Labels, labels, labels for everything?

[MoonBaby GG]

[ mood | http://stat.livejournal.com/img/mood/moonsis/stars/purple/pensive_sp.gif contemplative ]

I'm sure I'll be seen as flippant or non-PC to some, but in order to keep my sanity I must have a sense of humor about my life and relationship.

I'm a bi-sexual, genetic woman who enjoys being a woman but also identifies many of my tendencies and behaviors as masculine. My husband is the opposite side of the coin and feels comfortable expressing his inner female through feminine dress and mannerisms. As a man he is everything I dream of and what I asked the Universe to send me. I am grateful to have his companionship/be married and in love with such a giving person.

Although I am reluctant to offer labels at the beginning stages of our journey, I'm not sure how to track it otherwise. We are definitely gender queer and it's going to take a bit of soul searching before we both fully understand what we are dealing with. For instance, if I learn to be at ease with his female form and with the cross dressing, and become attracted to Nicole, does that make me a lesbian trapped in a female body? Would I be fooling around on my husband in this instance? Since I feel manly most of the time and he feels feels like a woman, does that make me a gay man in a female form, or perhaps that makes her a lesbian?

(If you are following this, good for you, and yes, it's a joke because I'm aware it's the same person.)

The whole thing amuses and confuses me and I suppose once the chaos settles down, it'll be enough to be loved by a generous partner.

(FYI: X-Posted to MHB boards for additional thougths/comments)

[ToyGirl]

how are you trapped :p

i do quiz over your choice of pronouns though.

[MoonBaby GG]

how are you trapped :p

i do quiz over your choice of pronouns though.


Maybe in a way it's liberating to be free of certain restrictions? I really do loathe labels and it was more of a joke to have me personally get that *AHA* moment...you know...where I finally let go of my idiotic thinking.

Re: that gender pronoun thing...be patient with me...this such a new game and I find that the rules are confusing...but I'm doing my best to remain open to my new life and positive to change. I don't want to offend anyone but find that my dark sense of humor helps out immensely. :heehee:

[Kate Simmons]

He, she, it. Damn, I get confused at times. You're pretty cool Moonbaby and so is Karen. I got the joke and I feel the same way really. I chalked the whole label thing off long ago and just plain consider myself an enigma--Nuff said. I have a lot of fun with it anyway. Especially when I'm Rich CDing as Sal CDing as Eric:heehee: . Some probably don't understand that concept but you probably do.;) :happy:

[GypsyKaren]

You are a person who is attracted to another person, so forget trying to put a label on each other, they're just words that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Karen

[janedoe311]

Do not worry about labels. It is this mess up society's need to have labels.
Just be you.

Yes I know that are need for labels sometimes but do not cause yourself grief because you do not fit in one. I sure do not look at my avatar!:heehee:

[Kimberley]

Labels :Angry3:

Why do we feel the need to label ourselves? To confine ourselves to some little box that is always 2 sizes too small? Aaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhh!

Welcome aboard Moon Baby. This is just one of my idiosyncracies. There are more of course.

I think we NEED to look at life and love nothing more or less. When we do we start getting all this junk between our ears that spawn whacked ideas. Relish in your relationship. THAT is what counts.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Ms. Donna]

Although I am reluctant to offer labels at the beginning stages of our journey, I'm not sure how to track it otherwise. We are definitely gender queer and it's going to take a bit of soul searching before we both fully understand what we are dealing with.

Ok... Labels... :sigh:

Labels relating to 'orientation' have a tendancy to become unsticky when applied to transpeople and their relationships. Straight, gay, lesbian - these work well enough when all the world's binary. Once you start to queer the binary, all bets are off.

Take my case: my wife is an otherwise heterosexual natal woman, she has no 'gender issues' and has no interest in women from a sexual standpoint. I am male bodied and otherwise non-gendered / genderqueer identified. I am most attracted to people who make a stereotypically feminine presentation, but have found some androgynous / ambiguously gendered individuals very attractive as well. I have only had one relationship in my life: my wife.

While my wife (I'm sure) self-identifies as 'straight' - being partnered to a genderqueer transperson somehow contradicts that. And if asked to describe my 'orientation', I am always at a loss for a label that fits. Do I base it on compatable hardware (sex), gendered attraction, both, neither? I have joked that as I am in a committed relationship, the question is moot: I have no 'orientation' other than to my wife.

If asked to describe our relationship - are we a 'straight' couple: the answer is , "Well, sort of..." We're not lesbians, but somehow 'straight' just doesn't cut it either. I would answer, "We are husband and wife" and leave the rest as an exercise. ;)

I think it's important to realize that whatever labels you choose to attach to yourself or your relationship, you do so solely for your benefit and not the benefit of others. People are going to see what they want to see and they will categorize you as they feel is appropriate. They will not care one bit for whatever label you decide to hang on yourself.

In the end, as Karen said:

You are a person who is attracted to another person, so forget trying to put a label on each other...

Of course, if you really feel you need an identifier for your relationship, I'd follow Helen & Betty's cue and simply describe it as 'queer'...

...Then take each other's hand and walk away.

Regards,
Donna

[Cai]

The whole question of sexual orientation among trans/gender queer people makes me think of a question that was brought up at the TransProm.
"If I'm a man trapped in a woman's body, and I like women, but I also like transguys (who are also men trapped in women's bodies), would that be straight or gay?"

The words just run out sometimes. :heehee:

[Marla S]

Just forget about all these labels.

There are tons of it and more will come. Additionally everybody has its own defintion.

Labels are a waste of time and a mystification, if you take them seriously.
More over, instead of making things more clear, they only bring confusion, divide, might lead to isolation, and very easy become a stigma.

You can spend a life or write a book trying to find the right label for you, but you most likely won't find one that suits you.

We'd better get rid of them.

Man and women, masculine and feminine are the only "lables" needed.

Am I heterosexual ? No, I love women.

Am I transsomething ? No, I am a man with more than usual feminine traits.

Is this lady over there transsexual ? No, she's a women born with the body of a man.

etc.
etc.

We don't need more.

[MoonBaby GG]

If asked to describe our relationship - are we a 'straight' couple: the answer is , "Well, sort of..." We're not lesbians, but somehow 'straight' just doesn't cut it either. I would answer, "We are husband and wife" and leave the rest as an exercise. ;)

I think it's important to realize that whatever labels you choose to attach to yourself or your relationship, you do so solely for your benefit and not the benefit of others. People are going to see what they want to see and they will categorize you as they feel is appropriate. They will not care one bit for whatever label you decide to hang on yourself.

In the end, as Karen said:

Of course, if you really feel you need an identifier for your relationship, I'd follow Helen & Betty's cue and simply describe it as 'queer'...

...Then take each other's hand and walk away.

Regards,
Donna


Thank you everyone for your thoughts. They are always appreciated. I don't get to check the boards and respond as often as I should...but your comments help me sort out the hazy areas located in my brain.

Queer is definitely the way we are headed. I'm more than "cool" with that. Chart a course and full steam ahead because we have been switching off gender identities like mad fools. Over the past month I've felt more like a man than ever before and I'm sure it's the reverse for my partner. Because of the advice and "study materials" (books and msg. boards) ~ I've been able to handle these inconsistencies without flipping out.

I'm sure just as soon as I get used to the situation my partner will want to fully disclose their lifestyle and then I'll have to begin explaining it all over again. Hahaha. :bs:

[The Gas Man Cometh]

I'm a genetic girl as well, and my girlfriend is a transsexual woman.

I have decided that what I feel as a sexual orientation is not bi/gay or straight but 'tranny lover,' as it feels like a fetish and full time obsession for me.
The type of woman I feel most comfortable with.

However, for your situation, it just sounds like to me what I like to call, "gender play."
Your husband is a genetic male, I'm assuming, and you are a genetic female.
But, your gender mannerisms are the other way around, which doesn't change your gender identity.

So really, there doesn't appear to me to be anything to be confused about, then again, maybe I just "get it," a little more easily.

When I have kids with my GF one day, she will be the genetic father, but more motherly and is already more feminine.
And me, I'll be the genetic mother, but more fatherly and masculine.

So, I guess things can just get a little mixed up at times, but I like that structured chaos.

It's good fun!

Erm, well, personally, I find labels help to clarify life. +Shrugs+

I guess that's just me, then.

[Marla S]

Erm, well, personally, I find labels help to clarify life. +Shrugs+

I guess that's just me, then.

Clarification is the intention of labels and they would be useful if they actualy would work like this.

They do actually work i. e. for meds (in particular surgeons). They have a sharp defintion of TS.
Because of that sharp definition they know what they are talking about without long explanations.

First problem arises with the general tendency that people (and meds, and psychologists) try to adjust themselves or others to a label, instead of thinking about what actually matters for the individual.
(I. e. Am I a real CD when I don't doll up to the nines ? Maybe I am TS or even a fetishist ? I probably better doll up to the nines to fit in !)

Second Problem: If it works the other way round and people try to adjust the labels, it ends up that everybody has it's own definition (or tons of new labels). With the consequence that actually nobody really knows anymore what is talked about, despite everybody thinks to know what is talked about, because there is this label. (label becomes meaningless, leads to confusion, and being at cross-purposes)
That's worse than to explain your situation in whole phrases, which probably would add more to clarify your personal situation, for yourself and others.

Third, and main problem in my view is, even if labels are used by persons concerned in a positive, constructive way, they are used as a stigma and a tool of discrimination by the rest of the world (our problems result foremost from the rest of the world).


A gay might use the label gay in a proud way and he might use this word to discuss his issues with friends, but the word gay has a negative connotation for 99 % of the rest of the world
Headlines like "Transvestite (or Transsexual) Robs Bank" don't enhence our reputation, but they are written because there is this label. A label that people are eager to read to fortify their bias about these weird folks. Articles like this are not read because of the robbery, but because of the transvestite (transsexual).

Why CDs and TS usually get the first question:
"Are you gay ?" ... Because labels make it easy for people not involved to stop thinking.
It follows a dialogue like this:
No, I am not gay.
Ahh, then you are a fetishist.
No, I am not a fetishist.
Ok now I got it. You are transsexual.
No, I am not transsexual.
Hm. ??? What are you ?
I am a CD.
Ahhh !!! A transvestite.
Well, not really transvestite, maby not even CD. Probably best described as queer ... or was it semi-queer ?????.
Hmmmmmmmmmm ?????????????? Ok, summing it up: You are gay, but you can't stand by it.
:(

Wouldn't it be better if we just could say what we are.
Men ( or women) with strong feminine ( masculine) tendencies ? (or something more individual)
Wouldn't that clarify much more in a shorter time on a more individual level without stigmatisation ?

I would think so, but I have strange theories from time to time.

[Dasein9]

Labels are tools. They're there to be used when they're helpful, and set aside, clean and in place, when they're not. Hammers are great for driving nails, but they kind of stink for driving screws. Sometimes we use labels that describe us, and then we change and it's time to set the labels aside. You can choose not to use any labels, but that can get cumbersome. Or you can play with labels, and that can be fun, but it's a good idea to keep in mind that most people expect labels to stick.

Okay, now I just want to be silly:

Oh, when we put label, label, labels
On the tranny, tranny, trannies
We find out our foible, foible, foibles
Become many, many, many!

[Marla S]

That is why i wonder if there is such a thing as a third sex not man not woman but both, but you just happen to be in one type of body unless you are a hermaphrodite.
In the bathroom it boils down to two sexes (hermaphrodites excluded). The rest is a question of how to decorate the body to match it to the felt part of the gender spectrum, which is represented by a culture dependend binary style of clothes and decorations.

If you can't stand your body you have to alter it and decorate the altered one. No third sex there.


.... but it's a good idea to keep in mind that most people expect labels to stick.
They don't expect labels to stick, they make them stick.

Probably my rant is because of my counselor (besides other observations, and incidents).
I am not going there because of gender issues. He isn't an expert in this subject anyway (I knew this afore). But it is inevitable that he sees my feminine style. So this subject is brought up sometimes by him and I am doing really hard to convince him that I don't love men and that I don't have a sexual fetish.
He is still not convinced.:Angry3:

He is a good counselor and helped me a lot with other issues, but he sticks, sticks, sticks to LABELS :Angry3::Angry3::Angry3:
If I can't convince him, I think I could make him happy in saying: I am gay and have a sexual fetish for women's clothes.




Okay, now I just want to be silly:

Oh, when we put label, label, labels
On the tranny, tranny, trannies
We find out our foible, foible, foibles
Become many, many, many!

Good one :D

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Clarification is the intention of labels and they would be useful if they actualy would work like this.

They do actually work i. e. for meds (in particular surgeons). They have a sharp defintion of TS.
Because of that sharp definition they know what they are talking about without long explanations.

First problem arises with the general tendency that people (and meds, and psychologists) try to adjust themselves or others to a label, instead of thinking about what actually matters for the individual.
(I. e. Am I a real CD when I don't doll up to the nines ? Maybe I am TS or even a fetishist ? I probably better doll up to the nines to fit in !)

Second Problem: If it works the other way round and people try to adjust the labels, it ends up that everybody has it's own definition (or tons of new labels). With the consequence that actually nobody really knows anymore what is talked about, despite everybody thinks to know what is talked about, because there is this label. (label becomes meaningless, leads to confusion, and being at cross-purposes)
That's worse than to explain your situation in whole phrases, which probably would add more to clarify your personal situation, for yourself and others.

Third, and main problem in my view is, even if labels are used by persons concerned in a positive, constructive way, they are used as a stigma and a tool of discrimination by the rest of the world (our problems result foremost from the rest of the world).


A gay might use the label gay in a proud way and he might use this word to discuss his issues with friends, but the word gay has a negative connotation for 99 % of the rest of the world
Headlines like "Transvestite (or Transsexual) Robs Bank" don't enhence our reputation, but they are written because there is this label. A label that people are eager to read to fortify their bias about these weird folks. Articles like this are not read because of the robbery, but because of the transvestite (transsexual).

Why CDs and TS usually get the first question:
"Are you gay ?" ... Because labels make it easy for people not involved to stop thinking.
It follows a dialogue like this:
No, I am not gay.
Ahh, then you are a fetishist.
No, I am not a fetishist.
Ok now I got it. You are transsexual.
No, I am not transsexual.
Hm. ??? What are you ?
I am a CD.
Ahhh !!! A transvestite.
Well, not really transvestite, maby not even CD. Probably best described as queer ... or was it semi-queer ?????.
Hmmmmmmmmmm ?????????????? Ok, summing it up: You are gay, but you can't stand by it.
:(

Wouldn't it be better if we just could say what we are.
Men ( or women) with strong feminine ( masculine) tendencies ? (or something more individual)
Wouldn't that clarify much more in a shorter time on a more individual level without stigmatisation ?

I would think so, but I have strange theories from time to time.

Words like 'men,' 'women,' and masculine and feminine are labels too, though.

I guess, when I say labels I mean adjectives.

I understand what you mean about the negative connotations, though, but the negativity is not in the adjective itself, but in the meaning behind what another person says.

[chucks]

give up believing in all labels and be happy

[The Gas Man Cometh]

give up believing in all labels and be happy

I'm one who is happy to believe in labels, or, adjectives. Same thing to me.

[Joy Carter]

P someone off and you Will get a label for sure. I have been called a "hater" on this very forum. So no matter how you think your not into labels, your bound to slip up and use one. Like #%*&?. Know what I mean ? LoL:heehee:

[Marla S]

Words like 'men,' 'women,' and masculine and feminine are labels too, though.

I guess, when I say labels I mean adjectives.

I understand what you mean about the negative connotations, though, but the negativity is not in the adjective itself, but in the meaning behind what another person says.
Lets try to get it straight.

Within a subgroup or a finite community labels do make sense to discuss things. But this does only work if the members of the subgroup/community have the same or similar sharp definitions of the labels (i.e. scientists) (can't see that within the TG community).

Labels do make perfectly sense if the subgroup/community wants to segregate itself from the society.
The Mafia, street gangs, the police, millionaires etc. need labels, because the either want to awe or to be seen as elitists.

Sub-culture labels absolutely don't make sense, if it is the aim of the subculture to become a respected and accepted part of the main culture.
We do stand out, that's why we are here, but what we finally want is to "blend in", to get a "normal life", without the fear of being mocked or discriminated.
If that is really our aim (I doubt it sometimes) we should use the labels of the main culture, showing therby that we are a part of it.
These labels are man, woman, masculine and feminine.

If we don't do that we will get a label by the society that wants to segregate from us (a society doesn't want to be faced to its weaknesses --> tries to segregate from everything different). Ironically one that we invented with the intention to join the main culture again (someday).

It's far more easy to say:

Haha, look that crossdresser over there.
than
Haha look that man over there.

It is more easy to say
We don't hire transsexuals.
than
We don't hire women.

etc.

You get the point.

Anyway, it won't work without labels, but they should be wisely choosen, because the effect of a label often thwarts its intention. For the TG folks it does IMO.

[GypsyKaren]

Labels are for clothes and food cans, and I think we already have enough junk stuck on us without our need to be adding anymore.

Karen

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Lets try to get it straight.

Within a subgroup or a finite community labels do make sense to discuss things. But this does only work if the members of the subgroup/community have the same or similar sharp definitions of the labels (i.e. scientists) (can't see that within the TG community).

Labels do make perfectly sense if the subgroup/community wants to segregate itself from the society.
The Mafia, street gangs, the police, millionaires etc. need labels, because the either want to awe or to be seen as elitists.

Sub-culture labels absolutely don't make sense, if it is the aim of the subculture to become a respected and accepted part of the main culture.
We do stand out, that's why we are here, but what we finally want is to "blend in", to get a "normal life", without the fear of being mocked or discriminated.
If that is really our aim (I doubt it sometimes) we should use the labels of the main culture, showing therby that we are a part of it.
These labels are man, woman, masculine and feminine.

If we don't do that we will get a label by the society that wants to segregate from us (a society doesn't want to be faced to its weaknesses --> tries to segregate from everything different). Ironically one that we invented with the intention to join the main culture again (someday).

It's far more easy to say:

Haha, look that crossdresser over there.
than
Haha look that man over there.

It is more easy to say
We don't hire transsexuals.
than
We don't hire women.

etc.

You get the point.

Anyway, it won't work without labels, but they should be wisely choosen, because the effect of a label often thwarts its intention. For the TG folks it does IMO.


Now I get your point!!

And I agree with said point. Okay, thanks for the clarification. ^_^

[Siobhan Marie]

Labels are for clothes and food cans, and I think we already have enough junk stuck on us without our need to be adding anymore.

:iagree: with Karen as she really does "hit the nail on the head" on this.

:hugs: Anna x

[Ms. Donna]

Words like 'men,' 'women,' and masculine and feminine are labels too, though.

I guess, when I say labels I mean adjectives.

I understand what you mean about the negative connotations, though, but the negativity is not in the adjective itself, but in the meaning behind what another person says.

As adjectives - descriptives or modifiers - they are useful. The problem is when we attempt to adopt these descriptives as identities. For example: crossdressing is an activity - something I happen to do for various and sundry reasons. To identify as a 'crossdresser' - to me - is like identifying as a 'reader', a 'walker', a 'thinker' or a 'breather'. All are things I do, but none are what I am.

I know that there is no one label which is going to be appropriate for me - no single all-inclusive identifier. How could there be for anyone - trans or otherwise? I have adopted the attitude that I'll stand with whichever group is appropriate at the time. Sometimes that's as a crossdresser - sometimes as a transsexual - sometimes as genderqueer - sometimes as transgender - and even as a woman or man at times. And sometimes I'll stand with mutually exclusive groups at the same time.

All of these speak to some aspect of my person, none of them qualifies (for me) as an identity. And while I will use 'trans / genderqueer' as a shorthand for how I identify; it is a compromise at best -
only having any real meaning to me alone.

Who we are - as living beings - is far too complex to be distilled down to any single identifier.

Regards,
Donna

[The Gas Man Cometh]

As adjectives - descriptives or modifiers - they are useful. The problem is when we attempt to adopt these descriptives as identities. For example: crossdressing is an activity - something I happen to do for various and sundry reasons. To identify as a 'crossdresser' - to me - is like identifying as a 'reader', a 'walker', a 'thinker' or a 'breather'. All are things I do, but none are what I am.

I know that there is no one label which is going to be appropriate for me - no single all-inclusive identifier. How could there be for anyone - trans or otherwise? I have adopted the attitude that I'll stand with whichever group is appropriate at the time. Sometimes that's as a crossdresser - sometimes as a transsexual - sometimes as genderqueer - sometimes as transgender - and even as a woman or man at times. And sometimes I'll stand with mutually exclusive groups at the same time.

All of these speak to some aspect of my person, none of them qualifies (for me) as an identity. And while I will use 'trans / genderqueer' as a shorthand for how I identify; it is a compromise at best -
only having any real meaning to me alone.

Who we are - as living beings - is far too complex to be distilled down to any single identifier.

Regards,
Donna


I understand that, and I do feel the same way. That 'labels' describe parts of my personality, but can't really be who I am entirely.

I know that everyone is a huge mix of many many many different labels and adjectives. =)

[ReineD]

This is from Wikipedia:

Pomosexual: A combination of pomo- (shorthand for postmodern), and -sexual (suggesting a sexual preference or orientation). The term itself is oxymoronic since it is descriptive of persons who do not identify with any specific classification of sexuality, and is used in reference to oneself as a protest against such labels.

Reine

[The Gas Man Cometh]

This is from Wikipedia:

Pomosexual: A combination of pomo- (shorthand for postmodern), and -sexual (suggesting a sexual preference or orientation). The term itself is oxymoronic since it is descriptive of persons who do not identify with any specific classification of sexuality, and is used in reference to oneself as a protest against such labels.

Reine

That's so interesting. And funny, "I have no label! I'M POMOSEXUAL!"

+Giggles+

[April410]

I've actualy grown very fond of labels. For the last month , I felt like I was lost in a incohorent limbo. Nothing that I knew of myself seemed to hold validity anymore and what I was learning and feeling just seemed to be an assault of toal inchoren,unfamiliar, nonsense.
But after examing closely the expiernce of these feelings and even more closely any and every aspect of gender and transexualism I could lay my eyes on ,some of the general confusion has disspitated and I've been left with beautifuly ridged understanding ,and a terminology to began communicating, if only to myself where I'm going and where I've been. SO , to practice my new state of being I'd really like to share with you all on this thread , my labels.
I am a transexual female. This means that at some point in my fetal devlopement the y chromosome I recieved had it's power to deviate the the fetus from it's x "fullfilment baulked. The result a split body/brain. My bodiywent on he masculine "y"trip", my brain on a feminine "x"trip...and the twain don't meet.
I'am bisexual. Boy was i confused about the whole sexuality thing, I still am , less about what am I but more along the lines of so what do I do with it?
lucky I ve come across some Gender brain research that gave me the definitive rational I needed to finaly embrace the label of Bisexuality. It sems that "x" brains are organized in a faashion that really does allow for an atrraction and satisfaction "sexually with either there own sex, fellow X's , and the opposite sex X's with "y's " attached. I'm bi-sexual because my Brain is a feminine X brain.
I'm not transgender...I have one "gender" it's female, well at least my brain is!
I don't crossdress any longer... I'm not a transvestite , most likely never was,,
Anyways my point is that those lovely new labels ... Bi-sexual transgender female have really come through for me as a life buoy in a pretty rough sea and as words for a new lexicon. But I still feel like a weenie for needing them so!
take care y'all
Robert/April
A transexual female who if not joyfyully going into the unknown is at least whistling a brighter tune.:thumbsup:

[melissaK]

For about $15.00 you can buy a really good label maker down at Target or Office Depot. Then you can label yourself based upon your mood of the day!

And Moonbaby, your avatar is a rose - was that on porpose? A rose by any other name still smells as sweet . . .

[sammie]

Hi,I am new to this site and wanted to reply to the thread on labels,not quite knowing how to go about doing this,i used yr quick reply botton.tks... My own experience with lables started when my mother discovered my stash of lingerie under my mattress when i was 6.So i knew she put a label on me at that moment of discovery,even though i did not ever know,and still don't. What i am trying to say is that labels will always be a way to seperate all the parts of the world so everyone can make there own judgements.Good and bad.All we can do as people who love fem. is show others how we handle the world by our love for one another even when it may hurt.