No love for the guys?

[Nicole]

Let's take a moment to think about how some of us relate to men. I've spent the last two hours burrowing through the archives and the same question keeps popping up, again and again: "I feel attracted to guys when I'm dressed en femme, but NEVER when I am in drab. Yuck!"

Why is that? How can men go from being these handsome, suave, strong, and intelligent creatures who stoke our feminine passions to objects of revulsion within seconds of removing our makeup? Doesn't that make us hypocritical? What kind of women are we if we push away the men once they are no longer 'of use' to us? "Sorry, but you only exist as my fantasy. It's great that you are buying me drinks and opening my doors and treating me like a queen, but I can't imagine actually loving you. It's all about me."

Have you ever been on the receiving end of that line? Not very nice, is it?

The next time you are tempted to say 'eeeEEEEWWWWW GROSS' about being with a man, it might help to remember that your SO probably feels the same way about you en femme. Is it fair to ask her to cross that line of discomfort when you can't do it yourself? Think about it. If we expect to be unconditionally accepted, shouldn't we be able to 'love beyond the exterior' in others, men included?

Just thinking out loud. It's way past my bedtime! :yawn:

[kerrianna]

Good point Karen. :hugs:

As I mentioned earlier this week on another thread I too was guilty of saying this. I realized this week that my thinking has changed as I've accepted myself, and in fact I'm looking at men in a whole new light. For the first time in my life I'm not seeing them in a harsh judgemental way (partly brought on by how I felt I was treated by my gender peers through my life). It doesn't mean I'll like, or love, all men (all people), but my mind is open to seeing all their good qualities now.

You're right. How would we want to be treated?

I believe our souls are either genderless or a balance of both, so I'm trying to look beyond things like gender, race, class, looks, etc...so I can truly appreciate the beauty of others and of myself.

[Opie!]

You have an excellent point, and this is why I am looking for a nice bi-sexual woman. Hind sight being what it is, and after getting together for my 10 year high school reunion recently, I found out that most of my girlfriends have been bi-sexuals. It isn't fair, though, to expect someone to suddenly change their sexuality because you have come to terms with your own. I'm still in intense negotiations with my lady friend about these issues, but, in the end, I'm mostly certain the relationship is over because of them.

[Jennifer_G_2]

I completely agree, and try be be concious of it as well as I go through some of the same emotions.

Jen

[stephani oneil]

Ive read a number of the posts you have written Karen and I am relieved that you are at last seeing things clearly. Your self indulgent desire to be the women you want to be seems to be at your wife's expense and although the feelings are often over powering for all of us, my wifes feelings were always paramount and I feel that little by little she has excepted me. Your post at last shows you are internalising and i am glad to know not the completely self obsessed person that I thought you were. regards Stephani

[Paulacder]

Have you ever seen those signs or sticker that are placed on the back of horse trailers," Shit Happens" The same applies here.

p.s. If you don't tell on yourself, then no one can tell on you.....

:heehee:

[Fab Karen]

I suspect some crossdressers before accepting their desire to dress, have latent fantasies about men ( this doesn't mean they're gay necessarily, plenty of people are bi or pansexual ), and after getting into dressing & being more femme, allow themselves the thoughts, whether or not they decide to act on them.
Personally I explored my interest in guys before I got into dressing, so it's not a new thing to me ( technically I guess I could be called pansexual as I enjoy women, T-girls, and men ).

[Kate Simmons]

Exactly Karen. Anyone who tries to tell me a "switch" is pulled when they are dressed up and they become attracted to guys when they are a "woman" is full of donkey dust and lying to themselves really. Somehow just dressing as a woman makes it "all right" when as a man they would never think of being with another guy. Come on, not only was I not born yesterday but there is nothing wrong with that anyway. How do they expect GG's to follow that flimsy line of reasoning like you say? Only a person who has truely grown is able to look past their own homophobia into their real feelings and accept them and manage them.
The other issue is what is your purpose ? If you dress like and act like a woman, you have to be expected you are going to be responded to like a woman and that includes being hit on and romanced. If you are not prepared for that better get out of the kitchen or go to safer places. It pays to advertise and that is exactly what guys think you are doing, especially if you look like a doll. Even if you are "clocked" some guys will treat you like a woman regardless and will have the same expectations.:happy:

[tamparay]

I have dated married men who came by the house for a drink and when they saw my painted toenails didnt like it or me wearing panties yet some loved it, Some men want another man in a masculine form and I wanted to entertain as a woman so men are as complicated as women sometimes huh?

