Is crossdressing dishonest?

[Leah B]

I've been hearing from my partner lately that X-dressing is dishonest. That it's playing pretend since I want to misrepresent myself as a woman when I am not.

She doesn't understand why I want to take on another name, another set of mannerisms, another voice, or augment my body (like breastforms would do). Why can't I just go out and wear a skirt and makeup and be the dude most people know me as? I think she's worried that I want to be someone completely different.

Now, I've got some answers for her, but I don't have them all. So, for those of you who have a second persona, why? What is it about being a woman that's so much better than being a man in the same clothing?

[Sharon]

You can actually make the arguement that you're being more honest when you express yourself as you want or need to.

[Kate Simmons]

Depends on what you are looking for. Most of us want a positive self image and feedback from not only our appearance but also our interactions with others (going shopping, out in public, etc.). I used to be a second persona as Ericka but now, I'm pretty much the same person no matter what I look like. For myself a lot of it was about bringing out my feminine feelings, not being afraid of them and embracing them. The "second persona" is one of many vehicles to use to accomplish that. When all is said and done, we are still ourselves anyway.:happy: Sal

[Valerie Nicole]

No, it's not dishonest, because nobody is losing anything or getting hurt in any way at all. If I want to go out pretending to be a woman, who is the victim of that "dishonesty"? Has anyone been hurt by virtue of the fact that they saw what they thought was a woman but was really a man? I don't see how.

If you disagree with me, then odds are you're going to bring up the bathroom scenario. That it is dishonest for us to go into a women's bathroom. I disagree there, too. If we do not look at other women and do not see anything we shouldn't be seeing, there is no dishonesty. If we do look at the other women, then this is dishonest, but it is not because of the crossdressing. This is an action committed wholely independent of the crossdressing, just like if we were to shoplift clothes while dressed, this has nothing to do with the fact that we ARE dressed, it is just something we did at the time we happened to be dressed.

Does this make sense?

[Butterfly Bill]

I have to say that I agree with her somewhat. I wear the clothes, but it remains obvious that I am a man, and I think life is much simpler when I do it like that. I also feel I get more acceptance from other people that way.

[BlUeDrAgOn]

First of all, I don't think it's dishonest at all to be a crossdresser. We are what we are. It's not a choice. It would be easier if we could switch it on and off as we would please, but it's not how it works. It's one of our own characteristics, like being heterosexual, gay, good parent, bad parent... You know.

People tend to look at the differences as a bad thing, discriminating, sometimes being violent, but we have to be able to deal with it the best we can.

It would be better if we could all be ourselves out in the open, but the world doesn't work like that. So, we have to keep some secrets to ourselves (sometimes we can share them with our family, but not always). Personally, I'm in a struggle with myself to decide if I'll ever tell it to my wife, but I don't feel I'm being dishonest for being the way I am. I even think I'm keeping her from being hurt, not telling her something she would probably never understand or accept. Until now, it's keeping me from the pleasures of CD'ing, but I'm beinh able to live with that so far...

[Di]

You can actually make the arguement that you're being more honest when you express yourself as you want or need to.

:iagree:



Thanks Sharon you took the words right out of my mouth..... you are having communication and being honest about how you truly feel.

[Leah B]

You can actually make the arguement that you're being more honest when you express yourself as you want or need to.

Sure, I can. But that doesn't mean she'll accept that. I'm looking for your reasons why here. Why a fake name? Why fake boobe? Why fake anything? What she wants to know is why can't I be like Butterfly Bill and just be happy wearing fem garments without the fem act. Or perhaps the opposite, acting fem while in drab (which I find much less appealing).

Someone mentioned above that we want favorable reactions. This is a large part of why I want to pass. She wonders if its selfish that I want to be treated like a lady too, since most people are content with just one gender, and I want them both.

I've suggested she let me go out as presenting as a man, as D___, but in drag. She demurred, and I must wonder if it's because she knows how difficult that'd be.

[Sharon]

Well, I'm TS so my situation is different than yours. I was just making an observation.

[Pippilotta]

It actually is a matter of being honest to oneself, that is: trying to develop one's feminine side (which is there, whether acknowledged or not). That, of course, could be done in several different ways, of which crossdressing is but one. How far we go, and exactly what we do in this respect, certainly is to some important degree dependent upon our human environment and on how much/little we feel obliged to consider their reaction and response.
As to supplying "what isn't there" - well, is that not exactly what genetic women have done always ?!

[Phoebe Reece]

Leah, for me the experience of dressing femme and going out in public is like being an actor in a stage play. It's not being dishonest, it's playing a role. I know what I am and so do many of the people I encounter when I am out. When I "pass", it's just a validation of my performance.

[Di]

REASONS? How can anyone else answer YOUR reasons.
I was in general saying because that is how you feel inside and need to express yourself....and you are being honest to her about your feelings.
There are as many reasons as there are cd's and tg's........so you are asking for reasons that will fly with her....:Angry3:

Why a fake name? Why fake boobe? Why fake anything?......... A simple answer might be so you can present as you feel you are inside.

[Marcie Sexton]

If your situation was hidden and causing problems, then I'd agree, however you are one of the brave ones...You like so many of us have come ut, some to open arms, some to disdain and rejection...but we are being honest both with ourselves and our SO's...more than can be said about the majority of society...:2c:

[sobe1ove GG]

Hi, I'm Leah's partner.

I'm somewhat afraid to post in this thread. I don't want to get my head bitten off. I sort of wish he didn't bring this up here.

Anyway, some things I believe:

1. Dishonesty doesn't need victims. Even if you aren't hurting anyone with your dishonesty, it's still dishonest.

2. Lying to your wife is dishonest, no matter what it's about.

3. I personally don't understand how pretending to be someone you're not is being more honest. You may feel a connection with elements of being a woman, but you aren't one. Pretending to be *anything* that you arent is dishonest.

4. Something bothers me about what 'Leah' says. He says that he doesn't feel himself unless others treat him that way. I think it's sad that anyone needs attention from strangers in order to feel like themselves. I don't base who I am on what others think of me. The opinions of strangers don't mean one bit.

5. He mentioned that I think it's selfish you y'all want to experience the best things from each gender. The better way to say it is that I feel it's greedy. At least from what 'Leah' says about his own feelings. He's jealous that women get treated differently from men, so he wants to experience that, too. Greedy.

I'm sort of afraid that after this post I might be banned from the boards. I just get this vibe that when I get the privelege to post, as a GG, that I don't have to right to question you guys or to not agree with what you think.

And anyway, who cares what I think? One of my main points is just that. Who cares what anyone thinks but yourselves? And your 'significant other'.

[Jenny Beth]

For a lot of us here it's taken the better part of a lifetime to accept who we are let alone understand it all. If your partner feels that you are being dishonest and you don't have the answers as to why you dress then I'm sorry to say but you are off to a rough start. Basically you have to accept yourself before you can expect others to accept you. I wish you luck in sorting this out.

[Karren H]

Now that's a good one!!! If us crossdressing as women is dishonest then there's a Walmart full of women dressed in baggy jeans and oversized sweatshirts out there that are just as dishonest... Hehe...

