Gender Queer!! For everyone!!

[Felix]

Ok here goes, what do we understand about the word Gender Queer? I'm not wanting quotes I want you own personal understanding. I'm asking this cos I think it's one of the hardest things to understand. It's open to everyone :happy:

For me it means that I have both female and male elements but I definitely feel more masculine hence how I present. I want to pass as much as possible so I deal with ppl who call me by my female name in my own way cos it's usually ppl who have always known me and I am not completely out to or those who find it hard to flip in their minds to me as Felix, I am understanding. Also I do feel that I have a female spirit that keeps me in check and a psyche that is male and is dominant in many ways. It also means that I do not have to have all the bits if I don't want. Yes I want to feel more male and yes I would love a chest but I don't want a real p****. This is the first time I think I have said this here but I feel I can now. I do enjoy p****** and it feels right but that's as far as it goes and I'm pretty sure about that. For me and I think this is was make's me gender queer is the fact that I don't feel that having a false p**** attached to me will make me a genetic male as will having hormones. For me having hormones will help my body come in line with my psyche and that's good. So it's not important to have the other. I'm quite happy to p***!! Hope I make sense peeps xx Felix :hugs:

[MJ]

OK to be honest i don't understand that. i feel like i should have been born a woman.
but how does a woman feel ??
so for me wanting to become a woman is the gender that I feel suite's me better .
as Paul i was always wanting to become any woman that i see . i was unhappy because nobody knew the real me and scared to show the world who i relay was.
but as Marissa i am one very happy girl :D
now the word " Queer " use to be that you felt sick or ill not feeling your self and to day it has a different meaning like " GAY " meant you were happy feel very good , what does it mean today?
so i guess i am gender sick or not well

[Felix]

Yeah it does seam to have a lot of meanings these days but I don't think ya gender sick or not well ya just you. I don't feel sick in anyway I just feel I want to express how I feel that part of me that has been shut away really for years xx Felix :hugs:

[Dasein9]

I think it's a matter of "queering" up gender. Messing with it, making it stop meaning what it used to, to me anyway. :D

[Felix]

I like that idea Das it sounds about right :D xx Felix :hugs:

[Country girl]

Felix, Good post and yes you do make sense. I have to honestly say that I can't identify with your feelings as I've always loved being a girl and being able to be feminine. As my byline says, I love being a girly girl but I know and understand how hard it can be trying to find the acceptance not only from ourselves of ourselves but from other peolpe. I had a difficult upbringing and never felt accepted, as you will, for who I was and am today. I had a hard time accepting myself so how were others to accept me? I still think that sometimes it is an issue that most people deal with from time to time in their lives. I think to be able to define that, which you have done, speaks great volumes about who you are as a person. I don't necessarily agree with the term gender queer but I know a lot of people definately have gender identity issues. Truth is I think we all have a little of both genders, it's just that some people have stronger feelings about their gender than others. I hope I have made some sense and not just succeeded in muddying the waters more. :hugs: CG GG

[Dasein9]

Yeh, but GG's do things that are non-gender-conformist sometimes too. So y'all get to help us queer up gender! :)

[Felix]

Thanx Country Girl and yes I can relate to what you are saying. I do agree that we all have a bit of both. Maybe the word Gender queer is too harsh, I don't know maybe gender fluid would be better xx Felix :hugs:

[Ms. Donna]

Ok here goes, what do we understand about the word Gender Queer? I'm not wanting quotes I want you own personal understanding. I'm asking this cos I think it's one of the hardest things to understand. It's open to everyone :happy:

Well...

Have a look here for my take: Being Genderqueer: What it Means for Me (http://wanderingaloud.wordpress.com/being-genderqueer/)

More later... :)

Regards,
Donna

[Country girl]

I think I like the gender fluid word. It is different, but queer just isn't right, ya know? :hugs: CG GG

[Julie York]

Bi-Gender.

[Wren]

Definitely a good question. I've always considered gender queer to be.. kind of like a toss up of the identification so just.. identifying in a way where you don't fit into your socially administered archetypes.

I think Gender = fluidity, so saying "gender fluid" is a redundancy like "free gift". That's just a personal opinion though.

Gender queer kind of feels like trying to attach a really wide label to a fluxuating concept, something that isn't solid.

Mind boggling stuff.

[Felix]

Oh this thread is so interesting and stimulating, thanx everyone :thumbsup:

Donna thank you so much I love your perception of this whole concept. I'm not sure how fluid I feel Cos like Yachica said to me yesterday I never talk much about my female side even though I know it's there and I have a fear of loosing it. She pointed out and quite accurately that everything I talk about is male with little deviation. It is hard to understand and that's why I put this on here cos people find it a tough one to understand. I respect everyones identity. I concluded that this is the most comfortable that I have felt in my life with myself and she agreed that I suit the way I dress and that it's probably the style that suits me best :thumbsup: It is so difficult to explain this concept to people because it's a grey area not black or white, male or female, a mixture or maybe feeling more strongly one than the other. All I know is I feel more strongly masculine than feminine and it's where I'm more comfortable. I totally respect other people who identify as being in the wrong body! Like I said if it was easy for me to get to where I would like to be I probably would, take hormones and have chest surgery and I think have a male name or something that is gender neutral. Thanx Donna ya Brill :D

Wren I see where ya coming from and agree it's mind boggling!!

