Sexual reality check

[sherri]

SO issues concern all of us enormously, particularly wives and girlfriends. Even those of us who aren't in a relationship are interested, and most would like to find a suitable companion. I have followed related threads with great interest ever since I joined the forum.

Aloha Dana's recent posts (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5337) in particular prompted some of the thoughts expressed below, but I didn't want to hijack her thread, so I've started this one in the hopes of spawning honest, thoughtful discussion of at least one aspect of a CD + wife relationship — sex — simply because I think most of us would agree that rare is the relationship that can survive sexual conflict or dysfunction. Of particular interest is Dana's admirably frank mention of his "kinky" tastes, CDing as a form of sexual stimulation and his wife's far more conventional inclinations.

Note: please bear with my use of some generic terms — kinky, vanilla sex, normal, etc — in order not to get mired down in semantics. I think we all know the associations these terms usually convey. Also, those of you who dislike long posts might want to skip this thread. These kinds of issues are far too important for glibness, and I hope contributors will speak at whatever length they need to express their thoughts.

Thought #1: On the physical level, Dana's wife's revulsion (a feminized man "grosses her out") strikes me as perfectly normal. To understand how she feels, just mentally reverse your roles — you're straight and she wants to be a man — and do a gut check on how you would feel. Dana's posts have made me realize that a CD is asking his wife to not only accept his abnormality, but to also become abnormal with him. Now before you react in predictable ways, I'll grant you that to an extent such a concept of normal is predicated on pre-conceived social mores, but that doesn't change the fact that this conditioning is very real and deeply ingrained. Moreover, there's not a general population opinion forum in the world that wouldn't resoundingly validate her sense of normalcy.

Thought #2: A former SO of mine likes sex — in fact, she loves it. Over the years we played our share of games, mostly at my prompting, just to spice things up. (These games did not include CDing as I hadn't begun that yet.) She played along, even enjoyed most of them, but we both knew that given a choice, she would always opt for "vanilla" sex — let's just get in bed and get it on, no games, no props, no kink. I think this is far and away most women's preference. For most women, the voluntary limit of experimentation is different positions and oral, and some women, indisputably repressed, can't even handle that. I might add that my experience has taught me that many women fantasize just as much as men (take your pick — sex with a stranger, bi-sexual, stripper, orgy, etc), and can enjoy incorporating the vocalization of fantasy into their lovemaking, but when push comes to shove they aren't really interested in acting on those fantasies. (Caveat: see Thought #5 below.)

Thought #3: I believe that it is natural for a woman to react to her man's taste for kink with the nagging worry that she isn't exciting enough for him anymore. Remember when you were dating and you just couldn't wait to get her clothes off, when that was all the stimulation you needed? In her heart, that's the way she wants it to always be, no matter that neither of you is as physically attractive anymore, no matter that you've "done it" a gazillion times, no matter that a man might be using kink as a substitute for his natural inclination to have sex with multiple partners. This is just how she is emotionally and biologically wired.

Thought #4: An inherent characteristic of kink is that it is progressive, CDing being but one example. An insidious characteristic of kink is that it tends to displace the ability to be stimulated by or satisfied with vanilla. I think women know this instinctively and is why so many of them worry about how far their man wants to take CDing, and whether the time may come when he is no longer satisfied with just one sexual partner or one gender.

Thought #5: The one fantasy statistics suggest more and more women are willing to act on is adultery. If a CDer doesn't handle his woman's issues and needs sensitively and responsibly, and assuming she sticks with him, I would think he has upped the odds of her having an affair. If she doesn't get what she needs from her mate, she may actively seek it elsewhere, or passively succumb to the opportunity should it present itself. She might stick with the marriage because of emotional ties or out of a sense of responsibility, but her craving for the conventional male-female dynamic may become too strong to resist. If she has an affair, you can bet that the sex is going to be vanilla — conventional gender roles, conventional stimuli, uncomplicated sex.

[ChristineRenee]

Very good post Sherri. Very thought provoking and insightful. There is nothing inherently wrong with "vanilla" sex, so to speak. But many people like to try the "31" flavors out too. It can help keep the sexual aspect of marriage fresh and stimulating. Where problems arise is when both partners have vastly different attitudes and concepts about what the sexual realtionship between them should be. Some partner's are naturally more inquisitive, or just have much more imagination, i.e., role playing, fantasy, etc. Again, this is where attitude, and trying to meet the needs of your partner come into play. Those that are put off by that which is abhorrent to them...and that abhorrency can vary by a very large degree...really limit the potential enjoyment that can be obtained by just letting yourself go and getting caught up in the moment. It all comes down to the individual and what you want out of the relationship from the sexual standpoint here.

Good topic and thread Sherri!

Love,
Chrissie:)

[Aloha_Dana]

Sherri, you are definately raising the bar here. Are you a psychologist or a lawyer? ;)

Thanks for referencing my post. I'm simply glad that it has spawned some thought (and greatful for the invaluable feedback).

I have to agree w/your thoughts (all of them). With regards to the sexual aspect, my wife has definately expressed feelings in-line w/thoughts 3 and 4. At one point she was in tears asking why the vanilla wasn't good enough anymore. And in another conversation she has asked where is it going to end? So you're right on the mark, at least w/our relationship.

With regards to thought 5, you bring a good point that breaking society's norms does put the relationship at risk and sets the stage for a SO to go outside to get back to her comfort zone. This is probably why the time factor, slow and easy, is so important when we out ourselves. Taking all this into account, it is probably wise for those who are planning to, or have already done so, to step back and reassure their SO's that she is central to his relationship through words and actions such as vanilla sex.

[Ariel_TV]

Good thread!

Personnally my experience with my girlfriend has been completly different but that prolly because my girlfriend loves kinky stuff. And it not because she wants to please me , i can see her eyes light up when we get a new toy or try a new thing.

For my cding it easy since my girlfriend is bisexual , she finds it very stimulating and excites her alot . It the best of both world for her , she gets everything a mans got but with the looks and softeness of a woman. Also when we make love we both strive to bring maximum pleasure to the other, it not about ourselves but about the person we are trying to bring pleasure too. It brings a great dynamic where the pleasure of the other bring pleasure to yourself. Since she knows my cding bring me alot of pleasure it turns her on and in turn turns me on since i know she is excited by it making our love sessions more intense for both of us.

[Priscilla1018]

Hi Sherri,

Very interesting thread. Personaly, I have not had even vanilla sex with my wife or anyone else since 1987.Why it stopped? I do'nt know. Yet our love for each other goes beyond sex.I came out to my wife two weeks ago, her first question was, what do you want from me? My answere was ,only understanding.She has accepted me as I am, and as far sex goes, she has been grabing my butt alot to feel the panties under my jeans. Who knows I may get lucky.
Over the years I have had many opportunities to have sex with other women but.have never taken advantage of them. I am sure my wife has had opportunities also, I do'nt believe she has acted on them either. I am just
taking small steps for now and life is good until,of course my depression acts up again. It's been happening a lot more lately.
Wow this is turning into too much of a downer.

Sorry if I am so depressing,
Love and Hugs,
Priscilla

[Ashleigh]

Sherri,

Thanks so much for this thread. I was actually in the process of building a thread just like this in response to LorieCrowe's thread that started quite a response. You have covered the information masterfully so I will let it stand also since you did a better job than I would have. There is one section of my post that I will retain and add to this thread when I get it finalized that will dovetail with your starter.

Meanwhile, WELL DONE!

[sherri]

But many people like to try the "31" flavors out too. It can help keep the sexual aspect of marriage fresh and stimulating.
Hey, personally I'm right there with ya, Chrissie. Trying to maintain a certain sexual piquancy over the long haul can be a challenge (plus I'm just naturally naughty by nature :D).

The problems arise when you have a vanilla | spicy conflict and the partners get stubborn about things.

[sherri]

my girlfriend loves kinky stuff. And it not because she wants to please me , i can see her eyes light up when we get a new toy or try a new thing.
I know they're out there, and I've experienced a little of that. I'm glad you posted. The exception sheds light on the norm, and on what realistic goals can be.

[sherri]

Sherri, you are definately raising the bar here. Are you a psychologist or a lawyer? ;)
:p Neither. Just a deep sleeper.

[sherri]

Personaly, I have not had even vanilla sex with my wife or anyone else since 1987....and as far sex goes, she has been grabing my butt alot to feel the panties under my jeans. Who knows I may get lucky.
Damn Priscilla, I thought I was going through a dry spell!

Wouldn't it be wonderful if crossdressing led to the resurrection of your sex life?!? Now that would be a story.

[sherri]

Sherri,

Thanks so much for this thread. I was actually in the process of building a thread just like this in response to LorieCrowe's thread that started quite a response. You have covered the information masterfully so I will let it stand also since you did a better job than I would have. There is one section of my post that I will retain and add to this thread when I get it finalized that will dovetail with your starter.

Meanwhile, WELL DONE!
I can't wait to read your post!

[sherri]

You're certainly forcing me to tap on my noggin here Sherri. I love it -- making us think about our SO's for once instead of just ourselves ... I could touch on your other points as well, as they pertain to my own experience, but this reply has grown long enough. Nevertheless, just writing about it is very therapeutic.

Thank you. :)
What a great post, Sharon. I was very moved by it. Very. Thank you.

What a great example you were in your marriage. Striving for balance, not just thinking of yourself, soliciting her growth and expression. It seems to me that a key ingredient of successful integration would be the setting aside of our own stimuli at least some of the time in order to give our wives the more traditional attention they desire.

Please please keep posting.

xoxo

[Krissi]

Great thread as always Sherri, got me ol head a spinnin today thinkin on this topic. I've got a few points to add of my own. More like X Factors I guess, but here goes.

1. Kids - My wife and I don't have kids yet, but we keep my 5 yo nephew a lot. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but those ankle biters can sap the energy right out of you. :p I would think with kids around, especially if they are sleeping nearby the only flavor you're getting is vanilla, let alone any of the CD toppings.

2. Time - This is a biggie with us. When she works (and she finally got a new job, yeah!!!) she works retail, so she sees some really weird hours. There have been times that we have literally had to schedule sex, just to make sure that I stayed up late, or she got up early so we could. That kind of life can lead to nothin but vanilla in a hurry. Her last job was at Starbucks, her store was open from anywhere from 5:00 am til Midnight, and she they kept moving her to new stores further away, at the end she was driving more than an hour to get to work. That was the worst, that's where the scheduling came in.

3. Her - This is probably more along your original thoughts Sherri, but I am blessed to have a wife that considers herself somewhat bi-curious. Acutally she is such a guy about this. She wants one night with Pam Anderson (she has a thing for big breasted blondes) just to see what its like, and of course I say you and me both. Anyway, she has curiousities, fantasies, and fetishes she may never persue for real, but she lends her own creative juices to our sex life so that its not just me living out dreams. Me dressing and us playing different things lends its self well to her Bi-curiousness and other fantasies depending on what we do.

4. Passability - Look I made up a new word...lol. I'm a big girl, at 6'2 230lbs, size 15 feet, big hands, broad shoulders, etc I'll never pass as a woman on this planet. I have a pretty face, great legs and butt, however when it is all said and done, my wife doesn't have to worry about me becoming a woman (because thats not my desire) or me dressing up and going out on the town to meet men. There are some girls here that I have to remember which site I'm on when I look at them, they can be that convincing. I think those like that probably face more tension from our wives than I do. I'm a small town, country boy, redneck, ex jock that loves to dress and act like a woman at times. My wife has talked to me about how if I was passable she would be more worried about that even though she knows what kind of person I am.

I probably ventured more into just married life and sex in general, but those things can effect what kind of sex we have as well as how often. My wife and I have high sex drives and wild imaginations, but there are times that wham bam thank you maam is the way of the world.

[ToniB]

What a great thread. We're getting real heavy here, but it all makes a lot of sense.

Ariel, can you get your girlfriend to talk to my wife and tell her what she's missing? Please!

ToniB

[Wendy me]

my wife and i have hade our ups and downs in our marrage ........sex from wam bam thank you mam.............to hanging from the celing........toung tyed and twisted.........
through the good and the bad ............never cheating..........marryed is marryed ..........no dateing alowed .........mabey old fashion but thats that........



can you see me now??????????????

[racheal]

my wife and i have hade our ups and downs in our marrage ........sex from wam bam thank you mam.............to hanging from the celing........toung tyed and twisted.........
through the good and the bad ............never cheating..........marryed is marryed ..........no dateing alowed .........mabey old fashion but thats that........

Hmmm, Wendy - that's an interesting time (and time again). :)

[Holly]

Sherri,

Most thought provoking. Don't know that I'll be able to shed any new light on anything but here goes...

I'm a highly monogomus hetro male. I've been married to the same wonderful woman for over 36 years. She constantly amazes me. I respect her enough that I will not discuss the most intimate part of our lives together publically. What I will say is that both of us have made it a point to put the other first in the physical aspect of our relationship.

On thought #1- I think you have an insight here. Most of it, unfortunately, caused by a society that has conditioned us to react in a negative manner to anything considered "deviant." Too bad... causes a lot of unnecessary stress on all kinds of relationships... male-female, black-white, gay-straight, etc.

On thought #2- Frankly, I see nothing wrong or boring with vanilla. Besides, vanilla can be "spiced up" with a little whipped cream, a few chopped nuts (no pun intended... okay, maybe a small one), fruit topping, chocolate fudge, M&M's, and on and on and on.

On thought #3- I can understand your point of view but I don't think it's just the kink that plants seeds of doubt in the mind of our GG's. "Does this outfit make me look fat?" "Why don't you tell me you love me?" "How do you like my hair?" You are absolutely right, IMO, when you state that's how they are wired emotionally. Women love being reaffirmed of their femeninity, desirability, and sexual attractiveness. Heck, many of us feel the same way!

On thought #4- I'm just not convienced that kink is necessarily progressive. Perhaps it is more that we are not being honest with ourselves when we embark on a path of what our ultimate goal will be. I'm probabably as guilty of this as anyone. And often it is not intentional, just sloppy thoughts and not looking at the long range. I blame society for this also with the gratify now and to heck with the future attitude forced upon us in nearly every advertisement we see.

On thought #5- Again I don't believe this phenomenum to be particular to the CD community. Statistics show divorce to be up across the board. Anyone, be they CD, gay, "vanilla", or whatever, who doesn't take care of the total health and well being of their partner runs the risk of pushing them into the arms of someone who will. As CD's are we more at risk? Dunno.

That's my $.02.

[Marlene4a]

Good thread Sherri:

Almost 2 decades ago now, there were some big problems. The problems were not with my gorgeous wife, but with me.
Once I accepted this phenomenon, then all was well.

Problems now?....none, zip, nada, zen and zoodle.
But it is never flaunted, or forced. Just a way of life in our household.
Matter of fact, my wife is my biggest fan, and helps tremendously with my make-up, etc.
She is secure. She knows she will never lose me to another woman. (32 years?) ( Where the h....., would either of us go?)
After all, who but she alone, would understand me.?

I guess it all boils down to one thing for both of us ( kids are grown and gone). Freedom.


Me

[Helana]

Sherri

How funny that I read this as for some unknown reason I had some similar thoughts this morning about sexuality and CDing and what it means to our SOs.

I agree with you that many women have no desire to join in our "abnormal" behavoir, and realistically unless you know she is sexually ambitious you should understand that it really is a big no-no. I would never coerce my SO into doing anything against her will.

I also agree that while some women are sexually liberated and can reach orgasms easily, for most women sex, while very enjoyable, is a physical affirmation of the relationship and their attractiveness to their partner. When a man loses his sexual appetite even for a short time, the women tends to get worried, very quickly and thinks the worst because she thinks it has to do with her.

Vanilla sex is normally just fine for women as they are still getting their emotional fill but for men we need to explore our sexual fantasies so that we can continue obtaining the maximum sensation. Thus different positions are tried but these soon get routine too, then different locations are tried, again it can become routine, then they may start looking for "danger" by doing it where they could be easily caught etc. Each is an escalation and usually it is the man who is pushing this. I wonder how often the women just goes along because she knows that she must in order to keep her man satisfied.

My girlfriend is an interesting example. She is not into kinky things like bondage, humiliation, role playing etc at all - she is mostly a vanilla girl. However on a trip overseas I bought some strap-on dildos and then showed them to her upon my return. She was somewhat surprised!! - this was something she had never seen or even thought about. Anyway I did not push it but did leave them lying around. A few days later while playing around together she said she wanted to take me and she has not looked back since - in fact she loves taking me all the time. I asked her why and she gave 2 reasons
1. the mindblowing experience of role reversal, her having the dominant role and penetrating another - it is something totally unexpected and rewarding.
2. watching and feeling how I react to her thrusts, listening to my moans etc - she could see from my reactions how much I enjoyed this and this turned her on as well.

So I have a sexually conservative girlfriend who loves to poke me! From her and my perspective, it does not matter who gets penetrated as it is vanilla sex either way. It is just that we share the task of being the penetrator and share the emotional satisfaction of being taken.

This has helped her vocalise her desires better as well when I am on top - we can look each other in the eye and we know what each other is experiencing. I usually dont bother bringing myself to orgasm either during or after being taken, we usually just cuddle and say how much we love each other - thus I have learned how to think of sex as a way to reaffirm our love and not as a way to obtain sexual gratification.

It is a great shame that social conditioning prevents many women from sharing and swaping gender and sex roles with their SO. In all honesty, I am by far, much, much closer and more loving to my current girlfriend than any of my previous girlfriends because I can fully share my whole self and she can explore for herself within the safety of a loving relationship. It has been an eye-opener for both of us but I know I am the lucky one. ;)

[Helana]

Sherri, don't want to hijack your thread but as I typed out my post I remember reading this article which sums up the sharing of the gender/sex role written by a woman who penetrated her boyfriend. It is pretty revealing about the emotions this conjures up - if you are conservative then don't read it!



I felt embarrassed and shy as I velcroed myself in, unsure of how to play the man. We lubed the thing liberally, than Adam got up on his hands and knees. I gingerly poked at him from alpha doggie position; he stopped me and flipped onto his back. He wrapped his legs around my waist, which sent the first shock of non-recognition. What had always felt rather take-charge from below felt completely passive from above, a nervous welcome. The Boss had a weird consistency, so I rolled a condom over it. As Adam reached up to help, as I had so many times, I felt the second shock. As his hands fluttered around this missile in my lap, he was like a child playing at a grown-up task. I marveled at how much the penetrator drives every part of this act, something that had never been apparent to me as penetratee. Adam's eyes widened as I pushed in slowly, a little at a time, stopping to ask "OK?" every minute or so. His breaths were shallow; he urged me on.

As "my" huge appendage disappeared inside him, his eyes showed shame, trust, fear and a sort of helpless adoration. In a way I'd never understood those words before, he was mine. The knowledge I could really hurt this person by being less than careful made me feel responsible, protective. The vulnerability appalled me at the same time; it was vaguely disgusting that he would let someone do this to him. Mixed in with the disgust was possessiveness. The thought of anyone else penetrating him seemed revolting. These observations clicked into place in quick succession; I felt like a projector being loaded with slides of maleness, of male seeing.

I saw all this as if from a distance, perhaps because my nerve endings weren't involved directly in the drama and perhaps because Adam and I weren't in love. Were souls entwined, I imagine, the Boss would dive much deeper into power, identity, empathy. But my experience was weirdly sociological and clarified much that had confused me. I saw why men feel entitled to women as possessions, why women must be protected from other men, especially from sex with them. Why a woman's, not a man's, virginity is "lost" and why her sexual activity inspires disrespect. I also felt the allure of a virgin, of being singled out for that gift.

This view of heterosexual sex looked far less like a mirror than my woman's view. I realized as I ****ed Adam that at some of the most connected-feeling moments of my life, I was having an utterly different experience than the man pushing into me. Regardless of who's initiating, who's on top, or who holds what emotional reins, I realized, surrender is at the center of my sexual experience; invasion at my male partner's.

With the Boss, I was conquering, silent, responsible, the taker. With his legs spread, Adam was agreeable, inviting, ashamed, taken. I felt closer to him that night than any other time, because we changed in front of each other's eyes. Parts of ourselves that had been locked away from it engaged in sex for the first time.

The world looks different since then. I was riding up a steep escalator a few weeks after I took Adam's cherry, idly watching the butts up ahead of me as I usually do -- as a pleasing shape. And suddenly a slide clicked over the round female bottom perched above me: Access. Men aren't just admiring the curve of a butt the way women do; they're negotiating access. It's a hill to be taken.

[Leslie(TV)]

I don't have an SO, nor have I ever had one in the conventional sense of the term. I lost my virginity to a GG I met over the internet that LOOOOOVES CDs/TVs, etc. Problem there is that she was married, and when we met in real life, she met a THIRD party a week before (who also was a CD). We lived several states away mind you also. Long story short, she got divorced, I fell out of love with her, and last I read, she re-married. I'm guessing to that other CD.

The second girl I met on the net didn't know I was a CD. But we only spent a weekend together and that fizzled out.

I am still interested in meeting a fellow CD/TV/TS as I am curious, but I'm holding out for the right one.

At my age and after my life-time of experiences (don't ask) I have no interest in having a steady relationship nor do i ever wish to marry. So dressing is no problem for me.

[TrueGemini'sWife GG]

First...
Gem, don't kill me baby!!
:p
LOL...

I have read these posts, super job Sherri!

I am not quite sure where I fit in, but here I go...



Until Gem, I had never had an intimate relationship with a CD'er before, but if you had read some of my previous posts, you know I not only am accepting of Gem's CDing, I also encourage it. I have also never been attracted to another female, so I wouldn't consider myself bisexual. What I do know is that I love when Gem dresses and it is such a turn on for me. We have lots of "vanilla" sex and that is really great too, but when Gem dresses, it is just, well, different. I find Gem very sexy in femme clothes and without saying a word, it's like playtime for us! Sex is completely different when Gem is in femme mode. I don't do it just for him, though when in femme mode he likes to play the part. I like being able to help that side come out whenever Gem wants it to. I don't do it just for myself, because in all truth, I love to make Gem happy.

So I guess the bottom line is, I love every aspect of Gem. Both the male and female side and I think that is what the motivation is when it comes to our sex life and life together in general. I have never felt jealous or insecure. I have never felt that just "Me" was never enough, I have never had the urge to cheat or seek anything from another, because Gem is the best of all worlds for me. The femme side gives my heart and soul all the love, tenderness, gentleness and nurturing I could ever need. The male side gives me the security and comfort my mind needs when it comes to that "being taking care of" thing woman have, at least this woman has. It is that hunter and gatherer thing I guess. (I find that side really sexy too...LOL!)

Gem has this prefect balance when it comes to my needs and I think, I hope, I give him the same thing. At least he tells me I do.

So I suppose with that being our foundation, the rest of our relationship benefits from that and just kind of follows suit, which includes our sex life. I guess my adventurous side plays some role in it too.

LOL!

I guess to wrap this up I will say again, as I have said so many times...
I am sooo lucky to be a wife of a CD'er and I wouldn't change a single thing about my Gem, even if I could..

PS..
Gem, I was a good girl! I didn't give too much info, right Honey?
LOL!!!
I love you baby!

[ChristineRenee]

Very sweet post Pattie......ain't love grand?;)


Love,
Chrissie Bear:)

[sherri]

I'm a highly monogomus hetro male.
This is so key, isn't it? How we can expect any degree of acceptance if non-consentual promiscuity is a factor. I know we tend to be rather high-minded about this here in the forum, assuming we're all above that, but in my experience the reality is that a great many CDers are perfectly willing to cheat on their spouses. Very disconcerting.


Most of it, unfortunately, caused by a society that has conditioned us to react in a negative manner to anything considered "deviant."

On thought #2- Frankly, I see nothing wrong or boring with vanilla.
Nor do I. Hope I didn't imply that. It's just that the moment you bring your own femninity (or some other flavor of kink) into the bedroom, many women are going to feel that vanilla has been left behind. If that circumstance becomes the predominant norm in the relationship, she is going to experience a rather profound sense of dissatisfaction.


On thought #3- I can understand your point of view but I don't think it's just the kink that plants seeds of doubt in the mind of our GG's.
Of course not! Good point. It's just that I had intentionally narrowed the focus of this thread.


On thought #4- I'm just not convienced that kink is necessarily progressive. Perhaps it is more that we are not being honest with ourselves when we embark on a path of what our ultimate goal will be.
See, I think there is abundant evidence to the contrary. Maybe it's not "necessarily" progressive, but it takes a pretty strong individual to keep it in check. Take the matter of pornography, for example — I don't think there's much question that it harbors the potential to be addictive, and that it can corrupt our sensibilities to the point of degrading conventional sexual appetites and relationships. (By the way, as an aside, I have picked up on numerous indicators that suggest that our younger generations, male and female, are more candidly imbibing in pornography, and I can't help but wonder what impact this will have on normative values.)

Now you may not be prone to addiction to pornography, just as I am not prone to alcoholism, whereas the next person might be. It seems to me, however, that the majority of CDers arrive at a mental/emotional/psychological point of "no turning back", which is interesting because for every CDer who was "born to be feminine", my observation is that several others come to it as a fetish — in other words, just another form of kink — but either way, the net result is progressive ... very progressive. In the case of the authentically predisposed TG, this progression may well be a natural and inevitable flowering, whereas the fetishist's actions might at best be thought of as a sort of self-reconditioning and at worst as obsession/compulsion.

The significance of all this in this thread is the rather inevitable desire to bring our feminine personalities and physical manifestations into the bedroom, what that means to our GGs and how best to make such an arrangement satisfactory for both. Personally, I have zero experience with this, yet it is an aspiration of mine, so one selfish motive of this thread is to learn other ladies' experiences.


On thought #5- Again I don't believe this phenomenum to be particular to the CD community.
Heavens no. But I tell ya, a lot of posts give an impression of self-absorption, and that strikes me as a recipe for a frustrated, dissatisfied mate. If the statisticians are correct and more women are cheating and divorcing, the added stress of crossdressing can be risky.

[Holly]

This is so key, isn't it? How we can expect any degree of acceptance if non-consentual promiscuity is a factor. I know we tend to be rather high-minded about this here in the forum, assuming we're all above that, but in my experience the reality is that a great many CDers are perfectly willing to cheat on their spouses. Very disconcerting.Very discouraging, indeed, if true... and it may very well be. I freely confess that my face-to-face experience with other CDers is limited (although not non-existant). I can't say with any certainty that we, as CDers are any more promiscuous than non-CDers. It's sad that promiscuity runs rampant in our general population. What ever happened to commitment?




Nor do I. Hope I didn't imply that. It's just that the moment you bring your own femninity (or some other flavor of kink) into the bedroom, many women are going to feel that vanilla has been left behind. If that circumstance becomes the predominant norm in the relationship, she is going to experience a rather profound sense of dissatisfaction.Perhaps I should clarify. Holly stays out of the bedroom. That is my wife's wish and I absolutely respect it. I would be willing to do otherwise but ONLY at her request. I will never try to initiate that. I love her too much.



See, I think there is abundant evidence to the contrary. Maybe it's not "necessarily" progressive, but it takes a pretty strong individual to keep it in check. Take the matter of pornography, for example — I don't think there's much question that it harbors the potential to be addictive, and that it can corrupt our sensibilities to the point of degrading conventional sexual appetites and relationships. (By the way, as an aside, I have picked up on numerous indicators that suggest that our younger generations, male and female, are more candidly imbibing in pornography, and I can't help but wonder what impact this will have on normative values.)

Now you may not be prone to addiction to pornography, just as I am not prone to alcoholism, whereas the next person might be. It seems to me, however, that the majority of CDers arrive at a mental/emotional/psychological point of "no turning back", which is interesting because for every CDer who was "born to be feminine", my observation is that several others come to it as a fetish — in other words, just another form of kink — but either way, the net result is progressive ... very progressive. In the case of the authentically predisposed TG, this progression may well be a natural and inevitable flowering, whereas the fetishist's actions might at best be thought of as a sort of self-reconditioning and at worst as obsession/compulsion.I'm not sure I understand the corolation between "kink" and addictive behaviours. Few, if any would disagree that addictive behaviours, wheather they be due to alcohol, drugs, pornography, gambling, shopping (okay, maybe not shopping:) ) are detrimental to the individual and to society. It's the "kink" in the world that gives us the variety and the ability to see and understand differing points of view. How boring it would be if we all just marched along in lock step with each other. (Unfortunately, I totally agree with your observation that the younger generation ia getting more and more caught up in the addiction of pornography... just more evidence that people are more willing and predisposed today to put themselves and their own satisfaction ahead of everyone and everything else:( ). Maybe we're stuck on some word definations here, but I suspect that we are thinking along simular lines here. Your comment about the CDers who are "born to be feminine" really struck a cord with me. Being feminine and being female are two very different things. Those who are women, trapped in a man's body, my heart goes out to them. But that's not me. The femininity that Holly brings to my life I do cherish. She's the loving, soft, vunerable, caring, unselfish, nurturing person that I normally am not. I know that I canot speak for all CDers but I am unabashadly unashamed of the femininity in my life. Thanks, Sherri for helping me focus in on that a little clearer.


The significance of all this in this thread is the rather inevitable desire to bring our feminine personalities and physical manifestations into the bedroom, what that means to our GGs and how best to make such an arrangement satisfactory for both. Personally, I have zero experience with this, yet it is an aspiration of mine, so one selfish motive of this thread is to learn other ladies' experiences.Here, Sherri, I have to disagree a little. Yes, I do have that feminine personality thing going and I actually make a consious effort to exert it's effects in everything I do, including what goes on in the bedroom. I believe it encourages me even more to place the needs of my partner above my own. But as I said above, I will not ever force the physical manifestation of Holly in a physical, intimate way upon my wife, so I disagree that it is inevitable. It's really not even a goal. Perhaps if I were younger (I'm an old broad) I may think differently... but I like to think that I wouldn't.



Heavens no. But I tell ya, a lot of posts give an impression of self-absorption, and that strikes me as a recipe for a frustrated, dissatisfied mate. If the statisticians are correct and more women are cheating and divorcing, the added stress of crossdressing can be risky.I agree that any activity engaged by either party which causes the other to feel isolated and unfulfilled raises the odds dramatically for an unsuccessful relationship. I believe this is the main reason the advice given so often here to take things slowly and to constantly reassure our SO's that we love them and need them as much or more when we come out to them is so important. One thing I can say with absolute certainty is that a selfish crossdresser will never have a fulfilling relationship. As far as that goes, any selfish individual will never have a fulfilling relationship.

Wow, I better climb down off this soapbox. Seriously, Sherri, thanks for starting this thread. I may fight it sometimes, but I do need to think these things through.

[sherri]

Holly, I can't thank you enough for your contribution to this thread. I really mean that. You've made me think, and learn some things. We may have stumbled over semantics a little bit, but I think I know what you mean and I hope I wasn't too difficult to understand. Good stuff.

(BTW, you probably aren't overly concerned with addictive behavior — I know I'm not overly so — but if you are interested I can point you to some interesting stuff about sexual aberration and addiction.)


Perhaps I should clarify. Holly stays out of the bedroom. That is my wife's wish and I absolutely respect it. I would be willing to do otherwise but ONLY at her request. I will never try to initiate that. I love her too much.

Here, Sherri, I have to disagree a little ...I will not ever force the physical manifestation of Holly in a physical, intimate way upon my wife, so I disagree that it is inevitable. Actually, I don't think you're disagreeing with me as much as you might think. The fact that you are a gracious enough person to respect your wife's wishes doesn't alter the fact that your feminization has led to at least a trace of desire to express it sexually. But I fully understand how her discomfort with the practice alters how you feel about doing that. Let me hasten to add that I admire you immensely for being so considerate of your wife's comfort zone.

It's interesting to compare your situation with that of Helana's and Patti's, where both partners of both relationships are not only comfortable with this sort of thing, but are openly enthusiastic about it.

My hunch is that the majority of CDs would love to bring their feminization into the bedroom but do not for the simple reason that their SOs are uncomfortable with the idea.

Speaking for myself, I would love to have the kind of sexual relationship that Helana describes, but I would not enjoy it if my SO merely tolerated my femininity. If she wasn't turned on by it, I wouldn't be either.


Very discouraging, indeed, if true... I can't say with any certainty that we, as CDers are any more promiscuous than non-CDers.
Based on the numerous propositions I've recieved online and a couple of in-person acquaintances I've had, I can tell you unequivocably that it happens with some frequency.

And while I don't know for sure, I wouldn't be surprised if CDers are disproportinately promiscuous. Here's the dynamic (I think): wife doesn't know about the CDing or doesn't play + dressing is sexually stimulating = extramaritally promiscuous.

[Helana]

It seems to me, however, that the majority of CDers arrive at a mental/emotional/psychological point of "no turning back", which is interesting because for every CDer who was "born to be feminine", my observation is that several others come to it as a fetish — in other words, just another form of kink — but either way, the net result is progressive ... very progressive. In the case of the authentically predisposed TG, this progression may well be a natural and inevitable flowering, whereas the fetishist's actions might at best be thought of as a sort of self-reconditioning and at worst as obsession/compulsion.


Very insightful words

True TGs are rare creatures indeed - probably only 1% of the crossdressing community, the rest of us evolve over time from different starting positions and using different routes to where we are now. I totally agree that in most situations the condition is progressive and our SOs are correct to worry where all this will eventually end.

I hold up my hand and say that after several years of self-indulgence and reflection, not only did I come to accept my CDing but I also self-reconditioned my mind to take it even futher than I had previously thought possible. It would be relatively easy for me to progress to full time CDing, and GRS would no doubt follow thereafter. However I control my own destiny and I have made a decision not to follow that path because I am in love with my girlfriend. If we had never met then my life could have been different.

Although my girlfriend would be supportive of me if I went full time as she wants me to be happy, I would also break her heart as she could not live with me in that state. For me it is a no-brainer that I would never do that as I believe I am much happier with her now than I would be if I went full time and our relationship reverted to a close friendship. It is hardly self-sacrifice on my part, love is a more compelling reason than self indulgence. And on many levels CDing is a self indulgent, consuming condition and it can ruin your life if you cannot find a proper balance.

[Sweet Susan]

I'd like to congratulate everybody on a discussion well said. This is truly an issue with almost all of us, and if it isn't, well, I'm surprised. I can't say how many times I've checked into the forum and headed out, as there wasn't that much going on to discuss. I like a heavier steak when I can get it. So when I happened upon this thread, I was really intrigued. It started out well, and it has progressed well. And I've sometimes found that topics can get testy and end up either banned or hurt feelings (whatever that means). That hasn't seem to have happened on this thread.

I would really like to weigh in on this, but I've run out of time. However, I have some thoughts of my own, so I'm going to share a few of them with all of you now, and then I'm going to bed. Perhaps I will feel differently in the morning. I often do.

My wife and I try to stroke each other as often as possible, and she has been great about my yen to crossdress. Personally, I'd like to take it to bed every night, but she just doesn't seem to respond to it the way I seemingly anticipate, so I don't do it very often. Probably much like what Holly said, I love my wife too much, and I respect her, and the last thing I want to do is bring crossdressing between us. But between us it is, and she didn't bring it here. She's often open about kinky play, and I've found her willing to do just about anything. There is virtually nothing I won't try. I wouldn't ask her to do anything that she didn't feel good about.

I have to know that she would prefer to be married to a man with a beard, a hairy chest, hairy legs, hairy armpit, moustachioed, the whole Errol Flynn enchilada. That is what she married, and that is what she has always told me turns her on. Instead, she has me, a man who trys very hard to be a sexy woman. How thrilling can that be? Sometimes I feel like a real jerk, but I just can't and won't help myself. I guess I'm selfish. That must be it. I am selfish. I expect to have what I married, but I'm not totally willing to give her what she married. I may have to re-evaluate. What am I doing...........

One last thing about fantasies and experiments. It often happens that they backfire. An example. I had a friend who lost his wife to another man because he wanted to have a threesome. He wanted two women and himself, but his wife wouldn't do it unless she could do two men, so he agreed. She also made the stipulation that she got to go first, and that she got to pick the second man. Well, she picked somebody he would never have chosen for her, and to make a long story short, she liked the new man's action better than her husband's action, and she left my friend for this other guy. He never got to have his threesome, and his three kids had a new daddy. Fantasies can be dangerous when they are realized.

[Akyra]

did u say sexuul realety chick......

y tats me babeee......

verree sexuul and veree reel.....

don't beweeve me??????

ask twisten an cwispy......

mmmm tat cwispy... yum yumm

oopsie rong thread sqeuze me.......

bak 2 teh personalz.......

[Helana]

Thanks Sharon for such an open and thoughtful reply. It was not my intention to imply that all crossdressers become TG, only that some do, but those who do not still evolve their cding over time and many will at least think about a TG lifestyle.

I also use a liberal definition of TG as I feel we are all part of the TG spectrum. To be honest I would not know where the dividing line is between a TG and a CD, it seems an arbitary division. Still I recognize that I am more TG than the "average" CD although I arrived here through a standard CD path.

Like you I still retain all my masculine likes and thoughts even though I am TG and have even taken hormones, I just incorporate my feminine values into me, so I am still the same person as before.

Understanding myself and being honest with myself and my SO is key to me to having a loving and fulfilling relationship. Understanding what my SO wants sexually is very much part of an honest, open relationship.

[sherri]

This thread is, in my opinion, attracting some very good commentary and I have to say that on balance the overall effect on me is very inspirational. But then what else should I expect from such fine ladies.

I feel a certain stewardship for any serious thread I start, and I could rattle on for days in response to all the stimulating things I'm reading here, but I want to be careful not to impose myself too pervasively in the thread. I hope all the participants have a sense of ownership in such discussions.

Before moving on to other responses, I just want to say to TamarraGG that you are the ideal so many of us seek. It's easy to be quick to say that you are the exception that proves the rule, but that would overlook an important bit of understanding you are in a position to bring to this dialogue. I would love to hear you talk at greater length about the process that has brought you to this point of acceptance and support that you express. I anticipate that you will ascribe most of the motivation to your wonderful relationship, but still, you had to have made some adjustments in your own thinking and emotions and I'd like to hear more about that.

[sherri]

Insight after insight, Helana. Your post needs no embellishment, but is it okay if I highlight a few things? I just can't resist.


Vanilla sex is normally just fine for women as they are still getting their emotional fill but for men we need to explore our sexual fantasies so that we can continue obtaining the maximum sensation ... Each is an escalation and usually it is the man who is pushing this. I wonder how often the women just goes along because she knows that she must in order to keep her man satisfied. I'm sure some people will disagree with me on this, which is great cuz it's certainly not univerally true, but I have this theory that oftentimes a man will introduce kink into the relationship as a way of combating sexual boredom, which in turn is attributable to an innate craving for multiple partners — Neanderthals that we (still) are. :p But I also realize that kink can emerge from deep-seated emotional needs and infinitely variable sexual predispositions.

Whatever the motive, on the one hand the kink is fine because at least it (hopefully) circumvents infidelity or, in varying degrees, the dwindling of sexual interest in a longterm relationship that might otherwise be rather inevitable if the two aren't imaginative enough to devise a solution. And let's face it, both the former and the latter happen a lot more frequently than people might like to admit.

On the other hand, the kink can be ultimately destructive if the instigator becomes, for whatever reason, uninterested in the more conventional needs of his partner or, as you say, falls into a pattern of escalation that eventually outpaces his partner's willingness to comply. (I still maintain that kink can be addictive and progressive and, worse, it can eventually displace the ability to be stimulated by conventional sexuality.)

A case in point is swinging. Swingers give a lot of lip service to mutual interest/consent, but it's not at all uncommon for the wife to admit that she is playing along to please her husband. Perhaps more significant is the fact that the wife can at any time cease swinging to return to monogamy without experiencing any sense of loss (in fact she may be relieved), whereas the husband may have a difficult time giving up the stimuli or regaining the ability to be stimulated by "straight" sex — a "once the genie is out of the bottle" kind of thing.


However on a trip overseas I bought some strap-on dildos and then showed them to her upon my return. I'm sorry, I got fixated for a moment with the mental image of you moving through airport security with strap-ons in your bag! And through customs — "Do you have anything to declare, sir?" :p


I asked her why and she gave 2 reasons
1. the mindblowing experience of role reversal, her having the dominant role and penetrating another - it is something totally unexpected and rewarding.
2. watching and feeling how I react to her thrusts, listening to my moans etc - she could see from my reactions how much I enjoyed this and this turned her on as well. You guys are really onto something here, something that spans a variety of possible variations. There isn't one of us, male or female, that doesn't have some "quirk" embedded in our psyche that can find expression in sex. We all owe it to ourselves and our partners to be open to the possibility of finding extraordinary satisfaction in catering to these unique twists. Between two loving partners, what do we have to lose? What indeed — well, boredom and frustration come to mind. Who wouldn't like to toss those into the garbage bin?


It is a great shame that social conditioning prevents many women from sharing and swaping gender and sex roles with their SO I'm not sure where natural appetite leaves off and conditioning kicks in, but I know what you mean.


I am by far, much, much closer and more loving to my current girlfriend ... I can fully share my whole self and she can explore for herself within the safety of a loving relationship. I think that if the majority of us have any hope of arriving at some form of mutually satisfying arrangement with our women regarding CDing and sex, we have to find a way to "sell" the benefits to our mates, and to be open to the possibility of evolving as lovers ourselves.


BTW, thanks hugely for that article in post #21. I found it absolutely riveting. (Should I also mention that it was a major turn-on?) You know, I think that in my lifetime we have seen a phenomenal degree of gender role redefinition in society, driven in large part by the feminist movement. Certainly the impetus for that movement has been to stake a claim to equitable treatment that is about women and for women, but some redefinition of male roles go hand-in-glove with all that. Some feel that redefinition entails no small degree of emasculation, or at least some "de-testosteroning" (forgive my abuse of the King's English) for men. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not all good either.

We should have never given them the vote. Just kidding!!! :p

So if men are going to play along with this — and by now do they really have a choice? — isn't it fair in turn to press for acceptance by the subset of men who might wish to take gender blurring even further than the women or society have anticipated or asked for? And if that acceptance includes the stretching of some sexual boundaries, can these women ethically object? Besides, they just might be surprised by what they discover about themselves and, wonder of wonders, about the opposite sex. After all, I bet every crossdresser in this forum realizes that he understands women better because of his feminization.

That said, it should be noted that the gender swapping as described in your article is artificial. It's genitally undeniable, right? So, we can't really ignore the fact that it can never be more than a variation on a theme, not the root theme itself.

[Helana]

I'm sure some people will disagree with me on this, which is great cuz it's certainly not univerally true, but I have this theory that oftentimes a man will introduce kink into the relationship as a way of combating sexual boredom, which in turn is attributable to an innate craving for multiple partners — Neanderthals that we (still) are. :p But I also realize that kink can emerge from deep-seated emotional needs and infinitely variable sexual predispositions.

Sounds like a sound theory to me especially as I look like a Neanderthal :)



I'm sorry, I got fixated for a moment with the mental image of you moving through airport security with strap-ons in your bag! And through customs — "Do you have anything to declare, sir?"
I must admit a few beads of perspiration appeared on my forehead as my luggage was x-rayed, but not even a smile appeared on the operator's lips. Thinking logically, they must see dildos all the time and they will be trained not to react to embarrass the passenger, so it is really just my CDC paranoia playing up again.



You guys are really onto something here, something that spans a variety of possible variations. There isn't one of us, male or female, that doesn't have some "quirk" embedded in our psyche that can find expression in sex. We all owe it to ourselves and our partners to be open to the possibility of finding extraordinary satisfaction in catering to these unique twists. Between two loving partners, what do we have to lose? What indeed — well, boredom and frustration come to mind. Who wouldn't like to toss those into the garbage bin?
Yes the great thing here was how she discovered for herself that she enjoyed it as well , something which was unexpected.



I think that if the majority of us have any hope of arriving at some form of mutually satisfying arrangement with our women regarding CDing and sex, we have to find a way to "sell" the benefits to our mates, and to be open to the possibility of evolving as lovers ourselves. It does amuse me that CDers would want their SOs to adapt to them but what do they do to adjust to their partner's needs. This has to be a very open, honest two-way process.





So if men are going to play along with this — and by now do they really have a choice? — isn't it fair in turn to press for acceptance by the subset of men who might wish to take gender blurring even further than the women or society have anticipated or asked for? And if that acceptance includes the stretching of some sexual boundaries, can these women ethically object? Besides, they just might be surprised by what they discover about themselves and, wonder of wonders, about the opposite sex. After all, I bet every crossdresser in this forum realizes that he understands women better because of his feminization. Women cannot ethically object but we don't live in an ethical world. Lets not forget that although women have made major strides, they are still disadvantaged in society all things considered so asking them to accept a new subset of men as potential partners which in their eyes may represent a weaker man - ie one who is not dominant, competitive and will bring in the money, is still asking for alot. Turning over thousands of years of prejudice takes a long time and a lot of effort - the effort should be shouldered by CDers not by other members of society. It is up to us to convince them that we make superior partners.


That said, it should be noted that the gender swapping as described in your article is artificial. It's genitally undeniable, right? So, we can't really ignore the fact that it can never be more than a variation on a theme, not the root theme itself. Agreed, at the end of the day men are men, women are women. Blurring the gender and sex lines so that they more accurately reflect people's personalities is wonderful but most people are still essentially of one gender and sexuality and find comfort and stability in conventional roles. Our goal is to make them understand that diversity is not threatening and should be welcomed as it brings more depth and wisdom to society and everybody benefits.

[sherri]

Women cannot ethically object but we don't live in an ethical world. Lets not forget that although women have made major strides, they are still disadvantaged in society all things considered so asking them to accept a new subset of men as potential partners which in their eyes may represent a weaker man - ie one who is not dominant, competitive and will bring in the money, is still asking for alot. Turning over thousands of years of prejudice takes a long time and a lot of effort - the effort should be shouldered by CDers not by other members of society. It is up to us to convince them that we make superior partners.

Agreed, at the end of the day men are men, women are women. Blurring the gender and sex lines so that they more accurately reflect people's personalities is wonderful but most people are still essentially of one gender and sexuality and find comfort and stability in conventional roles. Our goal is to make them understand that diversity is not threatening and should be welcomed as it brings more depth and wisdom to society and everybody benefits. I dunno, I think in many regards women are at or nearing parity, and in some respects have gained the upper hand in American society. And entwined in that parity is a certain amount of duplicity in expectations, a cake-and-eat-it-too thing — don't be so male for this, be a man for that. It's almost as if women are defining men's roles more than men are. Some of the fallout is good, some not so good. I think a degree of gender confusion is unavoidable.

I watch for indicators. Not long ago I was clicking to a movie channel and paused, astonished, at the sight of an absolute hunk of a male wrestler making his way into the ring with great fanfare — wearing a skirt! Topless, muscles rippling, and a knee-length skirt with a little slit up one side. Prime time WWF. I kid you not.

Last night I stumbled upon two guys talking about male fashion on TV. The "expert" was a gorgeous gay guy — beautiful blond mane of hair, a baby blue crew neck cable sweater, blatantly swishy speech and gestures, talking about color being the next big thing in men's fashion. As if to prove his point, the host was wearing a solid pink shirt, and they were saying pink is the next black. The last time my step-son was home from college, he was wearing a pink shirt from Banana Republic.

There are also gay sitcoms running prime time. It would be difficult to convince me that at least a portion of the growing gay population isn't a reaction to the feminist movement.

"Metrosexuals" has been one of the buzz words of the turn of the century, straight males who are paying more and more attention to skin care, fashion, home decorating, the arts, etc.

Not long ago I saw a big photo feature in an edgy, arty cosmopolitan magazine exploring an interesting version of crossdressing (it was actually the cover story). Using those thin, melodramatic, waifish models the fashion industry loves so much, the photos featured androgynous males and females in various stages of undress, and all the boys were wearing high heels. In some photos that was all they were wearing; in others, they were wearing men's briefs, or panties, or a bit of lingerie as they posed with nubile females flashing their tits.

Sometimes you get what you ask for, but it's not what you expected. Unless there is a big backlash, I think women are going to have to come to terms with progressive femininity within the ranks of their male counterparts. Get ready, get ready, 'cause here I come.

[sherri]

I read your post with great interest, Susan. In fact, I think it's one of the best ones I've read on any subject in this forum.


I can't say how many times I've checked into the forum and headed out, as there wasn't that much going on to discuss. These contributors have been great, haven't they? I don't think the heavier threads will ever be as popular as the lighter fare in this forum. That's not a judgement, just an observation. I think those of us of a more serious bent start out reading all the threads, then taper off as we figure out what interests us.


My wife and I try to stroke each other as often as possible, and she has been great about my yen to crossdress. Personally, I'd like to take it to bed every night, but she just doesn't seem to respond to it the way I seemingly anticipate, so I don't do it very often. Probably much like what Holly said, I love my wife too much, and I respect her, and the last thing I want to do is bring crossdressing between us. But between us it is, and she didn't bring it here. She's often open about kinky play, and I've found her willing to do just about anything. There is virtually nothing I won't try. I wouldn't ask her to do anything that she didn't feel good about.

I have to know that she would prefer to be married to a man with a beard, a hairy chest, hairy legs, hairy armpit, moustachioed, the whole Errol Flynn enchilada. That is what she married, and that is what she has always told me turns her on. Instead, she has me, a man who trys very hard to be a sexy woman. How thrilling can that be? Sometimes I feel like a real jerk, but I just can't and won't help myself. I guess I'm selfish. That must be it. I am selfish. I expect to have what I married, but I'm not totally willing to give her what she married. I may have to re-evaluate. What am I doing........... What I love about your comments here is that I can tell you're not trying to over-dramatize the problem, yet you are describing a conflict in which so much hangs in a very delicate balance. I think few of us would disagree that it is difficult for a marriage to remain healthy without rapport in the bedroom.

In a very real sense, a crossdresser who insinuates his penchant into the relationship after the fact, as it were, is violating a good faith principle. It is easy to dismiss your wife's preference as social conditioning, but I think that's hogwash, self-serving rationalization. Her preference for a masculine partner is as natural as the sun coming up each morning, and she gets a lot of credit for not blowing up over your feminizing. Of course I think it says a lot about you, too, that y'all are able to maintain some degree of equilibrium. Your wife probably wouldn't be as accepting as she is if you weren't a good husband.

As much as I admire your honesty, I can't say I disagree with your assessment of your own selfishness and double standard in this matter. As I have often said, all we have to do to see our CDing for what it is is to turn the tables and imagine what our response would be.

But as you said, there the issue is between the two of you, so what to do? I think a large of part of "selling" your feminine self in the bedroom lies in successfully conveying the benefits of your femininity to your overall personality and to your relationship with your wife. This is a huge point that has been made in numerous threads in this forum. This has to translate into tangible benefits for your wife.

Another key is giving your wife a steady diet of the kind of sex she naturally desires, and it sounds to me like you're doing that. I am at a loss, however, to imagine how you can give her the hairy guy she likes and still maintain the smoothly shaved feminine you.

I also think Helana has raised some very interesting possiblities regarding role reversal, unexpected pleasures and what we stand to learn about each other by embracing our partners' desires. That seems like a viable goal and benefit to me.


One last thing about fantasies and experiments. It often happens that they backfire ... Fantasies can be dangerous when they are realized. I have a hunch that swinging in some form is something you two have contemplated. It can be managed successfully, and have a positive effect on your sex life with your mate, but it requires a rock-solid marriage, a lot of communication and faithful adherence to mutually defined boundaries. My personal opinion is that the threesome thing harbors a greater potential for problems than couples or groups. Swinging involves a lot of work — chemistry is a big issue, at least in the two-couples scenario. Just think about the difficulty of finding a compatible partner and multiply that times four. A good way to test the swinging waters without getting in over your head is to attend a swingers dance club for an evening of sexy dress, lots of flirting and meeting others.

If there's any doubt whether it's right for either of you, don't do it. I have to say that if I knew I was frustrating my wife with my feminization, I would be very hesitant to expose her to other guys. She just might find that enchilada she craves. I suppose it could be a way of giving her Erroll Flynn in exchange for embracing your femininity in the bedroom but, man, that seems like thin ice to me.

[Fallen Angel]

my opinion is this and its very short. as the sex aspect of this new relation ships we try to find common ground we want to show our love and compation for each other as time goes on i think the need of intamintcy is second companion ship comes first. than it happens we find our selfs lost and looking for a way to rekindle flame and to ad some spice it can be any thing from a sexy nightie to whip cream and yes cding. i have had more than one experiance with GGs and yes to them its kinky and exiting but i think its more of being curiuos. in my opinion i think we are trying to find our own selfs and some one that will love us for what we are. to share,to be a companion a freind and a lover be it a female,male,bi, cd and i hope that for all of us that are still looking we may find this

[carolynhcd]

Sherri, and every girl who has responded to this thread, a doff of the pillbox hat is due to you. This is perhaps the most cogent and necessary thread yet to appear amidst a clutter of idle girltalk under the driers. I shall quote Socrates, "Know thyself." Next, Polonius, "To thine own self be true, and it shall follow as the night the day thou cans't not be false to any man.' Or thereabouts. All problems with our SO's are predicated upon this. If you know who and what you are, what you want and what must be, then you do not find yourself in a situation where sacrifice need be made by either party.This of course takes no account of the fact that people "change" over time. I use the quotes advisedly, for I believe that no one really changes, but in fact merely revert to the person they always were prior to some puerile rebellion. Their conviction can be compelling and credible, however, and there is no shame in being credulous to loud protestations, saving the Bard's timely warning, "Methinks she protests too much." Many, if not all, of us are as guilty as Peter in the garden of Gethsemane in denying that which we knew to be true, not once, but many times, until time and tide forced our hand or we simply succumbed to the inevitability of our pyschosexual imperative. For my part, the **** crew more than thrice ere I was willing to be openhanded and fair in my presentation to others. We have all faced death, divorce, estrangement, revulsion and rejection for our true natures, and yet I will declare most emphatically that we are truest to our natures in being polymorphously perverse. I assure you all I have as many gripes with Freud as the next girl, but I have found this semantic formulation to be among the best I have found for describing the ideal entente cordiale with our corporeal being. I do truly believe the Alchemical formulation and the Sufic averrance that man is infinitely perfectible and the path lays in the mystical marriage of the male with the female. Can what we do be said to be anything other, however lowly the steps we have taken? This is true religion to me, the word coming from the latin, "re" and "ligare," meaning to be bound back to your source. We were bisexual in the womb and we must find that garden of eden ere we depart this vale of tears or else we have learned nothing, done nothing, fought for no cause, made no difference, tilted at neither giant nor windmill. We fight the good fight, the true fight, the fight for our most inalienable rights, our rights to be sexual beings defined by our deepest ruminations, our strongest dreams, our most authentic feelings, our most undeniable responses against every force in this world that seeks to constrain us, to minimize us, to marginalize us. It is one thing to have politicos and preachers rail against us and quite another to have those we hold most dear shrink back in horror and dismay from everthing we know to be right and true and even brave about ourselves. When Hamlet in his "To be or not to be" speech asks, "Who would fardels bear?", the question resonates for all of us. Our lives are immensely complicated by our need to be authentic. It is so much easier to buy fishing lures than the perfect underwire bra (BTW, I suggest Barely There, style 4320 soft cup with double spaghetti straps). Who would choose to do so, given the complications? Twenty minutes at Autozone is nothing compared to two hours on Amazon looking for the perfect pair of over-the-knee skin tight stiletto heel boots WITHOUT platform soles.We invade no foreign strand, make no war, pick no quarrels and dance around our SO's as if they were landmines, hide from our children, our co-workers and our friends for fear that we might be misjudged. Have we not misjudged ourselves? We are in fact the vanguard, the brave new world and we fear so much, with so much to lose. I wish I could say what needs to be said, to inspire, to encourage, to confirn this bright path we are on that has had so many dark passages for all of us. But I tell you all this, we are right and brave and true to our natures, more than any lunkhead at a hockey game or a tractor pull. We are doing the slow ungainly work of unification of the male with the female, with all its attendant illusory sidesteps and missteps. Each of us is blessed with a motivation that other's lack or dare not concede, to do what the next step in our evolution demands: to make that mystical marriage of the male and the female within us as individuals, as part of our individuation (not a made up word, see Carl Jung). Should my mind clear to the point of actually making one, I will revisit this thread. I reckon my efforts at pontification (q.v.) to have fallen sadly short herewith. Helana, your words of love for your GF have inspired me. Thus, my tuppence.

[Katiegirl]

Thank you for this very interesting thread sherribicd

Not having any partner I can only go by the reaction of Ex wife of over 20years ago on finding out that I was a cd.

Her reaction was one of total disgust and any sexual contact ceased, however shortly afterwards my first daughter became termally ill and we both concentrated on trying to save her, which was not successful.

After the death of our daughter we decided to have another baby and sexual contact was restored and within 2 years we had our 4th child another girl. Life went on until she found a pair of tights I had hidden then all hell broke loose and from then we no more sex and we divorced a couple of years later because she wanted a man as well as being felt disgusted by me. she was concerned also the effect of my cding could have on our 3 surviving kids.

Interestingly she took a evening job at a hotel so I could look after the kids and as I learned later made sure she did not go without sex

I never did get the chance to spice up our love life , but the effect on my sex drive of the last year of that marriage has had a lasting effect on me and sex now plays very little part of my life.

I did have another relationship but that was a disaster and broke up for other reasons that cding.

Although I have many friends who are women and prefer their company to men. I don't want a long term relationship with a woman as I fear my crosssdressing which I do daily now would cause serious problems.

I prefer my female side and would like to live as a woman full time , but I also can revert to my male roll easierly when it is required. I would class myself as transgender that has progressed erraticly from cding.

[Holly]

I have been following this thread with great interest. I've noticed a couple of common thoughts and would be interested in your thoughts as well.

Intimacy in the bedroom is an undeniable ingrediant in a long term, loving relationship between any couple. The reoccuring theme I have noticed is that the most successful relationships seem to be those in which both partners are sensitive and responsive to the needs of the other. This could hardly be surprising to anyone. Who among us would not return time and time again to that place where our physical and emotional needs are being met? It's also apparent, at least to me, that the responsibility for establishing and maintaining this type of relationship is a shared responsibility. However, trying to maintain the perspective of crossdressing, I do believe we have a duty to clearly communicate with our partners what it is that we want and to be prepared to accept some compromise, at least for a season, while the various emotional and psychological obstacles are resolved. Some may never be. We need to be prepared to accept that or move on.
The power of love is stronger than the urge for crossdressed itimacy. Several responders (myself included) indicated they would leave the femme personna at the bedroom door. I won't attempt to speak for the others, but for myself, this is a no brainer. My partner takes preceedence. My partner's wellbeing is more important than my own. The funny thing is, the more I take care of her, the more she takes care of me. I believe this is a sign of a healthy relationship. And one in which both partners are fully and totally committed to each other. An interesting question arises here, however. Some have said that CDing could be considered "risky behavior." Would other risky behaviors (swinging, ie) survive in this atmosphere? Even more to the point, do they have a place in this type of relationship?
Unconditional love loves unconditionally. This is where the stress comes in, in my opinion. We, as CDers, introduce the stress of bringing a dynamic into the relationship that in most cases was unsolicited and in many cases unwanted. In those instances there seems to be a "learning curve" involved and those who love us may stumble a bit. And who can blame them. Their world is turned upside down. It is during this time that we must exercise extreme patience, offer ongoing reassurance, and unconditional love as they sort through feelings and emotions.

[TrueGemini]

Very interesting thread, and with a wealth of comments and insights that I can definitely relate to. In short, I have been glad to see that the majority of us take the feelings and thoughts of our SO's into consideration when we bring ourself, or other self into the bedroom. I am so lucky that Pattie has been so accepting and encouraging in every way, bedroom behavior included, that for us, the problems many of the others in this forum have to deal with are not an issue. "Vanilla sex" is something that we enjoy, and don't think is "vanilla" at all, but as Pattie had let on in an earlier post, when I dress in my negligee and panty hose, I tend to take on the female persona in the bedroom too. Again, I am so lucky that Pattie is so encouraging in this respect as well. She lets me be who I am at the particular moment, and treats me as such.

I think this aspect comes with the territory. As a female in appearance, the mind goes into the female sexual mode as well. I have normal male urges as a man, but when dressed, it does not match the way of I am thinking and feeling. I am a woman when dressed, and this odd appendage sometimes is incongruent with what I am feeling or wanting. Again, I am so lucky to have Pattie there, who is more than willing to indulge me this fantasy. I am not TG, and don't think I will ever be one, and believe me, this is no slight to those who are. I am able to relate to that dilemma to be sure, because I can project what could happen if I were to give myself fully to the other Gemini side of my persona. This is the problem and choice we all face- how far to go? I found myself trimming the hair on my legs the other day, just another "baby step" that Pattie is so fond of seeing me take, and at the same time, also found it sexually stimulating to have much less hair under the panty hose. Is it stimulating because it looks and feels feminine, or is it stimulating to be a woman?

Thank you to all who have given me so much food for thought, and I especially enjoyed the female perspective of a woman taking a CD for the first time. I can relate to this story, and remember the way I felt the first time. Struck a cord to be sure. A baby step in Pattie's eyes, perhaps, but a giant leap for me. It has taken me a long time to accept this part of me, and the urges that I have, and it is certainly wrapped up in the CD part of me. A great thread.

[TrueGemini'sWife GG]

Very interesting thread, and with a wealth of comments and insights that I can definitely relate to. In short, I have been glad to see that the majority of us take the feelings and thoughts of our SO's into consideration when we bring ourself, or other self into the bedroom. I am so lucky that Pattie has been so accepting and encouraging in every way, bedroom behavior included, that for us, the problems many of the others in this forum have to deal with are not an issue. "Vanilla sex" is something that we enjoy, and don't think is "vanilla" at all, but as Pattie had let on in an earlier post, when I dress in my negligee and panty hose, I tend to take on the female persona in the bedroom too. Again, I am so lucky that Pattie is so encouraging in this respect as well. She lets me be who I am at the particular moment, and treats me as such.

I think this aspect comes with the territory. As a female in appearance, the mind goes into the female sexual mode as well. I have normal male urges as a man, but when dressed, it does not match the way of I am thinking and feeling. I am a woman when dressed, and this odd appendage sometimes is incongruent with what I am feeling or wanting. Again, I am so lucky to have Pattie there, who is more than willing to indulge me this fantasy. I am not TG, and don't think I will ever be one, and believe me, this is no slight to those who are. I am able to relate to that dilemma to be sure, because I can project what could happen if I were to give myself fully to the other Gemini side of my persona. This is the problem and choice we all face- how far to go? I found myself trimming the hair on my legs the other day, just another "baby step" that Pattie is so fond of seeing me take, and at the same time, also found it sexually stimulating to have much less hair under the panty hose. Is it stimulating because it looks and feels feminine, or is it stimulating to be a woman?

Thank you to all who have given me so much food for thought, and I especially enjoyed the female perspective of a woman taking a CD for the first time. I can relate to this story, and remember the way I felt the first time. Struck a cord to be sure. A baby step in Pattie's eyes, perhaps, but a giant leap for me. It has taken me a long time to accept this part of me, and the urges that I have, and it is certainly wrapped up in the CD part of me. A great thread.

Congratulations Baby!

Another baby step for me, (Your posting.)
A giant step for Gemkind!



If they be baby steps or leaps and bounds..
Just keep taking them baby. I will always be right here, by your side.

Again, you make me so proud to be your wife.
I love you with all my heart.

[Helana]

I dunno, I think in many regards women are at or nearing parity, and in some respects have gained the upper hand in American society. And entwined in that parity is a certain amount of duplicity in expectations, a cake-and-eat-it-too thing — don't be so male for this, be a man for that. It's almost as if women are defining men's roles more than men are. Some of the fallout is good, some not so good. I think a degree of gender confusion is unavoidable. Women are closer to parity in Western countries but they still lack many fundamental rights that men enjoy - but as far as determining the gender roles of men, you are corrrect women are more in control of that than men are!


I watch for indicators. Not long ago I was clicking to a movie channel and paused, astonished, at the sight of an absolute hunk of a male wrestler making his way into the ring with great fanfare — wearing a skirt! Topless, muscles rippling, and a knee-length skirt with a little slit up one side. Prime time WWF. I kid you not. Just pure entertainment - lets all laugh at the muscle man forced to wear a skirt for humiliation - nothing to do with progressive values!


Last night I stumbled upon two guys talking about male fashion on TV. The "expert" was a gorgeous gay guy — beautiful blond mane of hair, a baby blue crew neck cable sweater, blatantly swishy speech and gestures, talking about color being the next big thing in men's fashion. As if to prove his point, the host was wearing a solid pink shirt, and they were saying pink is the next black. The last time my step-son was home from college, he was wearing a pink shirt from Banana Republic.
Funnily enough I own pink shirts. The reason is 12 years ago I worked in an office which had a director who had everything - the great body, great looks, lots of money, charming personality....and he liked to wear pink shirts which looked great on him. I was intrigued to listen to the office girls declare he looked sexy wearing pink. This is not something I would ever have considered myself, after all to protect my CD paranoia I had to avoid anything which smelled of gayness or sissyness. But having listened to the girls I bought a pink shirts for myself and then got lots of great comments from the girls, even my mother thinks I look handsome in pink! Just goes to show that it is men who are concerned about anything homophobic - the girls just see a guy wearing a pink shirt.

Last week the 21 year old son of one of my directors came visiting. He wore a pink shirt to our meeting, then later that evening when we hit the bars he had a pink T-shirt, then the following day he went shopping and bought, you guessed it, another pink shirt. And this guy is a bomb with the girls.


"Metrosexuals" has been one of the buzz words of the turn of the century, straight males who are paying more and more attention to skin care, fashion, home decorating, the arts, etc. I think this is mostly a fad that will disappear when there is a backlash and the macho men look in black suits returns with avengence. What happened to the flower power hippy look where men grew long hair, wore flowery smocks and preached love. That movement did not produce a genderless society, it just evaporated.


Not long ago I saw a big photo feature in an edgy, arty cosmopolitan magazine exploring an interesting version of crossdressing (it was actually the cover story). Using those thin, melodramatic, waifish models the fashion industry loves so much, the photos featured androgynous males and females in various stages of undress, and all the boys were wearing high heels. In some photos that was all they were wearing; in others, they were wearing men's briefs, or panties, or a bit of lingerie as they posed with nubile females flashing their tits. Standard fashion shock treatment for publicity purposes, this has been going on for decades.

Sherri - these items are really just fringe items and are not representative of the men who are walking around your streets. Alas the feminine movement was a bit shortsighted as they only tried to change society's views of women's roles, but did not realise that society should also reappraise men's roles at the same time. So we are still stuck with essentially the same attitudes towards male roles decade after decade with only small advances made in gender progression, mainly due to society's ignorance of the difference between gender and sexual orientation, so we have only benefitted indirectly through the active gay scene.

[Helana]

Although I have many friends who are women and prefer their company to men. I don't want a long term relationship with a woman as I fear my crosssdressing which I do daily now would cause serious problems.

I prefer my female side and would like to live as a woman full time , but I also can revert to my male roll easierly when it is required. I would class myself as transgender that has progressed erraticly from cding.

Katie

It is sad for me to hear that you fear another relationship with a woman. I personally believe that there are many more women out there who can accommodate us strange people than you imagine. I would certainly not give up trying. The love of a good woman is the best thing you can ever have - you just need to be honest and open with her from the outset and one day you will find someone who sees the real you no matter what clothes you wear.

Please do not give up hope.

Hugs
Helana

[Helana]

Unconditional love loves unconditionally. This is where the stress comes in, in my opinion. We, as CDers, introduce the stress of bringing a dynamic into the relationship that in most cases was unsolicited and in many cases unwanted. In those instances there seems to be a "learning curve" involved and those who love us may stumble a bit. And who can blame them. Their world is turned upside down. It is during this time that we must exercise extreme patience, offer ongoing reassurance, and unconditional love as they sort through feelings and emotions.

Very well put Holly. This thread has struck a raw nerve with my girlfriend. She read Sharon's very honest recount of her life with her late wife and she promptly broke into tears. I was up the rest of the night reassuring her and telling her her eyes were not puffy at all!!! Thanks a lot Sharon :mad:

Fortunatley she gives her unconditional love to me and I offer that back to her in return. After a good crying season, our vows of love are renewed, and we end up even closer together. So I guess I should be thanking you instead Sharon ;)

[sherri]

Carolyn, what an artful post, and an equally artful case of advocacy. I read it all with great pleasure, and I look forward to you continuing your train of thought as it comes to bear on the the GG/CD sexual dynamic.

[sherri]

Sherri - these items are really just fringe items and are not representative of the men who are walking around your streets. Alas the feminine movement was a bit shortsighted as they only tried to change society's views of women's roles, but did not realise that society should also reappraise men's roles at the same time. So we are still stuck with essentially the same attitudes towards male roles decade after decade with only small advances made in gender progression, mainly due to society's ignorance of the difference between gender and sexual orientation, so we have only benefitted indirectly through the active gay scene. Helana, I suppose it had to happen sooner or later, but for the first time I find myself disagreeing with you on almost every count. But disagreeing in a genuinely respectful way, cuz I do truly admire you, and I am very grateful for your participation in this thread.

I'm not trying to read too much into these indicators, because at this point in time they are only hints. Certainly I'm not suggesting that overt gender blurring is some tsunami swamping our mainstream society. Nor would I refute the possibility of a trend reversal, which I have seen in my lifetime in unrelated issues. Nevertheless, I find peripheral clues to be very telling.

I know that mainstream American society has adopted changes in male roles that were not even imagined when I was growing up. Far and away, these changes are directly attributable to feminist and gay agendas as translated into political, social and legal activism. The fallout has been enormous. I think one of the most erroneous statements you made is that the feminist movement was restricted to women's issues, because it is apparent to me and a great many social commentators that one of the cornerstones of feminism has been the redefinition of male behavior as it impacts women, and that redefinition has been a part of the feminist syntax since its inception. A certain amount of redefinition of masculinity itself has resulted.

I also see evidence all around me every day of the lasting impact of the sixties on our society. Some of the socio-political ardor and rhetoric may have subsided or been absorbed into more moderate processes, and maybe peace and anti-materialism fell by the wayside, but the far-reaching influence is undeniable nevertheless. Sexual "liberation", vernacular, music, literature, social relevance in movies — I could go on and on — are an obvious legacy; even feminism and the fight for racial equality have traceable roots or associations in the hippie movement. The influence of hippies will live on long after the baby boomer generation has disappeared. Right on.

The metrosexual catch-phrase has proved to be short-lived, it's true, but the phenomenon it references is far from over. Quite the opposite. Again, we may not be talking about mainstream here (yet), but the significance of a subset unabashedly taking an interest in skin care, co-ed aerobics classes, fashion, home decorating or group sensitivity sessions shouldn't be underestimated. Never discount the ripple effect.

The color pink isn't what was significant about that TV interview. I had a pink shirt when I was in junior high, and this weekend I went shopping with my 14-year-old son and we picked out a pink shirt with green stripes for him. That's just cyclical fashion trends. What is significant about that interview was that it involved a straight man and a gay man on prime time TV (!!!) talking about a much larger trend in men's fashion toward the adoption of aspects of style that for a very long time have been the rather exclusive domain of women. Think about that — a very cool gay guy and an equally cool straight guy finding middle ground, in front of an audience. Middle ground ... hmmm.

Femininely expressive men (mannerisms, dress, sensibilities, etc.) may never constitute more than a peripheral subset of the gender, but their ranks are swelling, their influence will spill over, and we will in time see a greater degree of tolerance in society, and I don't see those trends reversing themselves anytime soon. Far out.

[letsdance GG]

I have been reading this thread with interest for a couple of days now.
I was not sure if I would reply at all. All of you have given me a lot to think on.

I am not even sure what I could add that has not been said. I can say that those of you who have taken the time to honestly reply are amazing.

When I first found out that my Honey was a CD'er , my first thought was "If I am attracted to sexy, femine clothes, why wouldn't he?"
Of course I also wondered if I was a lesbian for liking him dressed. I think this is a natural progression in the chain of thought. Some women can't think about that part of themselves. Remeber we were taught that a femine man was somehow less than another. Shows what society knows

I also wondered if the sexual aspect would be uncomfortable. We have both honestly talked about what we are comfortable with and what we are not.
Time and consideration for one another's feelings has been the right combination for us.
If either of us is uncomfortable with the others ideas, we talk about it without fear of being made to feel "abnormal" for thinking about it. If we are all honest, I am sure we will see that all of us have the capacity to think outside of societies definition for "normal"

What matters most to me is maintaining the love and friendship we have.
I would tell a friend if he or she was headed off into something that would harm him/her. I wish for the same from them as well. Who knows us better?

Thank you again for taking the time to express your thoughts and feeling on this. Not to take away form any of you, I am convinced more than ever that I am married to the most wonderful person I have ever had the priviledge to know.

[sherri]

Of course I also wondered if I was a lesbian for liking him dressed ... I also wondered if the sexual aspect would be uncomfortable ... If we are all honest, I am sure we will see that all of us have the capacity to think outside of societies definition for "normal"
I'm so glad you decided to participate in this thread. This discussion is going to be rather incomplete if we don't hear from gender ladies.

I have no desire to invade your privacy, but if you feel comfortable doing so, I would love to hear your thoughts on the notion that a feminized man in the bedroom can't or doesn't satisfy a woman's natural physical attraction to masculinity.

[Helana]

Helana, I suppose it had to happen sooner or later, but for the first time I find myself disagreeing with you on almost every count. But disagreeing in a genuinely respectful way, cuz I do truly admire you, and I am very grateful for your participation in this thread. Well it would be boring if we always agreed. :D Its good to be able to agree to disagree..



I know that mainstream American society has adopted changes in male roles that were not even imagined when I was growing up. Far and away, these changes are directly attributable to feminist and gay agendas as translated into political, social and legal activism. The fallout has been enormous. I think one of the most erroneous statements you made is that the feminist movement was restricted to women's issues, because it is apparent to me and a great many social commentators that one of the cornerstones of feminism has been the redefinition of male behavior as it impacts women, and that redefinition has been a part of the feminist syntax since its inception. A certain amount of redefinition of masculinity itself has resulted. True enough but what I was trying to say was what effect did feminism have on redefining how women consider men. Were women asked to find a new respect for men? Although male behavoir quite rightly was made to change radically, there was no focus on how men regarded each other or how women should regard men. Masculinity has changed somewhat but not that much. The average joe is still largely plays the same role in society and in the family as his counterpart did decades ago. The changes in masculinity are simply a by-product of the feminist/gay revolution. There has never been a masculine revolution where the men get to say how they want to be treated.


I also see evidence all around me every day of the lasting impact of the sixties on our society. Some of the socio-political ardor and rhetoric may have subsided or been absorbed into more moderate processes, and maybe peace and anti-materialism fell by the wayside, but the far-reaching influence is undeniable nevertheless. Sexual "liberation", vernacular, music, literature, social relevance in movies — I could go on and on — are an obvious legacy; even feminism and the fight for racial equality have traceable roots or associations in the hippie movement. The influence of hippies will live on long after the baby boomer generation has disappeared. Right on. I agree that the 1960s do have a strong legacy but I was focusing purely on the gender bending behaviour of the hippies which did not survive even though most of the other behavoural changes did. I belive that is because male gender roles have remained stubbornly static despite many fringe groups trying to influence it for the better.


The metrosexual catch-phrase has proved to be short-lived, it's true, but the phenomenon it references is far from over. Quite the opposite. Again, we may not be talking about mainstream here (yet), but the significance of a subset unabashedly taking an interest in skin care, co-ed aerobics classes, fashion, home decorating or group sensitivity sessions shouldn't be underestimated. Never discount the ripple effect. I hope you are right but even if it does stick around, until it gets into mainstream thinking, it will not change society. There has always been men who prided themselves on their appearance and were immaculately dressed but mainstream men remain jeans and T-shirt slouches.


The color pink isn't what was significant about that TV interview. I had a pink shirt when I was in junior high, and this weekend I went shopping with my 14-year-old son and we picked out a pink shirt with green stripes for him. That's just cyclical fashion trends. What is significant about that interview was that it involved a straight man and a gay man on prime time TV (!!!) talking about a much larger trend in men's fashion toward the adoption of aspects of style that for a very long time have been the rather exclusive domain of women. Think about that — a very cool gay guy and an equally cool straight guy finding middle ground, in front of an audience. Middle ground ... hmmm. I agree that gay men are becoming more mainstream and this will benefit the CD community somewhat. Here in the Philippines many TV shows have gay presenters and characters but I was still cursed at when I walked crossdressed through a shopping mall a few weeks ago.


Femininely expressive men (mannerisms, dress, sensibilities, etc.) may never constitute more than a peripheral subset of the gender, but their ranks are swelling, their influence will spill over, and we will in time see a greater degree of tolerance in society, and I don't see those trends reversing themselves anytime soon. Far out.
I agree that society is becoming ever more tolerant which is great, but without the CD community actively pushing our agenda, progress will be slow, but that is better than no progress at all.

[Holly]

Thank you again for taking the time to express your thoughts and feeling on this. Not to take away form any of you, I am convinced more than ever that I am married to the most wonderful person I have ever had the priviledge to know.Letsdance,

This one comment speaks volumes of the importance of honesty and mutual respect play in a relationship. You and Honey have every right to feel good about yourselves and the relationship you have built together.

[Helana]

Thank you again for taking the time to express your thoughts and feeling on this. Not to take away form any of you, I am convinced more than ever that I am married to the most wonderful person I have ever had the priviledge to know.

Can there be a better compliment than that? :) I hope my girlfriend thinks the same way.

[letsdance GG]

I'm so glad you decided to participate in this thread. This discussion is going to be rather incomplete if we don't hear from gender ladies.

I have no desire to invade your privacy, but if you feel comfortable doing so, I would love to hear your thoughts on the notion that a feminized man in the bedroom can't or doesn't satisfy a woman's natural physical attraction to masculinity.

Personally, the fem side makes the masculine more attractive.
What woman would not want a more considerate, caring partner?
Honest interest in your partners wants and needs is very important.
Who wants to be with a selfish person in any setting?
Hope that answers your question. If not, let me know and I will try to add more thoughts on it.

[letsdance GG]

Letsdance,

This one comment speaks volumes of the importance of honesty and mutual respect play in a relationship. You and Honey have every right to feel good about yourselves and the relationship you have built together.

Thank you for the kind words.
All relationships require effort. I feel if it is worth having, it's worth the effort to nuture and care for it.
As a result, we have even more love and respect for the others opinion.
Knowing that we come from the same loving direction in our efforts means more than just saying I love you. It shows that there is honest concern and genuine love for the other person

[letsdance GG]

Can there be a better compliment than that? :) I hope my girlfriend thinks the same way.

Thank you Helana.
If your posts are any indication, I am sure that she does feel that way about you.
You strike me as someone who genuinely cares about her wants and needs.
That is a wonderful quality that does not get the recognition it so richly deserves.

[sherri]

Personally, the fem side makes the masculine more attractive.
What woman would not want a more considerate, caring partner?
Honest interest in your partners wants and needs is very important.
Who wants to be with a selfish person in any setting?
Hope that answers your question. If not, let me know and I will try to add more thoughts on it. That aspect makes perfect sense, and your attitude is wonderful.

But let me ask you something by giving an example. I love women and their bodies — their gender-specific anatomy of course, but also their smooth skin, their hair, their scents, their sounds, their clothes, their sexual personalities, their yang to my yin (or is it vice versa?). So the idea of making love to a woman who has adopted a masculine personna — hairy legs, combat boots, etc. — does not appeal to me at all. I've never tried it, mind you, but it sounds yukky. The hairiness alone is enough to turn me off.

So if a woman has a reciprocal preference for the masculine body and behavior, how does she overcome this in order to "get into" a feminized man in bed? That seems to be the point where some wives draw the line. Is it just something you tolerate occasionally, or is it something that can genuinely excite you? And what can a man do to make it more pleasant for his wife?

[confusionatitsbest]

Good grief girls!!!!

I know I wanted help and advice but this is getting very deep. What absolute brilliant veiws and opinions. What more could I ask for when needing answers myself, don't think I'am going to put my pennies worth in yet though, need to absorb this lot a bit more first, the debate just seems to get better.

Great Postings and fantastic points,

Love it girls, thanks

Chrissy xxxx
:cool:

[letsdance GG]

That aspect makes perfect sense, and your attitude is wonderful.

But let me ask you something by giving an example. I love women and their bodies — their gender-specific anatomy of course, but also their smooth skin, their hair, their scents, their sounds, their clothes, their sexual personalities, their yang to my yin (or is it vice versa?). So the idea of making love to a woman who has adopted a masculine personna — hairy legs, combat boots, etc. — does not appeal to me at all. I've never tried it, mind you, but it sounds yukky. The hairiness alone is enough to turn me off.

So if a woman has a reciprocal preference for the masculine body and behavior, how does she overcome this in order to "get into" a feminized man in bed? That seems to be the point where some wives draw the line. Is it just something you tolerate occasionally, or is it something that can genuinely excite you? And what can a man do to make it more pleasant for his wife?


Just to be on the silly side here:

A guy with a really hairy back don't do much for me. I have never been attracted to them. Nothing personal of course, just a preference of mine.
Sounds beyond yukky :p

As far as getting "into it" to be with a feminized man, that too is also a preference in my humble opinion. Just as you couldn't be with a masculine woman, some women can't fathom the idea of being with a feminized man.

Why? Dunno.
Could be for the same reason that some of us like strawberry ice cream and some prefer chocolate. We were made to like different things. I personally think thats a good thing.
Some things I have read about have made me go "uh ok. Whatever blows your skirt up. I'll pass thanks"
Diversity of sexual preference is just something we all have.
What turns me on may make another grossed out.
Like they say, there is a wrench for every nut :p
Hope that helps a little.

[Katiegirl]

Thank you for your advice Helana and sorry for the delay in replying

You are no doubt correct in what you say, but at his moment I do not the drive to form a long term relationship. It is hard enough for me to keep going, but the thought of riding the storm after telling a GG of my crossdressing, is more than I can take at the moment.


:)

Mind of a Woman, Body of a Man, Life is a Bitch

[Amelie]

I don't want to sound too simplistic, because there was a lot of good well thought out posts here. I think that what is being said is correct. It is tough for a woman to accept a fem man, just as a man would have a tough time with a masc woman.

Honesty is what is lacking from Cds in general. Most Cds are telling their wives about their CDing well into the marriage. This is where i feel the hate and anger towards CDing comes into effect. I know this is too late for Cds who are married and are seill hiding. But if todays younger Cds told their SOs from the start and built a relationship from the begining, maybe it won't be a problem later on. Also, if you tell your girlfriend at an early stage, then it won't hurt so much if there is a break up over the CDing.

There are GGs out there who are not afraid of having a relationship with a CD. A CD just has to look a little harder, or go where these types of GGs are.
When I lived in NYC, I had quite a few GGs who were interesred in me. They were fascinated with the CD world and when they got to know me they were even more interested in a relationship. Now,, I know a lot of you live in the outback country, but if you want to find a GG who is willing to accept you, then you have to go to where they are,,they are not in the outbacks.


I think someone said something about the hippie ideas still being around. This is what I mean, there are GGs who have these ideas, who don't really care if someone is a CD, or might even find a CD atractive. But these free thinking
women are usually in the cities, while most of the CDs here on the forum are
in suburbia.

I don't know if I went off-topic with my post, but this is what I see from this thread. It doesn't matter what society says, what you can or can't do. All you need to look for is a GG who is willing to love you as a CD. Nothing else matters as long as you have a loving partner. You just have to find her and be honest. I hope this didn't sound simplistic, but there is no big deep secrets, you just have to find this someone.
Amelie

[sherri]

All you need to look for is a GG who is willing to love you as a CD. Nothing else matters as long as you have a loving partner. You just have to find her and be honest. I hope this didn't sound simplistic, but there is no big deep secrets, you just have to find this someone.
Amelie I suspect that you are exactly right, Amelie. It probably isn't any more complicated than that.

What does that mean for CDs with disinterested wives? Frustration, probably. SOL, at least in terms of expressing their CD sexuality.

It is hard to whip up too much sympathy for those who kept their secret prior to marrying, but I know some CDs don't discover their femininity until later on, and that is a tough situation. I didn't discover mine until the marriage was over.

BTW, how did you go about meeting interested GGs in NYC? And did you ever have a LTR with one of them?

[Helana]

I don't know if I went off-topic with my post, but this is what I see from this thread. It doesn't matter what society says, what you can or can't do. All you need to look for is a GG who is willing to love you as a CD. Nothing else matters as long as you have a loving partner. You just have to find her and be honest. I hope this didn't sound simplistic, but there is no big deep secrets, you just have to find this someone.
Amelie

Spot on Amelie, it is that simple.

I feel sorry for those who are trapped in marriages where their CDing is a secret or is frowned upon. For my lover to reject an important part of me is no good, if she cannot accept all of me, warts and all, then can this relationship last?

It is a great pity that the internet revolution has only occured in the past few years which has allowed CDers to come out of the woodwork. Without the internet I know I would still be swimming around in circles not understanding who or what I am. Fortunately I am still young enough to have taken advantage of this opportunity.

I made a decision not to get married or have kids until I understood myself. I felt it would not be fair to commit myself to someone for the rest of my life when I was still confused about myself. Now many years later I have a clear sense of what I am and how my transgenderism should be incorporated into my life. More importantly I realised, just as you mentioned, that at the end of the day it is all about finding a good girl who loves who for who you are and have an honest and open relationship with her from the outset. I am fortunate to have found such a girl and I am happier now than I have ever been in my life.

[ToniB]

Sherri,
I think you are being a bit harsh on those of us (me included) who didn't tell our wives before we married. Things were not so open in the 1960s. I knew I liked to CD from the age of 10, but it was an on-off thing (and I never wanted to become a girl), and I hoped that the regular opportunities for sex with my wife may subdue the CD activities. It did for quite a while, but then it came back again, only this time, there were drawers full of clothes there, just asking to be worn, and I gave in to the feeling, because it was so exciting.

Yes Helana, it is possible for a mariage to survive where one partner is turned off by something the other desperately wants to do. 35 years and still counting! Of course I'm happy (would naturally be happier if she accepted my CDing), but my priority has always been my marriage over my CDing, which remains in the closet, and only when my wife is out for some time. This forum has given me hope, and a contact with like-minded indivuals that seems like a life-saver, but I mustn't spend so much time here that my wife gets suspicious, and that's difficult, it's so damned addictive and liberating to share a part of you with others, when you've spent your whole life bottling it up.

ToniB

[Amelie]

Toni, I think it was I who said Cds should be honest with their wives. I know there are Cds who are drom a different era, where society didn't let them come out. I was refering to the younger Cds of today, they have the chance to find an accepting GG and be honest with her. I know in the past it was impossible to tell anyone that they were a CD.

Sheri

I would go to clubs that had a mixed crowd, gay, straight, black, white. In these clubs there would be regulars, sort of like this forum, who I would talk to each time I went. The GGs in this crowd would be friends with me as well as the guys, as we got to know each other we became closer. I might be gay, but I didn't wear a sign saying I was gay, and I didn't shout to the world all the time that I was gay. So some of these GGs became attracted to me, I liked them a lot, but for me there was not going to be a real relationship. These GGs were similar to what was described earlier about the hippie ideals. These girls, being punk/goth have similar feelings that the hippeis had years ago. The hippie ideals didn't die, they just evolved into other sub-cultures.
This is what I was trying to say in my last post, there are GGs out there who would not find Cding a problem, a CD just has to go to where they are, they are not going to come to the CD.

I was in one long term relationship with a GG. It was like two guys who are the best of friends. We would do anything for each other, in fact she saved my life when I was at my lowest point in life. She taught me a lot about life. She was the most beautiful woman I have ever known, both inside and out.
We were inseperable, we did everything together.
I can't explain why I was with this girl, there was an attraction stronger than a sexual attraction. It didn't last,, I lost her, I was devastated. For a long time I didn't know what to do with myself. It is only recently that I am getting over her. I have never seen a person like her in my life, she was more than human, she was what can be described as an angel.

[sherri]

Sherri,
I think you are being a bit harsh on those of us (me included) who didn't tell our wives before we married. Things were not so open in the 1960s. I knew I liked to CD from the age of 10, but it was an on-off thing (and I never wanted to become a girl), and I hoped that the regular opportunities for sex with my wife may subdue the CD activities. It did for quite a while, but then it came back again, only this time, there were drawers full of clothes there, just asking to be worn, and I gave in to the feeling, because it was so exciting. Sorry Toni, didn't mean to step on your toes. But you do raise some interesting questions.

When it comes to crossdressing, I'm not so sure the situation is much less volatile now than it was in 1960. Maybe we've made a little progress, but not much. About the only big change I can see is that the Internet has made CDers more aware of each other. I do think more change is coming, however.

You say you have been CDing since you were 10. How realisitc, then, was your notion that it would go away? I'm not passing judgement on you, I promise, because it would be tragic to think that CDing must deprive us of love, marriage, family, etc. I also know that marriage isn't always the sugar-coated bond of acceptance and nurturing it's cracked up to be. Still, you have to admit that was a pretty deceptive bit of denial you opted for, and a deliberate choice.

BTW, is it too late to broach the subject with your wife? Is there no hope of having a more honest relationship? If the answer is no, I understand, believe me. I know instinctively that my ex would have never accepted it, and with five kids around, it would have been impossible to pursue it. It wasn't an issue for me because I hadn't started dressing yet, but giving up dressing in exchange for love wouldn't have been a problem for me then, and it wouldn't be now.

Nevertheless, in your case, there the issue is. Whenever I hear about a situation like yours, I always wonder if the wife, being the intuitive creature that most women are, doesn't suspect something anyway. There are members in the forum who have testified that honesty about their CDing has raised some issues, but it has led to some longterm benefits, too, not the least of which is stronger emotional ties with their wives.

Only you and your wife know what would be the best for your marriage. For me, having learned what I have, that would be the driving force that dictated my behavior.

[ToniB]

Sherri,
I didn't treat it as a "stepping on my toes" at all. No, I respect all opinions, and yes, I may have been guilty of being less than 100% honest when I married, but then who doesn't have a skeleton or two in their cupboard. There's plenty worse than CDing!

I'd found someone who I thought was the best girl in the world (still do 38 years later), and after 2 years, asked her to marry me. And what do you know, she accepted! I really didn't think of telling her of my "kink", I didn't know of any others who had the same fetish and the thought of turning her away was too much to bear. Thinking about it after your post, yes I may have been selfish. I really did think that I could keep the lid on my desire to CD, which I knew then was to me an exciting aid to masturbation, nothing more. With loving sex (the best kind for me, and I've only ever had the one partner) available "on-tap", I guessed (hoped) the desire would wither away, and at the beginning it did. I suppose I was also too afraid to bring the subject up.

As time went on, kids came along, sex declined, and the supressed feelings came back, and although I had taken the odd opportunities to wear her clothes (particularly lingerie) throughout our life together, it became stronger, and I thought about it more.

About 15 years ago, I plucked up the courage to open the subject. I told her what I liked doing (but not everything I wanted, that would have been too much for a first step), how much excitement I got from it, and what pleasure it gave me. I asked if we could introduce it into our love-life? I didn't trust myself to say it right, or to say everything, so I wrote her a long note, and asked her to read it right through before passing comment. To say that she was upset was an understatement. It nearly ended in divorce there and then. I was kinky, and she doesn't like that, she wanted a man in her bed, not a woman, and many other things. Many of them may have been based on misconceptions, but it was obvious that we were never going to have a rational discussion on the subject. She didn't tell me to stop or else, but that she "didn't want to know" about anything I did in that direction. However, there have been a few occasions (less than 5 in 15 years) when she's allowed me to wear some of her lingerie in bed, but she's insisted on being blindfolded before I've dressed, and undressed before the blindfold comes off. I've bough satin sheets and tied her up too, to get her used to the idea that sex does not always have to be vanilla with the lights off, and I can tell she has stronger orgasms (I always make sure she orgasms) like this, but it's a very slow process.

We may make more progress in my lifetime, but I've said before, if I had to choose between her and CDing, she'd win hands down every time. So I'll have my solo fun in the closet for as long as it takes. Hope you see my point of view now. I'm still glad I didn't take the risk of losing her back in 1969 in spite of the downside on the CD subject. I've also got a lot of comfort from the 6 weeks I've been on this site (though what she'd think if she knew, I don't know), and can see her side more clearly, but whether I'll take the risk of bringing up the subject again, I don't know.

Thanks for lending me your ear, and putting the other point of view.

ToniB

[sherri]

Thinking about it after your post, yes I may have been selfish.. I don't think you're selfish at all. In fact, you sound like a very loving, disciplined person to me. I totally understand your thought process in the choices you've made.


As time went on, kids came along, sex declined, and the supressed feelings came back This is interesting. CDing as stimulus in the absence of other stimuli. I think this is a motive for many of us, especially — dare I say it? — as we get older.


I've bough satin sheets and tied her up too, to get her used to the idea that sex does not always have to be vanilla with the lights off, and I can tell she has stronger orgasms (I always make sure she orgasms) like this, but it's a very slow process. Where there's kink, there's hope, right? :p


We may make more progress in my lifetime, but I've said before, if I had to choose between her and CDing, she'd win hands down every time. So I'll have my solo fun in the closet for as long as it takes. Hope you see my point of view now. I do, I do. I feel so much better whenever I hear someone's assurance that they keep their CDing in perspective. Love really is one of the few things that really matter in life.


Thanks for lending me your ear, and putting the other point of view.

ToniB Thank you, Toni.

xoxo

[Aloha_Dana]

It is nice to read that everyone is being so respectful of each other and taking this thread to heart. I have a couple of random comments to pitch in.

Sheri, I know you didn't intentionally want to hurt us by saying that we've acted faciciously, or dishonestly by not coming out before getting hitched. Though it still hurts, just a bit, down inside somewhere. I know my wife has had a hard time w/a few of my, privileges. I can still hear her getting totally upset when she caught me masturbating in bed (w/her in it) while I thought she was asleep. Did I 'fess up to her that I masturbated before we married? No.

One reason why many of us don't come out to potential LTR SO's is that we may not want to. We may be very well suited to keep it to ourselves, as our own little secret. Not all of us want to come out. Those CD who feel this way aren't here. I made my decision because it has grown to a point where I want more, of something (I might still be figuring that out).

Something else to consider is that my wife has stuff that she does not want to share w/me. She says she wants them for her own self. She wants a part of her to be hers and only hers. I've caught glimpses of this trait when I've asked to share fantasies w/each other. No doing. And last night after we watched the Kinsey documentary I asked her what she thought about Kinsey's premise that very few people are 100% heterosexual or homosexual, that most people are somewhere in between. She agreed w/it. Then I asked her where she fit. She answered because I pressed, but she didn't like it (me pressing, or her answering). And this morning, she was still upset.

We all have stuff we don't share w/our SO's. Not all SO's want to be told. Some relationships have more of a privacy to them, others have more of an open nature. Neither is bad or good, better or worse. It just depends on the people in the relationship and how they handle it.

Aloha,
Dana

[Helana]

Yes Helana, it is possible for a mariage to survive where one partner is turned off by something the other desperately wants to do. 35 years and still counting! Of course I'm happy (would naturally be happier if she accepted my CDing), but my priority has always been my marriage over my CDing, which remains in the closet, and only when my wife is out for some time. This forum has given me hope, and a contact with like-minded indivuals that seems like a life-saver, but I mustn't spend so much time here that my wife gets suspicious, and that's difficult, it's so damned addictive and liberating to share a part of you with others, when you've spent your whole life bottling it up.

ToniB

Hi Toni,

It is good to hear that love conquers all and relationships can survive. I don't judge those who did not tell their wives before marriage, I agree that it is only very recently that there has been enough information and support out there for CDers to consider taking the potentialy risky decision to open up to their SOs.

I never told any of my previous girlfriends so I too am guilty of hiding this part of me and while I could live with it, keeping a secret is no fun at all and a part of me always felt detached. Now that I have experienced an open, honest relationship I could never consider having another future relationship where I kept my CDing a secret. Of course, I have no intentions of letting my present girlfriend go ;)

[Helana]

Sheri, I know you didn't intentionally want to hurt us by saying that we've acted faciciously, or dishonestly by not coming out before getting hitched. Though it still hurts, just a bit, down inside somewhere. I know my wife has had a hard time w/a few of my, privileges. I can still hear her getting totally upset when she caught me masturbating in bed (w/her in it) while I thought she was asleep. Did I 'fess up to her that I masturbated before we married? No.


This reminds me of a situation many years ago when the wife of a good friend of mine sent me an email about how upset she was that she had caught her husband masturbating in the bathroom. She felt this was a rejection of her. She also thought that only perverts masturbated. She was basically clueless about male sexuality and divorced him a few months later.

There is a big gulf between male and female thinking on sex at the best of times, so introducing an variable such as CDing can really upset the balance. This thread started off by describing CDing as a kink - and this is undoubtedly how most women view it. And since it seems that many women are not really interested in kinky sex, that they go along with it more for the benefit of their husbands, then CDing may be seen as a kink too far especially as it can threaten their own sexuality.

None of my girlfriends have been forthcoming about their fantasies, it appears to be especially private to girls. Men are more likely to voice their fantasies.

[sherri]

Sheri, I know you didn't intentionally want to hurt us by saying that we've acted faciciously, or dishonestly by not coming out before getting hitched. Though it still hurts, just a bit, down inside somewhere. I know my wife has had a hard time w/a few of my, privileges.

One reason why many of us don't come out to potential LTR SO's is that we may not want to. We may be very well suited to keep it to ourselves, as our own little secret. Look Dana, I'm not casting any stones here, I'm just discussing things, and I'm aiming my own comments at myself as much as anyone else. It's impossible to have a meaningful dialogue about these isssues without making some pointed observations.

Besides, I haven't accused anyone of being facetious, and regarding dishonesty, I think what I actually said was:

In a very real sense, a crossdresser who insinuates his penchant into the relationship after the fact, as it were, is violating a good faith principle.

I'll stand by that statement, and I think any spouse would substantiate it. I can't see that a deliberate choice to keep this kind of secret alters this circumstance one whit just because it is intentional. It does not follow, however, that the violation is necessarily a mean-spirited thing. In fact, it is most probably born out of an earnest desire not to let a fetish stand in the way of a rewarding life. Grappling with CDing can be a very difficult thing, emotionally and practically. Motives for secrecy can run the gamut from guilt and fear to consideration and sacrifice. In many, many relationships, I'm not sure there is any problem-free solution for the presence of a desire to crossdress. Secretive or open, there are going to be trade-offs either way.

The reason any of this is important to me is that I know from my own personal experience that we aren't fooling our mates as much as we might think, and secrets have a tendency to drive wedges between mates. But that's just my experience; yours may be different.


I can still hear her getting totally upset when she caught me masturbating in bed (w/her in it) while I thought she was asleep. Did I 'fess up to her that I masturbated before we married? No. I think masturbation bothers a lot of wives because they tend to take it personally. All I can say to that is, they don't know us very well, do they? :p


Something else to consider is that my wife has stuff that she does not want to share w/me. She says she wants them for her own self. She wants a part of her to be hers and only hers. I've caught glimpses of this trait when I've asked to share fantasies w/each other. No doing. And last night after we watched the Kinsey documentary I asked her what she thought about Kinsey's premise that very few people are 100% heterosexual or homosexual, that most people are somewhere in between. She agreed w/it. Then I asked her where she fit. She answered because I pressed, but she didn't like it (me pressing, or her answering). And this morning, she was still upset. Of course you're right about this. We all have our own thoughts and feelings, and there's no law that says we have to share everything in order to have a good marriage. In fact, there are some things that are better left unsaid. As such things pertain to sexuality, I wonder if women instinctively keep their fantasies to themselves because they suspect they would make their husbands feel insecure. I dunno. Maybe their fantasies are just their little diversions and they'd like to keep it that way. I think most of us would agree, however, that there is difference between fantasizing about something and actually doing it. I think men have a stronger desire to turn fantasies into reality than do women.


We all have stuff we don't share w/our SO's. Not all SO's want to be told. Some relationships have more of a privacy to them, others have more of an open nature. Neither is bad or good, better or worse. It just depends on the people in the relationship and how they handle it.

Aloha,
Dana I wouldn't dream of second-guessing you or anyone else on this type of relationship dynamic. For what it's worth, I will comment that I tend to be a private person, and more than one woman in my life has complained about that character trait. If I ever have the privilege of having another relationship, it's something I intend to work on.

[sherri]

This reminds me of a situation many years ago when the wife of a good friend of mine sent me an email about how upset she was that she had caught her husband masturbating in the bathroom. She felt this was a rejection of her. She also thought that only perverts masturbated. She was basically clueless about male sexuality and divorced him a few months later. Whoa. I'm guessing that suggesting a strap-on to this girl wouldn't have been productive? :p I'm trying to imagine her conversation with her divorce attorney, and her testimony in the courtroom. Every man in the room had to be cracking up.


There is a big gulf between male and female thinking on sex at the best of times, so introducing an variable such as CDing can really upset the balance. We've heard from some wonderful, accepting GGs in this thread, and about other wives who have adjuster to lesser degrees. But you just have to wonder if most wives ever recover from such a revelation.

[Aloha_Dana]

Look Dana, I'm not casting any stones here, I'm just discussing things, and I'm aiming my own comments at myself as much as anyone else. It's impossible to have a meaningful dialogue about these isssues without making some pointed observations.

Besides, I haven't accused anyone of being facetious, and regarding dishonesty, I think what I actually said was:

[i]In a very real sense, a crossdresser who insinuates his penchant into the relationship after the fact, as it were, is violating a good faith principle.

Sherri, I'm sorry. My word choice was not accurate. I do appreciate the open discussion.

I think what struck me is that I have 'violated a good faith pricipal'. I definatetly didn't do so intentionally, nor knowingly. I know you are not handing out citations or casting stones, so why do I feel so defensive?

No hard feelings, girl. Keep 'em coming.

Dana

[letsdance GG]

I have learned alot reading this thread. I reiterate my earlier opinion that anyone who has participated is wonderful.

Each of us has a comfort zone. Some women may accept, some may not. Only you really know for sure how she will or won't react should you choose to tell her.

I suspected for a long time that my husband was up to something. I couldn't quite figure it out though. I once found a pair of sexy panties that I truly believed belonged to an ex girlfriend. I wondered A) why didn't she take her stuff when she left and B) why on EARTH would he keep them???
I wasn't able to ask him because other than going ballistic, I did not know how.
Once he told me I was so relieved to find out that the panties were his!
I even entertained the idea he was cheating on me. Women are perceptive whether you know it or not. We can sense a change in you long before you do. At least I can.

This thread has been a real eye opener for me. Thank you for starting it Sherri.

[sherri]

I suspected for a long time that my husband was up to something ... Women are perceptive whether you know it or not. We can sense a change in you long before you do. At least I can.

This thread has been a real eye opener for me. Thank you for starting it Sherri. I'm pretty intuitive myself, but you girls are on another level. How do y'all do that? Is it like sonar or something? It's uncanny, whatever it is. It took me awhile, but I finally learned that if you're living with a woman, it's a waste of time trying to fool her.

And you're welcome.

:)

[Amelie]

I'm pretty intuitive myself, but you girls are on another level. How do y'all do that? Is it like sonar or something? It's uncanny, whatever it is. It took me awhile, but I finally learned that if you're living with a woman, it's a waste of time trying to fool her.

And you're welcome.

:)


Sheri, it's called femdar, it is very similar to gaydar.

[letsdance GG]

Where did I get it???

Dunno.

All I can say is that it sure comes in handy when you are raising THREE teenage gilrs :D :eek:

[sherri]

I think what struck me is that I have 'violated a good faith pricipal'. I definatetly didn't do so intentionally, nor knowingly. I know you are not handing out citations or casting stones, so why do I feel so defensive? This might be a point worth examining further for the sake of understanding the resisitance we might encounter from SOs. To me, the issue is one of empathy.

I borrow the term "good faith" from business and legal principles — without wishing to be legalistic about all this. In commerce, we buy a product or service based on the seller's representation of the product and our assessment of its suitability for our need based upon that representation. We enter into legally binding agreements based upon the assumption that the other party will fulfill his responsibility as described in the contract.

Applying the term and principle to a marriage, it is reasonable for a mate to enter into a serious, longterm relationship based upon his or her perception of the character and nature of her partner and the expectation that her partner will behave in ways consistent with the values and behavior he demonstrated during their courtship. In other words, she expects that what she sees is what she's going to get.

Now we all know you can never really know another person completely, and we should expect to learn things about each other as time goes by, things we hadn't foreseen. Some of those things will be delightful, some not so great. In order to have a good marriage, some give and take is necessary to accomodate these unexpected "quirks". But I think we would all agree that in a normal heterosexual marital relationship, the sudden emergence of crossdressing is a pretty big hiccup. And when it comes to light that this personality trait has a long history that predates the marriage, the wife has a right to think that her good faith assumptions about her mate have been violated.

If I were in her shoes, I'd be thinking (or saying), "Whoa, time out here. This is not what I bargained for. I'm a normal vanilla kind of girl, and I thought you were a normal vanilla kind of guy, and you know that. Do you expect me to be okay with all this? I think I'm getting cheated here, and I'm not at all sure I would have married you if I had known this about you. Did you think you could keep this a secret and then spring it on me after I made the marital commitment? Have you been manipulating me?" This is an understandable reaction, even when you know your motive wasn't anywhere near that sinister.

I think it's easy for a crossdresser to get caught up in the frustration he experiences when his SO fails to be understanding about his fetish or nature or whatever you want to call it. Without a doubt, it is frustrating. But he should never lose sight of what the situation is like for his SO. If he has any hope of arriving at a mutually acceptable solution, he has to start by empathizing with her reaction to a very unsettling development, and maybe be honest with himself that he has been practicing a bit of deception, even if he meant well.

[Aloha_Dana]

Now we all know you can never really know another person completely, and we should expect to learn things about each other as time goes by, things we hadn't foreseen. Some of those things will be delightful, some not so great. In order to have a good marriage, some give and take is necessary to accomodate these unexpected "quirks". But I think we would all agree that in a normal heterosexual marital relationship, the sudden emergence of crossdressing is a pretty big hiccup. And when it comes to light that this personality trait has a long history that predates the marriage, the wife has a right to think that her good faith assumptions about her mate have been violated.


Sherri, Good points, well stated. You've laid it out clear how some SO's might feel. This is very important for us to recognize, specially for those of us in a situtuation similar to the one I am in (married, lifer CD, considering or recently out to the SO).

I have always been a proponent of LTR's. I believe that LTR's change their dynamics in time. People grow, change, acquire different tastes, likes, etc. I feel that the folks in healthier LTR's know this and accept the change. Some look forward to it, wanting to grow w/their SO. It is kinda exciting when you think about it. It puts your love into them and what they can be, not what they were.

Here is my philosophy applied to my relationship. When I was courting my future SO, I knew she was a vanilla, down-home type girl. At this time I also had my sexual kinks embedded in me. I thought, and still stick to this ideal, that we are changing, and selfishly, that I would be able to get her interested in the other flavors of sex. I'm not one for XXX, but I do hold true that a couple can experience a heck of a lot if they love and trust each other. So on this premise that our relationship is genuine, that our love and trust is steadfast, I have introduced her to the other flavors of sex, with hopes that varied sex and true intimacy will be one of the cornerstones of our relationship, along w/love and trust. And I'm not talking about a vanilla sex pebble, I'm talking about a boulder.

OK, to reitterate, her preference is vanilla w/maybe some chocolate sprinkles on top w/a strawberry on the side.

I am with you that relationships change. I expect ours to and look forward to it. In this case, I am trying to shape our relationship like a sculpter. My frustration is that I have not been able to sculpt the third (sex) stone as I'd like to. I haven't given up, yet. But it is a source of frustration.

I don't feel that this violates the good faith principle, but some might. What have you got to say?

Dana

[sherri]

If any GGs are following my discussion with Dana, would you care to weigh in? We'd love to hear what you think. Other CDs too, of course.

[Rachael Lynn]

I hope that I can stay with the thread here. Very thought provoking indeed.
This is in reference to the courtship of our SO's. In my case, I never pretended to be someone who I wasn't, I just never showed the whole me. Not being forthcoming. Like with employment, not being forthcoming about your background, can get you fired. I feel that we have all put our best and most acceptable self forward ( those of us that are or were in the closet ) to our SO's during courtship. My intent here isn't to convey any kind of deceit that is taking place during courtship. However, we were disingenuous at best. And this was the risk that we were willing to take. In my own experience, my wife understood the torment that was my most personal and private secret, the torment of having to hide my crossdressing. An action not taken lightly. Even knowing that everything might end upon confession, we make the decision to reveal ourselves. Unlike having an affair, this is something new to respond to. Creating a new thought process. A different kind of challenge to cope with.

When everything comes to light, they are only left with the...death of a salesman. Let's face it, we sold ourselves as someone else.It changes their perspective of us. Moving froward is entirely up to them. It is truly like starting over. They just know more about you now than when you first met.

Do the GG's feel any sense of loss? Just one question that comes to mind.

Side Bar: I know I haven't posted much, but I have been here everyday since I joined. Thank you all for being here. I would be lost without you.

Rachael Lynn

[Helana]

Excellent post Sherri and I hope all the girls here will read it and give it serious consideration. We all know we do decieve even if it is for the best of intentions. For all those who got married a long time ago, I know myself how little information or support there was out there and how you would have naturally thought your love for your wife would overcome your CDing so I sympathize with your situation.

However, for those who are single now and have all this information at hand, I do not think that it is responsible behaviour anymore to enter into marriage or a long term relationship and keep this a secret. We all know that we will be this way until the day we die, there are no cures and we cannot suppress it either, eventually it will resurface no matter how hard we try.

Since this information is widely available, single crossdressers now have a deliberate choice to make. Confess and make the relationship stronger or keep an important part of them a secret and risk trauma and separation later. I feel if they truely love their partner then they should tell them as soon as practical. I am pretty confident that all GGs would agree with me on this point.

I think that in many instances, GGs can love a CDer, but they need to make that choice for themselves. Opening up to them and sharing your deepest held secret is a risk for sure but the pay-off of a close, loving, understanding, fulfilling relationship awaits the brave.