You could even go as far to say that women wearing makeup is dishonest because it hides their true looks.... Guys wearing tups are dishonest for hiding the baldness... Wearing any cloths at all is dishonest because it covers up the real you... Lol.

So when it comes right down to it were all dishonest.... Trust me!! You can take my word for it because, of coarse, I'm extremely honest!!

:tongueout

Love Karren

[Valerie Nicole]

sobe1ove, I admire your courage in posting in this thread. That could not have been an easy move for you to make. You have every right to question us and disagree with us, just as we have every right question you and disagree with you. I do not have a problem with your post in this thread, even though I do not agree with what you have said, and I would like to ask you a few questions.

If dishonesty doesn't need victims, allow me to put it another way...even if it is dishonest, where is the harm if there ARE no victims? I don't see how publicly CDing can hurt anybody, unless the CDer is recognized. But if you don't care what other people think, this shouldn't be a problem for you. My point there is where is the harm in it, even if it is dishonest, if nobody gets hurt?

I agree with your point about lying to a wife. I would never think to enter into a relationship with a girl (I'm 19, just fyi) without letting her know about this side of me.

My response to your third point is that many of us (myself included) feel that there is a woman inside us that needs to be expressed. It is not a matter of just wanting to be feminine or connect with femininity, it is a matter of needing to show the world who we are on the inside. For some of us (myself not included) we feel not only that there is a woman on the inside, but that this woman is a larger part of us than our male aspect.

Having never been out en femme, I can't give you a response to your fourth point.

For your fifth point...to be perfectly honest it sounds like you are being a little high and mighty. I do not mean to offend you, because I realize that you genuinely do not have a lot of experience with this lifestyle, but to be perfectly blunt, you don't really know what it is like to be one of us. The desire to be feminine (or to even temporarily take on a completely female role) is a part of who we are inside. Many of us go through periods of wanting to change this part of us, and end up in torment over realizing that we can't change. We are not fulfilling some idle fantasy here, but expressing a part of ourselves that can't go unexpressed. It is not a want. It is a need.

I hope this might help clarify a few things for you and I hope it helps you understand your husband a little better. Then again, I can't really speak for him and I don't know how much of this applies to him. I am not trying to change your mind, because I have no right to tell you how you should feel, I am simply trying to show you some things you may not have considered before.

Once again I respect and admire you for your courage and your honesty. I am glad you posted in this thread and I hope that what I have said here will be some help. I wish you and your husband the best of luck, and I hope this all works out for you.

[Phoebe Reece]

Sobe1ove, You should never feel uneasy about making a post here. This forum is here for a free and open exchange of ideas. Just because some may disagree with you does not make your point any less valid. You have as much right to express your beliefs as anyone else.

I do not think many people here will appreciate being judged as "dishonest". That has implications that go beyond the crossdressing. Still, if that is your opinion, you should feel welcome to express it.

The thing about opinions is that everyone has one and they are all different.

[Kate Simmons]

You have a right to your own opinion Sobe. No one is going to fault you for that. I, for one, am glad to hear your honest feelings on this. None of us have all the answers and that is why we are here, to try and understand it together.:happy: Sal

[sobe1ove GG]

Yeah. I feel like these opinions I have about him going out dressed as someone else will never change. Frankly, I think that I don't really need to change how I feel about it. I'm still with him. I know 'Leah' would like it if I accepted him whole heartedly and understood everything. Then again, I would like it if he did none of this. We can't always get what we want.

But I'm here, and I'm trying. Some days I cry for hours. Other I'm fine.

Yesterday we want shoe shopping. It's was 'Leah's first time. He got his first pair of lady shoes. Everyone should congratulate him for it. :) He was very brave.

[BlUeDrAgOn]

Well, yes she was. Congratulations, Leah!:clap:

[Jenny Beth]

We won't bite your head off and you won't get banned for saying what you think. The fact you are here suggests you are looking for answers, that's great. Now quit your complaining and tell us about that shoe shopping trip... we're all ears...:heehee:

PS.... We are a silly bunch, don't take anyone seriously.

[lindase4da]

Congrats on the new shoes and I agree that we're all ears. A pic would be nice too.

I'm a natal female single S/O to both a M2F t-gurl and a CD. I went in with my eyes open and offer love, acceptance, and encouragement to my gurls. I was not forced to have to deal with a lifestyle that choose me, I chose it.

For so many of the S/O's, partners, wives, when faced with the fact that their lifepath will now not be what they imagined, they feel betrayal and anger towards the perceived dishonestly, deceit, deception that took place in their relationship both in and out of bed. That said, it may be that your perspective of dishonest is not meant as a generalization of crossdressing, but as a personal statement of how you feel about your current situation. The tears are common when we grieve what we thought to be our reality. Our beings are shaked to the soul of our existance and we must first console ourselves before we can truly nurture our newly proclaimed partner and life together.

You are truly welcome here and know that you have taken the first steps towards acceptance. Where the breakdown often happens now is in our inability to trust. Once we feel that dishonestly has reared its ugly head we let our imginations run wild and question the honesty factor in everything. I encourage you to use this forum as a resource in your journey as a partner of someone who is being as honest as they can about who they are.

My best to both of you, Linda

[Shelly Preston]

Yeah. I feel like these opinions I have about him going out dressed as someone else will never change. Frankly, I think that I don't really need to change how I feel about it. I'm still with him. I know 'Leah' would like it if I accepted him whole heartedly and understood everything. Then again, I would like it if he did none of this. We can't always get what we want.

But I'm here, and I'm trying. Some days I cry for hours. Other I'm fine.

Yesterday we want shoe shopping. It's was 'Leah's first time. He got his first pair of lady shoes. Everyone should congratulate him for it. :) He was very brave.



Congratulations !!! not to him on getting the shoes but to you for being with him when he bought them.

Crossdressing is not the easiest subject to come to terms with.

It takes time and patience and even then it may never be enough to understand it all.

The fact you are here is a big step I hope we can answer all your questions

[Di]

sobe1ove.....Hon you said..... I don't have to right to question you guys or to not agree with what you think.
Of course you do...thats what makes this such a terrific forum....bouncing ideas and opinions back and forth.
And then you added
And anyway, who cares what I think? One of my main points is just that. Who cares what anyone thinks but yourselves? And your 'significant other'.

Right on to that...it is all about the two of you...what is right for one couple is not for another....and you being here speaks volumes...you will find what works for you both.


And I posted ....REASONS? How can anyone else answer YOUR reasons. because I was trying to say...tell her...what you feel...not what others think...

Glad you are here with us:hugs:

[janedoe311]

Yes it is dishonest. Or it is not. It depends on how you act, portray yourself. Both MTF and FTM have had affairs and did not tell their partner the truth. That is not nice and dishonest. It hurts people.

Yes if you go to a bar to pick up guys and do not tell them that you are a guy, that is dishonest.

TS/TS is not really crossdressing even before SRS, because they are women that have the wrong plumbing. But they have to be honest as well because a partner would not see them that way.

Now for the general public. Yes most probably feel that any crossdresser that is “pretending” to be the posited gender is dishonest. So if that bothers you then you have a problem, because that will not change in a long time if ever.