Julie..... Bi Gender, interesting, would ya like to expand? If it's what I think ya mean I wouldn't be cos I'm only interested in women most definitely!

Is that because of the stigma around the word Queer Donna or somethin else?

xx Felix :hugs:

[Ms. Donna]

Hi Felix,

From Wikipedia:

The term genderqueer originated as an identity utilized mainly by white, middle and upper-class Americans who were born female or are otherwise on the FtM (female-to-male) or transmasculine spectrum, but today there are many self-identified genderqueer people who are from different racial, ethnic, class, gender, and national backgrounds. However, people who identify as genderqueer are still disproportionately from that group.


In the context of the above, you definitely fit the demographic. :)

It might help to do a bit of reading with respect to Queer Theory. An excellent place to start is with Riki Wilchins Queer Theory, Gender Theory: An Instant Primer (http://www.amazon.com/Queer-Theory-Gender-Instant-Primer/dp/1555837980/ref=sr_1_8/103-4539752-1715859?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178456326&sr=8-8). This is a very accessible book and I cannot recommend it enough.

"Queer" as an identifier no longer is specifically one of homosexuality, but has grown (and been largely reclaimed) to be inclusive of almost any identity which is not heteronormatively (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormative) aligned. This can include gays, lesbians, butches & femmes (which are identities in their own right,) transpeople of all types. It also is inclusive of people involved in relationships which defy a standard classification. I know people who identify as and consider their relationship as 'queer' - sans additional modifiers.

There is some stigma associated with the word 'queer' as it has been used in the past, but I find that as an identifier, queer become very appropriate and even accurate because it sums up our relation to the prevailing prevailing standards of heteronormatively. Queer traditionally was defined along the lines of strange or unusual - and in this respect, we can be thought of as queering sexuality and/or gender because in contrast to the norms of society, we are doing something 'strange', 'unusual' or 'out of the ordinary'.

The trick is to move past the idea that different = bad. Different is neither good or bad, right or wrong. Different simply is: and in that respect, Genderqueer - the queering of gender - is taking the prevailing gender norms and challenging them by showing that gender is more than just 'men and women'.

All, of course, in my (not so) humble opinion. ;)

Regards,
Donna

[Felix]

Hi Donna, yup I think I do fit the demographic :heehee: thanx for the info, I must try to get hold of that book it sounds really interesting. When I was at Uni studying for my gender studies degree we only touched on queer theory, I am really interested these days which is no surprise. I think my interest really sparked when I watched that group of drag kings on tv from the States I felt I identified with them then, not as a drag king but who they were and how they identified. That was two possibly three years ago. Amazing where I've come since then. Yachica said then jokingly 'you would like to be like that' I was like :o and denied it. Lol we did played with gender then but that's all it was cos I didn't have the means then and had only just started discovering my identity as Lesbian fully. So I was quite a butch in the early days of self discovery, got called mate quite a lot then too and it did give me a buzz even then. Thanx Donna :hugs: :hugs: xx Felix

[kittypw GG]

Well...

Have a look here for my take: Being Genderqueer: What it Means for Me (http://wanderingaloud.wordpress.com/being-genderqueer/)

More later... :)

Regards,
Donna

Oh Ms Donna, I love it when you come around. :D

I really agree with what you have written. I have at times questioned myself about my relationship to my hubby. What does it say about me that I enjoy his cd'ing and find it quite sexy. Am I gay? Am I masculine? What am I?
I like the term genderqueer. I guess that applies to me as well. I have masculine components to my personality. I have taken those gender tests and have scored with equal masculine/femanine traits. I don't think about it as often because I present as the gender of my birth but the question still rattles around in my brain.
The goal in life is to accept and embrace who you are as a person and if we need a label then count me in as genderqueer. :thumbsup: :hugs:
Kitty

[Xaff]

My defenition of genderqueer: The body is boy or girl, but the mind is nor boy nor girl. (realy short defenition huh)

Xaff,

[mistunderstood]

Gender queer, ummmm have to think about that. I feel most of the time male but there are times that I feel female. I have come the point that I have tried to make peace with the female side because I can not deney that side exsitence. I can hide it but it is still there mad as it makes me. For 6 days a month it lets me knowI am female. Now as for queer part I feel that way every time I wear ladies clothing like bathing suit. I do not feel queer dateing my girl friend or when I bind my chest or were my packy. When I do not do these things that is when I feel queer.
Hope that helps.

[Kate Simmons]

Interesting thoughts these. I have to say that regardless of what we call ourselves, the members of this Forum are some of the most dynamic and passionate people I have ever met who are trying to understand this gender thing and becoming comfortable with who they are and the acceptance of others for who they are. I have never seen the likes of this anywhere else and we are definately a positive force in this world. I've had my fill of intolerance and have absolutely no use for it, never did. What is happening here shows me that there is indeed hope for the human race and we may well be the stage for the next step in human development. What we accomplish here is positive my friends, never doubt it for a moment.:happy:

[happyfish]

Salandra, that was a beautiful thought.:hugs:
Genderqueer is just...not male or female. I sort of identify (sometimes) as genderqueer because I like the idea that I have a female body under my clothes. Other times I'm just confused. *shrugs* I agree with Xaff.

