Contradictory Thoughts

[melissa michaels]

I've always considered myself to be open minded about sex,gender,and such.I guess being MTF it makes sense.However today i caught some of the Tyra show that delt with a pair of girl twins,and one was FTM.while watching this i kept wondering why a girl would want to do this?.generaly i hate social double standards,so please don't hit me with that.but so far i don't know why i feel this way.Anyone else feel this way about some of this stuff?

[jessie_cal]

I personally don't know. Have you asked the female to male section?

[Chiana]

I really can't speak for the FTM people. However, I can easily understand that if your brain tells you that your are one gender but your body is different from that, you will want to fix it. Whether you are male or female, it shouldn't be any different.

[MJ]

I really can't speak for the FTM people. However, I can easily understand that if your brain tells you that your are one gender but your body is different from that, you will want to fix it. Whether you are male or female, it shouldn't be any different.

well said Chiana you have to try and understand as i am a male to female all my male side what friends and family knew and loved is not who i am i lived a lie to please them but i had to be ME and i wanted to change everything about my look ... so it matches the way i feel inside,
for the female to males it the same thing but in reverse

[trannie T]

I have a hard time understanding how a male with femanine traits can be critical of a female with male traits. It is the same thing, we both have gender issues. If a boy can want to be a girl, why can't a girl want to be a boy?

[susie bear]

I have a hard time understanding how a male with femanine traits can be critical of a female with male traits. It is the same thing, we both have gender issues. If a boy can want to be a girl, why can't a girl want to be a boy?

I agree. IMHO there is no difference.

Susie Bear

[Valerie Nicole]

I'd like to play devil's advocate here and offer my own hypothesis which opposes what everyone else is saying. I think that as MTFs, we may be MORE likely to have difficulty understanding FTMs. I think we find ourselves so caught up in admiration of women sometimes, that we actually do put them on a level above us. We believe this "superiority" is why we feel the desire to crossdress. And so, I find it understandable that we might have difficulty figuring out why a woman would want to look like and take on the role of a man. From our perspective, this can seem like surrendering superiority, or taking a step backwards.

Another part of this (or at least another way of looking at it) could also be the fact that many of us enjoy being feminine so much, that we rarely want to be male ourselves. We spend so much time playing the part of a woman, and we enjoy it so much, that we may sometimes lose appreciation for being a man. Without this appreciation for being a man, it is reasonable (or at least expected) that we ask, "why would a woman, who is naturally everything we want to be, want to be a man?"

That, my friends, is why I think some MTFs have a hard time understanding FTMs.

[sandra-leigh]

I think that as MTFs, we may be MORE likely to have difficulty understanding FTMs.

:iagree:

There's a difference between accepting FTM vs intuitively understanding their motives. Just look at the recent "if you could be female for 3 weeks" thread to see how many of us have rampant fantasies of femaleness; there was far too much there to make plausible that we all have obiedient equalitarian rational intuitions about why women might choose to act like males.

[Lori SC]

I'd like to play devil's advocate here and offer my own hypothesis which opposes what everyone else is saying. I think that as MTFs, we may be MORE likely to have difficulty understanding FTMs. I think we find ourselves so caught up in admiration of women sometimes, that we actually do put them on a level above us. We believe this "superiority" is why we feel the desire to crossdress. And so, I find it understandable that we might have difficulty figuring out why a woman would want to look like and take on the role of a man. From our perspective, this can seem like surrendering superiority, or taking a step backwards.

Another part of this (or at least another way of looking at it) could also be the fact that many of us enjoy being feminine so much, that we rarely want to be male ourselves. We spend so much time playing the part of a woman, and we enjoy it so much, that we may sometimes lose appreciation for being a man. Without this appreciation for being a man, it is reasonable (or at least expected) that we ask, "why would a woman, who is naturally everything we want to be, want to be a man?"

That, my friends, is why I think some MTFs have a hard time understanding FTMs.

Sounds like a good explanation to me!

Intellectually, I can accept the FtM, and I "know" they experience the same needs to be the opposite sex as me, but on some level I still question it. Maybe this is why.