If you can CD without trying to pass ie voice, makeup etc then more power to you. I personally do not like the stares , comments and name calling so that is not my thing but some CD’ers do not care.

The way I look at it is what they do not know will not hurt them. Since you do not have to drop your pants (to prove gender) to enter a womens restroom I suspect most people really do not care if you are not really a women as long as you behave yourself.

So you feel guilty? Just look at why are you crossdressing? Are you really a women in a man’s body? Or just a man that needs to get out his female side once in a while?

You have to decide on what you think you are and the reasons for CD’ing.

[KimberlyS]

Leah and others just a few questions and thoughts.

Is a GG that wears makeup being dishonest by covering up her true looks?

Is a person with neatly styled hair being dishonest?

Is a person that colors their hair being dishonest?

Is a person that wears clothes to emphasize their good body features being dishonest?

Is a GG that wears breast enhancers being dishonest? They were not invented for CDers.

Is a person that gets plastic surgery to enhance their looks being dishonest?

Is a person who gets breast enhancement being dishonest?

Is a person who gets liposuction being dishonest?

Is a person who has a face lift being dishonest?

Is a person who gets a hair piece being dishonest?

Is a person wearing a push up bra being dishonest?

Is a gal or guy that wears a girdle to slim their waist to make them look better being dishonest?

Is someone that wears expensive clothes but can not afford them being dishonest?

Is wearing clothes being dishonest by covering up our bodies so others can not see?

Is a rich person that lives like a bum being dishonest?

Is not telling people about how much money you make dishonest?

Is not telling others about your sex life make you dishonest?

Is a person that does not tell you all the details about what they did last night being dishonest?

Is a non-cder that is into porn that does not come out and tell you about it being dishonest?

If a person will not tell you in detail what they have on under their clothes, are they being dishonest?

....... and many more

Many things in life are private. It does not mean we are hiding them or being dishonest. There is no reason for others to know all of the little details about you and your life or your relationship with your spouse/GF/SO. I do hope that you spouse/SO knows more that the rest of us. Private can also be relative to who you are or what group you belong to. I.E. family may know things strangers do not. Work may know things that you can not tell your wife.

My CDing is private to my wife and I and some close friends. But my CDing is known about to many far from home that I run into. They are strangers that I will most likely never ever see again and I am not doing anything illegal or hurtful. I just maybe a like strange or bizarre to them. But I think sitting in a chair all weekend watching a game every weekend plus is bizarre and a waste of time, along with other things people do.

[DeeInGeorgia]

And the answer to why people do all the things they do in KimberlyS' list is

They do it to feel good about themselves. The 16 year old girl that has breast enhancement surgery had it done to feel better about herself. That is why we do what we do.

Dee

[Fab Karen]

REASONS? How can anyone else answer YOUR reasons.
I was in general saying because that is how you feel inside and need to express yourself....and you are being honest to her about your feelings.
There are as many reasons as there are cd's and tg's........so you are asking for reasons that will fly with her....:Angry3:

Why a fake name? Why fake boobe? Why fake anything?......... A simple answer might be so you can present as you feel you are inside.

It would require more of an answer than that to the wife- the big fear of the GG partner is either: you're transsexual & literally want to be a woman, or: you really want to be with men. It would take a lot of talking things out to allay such fears- in some cases it might take discussion with a couples therapist.
I'd equate it to personal expression ( a much deeper expression than most, but then there are people who do all kinds of body piercings for example), it makes me feel good. Some women enjoy very short hair, & maybe wearing something like a leather jacket & boots with jeans. Maybe they don't wear a bra. Maybe they hate make-up. That doesn't make them any less a woman, or necessarily lesbian.

[Tree GG]

Sobe, there are going to be many points that CDs & SOs will never agree on.

#1. Women wearing jeans are NOT CDing - functionality and appropriateness to activity have nothing to do with gender expression. IMO, they need to pull up their big girl panties and get over it - unisex clothing does not indicate CD or TG. Most are not trying to pretend they're opposite their birth gender (FtM excluded) It's the CD stereotypical view of feminine fashion from the pink fog they're spouting when they say that :lol:

#2. Dishonesty doesn't have to measurably hurt someone to still be dishonesty. It's still a denial of the truth - whatever that self-truth may be. I don't believe the original thread asked who was being hurt, it asked if "passing" by a CD was dishonest. IMO, yes it is dishonest to the general public and disrespectful to their awareness. (IMO 99% of general population don't want or need to know any more than this is a guy presenting as a girl - most will looked surprised for a moment and move on. Unfortunately there is a 1% dangerous element out there that has to be considered)

#3. I had to laugh when I read that wearing makeup, bras & "beauty" enhancing garments was dishonest. Well, duh! Was anyone paying attention in the 60's and when the women's movement was pushing for the ERA in the 70's? Yes, it is dishonest - misrepresenting the goods, if you will. Just depends on where your priorities lie. Do you want other people to think you look good, or do you want to be honest and natural. Notice both are based on the same thing - other people's perceptions and judgements.

#4. SO's shouldn't feel their feminity is endangered or that their guy has changed (assuming the arrival of CDing after the relationship is well established). IMO, SO's should feel every darned feeling they feel, acknowledge them and not be afraid to express those feelings to the person they love - whether the feelings continue or not is a different story. CD's are so sensitive & vulnerable when coming out (understandably so) that it's difficult to be supportive or able to explain their intent (they don't know at first). It's like the wounded holding up the infirmed for awhile. Takes some deep strength and patience from both sides.

Yes, it's greedy. Who do they think they are expecting the best of both worlds? I already have girlfriends, I don't want another one, I signed up for a boyfriend. What, if any, of our established roles are you wanting to change and how?

The questions go on and on and on with different answers from different couples as is best for them. Keep asking and talking about your issues, and listening and talking about his. You'll get there. :hugs:

[Brianna Lovely]

Depends on what you are looking for. Most of us want a positive self image and feedback from not only our appearance but also our interactions with others (going shopping, out in public, etc.). I used to be a second persona as Ericka but now, I'm pretty much the same person no matter what I look like. For myself a lot of it was about bringing out my feminine feelings, not being afraid of them and embracing them. The "second persona" is one of many vehicles to use to accomplish that. When all is said and done, we are still ourselves anyway.:happy: Sal


:hugs:
I agree with what Salandra has said.
I would like to add, that wearing fem clothing, makes me feel more like myself. Am I more of a man or woman, depending on how I'm dressed? No, I'm still myself, but I'm feeling pretty, and I like that.

[Brianna Lovely]

REASONS? How can anyone else answer YOUR reasons.
I was in general saying because that is how you feel inside and need to express yourself....and you are being honest to her about your feelings.
There are as many reasons as there are cd's and tg's........so you are asking for reasons that will fly with her....:Angry3:

Why a fake name? Why fake boobe? Why fake anything?......... A simple answer might be so you can present as you feel you are inside.

You've touched on something that was one of my biggest struggles in my own self acceptence.

"How do I show other people, that I'm different, inside? How can I express how I really feel?"

