standard :thumbsdn:
I can assure you though, if women would be able to sign up for the selective service, Id be the first one on the list. I've already served, and would be more then willin to serve again.
Nic

[Satrana]

Yup I agree with Natalie, the pay inequality is a myth. It used to be true decades ago when women did not make up 50% of graduates and 50% of the workforce, but that is no longer the case.

The salary inequality gap is a classic piece of feminist propaganda repeated every year to give reason for their existence. People take it as fact because of this constant rehashing. The falsehood is created because of the use of statistics - namely looking at the annual salaries of men and women which does indeed show men earn 30% more than women, but the statistics also show men work 30% longer hours than women, so salaries based on an hourly basis is the same for men and women.

Further, most people work in environments which have fixed pay scales and with public and private watchdogs, and the threat of legal suits over discrimination, the idea that employers can get away with paying women 30% less is unrealistic. It does happen but in small numbers. How many women do you actually know who earn 30% less than a man for doing the same job?

Lastly the simple logic of supply and demand repudiates this idea. Why would I employ a man when I can get a woman to do the same job for 30% less? I would be more profitable and be more competitive and would grab more market share. If I employed women, then my competitors would have to do the same or else they would go out of business. So everyone would be employing women and men would be unemployed. The salaries of women would increase and the salaries of men would decrease until they reached parity.

This myth is a classic example of what feminism has been about for decades - the advancement of women over men. The overall negativity towards men you noted is also part and parcel of the propaganda that militant feminists have repeated ad nuseum since the 1970s and has only poisoned the relationships between men and women.

The quest for true equality for both genders got lost for a long time but is now slowly re-emerging because of the increasing liberalization of society and the trend towards individualism which inherently seeks equality.

Feminism was a revolution that started off so well but ultimately got hijacked by fundamentalists. It is also out-of-date because it does not address or concern itself with the problems of men and so is fundamentally sexist in nature. We have reached a stage in the development of our societies where it is wrong to only address issues of one gender and ignore the other. The longer feminism is the sole dominating voice on gender matters, the more skewed our society will become.

Feminism has done nothing to help MTF crossdressers because we are men so our needs and concerns are irrelevant. Worse, the feminist establishment is sexist to the core. They will not even admit MTF transsexuals into their house since they are not "real" women.

What is really needed is a new gender equality movement which covers everyone - male female and transgendered.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Yea, it's horrible isn't it.
We are such pathetic, sniveling, weak, stupid, opportunistic failures...........
You have to wonder why anyone would ever want to emulate us in the first place.
Kew

[Joy Carter]

I have no problem with women in the work place. I have had some really great working relationships with women. BUT I had one who made me want to quit, after she repeatedly told my boss that I picked on her. She was just unwilling to do any work and pushed it off on to me. I refused to speak to her for years because of it.

[Carin's Wife GG]

Yea, it's horrible isn't it.
We are such pathetic, sniveling, weak, stupid, opportunistic failures...........
You have to wonder why anyone would ever want to emulate us in the first place.
Kew

LOL.



Louise.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

How about some facts:
http://www.iwpr.org/States2004/index.htm
http://www.freeworldacademy.com/globalleader/gender.htm
http://www.ilo.org/public/german/region/eurpro/bonn/download/women.pdf
http://www.demos.org/inequality/facts.cfm
http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2005/presskit/factsheets/facts_gender.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

[Alice Torn]

I have to agree with noname, from experience. I also have heard, from reliable sources, that 60% of university, and college students, are females. Sixty percent! I have noticed, more, and more doctors, lawyers, and veterinarians, are females, which, I don't have a big problem with, but, I have haeard a lady, who speaks, out, that says, that women on average, make almost the same, now. Also, I go to singles dances, and I have met a lot of people. The single women, I have found, mostly middle aged, are doing much better, than most single men. I heard on the radio, that single women outearn single men, from a reliable source. I, and a female friend of mine, both took a test, for a state job. I got a better score, than she did, but, she was hired. A number of years later, she was fired, because of attitude, laziness, inability, to do the job. I never could get on, have been under the poverty level, working poor, and at 52, have never owned a home, drive a 31 year old car. She got state disability, has an acre, and a house. I was rejected for social security disability, for a lifelong illness, I struggle with, each day. I DON'T HATE WOMEN! I LOVE THEM, BIGTIME, BIGTIME! I am turned on by a true lady, with savvy, who carries herself, with confidence, and poise. That is what I imitate, dressed up! But, I also, decry, the battle of the sexes, MADE WORSE, and with FALSE PROPAGANDA, by the DISINGENUOUS FEMINIST MOVEMENT, which really hates feminity, and is very sexist, causing greater inequality, in the long run, and hard feelings. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF, GOOD ADVICE FOR MILITANT SEXISTs, ON EITHER SIDE.