[sara_also]

Exactly Karen. Anyone who tries to tell me a "switch" is pulled when they are dressed up and they become attracted to guys when they are a "woman" is full of donkey dust and lying to themselves really. Somehow just dressing as a woman makes it "all right" when as a man they would never think of being with another guy. Come on, not only was I not born yesterday but there is nothing wrong with that anyway. How do they expect GG's to follow that flimsy line of reasoning like you say? Only a person who has truely grown is able to look past their own homophobia into their real feelings and accept them and manage them.
The other issue is what is your purpose ? If you dress like and act like a woman, you have to be expected you are going to be responded to like a woman and that includes being hit on and romanced. If you are not prepared for that better get out of the kitchen or go to safer places. It pays to advertise and that is exactly what guys think you are doing, especially if you look like a doll. Even if you are "clocked" some guys will treat you like a woman regardless and will have the same expectations.:happy:


Ditto...............

[Sally24]

Good topic Karen! I think many of us are in that boat. I am monogamous so anything I do in drab or drag is just socializing. My wife has drawn the line at kissing or any other intimate contact. That doesn't mean I can't interact with men when I'm out as Sally. They should have no expectations because I wear a wedding ring and an engagement ring. So I do flirt with the admirers or an occasional gay man who compliments me. Hell, I flirt with the young girls who seem to have something about T-girls! I have the occasional fantasy involving men and I treat them fairly when out and about. If I was single than I would have to evaluate just how far my gender issues extend into the sexual field of things. As it is, I enjoy being treated like a lady by anyone, but men are a special treat and I try give them the respect they deserve.

[Toyah]

Let's take a moment to think about how some of us relate to men. I've spent the last two hours burrowing through the archives and the same question keeps popping up, again and again: "I feel attracted to guys when I'm dressed en femme, but NEVER when I am in drab. Yuck!"

Why is that? How can men go from being these handsome, suave, strong, and intelligent creatures who stoke our feminine passions to objects of revulsion within seconds of removing our makeup? Doesn't that make us hypocritical? What kind of women are we if we push away the men once they are no longer 'of use' to us? "Sorry, but you only exist as my fantasy. It's great that you are buying me drinks and opening my doors and treating me like a queen, but I can't imagine actually loving you. It's all about me."

Have you ever been on the receiving end of that line? Not very nice, is it?

The next time you are tempted to say 'eeeEEEEWWWWW GROSS' about being with a man, it might help to remember that your SO probably feels the same way about you en femme. Is it fair to ask her to cross that line of discomfort when you can't do it yourself? Think about it. If we expect to be unconditionally accepted, shouldn't we be able to 'love beyond the exterior' in others, men included?

Just thinking out loud. It's way past my bedtime! :yawn:

I apreciate the comment on what my wife may feel but she doesnt.
There is NO WAY that I would be attracted to a guy and lets face it you ain't talking emotionally here, either em fem me or drab. Men are as physically repulsive to me as animals does that make it clear it should do I am not attracted to em at all hell I have to work with em that's bad enough

[Nicole]

I apreciate the comment on what my wife may feel but she doesnt.
There is NO WAY that I would be attracted to a guy and lets face it you ain't talking emotionally here, either em fem me or drab. Men are as physically repulsive to me as animals does that make it clear it should do I am not attracted to em at all hell I have to work with em that's bad enough

LOL... OK, I get it, I get it. :) If you aren't attracted to men under any circumstances, no problem. We are all different. You are fortunate that your wife doesn't feel the same way about your CD'ing that you feel about guys!

[Toyah]

you are right honey and that's why you have to be honest not only with your SO but your self if you really want to be a woman go for it. I am afraid tho the TS route is not simple either I saw a program with a pre op TS the other day and she says why cannot people just accept me for who I am I just want to be loved. My heart went out to her she had what she thought what she wanted but not what everyone else does its a shame but sexual confusion does rein here it really shouldn't if you like guys you like em and that's it, its fine don't worry about it. I do know a few BI and gay CDs here I don't mind. Don't try to hit on me and I can be friends with anyone.
I don't mind if guys find Toyah attractive or not but I don't want to know about it that is why I don't go out because guys don't care if you are interested or not they don't give up.
Sorry if thats a bit rambling and did not mean to hijack this thread or misunderstand it

[Paulacder]

Salandre.....Donkey Dust...I love it he.he.he.:heehee:

[TxKimberly]

Good post and point. I have never understood how some say they feel or think differently when dressed or not dressed. We are the same people regardless of what we are wearing. I'm not slamming anyone, but I can't imagine why my sexual preference, or my feeling of compassion, or my view of the world would change based on if I am presenting male of female.
Kim

[Karren H]

Guys are such pigs..... don't know why women are attracted to them in the first palce... i'm sure not, in either mode....

Love Karren

[Shelly Preston]

Exactly Karen. Anyone who tries to tell me a "switch" is pulled when they are dressed up and they become attracted to guys when they are a "woman" is full of donkey dust and lying to themselves really.


I think those men who say that are seeing it from a different point of view
They would probably never approach a man in either mode, but when dressed as a woman they feel as if they should get the attention from men their appearence deserves

As a result they feel thy should be attracted to men

I suspect most of them aren't

[Deidra Cowen]

Guys are such pigs..... don't know why women are attracted to them in the first palce... i'm sure not, in either mode....

Love Karren

Don't hold back Karren..tell us what ya really think!!!! :heehee:

Most guys are indeed a mess...but every once in a while I find a nice hunky sweet guy. :devil:

Love GGs too, but I honestly think some of the sharpest people out there are Tgirls. Usually pretty damn smart, creative, brave and when a Tgirl nails da look...I honestly think there is nothing more pretty since I know how much work, effort and technique went into turning a guy into a girl. :thumbsup:

[jennie06]

I would have to fall into the category of not attracted to men either. Especially since since their seems to be one around 24/7 all the time anyway (kind of like a stalker right) but they do deserve to treated better and not just led on and then sent on their way.
Donkey dust? Such harsh language:heehee:

[Kate Simmons]

Guys are such pigs..... don't know why women are attracted to them in the first palce... i'm sure not, in either mode....

Love KarrenYou are absolutely right Karren and I could very well easily be an "oinker" along with the rest of them if I wanted to be. I choose not to however and never will no matter what. Must be a side benefit of being a crossdresser. I have the talent of making a fool of those macho types in more ways than one, another side benefit of acting like a woman. Hey, I tell it like it is, that's all.;) :happy:

[stellatoo]

I'm of the opinion that sexual desire is not an either/or situation.
I've met men in my male persona that I would/have fell for and I've met men who completly turn me off. It's the same with women-some do it for me (present G/f especially) some don't!

The only stipulation I have with men is that they like me "dressed" as well as undressed!

[Kate Simmons]

I think those men who say that are seeing it from a different point of view
They would probably never approach a man in either mode, but when dressed as a woman they feel as if they should get the attention from men their appearence deserves

As a result they feel thy should be attracted to men

I suspect most of them aren'tI know Shelly and I kind of agree with that.These feelings are confusing sometimes. One of the first things my wife asked me when I started going out en femme was:"Are you trying to attract a man?" I really had to think about that and decided I wasn't and was just doing it to feel good and have a good time. If a guy does get the wrong impression, I'm up front with him. I'm pretty much up front with everyone like that. Sometimes we may be confused as to what our motivation is though and that is why I questioned it. We have to be honest with ourselves first and foremost.:happy:

[Dixie]

If some of my posts were misleading, let me clarify. I have never had sex with a man while enfemme, I have had sex with men on a few occasions as aman. I found it not at all unpleasant but not what I would want all the time. However when I am dressed I seem to think about it all the time, I am thinking about it right now and am only wearing panties and a bra under my robe. I DO think about it when in drab, just not a lot thats all, if I am a hypocrit so be it, but remember "LABELS" and name calling is a two way street (and it usually leads to nowhere). :tongueout Dixie
P.S. the "tongue out" is just my sarcastic way of saying lighten up to each his/her own :D Love and Hugs Dixie

[Eva Diva]

Looks like the sexual attraction police are out in force today. :eek:

We're not dealing with civil rights here - no one is discriminating against men. I can think for myself, thank you very much, and I will decide who I have sex with, and when I do it, and where I do it.

