shopping, mixed reaction

[sandra-leigh]

Had a mixed reaction to my shopping today; it was rather unusual in that I get very few "No"'s these days.

A few weeks ago, late one evening, I went into a lingerie (mostly bra) store in a nearby shopping mall. At the time they had happily let me try on bras in the fitting room, and gave professional advice on the fits. They had a good match for the fairly specific thing I was looking for. If the size 10 forms that I went in there wearing weren't enough evidence that I was serious, the fact that I walked out with a $100 bra should have erased any lingering doubt.

This afternoon, I went in again, wanting the other near-perfect model, but for the smaller (size 6) forms I had on. The SA remembered me and knew exactly which model I was referring to, and I could see that she knew I was serious and very likely to buy. But what she said was (approximately),

"[spoken firmly] The only problem is that there are women in the back {change-room}, so you will have to come back later this evening. I won't be here tonight, but you should come either first thing in the morning or late in the evening {when no women customers are around}. It's just that some of the women {customers} feel a bit funny about that sort of thing. I hope you don't mind?". I replied (politely and taking it easy), "Well, it could be a bit better"; the reply to which was, "{spoken firmly but with a tone indicating understanding of what had meant} Yes. Well, it is what it is."

After which we checked the shelves and found that they didn't have the size I need in stock; but they get more of that kind in often, and they offered to call me when they arrived.

In short, they don't mind selling to me, and will actively help me with the fitting, but if I want to try things on, that I need to go at a time that customers are sparse.

In the past a time or two I've found places that asked me politely to wait until all of the women are out of the change-rooms -- along the lines of "if you don't mind waiting, we'll get you in there as soon as the others are out." I've also been in lingerie stores that sent me in to try things in in rooms right next to ones being used by women (and even the women with small chindren didn't seem to mind that.) I've picked up dresses in small womens' clothing boutiques and taken them over and asked plainly to try them on and been sent right in, the whole thing witnessed by other customers who didn't bat an eye. But this is the first time I've essentially been told, "No try-ons except in off-off-peak hours."

Seperate and not quite equal... They weren't trying to be rude or trying to get rid of me; this is their store and this is the way they do business. On the other hand, they weren't apologizing for it either -- it was not said like, "We're sorry to say that some of our female customers find it uncomfortable to have men in the changeroom, so we ask this favour of you". And the staff was neither friendly nor unfriendly to me: they were lingerie professionals rather than people-skill professionals; and I could tell the time that they were helping me before that the quality of the help I received was in no way diminished because I was a male cross-dressing. But they also didn't have the TG customer-friendliness to say, "There's a few women back there now, but I bet there will be a lull in about 15 minutes; would you like to try back then?"

I probably will go back. In their own way, they are trying to provide the best environment they know of for the bulk of their customers. It's not personal, it's business.

[Eva Diva]

I think your last sentence says it all. They are not in the business of changing the world. They are in the business of making money. I'd give them credit for being honest, and at least not hostile. In the old days, they would have called the cops.

[Billijo49504]

If they deal with ladies who have had mastecomy's, that is stressfull enough, without some guy in the next stall. At least they are willing to help you,,,BJ

[danielle_from_cal]

At least they did not treat you rudely (arguably I suppose). It seems like you have found a good store. I think it is nice that they appreciate you as a "different" customer and have the backbone to say so. I would consider their attitude to be somewhat supportive.

[julie w]

you didnt say if you were en femme ? it sounds like you were drab

[EricaCD]

Sounds as though the store is doing its best to make reasonable accommodations all way around. I'd say they did quite well.

[Shelly Preston]

Why dont you suggest they change the policy to one where you can wait

until all the women are out of the changing area

It cant do any harm to ask ??

[sandra-leigh]

you didnt say if you were en femme ? it sounds like you were drab

I was gender-bending, which is pretty typical for me these days. If I recall correctly, I had on no makeup or wig, and mens brown-green cords, and a stretch plain brown womens' top, with bra and B to C (size 6) forms underneath. On me, the size 6 forms are not big at all: with that particular top, anyone who looked would be able to tell that there were "breasts" there, but the size was little enough that most people would look right past it.

My hair is mid length and shaped ambiguously; a small number of people who just glance at the back of my head (without seeing the rest of me) mistake me for female, but anyone whose eyes focused on me would have identified me as male.

If the implicit question is whether the other customers would have been likely to perceive me as male, the answer is "Yes, quite likely".

Would they be likely to allow me to do try-ons during the day if I was dressed? I assess not -- after all, people aren't going to see me femme or not if I'm in a changeroom. And I've never tried for a femme voice.

[sandra-leigh]

Sounds as though the store is doing its best to make reasonable accommodations all way around. I'd say they did quite well.

They don't mind me being there and talking about bras while someone might overhear -- so it doesn't seem to be "a male in a bra store is something to feel uncomfortable about". It's the change-room usage that triggers the barrier.

As mentioned earlier, some of the other bra stores have sent me in (likely figuring that I'm not going to see anything since everyone is behind curtains). One bra store did sort of move me over to a set of change-rooms that was not in use (I was trying on forms that time.)

I've been in adjacent cubicles in clothing stores with no-one appearing to care, and at least some of the women in those stores would have likely removed their bra in order to fit the tops or dresses properly (style-wise, that is.)

Could it be that we have one of those little mental inconsistancies going on? That is, the women trying on bras are actively thinking about their breasts and coverings thereof, and some of them get a bit flustered if there is a guy close nearby (even though he can't see). But the women trying on tops in a clothing store are not actively thinking about their breasts: the unclothing of their breasts is transitory and incidental to their purpose at hand, so if they thnk about a nearby guy at all, they think, "Ah, it's okay, he's not gonna see a thing." Same action, different mental contexts, different sensibilities?

Ah, I did think of something just now, and that is that the women trying on in the bra store may well end up talking to the SAs about their bras and breast needs; it would be quite understandable for them to be concerned that a male might overhear that. Perhaps the operative factor is not sight at all, but rather bound into the psychology of the discussions. And since it is one of the few stores in town with an active reputation for being able to fit women who can't find anything else (a store that concentrates on function rather than glitz), it would tend to have a clientele more likely to be discussing problems.

[trannie T]

Sounds like the poor store is damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think they were making an honest effort to make reasonable arrangements for all concerned. The major part of their business is to women who may become very uncomfortable with men in the area. Men make a very small contribution to the store's sales, be happy they are serving you.

[RachelDenise]

I've been in a bra store and have tried to be sensitive to their needs. I understand that when I appear in their store in male mode I'm in their world and just hope that they can help. I don't take it personally and am happy when it's my turn.

[goofus]

Sounds like the poor store is damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think they were making an honest effort to make reasonable arrangements for all concerned. The major part of their business is to women who may become very uncomfortable with men in the area. Men make a very small contribution to the store's sales, be happy they are serving you.

Yeah, the thing is, these women don't know you; for all they know you're just some perv that wants to sneak a peek at semi-clothed women, so I wouldn't feel put off if they don't want you in the fitting rooms at the same time that women are in there.

[sandra-leigh]

Yeah, the thing is, these women don't know you; for all they know you're just some perv that wants to sneak a peek at semi-clothed women

These women do know me now -- they know that I came in before, had completely reasonable and focused discussions with them, bought one of their most expensive bras (because that's what was needed for the job). And that this time I had come back for a very specific model I had tried on before, not just hanging around and hoping for a glimpse. And they knew that both times I wore a womens' top and forms. So though they might have reason to believe that I'm a perv for crossdressing, they didn't have reason to believe that I was a perv hoping for a lucky glimpse.

And the "sneak-a-peak" theory doesn't explain why they couldn't say, "come back in a short time when we don't happen to have any women in back".

[sandra-leigh]

Sounds like the poor store is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Dammed by whom if they do? The other bra, lingerie and clothing stores I've been to have not had these policies: in the other places, the female customers have taken it completely in stride. Indeed, in one of the clothing stores I go to, it is common for the female customers to offer advice as to whether particular pieces fit me right or look good on me. There is thus evidence from other stores that such strong policies are not necessary and lead to little or no customer complaint.

I could imagine that this store might had reason to form a "no husbands/boyfriends in the change area" policy; I somehow suspect, though, that they haven't had enough crossdressers to have formed a specific and firm "no men may try on bras in the back unless there is essentially no risk that female customers might be around."

Is the policy a theoretical one based upon assumptions about how the female customers would react, or is it rooted in experience where a crossdresser was trying something on and women told the owners they had felt uncomfortable about it? Or is it really an application of a (plausible) "No husbands/boyfriends" rule?

[Emma England]

Perhaps, many cds should go en masse, so that they get used to it!

The trouble with lingerie, is that gg's will have to undress to fit a different bra on.
Not the same as trying on outer clothing OVER a bra.

[rachel_rachel]

Remember one thing here.. It is a women's clothing store first and foremost.
Although our money is the same colour as everyone else's, i do believe that women should feel comfortable and safe when shopping for itimate appareal. Most would would feel very threatened by a man even walking into a store like that.. To get the service that was given would have been a big enough thing anyway.

[Karren H]

I try not to mpact others with my hobby and if that means modifying what I want to do that's fine, afterall they are in business to make money and if what I do scares off other customers then that isn't right, in my opinion!

Karren

[Brianna Lovely]

Is the policy a theoretical one based upon assumptions about how the female customers would react, or is it rooted in experience where a crossdresser was trying something on and women told the owners they had felt uncomfortable about it?

Or is it an assumtion, that all men, are up to no good and can't be trusted?

[myMichelle]

Remember one thing here.. It is a women's clothing store first and foremost.
Although our money is the same colour as everyone else's, i do believe that women should feel comfortable and safe when shopping for itimate appareal. Most would would feel very threatened by a man even walking into a store like that.. To get the service that was given would have been a big enough thing anyway.


I agree with the above post...This is one of those issues that could be debated and discussed all month long. However, the simple fact is that we are all men wearing women's clothing. Sure, it can be (and is) frustrating for us, but we were all born men, not women. As much as I enjoy an encounter with any open-minded, accepting person while enfemme (or not), I do not believe it is reasonable for us as crossdressers to expect everyone we encounter to be completely comfortable with our behavior. As harsh as it sounds, the world is not a fair place.

In brief, I think it is wonderful that many of us have reached a comfort level that will allow us to venture out into the world enfemme, but, to a large extent, the reactions we receive are beyond our control. I believe that we should revel in the unique joy that comes from the expression of our femme selves, and not dwell on issues that are only going to leave us feeling side-tracked and frustrated.

Jus tmy :2c:

[Michelia]

Did you ever think maybe the store experienced a complaint about you or another crossdresser since you last came in? Obviously, there has been a slight change in policy. But, in my opinion are still doing their best to serve you (and well...us).

Michelia

[sandra-leigh]

Did you ever think maybe the store experienced a complaint about you or another crossdresser since you last came in? Obviously, there has been a slight change in policy.

No, from what was said the first time I was in, I know that the second time was a consistant application of the same policy: it just so happened that the first time it was already late enough in the day that they were willing to chance it.

[sandra-leigh]

To get the service that was given would have been a big enough thing anyway.

I don't mean to imply that I was looking for trouble in going there in the first place -- the woman who told me about the store is the local "den mother" of the crossdressing group and a lingerie shop owner herself, so I had reason to expect that it would be a good store to go to.

Anyhow, just as a point of fact: the store would have been at legal risk if they had refused to serve me to the same level of service as they served women. Canada's anti-discrimination laws included gender (in the traditional sense) in clear terms, and in the last few years there have been several Supreme Court cases that have ruled that "sexual orientation" qualifies under the phrase "and other like grounds" that is in the original law. Courts have taken the antidiscrimination laws quite seriously: for example, same sex marriage was ruled to be a right by every provincial court case in recent years, always with strong rulings, to the point where the federal government stepped in and made it legally nationally.
So no shop would care to risk a gender discrimination lawsuit by outright refusing to serve me. ("Were there clear signs posted informing customers of the restricted nature of your service? There are opaque doors or curtains on your change rooms, are there not? You allow females to try on bras; is there any hygenie reason why men would present any difficulties? Is there any difference in the male physiology that would result in damage to the merchandise when trying on a bra that had been chosen with your assistance as being in the right size range? You serve mascetomy patients, do you not? Have breast forms ever presented damage to the merchandise? So, then, this restriction against males trying on bras is not a necessary restriction from the point of view of protecting the integrity of the merchandise? Is it not true that you sell quite a number of bras to men as presents for their wifes or girlfriends, so male customers are not uncommon in your store, and women would not have a "reasonable expectation" that the store would be exclusively for women? Your store is, is it not, in a public shopping mall, and the sales area is open to view by all passers by, is it not? And you have never advertised your store as being exclusively for women? You offer confidential consulting services to women with breast problems, but was there any sign advertising that fact? Is it not true that a portion of males suffer from gynomastia, and use regular bras for the relief of their condition, so bras are not inherently used by women only? So there is in fact no physical reason that this customer could not have been served, and that any barrier to serving him was a matter of custom rather than of substance? etc.)

What a business is entitled to, though, is to make "reasonable accomedations" to serving males. Generally speaking, "reasonable accomedations" would not include requiring males to make appointments after normal shopping hours, as that has implications about keeping them "out of sight" and that they are not as welcome to "drop in" which is the way business is done for the rest of the public. Restricting to specific portions of regular business hours might be reasonable, provided that the hours were not so narrowly tailored as to present unfair barriers to access (e.g., if it were "10 am to 11 am on Mondays", then that would present unfair barriers to males who work during the week -- especially as males would be reluctant to ask their bosses for permission for absence during the day so that they can go buy a bra.)

Theoretically speaking, "reasonable accomedation" could also include strategies such as a sign "Male inside" -- any woman who felt uncomfortable could then wait, and those who didn't feel uncomfortable could enter. There is a legal requirement to serve men "under reasonable conditions"; there is no legal requirement to shield women from the potential discomfort of the thought that sometimes men are served there. So asking me to wait until all the women already in there were out would be "reasonable", but telling me to come back when there are no female customers around is borderline. You would not, for example, ask a black person to come back during the off-off-peak hours because some white people feel uncomfortable being near black people -- it isn't done, even if it'd be a one-time sale to the black person and the loss of regular sales to the white people thereby discomforted.


I might perhaps be giving the impression that I'm really put out by all of this and looking to force them to accomedate me, but most of what I've said here doesn't even get to the level of "armchair quarterbacking", as it is theoretical rather than emotional. Closer would be that I have this vague feeling that there has been some discrimination, and I get disappointed when I know of discrimination and get urges to "say something" -- not to "tell someone off", but to educate and reduce the discrimination.

[sandra-leigh]

The SA remembered me and knew exactly which model I was referring to, and I could see that she knew I was serious and very likely to buy. But what she said was (approximately),

"[spoken firmly] The only problem is that there are women in the back {change-room}, so you will have to come back later this evening. I won't be here tonight, but you should come either first thing in the morning or late in the evening {when no women customers are around}.

Following up on this topic:

It was about time for the shipment I was waiting for to be in, so since I was in the mall anyhow, I stopped in at the bra store today, about 4 pm on a Sunday afternoon (mall closes 5pm.) This time the SA I dealt with before was not there, so I dealt with someone else; I don't recall whether she'd seen me before, but I know the other SA in the store had seen me before.

I was in today in a brown femme-ish top, with the bulge of my large forms (G cup) noticable underneath (but not looking huge.) I was wearing flowing black pants of a style not typical of men or women (African pants). I had on my women's black loafers; my ankles to the tops of my shoes were visible, but it wasn't possible to tell that I was wearing "playa" coloured pantihose (very close to my natural skin tone.) But I was not presenting as femme: I had no makeup or jewelry or wig.

I walked into the store confidently, and went over to the section I was interested in. When the SA asked me if I needed assistance, I described what I was looking for, and she spent awhile going around the store trying to find something that fit the description. No attempt was made to hide my appearance or my interest in the bras from the other customers; any of the customers that didn't figure out that I was there to buy for myself could not have been paying any attention. And the other customers weren't paying any attention to me (not avoiding me, they were just going around doing their own thing.) The SAs concentrated more on me than on the other customers -- the other customers were "just looking", whereas the SAs could tell that I was there on a mission to buy something.

When we'd picked out a few things, the SA asked whether I'd like to try them on, and put me in a room with no hesitation, even though there were female customers in the store, and she indicated willingness to help me check the fit and so on. Within a couple of minutes of my entering the change rooms, they had brought a couple of female customers back into other change rooms.

The SA did indeed actively help me choose the fit and styling, entering the changeroom several times to examine the effect and make adjustments and give opinions, and went to get several bras that she thought might work for me. I tried some 36AA's first (hoping to find something for the natural me); the SA had me try on a 36A as well, and when that didn't work either, said that "Next time we'll have you try something in an A cup." After the AA's, I switched over to my D forms and tried a white bra with roses in a 36D; when the SA saw it, she said, "It's beautiful!". She seemed a bit astonished at how good that bra looked on me with my D forms. The remaining D's I tried didn't fit quite as well, though one of them was fairly good if you tugged the form into the right place.

I ended up buying only the one white-and-roses bra; I seriously considered one of the other ones, but the first was $120 alone, and the other was $140, and it just seemed to be too much money to buy both at the same time. The one I didn't quite buy was a "fun" design, blue with flowers, and different than anything I've had before, but it was also reminiscent of a bikini -- there's a time and a place for those too, and today just wasn't quite the right time.


Anyhow, if you remember (or review back) to the original discussion, the earlier SA had put me off from trying things on due to the possibility of discomforting the female customers; this SA didn't mention anything like that at all. Yes, it was end of the Sunday, and the place wasn't exactly packed, but this time I was treated like any other serious customer -- and the female customers didn't say a thing about me.

The service level I received today was quite good. And now I have a lovely new bra that's a bit more exciting than the previous ones.

Maybe I wore them down, returning with politeness and sincerity. :D

[krisla]

I feel they are being sensitive to all there customers and having a genetic male in the store while croweded could be a problem for other customers. I understand your disappointment but just take there advise and come when they think they can serve you best. I just called a wig store and I asked what is the protocol for TG customers and I was told come on in. Although other customers where in the store they took care of me and made me feel comfortable. They also thanked me for calling before hand. I would not blame the store I would just understand that not all there other customers understand TG and some may freak out.

Krisla

[faltenrock]

Hi there,

I've never made any simular experiences, and I've been out many times and have tried on diffenrent clothes in boutiques and large dep. stores - never a problem.

Just a few experiences:
A few years ago, I wanted to get my hair cut a bid, so I was in a small village, around late lunch time. Went into the first hairdresser salon, they didn't have he time to cut - I would have needed an appointment.
So to the next hairdresser around - there was only one more.
Went in, the older lady called a younger one and said, this is a job for you.

She came, had me seated and started cutting without any word about my outfit. that was a short light grey pleated skirt, a blouse, a black jacket and black pantyhose with dots all over it. Sitting there for 15 minutes was a nice experience.

Another one:
Sometimes when I have ti drive a long distanc by car, I take the slow streets and dress up. I passed a village with a unusual big dep. store. I've been there a few times already. That's back three years. At the time, my favorite skirts were very fashionable - short pleated skirts. So went in, dressed with a short black pleated skirt and a grey jacket, black stockings and high heels.
When looking around, I saw a beautiful black pleated mini skirt with small white and red lines in it. I went closer and took a better look. Found out, that they had a whole suit, a jacket and the skirt. A young saleswoman asked if I needed help. I said no, I just wanted to try on the skirt. She showed where the dressing area was. I put off my skirt and on the new skirt.
Then I heared to woman asking whether I needed help. I was finished and came out of the dressing room. She was waiting for me while I was looking into the large mirrows. I couldn't believe what she said. She said: "You look absolutely stunnning - the suit looks great on you. A collegque of her came over and said, a little more meaningful - "well - that's something diffenrent, but nice".
I did not buy the suit, because the jacket was just to small for me.

Another occasion
I went into a smaller dep. store, right into the hosery dep. I was looking for a dark blue pantyhose. I was wearing a blue mini skirt and a blue jacket along with blue high heels and a black pantyhose.
The saleswoman came over to me very natural and asked me what I was looking for. I said - a blue pantyhose to match my suit. Well she looked around in her area and came with three different pantyhoses and asked if I needed something else.

Anyway, I just want to say, that I've made quite some experiences like this.

Doreen

[Julogden]

While I can see the stores point, I also feel that they should have some sort of accomodation for the occasional male customer. All they need to do is set up one little fitting room for males, for crying out loud, I don't think that's asking too much.

Where I live, there are laws against discrimination based on gender or gender identity, that store could be in trouble for not allowing you to try bras on if it was here, and I feel that they are in the wrong for telling you to come back later.

But that's here, not where you live, so you need to decide based on your situation how to handle that.

Good luck,
Carol:hugs:

[Mitch23]

I've been in a bra store and have tried to be sensitive to their needs. I understand that when I appear in their store in male mode I'm in their world and just hope that they can help. I don't take it personally and am happy when it's my turn.
Yes i agree - i think thats fairy nuff - its not an ideal world and perhaps they could have been a little more diplomatic. I've not yet been in that situation so its hard to judge,

mitch