[noname]

I also have heard, from reliable sources, that 60% of university, and college students, are females. Sixty percent!

It is true, and there is a reason for it. College costs are high, very high. I believe it is a combination of college being made more affordable to women through female only scholorships, and parents more apt to let their daugter live at home while going to school.


I, and a female friend of mine, both took a test, for a state job. I got a better score, than she did, but, she was hired.

I believe they go on a point based system, so even though your score may have been higher, her being female gave her enough points to surpass you. It may also have been they needed to get a certain number of minority ( how GG's got minority status I'll never know ) employees and her score was good enough.

It reminds me of a job interview I had for an ITS 4 ( Information Technology Specialist 4 ). One lady on the interview panel was an ITS5. During the interview I mentioned the man pages on unix based systems. She had no idea what I was talking about. For those not familiar with unix the man pages is the system manual ( hence man ) something a novice is taught to use. So here we have an ITS 5 who has no clue on something so elementry. I personally believe in hiring the most qualified person for the job, and I don't believe affirmative action accomplishes that.

A solution is not to attack women, but for men to speak up and address mens issues. Unfortunately when men do speak up, it generally falls on deaf ears. Why does it fall on deaf ears? Well, that is a whole nother subject.

[kerrianna]

Yea, it's horrible isn't it.
We are such pathetic, sniveling, weak, stupid, opportunistic failures...........
You have to wonder why anyone would ever want to emulate us in the first place.
Kew

zinnnnnng! :devil: Good one Kew! :thumbsup: Well, some people are asking for that.

Don't get me started....I have had this discussion for years and years with people who refuse to get some background information and empathy before they start bitchin'. I am so tired of it as I imagine a lot of others are.

I'll just say this: feminism rose as movement for a reason - a whole bunch of reasons actually. Some things have gotten better, many haven't. Oppression and inequality hurts everybody. We're not fully compassionate loving beings when we allow or excuse it.

Friends, try not allow yourself into media or peer-induced knee jerk reactions about things. Think them through and put yourself in other people's shoes. After all that is what we keep saying we like to do. :happy:

[KewTnCurvy GG]

zinnnnnng! :devil: Good one Kew! :thumbsup: I'll just say this: feminism rose as movement for a reason - a whole bunch of reasons actually. Some things have gotten better, many haven't. Oppression and inequality hurts everybody. We're not fully compassionate loving beings when we allow or excuse it.

Friends, try not allow yourself into media or peer-induced knee jerk reactions about things. Think them through and put yourself in other people's shoes. After all that is what we keep saying we like to do. :happy:

I agree with what you say. There are, as with all things, good and bad points. What I'm hearing here from other folks is conjecture, speculation and emotional rhetoric--not facts!

*climbs off soapbox*
Kew

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Well said, Kerrianna.

[Brianna Lovely]

Putting all the emotions and equal pay ideas aside, I like to look at economic reality.

Although I think equal rights for women is a wonderful thing, I wonder if American society, would have been better off without it.

No, I'm not being sexist, just trying to look at things, with an open mind.

So, let's look at what has really happened.
We all know that women wear pants, but why? Is it really because they're "practical", or is it that women have been told, for decades, that they are not "sex objects"? Is this why today's women don't wear dresses, skirts, makeup, have their hair done, they don't want to be seen as attractive?

Another thought.
In the mid 1960's the average family had a working father and a wife who stayed home and took care of the children. Today, over 60% of children are "latch-key children", where both parents work and are not at home when the children get out of school.

When you had the husband working and the wife staying at home, "Joe's Shoe Store" charged $5.00 for a pair of shoes. Then wives started to work, and "Joe" said, "Hey, Bob and Mary Smith are making two incomes, so I'll charge $10.00 for a pair of shoes, they can afford it".

So, today it's not a choice or a right for a woman to work, but an economic necessity. Remember, that the candy bar that cost $0.05 in 1965 now costs $0.75, that's a 1500% increase, and someone has to pay for it.
The Social Security Benefit in 1965 was $95.00 and in 2005 was $930.00, an increase of 1000%, falling 500% behind the real cost of everyday expenses.

In 1965 a new Ford car, full-size, 4 door, V-8 engine, cost $2,000.00 or 20% of a workers $10,000.00 yearly income. Today a new car cost $30,000.00, so the same job would have to pay $150,000.00 a year to be 20% of their income. How many people do you know, who make at least $150K?

I think it's a heck of a price to pay, to be able to say, "I can wear pants, if I want to".

[Satrana]

Yea, it's horrible isn't it.
We are such pathetic, sniveling, weak, stupid, opportunistic failures...........
You have to wonder why anyone would ever want to emulate us in the first place.
Kew

Crossdressers are trying to emulate feminists?:D

Many feminist "facts" have been debunked by feminists themsleves like Christina Hoff Sommers has been doing for the past 15 years.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Crossdressers are trying to emulate feminists?:D

Many feminist "facts" have been debunked by feminists themsleves like Christina Hoff Sommers has been doing for the past 15 years.
Crossdresser, MtF, are trying to emulate women and women are the what feminism is predicated upon.

Christina Hoff Sommers is one woman who has spoken out about what has become known as "mainstream feminism". She is one person. However, I don't know how one can "debunk" facts. Facts are simply that.
Kew

[Kate Simmons]

Bottom line is I treat everyone equally regardless of stature, race, sex or beliefs. Seems to work out better for me in the long run. While these concepts may exist in the "real" world, they are more or less moot to me. I deal with everyone on an individual basis as a person. I find out too much is missed when I attempt to catagorize someone according to a "standard".

[KewTnCurvy GG]

We all know that women wear pants, but why? Is it really because they're "practical", or is it that women have been told, for decades, that they are not "sex objects"? Is this why today's women don't wear dresses, skirts, makeup, have their hair done, they don't want to be seen as attractive?
You're saying that we should look at women as sex objects?
And that women today do not wear dresses, skirts, makeup, have their hair done and do not want to be seen as attractive?
First of all, I do not want to be viewed as a sex object. What is desirable about being seen that way? Even in the men I choose to date, intelligence and who the person is ways far more in my mind as what attracts me to them than their looks (Yes, Vicky, I think you're adorable; I've said that many times!)



Another thought.
In the mid 1960's the average family had a working father and a wife who stayed home and took care of the children. Today, over 60% of children are "latch-key children", where both parents work and are not at home when the children get out of school.
Yes, funny thing about time; the more things change the more they stay the same. Things have changed, always will. Change is the only constant in the world. Why is this so hard to grasp?
And latch-key children are attributed to women going to work? That's the only reason? Funny, I have several friends that one parent stays at home all the time.



When you had the husband working and the wife staying at home, "Joe's Shoe Store" charged $5.00 for a pair of shoes. Then wives started to work, and "Joe" said, "Hey, Bob and Mary Smith are making two incomes, so I'll charge $10.00 for a pair of shoes, they can afford it".
Can you say oversimplistic, reductionist reasoning?
And what is the basic economic principle that determines the worth of an object?
Anyone? Supply and Demand. Economics 101 Thank you!



So, today it's not a choice or a right for a woman to work, but an economic necessity. Remember, that the candy bar that cost $0.05 in 1965 now costs $0.75, that's a 1500% increase, and someone has to pay for it.
The Social Security Benefit in 1965 was $95.00 and in 2005 was $930.00, an increase of 1000%, falling 500% behind the real cost of everyday expenses.

In 1965 a new Ford car, full-size, 4 door, V-8 engine, cost $2,000.00 or 20% of a workers $10,000.00 yearly income. Today a new car cost $30,000.00, so the same job would have to pay $150,000.00 a year to be 20% of their income. How many people do you know, who make at least $150K?

I think it's a heck of a price to pay, to be able to say, "I can wear pants, if I want to".
It was an economic necessity that I work as I was determined I would NEVER be dependent on ANYONE but myself. And that I needed to be able to be self-sufficient first and foremost.
And, so, am I to understand that it's a woman's lust to wear pants that has corrupted it all. ****ed it up for the world. Gee, if this doesn't sound like the opening of Pandora's Box cuz Eve ate the effing apple!
KEW

[Brianna Lovely]

Cool your panties!
Yes, I like to keep things, simple.
But, I think there's a big difference in someone wanting to work and someone being "forced" to work.

I personaly don't think it's an advance, to have the average family carrying $15,000 in credit card debt.

And, being a very independant person myself, I agree a 100% with your freedom and independance, good for you.

[kerrianna]

:rolleyes: :bonk: :Pfft:

[Satrana]

Crossdresser, MtF, are trying to emulate women and women are the what feminism is predicated upon.

Christina Hoff Sommers is one woman who has spoken out about what has become known as "mainstream feminism". She is one person. However, I don't know how one can "debunk" facts. Facts are simply that.
Kew

But most women do not define themselves as feminists precisely because of what the feminist movement became. Nor have I observed crossdressers wishing to emulate the behavior and thoughts of the feminist establishment.
What I do see are crossdressers wanting equal gender rights for all, with equal emphasis on male issues, which is not what feminism has been fighting for.

Sommers is one of many who have debunked inequal pay. She is one of the most prominent because her books revealed this and other myths and became international best sellers.

Facts are based on statistics which can be easily skewed. It is a fact that statistics based upon annual salaries show a gender gap, it is also a fact that statistics based upon hourly rates show no gender gap. Guess which one the feminist establishment decided to use and ignored the hours worked.

Since the facts can be used to support both sides of the argument, we have to turn to direct observation and common sense. I don't know of any company or any woman in my entire life who was paid less for doing the same job as a male colleague. That is my own observation. Secondly, it would be commercial and legal suicide for any company operating in today's highly competitive, highly regulated environment to pay men 30% more when they could and should hire women instead. This is complete nonsense and it does not happen except in isolated cases. But then I am sure we can find isolated cases of men being discriminated agaisnt in female managed companies.

Feminism still has important issues to pursue but there are *some* inequalities that disappered years ago but it is in their interests to continue flogging them because issues like inequal pay are the ones which keep women angry and motivated which in turn keeps the feminist movement alive.

If you want to get rid of gender bias, then you have to tackle the root cause namely how boys and girls are raised to alter the gender dynamics of future generations. This would help everybody including crossdressers.

This thread is not about feminism itself but how feminism has impacted upon crossdressers and their relationships. I cannot think of any direct benefit that crossdressers have obtained except for the general concept that it is good to challenge the status quo and break out of gender stereotypes, although this concept does not seem to have had much impact on men's lives or how women view men who challenge the gender stereotype.

[kerrianna]

Satrana, you must live in a different world than me. My experiences with female friends and colleagues is totally different.

They DO get paid less generally. They don't have the same opportunities. In some places in the world women are held in the same esteem as livestock. Things are better in the western world, but that is ONLY because women got together to do something about it and found male allies who agree. We agree with your fundamental principle - all should be equal - but it's only equal when it IS. Not when men have decided they've given enough ground. The same holds true with racism.

To change inequality the side with privelage MUST give up ground enough to level the field, not just make it look like they are doing something. That hasn't happened with women's rights, it hasn't happened with racial rights, it hasn't happened in the working sector (it did for awhile until multinationals realized there were a lot of desperate hungry people who would work for next to nothing).

Social movements happen because enough people who are being ground under finally get organised and try to change things. We're trying to do that in our TG world too. A common outcome is the movement makes some headway, some feathers are ruffled, some people feel bad, and then everyone says "what's all the fuss about? You got what you wanted? And look what we had to give up!"

A social movement may impact individuals directly and unfairly, but oppression does the same, and to a lot more individuals.

I'm going to stop here. I'm about to turn into a major bitch about this. It's a sore point I have. I for one am a feminist crossdresser and I am proud of it.

It's no wonder I want to be a girl. I just don't get guys some days. :straightface:

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Funny, my experience, if that's what we're basing some of this is on has been totally different.
I have worked in more than one establishment where a man was paid more than his female counterparts.
I have seen more than one man promoted when in fact he should have been fired for grossly inappropriate conduct and incompetence.
I have, also, seen more than one woman fired when she did not deserve to be fired.
I have been the recipient of sexual harassment but had my supervisor (a woman) do nothing about it. And, the individual was a scary person with a criminal and drug history (and I was working at a large, public university at the time). Btw, said individual blew his brains out one day at his mommy's house--nice.
I have worked in jobs that men would generally not work in because the pay is low and the work is emotionally draining (i.e., health and human services) for over 25 plus years.
I have CLAWED my way to the top. The first time I broke over 10K a year was my first year of grad school 1991.
There is NO DOUBT in my mind that gender inequality exists in the work place. I've seen it; I've experienced it. Women DO NOT earn what men earn, dollar for dollar. And fields dominated by women continue to be MUCH lower in pay than fields dominated by men. Examples: teaching, social work, child care, home health aides, nursing, hair dressing, nail technicians.
Name ONE equivalent field where men are paid a paltry amount for their hard work? And tell me what man (though, yes there are few) are willing to undertake the tasks of cleaning bedpans, scrubbing floors, cleaning toilets. Are you telling me these fields are dominated by men? Who get equal pay to the women who work in these fields? If so, you're on crack.
We will never agree on this topic. And it's threads like this that I consider defecting to other websites where the ability to have true intellectual discourse exists.
Kew

