case study

[kittypw GG]

This is an atempt to portray a possible CD vs SO situation. Please be objective in your observations if you wish to respond. This is an exercise to possibly bring some insight into where each person is comming from and how to find some common ground. Neither side is good or bad.

CD: When not crossdressing the cd is moody, introverted, quick to anger, not talkative. Personal human interaction is replaced with surfing the internet. When the cd has free time to spend with the SO and if crossdressing is not suggested, the CD finds some activity that does not include their SO and seldom suggests activities that do not involve crossdressing. The CD seems to have no interest in suggested activities like going to a movie or junk shopping unless the focus is on finding dresses or shoes for themselves. The CD only reluctantly participates in activities that the SO finds important or are obligations to family or friends such as weddings, annaversaries etc. Get togethers with work friends is not very important but the CD will go reluctantly and bring it up as a proof that he participates in the SO's life. The CD feels that the SO controls the crossdressing because the SO's participation is crucial in the eyes of the CD.

SO: When not crossdressing the SO is trying to fill free time with activities that promote friendship and create memories for the CD and the SO to share. Family and friend obligations fall to the SO to arrange and place on a calander. The SO tries to find time to interact with friends and wishes desperately that the CD will also interact and develope friendships with non CD people. When interaction wth CD couples arrises the SO participates willingly. The SO is enthusiastic about participating in the crossdressing and even accompanies the CD to outings with other CD's in different situations. (halloween party, dinner at a mainstream resturant, and clubbing). Over time when the SO feels that the enthusiasim for non-cd activities is less than she puts out for cd activities the SO becomes hurt and angry that the enthusiasim is not reciprocated and starts to slow down the participation in cd activities. The SO starts to feel like an object only necessary when fullfilling the CD's desires.

Questions to ponder:

How do the CD and the SO find some common ground?

If the SO understands how important crossdressing is to the CD, how does the SO convey to the CD that all of the other things in thier life are equally as important to the SO?

Will the CD always consider it as a form of control over the CD by the SO?

If caring and enthusiasim are not forthcomming from the CD for activities that are important to the SO how will the SO ever shed the feeling of being an object?

Is it possible for the CD/SO couple to have a sucessful partnership and maintain the current attitudes given in the senarios?

This is an exercise to attempt to gain empathy and understanding for each point of view. I think that many CD couples can relate to this thread so please respond objectivly so that others main gain some higher understanding about where their spouses are comming from. I thank you all in advance for your insightful responses. :hugs: Kitty

[JoanFlores]

I have found your words to be very close to my situation. Yes, my SO does plan our activities for us. Yes, my SO wishes that I be happy, but is at this time not very open to give me the freedom to CD as I need to do.

The only common ground at this time are activities like visiting family, buying groceries and being together, but not while I am CD.

She knows that CD is important to me, but does not want to discuse it with me, so I have to make do by myself.

As I stated, you have some very good points on how we(CD) thinks, I will spend the day pondering more on your questions, I am a little happy and sad, but, and wil continue trying to help my SO to better understand me.

[battybattybats]

Hmmm interesting.


If the SO understands how important crossdressing is to the CD, how does the SO convey to the CD that all of the other things in thier life are equally as important to the SO?

I'd suggest direct plain cut-to-the-point statements. Also, ask 'why' (tone is crucial when it's done though). Perhaps even frame it in a 'talking about your emotions is a feminine thing to do' discussion to help them learn to slowly open up. Many guys (skirts notwithstanding) are thoroughly emotionally repressed and have very little emotional vocabulary or self-awareness so that might be a slow process.

One thing I find is that when forced to hold my tongue about dressing or have to repress myself the last thing in the world that I'd want to do is go near womens clothing departments/stores. It's just too painful. Sort of like making a diabetic help shop for sweets. Lots of social events can be a nasty and cruel reminder of what I'm locked away from too and withdrawing, isolating oneself is sometimes the only way to cope.

The CD may feel less controlled if things are put as requests rather than demands. An appeal to fairness would probably work if it appeals to the notion of an opt-in bargain or trade. Like 'I'll go to this with you if you go to that with me' but not 'I went to that with you so you should want to go to this with me'.

[Leah B]

One thing I find is that when forced to hold my tongue about dressing or have to repress myself the last thing in the world that I'd want to do is go near womens clothing departments/stores. It's just too painful. Sort of like making a diabetic help shop for sweets.

Even worse, it can be hard to be out and about around women sometimes for the same reason. I remember this customer that came into the restaurant wearing the most beautiful sundress and it just made me bitter that I couldn't.

[Mitch23]

It seems to me that the CD is controlling the relationship by using crossdressing as an emotional battering ram. His life is ruled by his activities and he expects others to toe the line. I think that it has become a life fetish and he probably needs to get some kind of therapy in order to add balance to his life.

Its probably a danger that many of us face and i can certainly recognise elements in me.

mitch

[susie evans]

these are intresting points cd/so relations are like many others and are also more sensetive and a veriaty of things come to play honesty, the cd and so have to be open minded with each other NO single focused agendas ,balance has to be achieved respect, and very good communications learn to listen to each other and be sensetive and thoughtfull of the other person when they are trying to talk about important subjects to them family is the key to most GG'S as should be to most people with out them we have very little this has worked pretty good for me for the last 35 years :hugs:

susie

[kittypw GG]

Hmmm interesting.



I'd suggest direct plain cut-to-the-point statements. Also, ask 'why' (tone is crucial when it's done though). Perhaps even frame it in a 'talking about your emotions is a feminine thing to do' discussion to help them learn to slowly open up. Many guys (skirts notwithstanding) are thoroughly emotionally repressed and have very little emotional vocabulary or self-awareness so that might be a slow process.

One thing I find is that when forced to hold my tongue about dressing or have to repress myself the last thing in the world that I'd want to do is go near womens clothing departments/stores. It's just too painful. Sort of like making a diabetic help shop for sweets. Lots of social events can be a nasty and cruel reminder of what I'm locked away from too and withdrawing, isolating oneself is sometimes the only way to cope.

The CD may feel less controlled if things are put as requests rather than demands. An appeal to fairness would probably work if it appeals to the notion of an opt-in bargain or trade. Like 'I'll go to this with you if you go to that with me' but not 'I went to that with you so you should want to go to this with me'.


You bring up some good points. The diabetic analogy is a good one. The oposite could be true for the SO. The crossdressing becomes the object of disdain because the SO feels forced to put the emphasis on the crossdressing over her own desires to socialize and participate in family activities and obligations. By isolating himself the CD is performing a passive agressive form of punishment in the eyes of the SO.

I am guilty of the "I went to that with you so you should want to go to this with me" statment. Us SO's really don't want to control our partners. We do things that we don't like willingly without dramma and bad body language and figure that if our spouses love us they will return the favor. I personally want a partner not a person that I control or mother.

I whole heartedly agree with your first statement that tone of voice can make or break any conversation. The crossdressing issue is such an emotional one for both parties that it is sort of hard to remain calm and maintain an agreeable tone of voice. Things can degrage in an instant as we all know. I also agree with the statement that men don't really have the emotional vocabulary with which to express their feelings. So's can understand that especially if they seem to attempt to express their feelings without yelling or becoming emotional. I think that dramma and arguments are the alternative for a person who finds it difficult to verbally express their feelings.

Good stuff so far. I not only hope that this discussion will help me but many others as well. Anyone else have any thoughts? :hugs: Kitty

[jenniferj]

Wowsers! Do I dare jump in?

You have asked for objectivity, but you have presented only half of the story. How would he/she describe the problem? Obviously you are hurting - and angry - and more confused than you probably realize. I don't see a single positive reference to your SO in the writeup - surely there is something special and nice about him (and her) that makes you want to be together?

My guess is that you are tremendously good sport who grits her teeth and participates willingly in something she doesn't like very much. But I am sensing that you also do it "from a distance" and let the SO know in subtle (or maybe not so subtle) ways that she "owes you" for it. So the times you spend with her are perhaps less satifying for her, in that they don't offer the relief and comfort and acceptance she most probably is seeking. And those same times are less satisfying for you, because at some level you think you should be building "points" for times in which he to do what you want. At some level she probably resents this, and it carries through in his sulleness and isolation. Wow - is that deep or what?

There are two (or more) ways to solve the problem - the simple way is to create some sort of mutual scoring system that you can both agree to. You get five points for taking her shopping at Vickies, and he gets 3 points for spending an evening with your sister and obnoxious brother-in-law. The negotiations for point values could be a lot of fun. At the end of the month you balance the accounts, and at some (superficial) level, you both feel that your needs have been fairly met. A lot of long term, happy marriages are based on such barter systems, with any number of different issues being negotiated.

A deeper (and probably more satisfying) solution would be based on a commitment to understanding and acceptance. This one is much, much harder and much,much,much less common. You can read a large number of threads in this forum about disapproving and deceived wives, but there are also a few truely wonderful storys of love and happiness. Whether you two can achieve the latter state is entirely up to each of you as well as both of you together. He/she must overcome the selfish and self-centered attitudes that seem inherent to CDs (there are hundreds of justifiable reasons for this trait, but it is clearly rampant among us - just read the forum :) ). You must overcome the cultural (and probably sexual) expectations of a "perfect" husband. And you need to trust each other, without judgement. Simple enough?

Hopefully, you'll succeed togther and in the future you'll look back at some incident and not be able to remember whether she was dressed or he wasn't when it happened.

I wish you two the very best - I love to read the happy stories!

jj

[jenniferj]

A second thought, if I may.

In case I seemed judgemental about GG SOs who don't completely understand and accept their CD guys, I didn't me to be. It is a very difficult concept to embrace.

If you look at the many threads in the forum about almost getting caught or how to hide what we do, it is clear that many of us CD guys don't understand and completely accept ourselves either.

Please be gentle and kind - most of us are hurting more than we let on.

jj

[kittypw GG]

Jennifer,
I was attempting to portray a situation that many SO's of CD's find themselves in. This is not my story alone. I am attemting to gain some insight from CD's and to hopefully lend some understanding of the thoughts and feelings of a SO.

You don't know me but let me tell you you couldn't be farther from the truth about me being a "good sport". I try to have fun in every situation that I find myself in. I am a people person and can find some common ground with just about anyone.

I do sort of like your scoring card suggestion as a means to put "perceptions" about the lack of participation in the others interest to rest. I might use it as a learning tool rather than a life philosophy though.
Thanks for your comments
Kitty

[Stephenie S]

OMG Kitty, my immediate thought is no, this will never work. There is just no hint of cooperation from the CDer. Marriage is a compromise and without compromise you will never get it to work at all. My quick judgment of this relationship is that it's headed down the road to disolution, bigtime. So no, it's not possible for this CD/SO coouple to have a sucessful partnership if the current attitudes are maintained.

And there's the key, right there. It looks to me like you are the managing director of this situation, and I would say that if you can lay down the law, i.e. provide a framework that demands an equal participation from both parties, you may be able to save it. Although you may not want to do it, it may be time for those words we all dread, "It's my way or the highway". At the present time it seems that those are the words you are receiving from the CDer even though they are not really being spoken, only acted.

I think that CDing is not relevant to this issue at all. This is just a very one-sided selfish relationship and it can't work this way. Substitute my favorite, "fishing" for CDing and you have described a fishing fanatic who is working hard to destroy his marriage. Substitute any activity that you want here, and taken to the extreme you describe, with the thoughtlessness and inconsideration you describe, and you have a picture of someone hell bent on dissoving a relationship. This is not to say some relationships do work under these conditions. We have all heard of the "fishing widow", and I know one couple were the husband is a policeman, and I truly don't know if the man even exists. In the 10 years I have known them, I have NEVER even seen him. He is always on the job, or training, or hanging out with his buds, or, if home, he's sleeping. He could be immaginary for all I know, except that he has fathered two children. I know another couple in which the man builds Kentucky long rifles for a hobby and I never see him either except at meal times.

I think that waiting for Mr CDer to fix his behavior here is a lost cause. Unless you are able to set some rules, and rules with teeth, I don't see how this will work. Perhaps the threat of absolute refusal to alow ANY CDing at all in return for FULL participation in the relationship would work, but it's a little late to hold out much hope. As I said, I think CDing is a non issue here. It's the refusal to participate in a relationship that's that's causing the trouble here. Fix that, and the CDing won't matter.

JMHO dear,

Stephenie

[Karren H]

God... I'd hate to have that life... Sounds more like crossdressing isn't the whole problem... In my opinion..

I think the CD should figure out if he got married and had a family for a reason... And if it still holds true then its the family first and he needs to learn to work his crossdressing around the needs of the family not make them suffer because of it.. In my opinion..

Karren

[kittypw GG]

As I said, I think CDing is a non issue here. It's the refusal to participate in a relationship that's that's causing the trouble here. Fix that, and the CDing won't matter.

JMHO dear,

Stephenie

Stephanie, this is the head of the nail. Where does this come from?

Behind many total narcissist you will find an overbearing, enabeling, do everything for and give everything to her kids mother. When parents do this to their children they grow up lacking the skills it takes to gain balance, have empathy for others and give of themselves. They grow up with a false perception of their importance in the world at large. They have trouble expressing themselves, they have very little self confidence because they never needed to, mom did everything, and they have very low self esteem.

Just because you grow up this way does not mean that you can't change, it just takes some work because most of us learned these skills as we were growing up. My own mother tried to make us dependant on her but with my personality I just couldn't allow that to happen. My sister is a victim though and and has trouble being independent to this day and she has a PhD.

Self acceptance and balance is something that I feel strongly about. You can't give that to someone though so what does a SO do in the mean time. Do you throw in the towel? Do you keep trying to be heard until you finally wear out? It is a matter of empathizing with your partner, giving , receiving love, sharing a life but staying true to yourself. :hugs: Kitty

[jenniferj]

Kitty,

Oh dear - I fear I've offended you. That was the farthest thing from my intentions! I meant the "good sport" in a very positive way; if this is indeed your personal story, it seems that you are very generous and giving person. I would certainly love to have you as a friend, no matter how I'm dressed.

I do hear some frustration or anger in your description of the situation, and I understand why that would be so. As described, he doesn't seem like much fun to be with. Is he happier as she? Is she happy with herself dressed, or does she wish she had more hair, or could shave, or had real breasts, or whatever? Does she want/need more girl time? Would she be happier 24/7?

I'm not suggesting this as a solution, but rather as an avenue to understanding. If she wants more time, but can't have it - what is the constraining factor?