Am I mixed up or what? :hypnotized:

Hugs, Lori

[bi_weird]

Hah some thoughts from the other side. As something of an FTM, I can tell you that there are definite appeals to becoming a man. It makes a lot of sense to me, it terms of how I've always seen myself. It's comfortable, and solid, and empowering (am I allowed to say that as a feminist? I dunno...but I don't mean it as in it gives me the keys to the good ol' boys club. Just that it gives me power over my life.)
On the other hand I totally understand where you're coming from. As an FTM, I have a hard time understanding why you girls want to be girls. It's such a hassel to me, and so uncomfortable and just doesn't work for me. But those last two words are the key: 'for me'. I just accept that you girls do your thing and it works for you, and I'll do my thing and love my boy clothes.
Hope you don't mind me butting in. I'll hop back over the wall now. Have a nice day ladies!

[thea]

Phil_Jessica said it well. One additional aspect is that everybody can have a hard time comprehending that other people deny what she or he likes, would like to be, or is drawn to. So a woman not wanting to be a woman (yes, that's simplified phrasing for the sake of argument--it's more than just "not wanting," and it's not right to label "a woman" for FtM even before transition) can challenge a MtF's worldview.

[Melanie R]

I've always considered myself to be open minded about sex,gender,and such.I guess being MTF it makes sense.However today i caught some of the Tyra show that delt with a pair of girl twins,and one was FTM.while watching this i kept wondering why a girl would want to do this?.generaly i hate social double standards,so please don't hit me with that.but so far i don't know why i feel this way.Anyone else feel this way about some of this stuff?

Melissa,

You need a lot more education on gender issues. The reality is there are many women who have felt for years that their gender is male. Some may decide to transition to become male with a change in all gender markers. Why is it alright for a male to female but not female to male?

[Satrana]

I've always considered myself to be open minded about sex,gender,and such.I guess being MTF it makes sense.However today i caught some of the Tyra show that delt with a pair of girl twins,and one was FTM.while watching this i kept wondering why a girl would want to do this?.generaly i hate social double standards,so please don't hit me with that.but so far i don't know why i feel this way.Anyone else feel this way about some of this stuff?

I think your problem may stem from the fact that you idolize feminity and dislike masculinity which results in your lack of empathy why a woman would want to become a man.

[AmberTG]

Here's my 2 cents. Melissa is questioning why she feels a lack of understanding of the FTM situation, not questioning why FTMs feel as they do. I know what she is thinking because I have the same thoughts, but I know why I have those thoughts. Here's how it goes-"why would she want to become a he, why would she not want to be a female, the very thing that I have wanted to be all my life?" And you see, that is where the question comes from. I'm thinking about it from my personal point of view.
I know that there are many FTMs who feel the same way as me about gender, but in the opposite direction. I bet they ask themselves the same question, "Why would he want to be a girl, the very thing that I don't want to be, when he's already a guy, the very thing I do want to be?"
I think it's a natural thing to ask yourself, there's nothing wrong with that question, it's part of the process of learning and understanding other people's situations, and I think it can also bring a bit of knowledge about our own feelings as well. It's not too hard to put myself in an FTM's shoes once I understand that they have the same feelings as me, except in reverse.
Amber Darlene

[Kate Simmons]

I guess I'm the exception to the rule. I can understand where both the F T M's and M T F's are coming from and relate. I've embraced both sides of myself as that is my nature and have balanced that. I'm not exclusively one or the other and enjoy being both which I guess plays a big part in my willingness to accept everyone for who they are.:happy: Sal

[CaptLex]

However today i caught some of the Tyra show that delt with a pair of girl twins,and one was FTM.while watching this i kept wondering why a girl would want to do this?
Lots of good open-minded answers here - thank you all. The short answer to your question, "why a girl would want to do this" is that the guy on Tyra's show is not a girl - and he wants to be and live as he really is, a guy. I hope this helps.

[Gina_darling]

I understand why FTMs are the way they are and why MTFs are too, it is about expressing the inside feelings on the outside. I could bring in the scientific explanation of in utero cocktail of hormones determined by the foetal chromosomes and consequent development of physical sexual characteristics and development of the sexually dymorphic nucleus within the thalamus of the brain but I suspect that will be a little much for everyone :p

The spanner I throw in are the boys who are boys but a bit girly, and then the tomboys. Of course they are within the gender spectrum and are closer to cisgendered than transgendered. My question then is are there any FTMs who would be girly boys and any MTFs who would be tomboys?

[CaptLex]

My question then is are there any FTMs who would be girly boys and any MTFs who would be tomboys?
Yes, there are definitely FtMs that are girly boys, myself included. And I'm sure there are MtFs who consider themselves tomboys. We're all on different stops along that gender spectrum. :happy:

[Kate Simmons]

Yep, lotsa stops. I'm a tomboy as Salandra but Sal can sometimes be a girly boy as well. Confused yet? Many folks that know me here know what I mean. Anyway, I'm a "gender blender" at heart and just like others for who they are.;) :battingeyelashes:

[Gina_darling]

"Gender Blender" I like the sentiment! While I like to be pretty I know if I was a GG I would be a tomboy most of the time! I would do the same job I do now because I love the mucking in and getting dirty when doing visits to farms or getting on the floor to wrestle a difficult dog for a blood sample!

[Marcie Sexton]

I'm quite sure we all do...its a matter of your own personal views, though...I in the past had a terrible view about certain types of people...after a lot of time and money well spent, I finially figured out just who I was and what it meant for me to accept me as me...

Now I work hard at not judging any one for any thing...I deal with it as best I can then let the chips fall as they may...

My therp. made a statement the other day that makes a lot of sense...she
said..."Those that sceam the loudest for tolerance, are those that show no tolerance"...has a lot of foundation to it...I can think of several public situations where that is exactly what has been shown, not to mention our own personal lives...

[Felix]

What a great thread, I love coming in here for a good thread like this. Well I agree with Lex about the girl who wasn't a girl on the tv. I am Genderqueer or that's how I see myself I do have a very strong male side which is absolutely dominating at the moment and if it had it's way I would probably be going down the road of transitioning now! That would be because as an FtM I would like to be male and let my psyche win. From the other side of my queerness my spirit is female and that is the part of me that understands your yearning to be female. It is this part of me that stops me going down the road my psyche want's to go. Confused yet. Hope this has helped xx Felix :hugs:

[melissa michaels]

There's a lot of great replys here,and a lot of good views to think about.But.the guestion was not about me.it was about You.

[Dasein9]

Good for you for thinking about these things, Melissa. Most people never ask these questions. I recall a conversation I had a few months ago with my dentist. We were noticing that in our neighbourhood, small girls are always in pink and small boys are always in blue. She told me it's because it's hard to tell which a baby is. When I asked why the heck the shape of an infant's genitals was any of the general public's business, she just looked at me in shock. She'd simply never thought of that.

I've said it elsewhere, but it bears repeating: Gender is not the same thing as biological sex. Some people who were born with penises are masculine and some are feminine. Some people who were born with vaginas are masculine and some are feminine. Some people are born with genitalia that make their doctors and parents very uncomfortable, and some of them are masculine and some of them are feminine. And the range of masculinity and femininity is very broad indeed!

The possibilities for combination and mixing are really quite exciting, and are played out in individual lives.

So, what we have in common:
Identifying more or less with a gender other than that we've been assigned.
Social disapprobation because of our gender identity.
Difficulties with our bodies not being as we'd like them to be.
Difficulties with the fit of clothing.
Beatings from bigots.
Some of us date women and some of us date men on both sides.

Things we don't have as much in common:
Liking frilly/pink/girly stuff vs. liking plain/drab/boyish stuff.
Make-up vs. Wouldn't be caught dead in that stuff. :)
Getting rid of facial hair vs. praying for more facial hair.
Heels vs. Combat boots.

This is, of course, not a complete list. But I think we have more in common than you might think at first.

- Das (a gay FTM)