My fem personality seems to be acceptable, if I'm wearing a skirt. Otherwise, people might think I'm "swisshy", in drab, being 6' tall and 200 lbs., swisshy seems, out of place, giggle.

[EmmaJane TS]

Hi Sobe,

For me it's a question of WHO you are being dishonest to. I do feel I have a very strong need to CD and if I denied this fact then I'm being dishonest to myself which I feel is the greater sin (quote to thine own self be true). I do agree with everybody else in that you do have a right to express your opinion and I welcome your posts on this forum.

I hope you both work it out and can come to a comprimise over Leah's CD'ing.

Hugs and kisses,

EmmaJ.

[Fab Karen]

[QUOTE=Tree GG;830911]Sobe, there are going to be many points that CDs & SOs will never agree on.

#1. Women wearing jeans are NOT CDing - functionality and appropriateness to activity have nothing to do with gender expression. IMO, they need to pull up their big girl panties and get over it - unisex clothing does not indicate CD or TG. Most are not trying to pretend they're opposite their birth gender (FtM excluded) It's the CD stereotypical view of feminine fashion from the pink fog they're spouting when they say that :lol:

I don't see things as black or white- I don't see women in jeans as crossdressed, but it wasn't that long ago a woman wearing pants WAS considered crossdressing. Society changed the rules for women. Men didn't get the same choice. Personally I can enjoy female clothes without make-up & the hair ( wig in my case ), but I feel very feminine wearing make-up & looking my prettiest and so do many GG's.
Is functionality always black & white? Is it wrong for a woman to wear a dress to see a movie? Wear pants to a fancy dinner? You wouldn't wanna run a race in heels, but that is a choice more of comfort than fashion.

Just adding something to think about. :hugs:

[Julie York]

Hi, I'm Leah's partner.

3. I personally don't understand how pretending to be someone you're not is being more honest. You may feel a connection with elements of being a woman, but you aren't one. Pretending to be *anything* that you arent is dishonest..

(Tell that to Robert De Niro.)


I had a Huuuge reply for you, but I couldn't be bothered after I'd typed it and edited it three times and it still wasn't right.

The short version is.....You don't get it.

What you really mean in your post is all between the lines of what you wrote.

What you really wrote is "It scares me. I am not comfortable with it because I just don't get it. And it scares me."

You are right. It isn't honest pretending to be something you are not.

But it is your definition of NOT that is the problem.

What if....for example..I was someone who was born male but had such a broad imagination and sense of self that I wanted to express ideas and expressions outside that fixed category that society and history gave me. Would I be dishonest to do that?

[Melanie R]

I have heard from several ministers that being crossdressed is deceiving someone to think and believe you are a woman. My response is what would happen with many people if I upfront told those around me that I am a man who is expressing femininity through my feminine attire. Some would say I am a sick person. Others would think I am gay. Others would say this lifestyle is immoral. What lifestyle? When this has happened to me it was an opportunity to educate people about transgendered persons. Sometimes I say that when I am in male drab I am crossdressing and tryiing to act like a man. Is that also being deceitful?

[janedoe311]

There have been many skits. You know the guy that gets married and that night he goes into the bathroom. She takes off her breast forms, makeup, false nose, false eyelashes, false teeth, contacts lenses, wig and corset. He comes out of the bathroom and she looks like something the cat would leave under the rock. He leaves screaming! That is not seen as dishonest by some. But a guy gets on a dress to have a night as a woman once in a while and he is dishonest! A little bias would you say?

Men and women dye hair,I am premature grey and have dyed mine for 10 years. Or wigs, or breast forms and padded bras and corsets (men wear them too). Is that dishonest? Some would say it is.

[Sally24]

That's one of the definitions of Dishonest. Most meanings do involve a victim to be true. Are we concealing things, of course! But no more than anyone else. And to say that we don't care what other people think is just foolish. We all care to some extent what other people think. Why am I not wearing my bell bottoms and polyester shirts from 1978? (outside of the fact that my wife threw them away). I still like them but no one else does. You don't go to a wedding wearing your bathing suit even if the weather is scorching. Partly out of respect for the occasion but also because of the reaction you would get from other people. We all conform more or less to our society's social norms.

You can express yourself and your opinion all you want here. Just realize that we are of many variations and not necessarily the same. Greedy, to experience all you can? I don't agree. I think this comes from not understanding the basic core of most of us here. We feel that we are at least 50% or more woman (emotionally or genderwise). Short of being a Transexual and transitioning to living as a woman, then dressing is about the only way that we can be "honest" with ourselves. If we don't go beyond casual interaction with others than this is more of a personal thing and I don't believe we are being dishonest with those around us.

[veronicag48]

No, it's not dishonest, because nobody is losing anything or getting hurt in any way at all. If I want to go out pretending to be a woman, who is the victim of that "dishonesty"? Has anyone been hurt by virtue of the fact that they saw what they thought was a woman but was really a man? I don't see how.

If you disagree with me, then odds are you're going to bring up the bathroom scenario. That it is dishonest for us to go into a women's bathroom. I disagree there, too. If we do not look at other women and do not see anything we shouldn't be seeing, there is no dishonesty. If we do look at the other women, then this is dishonest, but it is not because of the crossdressing. This is an action committed wholely independent of the crossdressing, just like if we were to shoplift clothes while dressed, this has nothing to do with the fact that we ARE dressed, it is just something we did at the time we happened to be dressed.

Does this make sense?

Well the bathroom scenario should be mentioned because when you enter the bathroom you never know the age of the GGs in there and if someone doubts your gender and younger GGs are present then you really got a "breast form in the ringer" . That's the only thing that bothers me. Unless you are in an environment that you know is strictly adult 0.02

[Dixie]

Ok so it's dishonest for a man to dress as a woman, but it's liberating for a woman to dress like a man,....this is giving me a headache it just does not compute:heehee: .

[NewBetty]

You can actually make the arguement that you're being more honest when you express yourself as you want or need to.
That's GREAT! Also it reminds me of the "Bronco Billy" philosophy about re-inventing yourself. For some reason I love that movie.

[Girlieboy]

I think it all depends upon how one defines "honesty" and "dishonesty". Most certainly, if crossdressing is dishonest, it means that I have have been dishonest for precisely fifty-one years!

So am I going to suddenly become an honest girl? No way!:rant:

[Joanne f]

You can actually make the arguement that you're being more honest when you express yourself as you want or need to.

I agree with you if you are being honest about how you feel, that is not being dishonest,
joanne f

[tanya3]

i have to agree with sharon. i felt i was being dishoest before i told my wife .now that everything is out in the open i feel more relived . hiding things from the one you love is dishonest . as far as going out dressed, who cares .

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

We all tell "little white lies" from time to time, but thats not dis-honest . each of us is a differant individual ( be it c/d GG/ TG etc etc) .
How we conduct ourselves & react to the c/d is totaly differant for everyone. perhaps its finding your own "comfort" levels with it. :rolleyes:

[kerrianna]

Dishonest?

No. It's not. Not at all.

There are many many levels, reasons, types of crossdressing, all of them expressed and explored on this forum...and none of them are dishonest.

A yearning, a desire, a wishing, a wanting, an exploration...none of these are dishonest.

[BlUeDrAgOn]

i have to agree with sharon. i felt i was being dishoest before i told my wife .now that everything is out in the open i feel more relived . hiding things from the one you love is dishonest . as far as going out dressed, who cares .

I agree with you in part, but my dilemma is to choose between dishonesty and suffering. I don't see CD'ing as bad as cheating, for example. It's a secret and as we all know it's very misunderstood by society (wives included in many cases). So, it's a huge step to go out of the closet and tell them openly. It may sometimes end up in divorce. That's what I'm afraid of. I prefer to try and supress my needs than to lose my wife. And I believe it would make her suffer. So, for now, I'm not thinking about telling her. I don't feel I'm being dishonest by being a CD. I'm just keeping her from getting hurt.

[KimberlyS]

I've been hearing from my partner lately that X-dressing is dishonest. That it's playing pretend since I want to misrepresent myself as a woman when I am not.

She doesn't understand why I want to take on another name, another set of mannerisms, another voice, or augment my body (like breastforms would do). Why can't I just go out and wear a skirt and makeup and be the dude most people know me as?

IMO, the Dishonesty in CDing depends on how you look at CD and what you are doing. I am a guy with many feminine attributes. Some CDers feel like they are two people. Some feel they are a girl but can live with their male body and dress part time male and part time female. Then there are those who feel they are woman and hate their bodies. These are just a few as there are many different types of CDers along the spectrum. We are all different and see things differently.

For those that feel they are or some part of them is a woman, I do not feel that they are dishonest with their cding and being who they feel they are and they need to be honest with those that ask or question who they are.

For myself, I am a male and like my male self. But as long as I can remember I have been a mix of masculine and feminine qualities. My personal preference would be to never have to hide my male self when I am wearing feminine things. But I am realistic and know where I live, if I was a guy who wore feminine clothes life would be hell for my wife and kids, both of our jobs and even possibly life could be at stake. So when I am out in public I am either presenting a male image or a female image that society can handle. And when in female image my goal is to obscure my male identity to protect my family. But even with that, I do not try to pass, I try to blend in with where I am at.
And I know I do not pass but am more accepted or tolerated based on the questions, conversations and looks from other people. I do not lie if asked if I am a guy. And I usually am using my male credit card pay for many things and ID to verify my age or use of the CC. So similar to one other response to your post. Yes at times you could say I say or present little white lies looking more feminine that I normally do. But the main reason is for the protection of my family. If I did not have a family, IMO things would be different. I would most likely be out as a guy who wears a mix of male and female clothes. And yes my wife and I have discussed this and that is where I got the I will present a male or female image that society can handle when out in public. I am not committing a crime and I am not trying to make anyone believe I am someone else. I guess you could say I am surprising other people on how feminine I can look if they happen to notice me or interact with me. Otherwise I am just another face in the landscape of life.

But I do agree also with your wife. There are those that are being dishonest about their CDing. But every group has their better people and those they may wish were not part of their group.

As for pretending. We all pretend to be lots of things that we are not. The pretending is ok. But often there is a fine line where pretend can become dishonest, lies, and deceit.

You and your wife need to focus on who and what you are and not others. Your wife needs to be able to believe you and trust you.

[yingyang]

Honesty or dishonesty is a judgment in the eye of the beholder. Crossdressing is not, I think, dishonest. It's what we do. It's a choice. If we have to deal with the judgements of others, then we must accept it. Behavior is not dishonest, only words can lie.
Mary

[battybattybats]

Hmmm.... well there is truth and there is truth.

People who'd like to explore this further might like to start with the word Metaphysics but here are some simple notions to think about...

All faith is dishonest, without proof there is only belief and conjecture, belief and conjecture that goes against evidence is deliberatly false, where it has little or no proof it is still deception, where there is evidence it is no longer belief, faith etc but science. Therefore all religion is deception.. if you follow that logic.

All evidence is dishonest. Senses can be fooled (see optical illusions), one's innermost thoughts cannot be trusted as truth (see hallucinations), Experience is subjective... therfore there can be no objectivbe proof... so all science is flawed and therfore deception.

So there is no way of determining any absolute truth, therefore all opinion, all thought, all evidence is only 'possibly' true and as it is not true to consider that anything is true unless it is absolutely true then everything is itself deception... There is no reality, there is no truth.

Unless of course there is in fact a real world that we can only experience through a veil of flawed senses.. we don't see heat but we can measure infra-red, we can feel heat with our skin etc. Therfore there is a reality but we may never experience it directly...
These ideas are thousands of years old.. get thee to a book on Plato, Socrates and Aristotle! LOL

Here is another possibility. We wear clothes not just to protect us from the elements but to decorate ourselves, we wear make-up not just to look younger but to decorate ourselves, we build buildings not just for practical purposes but for pleasing or interesting appearance. Why do we wear jewlry or paint or draw? It seems to be human nature to want to change the world around us in a way that reflects our inner world and/or stimulates our senses in a way that is pleasing (or even in ways that are not).

So from that way of looking at things all of civilisation has been (at least in part) driven by the need to express that world within and to transform the world around us for our pleasure (or for our enlightenment). In that case crossdressing isn't lying, its art. Yep, art and not in a crass comerical way but perhaps for some it could be a deep spiritual exploration of transformation of the world outside and of the inner world of the self.

[Satrana]

1. Dishonesty doesn't need victims. Even if you aren't hurting anyone with your dishonesty, it's still dishonest. True but then everyone is being dishonest to each other all the time since none of us display the real me, we all use public masks which can differ in character depending who we are speaking to. In reality the male Leah is being just as more dishonest by hiding away his feminine side. Leah would be living a lie if he did not crossdress.


3. I personally don't understand how pretending to be someone you're not is being more honest. You may feel a connection with elements of being a woman, but you aren't one. Pretending to be *anything* that you arent is dishonest. We are all part masculine/part feminine but society does not care for anything inbetween. It is difficult to be an inbetween, much easier to pretend to be a woman so that everyone knows and understands what behavior is expected. If Leah is not a transsesxual then yes he is not being totally "honest" in emulating a woman, but nor is he being honest in emulating a man. You may desire to still think of him as a man but he never was and will never be.


4. Something bothers me about what 'Leah' says. He says that he doesn't feel himself unless others treat him that way. I think it's sad that anyone needs attention from strangers in order to feel like themselves. I don't base who I am on what others think of me. The opinions of strangers don't mean one bit. Is that really true? Would you be happy to be known as the partner of a crossdresser? Will you happily walk hand in hand down a public street with Leah en femme?


5. He mentioned that I think it's selfish you y'all want to experience the best things from each gender. The better way to say it is that I feel it's greedy. At least from what 'Leah' says about his own feelings. He's jealous that women get treated differently from men, so he wants to experience that, too. Greedy. If it is greedy of men to want that available to women , then it is greedy of women to want that available to men. Lets roll back all the advances of feminism so that women and men can have distinct and separate roles in society again. If you believe in equality then that means equality for all with no "but's" attached.


I'm sort of afraid that after this post I might be banned from the boards. I just get this vibe that when I get the privelege to post, as a GG, that I don't have to right to question you guys or to not agree with what you think. The more you question then the more answers you will get, it shows you care enough to try to understand which is more than many SOs ever bother to do. As for agreement most crossdressers cannot agree among themselves what it all means since our personal experiences have different meanings. We are not a uniform group so ultimately you will need to listen and trust Leah alone as only she knows what her crossdressing actually means to her.

[Leah B]

Satrana nailed it.

I should say that there I do believe crossdressing IS often deceptive, but it is not nessecarily dishonest. I'm not pretending to be Leah, I AM Leah. Just as I act one way with one friend and another way with another, Leah is a persona. Unlike most personae, however, she's not so integrated with D___ (my real name).

The deception occurs because I wish to pass as a woman, when I am not. Without getting into why, suffice it to say that i believe this is a necessary aspect of my crossdressing.

Greed is not an element for me. If any of the seven sins apply, it's envy. As Satrana said, was it greedy for feminists to demand "male" rights? There were those who believed back then as you do now: that mens and women's rights balanced out, and that women were overstepping by asking for what was not theirs.

My Crossdressing is not a social movement, but it is my attempt to gain what I am denied access to (and I DO believe this access is denied, even if not in the strictest terms).

[Kate Simmons]

We all face this challenge individually Leah. It's the right to express ourselves and feelings as being part of who we really are. We have to make the decision to either abdicate that right or take ownership of it. It's a tough call but mostly our true "sense of self" is at stake. It's hard for others to understand that sometimes, especially those we love.:happy: Sal

[Nicole Summers]

it's all about finding out who you really are. Every child experiments and explores the world as they discover themselves. What's dishonest is to tell them it's wrong to feel a certain way because it doesn't make a good war for the king.

[psion128]

Here is my 2 cents girl. By not xdressing, you are being dishonest to yourself. Not to other ppl. U have a right to express yourself and it falls under the category of freedom of speech. I'm sure others have the same opinion or something similar to what I just said.

[StephanieH]

:2c: IMHO, you're not being dishonest, on the contrary, you're being extremely honest in telling her who you are and where you stand on this. What could be more honest about that? And who among us anywhere doesn't have some activity or hobby that allows for a bit of an escape from reality? That's the point of most leisure activity, is it not?

As for augmenting, or being someone you're not, at the risk of being harsh, that's a dangerous argument for her to use. Afterall, if she sticks to that arguement, she shouldn't use makeup any more, she shouldn't ever color her hair, and she darn sure better not use a push-up, shove-out bra or colored stockings - all of that stuff certainly alters the natural appearance and makes you into someone who you really are not.

Just be careful, be honest with her, and don't hide things. If that can be done, there's no shame in this and nothing she should legitimately take offense at. Take care and God bless!
Randi :happy:

[sobe1ove GG]

A lot of people have come on and said, 'well, then girls who wear make up is dishonest' and so forth.

Yes, it is. Just because everyone is dishonest to a degree doesn't mean that all dishonesty is okay. It's like saying, 'well everyone has lied at some point, so all lieing is okay, because everyone does it.'

The way I see it is, it's a personal decision for each individual of how much 'dishonesty' is too much. Each person has their own moral decision on that. For me, my morals say that presenting yourself as a genetic girl when you aren't goes past the acceptable amount of deception. Now, that might change at some point. I might grow to understand my boyfriend better and change my opinions. As of now, though, my own opinions point me to feel that that is too much deception.

[Leah B]

There are degrees of deception. Makeup on a woman is deceptive, because it obscures and exaggerates. Makeup on a man may be potentially more deceptive because it does the same things, but with the added potential of making others confuse his sex.

So no, these two things are not the same but they are related. I do WANT people to think I am a woman when I go out, so I'm intentionally deceiving. I don't have a problem with this, because I do not believe I am comitting any serious harm. Anybody I am close to, I would want to know the truth, because that CAN cause harm.

There is a degree of moral ambiguity here, so I know that I must be mindful of how my actions impact others.

[EmmaJane TS]

To Sobe and Leah,

I just hope the pair of you can come to a comprise and wish you all the best for the future :love:

[Satrana]

There are degrees of deception. Makeup on a woman is deceptive, because it obscures and exaggerates. Makeup on a man may be potentially more deceptive because it does the same things, but with the added potential of making others confuse his sex.

So no, these two things are not the same but they are related. I do WANT people to think I am a woman when I go out, so I'm intentionally deceiving. I don't have a problem with this, because I do not believe I am comitting any serious harm. Anybody I am close to, I would want to know the truth, because that CAN cause harm.

There is a degree of moral ambiguity here, so I know that I must be mindful of how my actions impact others.


The other angle to this is just how deceptive you actually are....meaning very few of us can ever pull off passing as a woman close up, especially when we start speaking. Our deception only works at a distance.

If strangers are passing you in the street and believe you are a woman, so what? What does it matter? As Sobe herself said, we should not be concerned about what strangers think. There are people who are naturally androgenous, should they be forced to make their gender more obvious for the comfort of others? How we present ourselves in a public setting is our own business and is not dishonest.

For me it only becomes a moral question when we are interacting directly with people and they (unlikely) believe you are a real woman. Since I don't alter my voice or will ever have facial surgery this will never happen. I am happy to be treated like a woman, I don't actually want to deceive people that I actually am. For me this is no different from say a woman entering a male dominated workplace and asking to be treated like one of the guys. By crossdressing I am announcing I want to be treated like one of the girls. Is this bad?

I also think it is much easier for other people to think and react to you as a woman if that is what you are presenting, even if they know you are a genetic man. If I present as something inbetween, others will be confused as to how they should treat me -as a man or as a woman and this can be very off-putting for them due to their uncertainty.

People don't want to learn how to behave around a transgendered person, they just want to treat you either as a man or as a woman. We are not able to change this outlook so to lessen others discomfort and to address my own needs, emulating a woman makes sense.

[Echo Logical]

I think that the concept of dishonesty is contextually innapropriate.

Many others have pointed out the thousand little lies we as human beings tell, like;coloring your hair, dressing up, dressing down, etc.

If we accept that these things are "dishonest", or "dishonest" with consequence, then it is plain that I lie to my mom all the time by chossing not to curse around her since in other contexts I have been know to let fly with the occasional f-bomb.

We all put on airs, whether it be by behaving in a professional manner while at work then getting rowdy with our friends at a game, it is not so much a matter of being dishonest as it is a matter of being constexually appropriate. When I behave one way at working, and another way with friends, the only manner in which I would be dishonest is by ommision by not pouring out every little aspect of my personality at every moment.

As far as behaving like a woman, much of the feminine behavior is a social construct. Certainly genetic factors play a role in our behavior, but I highly doubt wearing makeup, carrying a purse, or many other of the "Feminine" Behaviors are genetically hardwired to actual physical gender. So it might just be possible that a Genetic Male may also carry within him, for whatever reason, aspects of his personality that society considers feminine. Is it then "dishonest" for him to display those behaviors? Is it ever appropriate. Is it wrong that in a professional setting he is Mr. Smith, amongst his friends he is Jack, and when wearing high heels he is Jeannie?

I supsect that most people contain far more in their personalities than can be contained in such a small box as a gender role.

[tall_brianna]

I would love to just put on some makeup and a skirt and "be the dude everyone knows me as" (in makeup and a skirt, of course):D But the truth is that I've experimented and in-between makes people uncomfortable. Whether I am the source of the discomfort is uncertain but.... I don't feel dishonest. I try to keep it real - or a least as real as most GGs. Nothing more than a padded bra to accentuate the top and no padding or anything else below. I only wish I had the natural hair.

[Sam-antha]

[quote=Satrana;835726]

very few of us can ever pull off passing as a woman close up,...

If strangers are passing you in the street and believe you are a woman, so what?.....

We should not be concerned about what strangers think. end quotes]

This sort of puts the query in a nutshell. Strangers passing you in the street do not think of the person they are passing. They see clothes, a moving human shape and colours.

End of story without deception.

[Kimberly]

Sure, I can. But that doesn't mean she'll accept that. I'm looking for your reasons why here. Why a fake name? Why fake boobs? Why fake anything?
As I write these words, I know exactly how much denial will go on about this... but Leah, these behaviours all coincide with mine - but the main difference is, I've accepted that I want to portray a member of the opposite sex.

On some level, you must agree, we often dress - and do everything you described - because we love the feeling it gives us of getting as close as we can to a woman. This means, again on some level, that you are in fact removing your male persona for a moment to make way for a female one -- and on this basis I can see why your partner is upset, if she wants her husband to remain who he is.

If you did just wear the clothes of a woman, without trying to alter yourself then your partner would have what she wanted. So the question to ask yourself, and no one else, is:

What difference does it make to the way I feel if I remove the pretense that I am female?

[Lovely Rita]

I would not say being a woman is so much better than being a man but, at leaste for me, it is more about being authentic. Being who I really am. Not hiding or pretending the fact that I love ladies clothes. For me to hide this and pretend it is not there is more dishonest.

Happy to be me. Loving to be a crossdresser every bit of it.

Thanks for letting me share

[Leah B]

SOme people have said here things along the lines of "It's okay if a woman dresses like a man, but not the other way around," which is true. Here's the thing though, many of us crossdress not to appear as men in women's clothing, but to actually appear AS women. When non-CD women "crossdress," they're not trying to pass. They're just wearing pants. Similarly, I could wear a skirt, and leave my beard, and I wouldn't pass. But I WANT to fool people.

Passing IS deceptive. Even if I considered my gender female (I don't), my sex is still male. By passing, I'm sending a signal that my sex is female, even if that's not really the point.

[battybattybats]

Isn't it about time we gave up on the idea of gender, and sexuality, as poler opposites? Isn't it about time we recognise that there is a gender spectrum? This subject can't be viewed so simplisticly as (though I hate the phrase) 'black or white'. If a worldview, or a theory, goes against the evidence then it must be wrong and should be discarded.

We stopped forcing people to display their ethnic or national heritage in particular dress or signs. Why must gender be enforced?

And so what if we want to appear to be female to be treated as female? How does that harm anyone? If we agree to sleep with someone or date someone without telling them that we have apparatus they might not be expecting that is unethical and also stupidly risky. Beyond that what harm is there beyond risking destroying false and harmful beliefs by thwarting social conventions and mores. Personally I think anyone who does that for a good, ethical cause is a good person. Feminists who marched when they were supposed to stay silent and defer to men? Good people! Aboriginal people who faught against discrimination by swimming in 'white only' pools or refusing to sit in the black section of the bus? Good people! People born with a Y chromosome who wish to be treated as though they had a second X chromasome (and vice versa!) and dress in the way that feels good and right to them? good people!

Isn't the badness of deception dependant on both the motivation and the effect? If someone is being decptive to trick someone into having sex with the same gender that would be bad but how many of us do that? Otherwise where is the actual harm? What is it about gender that is so precious that it requires such protection and must not be shared?

If someone feels female some of the time or all of the time on the inside isn't it deceptive to portray only maleness on the outside? Isn't it really about who we are inside that's supposed to count? Isn't it shallow or worse to insist otherwise? Where is the truth about someone anyway, how they think and feel, what is in their head and heart or what is between their legs?

Isn't the act of expressing femininity about wanting to express what is inside and wanting to be treated for what we are inside not what is on the outside?

Sometimes I feel male, sometimes female and most of the time somewhere in between. Why should I be restricted to looking 100% one or the other? And if I do feel at a given time totally female why should I not dress that way just because I do not want to be that way all the time? Wouldn't that be the true deception?

[Josephine 1941]

OK I am going to coment again. [ IS A SOUL MALE OR FEMALE ] I think that we keep coming back until we do it right. WHAT RIGHT IS I DON'T KNOW. So what ever body we end up with on our return there is left over from our last life. I have got by the female cloths or male . They are mine an I enjoy wearing what I like ,not as much as like too of course. Great coments I enjoyed reading them all.

Josephine

[battybattybats]

But can a soul be 60% male and 40% female?

[Leah B]

Yeah, I definitely don't think it's generally a harmful deception. There are cases though...

[Satrana]

The problem is not with us but with everyone else....:D

Although it is clear in our heads that we are in fact being truthful and honest in displaying how we feel and how we want to be treated when we crossdress, to everyone else our crossdressing is considered a simple deception - ie a man dressing as a woman so that he becomes sexually attractive to other men.

Even if the other person, like an SO, knows about the crossdressing community and had intereacted with us, this imagined linkage between homosexuality and crossdressing remains ever present. It seems the only sensible reason to explain why. Some cds dont think answering the why question is important to them but it is important to non-cds who want to know why we do this if they are being asked to accept or tolerate it. And since they do not believe in a gender spectrum, either we are transsexual or we are gay men in denial.

We will always hit this brick wall until society learns and appreciates the gender spectrum, learns that this applies to everyone. Only then will crossdressing no longer be considered a mystery or be linked to homosexuality or be considered deceptive.

[Kate Simmons]

I dunno,everyone, it seems, is a sh*****se lawyer or psychologist these days and we cannot conceive of someone doing something simply because they like doing it. There HAS to be an ulterior motive. Our society thrives on ulterior motives.
The simple truth is, some days I like wearing my guy clothes and some days I just want to put on a dress, wig and makeup and look pretty because it makes me feel good. If that makes me someone who is being deceptive, then I guess I'm guilty as charged although that wasn't my intention. Amazing what you learn these days from others who are experts in YOUR feelings. Now I'm wondering what my real motivation for liking pizza is.:p

[Valerie]

What a wonderful photograph of what I take to be Sobe & Leah's colorful toenails in quiet contemplation and conversation!

Congratulations, Sobe & Leah!

Honest or dishonest feet? Just beautiful and loving.:love:

Valerie

[Lanore]

If you are getting married and hide your desires, that's dishonest. Isn't marriage about sharring? Why go through life with a little bag in the attic that only you know about.

Lanore

[Glenda]

Society has defined what is normal and expected. Anything other than the expected norm is wrong. A lot of people believe this. A lot of people don't. It is not dishonest to question what should be normal. It is necessary.