Here are lots of other things I don't know:

Is your involvement something recent after years of hiding and repression on his part? How old is he? how long has he been dressing? Is he just going through the "pink haze" phase? I love that term - I read it someplace here, but don't know whom to credit for it.

How did you find out? Does he feel guilty about the girl time, and how it affects you? There is a lot of potential for self-loathing in this activity; is he transferring his own feelings of confusion onto you?

How long has this been a problem? Weeks, months, years, decades? It may just take some time (probably longer that we'd expect) for it to find its level.

One more thought. Are you reasonably sure that the excessive crossdressing is the cause of the problem and not the result of something else entirely? Dressing up as somebody else is an awfully good way to avoid other problems in your life. I'm not suggesting that he is a crossdresser because of some traumatic event or problem, but rather that it's any easy place to hide when other things are bothering him.

Please, please, please accept my good wishes and admiration. My favorite person in the whole world is still having trouble with the same issues, and she has had decades to adjust.

jj

[Carin's Wife GG]

Wowsers! Do I dare jump in?

<snip>

saved me a huge long post. Thank you!


Louise.

[VeronicaKate]

Wow, I think that the CD needs to slow down and rember they are a very lucky individual to be loved and understood by their SO, not many CD are as fortunate. If CD is takeing up that much space running through the sysnapses, CD may want to revisit who realy matters. Maybe even find some type of counseling to get her behavior under control. Marriage and relationships are based on love, trust, understanding, and a lot of compromise on both sides.

[Carin's Wife GG]

This is an atempt to portray a possible CD vs SO situation. Please be objective in your observations if you wish to respond. This is an exercise to possibly bring some insight into where each person is comming from and how to find some common ground. Neither side is good or bad.

is there bitterness on the part of the SO? If so that is palpable to the CDer without the SO or the CDer even consciously knowing it and a deathknell for future understanding IMO.


the CDer sounds like a most selfish human being and the SO the long suffering martyr. Not exactly balanced and so it is unfair to ask for an objective response. The original post is not objective in ANY way.


Louise.

[kittypw GG]

Wow Louise I didn't expect to see another gg being so negative. One would think that you would have a sympathetic pov. I asked for objectivity but maybe I should have asked for people to not be mean. I know for a fact that many SO's of CD's have expirenced this situation. I thought that there could be an honest discussion about how the cd might feel controlled by the so and how the so might feel shut out and used by the cd. I thought that perhaps it might help some of us come to a better understanding. I understand that you have a great and wonderful relationsip with your hubby but you don't have to be hurtful to others who may not have that in their relationship.
Kitty

[wifeofsissy GG]

I read bitterness and anger from kitty's original post. Of course not all situation are the same. I've been with my husband for almost 2 decades and although I new for almost the whole time, I choose to "reject it" and "control him". 3 years ago, after sitting together and without pointing fingers and blame, asked of course millions of questions and I realized the "hell & agony" I had been putting him tru by not letting him be "himself".

We than started to "play" together. My husband is very comfortable in he's sexuality and mostly does it as a "fetish". I trust him and I'm soo in love with him. I KNOW this as brought us closer to each other. We have fun together. I love him as a husband and "en femme". I love his feminity when he dresses. I ENJOY it. I buy things for her, give her pointer's:tongueout

I give him the freedom that he needs. We have kids, and strongly beleive it is between the two of us and no one else's. That said, sometimes it makes it difficult for us to "play together" so I make sure I go out for an afternoon and take the kids with me while I leave him at home and he can dress. I always give him the time we will get back, so there's no risk in "getting caught" OR we make plans just the 2 of us for a weekend get away in another city......very exciting!! We also do it at night while the kids are sleeping. I also go away for 2 weeks in the summer with the kids and make sure it's during he's "days off" so if he wants to, he can stay dressed all day!! We have a very strong relationship and communicate a lot.

I beleive lots of GG's are doing it to "please" their CD husband and it creates lots of anger and bitterness. I do it cause I ENJOY it. I don't believe love keeps tab's: I did it for you, you do it for me. It's not fair to make someone do and be someone they are not. There's lots of things my husband don't enjoy and I do. We do things "alone" and "together", dressed or not. Life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, if you cannot "forgive""forget" and move on , than "move out". I'm not saying this applies to you cause I don't know your situation. But that's my opinion. Life is too short to be angry and bitter and that's what this post sounds like to me.

Sincerely,
Wifeofsissy GG

[MJ]

i think kitty is trying to come up with a common ground. so we can all understand how to deal with CD issues , it must be the hardest thing a woman as to deal with , then when she give us an inch we take a mile and can't understand why our S.O are upset
it must be painful for the wife to see her man in a dress or understand why he wants to go out en femme even worse want the S.O to go out with them and do this almost over night
what if your S.O wanted to dress as a guy ? try making love with the thought of making out with a guy in your head how would you feel then ..
we need to find balance and understanding how can we do that if all we do is take take take .. there as to be some give as well

[Carin's Wife GG]

I read bitterness and anger. Of course not all situation are the same.

I agree and did not mean to be mean in my responses.


Wow Louise I didn't expect to see another gg being so negative.

I have been the long suffering martyr in the past. carin has been the withdrawn, everything revolves around CDing husband. I KNOW this story. I have lived it! I was trying to be honest not hurtful and for that I apologize.



Louise.

[kittypw GG]

I beleive lots of GG's are doing it to "please" their CD husband and it creates lots of anger and bitterness. I do it cause I ENJOY it. I don't believe love keeps tab's: I did it for you, you do it for me. It's not fair to make someone do and be someone they are not. There's lots of things my husband don't enjoy and I do. We do things "alone" and "together", dressed or not. Life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, if you cannot "forgive""forget" and move on , than "move out". I'm not saying this applies to you cause I don't know your situation. But that's my opinion. Life is too short to be angry and bitter and that's what this post sounds like to me.

Sincerely,
Wifeofsissy GG


You make a good point, doing something you don't enjoy does cause bitterness and anger. I myself enjoy my hubby's cd'ing I just don't want to enjoy it as often as he does. My hubby is also free to cd at his leasure since he is mostly at home all day alone. He does the laundry so I would never know if he is taking advantage of his freedom or how often.

Both people in the relationship have to meet somewhere in the middle.
What is the key thing to understand about eachother to get to a point of mutual sastifaction do you think?

I think communication is paramount. Doing the isolation thing only lends for misunderstand and misinterpretation of the reasons behind it. Just a thought.
:hugs: Kitty

[AmberTG]

I personally think that Stephenie may be the closest to this situation. It is the obsession with doing what you want and ignoring the desires of the other person that causes most of the problems, in my opinion. I personally know 2 men who ended up divorced because they would rather spend time working on their model railroad then spending time with their wife. When anything becomes an obsession, you better hope that your SO shares the enthusiasm for that activity or you'll be heading down a one way street to being alone, unless you can step back from it and realise that your SO didn't marry you to be alone. I know this from personal experience, I killed my first marriage that way, she wanted me to partisipate in some of her outdoor activitys, but I was too busy to take the time to be with her. She was lonely for a long time and finally found someone else to share her activitys with. My fault! that was 10 years ago and it still is a regret for me. It certainly wouldn't have hurt me to take some time and go for a walk in the woods with her, but I was too wrapped up in my workaholic nature, and my long standing depression that I didn't know was depression.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[Kate Simmons]

This whole thing can become a ravaging monster if not checked. It becomes a power struggle where there are no winners and which leaves both partners with hurt and bitterness. Trust me, I know. I have to cite what Karren brought up. Why did the CDer get married to begin with and possibly have a family if he did not want to share his life with his SO? Obviously, he loved her of course, probably very much so the way a man loves a woman. A man, however, with conflicting feelings and emotions that co-erce him to act on those feelings in a very demonstrative way with no deference to the feelings of his beloved SO.
This society is indeed a tough one. Men are supposed to be strong, confident and self-assured. This is a lot of pressure sometimes and while most of us do enjoy being a man and everything that goes along with it, our softer feelings come up and are very hard to deal with sometimes because we are supposed to be "tough guys". Yeah, right! I cry more at weddings and sad movies than my wife ever did and get very emotional.I cried for joy with my wife when all our babies were born and I mourned with her when she lost one. This was a true partnership and those years and times are golden to me.
Still, undrneath it all, there is a nagging feeling that we, personally, are not complete. I think some of us are born this way or at least pre-disposed to it and maybe childhood enhances it and we get envious that girls seem to be treated preferentially and we wanted the same thing. I felt that way and there was no way you were going to knock that out of my head. So, why get married? Quite simple really, she was a woman, I was a man, seems simple enough, for most people anyway.
When I first came out to her two years after we were married, we had a lot of discussions. She tried to convince me that there is nothing "glamouous" about being a woman no doubt with the physiological effects in mind but I just couldn't see it. All I could see was the "glitter" and prettiness of it which merely adorn the body of a person with a beautiful spirit. Most of us unknowingly want to emulate that spirit but all our obvious physical efforts pale in comparison at best.
Back to Kitty's topic, we know what the issues are and we are a couple. We love each other and want to make this work, despite the fact that it does not appear to be "normal". We need to talk to each other, work with each other. We are obligated to think of the other person and not just ourselves, especially if we are in a committed relationship and most especially if we have a family. It's not about "me", its about "we". Love and mutual respect goes a long way and certainly covers a multitude of sins. I know I preach a lot about respecting one another for the person we are inside and it's no different here, more so in a relationship.
It all looks good on paper, my friends. When we get down the nitty gritty raw bones things that motivate us to do what we do, do we pass muster? Does it really work? That is what shows who we truely are as a person and what is really in our hearts. The whole is truely greater than the sum of it's parts in this case. The results depend on us and our sincere loving efforts.:happy:

[Carin's Wife GG]

I personally think that Stephenie may be the closest to this situation. It is the obsession with doing what you want and ignoring the desires of the other person that causes most of the problems, in my opinion. I personally know 2 men who ended up divorced because they would rather spend time working on their model railroad then spending time with their wife. When anything becomes an obsession, you better hope that your SO shares the enthusiasm for that activity or you'll be heading down a one way street to being alone, unless you can step back from it and realise that your SO didn't marry you to be alone. I know this from personal experience, I killed my first marriage that way, she wanted me to partisipate in some of her outdoor activitys, but I was too busy to take the time to be with her. She was lonely for a long time and finally found someone else to share her activitys with. My fault! that was 10 years ago and it still is a regret for me. It certainly wouldn't have hurt me to take some time and go for a walk in the woods with her, but I was too wrapped up in my workaholic nature, and my long standing depression that I didn't know was depression.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

when the TG/CDer has a partner that is not fully on board and is trying to control the CDing situation. I know this because I was this!


Louise.

[kittypw GG]

when the TG/CDer has a partner that is not fully on board and is trying to control the CDing situation. I know this because I was this!


Louise.

Oh but Louise who is controlling who? There are two sides to every coin. If a partner is ok with the cd'ing but doesn't want a steady diet of it, and gives the ok for them to dress when they are home alone whenever they feel like it and if the CD still resents the SO for their lack of participation then, isn't the CD being unreasonable and somewhat controlling himself? I guess that if my hubby came up to me and explained that it would mean a lot for me to participate on any given night I would probably oblige him. But if he just quitely resents me for not participating then his anguish is of his own doing. I see this very thing happening a lot. Instead of really talking to their partners, the CD quietly resents his situation accuses their partner of being unaccepting and isolates himself. The SO feels resentful, about being shut out of her hubby's life and crossdressing easily gets blamed there by causing them to not want to participate. In my own head I guess I keep comming back to communication, and mutual respect for eachother.

Thanks for the appology by the way, I don't hold grudges and everyone is entitled to their own opinion it is hard to tell sometimes what people intend to convey when you don't have the benifit of body language and a real time conversation. :hugs: Kitty

[NatalieBliss]

A little background before I answer questions. I have never had a girlfriend that knew about my crossdressing. Though I did some (at her request) with a girlfriend in high school. Excited then scared, asked to stop.
I love going shopping when asked, but always through a bit of "huff" as to cover my tracks. I was reluctant to do things with my last girlfriends family and some of her interest but I think that was mainly due to being a selfish jack-ass at the time, not related to CDing. Anyway thought that might help put my answers in perspective...

How do the CD and SO find common ground?
I don't know if common ground is any different to find than with a non-CD, and if I knew that I probably wouldn't be single right now.. :D

If the SO understands how important crossdressing is to the CD, how does the SO convey to the CD that all of the other things in thier life are equally as important to the SO?
This is a tricky one. All I got is "I love sharing CDing with you, and I would love it if we shared some of these other things too"

Will the CD always consider it as a form of control over the CD by the SO?
I could see it being easy for a CDer who came out after the relationship got serious to feel that their CDing is only allowed at the whim of the SO.

If caring and enthusiasim are not forthcomming from the CD for activities that are important to the SO how will the SO ever shed the feeling of being an object?
I don't think everything needs caring and enthusiasim from the other person. I also don't think that is what you where saying. If all that is in common is each other then there isn't much there in my opinion.

Is it possible for the CD/SO couple to have a sucessful partnership and maintain the current attitudes given in the senarios?

Well in the given senario the SO seems like she as becoming miserable so, no I don't thing that is or the makings of a successful partnership. The CD is kind of a jerk/bitch and the SO seems perfect. Though I don't doubt those relationships exist, I just wanted to point that out somewhere.

[Fab Karen]

The CD in this situation might possibly be helped by talking with a therapist to get a clear understanding of what the crossdressing means to them- not necessarily in this case, but some CD's wish to live 24/7, without going the route of hormones & surgery. Complete disinterest in anything not involved with CD'ing indicates something is going on that needs investigation.
Couples therapy would be helpful for both in the relationship, to work on communication & some kind of compromise if possible. The SO's passive-aggressive response indicates that some communication is lacking on both sides.

[rose382832]

i feel that the cd is acting like a spoiled child and either needs to be spanked or needs to seek therapy or counseling. if he cannot live with the the relationship where she helps him then he is not adult enough to be in a relationship and should go back to wearing diapers and having mom take care of him.life is for sharing, not just what you want but what also what your partner wants ( also your boss and your freinds.)

[Kerry Owens]

I realize now I'm not alone in saying wow! This is a great discussion, Lawren and I already are talking about some of the things I've wondered about, and thank you for bringing this up and the honesty I've read in here.