*gets several bandaids for her brain as it is bleeding profusely now*

[Satrana]

They DO get paid less generally. They don't have the same opportunities. In some places in the world women are held in the same esteem as livestock. Things are better in the western world, but that is ONLY because women got together to do something about it and found male allies who agree.

Kerrianna,

This is my last word on this before others start using personal insults. Naturally I am talking about the Western nations not the rest of the world where women often are disadvantaged. Thats a taken.

We seem to be confusing what the feminists argue and what the statistics show. Feminists argue that women get paid 30% less for doing the same job as a male worker. This is wrong and easily disproven.

For feminists to use annual income charts as proof of unequal pay is false. If women across the board were indeed being discriminated against in such an obvious and profound way then there woukld be millions of discrimination cases going through our courts at any given point in time. And everyone would personally know many, many women who were being discriminated against on their salaries.

What is true is that there are more women in lower paying jobs than there are men. However where is the discrimination in this? Men are not forcing women into these jobs, women choose to apply for them. Why do fewer men not choose to apply for them - because a man is valued for the money he makes, this is an important indicator is his manhood, so from his point of view he would rather stay unemployed and hold out for a better job. Many women though will more likely accept a low paying job to earn money, they are not career orientated and their value as women is not linked to their income. Of course they would like to earn more, but there is not the same gender inhibition that men experience.

Now things are changing, women are becoming more career orientated but that does not change the fact that men are not intersted in low paying jobs except of course if they are a route to a higher paying job. So what is happening now is low paying jobs are being outsourced to third world workers who certainly do earn less.

You cannot blame men if women choose to settle for low paying jobs. That is an individual choice. You can however change the gender system which conditions men to value work and careers so highly often to the detriment of family life. Once there is equality in career expectations between the genders, once men are no longer valued so much for their income, then you will see an equilization in the genders across low and high paying jobs.

It is the gender system, how we bring up boys and girls, that produces different job expectations and different approaches to work and family life. Legislation can and has stopped discrimination but our gender system, especially that for men, remains largely intact.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

For feminists to use annual income charts as proof of unequal pay is false. If women across the board were indeed being discriminated against in such an obvious and profound way then there woukld be millions of discrimination cases going through our courts at any given point in time. And everyone would personally know many, many women who were being discriminated against on their salaries.

What is true is that there are more women in lower paying jobs than there are men. However where is the discrimination in this? Men are not forcing women into these jobs, women choose to apply for them. Why do fewer men not choose to apply for them - because a man is valued for the money he makes, this is an important indicator is his manhood, so from his point of view he would rather stay unemployed and hold out for a better job. Many women though will more likely accept a low paying job to earn money, they are not career orientated and their value as women is not linked to their income. Of course they would like to earn more, but there is not the same gender inhibition that men experience.

Now things are changing, women are becoming more career orientated but that does not change the fact that men are not intersted in low paying jobs except of course if they are a route to a higher paying job. So what is happening now is low paying jobs are being outsourced to third world workers who certainly do earn less.

You cannot blame men if women choose to settle for low paying jobs. That is an individual choice. You can however change the gender system which conditions men to value work and careers so highly often to the detriment of family life. Once there is equality in career expectations between the genders, once men are no longer valued so much for their income, then you will see an equilization in the genders across low and high paying jobs.



All I can say is "WOW!"

Kew

[SissyJackie]

Yea, it's horrible isn't it.
We are such pathetic, sniveling, weak, stupid, opportunistic failures...........
You have to wonder why anyone would ever want to emulate us in the first place.
Kew

I love You Kew :love: I know exactly why I emulate you.

:2c: Oh and about another reply by someone else. Salaries are not based on time. Hourly wages are however comparing the number of hours between the genders might suggest to me that women out perform men. :heehee:
I guess I revealed I am TS :o ..Naaaah, not embarrassed but proud of it. :thumbsup:

[Tree GG]

Yea, it's horrible isn't it.
We are such pathetic, sniveling, weak, stupid, opportunistic failures...........
You have to wonder why anyone would ever want to emulate us in the first place.
Kew

Funny :heehee:

However, on the double income thing there is some economic research (based on supply & demand) that the two "full wage" incomes of the past 20 or 30 years is a large contributing factor to excessive inflation and self-perpetuation of the system. In the book "Two Income Trap" they surmise that the demand for more affluent suburban, housing exceeded supply as yuppies entered the work force. With two income, professional families, the prices could go up and up for housing and services. Who benefitted? Banks, insurance companies, land developers. Once the financial committment is made, there's the trap. Both partners must continue to work to afford the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed, even when the kids arrive.

That is just one consideration of inflation and two income families and certainly not the only factor. HOWEVER, I know 3 women personally who were abandoned - yes abandoned - by their husbands just because he didn't want to be married anymore, or found someone younger, or was a lunatic. Regardless, all 3 ended up in bankruptcy - but the husband's did not. Two of the 3 had school age children to care for and rec'd no, zero, child support. (The x husband changed jobs so frequently the gov't couldn't keep track of him long enough to garnish wages OR the employer would pay under the table) or the county gov't just couldn't get around to it. Had these women not been employed, think how much worse their situations would have been.

One of these husbands - who is a fireman by the way & suppose to be a hero - ran up $26,000 in credit card debt that he obtained 6 mos before he left (not in a joint named account but my friend still was responsible for 1/2 the debt).

I'm seeing some pretty big inequalities in those situations.

[Stephenie S]

I will echo, "WOW"!!

I have not read such BS in many years. One would assume that comming from a group that seems to want to emulate women, there would be a bit more understanding of what it means to be a woman.

Perhaps the reason so many on this forum want to be women only part time is because, deep down, they DO know what a short end of the stick women really get in this society.

Listen to the GGs who have answered this thread. They, after all, are the ONLY ones with any real experience here.

Kew has pleaded for some understanding of FACTS rather than emotional retoric. Please listen to her.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Alice Torn]

"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women RULE over them. O my people. they which lead you, cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.....What mean you, that you beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor.... Moreover, the Lord sayeth, Because the daughters of Zion are HAUGHTY.....ISAIAH 3:12, 15, 16. Written about 2500 yrs ago, sounds a bit like today. Personally, like I have said, I have no problem, with equal work, equal pay. Justice knows know color, or gender, but, common sense is nor so common. I agree with Salandra, that each person, is a unique individual, with needs, and rights, but, rights are abused, with responsibility, and propriety. I was a gravedigger, for three years, digging with pick, and handshovel. There were not lines of females, trying to get my job, and, it was only $4.00 an hour, just above min. wage.

[SissyJackie]

I will echo, "WOW"!!

I have not read such BS in many years. One would assume that comming from a group that seems to want to emulate women, there would be a bit more understanding of what it means to be a woman.

Perhaps the reason so many on this forum want to be women only part time is because, deep down, they DO know what a short end of the stick women really get in this society.

Listen to the GGs who have answered this thread. They, after all, are the ONLY ones with any real experience here.

Kew has pleaded for some understanding of FACTS rather than emotional retoric. Please listen to her.

Lovies,
Stephenie

I see a parallel between the varied opinions in this thread and the thread questioning CD’submissive tendencies.

If we were all to accept the labels TG/CD as just one who dresses in as the opposite gender and a TS/TG as one who truly is Transgendered regardless of procedures and/or surgery to correct it then maybe in that thread the questions should be… Which are you CD/TV or TS/TG? And then “Are you submissive and to what degree” The reason I bring up submissiveness here is because the core of submission is total RESPECT and complete TRUST. Many men have a tough time with this and I see opinions of men who just happen to wear a dress once in a while.

I am TS by the above definition and have struggled with it for more than a half a century. I would wish that life on no one but at the same time I am proud to be TS and to have a good long hard look at both sides.

Generally women’s’ verbal, analytical skills and work ethic exceed those of their male peers at work and still the Glass Ceiling and the Good Old Boys clubs still exist in the workplace and many men including GM here have a difficult time coming to grips with that. To be fair many men here and in the general population can deal with it but the Testosterone factor is still there.

To say that there is complete equality in the workforce is hogwash and indefensible. We don’t need to post hundreds of internet links on either side of the fence because a lot of the stuff is subjective instead of objective anyway. There are exceptions to the rule and there are some women that do not pull their fair share but there are men that behave the same.

Talk about a microcosm of society in this forum. In two topics I see the GG’s TS/TG vs. the Men regardless of what skirt length they chose for the day.. Sorry but just my :2c: and no reason for anyone to get their panties in a knot. :D

[Elizabeth Ann]

I'm a bit astounded by this thread. I'm very new here, but I didn't expect in a forum like this to see such blindness to the difficult position of women in society. It is hard to believe that anyone who functions in this society cannot see the struggle they face.

Sure, there has been progress in the workplace, but does anyone really believe that women have an equal footing in society? Its going to take generations of changes in attitudes, traditions, social institutions, and laws.

Anyone remember that old riddle: Father and son in an accident. Father is DOA but son is rushed to operating room. Surgeon takes one look and says, "I can't operate on this man. He's my son." How can this be? Answer below.

During the hight of feminism, I remember once remarking to my wife that I couldn't understand why women were not more radical than they were. She replied, "that's because you were not raised as a woman."

Answer to the riddle: The surgeon is a woman.

[Christina Nicole]

This topic is a lose-lose proposition. Most of the analysis of the data is incomplete as the researchers do not document their assumptions, thus the reader either accepts the results at face value, has to engage in the difficult task of norming the data, or worse using the data 'raw.' Data of this sort is also difficult to fully norm quantitatively as there isn't quite enough data, so some of the norming is done quantitatively, which is subject to the prejudges of the analysts. The analysis of this subject alone would be a master's thesis in statistics and I'm not doing the work for free.

What's left after the data is rendered suspect what remains are anecdotal stories, which are misleading since the sample set is skewed. The other remainder is akin to 'religious fever,' which you can't argue against.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Dasein9]

I, like a few others here, am astounded by the utter lack of understanding of the female/feminine experience that some here demonstrate by their words.

Christina's correct. Not only do most analysts not record their assumptions, but they also frequently don't even recognise that they have them.

Like the assumption that legal equality is all that feminism's about, for instance, and the assumption that what feminists want is to be more like men. Implicit in much of this discussion is the rather odd notion that the male/masculine experience is some kind of benchmark toward which women are aiming. For many FTM's that may be the case. For female feminists, it's a great deal more complicated than that.

[marie354]

My SO has observed this in the nursing field. A male nurse, just out of school started off making more than she was and she had been there for 5 years.

[battybattybats]

Wow, not the reaction I thought this thread would get.

I want to say a few things.
I feel that I am a feminist and I do see much disadvantage to women where I am. I am also a masculinist and I see a lot of disadvantage towards men where I am. I do not see that it is at all important who is more disadvantaged as all of the disadvantage is sexist and should be universally opposed.

I hear lots of sexist comments from young women over the last 10 years, 'because I'm a girl' is a phrase I've heard countless times to denote special privaledge in all sorts of arenas though most often in social situations or relationships. I see lots of t-shirts with logos saying things like 'boys are stupid' and so on. Their main comment if I pull them up on it is that as men have discriminated against women in the past then they deserve it! There is also a much lower unemployment rate amongst young women in the area BUT... they are all service and counter jobs! This is still sexism though isnt it.

Sure there are subsets in any ideology that are extreme to the point of nonsense and they can hurt the cause.
Surely we all should be ready to fight discrimination and inequality wherever they are if we want to not be discriminated against or to be judghed unequal?

[noname]

Many diverse comments here formed from personal experience.


Their main comment if I pull them up on it is that as men have discriminated against women in the past then they deserve it! There is also a much lower unemployment rate amongst young women in the area BUT... they are all service and counter jobs! This is still sexism though isnt it.

Some job is better than no job. I'm not saying that women taking counter jobs is a good thing. Certainly sometimes we have to take what we can get, but that doesn't mean it's fair. ( I say some job vs. no job as someone who's been looking for work since Feb 06. This can happen when you have a good job and your specialized. )

I would like to add that you don't see many women out digging ditches, fixing sewer lines, or roofing homes. Nor do you see women activist fighting to get women these positions. It's kind of like how the media plays up how women are not taking up science and engeering jobs and how that can be fixed. It's funny you don't see the same initiative to get men doing dangerous jobs inside and working at a counter, or why more men are not taking adminstrative jobs.

Just saying.


Surely we all should be ready to fight discrimination and inequality wherever they are if we want to not be discriminated against or to be judghed unequal?

Agreed, any discrimination is a bad deal for anyone, and to punish one group for the sins of another generation is wrong.

Peace love and happiness. :happy:

[KewTnCurvy GG]

I would like to add that you don't see many women out digging ditches, fixing sewer lines, or roofing homes. Nor do you see women activist fighting to get women these positions. It's kind of like how the media plays up how women are not taking up science and engeering jobs and how that can be fixed. It's funny you don't see the same initiative to get men doing dangerous jobs inside and working at a counter, or why more men are not taking adminstrative jobs

There may not be "many" but there are those advocating and assisting women to get those types of jobs you refer to:


http://www.wisecampaign.org.uk/

http://www.hardhattedwomen.org/ABOUTUS/history.asp

http://www.tradeswomennow.org/

http://www.itdg.org/?id=region_southern_africa_women_in_construction

http://www.nawic.org/

http://www.womenworking.org/

http://www.pwcusa.org/

http://www.nawicfresno.org/

http://www.professionalroofing.net/past/jan00/feature.asp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2002_31_fri_01.shtml

http://www.iphe.org.uk/wip.html

http://www.wamt.org/splash

http://www.tradeswomen.net/

And some instead are cleaning bed pans, scrubbing floors, wiping dirty noses...

Honestly, folks!

Truly I've lost some of my respect for the CD community.

[kerrianna]

I thought about this thread when I read this in a story tonight. It's from a story called "The Party" by Elizabeth Berg (New Sudden Fiction - W.W. Norton & Co. 2007)
I know it is from a fictional character, but I think many women must feel very similar feelings. I know I feel this way a lot about my own genetic gender.

"I thought, Here is how I feel about men: I am angry at them for the way they sling their advantage about - interrupting, taking over, forcing endings, pretending to not understand what equality between the sexes necessitates, thus ensuring that they are always and forever the ones who say when. But I feel sorry for them, too."

It would be nice if we didn't need to feel like we were at odds but until the ground truly is level the side in the ditch will always be trying to climb out. The best thing is for us GMs to lend a hand and help them stand beside us. That is when we will no longer need the 'isms.

:Peace: :hugs:

[KewTnCurvy GG]

I like that Kerrianne. And I'm not a male basher by a long shot but I don't put up with any guff either. Men with Sterotypical, backward, small minded views of women stick in my craw. It's disappointing to see it here. As I said, I've lost some respect for the CDing community. I guess I thought CD's were different overall but I'm learning the hard way that's not so.

On a positive note, I'm getting inspired by what I'm find on the net about women in the manual trades.

A cool website (yea, I know I've posted a ton):
http://www.sistersinthebuildingtrades.org/photos/photos.html

Kew

[crusadergirl]

I don't really care who gets payed more men or women we should stand together and stop worrying about this stuff.
I fight for the ppl but if there is a good reason to fight againest them i will.
Nothing more to say.
I totally agree with Kew on this subject.

[Eugenie]

I like that Kerrianne. And I'm not a male basher by a long shot but I don't put up with any guff either. Men with Sterotypical, backward, small minded views of women stick in my craw. It's disappointing to see it here. As I said, I've lost some respect for the CDing community. I guess I thought CD's were different overall but I'm learning the hard way that's not so.

On a positive note, I'm getting inspired by what I'm find on the net about women in the manual trades.

A cool website (yea, I know I've posted a ton):
http://www.sistersinthebuildingtrades.org/photos/photos.html

Kew

Hi Kew,

As a man, I'm very active in an anti discrimination network in Europe. This include advocacy for gender equality. I support your position completely. There is in fact more than just the salary gap in the discrimination women have to suffer.

I did feel that way since I was very young, in the university. My experience in a large company has just reinforced my support for women. I felt ashamed of being a male when some of my coleagues were making sexist comments on my female coleagues. I must say that it was worse when I came back to France where some of the male attitudes towards women would have lead these men to be fired for sexual harassment in the USA.

As a CD I feel even more in line with your thoughts. When I'm "en femme" in the streets I can feel the macho attitude in some of the men I come across.

There is one point where we, as CD, have to be quite cautious, it is not to overdo with the stereotyping of women in the way we dress and behave. I know we depend a lot upon using some of these stereotypes to impersonate women, but let's try to be somewhat modest about them...

Some of us can give a lot of gaz to fuel the rejection of X-dressers by some femininists as I have seen a few times...

:hugs: to you Kew.

Eugénie