[Ms. Donna]

Oh Ms Donna, I love it when you come around. :D

Aw, shucks... :o


I have at times questioned myself about my relationship to my hubby. What does it say about me that I enjoy his cd'ing and find it quite sexy. Am I gay? Am I masculine? What am I?

I like the term genderqueer. I guess that applies to me as well. I have masculine components to my personality.

Another book suggestion: She's Not the Man I Married: My Life with a Transgender Husband (http://www.amazon.com/Shes-Not-Man-Married-Transgender/dp/1580051936/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2902086-3602335?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178476739&sr=8-1) by Helen Boyd. Aside from being a totally cool woman, Helen is a gifted writer. This, her second book, is a very personal account of how her relationship with Betty has effected her. Lots of excellent insight with respect to gender in general and what being in a queer relationship means. Especially interesting is her discussion of what she calls being a 'gender variant heterosexual'.

Heterosexuality, as enforced by the heteronormatively of society, does not really make allowances for 'gender variance' by otherwise 'normal, heterosexual' individuals. When boiled down, a 'straight' woman in a relationship with a crossdresser (or other gender variant individual) really is gender variant and non-conforming in her own way. But lacking what we can call a 'legitimating lexicon' with which to express this heterosexual gender variance, such people - perhaps, Kitty, like yourself - are foreclosed from possibility. You are left in the incongruent space of being a straight woman in a heterosexual relationship with a (gender variant) crossdresser - which by definition causes one to question the 'straightness' of both you and the relationship. In short, you become 'unintelligible'.

Without a 'legitimating lexicon', we are unable to accurately express these relationships and ways of being which exist at the borders of intelligibility. In fact, our discussions often become these twisted conversations where we are forced to debate and negotiate our identities because we have become 'fundamentally unintelligible':


To find that you are fundamentally unintelligible (indeed, that the laws of culture and of language find you to be an impossibility) is to find that you have not yet achieved access to the human, to find yourself speaking only and always as if you were human, but with a sense that you are not, to find that your language is hollow, that no recognition is forthcoming because the norms by which recognition takes place are not in your favor. (Judith Butler, Undoing Gender, P. 30)

Gender variance - the queering of gender - moves us outside the norms of recognition for society. Because the "norms of recognition function to produce and to deproduce the notion of the human," and "because the norms by which recognition takes place are not in (our) favor," almost any queering of gender serves to render us as something 'not human' - we are something 'other' to those who would interact with us. We are, in short, rendered as unrecognizable.

This is perhaps what is behind much of the insistence in identifying as a 'heterosexual crossdresser' (emphasis on the 'heterosexual') for both the crossdresser as well as their partners. The continued assertion to a 'heterosexual' identity on the part of both individuals allows them to remain 'intelligible' to society. To identify as anything else - to queer (in any way) the binary implicit in the identifier 'heterosexual' is to move from the sphere of intelligibility' to that of 'unintelligibility'.

For a little more on this, have a look at this thread I posted about a year ago: The Difficulty of Acceptance (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26907).

Regards,
Donna

[Joy Carter]

Don't care what you call me. Just don't call me late for dinner.:D

[bi_weird]

Mmm I find it interesting how my answer has changed as I read this thread.
I have long since given up enumerating who belongs in "queer" (between my asexual friend and the cumbersome nature of the acronym "LGBT") and instead define it as "anyone who has to come out and feels they fit". So I guess genderqueer according to that defination is the subset of people who self-identify as queer and have to come out as such in terms of their gender.
I've always seen genderqueer and genderf**k as related terms differing in intensity (and perhaps purpose) of expression. That genderf**k implies a purposful warping of gender norms so as to turn heads or cause people to think. Genderqueer is the more mild idea, where gender norms are blurred or blended, but for the purpose of making those around you notice.
I've always sorta thought of it as someone with both stereotypically male and female traits, who chooses to express both to a significant degreed. It's someone who isn't cisgender, but isn't transexual. I figure it's more deliberate than androgynous though - when I say that I'm pretty androgynous I mean that I don't identify strongly with either side, whereas I tend to associate genderqueer feeling a pull towards both sides. Though I could be totally off in that impression.
Wow okay that's too many big thoughts for tonight.

[kerrianna]

The only reason I don't like "genderqueer" is that to me queer is a judgemental word. It suggests that the subject IS out of the norm, and that in fact there is a norm.

I'm referring to myself as Gender-Blended because as much as I feel so strongly a woman inside, I am anatomically a male, will likely stay more or less that way, and have been raised as a male, infused with all the good and bad that comes with that. So I can't see myself becoming a more 'pure' form of gender. I think I'd rather be "twin-spirited" anyway. It seems to offer a lot more avenues and insights into life's mysteries, even if it sometimes confuses the heck out of other people. :heehee: