I'm on the GG side. We need to start taking resonsibility for who we are

[michelleupnorth]

I keep hearing that my spouse found out, and I need to purge, and the relationship break-ups that happen over this cross-dressing. I hear it over and over again and it is destructive to live in a relationship that has lies. It makes no wonder that the GG's SO get pissed with us when they find our stuff. They think that we have lied to them for so many years and what else are we lying about. This is something that they should know about. I know it makes it hard after you have been with someone for some time, but, coming out to her will be better instead of waiting for her to find it. It sucks for both of you, perhaps part of the reason relationships don’t last is because people don’t trust the other anymore.

I have been in the situation where I’ve lived with someone and kept it a secret and I purged and then bought more because I can’t stop being who I am. I have ended relationships because I didn’t have the guts to tell them. I’ve been busted and that sucked big time.

I have also been in relationships where I’ve told my partner and guess what the 3 relationships that I told them, they were ok with it. They were curious and wanted to know more. I was honest and that goes along way in a relationship.

If she was doing something behind your back wouldn’t you be upset?

Just my :2c:

OK now let me have it.

[Cheery GG]

Bloody hell Michelle....a cd that talks sense, well done you !

em
x

[Elly]

nothing to let you have, except a cookie... you're absolutely correct, a marrage or any relationship where one party is continualy hiding something from the other is doomed if the dam breaks and all is exposed, it's best to be upfront about it instead of skulking around behind the SOs back, besides sneaking around seems a bit shady, and leaves the SO to wonder what other shady things you are up to while they're out of the house, if you couldn't be up front about something like CD...

[Sheila]

45854

Thanks Michelle

[Emily Ann Brown]

BRAVO !


Emily Ann

[Lanore]

I'm with you Michelle. People need to look at the situation from the other side. What if it were the other way around. Would they approve? Marriage and friendships are supposed to be based on truth. When one keeps a little to themselves, they're in for a big let down and what suprises me is, they can't understand why.

Lanore

[Sheri 4242]

". . . it is destructive to live in a relationship that has lies . . . (t)hey think that we have lied to them for so many years and what else are we lying about. This is something that they should know about."

Okay, I'll let you "have it" as you said: Well said, Michelle, well said!!!!!!! You are absolutely right!!! To use the title of a Billy Joey song, "It's a Matter of Trust." IMHO, a marriage is only as strong as the foundation upon which it is built. Build it on lies and deception, and I don't care how smart you are or how careful you hide your secret, your marriage is built on a foundation that is doomed to crumble!!!

And, most people (men and women) that I know, will, when they find out they have been lied to in a major way, will always wonder, "what else has this person been lying about." Trust is broken -- and broken trust is perhaps one of THE most difficult things to rebuild in a relationship!!!

So there you go: well said, succinctly and accurately!!!

Barb

[Marcie Sexton]

Well put, I have been truthful withmy wife and after some time to hash things out we found a new strength in our relationship...

We are going stronger than ever...but given a choice between my own self satification and my family's happiness, wanna guess who will make the sacrafice...

[Valerie Nicole]

I've always believed this as well. Nice post. I agree 100%. I guess that means I'm also on the GGs' side, lol.

[Kate Simmons]

While I believe it's best to be honest, you have to realize that not all SO's react in the same way. Some will not try to understand and will never accept it no matter what we say or how we feel. We are all different and we all react differently. Yeah, it's best to be honest and hope for the best but be prepared for the worst and all the fallout that comes with it. It's a decision every one of us has to make individually.:happy:

[battybattybats]

I think that many who hide are worried about how their SO will feel. So much so that they would rather hide and lie than risk hurting their partner. The trouble is their partner has a right to decide for themselves. Of course many of us are hiding from ourselves too.

I suspect that many of us crossdressers need to share this with our partners for ourselves and for our partners. That we cannot be whole without doing so and that we cannot be in a relationship in good faith without doing so. Do we have the right to decide to try and protect our partners from the truth rather than to let them make up their own minds how they feel about it? Isn't that like telling a dying person they are fine so they will die in ignorance but without being upset? Is it better to risk losing the person you love by being worthy of that love and not deceiving them and yourselves?

Of course most of us are not entirely (or at all) comfortable with what we are and that can make it near-impossible to share with others. Some of us don't come to terms with it (or even discover it) until after they are well into a comited relationship or marriage so it isn't as easy as being honest upfront. Some like me are as upfront as we can be at the time but from only a limited knowledge and poor understanding of this phenomenon, what it means and how vitaly and deeply important it often is to us.

It's more than just looking at it from the other side a holisic view is neccessary for understanding. Could, for example, some GG's understand better if they knew how much being open and forthright about this is not an easy thing for many of us. That even being honest with ourselves is for some terribly, terribly difficult. That said, what is the point of living skulking in the shadows? What is the point of going through life in an empty shell? What value is there in living a lie of 'normalcy' when normal is clearly a broken concept desperatly needing to be redefined?

To be whole and complete we all have to come to terms with who we are and to present who we are to those we wish to share our lives with because only that is showing a full respect for those you love and for yourself. The risks taken in doing so cannot though be swept away with simplistic rules or judgemental views of others moral decisions. I find it wryly amusing that you have to be able to 'be man enough' to be able to admit to wearing womens clothing.

And why is it so hard? Because we are taught to be uncomfortable with this part of ourselves, we are taught that because of our gender we should be a certain way, fit a certain mold, play a certain role and have certain expectations. If it was more visible and more common around us, if it was more accepted in society, then less and less of us would have this problem and it takes us, not other people but us to change society. We can't wait for others to do it for us. Perhaps we should study at the feet of other great causes for equality and social justice.

Anyone even slightly caught in this dilemma I think should try, if possible, to get quality counselling to help them on the path to self acceptance, and perhaps then to try and be open about who we are (dependant on circumstance of course). I think there needs to be more qualified services for us crossdressers. Perhaps a concerted effort to lobby and educate and expose and guide and support the whole community to create social change.

We come from all walks of life. We spend a good deal on clothes and make-up and such. What would happen if we pooled our resources? If we donated a small portion of our time, our talent, our pantyhose money for the cause?

Ultimately can it be enough just to accept ourselves? Can it be enough just to tell our partners? Don't we have an obligation to do even a small part to make it easier for every crossdresser to come out to their partners? To be comfortable with their own nature as crossdressers? Isn't it all part of the same thing, the same solution?

Also, if the estimates of the extent of crossdressing were even 4 times greater than the actual numbers isn't there an obligation to make the general female public more aware that this is such a common thing, that expectations of many for their husbands might need to be changed, that the stigma associated with it needs to be stamped out and doesn't it make sense that by helping female society and culture become more accepting and appreciating of crossdressers and the numbers of us suffering in fear and silence that this will in turn help many individual GG partners accept and come to terms with us?

Do we have the same equal obligation of honesty to ourselves and our partners and then society?

[NewBetty]

I've been thinking about this even before this excellent post by Michelle, because i wonder if hiding behavior from a SO is part of the turn on, the thrill of CD for some guys. That doesn't improve chances for success in a relationship, but maybe that's part of the "acting out" for people who can't be honest in their coupling. Any thoughts?

[Leah B]

Yep. Gotta be honest. It shouldn't even be a question.

The toughie is when you don't realize yourself that you're a crossdresser until you're in it. I was with sobe for 2.5 years before it hit me. Before that it was "just a fetish." Still, the sooner you say, ther better.

[micheal]

Iv been waiting for something like this to turn up for years :heehee:.
No way i would be brave enough to have started it.

They think that we have lied to them for so many years and what else are we lying about
Think thats the key part to it for me.
I truely hate the idear of ever haveing to lie to anyone.

Iv not so much as kised a girl for way to long because i cant bring my self to start the lieing thing and have a huge problem with the trusting someone enough to share thing.

:daydreaming: Just how dose that convertion start when you come out to someone anyway.
(Heads of in to the deap dark depths of the forum to find out).

Wow so proud of you for posting that Michelle that im going to have to give you a big hug.
:bighug:

[Michelle 51]

Michelle. I'm not sure i can say this and you not take it wrong because i don't want to offend you but you have been from your post in a lot of relationship's and it's not the same for someone who's got 10 15 20 or more year's invested.My wife know's but for a lot it can be a big risk to come out to a long time partner. Justabit

[joperinal]

When watching TV series, a crossdresser was in the series. Then my SO said, just like that: if you ever do someting like that I´ll pick up the kids and leave.
That´s not an invitation to tell her :(

[Karren H]

God were sooo happy for you.... That you beat the odds and had 3 SO's that love crossdressers soooo much!! And now that you've sucked up to all the GGs on the forum... Hiding behind their skirts.. Ok maybe their jeans.... Hehehe

But for the majority that are in the closet and/or have SO's that won't never ever approve its virtual relationship suiside to come out and admit it!!! I know never would have if she hadn't found out!! And I don't recommend it unless your 110% sure to have an outcome as good as all yours appearently were... Was... Are....

So let's all go out ourselves and destroy our happy marriages and lives and kids lives..... Make for some really really great posts I'll bet!!! Lol

Some peoples kids......

Love Karren

[JoAnnDallas]

Here is something to think about. many of us are boomers. This means we were born in the late 30's/ early 40's. Grew up in the 50/60's, and got married in the 70/80's. Long before the Internet and such. I bet most of us did not tell our wifes when we first got married mainly because we knew that they would not have married us. Also we were ashamed, because back then if you were a CD, you were SICK, PERVERTED, MENTALLY ILL, and no woman wanted a man like that. As such as time went on we kept it hidden. When the Internet came around and forums like this one came along, all of a sudden we discovered that we were not alone. Second society has changed enough that being a CD is no long a Mental Illness and people are more tolerant to us. I think the GAY Revolution had a lot to do with it. Even laws have changed. It used to be we could have been arrested for impersionating a female. In most cases it is no longer a crime and even law enforcment officers will treat us with respect. So here we are today, still in the closet and if we tell our wifes, we risk them leaving us because they precieve that we lied to them and so forth.
If I was just starting out today in life, yes I would tell my future bride all about me because today it's a lot easier and people are a lot more tolerant. Case in point, 3 CD friends of mine. All three are boomers like myself. All three have been married for decades. Then all of a sudden two decided to tell thier wifes they are a CD. The third the wife finds her out. Two are now devoiced and the third is getting a devoice. I look at as a catch 22, your damed if you told them at the beginning (1970-1980) and your damed if you tell them today (2000-2007). IMHO, don't be so hard on us boomers. It may be too late for us to come clean with out losing everything. It may be best to keep it in the closet. As for the younger generation since the internet, you have a better chance than we do. So tell them early on.

[Sandra]

Michelle

Thankyou

[Alex!]

Yes, quite true. There is great honor in truth, and this message has been lost on so many, including children. Part of the honor is that sometimes the truth is painful, but that we should be strong and courageous enough to face it head on. The other part is a deep demonstration of respect for the person we share the truth with.

An excellent and important post.

[Stephenie S]

Now Karren, that's not fair. Your wife does know, doesn't she? I know you never dress in front of her and I know you never talk about it, but you aren't living a lie, are you? She does know.

I think FAR more of our SOs and our families would be at least marginally accepting of us if only we were honest enough to tell them. I think we often sell our SO, families, and friends short in the acceptance department.

A whole lot depends on OUR attitude and OUR self acceptance. And, of course, how we wish to present ourselves matters greatly. We recently read about a new CDer who wanted to do yard work dressed in his/her Daisy Dukes. This would be inapropriate for ANYONE, male or female, in my neighborhood and I would only embarrass my wife and myself if I wanted to do this. 6" heels and fishnet stockings are inapropriate in all but the clubiest of venues. And yet many of us seem to want to "come out" dressed this way. I know that an atitude of self acceptance has gone a LONG way towards Stephenie's ability to function in society. And I know that your own personal atitude of self acceptance and your ability to appear "apropriately dressed" has gone a long way towards Karren's ability to function so well out in the world.

I think that Michelle's plea for honesty in any intimate relationship is a valid one. Trite as it may sound, and as scary as it may seem, honesty is often the best policy. I know that for some this is just not possible, but I am willing to bet that far more of our SOs would welcome a bit less hiding and lying, and a bit more honesty and self confidence from us than we offer them.

JMHO,
Stephenie

[michelleupnorth]

God were sooo happy for you.... That you beat the odds and had 3 SO's that love crossdressers soooo much!! And now that you've sucked up to all the GGs on the forum... Hiding behind their skirts.. Ok maybe their jeans.... Hehehe

But for the majority that are in the closet and/or have SO's that won't never ever approve its virtual relationship suiside to come out and admit it!!! I know never would have if she hadn't found out!! And I don't recommend it unless your 110% sure to have an outcome as good as all yours appearently were... Was... Are....

So let's all go out ourselves and destroy our happy marriages and lives and kids lives..... Make for some really really great posts I'll bet!!! Lol

Some peoples kids......

Love Karren

First off
I'm wondering if it is the fact that you cross-dress that causes the marriage to fall apart or if it's a lot of other things and that is the straw that broke the camels back; a good excuse to end it. The fact remains that we were dishonest and that trust has been broken. That is probably more of an issue than wanting to wear women’s clothes. Yes I have been in more than one relationship and the one woman who did find my stash was pissed. That relationship was over before she found out. I have told 3 of the women and they were sort of ok with it, I was honest and they seemed to appreciate that quality in me more than anything else.

Of course everybody’s situation is different. I think for anybody that hasn't started a relationship yet and is reading this maybe they can think about this thread before they decide to spend their lives with someone and have something to hide. If from the start the other person decides they aren't interested then move on they are not the right one for us. I believe there are lost of women who will accept us for who we are without judgement.


I don't think I'm hiding behind anybodys skirt or jeans and I'm not sucking up to anybody. I'm just as guilty for living with someone and not telling them. I'm older now and wonder if I would have said something from the start if we would still be together. For those that get caught and are still together KUDOS to you, that woman loved you because of who you are.

[MJ]

hi Michell well said. but if i may. you told your gg friends up front thats great
but there are many here who are married and are afraid the marriage will end therefore are in a trap of there own making. and have to live with there secret or pay a horrible price if they disclose it ... and then again maybe not. there could be a 50/50 chance win all or lose all

[kerrianna]

Well said Michelle.

For some of us CDing turns out to be much more than just playing. It can be a way of expressing our mis-gendered feelings. That's a huge huge thing to deal with. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for people to feel they have to go that route alone. If you're lucky you are in a relationship with a person who genuinely loves and cares for you and wants to help you through tough stuff. So the more open and communicative you are with your partner the better it will be for you.

That said, we must remember that not everyone is lucky enough to be in a healthy open relationship. Some people are hanging in there unhappily, out of a sense of duty or devotion, even though they don't connect with their partners anymore. Some people may love their partners still but know full well that their partner's upbringing, or family attitudes, mean that full disclosure would bring nothing but heartache. I truly feel for anyone in a position like that. It would be easy for us to say 'well, that's not healthy, you should at least take a chance and come out, and quit the relationship if it doesn't work out" but we can't speak for others and their situations. In those cases all we can do is support and encourage them, hoping that they will find what they need. It would be nice if everyone had the confidence to reveal themselves fully, but those that don't often have vary valid reasons (to themselves) not to. The problem is that those things usually blow up eventually...but then again, maybe those kind of relationships do too.

I couldn't believe it when right after their 50th wedding anniversary my grandparents split up. I thought they were the happiest couple. Turns out they despised each other in the end. For whatever reasons (certainly not following their hearts) they stuck it out together and put on a brave face. :sad:

[mylitta]

It is destructive to live in a relationship that has lies. They think that we have lied to them for so many years and what else are we lying about. This is something that they should know about.

If she was doing something behind your back wouldn’t you be upset?

Just my :2c:

OK now let me have it.

Thank you.That's it exactly- once you have been lied to it's really hard to trust again. I can't imagine how hurt I would be if I had found out after years- it's so hurtful to think your loved one can't trust you enough to be truthful

[Tree GG]

One bright spot: in the early to mid adulthood of boomers, CD's were sick and perverted members of society. Now, although they may not be embraced as good-ol-boys, I think there is at least a bit more tolerance than that. Progress has been made - albeit slow, it's still progress.

As far as honesty goes, absolutely the trust and what else are you hiding is a factor with a wife. How's about kids, siblings and in-laws? When is coming out selfishly inflicting an emotional burden on a loved one vs. sharing who you are? When does seeking acceptance of a part of you warrant the cost? Case in point, my mother lost a son and husband within 12 mos and 12 days of each other. A heavy loss - would coming out to her now be liberating, adding additional loss, allowing her to experience new lifestyles, beneficial to him or her in any way? Now I lost the same brother and father AND found out my husband is TG in that same time frame - I can't answer those questions with any certainty.

Not saying hiding is the best policy, but I think the CD has a huge responsibility to know how big a piece CDing is to his life and needs to share that intimate detail with compassion and respect for his position in others' lives.

[Leah B]

When watching TV series, a crossdresser was in the series. Then my SO said, just like that: if you ever do someting like that I´ll pick up the kids and leave.
That´s not an invitation to tell her :(


Preempt her. Take the kids first and leave her a note and picture :)

[EmmaJane TS]

Hi Michelle,

Told the wife and now I'm getting divorced! TBH there were other factors in us splitting up but CD'ing played it's part. It is great advice though hun but remember it takes two to tango and if your SO is against CD'ing then regardless if you tell (rather than being caught) it still going to be an uphill battle.

[Karren H]

Well my wife does know and doesn't like it... Personally I'd rather she didn't know.. That make me a liar, fine... An out 31 years marriage is good and strong, but only because I put my family and wife first, always... If theres time left for Karren... That's great... And I'm a good husband to my wife which is what she wants and what I want...

And I disagree the most familys and SOs would not have a problem if they found out.. To the contrary, the Totaly accepting SO is a myth and doesn't really exist except in our minds... Wishful thinking.... The GGs that aproach totaly accepting are more like a high degree of tollerence... Ask anyone... Its different levels of tollerence not acceptence after all who really want their mate to want to dress and act like the opposite sex!

And the GGs here, god love um, are biased... The tolerate more than anyone... The ones that don't tolerate are not represented here because ..... Well they don't tollerate!! Lol. Daahhhh...

So that's my story and I'm sticking with it... Right wrong or indifferent...

Karren

[vbcdgrl]

Not gonna let you have it, Michelle. I agree with you. It's sad that so many of us have to live this way. I wish I had a magic solution, you know "live happily ever after", but I don't think there is one. Everyone has to deal with it in their own way. As for me, I'm a 2X divorcee. Neither of my Xs knew while we were married, and this caused a lot of stress in my life. I recently "came out" to my most recent X, and she's OK with it. But, of course, she doesn't have to live with me.....big difference.

Vikki

[Kerry Owens]

Thank you Michelle, and Karren I don't know what your definition of "totally accepting" is but evidently the standard you're looking for is something far beyond reality. I never had a problem with Lawren or Lo's cross dressing ever.
I've seen far worse stuff that a man can do, and Lo is a angel compared to that.

[Marissa_Black]

Thanks so much for the wonderful post. I agree with every word in your post as well as all the punctutation!!!

[cocopuff's girl GG]

Thank you for seeing it from our side michelle. It's not thhe fact of finding out as you can see I'm ok with it for the most part, still kinda weird yes but it's because most of us grew up with it planted in our heads that boys do this and girls do that. The ones who come out and lay it all out on the table and start with the attitude(This is me so deal with it) those are the ones who family's get's crushed and then the CDer is standing there in a ablivious acting like he just can't understand what's wrong with his GG. She went nuts on me well Duhhhhhh what did you expect when you just throw it out there and are not willing to let in sink in and not willing to consider her feelings. Basically you are saying this is who I am and what I like to do and if you don't like it or can't accept it then start walking.... and don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'd just like to say Thank you for litterally walking in our shoes for a moment and seeing things like we see it. :love: :love: :hugs:

[linnea]

When watching TV series, a crossdresser was in the series. Then my SO said, just like that: if you ever do someting like that I´ll pick up the kids and leave.
That´s not an invitation to tell her :(

My SO has made virtually this same statement on several occasions. While I would like to have a relationship based on the whole truth, for the time being (probably forever), I will try to continue my relationship on "most of the truth." Of course, if the shoe were on the other foot, I might feel betrayed and disillusioned. On the other hand, I think that I might understand my SO's fears about telling me something so surprising (shocking) as my CDing would be to her.
In my estimation, the investment we have both made in our relationship--a relationship with many strengths--is too great to risk at this time (likely ever).

[Di]

Karen...... WRONG!!!!!!

You said.....".the Totaly accepting SO is a myth and doesn't really exist except in our minds... Wishful thinking.... The GGs that aproach totaly accepting are more like a high degree of tollerence... Ask anyone... Its different levels of tollerence not acceptence "


In my case and I know many others just like me...that searched and wanted a relationship with a cd/tg...took me a while to Find THE one I totally clicked with....but there is unconditional love...and total acceptance.( from us both)...I want Sherlyn to be happy...whatever road that leads is fine with me,,,from part time Sher time to 100 percent Sher.
You also said "after all who really want their mate to want to dress and act like the opposite sex! " GUILTY....I try to spark her into dressing whenever it wans......

So just as there are as many different types of cd,s...there are just as many different GG's

[Kieron Andrew]

GUILTY....I try to spark her into dressing whenever it wans......
i can prove to this being true! shes had me helping her lol

[kathy gg]

.. To the contrary, the Totaly accepting SO is a myth and doesn't really exist except in our minds... Wishful thinking....

Karren

It's always good to know I am a myth and don't exsist....and Marla gg and Di {Sherlyns' gg so}....none of us exsist either...thanks Karen. Nice to know we are all figments of your imagination.

[claireswife-gg]

I'm often asked why our relationship works so well.

Talk talk talk talk talk talk.

Honesty. Honesty. Honesty. Honesty. Honesty!

Be kind every day.

Do nice things for each other.

Understand that each partner can experience a rollercoaster of emotions at any given time, and they MUST talk about it.

That's it. The big secret. :D

[Wendy me]

well my wife knows and is not supportive at all we have made some steps forward ... a myth ??? no for me a wish .... and i am hopeful that one day she might be more open to it.... the supportive S.O> is not a myth... more a dream or a goal to strive for....

[Carin's Wife GG]

It's always good to know I am a myth and don't exsist....and Marla gg and Di {Sherlyns' gg so}....none of us exsist either...thanks Karen. Nice to know we are all figments of your imagination.


I am not a figment of anyone's imagination except perhaps *the great and mighty always out there* karen!

I will join you and the others in the imaginary role of celebrating GG if you will have me!


Louise.:

[Carin's Wife GG]

I am not a figment of anyone's imagination except perhaps *the great and mighty always out there* karen!

I will join you and the others in the imaginary role of celebrating GG if you will have me!


Louise.:

marry her in June!


A VERY pissed off Louise GG.

[Karren H]

Karen...... WRONG!!!!!!

You said.....".the Totaly accepting SO is a myth and doesn't really exist except in our minds... Wishful thinking.... The GGs that aproach totaly accepting are more like a high degree of tollerence... Ask anyone... Its different levels of tollerence not acceptence "


In my case and I know many others just like me...that searched and wanted a relationship with a cd/tg...took me a while to Find THE one I totally clicked with....but there is unconditional love...and total acceptance.( from us both)...I want Sherlyn to be happy...whatever road that leads is fine with me,,,from part time Sher time to 100 percent Sher.
You also said "after all who really want their mate to want to dress and act like the opposite sex! " GUILTY....I try to spark her into dressing whenever it wans......

So just as there are as many different types of cd,s...there are just as many different GG's


Your one in a million, Di.... How about mythical... hehehe.... I don't know why I argue with a woman... I know I will always loose.... happends wevery time!!! So say there are 350 million people in US and Canada.... 50% male, 75% over 18, 5% crossdress, and 50% are married and you two are the only accelting GG's around...... That's 0.0000305% Rounding error... hehehe One in 3.25 million to be exact....

Karren

[Kate Simmons]

Hmmm, Just one thing to say. When I first joined here, I advised a CD to "fess up" to her SO. Man, did I get hammered for that. So, guess the thinking has changed in a year, then?

[Taurus44 GG]

Hi there Karren,

I too am one of the imaginary type of GG's that you spoke of. I not only enjoy my partners dressing, I do most of the purchasing of the outfits, including picking up wigs in various colors, applying make-up and photographing the tranformations for us to enjoy looking over afterwards. However, I do understand, where many are coming from, society still has a long way to go before all people can feel comfortable to just relax in thier own skin. But, a life of duality within a relationship isn't a life I would wish on anyone, nor would I want to be in such a situation. Even though I certainly do empathise with the why it happens. And I do understand any GG partner that might freak out upon finding out such info, having not a clue or an understanding to the concept. The GG's feelings would have to be considered as well, she's built a life around what she now believes was a lie. She's in shock, she has to rework her entire world's concept about who you are and how that relates to her. She will probably be questioning her entire being as well, she might even start questing her own womanhood. Some will pull through this some won't.

I'm torn between feeling, its inexcusable to deceive the ones you say you care for and being somewhat understanding of the older generation. What happens if they find out by accident anyway? But, then of those that have been in their marriages from way back in the old days of where it really was deemed a mental illness or some other extreme nonsense to have done any of the things we do now, its just really difficult for me to be overly judgemental about some of the choices people made back then. So many people hadn't haven't a clue who they were/are and some never will. Sometimes it's just not fair to speak on another's situation unless you've walked in their shoes or at least have a few more details of. But, when coming out to the partner, being self serving or arrogant about it isn't acceptable, that's for sure.

Rosa (GG) Who still has so much to learn

[Carin's Wife GG]

Hi there Karen,

I too am one of the imaginary type of GG's that you spoke of. I not only enjoy my partners dressing, I do most of the purchasing of the outfits, including picking up wigs in various colors, applying make-up and photographing the tranformations for us to enjoy looking over afterwards. However,

I do understand, where many are coming from, society still has a long way to go before all people can feel comfortable to just relax in thier own skin. But, a life of duality within a relationship isn't a life I would wish on anyone, nor would I want to be in such a situation. Even though I certainly do empathise with the why it happens. And I do understand any GG partner that might freak out upon finding out such info, having not a clue or an understanding to the concept. The GG's feelings would have to be considered as well, she's built a life around what she now believes was a lie. She's in shock, she has to rework her entire world's concept about who you are and how that relates to her. She will probably be questioning her entire being as well, she might even start questing her own womanhood. Some will pull through this some won't.

I'm torn between feeling, its inexcusable to deceive the ones you say you care for and being somewhat understanding of the older generation. What happens if they find out by accident anyway? But, then of those that have been in their marriages from way back in the old days of where it really was deemed a mental illness or some other extreme nonsense to have done any of the things we do now, its just really difficult for me to be overly judgemental about some of the choices people made back then. So many people hadn't haven't a clue who they were/are and some never will. Sometimes it's just not fair to speak on another's situation unless you've walked in their shoes or at least have a few more details of. But, being self serving or arrogant about it isn't acceptable.

Rosa (GG) Who still has so much to learn

Thank you! (I am still pissed though!)


Louise.

[NewBetty]

Karen...... You said.....".the Totaly accepting SO is a myth and doesn't really exist except in our minds...

In my case and I know many others just like me...there is unconditional love...I want Sherlyn to be happy..

You also said "after all who really want their mate to want to dress and act like the opposite sex! "

GUILTY....I try to spark her into dressing


I was lucky enough to be in a relationship where gender roles were not set in stone. We could be who we were. In fact, my wife was more courageous and embraced non conformist behavior with more zeal than I. I know her concern was only that I might find I liked men better(I don't!), and I hadn't dressed except since we experimented with it together years ago.

Now she's gone and I've been dressing obsessively for weeks, but I still sense her acceptance of me and her desire for me to find whatever makes me happy.

[Shelly R]

A BIG thank you for the post and your thoughts Michelle, excellent!
My hat's off to the rest of the GG's in this world for their understanding, and love.
My exwife supports me 100%, just can't be married to a woman. We still talk. There is hope

[claireswife-gg]

Well, so nice to know I'm imaginary. LOL.

My spouse is in transition and I'm having the best time of my life.

[cocopuff's girl GG]

Add another figure it to your imaginary GG's Karen. I am accepting because I want him to be happy and because I do love him. Still fairly new to the idea but I have a great SO who goes slow and respects my feelings as I respect his. I'm sorry your SO wants to know nothing about your CD lifestyle but there are some of us who know and can be ok with it. It does take time to get use to but they say time heals all wounds. If someone does a poll on accepting GG's I wonder how many there would be. Count me in.

[Carin's Wife GG]

Add another figure it to your imaginary GG's Karen. I am accepting because I want him to be happy and because I do love him. Still fairly new to the idea but I have a great SO who goes slow and respects my feelings as I respect his. I'm sorry your SO wants to know nothing about your CD lifestyle but there are some of us who know and can be ok with it. It does take time to get use to but they say time heals all wounds. If someone does a poll on accepting GG's I wonder how many there would be. Count me in.

I think some are envious of supportive SOs.


from an figmant of the imagination.

Otherwise known as Louise.GG

[Stacy GG]

Your one in a million, Di.... How about mythical... hehehe.... I don't know why I argue with a woman... I know I will always loose.... happends wevery time!!! So say there are 350 million people in US and Canada.... 50% male, 75% over 18, 5% crossdress, and 50% are married and you two are the only accelting GG's around...... That's 0.0000305% Rounding error... hehehe One in 3.25 million to be exact....

Karren

I think there are more than you know Karren.
I'm much happier, as is elly , now that I know she is transgendered. No more "secrets" or anything..not that it was really secret to begin with...

Anyway, there are alot more ggs who are accepting than you are giving credit to. I don't like being mythical or imaginary, I don't live in a fairy tale world and I have to work just like everyone else. Yes it is work to be accepting just like anything else in a relationship. It takes time, patience and desire to reach a goal. please don't dismiss a whole group of people on the forums just because your wife doesn't accept it. Maybe it works for you, maybe it doesn't..if that's the problem discuss that instead of slandering a group of people by saying they don't exist.
:devil:

[Sheri 4242]

After Michelle's original post I, in part, said:


"Well said, Michelle . . . (y)ou are absolutely right!!! To use the title of a Billy Joey song, "It's a Matter of Trust." IMHO, a marriage is only as strong as the foundation upon which it is built. Build it on lies and deception, and I don't care how smart you are or how careful you hide your secret, your marriage is built on a foundation that is doomed to crumble!!!

And, most people (men and women) that I know, will, when they find out they have been lied to in a major way, will always wonder, "what else has this person been lying about." Trust is broken -- and broken trust is perhaps one of THE most difficult things to rebuild in a relationship!!!


I would like to add one more thing in the context of what I originally said, the plight of "married with children CDs" notwithstanding. No partner in a marriage should make independent adjustments to their partnership without regard for their partner's feelings and needs. If acting appropriately has consequences, so be it. Trust, fidelity, and honesty are essential components of a healthy marriage! Living a lie with one whom you are pledged to give trust, fidelity and honesty is the antithesis of your vows. In every situation, there can be ways to deal with situations like CDing in many, if not most, cases. Living in dishonesty can only cause stress and a lack of intimacy (in the true definition of that word). I am convinced that it is far better to introduce the truth -- and be prepared to go slow for as long as it takes -- than to suffer the consequences of being outed by accidental discovery. True, every person's situation is different, but there are fundamentals that every marriage must contain.

[Carin's Wife GG]

After Michelle's original post I, in part, said:



I would like to add one more thing in the context of what I originally said, the plight of "married with children CDs" notwithstanding. No partner in a marriage should make independent adjustments to their partnership without regard for their partner's feelings and needs. If acting appropriately has consequences, so be it. Trust, fidelity, and honesty are essential components of a healthy marriage! Living a lie with one whom you are pledged to give trust, fidelity and honesty is the antithesis of your vows. In every situation, there can be ways to deal with situations like CDing in many, if not most, cases. Living in dishonesty can only cause stress and a lack of intimacy (in the true definition of that word). I am convinced that it is far better to introduce the truth -- and be prepared to go slow for as long as it takes -- than to suffer the consequences of being outed by accidental discovery. True, every person's situation is different, but there are fundamentals that every marriage must contain.

I do believe that the majority of CDs/TVs do not intend to hurt or betray their wives/partners even though that is exactly what it feels like to the wife/partner. The hurt is real, the intent is not, IMO. and the trust, once this point is realized and accepted, can be fully rebuilt and be even stronger in the long run.

Louise.

[Satrana]

I will not be judgemental of other people because this is not a black and white issue except in an abstract perfect world.

The crossdresser has to weigh the stress of hiding his feminine self and the risk of discovery against the certain hurt and possible destruction of the relationship and family, i.e. kids. This is an individual choice and neither one is pretty, it is a choice of which is the lesser evil.

Our society stresses that one should place your partner and your children ahead of your own personal needs, in which case not revealing the crossdressing can often be the better choice especially if he believes his SO will definitely reject him.

And this all assumes the crossdresser understands what this is all about and what it means to him etc, and many are far from reaching that level of self understanding and acceptance.

I also know that many people do hide things all the time from their partners precisely to avoid hurt and disputes. It may not be right but it is human nature, Life would be impossible if we always told the whole truth, we would always be hurting others everytime we opened our mouths. Not revealing information is part and parcel of relationships.

Pre-internet era, there just was not the right information and support available for crossdressers and SOs to make sensible and reasonable assessments. This is changing so future generations will have an easier time and will hopefully always deal with crossdressing early on in the relationship.

As for Karen's myth quote, accepting GGs do exist but they are rare. Hopefully that will change for the better in time. Also there is no standard definition of what constitutes acceptance, what one person considers acceptance, another may view as a level of tolerance.

IMO if you accept something then you would not have any issues with it, you would not have up and down days, you would not have to constantly think about it or struggle with it, and you probably would not have any need to be in these forums in the first place. You would not have thoughts like "it could be worse, other men are violent, abusive, adulterous etc" as this denotes a negative view of crossdressing by comparing against bad behavior.:2c:

[crusadergirl]

I agree you should tell the truth but if its going to hurt your SO and you lose the woman you love theres no need to tell. Not eveything in your life has to be told to your wife are anyone. Crossdressing isn't something in most ppls lives thats so important that you should tell the world.
We should all just go out and tell everybody we can that we dress as women, i sure there cool with it. As far whos side i'm on no ones. There is going to be things in a gg's life she will never tell you. Does she have to tell you no unless its really important she will. Take your resonsibilitys for who you are and stop worring about telling ppl you Cd. It gets old hearing this stuff.

[noname]

If she was doing something behind your back wouldn’t you be upset?

Shouldn't we be upset for them lying to us? They said they truely loved us. It seems in some cases they left out the conditional part. I don't think any of us were told, " I will love you as long as you meet my expectations of what a man is " nor where we told " I will love you so long as your self expression does not threated my social status "

So the dishonesty thing can go both ways.

[JudeGG]

Shouldn't we be upset for them lying to us? They said they truely loved us. It seems in some cases they left out the conditional part. I don't think any of us were told, " I will love you as long as you meet my expectations of what a man is " nor where we told " I will love you so long as your self expression does not threated my social status "

So the dishonesty thing can go both ways.

Does the loving of someone unconditionally also mean, then, that we should put up with infidelity and anything else partners decide to throw at each other ???

If we reverse your statements, we would be saying "I truly love you so I will accept your crossdressing"........................therefore would we be saying "I truly love you so I will put up with your infidelity".

[Shelly Preston]

Your one in a million, Di.... How about mythical... hehehe.... I don't know why I argue with a woman... I know I will always loose.... happends wevery time!!! So say there are 350 million people in US and Canada.... 50% male, 75% over 18, 5% crossdress, and 50% are married and you two are the only accelting GG's around...... That's 0.0000305% Rounding error... hehehe One in 3.25 million to be exact....

Karren

I would not want you as my Statistician Karren (Sorry)

You neglected a lot of things in your calculations you assume every figure except one. The one which helps your argument. You also assumed this figure by assuming this is the only forum, and only the two GG's who responded to your comment are accepting.

Trust and Honesty are key to most relationships

That said fully understand the concerns of some who have said there were told there SO would walk away

[noname]

Does the loving of someone unconditionally also mean, then, that we should put up with infidelity and anything else partners decide to throw at each other ???

If we reverse your statements, we would be saying "I truly love you so I will accept your crossdressing"........................therefore would we be saying "I truly love you so I will put up with your infidelity".


What does Cd'ing have to do with infidelity? I've always been faithful to my wife. My wife could shave her head and go goth. I would never leave her for how she chooses to express herself. How does infidelity fit into this again?

[JudeGG]

Doesnt have anything to do with infidelity - but your statement of unconditional love implies that if we love somebody unconditionally - we (and Im talking both sides) would accept anything because we love our partners unconditionally.

You were trying to imply that we dont love our partners unconditionally just because we dont accept CDing

[Lindsay]

Noname -

Shouldn't we be upset for them lying to us? They said they truly loved us. It seems in some cases they left out the conditional part. I don't think any of us were told, "I will love you as long as you don't have affairs with twenty-seven different women" nor were we told "I will love you so long as you don't turn out to be gay", or "I will love you as long as you don't visit prostitutes" or "I will love you as long as you don't commit bigamy", or "I will love you as long as you don't gamble away all our life savings, lose our house and get your legs broken by loan sharks".

God, GG's are so unreasonable!

I'm not equating CDing with those obvious bad things, btw. But "I love you" can only ever be based on who she thinks - knows - "you" are. If you're keeping really big stuff from her (and what's no big deal to one person is really big stuff to someone else), you aren't who she thinks you are. Particularly as in many cases, CDing isn't just CDing. Some CDers are bisexual, others feel they're trapped in the wrong body. That's big stuff. That's not the same as sickness and in health, better and worse, richer and poorer.

[Sheri 4242]

I've said it once and I'll say it again: No partner in a marriage should make independent adjustments to their partnership without regard for their partner's feelings and needs. Trust, fidelity, and honesty are essential components of a healthy marriage! Living a lie . . . is the antithesis of your vows.

[Karren H]

.......But in the real world, for a majority of us.......... The truth will set you free of your wife, kids, family, job, life, money (lawyers probably love that)..... But we'll look pertty in our cute dresses.... Broke and in the unimployment line.... Hehe

And I really don't know why I belabor the point... Cause my situation is working for me and her...... Just irks me when people get on their high horse......But chastising us for not telling the truth has life changing consiquences....... for the chastizee's not the chastizer's... (Spell check please!! Hehe)!!

In my opinion...........


Love Karren

[Lawren]

To the contrary, the Totaly accepting SO is a myth and doesn't really exist except in our minds... Wishful thinking.... The GGs that aproach totaly accepting are more like a high degree of tollerence... Ask anyone... Its different levels of tollerence not acceptence after all who really want their mate to want to dress and act like the opposite sex!

I have to disagree Karen. This is a wide and varied world. I cannot believe that there is not some dominant b***h out there who not only totally accepts but actually forces her SO to crossdress 24/7.

As for Kerry and I, Any intolerance that she does have is beyond where I want to go anyway. Her limitations mesh with mine quite well. She is as close to "totally accepting" as I could ask for.

[AngGG]

Shouldn't we be upset for them lying to us? They said they truely loved us. It seems in some cases they left out the conditional part. I don't think any of us were told, " I will love you as long as you meet my expectations of what a man is " nor where we told " I will love you so long as your self expression does not threated my social status "

So the dishonesty thing can go both ways.

Let me first say that I have been married for seven years now and found out about this three years into our marriage. I understand that this is who he is and what he needs to do. I am ok with that. I might not choose to participate all the time but that does not mean he cannot dress.

Ok now for my .02... You say that you expect unconditional love...we all deserve that imo...You are also saying (in a round about way) that if we (as gg's) don't embrace everything TG then we are not showing unconditional love.

Now let me ask you this...A person (gg or gm) grows to adulthood and is "hardwired" (meaning deep inside this is who they are and will always be) to feel attracted to a specific image, whether it is a fem female or a masculine man, then after years of being in the closet their spouse comes "out" to them. The spouse starts shaving things or growing things (beard, face, arms legs, boobs, ect), now is the one who is "hardwired" to be attracted to the specific image not showing unconditional love for their mate or is the mate not showing unconditional love by not taking the spouses "hardwiring" into consideration before changing their appearance and 99% of the time their very mannerisms... How is this considered "lying" when we could not make a decision as to how we feel about cding because we were not given the information beforehand? By definition to lie is
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
If we did not know about the cding, we can not know how we will react to it. If we did not know from the beginning why would we think "hmmm if my spouse decides to switch gender rolls will I still be attracted to him/her?"
Unconditional love is a two way street. With unconditional love comes trust, respect and honesty. You cannot have these things without the others. So when you slam us for not showing "unconditional love" think about the flip side...are you showing unconditional love for someone when you are constantly doing things that may go against the others "hardwiring"?

Angela

[CharleneCD]

Here is something to think about. many of us are boomers. This means we were born in the late 30's/ early 40's. Grew up in the 50/60's, and got married in the 70/80's. Long before the Internet and such. I bet most of us did not tell our wifes when we first got married mainly because we knew that they would not have married us. Also we were ashamed, because back then if you were a CD, you were SICK, PERVERTED, MENTALLY ILL, and no woman wanted a man like that. As such as time went on we kept it hidden. When the Internet came around and forums like this one came along, all of a sudden we discovered that we were not alone. Second society has changed enough that being a CD is no long a Mental Illness and people are more tolerant to us. I think the GAY Revolution had a lot to do with it. Even laws have changed. It used to be we could have been arrested for impersionating a female. In most cases it is no longer a crime and even law enforcment officers will treat us with respect. So here we are today, still in the closet and if we tell our wifes, we risk them leaving us because they precieve that we lied to them and so forth.
If I was just starting out today in life, yes I would tell my future bride all about me because today it's a lot easier and people are a lot more tolerant. Case in point, 3 CD friends of mine. All three are boomers like myself. All three have been married for decades. Then all of a sudden two decided to tell thier wifes they are a CD. The third the wife finds her out. Two are now devoiced and the third is getting a devoice. I look at as a catch 22, your damed if you told them at the beginning (1970-1980) and your damed if you tell them today (2000-2007). IMHO, don't be so hard on us boomers. It may be too late for us to come clean with out losing everything. It may be best to keep it in the closet. As for the younger generation since the internet, you have a better chance than we do. So tell them early on.

Michelle, I have to say I agree with you when it involves new relationships. We know enough today that we cant fool ourselves by thinking it will go away if we settle down and get married. If we are a C/D we will always be a C/D. Knowing this it is wrong to lie or withhold from the person you are making a life long commitment to.

But I must agree with Joanne. The older C/D's who have been married forever are in a different position. They did not have the same information we do now and had a much tougher time of back then. Each of them must make their own desision. All the time knowing either answer could devistate their lives.

[Karren H]

I have to disagree Karen. This is a wide and varied world. I cannot believe that there is not some dominant b***h out there who not only totally accepts but actually forces her SO to crossdress 24/7.
.

Somehow I've never equated forced femininization and accepting SO's... Lol. Thought old Abe abolished slavery in the 1860's.... Hehe

The accepting GG issue aside.....(Mental note..... Don't mention that ever ever again).....

If I wanted someone to berate me for not being a as good of a human being as they are because I lied....or didn't tell someone my secret..... I'd go on the Jerry Springer show...

I figure that's my burden to bare......

But I really do appreciate it that someone would take the time and effort to keep pointing that out to me..... again..... Hehe. Bet we could make a killing with a Liars Anaomous forum.... Small fee to join.. But then you would have to use your real name.. Else that would be.... You know... ......

:D

Love Karren

[Kate Simmons]

You're absolutely right Karr, no one can MAKE me wear a dress, I do it because I want to--I guess nobody gets that--too simple. Maybe we should go on Jerry's show (Jerry!Jerry!Jerry!:rolleyes: ) to "confess". You are correct though when you say it's our choice and our burden to bear if we tell our friends and family or not.:happy:

[battybattybats]

Hmm.. there may be a decent basis in biological reality for your 'hardwiring' argument.

But as the exact same argument could be made for a man being potentially 'hardwired' to be attracted to a thin woman then having problems when their wife gains weight... or being 'hardwired' to sleep with multiple partners to maximise the spread of their DNA amongst the population...

I always find it interesting when morality and ethics comes into conflict with biological reality. How can we punish criminals if we find a criminal gene? What about violence and the controvertial 'warrior' gene? How can we assume we have total free will after the discovery of the unconcious?

This is an interesting and dangerous argument. If accepted It could end up justifying the worst crimes comitted by humans. Genocide, war, lying, cheating and rape all have some degree of value when viewed from only a 'survival of the fittest' argument, they help ensure the success of a particular set of genes.

It is also true however that good arguments have been made recently for the evolution of altruism, morality and empathy from purely natural selection forces too. Altruism for example in a community helps the entire community prosper which helps propagate the species and family groups within that species therefore self-sacrifice has a genetic survival benefit.

This 'hardwired' idea is one that can only be determined by hard science, explore it by all means but be careful where it may lead. Just because something is natural doesn't automatically make it good or right. Personally I think that there is a balence between free will and deterministic biology and that we must use our will to be sure that we are as ethical as possible in our expression of these 'hardwired' traits.

If the CD is 'hardwired' to need to change there appearance by shaving and the SO is 'hardwired' to only be attracted to hairy men then we have equality. Doesn't bode well for the sex-life of the couple though. That's the trouble with this notion. Could one or the other be more 'hardwired'? Only science can answer that question.

[TracyH]

It seems to me that if you're a crossdresser before you get married, it's a pretty cut and dry case: You should tell your SO before it gets anywhere serious.

The problem comes for those who become crossdressers after they are married.

As far as ethics are concerned, is it ethical to tell your wife that you are a crossdresser? Yes, it is. But what if she's not accepting? It still is.

Lets face it, this revelation may turn you into something your wife isn't attracted to. And that's fine, because I'm just going to go against popular opinion here, and suggest a divorce. If you're not happy and your wife isn't attracted to you, then why are you together?

Examining the alternative will give some clues as to my thought process. Lets say you never tell your wife. Now if you're able to go the rest of your life living like this, and you want to for whatever reason (kids, house, family) that's fine. However, as many of us know, denying your crossdressing leads to depression and irritability. Is it ethical to subject your wife to that when it could easily be changed? I do not feel like it is. Lets face it, it's not fun living with a depressed person. Sometimes these feelings lead to suicide. Anyone who has ever had a suicide in their family will know why this is an unethical decision.

A lot of people would argue the utilitarian value of divorce versus the sacrifice one must make for his family, but this is something that needs to be left up to the crossdresser. There really is no "right answer," just one that will cause less pain.

Things are a lot different than my parents' time. It's no longer about graduating high school or college, marrying and raising a family, and then working for 40 years before dying. A sort of second renaissance has come about, people spend a lot more time and energy on self-actualization these days than at any point in the past. People have the need to be what they are and to find their potential.

[Deidra Cowen]

I agree with just about everything Karren says! :thumbsup:

I will say that if you are single and dating you should tell a GG in that case right away. No need for hiding things...but I fully understand about the Cds that are married and can't risk their marriage, job, family, etc. For those of us that are to one degee or the other transgendered I would imagine a lot of people out there have no idea the pull it has on us.

I feel bad for the girls in a marriage that got to sneak around but I understand what they are doing. Bad for the GG partner too...really its a mess. I hope the younger girls here read the forums and before they get married work out all the issues and don't hide being a Tgirl!!!!

We have a girl here in Atlanta, she dresses and comes out sometimes, but still dates GGs as a guy. She does not tell them and I gotta admit that gets on my nerves. She also plays with guys when she dresses and I get angry her poor little GG GFs have no idea about that. Nothing wrong with bi or gay relationships...but don't sneak back to some GG and act like you are Str8!

Anyway my two cents. Just lucky that I am single and I plan on staying that way for now so I can be a selfish little Tgirl and have fun. Plus I do take good care of my kids and gotta get them into college anyway, that will keep me busy for the next few years.

[battybattybats]

:thumbsup:
Well said TracyH

But if we temper our idealism with mercy we must remember that people are flawed and make mistakes. What of the crossdresser in denial? They may be well into a marriage before they have succeeded in gaining enough self acceptance or courage to be capable to disclose it to their SO.

Again ethically the situation is the same as with the person who only recently became a CD. The SO may be more likely to realise they can't change the CD if they have been doing it since they were 14 however the SO isn't as likely to be understanding about the lack of disclosure.

It is important to remember though that many people are not so idealistic. Just look at the ugly truth that the rise in genetic paternity testing has revealed about the amount of women who cheat.. the percentage of children who have discovered that their father is not the one they grew up with is truly staggering!

[KrazyKat]

AWWW, the age old question, when to tell someone you have decided you love you are a freaking pervert? :eek: My Mate was being eaten alive with guilt of being so disrespectful after 11 yrs of marriage, (losing touch with each other by the hour), and told me 2 years ago.

Fortunately, we are "Split-Aparts", and I was humbled that someone loved me so much to risk it all, knowing how impossible it would be for her to not be with me, expecting me to run, not walk out the door.


And now we have worked our way to total peace and happiness, everyday, of who we are, and what we want.

It's simple, I'm Gypsysexual, and she's Katsexual.

That's all we need, anything else we can face together, and laugh about it later.

It's really a matter of making a choice, for us anyway.

[Kristen Kelly]

I'm in support of you 100 percent, wish I could have been honest to my gf from the start, but I was in denial to myself, I lost out too, for all the years I missed not accepting who I really am

[Dawntv]

This subject really hits home. I am so very fortunate to have a GG that is not only accepting of my dressing but actually encourages me to be myself whenever i chose. I went through a couple week period recently where i didn't wear anything fem and she was wondering what was wrong. I woke up this morning and felt like wearing something silky and i am so very glad that she just feels like no matter what im wearing she loves me. She actually just asked me what i was typing and i told her about this subject and how lucky i feel to be able to be completely honest with her. Hope everyone out there can find that special person who truly appreciates them. Feeling blessed in Michigan

[janedoe311]

Or crossdressing! For most GG's (90%) that is all the choice you will have.

The few GG here that accept are few and far between.

Their spouses are LUCKY. But for most we are luck to keep our marrage if our SO finds out.

So yes I am a bit tired of the complaining. Play with fire and you will get burned! So why are you upset your wife is upset of you dressing?

[AngGG]

See well thats just it, with time patience and understanding a gg might be able to come to a good place with the cding. While its been said before it seems that alot of the time the cder is soo happy when the SO shows some acceptance that they go into "pink fog" mode which can scare the hell out of us. Usually we only have a little time to digest everything before the fog rolls in and it can be very confusing and yes threatening to us.

Here's an example: My dh and I went to Rainbow mountain for 3 days in August. It is a G/L/TG/CD friendly place and S/he was dressed the whole time. When we returned home it seemed like my man had pretty much stayed on vacation. My natural reaction was to pull back. Now I was the one who suggested this vacation because I knew that s/he would love it and I wanted her to be able to have that time, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed myself also. But the thing was I figured HE should know that I needed him to be him sometimes. Silly me. We were at odds for about 4 or 5 months before we actually talked about it. My actions had confused him...how could I be so accepting one day and pull back the next... His actions confused me, I planned this vacation for him, maybe he realized that he was more than a cd and was not telling me.

As for the older cds and ones who do not realize they are cd till later in life, I can understand why you might not want to tell your longtime partner. The fear of rejection, and possibly ending what is a very loving relationship. But for those who know these days and enter into a relationship it should be told. There is soo much more info out there today that is readily available, and there are support groups like this one where the dear sweet gg's are always there to help and give some perspective. It is only right to disclose this part of yourself and if the gg is the person you think she is she will want to know all of you and educate herself. Otherwise why would you want to be in a relationship with someone who cannot accept the true you?

Karen it seems that your wife knows but does not really want to participate or even talk about it. But again, she knows, you know she knows, you are happy not having to share this with her and she is happy not sharing this with you. It is your relationship, and it works for you...that is what matters. You are not lying or decieving her, it seems that this is the unspoken agreement for you. :2c:

Batty I don't know how much of the "hardwired" arguement that I actually believe, I was just using that as an example because it has been said before.

[StephanieH]

:D Michelle, outstanding post! Kudos for having the presence to do this, I’d nominate this one for the Top Ten posts of the year if they ever have such a contest. The subsequent pages have been very interesting reading to say the least, so I had to chime in with my bit as well.

I came to grips with my CD urges a couple years ago after having surpressed it almost all my life. At that point, I had to decide whether I should tell my wife about this or not. After some soul searching, I couldn’t bear not to. I had faced up to who I was about a year before this and was becoming increasingly miserable because I didn’t want to risk losing her, but I threw it out there, we struggled along with it for almost two years, and just recently, things have lightened up tremendously and I think my marriage is stronger than ever. I respect, trust, and love my wife, and she respects, trusts, and loves me as well - if those elements are there, your marraige will not fail. If they aren’t there, it’s destined to fail - it’s just a question of when.

Hiding the act of dressing requires a lot of effort, and from the people I’ve talked to on the forum, it brings with it no small measure of guilt. Where’s the “fun� or “thrill� in that? Who likes feeling guilty? Who likes having to hide things and live in fear? At the risk of sounding harsh, continuing to hide something this serious from your wife cannot end well - the longer the deception, the more damage you’ll inflict. For what it’s worth, I say clear the air, for better or worse, and open the discussion. Yes, it may be difficult, it may be awkward, it may be dangerous, but in my opinion, it should be done. If your wife loves you, things can very likely work out happily, or at least you can find a happy medium ground somewhere. Your guilt will be gone, you don’t have to hide anymore, and she’ll know that you trust her because you’re sailing something out there that’s extremely taboo in the eyes of many. What’s more personal and trusting than sharing a secret this big?

If you continue to hide things and get discovered, then yes, she’s going to think the worst and rightly so. If you can hide something as elaborate as this, what else are you capable of? That’s a recipe for a major train wreck and I don’t see how that scenario can end well at all.

As for “coming out� causing divorces, frankly, I don’t believe that train of thought. Seldom does a divorce happen for a single reason. More often than not, a number of problems lead to divorce, not just one issue. If you’re a great husband, father, etc, in most other respects, I can’t imagine many women being so shallow that they would throw in the towel over something like this. Granted, they may not like it at first, they may not ever like it, but as far as this single issue leading to divorce, I think it’s very rare that this would completely wreck an otherwise healthy relationship. I believe women want a man to be truthful to them, even if its about something they’re not comfortable with, rather than be kept in the dark and lied to.

In short, if you’re going to be man enough to wear a garter belt and 4" heels, be man enough to tell your wife the TRUTH about who you are. The ball is in her court at that point, and you’ve done the honorable thing. :2c:

And KAREN, wow! What naughty replies you’ve done! Yes, Virginia, there ARE real accepting GG’s out there because I’ve spoken with a bunch of them in recent weeks and I’ve gotta’ say I received fantastic advice from them. I really enjoy your posts Karen, but I fear you’d better have on some Kevlar undies after that one! :eek:

[janedoe311]

No matter how well the marriage is going that will end it for her.

And do you blame her. Yes marriages usually break up for more than one reason Money is the main reason in the US. But finding out your spouse is gay is a shock. Again Yes most CD'ers are not gay but most people do not know that.

[Carin's Wife GG]

No matter how well the marriage is going that will end it for her.

And do you blame her. Yes marriages usually break up for more than one reason Money is the main reason in the US. But finding out your spouse is gay is a shock. Again Yes most CD'ers are not gay but most people do not know that.

does NOTHING to help any one of us here, GG, TG, CD or other.


Louise.

[Karren H]

And KAREN, wow! What naughty replies you’ve done! Yes, Virginia, there ARE real accepting GG’s out there because I’ve spoken with a bunch of them in recent weeks and I’ve gotta’ say I received fantastic advice from them. I really enjoy your posts Karen, but I fear you’d better have on some Kevlar undies after that one! :eek:

So you just chatted with them?? Better grab one quick... Hehe. Next time I go out enfemme I'm wearing my hockey equipment!!

:tongueout

Love Karren

[Carin's Wife GG]

So you just chatted with them?? Better grab one quick... Hehe. Next time I go out enfemme I'm wearing my hockey equipment!!

:tongueout

Love Karren

real consequence to you. It is pure fun and the rest of us are probably raining on your parade. As my teens would say...Duh on me for being so slow.


Louise.

[Emily Ann Brown]

Karren Karren Karren....


Didn't your older sibling teach you anything? You should have put on the hockey pads BEFORE you jumped into this discussion.

And sorry to rain on your parade sis, but I know of several accepting GGs here in town. Weren't that hard to find.....just demand honesty up front.


Emily Ann

[StephanieH]

:D Karen, do they make femme hockey attire? I'm in south Louisiana, what the blazes is hockey anyway? You's is havin' way too much fun! :p

And on the other topic, the hiding stuff is exactly what leads a lot of wives, I think, to suspect the "gay" thing. Sure, I'm certain that thought goes through the minds of all wives and spouses of us peculiar folk initially, but I think with a little education, most ladies can understand many of us aren't gay at all, we're just wired up with an impeccable sense of fashion and style! :D

[KrazyKat]

Yes, JaneDoe, I think many woman are in the groove of thinking that men who dress and look remarkably well are gay. Is this because woman do dress to attract men, so it seems like a logical conclusion.

It cost me my dearest girlfriend of 25 years, because she feels sorry for me, that I will be hurt and partner has to be gay and will slip.

She is very set in her ways, and will never change her mind. I feel like I've lost a "sister", but , if she can't be openminded enough, or have enough respect for me, that I am happy and that I'm sure of our relationship...........I'm thinking she just wasn't the good friend I thought she was!!

I chose my lifepartner, and soul-mate, always there for me, understands me totally. Her loss, my mate and I are good people. This friend is a typical midwestern woman, who lives her life in constant fear of what people think of her.........Sounds like prison to me. IMHO

[Karren H]

real consequence to you. It is pure fun and the rest of us are probably raining on your parade. As my teens would say...Duh on me for being so slow.
Louise.

Actually it was my situation just 2 years ago... When she found a couple skirts and I told her.. Still wish I hadn't.... And I still don't believe a blanket "tell the truth" Ã*s right for every crossdresser on this planet... Pluss I've always been someone that liked to challange the prevailing "jump on the band wagon" thoughts even if I'm proven wrong down the road.... A contrarian maybe....

Sooooo if that's my parade..... Fine..... Guess were not supposed to question anything.......

Karren

[Carin's Wife GG]

Actually it was my situation just 2 years ago... When she found a couple skirts and I told her.. Still wish I hadn't.... And I still don't believe a blanket "tell the truth" Ã*s right for every crossdresser on this planet... Pluss I've always been someone that liked to challange the prevailing "jump on the band wagon" thoughts even if I'm proven wrong down the road.... A contrarian maybe....

Sooooo if that's my parade..... Fine..... Guess were not supposed to question anything.......

Karren

I love the debate piece too! It is sadly missing on many boards.

And while I agree that honesty is the best to shoot for I never did claim it was the best for all. my only disaggreement with you was that totally accepting GGs are a myth. They are not plain and simple.


Louise.

[Karren H]

I love the debate piece too! It is sadly missing on many boards.

And while I agree that honesty is the best to shoot for I never did claim it was the best for all. my only disaggreement with you was that totally accepting GGs are a myth. They are not plain and simple.


Louise.

Ok I concede that point to you that they do exist...out there ... Somewhere though I've never met one..... But extremely rare... And precious if you have one...... I don't.....................


Love Karren

[Samantha B L]

I've never been married but I've been real close with 3 GG's and I told 'em all that I dress.Now I'm not as experienced of a CD'r as some of you others and I'm certainly not out to point fingers at some of you who are in situations where your SO's don't know or disaprove that you dress.And let's face it,for a lot of CD'rs whether or not you are able to keep a good job or stay in a nice neighborhood depends on a little cautious secrecy.But,in a way,we're all doing this for ourselves and it really isn't anybody's business,anyway.There was one GG that I told and we would go shopping together for my stuff.I would tell her in a panic to "tell the saleslady it's for you because I don't know what to say about it"This was a couple of years out of high school and this woman who was 5 years older than I was finally got a little bit tough with me and told me that I should just go ahead and buy what I wanted without a "cover story",etc.,lies about how it's for Mom,my Aunt,My sister,etc.and I haven't forgotten it.Unfortunately,I was in nearly full dress at her apartment where I spent half my time and she made some remark that she "didn't care if I dressed in ladie's things but to tell you the truth I think it's strange that you do it".It was at about this time that she also told me she "cared a lot about me but wasn't in love with me".So it's lucky for me that I cut myself a breather by telling her early on about my CD'ing.We had discussed co-habitation and also discussed marriage on a handful of ocaisions but I'm nowadays releived that I didn't make that plunge!There was another GG that I was very,very close to who I had known since Junior High in 1969. I became very close to her in like 1980 and I sensed ourselves being drawn close together.So before long I just told her all about it and she became a best freind and mentor.We both wore the same equivalent sizes in Women's clothes and were the same heighth(5'8).She died 2 years ago after being ill for several years but it's lucky that I was out with it about my dressing.She had moved into a new house not long before she died and I was going to have a "guest" bedroom with a vanity and floor to ceiling mirrors.If you can wedge it into the conversation it's better to let your girlfreinds know that you are a CD while the relationship is still getting started.If they're not going to tolerate it,then you'll know that before long and if they approve,they will also let you know.

[Jasmine Ellis]

if there is one that you should tell thats your [girlfriend, or wife]

[michelleupnorth]

I didn't realise that this was going to be such a popular post. I can tell you that I'm glad I posted it now. Seems to me that from the majority of the people who have responded the ones who's SO know about it they are still with them, whether they accept it or not. From my experience and from reading what others are saying being honest about who we are is the best thing for everybody involved. I'm not saying to run in the streets in a skirt and heels and yell to the world "HEY EVERYBODY LOOK AT ME." The women that I was honest with had no problem with it and for any of us who have never told a potential partner about what and who we are should not jump to conclusions that most women wouldn't accept this. I think we may be surprised at just how many women don't really care. Case in point, I met someone a few weeks ago and we have been chatting online quite regular. Today I decided to put it to the test again and told her, she was OK with it. That's 4 for 4.

[GothicAngel GG]

As a GG I had to grow up fast and my sister left home when I was 7-8. She lived in the cities and going up there to spend time with her I was exposed to GLBT community at an early age. My parents also taught me "never judge a book by it's cover" type morals. I live by them everyday since I can remember. I think if a GG is exposed and bought up around GLBT/CD (even in passing) we are more excepting. I know I am for it. When Ryan/Regan told me it was a fantacy(sp?) of his I had no problem with it because in my late teens and early 20's I was formally introduce to the GLBT/CD community by some friends of mine.
I was actually excited about it when he told me. Ryan/Regan is also bi so for me he's everything I have ever wanted in a man, a bestfriend as well as a great partner. I have had a harder time with him being bi and being used to having a boifriend on the side than him CDing. I told him in time I could get used to the boifriend thing because it's all new to me. And he agreed to hold of till I was fully ready and if that time never came then he'd be happy with as well.
I whole heartly agree with Michelle on the honesty. There are GG's out there that are willing to accept there men in drag for who they are if they are honest up front. But on the other side of the coin there are many GG's that are still closed minded and that sadens me to no end. Like I had said in previous posts....I could give a s**t less if Ryan actually became Regan for the rest of his life(go though the operation)....I would become a lesbian. I fell in love with him for his personality not because he likes pumps and dresses. Hell I've went as far as helping him start is woman's woredorbe and had a blast shopping for him.
He says he's lucky to have a understanding G/F like me but I think he just likes the fact I was blessed/cursed with rabbit feet.....lmao! He's been scoping out my shoes and honestly I don't mind. I would rather have him feel comfortable in his oun skin and keep up with his responcabilities to our family than be miserable and jaded about no feeling comfortable coming out.

That'sa just my :2c:


Maria

[Sheri 4242]

Too many people -- men and women -- think that if one crossdresses, then they are gay. BUT, as a gay friend told me once, most gay men are attracted to m-e-n, not women and not a man emulating a woman. There are, of course, exceptions, but if you give this line of reasoning some deep thought, it makes sense. There are a number of books that have seriously studied "heterosexual male crossdressing." One that comes to mind -- Boys Will Be Girls -- truly attempts to deliniate the different reasons men CD. Besides the heterosexual CD, there obviously are "drag queens" who are gay, female impersonators (much like drag queens -- may or may not be gay -- but dress to entertain), and certain male prostitutes. There are TS's. And there are also gay (or bi) CD'ers, which pretty much brings us full circle. This is why the term "crossdresser" can be confusing at times -- it can encompass so many who dress for different reasons.

I recall talking to one gg whose first thought about a crossdresser was, "he must be gay." Once all of the above was explained, she saw the faulty reasoning -- but had she not had all of this explained to her -- and if she had not been given the time to process the information, she might well still believe as she originally thought. I participated in conducting a survey a number of years ago, and one revelation that the heterosexual male CDer often has to face is stereotyping!!! (yep, we've gone a few rounds on that topic lately, too -- lol.)

Most studies I have read and/or participated in, don't really look at F-T-M crossdressing. As has been noted here so many times before, women can wear male clothing (and clothing that has been altered to be sold to them, like VS's "boyshorts") and nobody thinks a thing about it -- in fact, it is often considered chic, en vogue, and sexy. The studies I've seen only show a perception problem when a F-T-M CDer dresses in a very "butch" manner. Of course, "participant age groupings" reflected a great deal: I'm showing my age, but I recall when boys wore pants to school (no denim) and girls had to wear dresses or skirts. Later, when girls started wearing pants, it couldn't be denim.

[Lawren]

Somehow I've never equated forced femininization and accepting SO's... Lol. Thought old Abe abolished slavery in the 1860's.... Hehe

The accepting GG issue aside.....(Mental note..... Don't mention that ever ever again).....

If I wanted someone to berate me for not being a as good of a human being as they are because I lied....or didn't tell someone my secret..... I'd go on the Jerry Springer show...

I figure that's my burden to bare......

But I really do appreciate it that someone would take the time and effort to keep pointing that out to me..... again..... Hehe. Bet we could make a killing with a Liars Anaomous forum.... Small fee to join.. But then you would have to use your real name.. Else that would be.... You know... ......

:D

Love Karren

Okay, scrap the forced feminization remark. Not really my point anyway. I wanted to point out that a "totally accepting SO" can fit many decriptions according to what your viewpoint is. IMHO, Kerry is a totally accepting SO.

[Kitty Sue]

I agree. I have never had a relationship end due to my crossdressing. I have always been honest about me being a CDer. Even had a couple of willing participants. I do not know how there can be real love if there can't be trust.

[Melanie R]

Ok I concede that point to you that they do exist...out there ... Somewhere though I've never met one..... But extremely rare... And precious if you have one...... I don't.....................


Love Karren

I live with a wife who is 100% accepting and just in Houston alone I can introduce you to at least 10 wives who are totally accepting and supportive. I could introduce you to hundreds of other accepting wives in other parts of the US and Canada that are 100% accepting. I do have to say that no wife will be 100% accepting if the CD pushes the envelope.

[AmberTG]

WOW, this topic sure has taken on a life of it's own! 4 pages and still going!

[janedoe311]

does NOTHING to help any one of us here, GG, TG, CD or other.


Louise.

But it is what I feel the "problem" is. Most GG's feel CD's are gay. So they will not except it. So what can be done about that?

[Mitch23]

well said - i've recently been on both sides - hated the deception, felt i was only giving part of my self in my relationship. faced the music - very scary time, lots of tears and recriminations - things still not easy but guess what - we're not divorced yet and we're still working through stuff but its honest.

mitch

[Melanie R]

But it is what I feel the "problem" is. Most GG's feel CD's are gay. So they will not except it. So what can be done about that?

We educate these GG's about who we are. It is not that difficult.

[sobe1ove GG]

Although I did question his sexuality at first (which is a natural thing to do) I don't think that anymore.

I am not 100% accepting because I feel like now I will only be getting the man I fell in love with half the time while he gets me full time. It's sort of like I'm in a three way relationship now with him and another lady. Him being the other lady. That's the deal for me. It has nothing to do with me thinking he's gay. That isn't the only issue us GGs have.

[Tamara Croft]

But it is what I feel the "problem" is. Most GG's feel CD's are gay. So they will not except it. So what can be done about that?You know the first time I found out my Tam was a CD, he said the same thing... I'm not gay... I never assumed he was and I never understood why he thought such a thing. I still don't get that? why do CD's assume we will think they are gay? clothes don't make you gay.... :rolleyes:

[janedoe311]

You know the first time I found out my Tam was a CD, he said the same thing... I'm not gay... I never assumed he was and I never understood why he thought such a thing. I still don't get that? why do CD's assume we will think they are gay? clothes don't make you gay.... :rolleyes:Look at other sites and surveys. Most people think that CD'rs are gay. It is not a GG thing.

I feel for the GG it is a bit of insecurity. If he likes to look like a woman what does that make me a lesbian? Or why would he want to attract men? Most women dress up for themselves but also for men. So why would he want to look like a woman?

The other point. Is if the love, trust, and understanding was really there would CDing only end the marriage? It is hard for us at this site to understand why it would.

So my other point is my wife knows me and knows that I dislike men, gay would be the last thing I would be called. So maybe that there is something else going on when a GG ends the marriage because she feels he is gay. Should not she know her husband?

Mind you to contradict myself, I have a friend that divorced after two kids and 20 years of marriage because he was gay and he did the divorce. So I guess some GG’s cannot tell.

It is difficult to try to think like someone else to answer these questions. I am a writer and do my best to think like my characters, and I am good at it. Maybe I will finish something one of these days and try to sell it.

Most of us here are enlightened and it is hard to understand this bias. Stop a long marriage because the man likes to wear a dress once in a while, does not make sense but it happens a lot.

As I said it is just clothes what is the problem?

[sobe1ove GG]

Look at other sites and surveys. Most people think that CD'rs are gay. It is not a GG thing.

I feel for the GG it is a bit of insecurity. If he likes to look like a woman what does that make me a lesbian? Or why would he want to attract men? Most women dress up for themselves but also for men. So why would he want to look like a woman?

The other point. Is if the love, trust, and understanding was really there would CDing only end the marriage? It is hard for us at this site to understand why it would.

So my other point is my wife knows me and knows that I dislike men, gay would be the last thing I would be called. So maybe that there is something else going on when a GG ends the marriage because she feels he is gay. Should not she know her husband?

Mind you to contradict myself, I have a friend that divorced after two kids and 20 years of marriage because he was gay and he did the divorce. So I guess some GG’s cannot tell.

It is difficult to try to think like someone else to answer these questions. I am a writer and do my best to think like my characters, and I am good at it. Maybe I will finish something one of these days and try to sell it.

Most of us here are enlightened and it is hard to understand this bias. Stop a long marriage because the man likes to wear a dress once in a while, does not make sense but it happens a lot.

As I said it is just clothes what is the problem?

It isn't just clothes. If my boyfriend just wanted to wear girl's clothes every so often, I would have no problem. The big problem I have is that he wants to BE a girl. Not only do I not know him that way, but it also makes me uncomfortable. I know he's always felt this way inside, he just never showed it to me. He ISN'T the same anymore because of this.

I don't like the fact that he wants to go out a present himself as a woman. At that point it's not about clothes, it's about gender.

One of the biggest reasons that people get divorced is because of change. It could be that a spouse becomes much more self aware and outgoing than before, so their mate might feel unneeded. This can lead to divorce. Crossdressing is a BIG change to get used to. It's a complete lifestyle change from what us GGs are used to in a relationship.

Change is not easy to accept. Especially for me.

Maybe my answers will help you understand the GG side of things.

[janedoe311]

It isn't just clothes. If my boyfriend just wanted to wear girl's clothes every so often, I would have no problem. The big problem I have is that he wants to BE a girl. Not only do I not know him that way, but it also makes me uncomfortable. I know he's always felt this way inside, he just never showed it to me. He ISN'T the same anymore because of this.

I don't like the fact that he wants to go out a present himself as a woman. At that point it's not about clothes, it's about gender.

One of the biggest reasons that people get divorced is because of change. It could be that a spouse becomes much more self aware and outgoing than before, so their mate might feel unneeded. This can lead to divorce. Crossdressing is a BIG change to get used to. It's a complete lifestyle change from what us GGs are used to in a relationship.

Change is not easy to accept. Especially for me.

Maybe my answers will help you understand the GG side of things.

Yes another aspect to CD'ing. Livestyle change and wanting to be a girl is TG not CD'ing. I can see if he starts "dressing" a lot it will change him.

I feel for you. It is hard to lose someone. My family comes first, I do not CD it does nothing for me. But the women is still in me and it is frustrating that I can do nothing about it.

[JudeGG]

As I said it is just clothes what is the problem?

It's not just about clothes though is it - it is what they represent. A CDer wears them and tries to emulate a woman.

I hear so many times that if women can wear "mens" clothes - why do we have a problem with men wearing "womens" clothes. The difference is - when I stick a pair of trousers on - I dont look in the mirror and admire what I look like as a man - I dont try to emulate a man - neither do i want to grow a beard so I can look like one.

It's a bit tough sometimes - to see the guy you married and didnt know was a CDer - suddenly shave his chest, legs and whatever else he wants to do and try to be a woman.

[Leah B]

I always figured TGing was a subset of CDing.

Whether I really want to be a woman part-time is kinda hazy. Yes and no. I do want to pass, I do want to feel womanly, I do want to be perceived as a woman. Is this something different than wanting to be one? I don't know. I do know that being a "man in a dress" doesn't appeal to me much.

But this IS a big deal, relationship-wise. It brings up tough questions, and the answers don't always come quickly.

[cocopuff's girl GG]

I agree it's more than just clothes. For instance if there are a man's pair of underwear, identical material and cut and everything but they are in the men's section and there are a pair of the same material, cut identical but in order for him to be able to want them they would have to come from the ladies department. At first he tried to make me understand that it was all about the material was so much softer and that was the reason he wanted to wear them. He has some bikini underwear, microsoft material made just like a woman's underwear in cut and everything the only difference is their is a tad bit more space in the crotch area for his ( you know). He don't want to wear them. To make a short story long, LOL, It's not about the material, or the hair pulling on your legs and arm pits, it's not about that it's more comfortable( come on I want born yesturday) I wear a bra everyday and it's uncomfortable, same with pantyhose all day and heels. It's like he was trying to act like I was a idiot and making up sh__ and thinking I didn't know the difference. PLEASE CDer's don't make up stuff, just be honest it has really hurt Me and my so cause he told me lies by making up stuff and instead of just being honest and saying I shaved my leggs cause it feels better and I like the smooth feel and I shaved my armpits cause it just feels better. Just be honest about it. Just a helpful hint if any of you decide to come out any time soon. :love:

[Satrana]

It isn't just clothes. If my boyfriend just wanted to wear girl's clothes every so often, I would have no problem. The big problem I have is that he wants to BE a girl. Not only do I not know him that way, but it also makes me uncomfortable. I know he's always felt this way inside, he just never showed it to me. He ISN'T the same anymore because of this.

I don't like the fact that he wants to go out a present himself as a woman. At that point it's not about clothes, it's about gender.


He does not want to BE a girl, he just sometimes wants to be treated like a girl. If he wants to BE a girl then this is transexuality and is different from crossdressing. Sometimes GGs ask to be treated like one of the guys, this is what crossdressers are asking for.

Sometimes cds just wear the clothes and do not emulate women, sometimes they do emulate women because to their eye a 100% transformation is more pleasing and will get what they are after - being treated like of the girls.

Naturally any crossdresser who comes out of the closet will no longer behave the way he was before, because his en drab self was not the whole truth. He is not a different person though, he is just revealing his whole self and not just his partial self.


I do know that being a "man in a dress" doesn't appeal to me much.
That is the big reason why some crossdressers go onto emulate rather than just stick to crossdressing. All men are conditioned throughout our lives to stay clear of any behavior or appearance that looks gay. Even if we are not homophobic ourselves, we dont want to have a gay appearance, we dont want to be perceived and treated as a gay man, we want to be perceived and treated as a woman.

I was that way myself for a long time. But because I have no restrictions at home for crossdressing, I got comfortable with just crossdressing and not emulating. I rarely wear breast forms and wigs anymore as I am comfortable looking at myself as a man in a dress. It took many years to reach that stage of acceptance and to unlearn my conditioned dislike of what I considered as a gay appearance. The fact that my wife fully supports me and likes me however I dress undoubtedly has made that transition in my mind much easier.

Crossdressers are the way we are because the male gender is so tightly constrained into avoiding all things feminine and all things gay. Emulating women bypasses all our internal roadblocks in our heads and allows us to emote and behave in ways forbidden to us normally. The sense of relief, satisfaction, excitement etc can be overwhelming and so understandably this is something which the cd wants to undertake regularly.

I can understand from an outsider's viewpoint it appears that we want to be women which naturally is a scary thought if you are in a relationship. Unfortunately many cds do not have a good understanding of themsleves and the underlying dynamics which fuel their crossdressing and so are unable to communicate precisely what they are doing except with simple staements like "I want to be a girl" even though this is usually not an accurate description at all.

[AmberTG]

We educate these GG's about who we are. It is not that difficult.

Assuming that the GG is open-minded enough to listen to you in the first place. Some are, some are not. Talking to a closed minded person is a total waste of time, they already know that they are right and you are wrong, why should they listen to you try to change their mind? The facts don't count for closed minded people, both men and women.

[kerrianna]

Being honest about it isn't always that easy. As has been mentioned there are very many different types and reasons and stages of CDing.

My partner knew I liked wearing lingerie the first night we slept together. She didn't mind, she liked it in fact. :hugs: And that's pretty much the way it stayed for 20 years, with the exception that I was wearing some form of lingerie most days as I got older, but always discreetly.

But all those years I had stronger, deeper longings I just had no idea of how or why I would act on. Fantasies, dreams, etc. I just thought it was a kink of mine, didn't really want to think more about it. My recurring fantasy was forced feminization by my partner, something she wasn't comfortable with. I just thought it was about a power shift. I had no idea that it was much deeper than that. So when I took a chance and came out to a stranger about that fantasy, which my partner knew about, it precipitated a crisis in our relationship (naturally, since I did it unilaterally without warning her...I did it without thinking really... I had no idea what I was doing except pushing a fantasy that I dreamt about more and more, in a way I thought was innocent...well in my numb state I thought so at the time). It also precipitated a revelation of my own true nature. Within days of opening myself up and acknowledging I wanted to be made to feel like a girl I found myself profoundly happy for the first time in my life, I became a more considerate (well after I regained some control on myself :rolleyes: ) person, a kinder, more loving person, and my partner liked that change in me. I had to build back trust after having done such a selfish thing, but together we have worked through it and are both better off for the changes in our lives.

When I first joined this forum I remember reassuring GGs that just because their partners CDed didn't make them gay, didn't mean they wanted to be a girl, etc. And I will still say that. I think most of our married members are pretty much who they started off to be, and want to stay that way. Even many who like to go the whole nine yards.

I thought I was one of them. I see now that in fact what has really happened to me is that I have finally come full circle to what I felt as a child, what I've felt but never properly understood growing up, what I kept alive with my CDing - I WANT TO BE A GIRL. So, yes, I must say that when your partner comes out and reveals their CDng it could mean more than just having fun or experimenting or expressing their femme self - although those are the more common reasons. But they could be TG (well, most crossdresser's are to some degree) or TV or TS. And that does mean you are both faced with some serious challenges.

In my case my partner has handled my growth well. I've tried my best to keep her an integral part of the process, and let her know what's going on with me and ask her about how that makes her feel. I try to give her time to adjust - I need the time myself. But each realization of who I am and how deeply this runs in my core being, is another test of the relationship. My latest realization is that I indeed have sexual and romantic attraction to men as well as women. I never considered that before although I and my partner are both open minded and have had our experiments in the past. But this is the realization that I would be happy to fully function as a woman if I could.

As far as how that has changed me in her eyes she would have to tell you that. She fell in love with the soft sensitive young poet who became a jaded cynical uncouth man over the years, so I know she likes the return of my softness. And I am so much happier. I like to think that makes her happy too. But I'm sure she is worried where this will end up. I have assured her I will not transition, because I just don't have the energy to do it I don't think, and I am finding ways of keeping my woman inside happy inside.

I guess the point I'm trying to make with my long story is that sometimes we ourselves don't know where this is going...and when a GG tells us she is scared for her relationship, as much as I'd love to reassure you, everyone is different and you may in fact have real cause to be concerned. The only thing I can say is that a couple who truly love and respect each other should do their best to stay open and communicative, work out day to day what's working and what isn't, be mindful of each other and where the other person stands and what they might be seeing and feeling. People change, relationships change, and couples can change together.

I can't guarantee that we as a couple will succesfully handle the journey I feel I have to make now. But I can guarantee that I will do everything I can to be mindful, respectful, open and loving and make it work for both of us. :love:

btw Satrana, excellent post. TY.

[Leah B]

Thing is though, Cocopuff, we sometimes fool ourselves. I've thought some of those same thoughts before and didn't realize what was going on until Sobe nailed me with a contradiction.

At first I thought "I just want to wear ladies' clothes, wherever and whenever, like a lady does," until Sobe said "then just wear those clothes as a guy, you don't have to pretend to be a woman." That idea didn't appeal to me, and I was forced to consider why. I realized that gender was an important element to my crossdressing. Still, I didn't lie to Sobe, I just didn't know the truth.

[Khriss]

As a GG I had to grow up fast and my sister left home when I was 7-8. She lived in the cities and going up there to spend time with her I was exposed to GLBT community at an early age. My parents also taught me "never judge a book by it's cover" type morals. I live by them everyday since I can remember. I think if a GG is exposed and bought up around GLBT/CD (even in passing) we are more excepting. I know I am for it. When Ryan/Regan told me it was a fantacy(sp?) of his I had no problem with it because in my late teens and early 20's I was formally introduce to the GLBT/CD community by some friends of mine.
I was actually excited about it when he told me. Ryan/Regan is also bi so for me he's everything I have ever wanted in a man, a bestfriend as well as a great partner. I have had a harder time with him being bi and being used to having a boifriend on the side than him CDing. I told him in time I could get used to the boifriend thing because it's all new to me. And he agreed to hold of till I was fully ready and if that time never came then he'd be happy with as well.
I whole heartly agree with Michelle on the honesty. There are GG's out there that are willing to accept there men in drag for who they are if they are honest up front. But on the other side of the coin there are many GG's that are still closed minded and that sadens me to no end. Like I had said in previous posts....I could give a s**t less if Ryan actually became Regan for the rest of his life(go though the operation)....I would become a lesbian. I fell in love with him for his personality not because he likes pumps and dresses. Hell I've went as far as helping him start is woman's woredorbe and had a blast shopping for him.
He says he's lucky to have a understanding G/F like me but I think he just likes the fact I was blessed/cursed with rabbit feet.....lmao! He's been scoping out my shoes and honestly I don't mind. I would rather have him feel comfortable in his oun skin and keep up with his responcabilities to our family than be miserable and jaded about no feeling comfortable coming out.

That'sa just my :2c:


Maria
a thought might be..how or where and when You indulge in whatever prediliction that "you" might desire, what's the point ? ( masterbation?) Any mutual satisfaction or understanding between "partners"concerning wishes and desires:D seems essential reguardless of "sociatal norms" eh ?? :eek: :happy: xx"K"

[cocopuff's girl GG]

The majority of the ones that I have seen the post and pics it is much more than just wanting to wear women's clothes. It is about feeling like a woman on the outside as well as the inside. There are so many wanting to pass and emulating a woman's walk and talk and so forth.... Some are spending a lot of money on breast forms and going to extreme measures to create cleavage and etc... So I have seen very few just good ole CDer's that just want to dress and nothing further. I thought there for a while if I heard the word pass one more time. LOL I was gonna scream. Now before I get :kickbutt: :slap: :spank: I want to say to those who want to pass and go to extreme measures it's your business and I say go for it. I have seen many on here who are very passable and look gorgeous and I had to step back and really say gosh he looks better than some GG's I've seen. So I don't blame any of you for what you like to do but it is much more to my opinion than just dressing.. :2c: :hugs: :love:

[shybutcurious]

i know im not giving the GG's a fair chance, but if i was to tell my last girlfriend instead of here catching me. I dont think she would react any different. She would probably still not be able to accept it. I know with the new age there are more women out there that would be ok after some time. but i still think a majority wouldnt be able to accept it.
this was hypothetical, but it is my opinion.
I wish i could find a woman that can accept it, then my life would be that much better.

But on the other hand to do with lying, i understand the betrayal. everybody has been lied to by there partners one time or another. whether or not the know about it. I would also be hurt, and depending on what the lie is, i might be able to forgive and accept it. forgive but not be able to accept, or neither.

But i am only 20 so i dont know a whole lot, just thought i would add my thoughts on the situation

Jess

[Satrana]

s, it's not about that it's more comfortable( come on I want born yesturday) I wear a bra everyday and it's uncomfortable, same with pantyhose all day and heels. It's like he was trying to act like I was a idiot and making up sh__ and thinking I didn't know the difference. PLEASE CDer's don't make up stuff, just be honest it has really hurt Me and my so cause he told me lies by making up stuff and instead of just being honest and saying I shaved my leggs cause it feels better and I like the smooth feel and I shaved my armpits cause it just feels better.

For some crossdressers, it really is all about the clothes, you cannot lump all cds into the same boat. And shaved skin does feel fantastic. If men in general were not so uptight about femininity and homophobic, I can pretty much guarantee you that most men would shave their body hair off if it were socially acceptable just as most shave their facial hair.

But you are right in saying that some cds use these reasons as a convenient excuse to not explain the whole rationale behind what they are doing. But then GGs do the same. The often quoted reason that GGs wear pants all the time because they are more comfortable and practical is also just a convenient excuse. I was not born yesterday either. Describing skirts as less comfortable than pants makes no sense and there are only some instances where a skirt would be demonstratively less practical as to warrant a change to pants. This convenient excuse does not explain why so many women wear pants 100% of the time, clearly there are other reasons involved.

Both crossdressers and GGs have their own belief systems and gender conditioning which makes it difficult to explain ourselves to each other. We both automatically reach for easy, convenient excuses rather than having to go through the mental gymnastics required to understand our motivations which often conflict with what we are conditioned to believe is normal.

Take for example shaving off facial hair. Until recently men in our society always had beards and moustaches and in other cultures this remains true today. When a man shaves, he is feminizing his face, he is emulating the appearance of a woman, but because facial shaving has been an acceptable practice for a long time, neither men nor women recognize it for what it actually is - the current preference for the clean, hairless look of women. There are practical reasons you can quote for shaving off facial hair but we all know there is much more to it but who is going to bother analyzing this if a couple are arguing whether he can shave his beard off or not. They will stick to the easy convenient reasons that pop into their heads.

[cocopuff's girl GG]

I can easily explain why wearing pants is more comfortable and convinient too. When a woman wears pants verses a dress or skirt you don't have to be so careful about being exposed for instance getting out of a car you have to do it very carefully not to do a Brittney Spears thing you know bare all to the world and most of the time you wear hose with the dress not all times but most time and then you have the worry's of ripping or snagging your hose. Foe me wearing pants is just mostly cause you don't have to be as careful.. Let's say you are having a breezy day and the wind blows up your dress with pants you don't have to worry about that. Also I can wear socks or trouser socks with pants and don't have to worry about hose. Dresses have their place but pants for me are more comfortable. When I wear pants I'm not standing in front of a mirror try to see if I look like a man or wishing I had a package down below. That's the difference for me...... Com

[Satrana]

Sure there are reasons you can list but a straight knee length skirt for example is not revealing, nor will not blow up in the wind etc. These are reasons you are having to come up with to explain something that you do naturally without thinking. You wear clothes as a means of self expression, these clothes are sending a message about who you are, you don't choose the clothes you wear each day on grounds of practicality. Most women's appearances are not based on practical, comfortable criteria - everything from shoes, handbags, hair-dos, make-up, nail polish etc are all impractical but something which women cannot do without.

Clothes are about fashion, they are about sending signals, they are about making us feel good about oursleves and thats true for everybody whether cd or gg. It is a glib answer for either ggs and cds to say they choose their clothes and their appearance on practical grounds.

[cocopuff's girl GG]

Obviously you don't notice GG's these days cause we are dressing more and more for comfort and yes that includes pants. This was not really about pants though it was about the CDers wearing women's clothes and wanting more and more to act, talk, walk, look and some take it even further. I'm not hear to argue why I wear pants and you don'thave to explain to me why you wear pants. I was just making a comment that I think it's more than just wearing the clothes because of just the comfort. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I live with a CDer on a daily basis and although everyone is different I read a whole lot of post on here and the proof is in the pudding..... hugs:love:

[Satrana]

I was just making a comment that I think it's more than just wearing the clothes because of just the comfort.

Thats what I am saying too:love:

[Joanne f]

If it was just a case of lets all be honest all the time life would be so easy but not everyone can handle direct honesty,
i have to agree with a lot of what JoAnnDallas has said ,before the Internet and sites like this one if you had said to a girl that you are a cross dresser they would have ran a mile away from you,i did not really understand myself before i met my wife but i do know that if i had told her before we got married i would not be with her now, yet she is now more comfortable with it than i am ,she has help me a lot, maybe because she got to know me first and in that way cold see past the cross dressing and see that it is a part of what makes me ME. the younger people have it a bit easier now as it is on the television and the Internet so it is more acceptable now, in the end it is best to be honest with each other , a relationship is formed on learning how to deal with each others wants,needs
and problems that life throws at us.
joanne

[battybattybats]

Here are some personal truths.

Body hair is uncomfortable! The difference in sensation on the skin is vast. On really hot days you sweat more your skin gets more itchy and smell a lot more (hair is an insulator and bacteria live on the hair eating the sweat turning it into B.O. gasses as a by-product), on really cold nights when I wear socks to bed to keep my feet warm I wake up with the roots of the hairs around my ankles all sore from the material rubbing and pulling on them and having a hair on my wrist suddenly ripped out after it's got caught in my watch band hurts more than having some sensitive areas waxed because it's unexpected.

Most mens clothes are made from horrible fabric. Heavy, coarse and uncomfortable. The couple of fine soft male shirts I've managed to procure over the years are so different it's astounding. Womens clothes, skirts, pantyhose and stockings might not feel comfortable to some. For me they are more than comfortable, they are sensuous! Now that's apart from being feminine because I have a love for period style clothes and my fine ruffled shirt with laced cuffs, green satin waistcoat, velvet shirts robe and cloak, brocade frock coat, fine cotton pants, top hat, knee-high boots - all made either for women but passable as mens clothes or made from material rarely found in mens clothes - give me a similar (though lesser) physical sensual pleasure sensation to crossdressing. Now wearing a bra is not so directly sensuous and the pleasure I get from looking like a woman is a powerful and certain fact but that doesn't mean it's false to say that wearing silky underthings or shaving away body hair is comfortable or pleasurable in itself without neccessarily being feminine.

[janedoe311]

It's not just about clothes though is it - it is what they represent. A CDer wears them and tries to emulate a woman.



For some CD it is just about clothes.

A woman can put on a pair of men’s pants and mans shirt (because it is more comfortable) without a problem.

But if a man wants to put on a skirt because it is more comfortable it is CD’ing and he is accused of being gay or wanting to be a women.

A CDer does not always try to emulate a woman, he is wearing women’s clothes because he likes them, more comfortable more colorful, lighter material, whatever.

Wearing woman’s clothes because one wants to be a girl is a whole other area. That is a transsexual. Women who stay with their Transsexual men are in a different class. There have been many articles and medical papers written on “Why do wives stay with their transsexual husbands”. It would be an interesting thread here. I am surprised it has not been done!

I perfectly understand why a women would drop a boy friend or husband that wants to be a girl. But I feel most CD’s do not, that is what I feel this thread is about, not transsexuals who want to be women.

You want to wear women’s clothes hence you must be gay and want to be a woman. That is the feeling among most people in this world, male or females.

[janedoe311]

I thought there for a while if I heard the word pass one more time.

Yes you do hear it a lot. The reason is simple. Because it is OK for a women to put on men’s clothes and go in public. You see them all the time. The lesbians with their short hair, they do not necessarily want to be men or emulate men or try to pass as men, but they dress like men. No one (few if any) points at them and calls them names or refuses service or stands away or beats them up.

But if a guy wants to put on a dress he either has to contend with the "Bad Attention" he gets or try to PASS.

So passing is important not because they necessarily want to be girls but because they are trying to avoid getting beaten up.

What is wrong with wanting to “feel” like a women inside and outside and to be treated like a women. Try being a man you are ignored, walked over, bumped into, doors slammed on you,deliberately pushed into, cut in front of etc.

If one does not make "Passing" as a full time, and it is just a “release” once in a while, I do not see the problem with wanting to feel like a women.

[Dixie]

My wife "intrduced" me to crossdressing while we were dating back in the eighties. I finally came clean and told her I had done it before after playing along for about a week or so. She said I kinda figured that, you just didn't put up a fight and I wanted to let you know that it is OK. So honesty was and is the best policy in our marriage. I am one very lucky gurl!!!:blushing: :battingeyelashes:

[cocopuff's girl GG]

I give up... LOL

[jennie06]

Don't give up now. You were doing so well. No matter what the reason you want to dresses or pants, if there is an so we should be honest about it. Both parrties end up getting hurt and things can escalate to a point where they never should. Some articles have said to ease into this if the partner is willing to try to be understanding and let them get used to it. Makes sense to me. True love is hard to find these days and our so's are willing to put forth the effort then respecting their feelings is really worth taking into consideration. I really hope you two can find a compromise that you both can live with. Just my two cents worth.

[tamparay]

Well this is a tough thing to do. I have been married twice and if I had told either one that I was a CD they would not have been receptive like my gf now. You have to feel a person out and ask vague question leading up to your telling but hold back till you know you could really trust her. Some women can not be trusted and just like cheating they will find the best lawyer and bring out things just to embarass you. But if you do have someone who will accept you, then you are blessed. I have a close friend who is a lawyer and does divorces and when women are cheated or betrayed they can do some damage. raye

[noname]

I hear so many times that if women can wear "mens" clothes - why do we have a problem with men wearing "womens" clothes. The difference is - when I stick a pair of trousers on - I dont look in the mirror and admire what I look like as a man - I dont try to emulate a man - neither do i want to grow a beard so I can look like one.

Unfortunately your logic isn't quite... well... logical. Tell me this, what would happen if I went to work with a denim manly skirt? Do believe no one would look twice? Do you believe coworkers would act like it's no big deal? I hear so many times GG say, " It's different when I do it " See, I don't try to be a women, or look like a women.

As someone trapped in fashion hell and who likes to be flashy, it's a very difficult world to live in.

[Maki]

Not to go completely off the tracks but it has been brought up in this post a few times:

The whole women are not emulating men by wearing pants in the same way that men are emulating women when they CD is interesting. The fact that women do (and that society expects them to) emulate men is brought up in a number of feminism books and discussions. In the widely accepted quest for equality women have taken on traits that are applauded in men (There are lots of sources that talk about this …. Its really boring Sociology 101 stuff). As a result of this it is much more common (or acceptable) for a girl to have a name that at one point was traditionally associated with a male or to play with male toys etc. This will probably not be the case in the future. Men are now taking on more traditionally feminine traits (better communication, more nurturing etc). It will be more acceptable for the little boy to play with my little ponies (I still remember the looks I got when I was young). I was reading an article about how this mixing of roles is making us better parents but making relationships harder.

What it comes down to is trying to make things *fair* will get you nowhere. If you are constantly looking for things that are not equal in your relationship with other people you will end up being a sad person.

Wow I bet that was boring to read through ;P

[Melissa A.]

Of course, you're 100% right on, Michelle. Honesty IS the best policy, especially in relationships. But try telling that to a young cd, in his 20s, who is VERY much in the closet, still somewhat ashamed of his need to dress, who meets "the one". So of course, he tells himself all he needs is true love and he can leave this silly dressing stuff in his rear-view mirror forever only to find out, a few years after marriage that he "is who he is" and now he's stuck- afraid to tell her but also can't get the girl in him out of his mind. Yeah, it is great to be honest, and I hope more young cds take the lessons of us ancient ones to heart. But there are alot of reasons why that honesty doesn't always happen: Immaturity, ego, denial, and of course FEAR, to name only a few. Your'e doing a great service in bringing it up, cause I don't think it can be stressed enough. But it can be hard, especially when you're younger.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[Kate Simmons]

I give up... LOLDon't give up Hon. The hell with that. I value your thoughts and opinions just as much as anyone else's here. We don't always agree but how do we know how others feel if they don't tell us? You just keep right on posting your feelings, Hon. I appreciate them for sure.:hugs: Sal

[featherelizabeth]

first date (or before) the people I meet will know; always an advocate of the TRUTH


peace
feather

[Country girl]

God were sooo happy for you.... That you beat the odds and had 3 SO's that love crossdressers soooo much!! And now that you've sucked up to all the GGs on the forum... Hiding behind their skirts.. Ok maybe their jeans.... Hehehe

But for the majority that are in the closet and/or have SO's that won't never ever approve its virtual relationship suiside to come out and admit it!!! I know never would have if she hadn't found out!! And I don't recommend it unless your 110% sure to have an outcome as good as all yours appearently were... Was... Are....

So let's all go out ourselves and destroy our happy marriages and lives and kids lives..... Make for some really really great posts I'll bet!!! Lol

Some peoples kids......

Love Karren


Karren, I've always enjoyed your posts... up to now. How sad that you feel that this post is all about sucking up to all the GG's on this forum. I suppose that if your wife were lying and cheating on you that you would be just fine with that! NO???? Well then let me point out that whether your wife is accepting or not, honesty is always the best policy. And what it all boils down to is that that is all we are asking for. Honesty. :hugs: Country Girl GG

[AmberTG]

Honesty, ya, I would have liked to have gotten that from my soon-to-be x-wife.
After 4 years of her cheating and lying, now she's at least honest about her latest man. He's a manly man, no problems with his sexuality. Funny thing, my CDing is one of the things that attracted her to me when we started seeing each other about 7 years ago, now she wants a manly man. Such is life.

[Melanie R]

I will always believe that honesty about who you are is the only way to go in a relationship. When my ex in 1979 said she wanted to find a "real man" and wanted a divorce if I could not give up the dressing., I walked out the door and the divorce was final 6 months later. 5 years after my marriage to my loving wife, Peggy, my ex told me that she had met many "manly" men but came to realize that she had the best man - even if he enjoyed being a woman sometimes. She died suddenly at age 48 2 weeks after that talk.

[Carin's Wife GG]

Karren, I've always enjoyed your posts... up to now. How sad that you feel that this post is all about sucking up to all the GG's on this forum. I suppose that if your wife were lying and cheating on you that you would be just fine with that! NO???? Well then let me point out that whether your wife is accepting or not, honesty is always the best policy. And what it all boils down to is that that is all we are asking for. Honesty. :hugs: Country Girl GG


is what we are looking for, for sure. It really is the bedrock of any real relationship, IMO.


Louise.

[Carin's Wife GG]

Everyone loves honesty, until its about them. At that point the song changes, the key is different, and the lyrics are a whole new set.

on this one. The music might be different but the honesty is still worth the change in rythym.



Louise.