[Josephine 1941]

Hi

I agree with Stephiene too. The arangements that we CDs get our self into is tough enough. I THANK GOD I am in a different situation my SO thinks I don't dress enough. The CD in question is like a little kid, [ if I don't get to dress ,go shoping , clubing with my girl friends I will hold my breath until I turn blue]. If you are married an your SO will do all those types of things that you like, you better kiss her you know what. If you are willing to let her go, put her name an adress on here an start the bidding you have a CDers gold mine. I have one an I will tell you I go to concerts, plays her friends homes, we have a pact that if there is any one that she thinks should know we have a signal or I we will talk about it first in privite an then go with the flow. If this is a case study I feel sad for the SO an would like to hold her an tell her she is a great girl. I let my SO know all the time how much I appreatate all aspecks of her life.


Josephine

[SandyR]

Kitty,

If I miss more then a few days working out, well I get grumpy, miss meeting the boys for shooting, etc. But on the same hand I get grumpy when my wife and I don't get a chance to be with each other, going out to dinner, camping hanging out at the mall. Sometimes I get a bit carried away with CD'ing, or working out, or hanging with the boys, even my wife and I reach a point where we both need our space. To me, Family comes first, then work, keeping the house clean....................and on.

Just my thoughts.

Kisses.

SandyR

[Holly]

Well, I'll give this a shot. First of all, for those of you who don't know, I am married to a most wonderful lady. I self-impose some restrictions on my CDing, not because she asked me to but because I love her and I know some things would make her uncomfortable. But then again, that's true of many other non-CDing activities as well, so point number one would be that CDing is not the issue but a symptom of some other issue. Many have mentioned it... it's communication, or more specifically, the lack of it!

But I would suggest that there may be a deeper issue here that needs to be addressed. I have to question whether the relationship, as described, is based on love. Love is not about keeping scorecards, or bartering, or, positioning ourselves in the relationship, or seeing what is in it for ourselves. Love is not at all about self but is all about dying to self. It's about putting our partner's needs and well being ahead of our own. If both partners approach the relationship with that kind of attitude, I guarantee that that both partners will be fully satisfied emotionally, physically, intellectually, and spiritually.

Of course this is an ideal situation but then again, this is hypothetical situation... but it should give us all a goal to strive for. "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (I Corinthians 13:4-7, NIV)

[kittypw GG]

Holly you are so sweet. I love that Corinthians verse. I think that you are so right but don't you think that you have come to this conclusion because you have accepted and love yourself? When this is achieved then you don't sweat the small stuff so much. There is no need for sneeking, hiding or lying about your desires. Heck you may not even be lying but more unsure of who or what you are. Don't you think a lot of the struggles that some go through are directly related to self hatred or confusion about where on the CD spectrum you are?

For So's, and I have said this before, it is fear of the unknown that causes most all of the anguish. Yeah some are oposed to crossdressing due to religion or upbrining but most of it is fear. I have known about and started to get involved in the cd community about 8 years ago. Ever since the first day I had contact with other SO's I have heard complaint after complaint that their husbands shut them out. They isolate themselves, are moody and get caught at lies either directly or by words and actions not matching.

I understand the risk that some are taking by being honest about their inner feelings but isn't the imagined always the worse senerio? Why shut someone out of your life that you suposedly love? Even if you don't know where things are going wouldn't it be better to keep your SO in the loop?

So many questions and very few answers it seems. I do think that self acceptance and self forgiveness should be the goal of every individual.
Kitty

[TxKimberly]

So I return from a service call where I have admitted that I damaged a component of a customers instrument, and insist that we need to provide a replacement free of charge. My manager looks at me and says "You know what I really like about you most - your honesty and integrity". He pauses and says "You know what I really hate about you? Your honesty and integrity". We have a good laugh, I get and install the part I damaged and everyone is happy.
Well, as regards Kitty's post, I would have to admit that I am pretty guilty of just about everything she has written, although perhaps not to the degree implied. There's no way around it, I'm not going to get all excited and worked up about a visit to her relatives (mine all live thousands of miles from here).
My wife has accused me of exactly what Kitty has written, and I'm not fool enough to argue it is not based in truth. She gets angry that I don't come up with ideas for places to go - it bugs the hell outta her that she has to plan it all. For example, she loves to go camping, but after 12 years in the Army, I HATE camping. There is no happy medium there! :-)
Right, wrong, darned if I know, but there are some things that excite and thrill me, and there are somethings that don't. I don't fight and make her drag me kicking and screaming to visit her family, and I also don't give her a bad attitude and make her feel guilty for it while there. Am I excited and enthusiastic "come on babe, let's load up the rug rats and go!"- not really.
No answers here I guess, just ranting . . .
Kim (the bad husband)

[christina marie]

ok, problem#1, obviously this is not a purely hypothetical situation, by the way it is written there are some(at least) personal issues involved here. it is not possible to give a purely objective opinion when you know someone elses feelings are involved. by our nature we lean a bit on the sensitive side, and tend to be careful not to be offensive. if you want a truly objective opinion, ask a group of people who have no stake in the hypothetical situation. 90% of the people here are either CDers or SOs and will feel some empathy to one side or the other, eliminating the possibility for objectivity.
problem#2 honesty. neither side seems to be communicating their needs clearly. being honest about your desires and objectives for your relationship is the only way to build something that will stand the test of time. anything less is a self inflicted shot to the head.
IMHO this relationship, hypothetical or not, has much larger issues than CDing. honesty,understanding,maturity, and a sense of compassion on both parts, for all issues, seem to me to be the primary issues that need to be adressed before either person could be happy. above all else, a marriage,or any committed relationship, is a partnership. if both people are not on the same page in that aspect,then there is no chance of success. one last thought, for those of us that are married and finding these issues to be a stumbling block. how important are your vows to you? what value can you place on the words"for better or worse"? in my personal experience, my wife and i have put each other through hell and back several times in our 7 years of marriage, yet each time we have worked things out and come out stronger and more committed to each other every time. we are just beginning our journey into this aspect of our life,and i dont expect it to be any easier than any thing that has come before,but previous experience has taught me that if we try, we will find the strength to make it. my absolute best wish is the same strength and devotion for all of you!

[kittypw GG]

Christina Marie,
You are right the senerio is not totally hypothetical but a sort of combination of personal expirence and the expirences of other gg's that I have listened to over the years. You are also right about not being totally objective. If my hubby had come up with the senerio's there would have been a slightly different slant. I wanted to attempt to start a discussion on spousal acceptance and bring up the fact that many SO's feel shut out of their CD's life.

Most often when I read posts from CD's complaining about their wive's non acceptance I feel that it is really not related to crossdressing at all. The same can be said for the So's position. Her non accptance really has little to do with the crossdressing but more to do with fear. Sometimes we can be our own worst enemies.

For instance, CD tells So that he doesn't want to be a women just emulate one occasionally. So trys to accept that but catches hubby at a lie about chatting with others on the internet or catches him spending lots of time watching transexual porn. He also goes overboard with the dressing. So goes into fear mode because words and actions don't match and CD is shutting her
out. Since we can't read eachothers minds, it is human nature to make up possible reasons for the words and the actions not matching. He must be gay, he must want to be a women, I hate the crossdressing. Really she hates the lies and the lack of communication. He hates the reprocussions that her fears bring. Not really about crossdressing.

Again we come back to a lack of communication. The relationship errodes to the point of dissolution and crossdressing gets the blame from both the CD and the SO. So lets think beyond the crossdressing and get to the nitty gritty. The things that we can do to make our situations better.
What can the CD do to help eliminate the fears of his SO? What can the SO do to help the CD be honest about his feelings and desires?
:hugs: Kitty

[Satrana]

CD: When not crossdressing the cd is moody, introverted, quick to anger, not talkative. Personal human interaction is replaced with surfing the internet. When the cd has free time to spend with the SO and if crossdressing is not suggested, the CD finds some activity that does not include their SO and seldom suggests activities that do not involve crossdressing. The CD seems to have no interest in suggested activities like going to a movie or junk shopping unless the focus is on finding dresses or shoes for themselves. The CD only reluctantly participates in activities that the SO finds important or are obligations to family or friends such as weddings, annaversaries etc. Get togethers with work friends is not very important but the CD will go reluctantly and bring it up as a proof that he participates in the SO's life. The CD feels that the SO controls the crossdressing because the SO's participation is crucial in the eyes of the CD.



If you replaced crossdressing with a hobby and showed this to non-cd wives then many would recognize it and cry out "That's my husband!" These behaviors have got nothing to do with crossdressing itself and everything to do with a "hobby" which has become a dominating factor in a relationship and which the two partners cannot agree upon how it should be handled which causes resentment and hurt on both sides.

If the relationship is not working as it should but you still want to stay together then you need to agree to take stock of what has transpired and start again from scratch, this time building a new framework together from the ground up which actually works. This requires both parties to be honest about their needs and wants, likes and dislikes, forgetting whatever has been said or done in the past.

The couple may find that there is no possible framework that works in which case they would be happier apart. I would also suggest that in any new framework that crossdressing does not take central stage and is not made a BIG issue. I think the nature of the relationship has made crossdressing balloon into a major problem when it should really just be another tick in the checklist of relationship issues.

[kittypw GG]

Good suggestions Satrana, :D :hugs: Kitty

[Satrana]

What can the CD do to help eliminate the fears of his SO? What can the SO do to help the CD be honest about his feelings and desires?


Fear is often irrational - fear of the dark, fear of spiders etc. In the case of SOs I guess fear of the unknown. No matter how many times a CD may say he does not want to transition, is not bisexual etc, does the fear not remain?

For me this is really just a mindset. Does the SO trust her husband implicitly, if so she must believe him and let go of the fear. Similarly a CD must trust his SO and not fear that she will one day turn around and call him a freak, pervert and walk out on him. If not he will continue to hide or downplay behavior which he thinks will make him an even bigger wierdo in the eyes of his SO.

[MsJanessa]

Hi Kitty----given the scenario you have drawn in your post (and what I know about your personal situation) your problem is one faced by many women and by some men. If you left out the cd part of it (which in moderation you are not only ok with but actually enjoy) it is the old familiar story of one spouse trying to do everything in a marraige to make it work and the other spouse totally insisting on having everything their way 100&#37; of the time. Most successful marriages where both couples are reasonably happy (and nobody is happy 100% of the time) consist of a series of compromises to make both parties satisfied. For example, if the husband likes golf and the wife doesn't, the husband will still stay at home with his wife one day in a weekend on a regular basis, not because he wants to give up a golf day, but because he knows that doing so will make his spouse happy. Likewise the wife won't begrudge her husband playing golf once a week. The problem occurrs when one spouse wants their way all the time---playing golf two days a weekend and three nights a week, or never playing at all. It sounds like your husband needs a life outside of cding---from what I can tell, he sounds like an obsessive/compulsive type of person who has an all or nothing attitude. The fact of the matter is the picture you have drawn of him is that of a selfish overindulged child who is using crossdressing as a way of controlling you. I assume that you have talked to him about it on many occasions to no avail. Have you tried marriage counselling? If so and it hasn't worked, then you have a decision to make, and not a very easy one but one only you can make---nobody can do it for you. Good luck

[Carin]

"I am confused..." OK I don't really know if he did say that, but probably!:straightface:

Albeit a pseudo-hypothetical situation, the original tone is clearly a one-sided expression, so I will NOT comment on the hypothecy. Objectivity is not possible without access to both perspectives.

Nonetheless, some of the questions have validity in the context of any relationship where there is a dominant concern riding on the relationship, in a generic sense but also in the specific of crossdressing/transgendered behaviors.

There are two questions in particular, pardon me of rearranging the order and editing out the qualifier:

Questions to ponder:

Is it possible for the CD/SO couple to have a sucessful partnership?

How do the CD and the SO find some common ground?

My answers to those questions are Yes, and, It requires hard work of a persoal nature.

IMHO, crucial to a relationship with dominant issues is the concept of ownership of those issues, and responsibility of the effects. By example, if both partners have a devout interest in cooking, then they take joint ownership in the pursuit of that activity. If one partner, but not the other has a strong interest in Buddism then that partner must take ownership of that interest and take responsibility for the effects or consequences (good or bad) of that on the relationship.

Ownership of the activity and responsibility for the outcomes go hand in hand. Consideration for the relationship plays an important part in the activity, but does not convey any rights of ownership or responsibility. I own what I do, I am responsible for what I do. This applies to both partners, and servers to seperate out practical or emotional control of each other from control of the activity.

In the context of crossdressing there is often a blindness factor on both sides. Who knows where this desire came from? Who knows what this is exactly? Who knows where it is going? Be prepared for a legitiimate "I don't know" answer from the crossdresser as well as from the SO. Even when I thought I knew the answers to those questions, I did not. Not because I was being deceptive to my SO or even to myself. I didn't know what I didn't know.

So how DO you find common ground. Start with ownership. The crossdresser owns the crossdressing. She takes responsibility for the crossdressing and its consequences - good or bad. Just as she would take ownership of primary hobby, a strong interest in a particular religion, participation in a volunteer orginazition. She owns responsibility for the activity and responsibility for the consequences of that activity. The spouse also takes ownership of her own activities, and their consequences. How do you equate or balance a Crossdresser's desire to dress with an SO's desire to visit family. You don't. They are seperate topics with sepearate ownership.

The crossdresser and the SO also own their own individual feelings and must also take responsibility of those feelings. By example, if the cd likes to wear a nite-dress to bed, she owns that decision and must take responsibility for the consequences - good or bad. The SO might get turned on by it and the fun begins, or the SO might reject the concept as unacceptable and they sleep seperated. Both partners must take responsibility for their own desires and feelings and for the impact and consequences on their partner. Each must convey (communications!! the perennial challenge) their feelings - good and bad - so that the other understands the consequences of their actions.

A Common Ground
The exploration of the workings of the human pshche can be most interesting. When the human is your partner, it can even get exciting. Few topics present a forum for exploration as well as the phenomenon of crossdressing /TG. In a relationship where the concept of TG is open, understanding your partners feelings through discussion and honest communication can be very enriching.

The Hard Work
Its not easy. Open and honest communication includes times of feeling rejected (both sides of the partnership). That is not easy. Taking responsibility for engaging in a particular activity that was received as hurtful by your partner is hard work. Being honest with yourself is hard work. This society does not condition us to to be honest with ourselves. We prefer to transfer culpability anywhere else. Getting what your partner was trying to say instead of reacting to what they actually said is hard work.

It doesnt work all the time. We don't know what to say. We are afraid to say. We say stupid things. We are human.

Relationships
My definition of 'Relationship' is "How we relate to each other". Human nature and survival of the species dictates that we start out in relationships at a more physical level. Evolution and time shifts that to a more emphatic, caring and nurturing level. When we get past what we do for each other we find what we feel for each other. When we get past what we feel for each other we find what the other is feeling.

Hmmm. That was a bit longwinded. But that is my :2c: worth.

[Di]

Kitty, This is an outstanding thread been reading with much interest .
On your questions to ponder....except for the last ( come to that in a min)
I just do not know how you convey to him how these things should be important to you both or finding a common ground......because the control issues..... and he trys to turn everything around on you by being moody, sulking ect and acting the way he does when in social situations......I feel he is being passive-aggressive and he gets trys to get his way by stalling and withdrawing, sulking.How someone deals with that...I just do not have an answer.For me I'd prob not deal with it and go off and do my own thing....a recipie for disaster....
Now the last question to ponder..Is it possible the CD/SO couple to have a successful partnership and maintain the current attitudes given in the senarios?

I'd say not with the status quo ...................but I know that there's always hope that you can save your relationship, to be willing to somehow comes to a compromise you both can live with.

[battybattybats]

In my experience of the way men tend to behave, when a man withdraws it is almost always (generalisation but true in most of my experience) not to elicit a particular response or get their own way in a form of passive aggression but instead is because of their own incapacity to handle their personal emotional turmoil. I have known plenty of guys (including relatives) who react just like this. They might throw themselves into work or a hobby, they may take up a new pasttime almost at random and devote every waking hour to it, they may go with barely an hours sleep for days on end.

This isn't done out of selfishness nor as a way of getting their own way but instead because they don't know how to handle, deal with, control, contain or even live with profound emotional states so they will avoid thinking about the actual problem and instead try and fill their every moment with something else until the situation changes or their unconcious minds have processed their feelings for them.

Any emotion can cause this, as long as it is strong, unfamiliar or difficult for the man. I've seen it happen with Love where the person fairly fled the woman he was interested in and spent all his time on a hobby. I've seen it happen with Fear, of aging, of failure, of mortality. I've seen it happen with grief, profound or even seemingly insignificant.

This isn't childishness but a profound and ingrained reflex heavily conditioned into boys from an early age. This is exactly how many boys are taught to deal with emotions in life.

I think that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with current masculine culture, with societies expectations of men. Boys, especially in rural areas, are taught to disregard their emotions, to reject them alongside anything remotely considered feminine as weakness and a flaw. They are taught not to cry, not to show fear, not to show emotion, not to show sympathy, not to show too much interest in women unless it is sexual. They are taught to be thoroughly emotionally disfunctional.

I have seen women as well as men take part in this conditioning, mothers teacthing these lessons to children as much as their fathers or peers. I think it comes from artificial false and/or edxaggerated ideas of what males should be like. I have also seen that this can lead to violence (and I am not excusing that violence in any way) as I have observed that many men when unable to handle their feelings if forced to face an issue that they are trying to avoid even if it is tangentially related to their emotion will react with intense anger. It can be easier for some men to lash out physically at people trying to help them than to face their feelings.

Thankfully I have seen some improvement with these things over my lifetime, with the broader victories of feminism and the breakdown of traditional male roles, with reductions in entrenched cultural homophobia that had many men acting as extreme parodies of supposed 'proper' male behaviour to avoid the stigma of seeming gay, with the rise of acceptance of small displays of emotions.

There is still a massive amount of work needed before we can finally destroy the repressive ideas of a limited acceptable masculinity that have chained, twisted and stunted men for generations fueling self-hatred, fear and hatred of the different and inspiring many forms of violence. How many women, gays, transgenders and others have been bullied, assaulted or murdered because of their transgressions of these rules of acceptable masculinity? Because their actions against these remind the repressed of their own trapped inner conflicts?

How much suffering exists in the world because men are not able/allowed/encouraged to come to terms with their own inner nature whether emotional, sexual or gender expression?

Now I'm not sure if that is what is happening in this case, but I have seen this kind of behaviour hundreds of times. Certainly I think the CD in this scenario needs to explore and come to terms with whatever emotions are seething beneath the surface, causing the withdrawel. Communication is key, but there must also be a non-judgemental acceptance/acknowledgement of feelings-even ones that are selfish. The cause of the feelings could be seemingly small, but unless it can be admitted and faced it can't be dealt with.

[sobe1ove GG]

Unfortunately, this is sort of what's been happening with Leah B and I. He can't seem to be satisfied with anything that happens because he hasn't yet gotten everything he wants. I tell him that it'll take time and we need to go slow but he gets upset. He very much resembles the original post CD right now. It's causing some relationship problems. Luckily, he's looking into going to a therapist and group meetings and stuff.

[KrazyKat]

What an enlightening discussion, thank you Kittypw!!

I think so many things have been provoking good thought. But this just gave me an "AH-Ha!" moment!!:eek:
battybattybats wrote:
"Boys, especially in rural areas, are taught to disregard their emotions, to reject them alongside anything remotely considered feminine as weakness and a flaw."
I was raised by 2 older brothers, just like this!! Ok, enlightenment.

And , WOW, People, do you understand this? No one wants to, IMHO>
What Carin said, about BEING RESPONSIBLE AND OWNING YOUR ACTIONS. You can't make someone do something, without threat of harm, can you? Or why would you want to be responsible for someone else, isn't itHARD WORK ENOUGHto be responsible for yourself?

Like Carin said:"IT'S HARD WORK!!" :thumbsup: And many of us are taught by mentors, at very young ages had it BEAT into "us", that to work hard at making ourselves a better person can be sign of weakness!!
+? Isn't it a sign of your "Power" to make others take the blame for something you should "work hard" to do?
So, Kitty, this would take the question full circle? A CD fighting with ones self image is using the "male" ihherited right of "Power" to make someone else take the blame for not working hard/getting help/understanding how....for their "hobby"?

[Carin's Wife GG]

is in large part what has allowed Carin and I to get to where we are today. So thank you dear for pointing that out!



Louise.


Unfortunately, this is sort of what's been happening with Leah B and I. He can't seem to be satisfied with anything that happens because he hasn't yet gotten everything he wants. I tell him that it'll take time and we need to go slow but he gets upset. He very much resembles the original post CD right now. It's causing some relationship problems. Luckily, he's looking into going to a therapist and group meetings and stuff.


before we realized that neither one could change the other. It goes two ways. Both you and Leah are going through such a rough time right now. Looking at it from a distance it is all so familiar (and painful).

(I did it again, posted two posts when I could have just done one, so sorry mods!)

:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:


Louise.

[kittypw GG]

First of all let me say that I am very impressed with the intelligent and thoughtful replys to this thread. I know that it will be helpful to more than just me.

Carin,
I think you are right, we all have to be responsible for and take ownership of our actions and our feelings. I think that when we place too much of the responsibility onto our spouses and they fail us in either not having the enthusiasim or the interest in whatever activity we want them to participate in we feel let down and many emotions can surface. I like what TxKimberly said about hating camping. Kim also said that he doesn't make it miserable or go kicking and screaming to activities that his wife really wants him to participate in when he is less than enthusiastic about participating. Sometimes you just have to buck up and put a smile on your face. I guess in a way you are responsible for wether or not you will have a good time. If you participate with a lousy attitude, lousy is what you will receive in return. If you participate with a good attitude, you might just have the time of your life. It is the law of attraction.

I want to thank you Battybattybats for your insight into the male expirence. You have brought up things I have not thought about. I do look at my hubby's withdrawal as passive aggression. I never really thought that he may not have the ability to handle or deal with the emotional turmoil that he might be going through. He was a career military man, tough as nails for 22 years. Now he wants to wear skirts???? I think that confusses him more than me. He also has it ingrained in him to dictate what we do and how often we do it in terms of the dressing. I think that is the master seargent in him. I guess that was his training. I am definately non military and get my neck hair up when the master seargent comes out. :straightface:

I feel sad that we as a culture can't give our boys more of an emotional training. I feel that I have done so for my son. He hasn't always appreciated it though. He was brought up to be sensitive and thoughtful and has the abiltiy to talk about his feelings. These traits have gotten him some ridicule though because these traits in a boy are considered "GAY" and he is certainly not gay but had some confusion about himself because he did not fit the traditional male model. Now he is proud to consider himself a feminist :happy:
He has gotten past the trying to fit in stage and is trying to be true to himself.

Batty I have read and reread your words and will take them to heart. It has given me cause to think a little differently and will apply that slant to situations in my relationship to my hubby. I thank you for that.

Now here is a question in response to your comments. Do men want to change this pattern? Do men want to get in touch with their feelings and find a way to deal with their emotional turmoil? Or is it too late to change and establish some introspective emotional language?
:hugs:Kitty

[Kate Simmons]

Kitty, To answer your questions in a personal way, I wanted to change the pattern. I found a way to get in touch with my feelings to end the conflicts and emotional turmoil. I found out that it's never too late and an old "dog" can learn new tricks. You have to want to do it though and it is not easy but well worth the effort. You also have to be totally honest with yourself and hold nothing back even if it's painful. In the end, you do take ownership of yourself.:happy:

[kittypw GG]

Kitty, To answer your questions in a personal way, I wanted to change the pattern. I found a way to get in touch with my feelings to end the conflicts and emotional turmoil. I found out that it's never too late and an old "dog" can learn new tricks. You have to want to do it though and it is not easy but well worth the effort. You also have to be totally honest with yourself and hold nothing back even if it's painful. In the end, you do take ownership of yourself.:happy:

Sal, you give me hope and inspiration :love: Kitty

[Kerry Owens]

Like I said earlier, this thread has truely been a thought and fascinating thread, it's added a lot of discussion and knowledge! Thanks Kitty!

[sobe1ove GG]

See, here's a problem with me and Leah B (I love how that rhymes.) Anyway, he can't be satisfied with what happens in regards to progressing his CDing. We get him a wig and a bunch of clothes, but it doesn't make him happy because he doesn't 'get to' to out dressed up yet. It's hard for me to willingly do this sometimes if my effort and supportiveness doesn't make him any more happy. If he's still sad, it chips away at my motivation.

I like what someone said about just grinning and bearing it and making yourself happy. Leah says that he knows he should be content but that he can't bring himself to do it. The way I see it, if you really want something for yourself, then you can do it. That leads me to beleive that he actually doesn't WANT to be content. If he really wanted to be, then he could do it. Then again, maybe I just read too many Anthony Robbins motivational books.

Sobe

[kerrianna]

In my experience of the way men tend to behave, when a man withdraws it is almost always (generalisation but true in most of my experience) not to elicit a particular response or get their own way in a form of passive aggression but instead is because of their own incapacity to handle their personal emotional turmoil. I have known plenty of guys (including relatives) who react just like this. They might throw themselves into work or a hobby, they may take up a new pasttime almost at random and devote every waking hour to it, they may go with barely an hours sleep for days on end.

This isn't done out of selfishness nor as a way of getting their own way but instead because they don't know how to handle, deal with, control, contain or even live with profound emotional states so they will avoid thinking about the actual problem and instead try and fill their every moment with something else until the situation changes or their unconcious minds have processed their feelings for them.

Any emotion can cause this, as long as it is strong, unfamiliar or difficult for the man. I've seen it happen with Love where the person fairly fled the woman he was interested in and spent all his time on a hobby. I've seen it happen with Fear, of aging, of failure, of mortality. I've seen it happen with grief, profound or even seemingly insignificant.

This isn't childishness but a profound and ingrained reflex heavily conditioned into boys from an early age. This is exactly how many boys are taught to deal with emotions in life.

I think that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with current masculine culture, with societies expectations of men. Boys, especially in rural areas, are taught to disregard their emotions, to reject them alongside anything remotely considered feminine as weakness and a flaw. They are taught not to cry, not to show fear, not to show emotion, not to show sympathy, not to show too much interest in women unless it is sexual. They are taught to be thoroughly emotionally disfunctional.

I have seen women as well as men take part in this conditioning, mothers teacthing these lessons to children as much as their fathers or peers. I think it comes from artificial false and/or edxaggerated ideas of what males should be like. I have also seen that this can lead to violence (and I am not excusing that violence in any way) as I have observed that many men when unable to handle their feelings if forced to face an issue that they are trying to avoid even if it is tangentially related to their emotion will react with intense anger. It can be easier for some men to lash out physically at people trying to help them than to face their feelings.

Thankfully I have seen some improvement with these things over my lifetime, with the broader victories of feminism and the breakdown of traditional male roles, with reductions in entrenched cultural homophobia that had many men acting as extreme parodies of supposed 'proper' male behaviour to avoid the stigma of seeming gay, with the rise of acceptance of small displays of emotions.

There is still a massive amount of work needed before we can finally destroy the repressive ideas of a limited acceptable masculinity that have chained, twisted and stunted men for generations fueling self-hatred, fear and hatred of the different and inspiring many forms of violence. How many women, gays, transgenders and others have been bullied, assaulted or murdered because of their transgressions of these rules of acceptable masculinity? Because their actions against these remind the repressed of their own trapped inner conflicts?

How much suffering exists in the world because men are not able/allowed/encouraged to come to terms with their own inner nature whether emotional, sexual or gender expression?

Now I'm not sure if that is what is happening in this case, but I have seen this kind of behaviour hundreds of times. Certainly I think the CD in this scenario needs to explore and come to terms with whatever emotions are seething beneath the surface, causing the withdrawel. Communication is key, but there must also be a non-judgemental acceptance/acknowledgement of feelings-even ones that are selfish. The cause of the feelings could be seemingly small, but unless it can be admitted and faced it can't be dealt with.


:clap: Well articulated BBB.

I hope that we can role-model more emotionally open behaviour for males in our culture. Especially those of us who carry on and are seen as male by society. Because you are right, this world would be a much better place if males weren't dulled and hardened emotionally by social standards.

[battybattybats]

See, here's a problem with me and Leah B (I love how that rhymes.) Anyway, he can't be satisfied with what happens in regards to progressing his CDing. We get him a wig and a bunch of clothes, but it doesn't make him happy because he doesn't 'get to' to out dressed up yet. It's hard for me to willingly do this sometimes if my effort and supportiveness doesn't make him any more happy. If he's still sad, it chips away at my motivation.

I like what someone said about just grinning and bearing it and making yourself happy. Leah says that he knows he should be content but that he can't bring himself to do it. The way I see it, if you really want something for yourself, then you can do it. That leads me to beleive that he actually doesn't WANT to be content. If he really wanted to be, then he could do it. Then again, maybe I just read too many Anthony Robbins motivational books.

Sobe

I totally reject the 'if you really want it enough' notion. It goes right next to the 'if you really love someone enough' notion as a romantic fairytale that destroys people. No amount of love will give me the capacity to pluck the moon from the sky and offer it as a tiny necklace to my girlfriend. It is fundamentally impossible to do some things. If something can't be done it can't be done for a reason. I may not be able to pluck the moon from the sky because it weighs millions of tons and is locked in orbit around the earth. Knowing that, I could still fulfill that desire by getting a gemstone that resembles the moon and giving it as the gift but it would only be symbolically the same.

If Leah B isn't happy then it will be for a reason. That reason may be external as well as internal and will undoubtedly have an internal component. The important question isn't yet what would make Leah B happy but why is Leah B not happy. Not just on the surface but deep down. Finding out why she is unfulfilled could give you both tremendous power and understanding. Are you working on the right parts of her CD'ing? Is it the social aspect she needs more now? Is there anything that would be enough or is the craving for more now as a way to try and cope with conflicting internal feelings, maybe even only tangentialy related to dressing? Or.. Is she trying to immerse herself as a way to force herself to accept this part of her?

When I first started to realise this wasn't going away aand that It wasn't something to be ashamed of (though I still felt emotionally ashamed and embarrassed) I started having intense desires to out myself in a big public way. I realised this was because if the 'cat was out of the bag' (bat out of the belfry?) then I could no longer deny this part of myself and I would not be able to fear being found out. Well I restrained myself which, at the time, was a very good thing. I instead just came out to my mum. That went well and gave me enough of what I needed to keep going slowly.

Sounds to me like the therapist and group meetings are exactly what she needs. Not to fix problems but as a vehicle on her journey of self discovery that will enable her to come to terms with her needs and emotions. There may be value in you attending similar that may smooth your own journey with this and to help you both keep pace with one another.

To everyone else, I'm glad my insights into the male condition have been insightful and helpful to everyone.
Amusingly to me they were a bit of a hindrance in one way too.. I realised these things when trying to come to terms with the actions of others (and occassionally my own) and so became determined to be me irrespective of notions of how males 'should be' however in my desire to be a whole male rather than a narrow one which while I feel that was a very good thing, I ignored and denied aspects of wanting to be very very feminine because I was trying too much to integrate my femininity into my maleness. I still am very happy being feminine in my maleness and I think that that is very important but I have had to accept that sometimes I need more than that, to look and feel female. Of course my femaleness isn't an extreme stereotype of femininity either and that, to me, is also important.

:hugs:

[Leah B]

I can't just make myself happy, and I DO appreciate what you've given me. But there's more going on here, and we can talk about that off the boards if you want to.

[kittypw GG]

Batty,
As a side note to your comments about socializing our boys to be dysfunctional. I have read some posts by CD's who have perpetuated this crime (if you will) onto their own boys. Do you think that some try to make their boys even more macho because they don't want them to grow up to be CD's or find out that their fathers are weak?

I can't tell you how much your words have invaded my brain. I think that it is the first time ever that I have read comments like yours. What a wonderful expirence for personal growth and higher knowledge. :love: Kitty

[Dixie]

Interesting case study. I have waited to post because I felt it doesn't really apply to our (wife and I) situation. My wife dressed me up early in our relationship so it has never been a secret. We go through phases when it's at the forefront, and phases when it is not. We toned it way back to just some underdressing after our oldest was born, but have recently kicked into high gear again. For reference of time our oldest is 12.

[ubokvt]

I've seen what you are discribing many times in many relationships. How does a relationship survive when one person has an all consuming passion. This could be almost anything, sports, golf, hunting, dogs, their job, religion, their passion consumes them. They are single minded in the way they live their lives to the exclusion of anything that does not include their passion, including their partner. Their is no easy answer to this. Here the problem is CDing but it could just as easily be a SO bemoaning a workaholic spouse that gives all to climbing the corprate ladder. How do you get some one to see beyond their passion. I don't know.

[Christine XX]

Paraphrased from the OP:

moody, introverted, quick to anger, not talkative, human interaction replaced with surfing the internet, finds solo activities, no interest in movies or shopping, only reluctantly participates with family, friends, weddings, anniversaries etc.
Does anyone else see this and think depression? It looks like a classic list of symptoms to me. Having some good friends dealing with depression I've learned that sometimes people can get cause and effect mixed up. Sometimes depression is just caused by chemical imbalances, but we assume something stressful in our lives (work, money, wife, kids, CD'ing) is the cause.

Adding to Batty's post about mens emotional dysfunction, I think men feel they must solve their own problems without ever asking for help. "If only I could work through problem xyz, I would be happy. Then I could tell my wife/family/friends about it afterward." Unfortunately, since problem xyz is not truly the cause of the unhappiness, working at the problem, no matter how hard, will not bring happiness. The depression then continues untreated.

I think that seeing a therapist is a good idea to find out if depression is a factor. If it is, and it gets treated, it might make working on any other issues a lot easier.

It's something to think about, anyway.

-Christine

P.S. Keep in mind, I got a C- in Psych 101 :)

[Carin's Wife GG]

Batty,
As a side note to your comments about socializing our boys to be dysfunctional. I have read some posts by CD's who have perpetuated this crime (if you will) onto their own boys. Do you think that some try to make their boys even more macho because they don't want them to grow up to be CD's or find out that their fathers are weak?

I can't tell you how much your words have invaded my brain. I think that it is the first time ever that I have read comments like yours. What a wonderful expirence for personal growth and higher knowledge. :love: Kitty

we have always strived to teach all of our children, both male and female to express their emotions and have I hope provided a safe enviornment to do that. That being said, our boys have assumed the general male characteristic of *holding it in*. I would assme this is social conditioning more than home influence. On the other hand, my twins played football and were team captains all four years of High School (one of them ranked 2nd in the State this year for receiving yards (brag over!))and still had the confidence to become cheerleaders and are considered two of the best in the entire State of California!

As mothers and fathers we have a lot to do with how our children, both female and male view themselves and others in the world. Providing a safe emotional enviornment in probably the first and most important thing we can do.



Louise.

[battybattybats]

Batty,
As a side note to your comments about socializing our boys to be dysfunctional. I have read some posts by CD's who have perpetuated this crime (if you will) onto their own boys. Do you think that some try to make their boys even more macho because they don't want them to grow up to be CD's or find out that their fathers are weak?

I can't tell you how much your words have invaded my brain. I think that it is the first time ever that I have read comments like yours. What a wonderful expirence for personal growth and higher knowledge. :love: Kitty

Interesting point. I definatly think that might occur, but I think it would be more likely to come from one or more of:
a) the cd'er not wanting to be found out or in strong denial and so keeping up the macho male stereotype on the outside
b) the cd'er believing in the gender stereotypes and even polarising them further so their maleness is an extreme stereotype while their female side is equally extreme a stereotype so these both would be passed to children
c) fear that exposing children to crossdressing will cause some sort of harm to the children and so producing the same effect as (a) to 'protect' them

As to the latter, I haven't heard of any studies that suggest it causes harm. Has anyone any one way or the other? For many I suppose it could be fear of inflicting difference on the children which seems a strong fear for many. All the studies on children raised by gay parents that had any credibility that I've seen show no harm so I don't see how it would be harmful based on that but that view should defer to quality evidence.

[renee99]

It sounds like he wants a mother more than he wants a wife. Just saying. I find myself falling into the same patterns sometimes. Put this together with the forced feminization fantasy common to crossdressers, and you can see why it comes on especially strong. My advice would be to force him to ask for what he wants. Don't respond to passive aggressive behavior. That way, he will both have to admit to himself that he wants it (bringing him out of his own closet) and at the same time admit to himself that he is demanding it of you, and he will see what effort you are putting into it.

Also, my own relationship got a lot better when my long time gf started acting like she was into it. I know deep down she'd rather not be into it, because of homophobia more than anything I think, and she herself can't even stand dressing girly, preferring jeans and big t-shirts and little to no makeup. (She also dislikes lingerie, satin, lace, all the stuff I adore, and wears basic cotton panties.) But she pretends she likes to buy me stuff and do girly things with me, pointing out things in girly magazines, pointing to outfits, telling me fantasy stories, etc. She is a good actor, and my suspension of disbelief works well enough that I feel my needs are met. This works for both of us I think, at least for now. I think a big motivation for her may be that sex is a flop otherwise, and she knows it makes me feel really bad when she's horny and nothing is happening for me, so she does her best to help me perform, so I feel better about myself, and she is satisfied in the end.

[MoonBaby GG]

Marriage and relationships are based on love, trust, understanding, and a lot of compromise on both sides.

*NODS* ~ Your comment puts it all into perspective. Both the CD'er and the SO need to do each of those things and sometimes one of those might be more necessary than others.

[Satrana]

Now here is a question in response to your comments. Do men want to change this pattern? Do men want to get in touch with their feelings and find a way to deal with their emotional turmoil? Or is it too late to change and establish some introspective emotional language?
:hugs:Kitty

If we are talking about men in general then the answer is no, the emotional dysfunction, or as I like to call it the emotional lobotomy, of boys' upbringing is so deeply ingrained that it is extremly difficult to dislodge. Also men and women alike think the emotionally challenged male is the "natural" way men are so there is no reason to change the status quo. If you believe things are the way they are, then why fix something which is not broken. Men will not change this pattern because they do not recognize there is a problem.

Mothers and fathers usually want their boys to grow up into "real" men, natural leaders, confident, driven, successful, desirable by women. Raising boys to be emotionally sensitive is the exceptional to the rule and will often make the boy a social outcast. Similarly women, especially in their younger years, tend to seek masculine boyfriends, so young men learn the more they play into the masculine role, the more successful they will be with the opposite sex. Being emotional sensitive is usually a big handicap to a male in all parts of his life - he will typically have a low reputation, fewer friends, less successful career, less successful with the girls etc so the temptation to withhold his emotions and project a masculine personality to get ahead will be strong.

The only groups of men who recognize the problem and who may attempt to reverse this emotional lobotomy are gays and transgendered. But cds themselves are often focussed on the crossdressing as an activity, as a source of pleasure and relaxation so many miss the bigger picture.

[Satrana]

See, here's a problem with me and Leah B (I love how that rhymes.) Anyway, he can't be satisfied with what happens in regards to progressing his CDing. We get him a wig and a bunch of clothes, but it doesn't make him happy because he doesn't 'get to' to out dressed up yet. It's hard for me to willingly do this sometimes if my effort and supportiveness doesn't make him any more happy. If he's still sad, it chips away at my motivation.

I like what someone said about just grinning and bearing it and making yourself happy. Leah says that he knows he should be content but that he can't bring himself to do it. The way I see it, if you really want something for yourself, then you can do it. That leads me to beleive that he actually doesn't WANT to be content. If he really wanted to be, then he could do it. Then again, maybe I just read too many Anthony Robbins motivational books.

Sobe

Lets say you have an 18 year old son who wants to learn to drive. You give him the keys to a car but tell him that he can only drive it up and down the driveway. Naturally he wants to drive it around the streets, he wants to explore, he wants to make use of his new skills to do what everyone is allowed to do - the freedom to drive.

Do you think your son would be happy with this limitation? You may have what you consider justifiable reasons why you are not prepared to allow him to drive around the streets but holding back someone else's needs and desires is guaranteed to cause fustration and dissatisfaction.

Limiting someone else's freedom because of your own internal issues is not likely to earn you kudos points. Your fears and concerns are being used to hold back the flowering of Leah's feminine personality.

Leah is basically a female adolescent who wants to grow up into adulthood. And while there is good reason go progress step by step so that no rash behavioir is developed, how many adolescents do you know who are happy with limited freedoms? The problem of course is that Leah is also an adult male with adult responsibilities and adult freedoms.

I guess what I am saying is if Leah acknowledges your issues and concerns and is living by your rules then you should acknowledge that you are limiting her freedom and should not expect her to be happy until she gets total freedom and you trust her to be responsible in her actions and behavior and let go of your issues.

[kittypw GG]

. I guess what I am saying is if Leah acknowledges your issues and concerns and is living by your rules then you should acknowledge that you are limiting her freedom and should not expect her to be happy until she gets total freedom and you trust her to be responsible in her actions and behavior and let go of your issues.

I agree that one should acknowledge that you are in a way limiting Leah's freedom but on the other hand Leah needs to acknowledge that this is his "thing" and that Sobe will naturally be less than enthusiastic about frequent participation. This is where Carin's comments will come in handy. Both parties need to take responsibility for their own actions and feelings. Many times, in my own situation as well, the CD places a lot of responsibility on the spouses participation. When the spouse fails to live up to the CD's expectation then they accuse the spouse of being unaccepting when it is really a case of lack of interest. :hugs:Kitty

[battybattybats]

It always amuses me when people, myself included, fail to see the similarities in our differences.

The Cd'er feels upset because the SO isn't participating enough or excited enough in crossdressing activities and takes this as a rejection of an important part of their life/self and further as a rejection of them.

The SO feels upset because the CD'er isn't participating enough or excited enough in non-crossdressing activities and takes this as a rejection of an important part of their life/self and further as a rejection of them.

Look how many words change in those sentances :devil:

The differences are minimal. The differences in the reactions are small, significant but still not all that important. The really important bit is that each is experiencing almost exactly the same thing on opposite sides of the fence and each seems to be mystified by the others reactions and in all probability ascribing all sorts of motivations and explanations from their own projected fears. Both are probably accusing the other of selfishness, a lack of understanding and think that the degree of participation that they are performing and acceptance that they are showing is more, or more important, than the others when actually they are each uniquely situated to understand the others feelings except that they are each unable to see past the issue in the middle.

[renee99]

Well, crossdressing is considered a special request by any GG who isn't into it. Above and beyond the call of duty. Like watching football or golf or Nascar. PRoblem is most guys aren't turned on by football or golf or Nascar but most CDs are turned on by crossdressing. So the spouse's involvement level then becomes related to the sexual health of the relationship. Don't know how many times I heard "Why can't you just be a MAN?" I am a man in case you didn't notice... doing all the manly things expected of me. And she did notice, eventually, that I wasn't planning to compete with her as a woman, that the manly duties would still be taken care of no matter how I looked or felt. Even if I am dressed in women's clothes and feeling bi and talking about piercings and cosmetic surgery and hair removal and T blockers, the manly duties are still taken care of. I think that is a huge security blanket to a GG when they realize that the male role and responsibilities in the relationship will always be taken care of even if their husband doesn't necessarily FEEL much like a man.

I also think the relationship improves when partners seek out ways in which they can indulge each other, instead of saying 'eww' and refusing to participate in things that they aren't interested in. Of course if one or the other does something that's absolutely disgusting to the SO, it's time to rethink the relationship.

[Satrana]

The Cd'er feels upset because the SO isn't participating enough or excited enough in crossdressing activities and takes this as a rejection of an important part of their life/self and further as a rejection of them.

The SO feels upset because the CD'er isn't participating enough or excited enough in non-crossdressing activities and takes this as a rejection of an important part of their life/self and further as a rejection of them.


Yup, crossdressing is often tackled by couples by reverting to the standard man-woman trench warfare system, both sides lobbing grenades at each other from their fortified bunkers, both believing their issues are more important than their partners and being annoyed why the other does not acknowledge this fact and surrender.

The first thing which happens in a power struggle is that respect for each other disappears, empathy vanishes, fustration sets in and grand stories of ulterior motives are written. And once this has started it can be a deep rut to climb out of. What is needed is for both parties to set aside their combative stances and have a heart-to-heart and approach the topic with love, compassion and understanding. Hugs and reassurances are required not incriminations.

[kittypw GG]

Well, crossdressing is considered a special request by any GG who isn't into it. Above and beyond the call of duty. Like watching football or golf or Nascar. PRoblem is most guys aren't turned on by football or golf or Nascar but most CDs are turned on by crossdressing. So the spouse's involvement level then becomes related to the sexual health of the relationship. Don't know how many times I heard "Why can't you just be a MAN?" I am a man in case you didn't notice... doing all the manly things expected of me. And she did notice, eventually, that I wasn't planning to compete with her as a woman, that the manly duties would still be taken care of no matter how I looked or felt. Even if I am dressed in women's clothes and feeling bi and talking about piercings and cosmetic surgery and hair removal and T blockers, the manly duties are still taken care of. I think that is a huge security blanket to a GG when they realize that the male role and responsibilities in the relationship will always be taken care of even if their husband doesn't necessarily FEEL much like a man.

I also think the relationship improves when partners seek out ways in which they can indulge each other, instead of saying 'eww' and refusing to participate in things that they aren't interested in. Of course if one or the other does something that's absolutely disgusting to the SO, it's time to rethink the relationship.

I agree Renee but also keep in mind that crossdressing is not as socially acceptable as nascar or football and the wife is void of the same sympathies when she tells people how isolated and lonly she feels because her hubby is so into crossdressing and doesn't make her feel loved anymore.

I also agree with the importance in a healty sexual life crossdressing plays for the CD'er. You mentioned the "feeling bi" part and my neck hair goes up a little. This is the number one thing that spouses are afraid of. That their man will want to find sexual gratification from other men or tg's. The CD needs to reassure the SO that that will not happen. I think this is the number one confusion for me personally. I know that my hubby is heterosexual but he has read stories about men forcing other men to dress and engage in sexual acts.
0n one level I understand that it is fantasy and a lack of sexual material involving hetero CD couples. But on the other hand I have no personal reference within myself to really understand why someone would want to do that.

I watched a talk show the other day that had on hetero couples where the roles were reversed. The husbands were more feminine in their likes and dislikes and the women did all of the dirty work. One hubby spends lots of time in front of the mirror and places great care with his male look. (side note he was an example of how much variety in mens clothes there is. lots of colors and materials but made for men) His wife's complaints could have come right out of a CD wifes mouth. They were one and the same. I think this pretty much proves your points Batty and Satrana.

We all need to think beyond the act of crossdressing and address the behavior that illicits the negative response. This should be true for both partners. Then we could get on about having the relationships we should be having. Ones with mutual respect and an abundance of love. Oh but how to get there............................................. ... ? :love:Kitty

Great discussion everyone.

[renee99]

Bi feelings have more to do with desires of feeling penetrated or feeling submissive and desirable, as the sex object, than they do actually desiring a relationship with a man. A man is just the most convenient thing that can make a CD feel like a woman. (I think that the CD having feelings of wanting to be the sex object is what gives some SOs a feeling that they are being competed with. Sounds to me like an opportunity for some play if the SO could get over her insecurity.)

It is possible for a CD's bi feelings to be fulfilled within a hetero relationship if the partner is open minded about it and obviously if there's enough give and take in the relationship to warrant doing what a straight wife would consider oddball things in the bedroom, i.e. things lesbians would enjoy.

Of course there are CDs for whom it's just not enough that their wife is willing to take a dominant role in bed. If this is the case, they had better damn well decide what they really want and make sure their wife is in on the arrangement, like Richard (Alice) Novic did. Cheating, or even exploring the idea of cheating, is just another deceptive, evasive, passive aggressive behavior and I believe it should seriously call the relationship into question. If the CD feels he is left with no option but to cheat in order to get what he wants, he's in the wrong relationship.

I would also suggest that someone like your husband who displays compulsive and depressive behavior at the same thing seriously needs to talk to someone. First he needs to figure out if his CDing is just acting out on a personality disorder that he needs to address separately.

He also needs to figure out if he is a CD or a TG and you need to be in on the answer. The reason I think he might be unsure is because it is very tempting to sneak around and be evasive when a CD is trying to figure this out, for many reasons. It will benefit both of you if he can figure it out sooner rather than later, so you can get on with your lives and figure out if you are in each other's future.

[Dixie]

My wife and I are on that same page and it's great!!

[battybattybats]

The trouble with determining things quickly is that someone could still be in a state of self-denial without realising it and sometimes self exploration just takes time. Besides, a relationship needs to include room for change and growth. People aren't static things and while there might be added security if they were, trying to insist people don't change or grow over time just makes the relationship stiffling and suffocating. Of course the thought of change, especially change as drastic as someone who thought they were a CD and discovers they are TS can be very scary to some. There have also been at least a few CD's who think they are TS because of the 'must be one or the other' view of gender, some have even gone as far as surgery before discovering there mistake.

Still, many (most?) TS know they are from a very early age. Talking to a proffessional psychologist especially with some experience in the field could help him discover for sure.

[kittypw GG]

Bi feelings have more to do with desires of feeling penetrated or feeling submissive and desirable, as the sex object, than they do actually desiring a relationship with a man. A man is just the most convenient thing that can make a CD feel like a woman. (I think that the CD having feelings of wanting to be the sex object is what gives some SOs a feeling that they are being competed with. Sounds to me like an opportunity for some play if the SO could get over her insecurity.)

It is possible for a CD's bi feelings to be fulfilled within a hetero relationship if the partner is open minded about it and obviously if there's enough give and take in the relationship to warrant doing what a straight wife would consider oddball things in the bedroom, i.e. things lesbians would enjoy.

Of course there are CDs for whom it's just not enough that their wife is willing to take a dominant role in bed. If this is the case, they had better damn well decide what they really want and make sure their wife is in on the arrangement, like Richard (Alice) Novic did. Cheating, or even exploring the idea of cheating, is just another deceptive, evasive, passive aggressive behavior and I believe it should seriously call the relationship into question. If the CD feels he is left with no option but to cheat in order to get what he wants, he's in the wrong relationship.

I would also suggest that someone like your husband who displays compulsive and depressive behavior at the same thing seriously needs to talk to someone. First he needs to figure out if his CDing is just acting out on a personality disorder that he needs to address separately.

He also needs to figure out if he is a CD or a TG and you need to be in on the answer. The reason I think he might be unsure is because it is very tempting to sneak around and be evasive when a CD is trying to figure this out, for many reasons. It will benefit both of you if he can figure it out sooner rather than later, so you can get on with your lives and figure out if you are in each other's future.


I agree and most wives would be willing to explore being "dominant" in the bedroom. The only thing is that a lot of women have seen what their acceptance causes in the CD, the dreaded "pink fog". Then this fear is applied to trying things in the bedroom. I certainly don't want to be dominant in the bedroom all of the time, so one fears that will be the case if satifying the "bi" fantasies are intertained. Most people don't want a steady diet of one thing. I love variety but the "pink fog" limits variety in the relationship.

Not letting your spouse in on your true self and secretly acting it out can have devistating consequences for the unsuspecting spouse. I have seen it happen. Wife goes to the doctor cause she can't shake the "flu" and finds out she is not only HIV pos but she has such a low T-cell count that the "flu" that she has is a life threatening rare or terminal illness that medication will not take care of. Putting someone in this kind of harm is illegal and could and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. IMHO.

Depression and personality disorders are separate issues. Gender identity can be a part of those disorders. for example borderline personality disorder can have a gender confusion component because of a lack of core personality. One does need to address these issues. The sad part is that sometimes other people can see the problem but the one afflicted. Getting someone to address their issues is almost impossible if they don't think they have any. If that person refuses to see the problem (like batty said, you can't fix something without acknowledging what is broken) then one has to make some tuff personal decisions on wether or not to stay and work it out. This is very a very tough decision to make because every relationship has an up side and we tend to cling to that up side as proof that things could work out.

:love: Kitty

[Josephine 1941]

Hi Kittypw GG,

I guess i am in the minorty, I have had sex with a couple of men an found that I don't like it better, I like being with women. Sex is an animal instink we all have the same drive. I have found that the drive is the same for me anyway. My girl friend an I reverse role at times durning the love makeing. For us we love one another an the act gives you the same felling wether male or female. Is a soul male or female , unlike the body that we can't control. To find a mate that accepts you no matter how you appear is what I think all of us are looking for. I am very much at ease when I dress in MY female cloths an my girl friend knows it an accepts it. She at times perfers me as her girl friend an I think that is a key that a lot of CDs miss. When in my female mode I am her best girl friend, an as you all know a girl friend you can tell all too. What better than a Cd,she/male or what ever role we want to be know as it can only make the relationship better. For me I have what I hope will be a long an great relationship with a very great women that I have learned to love all ways .
Josephine

[battybattybats]

Depression and personality disorders are separate issues. Gender identity can be a part of those disorders. for example borderline personality disorder can have a gender confusion component because of a lack of core personality. One does need to address these issues. The sad part is that sometimes other people can see the problem but the one afflicted. Getting someone to address their issues is almost impossible if they don't think they have any. If that person refuses to see the problem (like batty said, you can't fix something without acknowledging what is broken) then one has to make some tuff personal decisions on wether or not to stay and work it out. This is very a very tough decision to make because every relationship has an up side and we tend to cling to that up side as proof that things could work out.


Depression can exascerbate things on either side. It and personality disorders are all rather common and with their own sets of problems which would have a profound effect on all aspects of life, this included. Determining its effects on an individuals gender identity/expression is definately the realm of proper medical professionals, (I've been checked, I just have anxiety issues from repressing my dressing).
As for people failing to see problems, well as long as people refuse to doubt, refuse contrary evidence, refuse to acknowledge appropriate expertise and instead have blind faith in there own view/judgement then their is no hope of convincing them. I have literally placed incontrovertable proof once under the nose of someone and still had them ignore it, worse than the priest who would not look through Gallileo's telescope.
Still sometimes, in their own time, even these people can come round.

As for the pink fog, sure that is a definate difficulty. Like a starving man who binges till they are sick once good food is found we can be catapulted into a frenzy of over indulgence and it's not easy to restrain. Still with time and understanding a comfortable equilibrium might be reached.

As for dominance in the bedroom, I'm sure it's like any other activity there. Monotony is well, monotonous. Each persons desires and needs have to be considered, variety is important and communication is again paramount. It's just another bedroom thing like all the other possible bedroom things and again like the other issues in the relationship the same rules apply regardless.
Of course femininity need not neccessarily be submissive.

[Jammie Lyann]

Kitty
I think you hit the nail on the head, I tend to fall into that area,
I also know that I do. I been that way for as long as I can remember,
been with my current wife 8 years, she has only known about my desires to dress for close to a year. she has complained many time about my lack of wanting to go out an get involved with others.
she goes to church an does events for them an has ask me on many occassions if I would go along, Im not much for meeting new people because
the way I see it the less friends I have the less I can get hurt, if they find out. I associate with people I work with but I do not befriend them.
I go to work an come home I dont like to travel to much, or leave the house very often cause I feel safe here. I have never been much of a people person
I get along with people ok, just dont like to get involved with them.
My wife makes friends with everyone, me Im very selective when befriending someone.
Dont get me wrong if someone needs a shoulder to cry on or an ear to listen I can be there for them,
Im not sure how I can come to a comman ground on this with my wife, or if I ever will.
I dont think for myself that being a cd has much bearing on the fact that I live like a Hermit,sence like I said Ive been suclusive most of my life.
but might have to some degree an involvment in it.
Ivey

[kittypw GG]

Josephine,
So very happy for you dear. :love: We all want what you have.

Batty,
You are so right, feminity need not be submissive. All women have a male component its magnitude varies within individuals. It is just getting to a comprimise and I am as guily of struggeling to comprimise as any.

Just this morning I had to use my hubby's lap top. I clicked on fav's cause I saved the web site previously that I wanted to go to there. I found all kinds of web sites on my hubby's favs that were for CD's, shopping, stories chatting etc. The normal stuff that comes along with a CD support site. I instantly became uncomfortable and started to interogate my hubby. He became angry that I was snooping. Since I have been having this dialoge in this post I have tried to think a new way. I think what I was feeling was a lack of trust and it is fear based. I said to my hubby that I will have faith that he is trustworthy and not get upset about what sites he is visiting. There are lots of "tag-a-long" things that come with tg sites that could make a SO nerveous but that does not mean that he is engaging in those things.

I think I might have made a positive step. We did not have a huge argument and he denies that he is angry. What did I tell you, most of my dislike of his crossdressing is based in fear. I find crossdressing very sexy at times and I concider myself mostly accepting. Imagine what a SO feels when they are hit with this information by accident? WOW no wonder we struggle so.
:hugs: Kitty

[renee99]

Of course femininity need not neccessarily be submissive.

There is a huge thread on precisely this topic, in the MHB boards, under Sex & Sensibility titled "the sexuality issue". I would link to it but you have to be registered to read it. The discussion centers around how important it is in a CD relationship for both partners to discard stereotypes of sex and just get over themselves and be willing to please the other. That includes the CD who can't get his motor running, as one poster replied, he's got five digits and two hands for a reason. It also includes those who insist that feminine=bottom and masculine=top, or dominant=top and submissive=bottom, etc. Kind of goes into the orthogonality of all those concepts.

[kittypw GG]

Kitty
I think you hit the nail on the head, I tend to fall into that area,
I also know that I do. I been that way for as long as I can remember,
been with my current wife 8 years, she has only known about my desires to dress for close to a year. she has complained many time about my lack of wanting to go out an get involved with others.
she goes to church an does events for them an has ask me on many occassions if I would go along, Im not much for meeting new people because
the way I see it the less friends I have the less I can get hurt, if they find out. I associate with people I work with but I do not befriend them.
I go to work an come home I dont like to travel to much, or leave the house very often cause I feel safe here. I have never been much of a people person
I get along with people ok, just dont like to get involved with them.
My wife makes friends with everyone, me Im very selective when befriending someone.
Dont get me wrong if someone needs a shoulder to cry on or an ear to listen I can be there for them,
Im not sure how I can come to a comman ground on this with my wife, or if I ever will.
I dont think for myself that being a cd has much bearing on the fact that I live like a Hermit,sence like I said Ive been suclusive most of my life.
but might have to some degree an involvment in it.
Ivey

Ivey, self protection is a good thing but you are in a situation that requires your participation. If you explain your fears to your wife and try to be a little more social I am sure she will be very pleased and see the effort you are making for her. If you don't communicate how you feel she has no other recourse but to make up what she THINKS you are trying to convey by your lack of participation in a social life. She may think you are too indulgent in the crossdressing, or accuse you of being passive aggressive and punishing.
Maybe you should talk to a professional about your fears so that you can work towards minimizing them. Fear is a prision and keeps you from having a good and meaningful life. Take care :hugs:Kitty

[Josephine 1941]

Hi Kitty,

Again I will put my 3 cents in. I think you are a very brave young women to get out here to learn about what your husband is into there should be more like you. I hope your husband is reading all this advice that us girls are giving you. I for one am very inpressed with all the different takes . Good luck will continue to read an learn

Josephine

[Satrana]

I instantly became uncomfortable and started to interogate my hubby. He became angry that I was snooping.

As you have said, it is your fear that is making you feel uncomfortable. The best way to catch this is to compare how you would react if your husband was a golfer and you found golfing sites on his favorite list. If the crossdressing itself is not a problem then stop making it the issue.

The basic idea here is your negative view of crossdressing and your insecurities which in turn drives your behavior towards your husband's crossdressing. Although you say you find CDing sexy, you are fearful of its consequences and it is this fear which presently dominates your attitude.

I think relationships in general take a turn for the worse when one spouse stops seeing the positive in their partner. If you love your partner and wish to remain together then this can only be achieved by staying positive, optimistic and trusting your partner. A big part of maintaining relationships is mindset and staying upbeat and reminding yourself why your love your partner. Crossdressing does not have to be a problem if you approach it with the right mindset.

I am happy to hear that you are trying a new approach, I hope this really pays dividends. Of course your hubby should also respond in kind by changing his own mindset to be less defensive and to let you into his thoughts and emotions without anger.

[battybattybats]

And after all, even though you didn't intend to look at the things he had placed in the favourites list, from the moment you started paying more than a moments attention to them and especfially when you started to interrogate your husband you were snooping. I'd be angry in that situation too (and was when I have been). That he got over that indignity to his privacy when you changed tack and said you'd trust him was very good of him and helped you both resolve the situation.

Now that you have identified a big source of problem for you, your fears, the next step is to overcome those fears. For some just the realisation that the fear is the cause can be enough for the fear to evaporate, for others it's not so easy. So how best to overcome those fears?

[kittypw GG]

I think relationships in general take a turn for the worse when one spouse stops seeing the positive in their partner. If you love your partner and wish to remain together then this can only be achieved by staying positive, optimistic and trusting your partner. A big part of maintaining relationships is mindset and staying upbeat and reminding yourself why your love your partner. Crossdressing does not have to be a problem if you approach it with the right mindset.

.

These words should be applied to the CD as well. This is another problem with many CD relationships where the wife is struggeling to accept. The anger the CD feels towards the spouse because they feel controlled and are impatient because they want the acceptance and participation now.

When the CD gets angry at the spouse it starts to seem like that is all they want from the spouse. Some CD's never come up with any other activity that they want to do with the spouse. Over time the spouse starts to feel like their only purpose is to make the CD feel ok with everything and to help him obtain clothes so that he won't be embarassed. It becomes very one sided and I myself have felt sort of "used" if you will. Sort of like pretending you are a gay man's girlfriend so that he looks "normal" in the eyes of the general public or to his family. I have felt this way at times, like I am only good for something as long as it involves crossdressing and making him feel ok with it.

Sometimes it is exhausting for a spouse to constantly keep reassuring the CD that they are ok and not a weirdo for wanting to dress like a girl. This is exactly why I preach self acceptance. Through self acceptance you find peace of mind and confidence. You are less needy of your spouse and can move towards an equal relationship and mutual satisfaction. It is true that each partner needs to take responsibility for their own actions. :hugs: Kitty

[battybattybats]

These words should be applied to the CD as well. This is another problem with many CD relationships where the wife is struggeling to accept. The anger the CD feels towards the spouse because they feel controlled and are impatient because they want the acceptance and participation now.

When the CD gets angry at the spouse it starts to seem like that is all they want from the spouse. Some CD's never come up with any other activity that they want to do with the spouse. Over time the spouse starts to feel like their only purpose is to make the CD feel ok with everything and to help him obtain clothes so that he won't be embarassed. It becomes very one sided and I myself have felt sort of "used" if you will. Sort of like pretending you are a gay man's girlfriend so that he looks "normal" in the eyes of the general public or to his family. I have felt this way at times, like I am only good for something as long as it involves crossdressing and making him feel ok with it.

Sometimes it is exhausting for a spouse to constantly keep reassuring the CD that they are ok and not a weirdo for wanting to dress like a girl. This is exactly why I preach self acceptance. Through self acceptance you find peace of mind and confidence. You are less needy of your spouse and can move towards an equal relationship and mutual satisfaction. It is true that each partner needs to take responsibility for their own actions. :hugs: Kitty

There are a lot of seems and feel like statements there, and the way something seems isn't necessarily the way it is. Part of responsibility is being responsible for your own emotional reactions, and also to challenge the validity of the way things seem to see if that is the way they actually are. Perception after all is always flawed.

Even more importantly, while it is understandable that the CD might be looking for some validation and support from their SO if it's getting to the point of constant reassurance there is something wrong. The SO is not the CD's therapist after all. If the CD's issues with their dressing are so strong that they need constant reassurance it sounds like time to go to a qualified proffessional. If the CD only wants to participate in dressing activities maybe they want to dress full-time? Or... maybe they are focusing on dressing as a way to try and cope with a deep-seated fear and lack of self-acceptance.. it's hard to avoid it when you are in a skirt.

Another possibility is that the acceptance the CD is getting may feel/seem half-hearted or tentative to them. They might also have trouble believing it's real... which isn't surprising if the CD can't accept themselves. Mind you, self acceptance isn't easy.

[Rita B]

The first paragraph of your thread describe me to a tee. The only problem is that my SO ( wife) would never tolerate my CDing. I am depressed most of the time. I have no friends. My only contacts are immediate family, ( my wife and her family). I really do not understand why we stayed married. My wife is on holiday for 3 weeks ( until the 29th) and I have come out of the closet , just a little. Bought a few things, put some make up on. Today I am going to buy a wig and a camera. I know it's a temporary thing until she comes back. I have to do something. I can't go on denying what I am. Actually, a spring chicken, I am not. . .haha

[kittypw GG]

The first paragraph of your thread describe me to a tee. The only problem is that my SO ( wife) would never tolerate my CDing. I am depressed most of the time. I have no friends. My only contacts are immediate family, ( my wife and her family). I really do not understand why we stayed married. My wife is on holiday for 3 weeks ( until the 29th) and I have come out of the closet , just a little. Bought a few things, put some make up on. Today I am going to buy a wig and a camera. I know it's a temporary thing until she comes back. I have to do something. I can't go on denying what I am. Actually, a spring chicken, I am not. . .haha

How do you know if your wife would never tolerate your CD'ing. There are a few wives that were dead set against it to start and now it it totally a different story. Check out the posts of Sandra GG for example.

If you fee bad about who and what you are then your body language probably reflects that and people will respond to you the way you feel about yourself. If you work on accepting this part of you and keep it real and balanced then what choice does a spouse have if they want to stay with you. The balance and reality part make it possible to stay. If she can't tolerate seeing you "dressed" then there are ways to work that out as well as many here do.

One of the points that I have been trying to make in this thread is that wives may be more accepting than they seem but bad communication is often at fault for the hurt feelings and non acceptance, crossdressing just gets the blame.

Batty makes a good point, and I should plaster it all over the house. THINK before you assume. ASK for clarification before you jump to anger. Often times you will find something very different behind the supossed non acceptance. (again these words apply to both partners)

Best wishes Classy, find out who you are and give yourself the respect you deserve. Your wife will fall in line and if she doesn't then maybe she is not the right one for you. Give it a lot of time though and be patient with not just her but with yoursef. Forgive yourself for your mistakes but remember that the desire to crossdress is something that is hardwired in your brain probably from birth and you did not make that happen nor do you have control wether or not that desire exists. What you do have control over is your behavior and how you think and feel about yourself. Remember the law of attraction.
:love: Kitty

[kittypw GG]

As you have said, it is your fear that is making you feel uncomfortable. The best way to catch this is to compare how you would react if your husband was a golfer and you found golfing sites on his favorite list. If the crossdressing itself is not a problem then stop making it the issue.

The basic idea here is your negative view of crossdressing and your insecurities which in turn drives your behavior towards your husband's crossdressing. Although you say you find CDing sexy, you are fearful of its consequences and it is this fear which presently dominates your attitude.

I think relationships in general take a turn for the worse when one spouse stops seeing the positive in their partner. If you love your partner and wish to remain together then this can only be achieved by staying positive, optimistic and trusting your partner. A big part of maintaining relationships is mindset and staying upbeat and reminding yourself why your love your partner. Crossdressing does not have to be a problem if you approach it with the right mindset.

I am happy to hear that you are trying a new approach, I hope this really pays dividends. Of course your hubby should also respond in kind by changing his own mindset to be less defensive and to let you into his thoughts and emotions without anger.


I understand what you are saying Satrana but your golf example is sort of flawed. When you go to golfing sites you don't find the sexual component, other golfers may be trying to pick eachother up for sexual encounters but it usually isn't a part of the web site. The sexual component triggers emotions and questions in the spouse. Are you gay? Do you want to be a women and then have sex with men? etc. Many women have been cheated on and most fear that it will happen so the sexual component triggers a different set of fears. That is what I was trying to get to when I was looking at my hubby's fav's list. TG web sites have lots of components and us wives need to trust that our hubbies will be faithful and not just assume they are taking part in that sexual component. Some husbands are just not faithful so a little suspicion is necessary for self preservation but it is a fine line and sometimes that line is crossed.

I totally agree with almost everything that you said. This dialogue is helping me a great deal. I hope that others find some wisdom and a new way as well.
:love: Kitty

[renee99]

I understand what you are saying Satrana but your golf example is sort of flawed. When you go to golfing sites you don't find the sexual component, other golfers may be trying to pick eachother up for sexual encounters but it usually isn't a part of the web site.
Hmm, I guess I visit different golf sites:
http://bl.net/forwards/bedgolf.html
:-)

[Toyah]

I think what you are relating to is men in general we dont want to go out socialising on others terms
As for the expresing the feelings thing dont go there

[Josephine 1941]

Hi Kitty,

Still at it I see , you are now on a roller coster damd if you do dam if you don't. I still have not seen anything from your hubbie, what dose he think of all that is going on about your post . Like I said before I hope he is reading all of your replys. I bet you are getting a lot of private msg too.


Josephine

[Satrana]

These words should be applied to the CD as well. Absolutely, all partnerships need equal involvement and effort from both parties. It is clear from your descriptions that your husband has much work to do himself to steer your relationship to calmer waters.



It becomes very one sided and I myself have felt sort of "used" if you will. Sort of like pretending you are a gay man's girlfriend so that he looks "normal" in the eyes of the general public or to his family.
That is not a good sign, if his own self acceptance is lacking the this will make everything more difficult. You have explained previously how much you were involved and assisted in his crossdressing, I think that might have backfired as he has come to rely on you too much as a safety blanket. I would suggest that you consider withdrawing from all activities which assist him from confronting his own fears and shame. Let him go out by himself, let him buy his own clothes, let him dress himself and apply his own makeup etc. Treat his crossdressing as a normal thing, don't emphasize it as anything special.

He needs to reach a point where he understands that crossdressing is a means of self expression and is no different from when he is dressing en drab. It is just another set of clothes, a uniform which aids him to connect to his feminine side. Ultimately that is all crossdressing is, a tool to overcome social gender conditioning and to allow him to express his whole personality. Ideally the two sides of his personality will merge and he will feel comfortable accessing his feminine emotions without the necessity of emulating a woman.

[Satrana]

I understand what you are saying Satrana but your golf example is sort of flawed.

Agreed, it is not perfect because crossdressing is more than a hobby and does have other components as you say. But, my point was not to find an exact anology but to point out that you should aim to think about crossdressing as if it were golf. In other words, learn to normalize your views of crossdressing and stop thinking of it as a special deal (the same advice to CDs as well)

Think of this - if he was a golfer and you saw the golf links, would your thoughts be - "these golf sites have forums, and there a women golfers, is my hubby using these golf sites to chat to women to arrange dates". In truth there are millions of sexual images everywhere and infinite opportunities for any man to cheat on his spouse if that is what he wants to do. Cheating has got nothing to do with crossdressing, just as it has got nothing to do with golf either.

I know there are sexual issues attached to crossdressing and you can see these for yourself, but crossdressing does not in any way encourage cheating by itself. IMHO, crossdressers are less likely to cheat than non-CD men because our feelings and emotions towards women and ourselves are different. Ask your husband about this - what does he want from the relationship?, how does he view women? does he want to experiment with men?

This all goes back to mindset. If your husband has done nothing to suggest that he is or wants to cheat on you, then you need to cast your fear aside and trust and believe in him. Stay positive and avoid negativity if there is no basis to be suspicious in his actions in the real world, not the fantasy world of the internet.

Love and trust are partially based on blind faith. If you try to remove that blind faith by always being suspicious and checking, then you lose the love and trust.:2c:

[kittypw GG]

Hi Kitty,

Still at it I see , you are now on a roller coster damd if you do dam if you don't. I still have not seen anything from your hubbie, what dose he think of all that is going on about your post . Like I said before I hope he is reading all of your replys. I bet you are getting a lot of private msg too.


Josephine

I am not sure what you mean by being "still at it"? I hope to be "still at it" until I find a balance for myself with the crossdressing. I have been trying to keep things broad so that I can help others in the process. In case you didn't notice some gg's have given up discussing issues about their hubby's crossdressing in the mtf forum because of the ridicule that they get. I did not want this to be a debate aobut my personal relationship. In defense of my hubby, there are two sides to every story and I am sure if he were more like me he would be telling somewhat of a different story, his slant on the issues concerning SO's acceptance or lack of. There are always two sides to every story.

It doesn't help to bash the CD when the SO complains about issues with the crossdressing. Bashing nor making my hubby look bad was NOT my purpose in wanting to have this discussion. These are REAL concerns that gg's have from the eyes of a gg. I was looking for the perspective of REAL CD's so that I might be enlightened and find a better comfort level with crossdressing and all that it entails.

Rollercoaster? Damn right it feels like a rollercoaster, just ask any gg who is not afraid of answering honestly.

I thank everyone who participated in a very enlightening conversation about gg concerns. Especially Batty and Satrana. Your words gave me food for thought and helped me grow in my thinking.

I would still like to read more thoughts on how gg's can gain balance and achieve better communication with their seemingly reclusive and quiet CD hubbies if anyone wants to contribute, but lets not bash anyone ok? Nobody is helped by being bashed or put down and isn't helping the whole purpose of this forum?

:love: Kitty

[Andi]

Kitty, I too am much of what you described as the CDer except - When we were married 41 years ago I pledged to give 90% to my SO and expect only 10% in return. She too behaves the same way, that's how we got to 41 years. The CD issue has come and gone a few times but she just can't be involved with it so I don't make an issue out of it. When you say you love someone it is a lifelong commitment where you want what's best for that person and you want them to be as happy as they can be. I sympathize with all GG's who are "expected" to deal with this because it just isn't possible for some. I sympathize with those CDer's who don't understand how to maintain a true relationship with their SO given their predispostion. It's not about blind acceptance by both and it's not about giving in totally to the wishes of the other. It's a squiggly path to navigate but with mutual love and trust it can be done and both will have a loving relationship with each other.

[kittypw GG]

Kitty, I too am much of what you described as the CDer except - When we were married 41 years ago I pledged to give 90% to my SO and expect only 10% in return. She too behaves the same way, that's how we got to 41 years. The CD issue has come and gone a few times but she just can't be involved with it so I don't make an issue out of it. When you say you love someone it is a lifelong commitment where you want what's best for that person and you want them to be as happy as they can be. I sympathize with all GG's who are "expected" to deal with this because it just isn't possible for some. I sympathize with those CDer's who don't understand how to maintain a true relationship with their SO given their predispostion. It's not about blind acceptance by both and it's not about giving in totally to the wishes of the other. It's a squiggly path to navigate but with mutual love and trust it can be done and both will have a loving relationship with each other.

Thank you Andi,
What a beautiful testiment to your love and relationship. :love: Kitty

[Josephine 1941]

Hi Kitty,
I am sorry if it seamed like I was bashing, I guess I am looking for input. My girl friend has accepted me from day One. Lucky I guess but she is a New York girl an lived in Manhatten, had many friend gay Cds les so she was exposed to my life style an more so with us it was no big deal. GGs in my mind are confused as why a man would like to dress, I guess looking at GGs in so many men cloths we are too. Being gay, Bi, or straight is each person own prefrance, but I do agree that if you have a husband or wife they need to know.

[Marcie Sexton]

Good questions, insightful...YES, complicated...perhaps for some yes, but not for me and my wife. Common ground between us has always been there, just a different, but much closer perspective...


Let me say that due to work constraints my wife indeed makes most plans, but she always runs them by me...In most cases we are both in agreement and carry them out to full enjoyment...

My wife is a real trooper...while at first she had a tough time, as most do I'm sure in coping with my dressing, the closeness and love never left...If any thing it made us stronger and closer...and continues to grow

While I'm not sure this is really the aswer one would expect, I have found that keeping an even keel between Marcie, myself and my wife has been rather easy. For us its a matter of sharing and being open and honest...

Perhaps the best ways to understand it all is to read a book authored by John Wooden, the coach of UCLA fame...Wooden on Leadership...This book while telling stories about his times of being a coach also stresses what he required of his players...It provides his pyramid of success, discussing how exactly to apply it to your life...Both I and my wife have invested the five to six hours required to read it and it has provided a perspective for both of us that we were aware of, but with a much clearer view and how to further strengthen our love, respect, resolve, and trust for each other...Well worth the 24.95, the price of the book...

I hope this is the type of answer you were looking for, perhaps a bit redundent, but it is, has, and is still working for us...:happy:

[battybattybats]

An idea for an exercise for improving communication between a Cder and an SO.

'Girl Talk'
If the SO can handle this excersise with the CDer dressed it could very much help. The SO should suggest that a good way for the CD to explore their femme self would be to open up their emotional side and have a girl to girl talk. Each gets to ask a question about something from the others life but must answer the same question themselves. These things should start light and get slowly more deep, from things like the favourite pet-related memory to first experience with the grief of death. Lots of 'how did you cope with that/react with that?' questions are encouraged.

Some iportant rules:
1, If a question is answered that you asked then you must give your own answer
2. Either can pass a question the other has asked and neither then answers the question
3. Either can stop the game at any time
4. Absolutely no questions relating to the current relationship or current crossdressing (perhaps all crossdressing?) are allowed - this exercise is to free up the rest of communication, emotional understanding and general understanding of each other.
5. Absolutely no judgement is allowed! These are deep emotional confessions, not an opertunity to hold court.

What does everyone think of the idea?

[kittypw GG]

Marcie, I love autobiographies and will have to pick up a copy. Sometimes a little inspiration is all one needs.

Batty, Love the new avatar dear. Very, cute. :happy:
I had my hubby read your reply and he agreed to try it. :D I think this might start things off. I would maybe add to your rules list that what ever is revieled during these communication sessions can not be used against the other in the heat of an argument.

Do you think that communication might be easier because he would not be wearing the "uniform" of his man self? I mean, sort of like talking in the dark, it is just easier. If this is the case then one needs to eventually work on being a better communicator in the man "uniform" as well.

Good suggestions, I will let you know how it goes. Since we have a graduation comming up, there won't be much time till Sunday. Sounds like a nice activity to relax with and start that process. :hugs: Kitty

[battybattybats]

Batty, Love the new avatar dear. Very, cute. :happy:
I had my hubby read your reply and he agreed to try it. :D I think this might start things off. I would maybe add to your rules list that what ever is revieled during these communication sessions can not be used against the other in the heat of an argument.

Do you think that communication might be easier because he would not be wearing the "uniform" of his man self? I mean, sort of like talking in the dark, it is just easier. If this is the case then one needs to eventually work on being a better communicator in the man "uniform" as well.


Thanks!
Good point, absolutely that should also be a rule.
I think the not wearing the male 'uniform' is one part as you say, but also by wearing the female clothes it could help him feel more open to exploring his feelings, the ultimate male taboo. Also many CDers tend to feel more confidant and comfortable in some respects in their femme gear, making the whole exercise easier. I think this exercise would help both overall relate to their partner, to their partners feelings, to their own emotions which would help communication in the long term whatever the side being worn. Once he's more in touch with his feelings in girl mode, then he can start to work on them in guy mode. At any rate its a chance to learn more about each other, the kind of things that might not ever be discussed.

[battybattybats]

You know DarleneHoney, you just validated many of my views that crossdressing really has very little to do with anything, because you could have been talking about my relationship there and in fact have echoed many pieces of advice given to me by family, friends and mental health professionals..

And indeed much of the replies would give the CD's side, because after all it is mostly us CD's that are answering. Though I do agree that some could address more the broad general hypothetical than any particular persons relationship.

We should all certainly appllaud Kitty for having the courage to ask these questions, to listen to our answers and whatever she chooses for herself and for her relationship I admire her and support her for it.

Hmm.. and this reminds me of another observation I wanted to make about men in general (and again this is a broad generalisation) and one that I can be guilty of myself. Many men I've known are (in my view) self centred, but not selfish. Rather than knowingly choosing their own wants over others needs (which is how I define selfishness) they are just generally oblivious of how their actions or choices might impact on others. This isn't wilful but is partly a preoccupation with there own circumstance, partly a lack of social awareness that comes from the differing social structures that men opperate under and partly due to the emotional repression or stunted growth imposed on many boys.

Empathy and a consideration of others isn't heavily taught to boys, but there also seems to be a notion amongst many GG's I've known that it is proper to pre-empt anothers desires to ensure that your actions will consider these which is something I have had large problems with because many painful missunderstandings have come from incorrect assumptions of my wants or likely choices, from my failure to pre-empt such desires of GG's or even from my directly asking when I 'should just know'. This self-centredness or even just failing to make correct assumptions about others has been labeled selfish by some GG's which I don't think is correct.

Certainly though I think that most males could do well to be more aware of those around them, myself included and we could all do well from assuming less and asking more.

[Leah B]

This is the typical male's response to anything that threatens him. .

You know, I agree with 99% of your post, but this is a bit offensive. It's like saying "Typical for a woman to get all moody and cry about it." Offensive.

[Carin's Wife GG]

You know, I agree with 99&#37; of your post, but this is a bit offensive. It's like saying "Typical for a woman to get all moody and cry about it." Offensive.

my Carin is in no way selfish or inconsiderate and *I* find it offensive for her to be catagorized as such.



Louise.

[Satrana]

I think the not wearing the male 'uniform' is one part as you say, but also by wearing the female clothes it could help him feel more open to exploring his feelings, the ultimate male taboo.

I agree and I think this is a good example of a postive aspect of crossdressing which SOs should be taking advantage of. When their partner is crossdressed, SOs should take the opportunity to have emotive talks. Eventually once this has been practiced regularly whilst crossdressed, the CD will become comfortable enough to have these talks even when en drab. I think CDs should not just have fun when dressing but should also think about bettering themselves as persons by taking time to develop better emotive and communication skills which are not part and parcel of male conditioning.

[Satrana]

Dear Kitty,

After reading your case study and the posts it's obvious why the GG's keep their business out of this forum. You asked for feedback on a hypothetical situation and got attacked and ridiculed. This is the typical male's response to anything that threatens him. These folks may dress in women's clothes but let's face it, most of these people are still men, and act and react like men. Period.


Hmm....I will agree with the others and say this remark is deeply offensive to many members here who do not relate to men at all. This forum is trying to encourage understanding and empathy and your remarks come across as gratuitous and sexist. Crossdressers are far removed from "typical men", something which would be apparent if society's intolerence were removed and we could freely express ourselves.

[kittypw GG]

You know DarleneHoney, you just validated many of my views that crossdressing really has very little to do with anything, because you could have been talking about my relationship there and in fact have echoed many pieces of advice given to me by family, friends and mental health professionals..

And indeed much of the replies would give the CD's side, because after all it is mostly us CD's that are answering. Though I do agree that some could address more the broad general hypothetical than any particular persons relationship.

We should all certainly appllaud Kitty for having the courage to ask these questions, to listen to our answers and whatever she chooses for herself and for her relationship I admire her and support her for it.

Hmm.. and this reminds me of another observation I wanted to make about men in general (and again this is a broad generalisation) and one that I can be guilty of myself. Many men I've known are (in my view) self centred, but not selfish. Rather than knowingly choosing their own wants over others needs (which is how I define selfishness) they are just generally oblivious of how their actions or choices might impact on others. This isn't wilful but is partly a preoccupation with there own circumstance, partly a lack of social awareness that comes from the differing social structures that men opperate under and partly due to the emotional repression or stunted growth imposed on many boys.

Empathy and a consideration of others isn't heavily taught to boys, but there also seems to be a notion amongst many GG's I've known that it is proper to pre-empt anothers desires to ensure that your actions will consider these which is something I have had large problems with because many painful missunderstandings have come from incorrect assumptions of my wants or likely choices, from my failure to pre-empt such desires of GG's or even from my directly asking when I 'should just know'. This self-centredness or even just failing to make correct assumptions about others has been labeled selfish by some GG's which I don't think is correct.

Certainly though I think that most males could do well to be more aware of those around them, myself included and we could all do well from assuming less and asking more.

Wow Batty, again more food for thought.
I agree with your assesment of selfishness and gg's maybe missing the mark by confusing self-centerness with sefishness. I do agree that boys are taught to be self-centered and girls are taught to be selfless. Neither is right. Our children need to be taught the same regardless of their gender. Who says that girls make the best mothers? I have know men that nurture better than some females but our society puts those kinds of men down. Being stay at home dads is looked down on but why? If the women has the capicity to have higher earnings and the male wants to be home and be the "house wife" then why in hell do we all make such a big deal about it. I know some very career orientated women who would love a situation like that be they are told by other females that being career orientated is wrong in some way. Not all women are hardwired to be nurturing or loving. Just like not all men are hardwired to be tough and unemotional. Sometimes we are confused with what we are taught and what we actually feel inside.

No wonder we have problems communicating. Who decided the demarkation of duties and behaviors anyway? I think that in todays society gender roles have to be reassesed.

You are so right about assumptions. This is were we all go wrong. Many times direct communication would be so much easier if we left the assumptions we make first at the door. First the assumption of the meaning of the comment or action then the emotions that that assumption ilicits then the argument which comes to some crescendo. I don't know how many times this has happened in my relationship. All of the energy that we spent in negativity only to find that it was wasted on a wrong assumption. whew, I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

I think that this conversation makes a good argument to try your exercise in communication. I think if we get to know eachother better we will make fewer wrong assumptions in our communications. It is really hard to get to know someone who is introverted unless they make an effort. Introverts generally see extroverts as pushy and intrusive. Extroverts generall see introverts as weak and passive. Neither is reall totally true and again a wrong assumption.

I am really anxious to try the exercise. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks again for opening my eyes a little about this topic. :hugs::love: Kitty

[battybattybats]

It is really hard to get to know someone who is introverted unless they make an effort. Introverts generally see extroverts as pushy and intrusive. Extroverts generall see introverts as weak and passive. Neither is reall totally true and again a wrong assumption.


I've found dealing with introverts is like fishing, you have to lure them out gently.

[battybattybats]

I thought this concept deserves some more attention as this has been a great discussion. Does anyone have another 'case study' concept for us all to discuss?