I'm a live and let live person, but please don't tell me I'm a bad person if I don't have sex according to your rules. :mad:

[Nicole]

Looks like the sexual attraction police are out in force today. :eek:

We're not dealing with civil rights here - no one is discriminating against men. I can think for myself, thank you very much, and I will decide who I have sex with, and when I do it, and where I do it.

I'm a live and let live person, but please don't tell me I'm a bad person if I don't have sex according to your rules. :mad:

No need to be defensive, Eva. I didn't graduate from cadet school, so there will be no arrests on my watch. ;)

My intent was to strike up discussion about the two-way nature of attraction. Why does it change based upon how we present ourselves? How do our SO's feel about our change in turn? It is a sensitive topic sure to ruffle some feathers, but I believe it is worth examination. :happy:

[Minerva Morgan]

I have considered the fallacy of being a man dressing as a woman to be attractive to men who are attracted only to women; especially when men who are attracted to men would find a man dressed as a woman unattractive. I could expound on the irrationality of such expectations further, but I have never found a realistic explanation. I am definitely not gay (I really LIKE women), and the concept of being gay and dressing as a woman to attract gay men seems futile. Even so, I believe that I can honestly say that, when en femme, a switch does go on. I feel (to some degree) attractive and have a desire to attract; and would respond to expressions of attraction. In drab, I have no illusions about my appearance, and I believe I can honestly say have no attraction to or for men.
All my life I have admired women and lusted after them while admiring their beauty. A major factor of believing a woman to be beautiful is my perception of her degree of intelligence. On the other hand, when I have expressed the opinion, to women, that a certain man was attractive (without the lust); the women strongly disagree with my assessment. So, what do I know?
While I do fantasize about intimacy with a man, while en femme, I have never met a man to whom I find myself drawn to. Perhaps this is because no man has seen me en femme. Also, my crossdressing, until recently, has necessarily been sporadic. This has caused me to face the reality of my bi-sexuality; an issue which had never really arisen before. Since my mind is not fully manacled by strictures of religion or by mindlessly adopted morality (at least not much), I have no difficulty with it.
The intriguing question that is raised here is; if I became intimate with a man while dressed, could I maintain that intimacy when in drab? While I might be able to display a certain polite and withdrawn affection, I would be reluctant to act upon it. In other words, he would be a sex-object, to be used only when I needed him; a distinctly (but not wholly) male attitude. I confess the fault, but cannot be otherwise.
Within these posts I have noted a wide variation from absolutely no sex with men to sex with anyone. I assume each of us are within this rather wide range, and have limitations we can neither explain nor travel beyond. All-in-all, I feel that the statement:

"I feel attracted to guys when I'm dressed en femme, but NEVER when I am in drab. Yuck!"

DOES apply to me. I recognize the unfairness of it, but that is the way I am. As for:

"Sorry, but you only exist as my fantasy. It's great that you are buying me drinks and opening my doors and treating me like a queen, but I can't imagine actually loving you. It's all about me."

yes, I have been given variations of that line, and do not (at least now) bear any hard feelings.
As for attraction to other CD's, I do feel some (well, a lot of you ladies are VERY attractive), but only insofar as they present as women. Since I am probably incapable of performing as a 'top' in such cases, I doubt if I would be of any use to another CD, or that they would be attracted to me; at least as a man. As to whether my SO finds me attractive as a women (and she definitely has no bi tendencies) she has expressed the opinion that, when dressed, I am (solely aesthetically) attractive. As to intimacy, while I love her, her libido has faded to nothing. We have not been intimate for a considerable amount of time (probably a factor relating to my crossdressing) and the question as to whether she 'needs' me as a man seems moot.
I guess, as a man, I am the (wholly heterosexual) grump; and as a woman, I am manipulative (or would like to be); but would hope to be tender about it.
Perhaps I am incorrect in my self-assessment. Sex is addictive, and I may well be capable of any variation. I would recommend that anyone take care as to the protestations they make, as life can be unexpected. As the matter is unlikely to be tested, I can only express my immediate impressions. These indicate to me that the (admittedly irrational) statement that I am only interested in men when dressed is factual and not neccessarily unusual.

Love

Minerva

[Kate Simmons]

I got the point and intention of your thread Karen. No one is trying to judge anyone else really or what their sexual attractions are, real or imagined. All I'm saying is be honest with yourself and your feelings, otherwise you may get something you didn't count on or bargain for.:happy:

[Nicole]

All I'm saying is be honest with yourself and your feelings, otherwise you may get something you didn't count on or bargain for.:happy:

So true! We dabble in powerful illusions that touch upon some of our deepest feelings. Sometimes the answers we get can be unnerving (and contradictory), but I agree that honesty is the only way to master the confusion inside and out. It takes courage to gaze deeply into that mirror!

[Leah B]

Guys are such pigs..... don't know why women are attracted to them in the first palce... i'm sure not, in either mode....

Love Karren

Y'know, as a guy, I take offense to that. It's not really fair to paint us with the same broad brush. And it's worse when it comes from men. Women back each other up; they speak up when people use stereotypes against them. We're crossdressers, but we (most of us) are still men. Must we denigrate ourselves?

[Melissa A.]

Maybe it's true. Maybe those who say they feel a "switch" when female are full of hogwash. Maybe. But I think the idea that somehow that feeling isn't accompanied with some thought, feelings, and knowledge of the possible inconsistencies and reppurcussions is equally presumptuous.

I don't know if I can control the way I feel. Or if there is some kind of evolution Happening here. My attraction to men, as Melissa, is real. That is honest. Equally honest is that being atracted to men as a man is a feeling that at this point, just isn't there. A few years ago, wanting to be physically intimate with a man was something I never really thought much, or worried much about. Those feelings kinda snuck up on me. Having been intimate with two men, and one tg person, I can say, honestly, that I enjoyed it very much each time and have no regrets. I can also honestly say that at this time, I Do not want a long term, romantic relationship with one. (Although the word "YUCK" does not enter into my thinking.) Does that make me hypocritical? a user? not introspective? less than honest with others? I think the answers to those questions are far from empirical. They are opinions. Every one is entitled to one, or to not have one. I don't think "full of whatever" is a fair opinion.

Do you honestly think, that as a lifetime hetero cd who suddenly found herself attracted to guys, that I haven't given these things a thought? That I don't worry about the inconsistencies? Or hurting other people? C'mon! One would have to be completely oblivious not to. I've thought about what this all means till my head hurts, Ladies! And I am careful to be honest with others about my intentions and expectations. And I try as best I can to be honest with myself, Until I have more information, and can come up with a better answer.

There is alot I don't know for sure. The journey that started a few years ago when the self-acceptance finally came along is a long way from over. I learn more every day, and just as much I'm not sure about. Is my attraction to men as Melissa simply a social phenomenon? A desire to "do what girls do"? Am I latently Homosexual? I DON'T KNOW. That is honest. But to imply that I don't worry or think about it is just as oblivious as girls with feelings like mine are being portrayed as here. Just because you see something as obvious doesn't make that opinion automatically valid and universal truth. Some things, like the earth being round, are fact. I don't know if that opinion is. I know that just saying it doesn't necessarilly make it so. Discounting other's true, honest feelings while saying it ain't really fair. I don't know the answer to this issue, in total. But I'm trying. And I am trying to be nice, and open minded, but my feelings are far from hogwash.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[Alice Torn]

Leah, I think Karren was just getting us, to lighten up a little. She has said she enjoys her guy side much, too. As for me, I do seem, to feel a bit like a lady, when dressed, and am turned on, by what I see in the mirror, and do tend, to fantasize being with a certain type of guy, but, as soon as I undress, there goes, all that thinking away! I must admit, it is selfish, self-centered. I have had plenty of guys, wanting to meet up, from personal ads, but, I have not acted on any. Cding is addictive, to me, when I do it, and, alway., that switch goes on, fantasizing having someone enraptured by Lucille, but, the switch always gets turned off, after changing into drab. We are all a little different, in this stuff.

[joann07]

When I'm dressed, I change to female mode (i.e. walk, mannerisms, etc.) and it makes me feel great, but I'm in no way attracted to men.

[5inchHeels]

"If he's not able to fulfill a desire with other t-girls, he will sometimes end up in the embraces of a masculine male. His role is "needing attention" as a woman. .... His attraction to a masculine male is governed by a number of things - but unless he is really homosexual (rare) - his desire is not really "sexual based" - but recognition based. "
http://www.reneereyes.com/Webdocs/rel-witch.htm

The quote and article hit spot on why I can be aroused by men when dressed but am generally not when in drab.

[Kate Simmons]

Karen, once again, thanks for starting this thread. It's a real eye opener as far as I'm concerned. No one said anyone had to share their private thoughts but sometimes it's good to get those feelings out and "on paper" so to speak. Otherwise they are rambling around in our heads and it's good to get them out and address them before they are "acted out" either intentionally or unintentionally. Gives us somewhat of a perspective. It's also good for others to see what kinds of feelings we have and it shows we are not alone with those feelings. Also, don't think that the genetic ladies with SO's that CD are not looking at this with keen interest. It's best we are aware of and address such potential issues before we get into a situation where our feelings overwhealm us and we end up being sorry. Don't say it cannot happen because we are all human and feelings are very powerful and hard to deny sometimes. As I said, we owe it to ourselves to be honest with ourselves concerning our feelings.:happy:

[Karren H]

Y'know, as a guy, I take offense to that. It's not really fair to paint us with the same broad brush. And it's worse when it comes from men. Women back each other up; they speak up when people use stereotypes against them. We're crossdressers, but we (most of us) are still men. Must we denigrate ourselves?

Well hang with the guys in the hockey locker room a while and deep down they are all the same..... BELCH........ When a guy on the other team tells our female player that she can b**w him after the game..... I lost all respect for us males.......

Karren

[Melissa A.]

Karen is it the Men you disdain or the pants that they wear.

I like people but do not think about guys in a romantic or sexual way.
If you are thinking about guys only when dressed you are suppresing your sexuallty,most likely due to what society has taught you is acceptable and like some others have alluded to you are not be true to yourself.

Maybe you didn't read my entire post. Or the one 5inchheels just wrote. Or maybe ya read them both and don't care. Being told that you are not being honest with yourself, after carefully explaining how you are, is, well, AAAAAAARGH!

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[Fab Karen]

Well hang with the guys in the hockey locker room a while and deep down they are all the same..... BELCH........ When a guy on the other team tells our female player that she can b**w him after the game..... I lost all respect for us males.......

Karren
There are plenty of guys who are nothing like that. If you really think all guys are that way, you haven't met many.

[michelleupnorth]

I'm bi so for me it has never been an issue. I would be comfortable with a nice guy or a nice girl. Doesn't matter what I'm wearing

[Leah B]

Well hang with the guys in the hockey locker room a while and deep down they are all the same..... BELCH........ When a guy on the other team tells our female player that she can b**w him after the game..... I lost all respect for us males.......

Karren

What about yourself though. Are you a pig? Or are you an exception? Remember that exceptions are a part of the whole. You've rejected at least some male norms. You've kinda had to, right? You should know as well as any other that a lot of this machismo garbage is false. Peer pressure is a son of a -- ain't it? I'm sure some men believe in this act. Some men buy into it. Some men are along for the ride. But any self-accepting crossdresser knows it's not so easy to cast away this socialization.

Regardless, locker room experiences, even a lifetime of them, does not give you the right to generalize us. I like you Karen. I admire you, even. But I do take it personally when you lump me and every man together because of sex. You don't get to call me a pig until you get to know me.

[Billijo49504]

Not even in my dreams, would i be attracted to men...BJ

[Carin's Wife GG]

I can be blunt and say I am Bi. It took YEARS for me to realize this fact. It was STILL difficult to understand Carin's desire to be at least part time female.

What is wrong with having fantasies about same/opposite sex within a monogomous relationship? I won't speak for Carin (lol, ,lol, inside joke) but if she fantasizes about men OR women why would *I* be threatened? (I have felt threatened in the past so I am not trying whitewash this in any way). We have decent (but not perfect) communication and can now share with one another our fantasies.

One other thing...at some point during the act of lovemaking gender for me becomes irrelevant. It is the person that is there in whatever persona that makes themselves known to me on a very deep level that is of the most importance.



Louise.

[AmandaM]

I think that the CDing, if only for sexual kicks, is one thing. But, if you have TS feelings also, then this sexual attraction could be brought out when you externalize the female inside. In other words, when your femaleness emerges, it may include all facets of the female mind, emotion, sexual identity, etc. In this regard, someone CAN be het when in drab and het when femme.


BTW, I have no desire for men when I'm a man, and yes, I've tried it. I couldn't, er, continue. But enfemme, hmmm...I feel different...I feel....female. I cannot separate the female from the desire. As far as I'm concerned, if you want to think I'm kidding myself and reject these ideas, then oh well, believe as you will.

[Nicole]

Thanks everyone for contributing your 2c to this thread. If anyone feels like a 'hypocrite', it is me. I am not used to having so many strong feelings hit me from all different directions. Feeling hypocritical of myself probably won't help, so I'll just accept for the moment that a bit more experience is all I need to find that magic balance.

Once again, I'm pondering too much in the wee hours. This is the kind of behavior that made it necessary to separate me from the other children in school. :heehee:

[kerrianna]

I sometimes think we have a tendancy to try to simplify things too much, especially when we try to figure our feelings. The fact is we are incredibly complex creatures and always, as individuals and as a society, are in flux and constant change.

The way we see ourselves, express ourselves, the doors we unlock, willingly or otherwise, all lead to different emotions and experiences. I know when I dress for my landscaping job in my work boots and work clothes, I feel tougher, more masculine and that suits the state of mind I need to be in to do the job efficiently. Dressing en femme has allowed me to reach that very feminine girl which exists inside me, an expression I haven't felt comfortable showing to the outside world before. And part of that girl really likes men, not just because they can make her feel like a girl, but because she JUST DOES. I guess that makes me bi, or whatever. I once told this forum I thought my dog was sexy, and she is. It doesn't mean I'm into beastiality - and it doesn't mean anything about me. It's just that I recognize a certain 'energy' about life. I don't care about labels. What I think is cool about the way I see the world now, now that my inner girl has equal (if not more :heehee: ) control of the binoculars, is that I'm not judging anyone on what they are. More on who they are and how their behaviour makes me feel. Obviously I'm not going to be enamoured with some of Karren's hockey teammates...but I might be of a few...or of Karren. Or maybe that cute, brave ref who gave Karren a 10 minute misconduct for high heeling. :heehee:

The point is I am who I am, in all my glory and all my shame, and whoever I find attractive is who they are in all their glory and all their shame. And if we treat each other with respect, compassion and love then what does it matter what anyone (inlcuding that self-critical voice in our heads) thinks or says?

[leggy_tiana]

I believe the attraction towards men when dressed is directly related to our own desire to be treated and accepted as ladies. It is very encouraging and flattering when a man tells me I look femininely attractive. I know that I am doing something right, otherwise, he would not have made that comment. Men have the power to make us feel femininely desirable, which I would think is every girls' need. I think that is at the essense of being more accepting to men when dressed.

[Karren H]

What about yourself though. Are you a pig? Or are you an exception? Remember that exceptions are a part of the whole. You've rejected at least some male norms. You've kinda had to, right? You should know as well as any other that a lot of this machismo garbage is false. Peer pressure is a son of a -- ain't it? I'm sure some men believe in this act. Some men buy into it. Some men are along for the ride. But any self-accepting crossdresser knows it's not so easy to cast away this socialization.

Regardless, locker room experiences, even a lifetime of them, does not give you the right to generalize us. I like you Karen. I admire you, even. But I do take it personally when you lump me and every man together because of sex. You don't get to call me a pig until you get to know me.

Hehehe... Ohhh I'm not like the pig guys at all!!! lol.......

:tongueout

Love Karren

[TxKimberly]

Y'know, as a guy, I take offense to that. It's not really fair to paint us with the same broad brush. And it's worse when it comes from men. Women back each other up; they speak up when people use stereotypes against them. We're crossdressers, but we (most of us) are still men. Must we denigrate ourselves?


Leah,
I don't know how long you have been at this site, but if you stick around a while and take a look at most of Karen's posts (the gurl that posted that comment) you will find that she was cursed with a sense of humor and sarcasm. We've tried to have it removed but it grew back. We've tried an intervention - she didn't show up! We found her weeks later hitch hiking through the outback in Australia. She had taken her truck with her, but when we found her she mumbled something about locking her keys in it.
Anyway, while I don't speak for Karen, it's a fair bet it was just a joke and just a touch of self depreciating humor, so I wouldn't be TOO offended about it.
Kim

[RuthieER]

I'm bi so for me it has never been an issue. I would be comfortable with a nice guy or a nice girl. Doesn't matter what I'm wearing

I can relate to this. When I was 16 I discovered two things at about the same time, but both quite separate at first. One that I was bisexual; there were some guys that I wanted to make love to me as much as I wanted to make love to some girls. The other was crossdressing. I very soon combined these two new discoveries so that my attraction to men was part and parcel of my desire to dress and look like a woman. There was probably a psychological rationalization process going on: I might be attracted to men, but, since I was a being so as a woman, it was still heterosexual, and therefore it was OK. At that time, bisexuality was little understood, and often viewed by gays as "fence-sitting"; an easy out for people who were too homophobic or ashamed to admit they were really gay. It was very confusing for me, because I knew I was also attracted to women, so I wasn't gay. That made my feelings of being a total weirdo even more accuute, and it took me years to rid myself of the shame and guilt and fear surrounding my gender identity and my sexual orrientation. Whew! Anyway, I'm now very comfortable as Bi CD. But it is hard to find a man I am attracted to, who is attracted to me as a CD, is comfortable with his own sexuality, and is a nice guy as well!

Ruthie

[Angie G]

I have a lot of guy frinds but I don't want sex with them if I in guy or girl mode I have wondered what it's like but no intrest in finding out :hugs:
Angie

[Melissa A.]

Maybe you didn't read my entire post. Or the one 5inchheels just wrote. Or maybe ya read them both and don't care. Being told that you are not being honest with yourself, after carefully explaining how you are, is, well, AAAAAAARGH!

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

I apologise to everyone for this post. I have always tried to keep discussions civil and not take things personally. Or to be that vain. This time I failed, and I am very sorry.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[Deborah]

That's ok we still love you Melissa. :D

[Minerva Morgan]

Actually, Melissa, if that is your photo then you have every right to be vain. Well, a little.

Love

Minerva

[Melissa A.]

Thank you, Deborah!!

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[Melissa A.]

And Thank YOU, Minerva, sweetie!

Conffession isn't just good for the soul, it also gets ya compliments! Yay! Who knew?

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[Kate Simmons]

Never gave it a second thought Melissa. We can't all be cheerful all the time (especially if we break a damn nail).:happy:

[Dixie]

I guess I'm confused, what does it matter What "Label" (I hate labels) We fall under as long as we are our selves and honest about it, and aren't trying to hurt others, we should not have to apoligize or excuse ourselves or even to "play" by someones idea of "the rules" to love. I guess what I am rambling about is we shouldn't be told how to pursue life, love, and happiness anymore than we ehould tell others how to do the same. It is support we need from each other, NOT contraversy.
Love Dixie

[JoannaDees]

Karen ... I think dressing for some opens the closet door with the sex angle, and when the angle of the dangle goes down, wham shuts the door. The "dressers" claiming 10000% straight I don't understand (don't have to, don't need to, total acceptance assured ... you too Toyah you vinyl vixen), the fetishist I understand and it's all good (more acceptance of the varied human existence), and for we that remain it's a confusing WTF is going on world.

[Sweet Jane]

The next time you are tempted to say 'eeeEEEEWWWWW GROSS' about being with a man, it might help to remember that your SO probably feels the same way about you en femme. Is it fair to ask her to cross that line of discomfort when you can't do it yourself? Think about it. If we expect to be unconditionally accepted, shouldn't we be able to 'love beyond the exterior' in others, men included?

Just thinking out loud. It's way past my bedtime! :yawn:

Hi Karen...dressed or not, I think of men as eeeEEEWWWWW!! I totally agree with what you say about our wives and our dressing. I have never dressed with or for my wife who now knows all about this. I haven't even showed her my picture dressed, simply because I appreciate that she married a guy, and supposedly she wants to be with a guy. I can accept and live like this, because after all I have been this way all my life, so it'll be no change. So in short....yes, I put my wife somewhat higher in priority than sweetjane ever will be...and no, I never will be sexually interested in men. I have a lot of men friends, and thats all they are....friends.

[Roxi Loh]

Don't hold back Karren..tell us what ya really think!!!! :heehee:

Most guys are indeed a mess...but every once in a while I find a nice hunky sweet guy. :devil:

Love GGs too, but I honestly think some of the sharpest people out there are Tgirls. Usually pretty damn smart, creative, brave and when a Tgirl nails da look...I honestly think there is nothing more pretty since I know how much work, effort and technique went into turning a guy into a girl. :thumbsup:I agree with Deidra...we crossdressers are some pretty awsome people if we do say so ourselves.