So Leah and Sobe, are you looking for someone to take your side? All of this talk of dishonesty, greed, etc.? I had a girlfriend who thought embarassing me publicly would make me quit dressing. To that point, I was primarily in the closet other than going out at Haloween or theme skates. It didn't stop me. What it did was bring me out of the closet.

I try to pass most of the time. Sometimes if I'm just going to the corner store for bread or milk I'm not concerned about passing. I'm just running an errand. It feels good to get dressed and move in public without people knowing whether you're a man or woman. You get a lot less attention. If you go out to interact with others then you will not pass. My friends can say I look nice but they know I'm a man. The clerk at the counter may not know because my time spent there is limited. I'm a customer to be served and then I leave. Many do not realize that I'm a man. Some do. But if I spent any extended time with them they all would know. So passing is relative. I'm not trying to be dishonest. Spend time with me and you'll know what I am. Pass me on the street and who knows, or cares?

[Dixie]

How can it be dishonest when you are only expressing your "true" self??

[Melissa A.]

I have to say that I agree with her somewhat. I wear the clothes, but it remains obvious that I am a man, and I think life is much simpler when I do it like that. I also feel I get more acceptance from other people that way.

If that works for you, and brings you happiness, that's wonderful. But for transgendered people like me, that just does'nt work. And we are NOT dishonest. There's a part of me that IS female. I didn't ask for it, but there it is. As a guy, I could no more walk around in a skirt than naked, and feel comfortable. As a girl, I am a girl. I feel female, and act and dress accordingly. Whether or not I am passing, well, that is for another thread, and is irrelevant, truthfully. Having two genders inside you may be inconvenient, alot of work, and a general pain in the butt sometimes. But it's real. Can't tell me it's not. And what is real cannot be dishonest. Finding the courage to be who you are, despite all the STUFF to put up with, is exceedingly honest.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[sobe1ove GG]

Ugh. I wish this thread would just die. I was angry in the first place for him starting it because from the very beginning it was a 'sobe is so horrible' brigade.

Ya know, I'm not as horrible as you all may think.

And I don't think that 'Leah' wanting to show his girly side is dishonest. Nor do I care whether or not strangers are fooled.

My concerns are on a relationship level between me and my boyfriend. They have nothing to do with any of you or of strangers. This is something that we have to work out ourselves.

If 'everyone is different' than you all shouldn't be so compelled to hate on me.

Sobe

[Melissa A.]

Ugh. I wish this thread would just die. I was angry in the first place for him starting it because from the very beginning it was a 'sobe is so horrible' brigade.

Ya know, I'm not as horrible as you all may think.

And I don't think that 'Leah' wanting to show his girly side is dishonest. Nor do I care whether or not strangers are fooled.

My concerns are on a relationship level between me and my boyfriend. They have nothing to do with any of you or of strangers. This is something that we have to work out ourselves.

If 'everyone is different' than you all shouldn't be so compelled to hate on me.

Sobe


Honey, I, for one, don't hate ya! Heck, if ya read my post, I wasn't even answering you directly, as I quoted another post.

Sorry, don't mean to get all defensive and self indulgent. But I guess I just did! Ya should know, though, that I understand what you're saying. Best of luck to ya both.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[sobe1ove GG]

Honey, I, for one, don't hate ya! Heck, if ya read my post, I wasn't even answering you directly, as I quoted another post.

Sorry, don't mean to get all defensive and self indulgent. But I guess I just did! Ya should know, though, that I understand what you're saying. Best of luck to ya both.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:


Yeah I know your post wasn't directed at me. I was more saying to everyone what I feel. This thread is boiling over with negativity toward me. At least it feels that way.

But thanks for being nice, Melissa. :)

[Leah B]

I suppose I should clear the air here, since I went and made this a board issue. I think a lot of you have gotten the wrong impression of Sobe.

I posted this thread after we had had an argument (bad idea, I know), and it wasn't fair to her to bring it here. My intention was to try to get her to understand where I was coming from on this issue, that I felt that even if crossdressing is deceptive, that is is honest on some level. What I didn't intend was for this to be a pile-on Sobe.

CD philosophies aside, she's supportive, and she loves me, and she's going through hell to be with me. We've had our whole lives to sort out crossdressing, and most of us still struggle with it. Sobe's had six months. Six months to learn what it means to be Trans, to be with a Transy, to learm what gender is, and what it means to her and to our relationship, and to relationships in general when one body shares two genders. She's a goddamn hero. She's frustrating sometimes, and prone to say things we might find offensive without actually meaning to (like calling CDing greedy; She admits that the word "greed" implies a concept that she didn't intend), but I still love her (and so should you! Or else.)

[Carin's Wife GG]

If that works for you, and brings you happiness, that's wonderful. But for transgendered people like me, that just does'nt work. And we are NOT dishonest. There's a part of me that IS female. I didn't ask for it, but there it is. As a guy, I could no more walk around in a skirt than naked, and feel comfortable. As a girl, I am a girl. I feel female, and act and dress accordingly. Whether or not I am passing, well, that is for another thread, and is irrelevant, truthfully. Having two genders inside you may be inconvenient, alot of work, and a general pain in the butt sometimes. But it's real. Can't tell me it's not. And what is real cannot be dishonest. Finding the courage to be who you are, despite all the STUFF to put up with, is exceedingly honest.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

it takes tremendous courage to be whole.


Sobe, I certainly do not hate you! You are learning and that learning curve is so steep. I really do feel for you.





Louise.:love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

[Carin]

I have a few frivolous, serious and philosophical opinions on the various topics posted on this thread. I will hold on to those for another time.

One of the cardinal rules in any relationship is that communication is sacred. When the communication becomes a debate and the rules change from rules of communication to rules of debate, the relationship factor gets lost. When you take the debate to a public forum such as this without both parties in agreement to take that step (and sometimes even if they do agree to take that step) someone is very likely going to get hurt. In the context of this thread, Sobe has some perfectly valid opinions in the context of their original discussion (argument). Aired here without that original context, we debate something else, and given the makeup (sic) of this forum that debate is lopsided.

SoBe's hurt is very rational and reasonable. The original (private) context of their discussion was lost to her. :beatup: :frustrated: :Pullhair:


I posted this thread after we had had an argument (bad idea, I know), and it wasn't fair to her to bring it here. My intention was to try to get her to understand where I was coming from on this issue

[battybattybats]

I want to be sure and say that I do not hate anyone at all. :)
:hugs:
Hugs all round, to those I agree with and those I do not.

[Tamara Croft]

I suppose I should clear the air here, since I went and made this a board issue. I think a lot of you have gotten the wrong impression of Sobe.

I posted this thread after we had had an argument (bad idea, I know), and it wasn't fair to her to bring it here. My intention was to try to get her to understand where I was coming from on this issue, that I felt that even if crossdressing is deceptive, that is is honest on some level. What I didn't intend was for this to be a pile-on Sobe. What you did was selfish, bringing a private arguement onto the board is just below the belt and I will not let this discussion go on any longer. You've hurt sobe, you should be ashamed of how she feels now :mad: :mad: