TG/TS should they be in the Gay movement?

[janedoe311]

I have seen this mentioned over the years. When TG’s were “separate” from Gays I believe they were more acceptable. People especially the very religions (at least some) know that some TG’s are born that way, XXY Klinefelter Syndrome,, truly androgynous and intersexed etc, is something that can be proven with a medical exam and or blood testing. But to prove a person was “born” gay and he/she had no choice still cannot be proved.

It was mentioned that many TG after SRS completely remove themselves from the Gay and TG community. They are now “normal”.

My point is it a good idea for the TG community to be together with gay community, or should they be separate so they can deal with their concerns only?

[Sharon]

I disagree that transsexuals were ever more "acceptable" than we are now, and I don't think we have even done any more than scratch the surface towards real acceptance.

What's the harm in sharing a piece of the LGBT umbrella? With greater numbers fighting for the rights we all want, there is greater strength. When we strive for our deserved rights, we also strive for the rights of everyone in society, no matter what it is that casts us outside the "normal" realm.

Too many of the transgendered community are fearful of emerging from their respective closets, just as a great majority of homosexuals were not that long ago. They have fought the wars, have been amazingly successful in doing so despite even ongoing prejudice and ignorance, and we have a lot to learn from them in how to assert ourselves and how to educate the public about what we are and what we are not.

[Cai]

Many transgendered people start in the gay or lesbian communities before realizing fully who they are. So many of them have connections there, know people in those communities, etc.

Also, the gay/lesbian/bisexual community has resources for dealing with discrimination based on sexual preference, which is similar to discrimination based on gender identity. The gay community and the transgendered community have many similarities, and I believe that both groups can benefit from working together.

[Kimberley]

I agree with Sharon. I dont think we were ever accepted beyond lip service and in this little corner of the world, TG's were not welcomed into the Gay community. Today, I cant say because I just cant be bothered to find out. I guess at my age the need for socialization are somewhat diminished.

Still, we can try to make some inroads through the LGB community. We are a long way from any kind of real acceptance but we can hope that someday it will come.

As to post op's removing themselves, I dont know that is a given. We have more than a few active post op members here and they are a huge help. Maybe most go under the radar but that would be a personal choice and probably more rooted in "been there, done that and burned the Tee shirt" syndrome. Cant blame them really. I do know that I value the thoughts of Priss and others who do continue to help us with our struggles.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[cindianna_jones]

When it comes the fight for equal rights, I'll work with anyone in the mintority.

When it comes to social situations, I'll be friendly to anyone.

Whether someone wants to be friendly in return is up to them. I wish we could just all get along.

We need all the help we can get! FWIW, I had my surgery many years ago and do live a "normal heterosexual" life. BUT I DON'T CARE! We all deserve to be treated equally.

Cindi

[Robin Leigh]

Despite our differences, we have a common goal: respect and acceptance, or at least tolerance, for our differences from the norm. United, we have more political strength. Sometimes I do wonder if combining us all into one motley crowd does hurt our collective image. Phrases like "lowest common denominator" & "tarred with the same brush" spring to mind...

However, people that are homophobic are generally also transphobic, or to be more precise, they don't really care about the difference: we're all queer. And even more tolerant people may have difficulties: a friend who is a high-school teacher once "explained" to me that transsexual was just a more advanced form of homosexual. :rolleyes:

Of course, even under the LGBT umbrella there is still a lot of lack of respect. Gays & lesbians may not be transphobic per se, but a lot of them still think CDing is silly or politically dubious & that TS is weird or scary. A lot of MTF CDs want a wife and don't want her to think they are gay or TS, and may appear homophobic as a result. Et cetera.

I believe that acceptance for all of us is now better now than it ever was (at least, in the more civilized parts of the planet). The hard core homophobes/transphobes will never change, but the general public is slowly being educated & getting used to our presence. If we want this to improve further, I believe we need to respect & have pride in ourselves, as well as having respect for other members of the LGBT "community".

:hugs:

Robin

[MsJanessa]

There is strength in numbers and while many gay men don't particularly like us (we are too femme) the majority of them accept us. And what was said above is correct---the vast majority of the straight world unfortunatly views transexuals and other transgendered individuals, including cds, as freaks---they are more likely to accept gays and lesbians than us---the only time a T-girl is always accepted is if she is 100% passable(then nobody knows) ie petite, and very femme in looks and manner---the 6' tall beauty who still has the barest trace of masculinity is often riduculed, despite her stunning looks---the larger our group the better with more chance of acceptance.

[Maggie Kay]

I have questioned whether T should be in the LBGT umbrella too. As my TG issues emerged, I got a lot more sympathetic to the gay lifestyle. Previously, I was sadly to say, bigoted. It was because I was molested by a gay man when I was in my teens. I was afraid of gays most of my life. When I was forced to confront the issue due to my need to express my femininity, I changed my opinions and now fully support the gay lifestyle. While I am not gay, I can relate to the their issues as they are somewhat parallel. I still have a question as to whether the two groups have enough in common to work together. One thing is for sure, the gay people's sexual preference defines them but TG people's desired gender defines them. Sexual preference is not an overlap in the LBG and T communities. This confuses me as to what we really have in common. When we are associated with the gay rights movement don't we perpetuate the notion that we are all gay?

[Kimberley]

This whole sexuality myth needs to be broken because it is only a perspective. Is a pre-op T-girl gay if she has a relationship with a male? I, like most here dont think so, but when viewed from the sidelines it is of course a gay relationship. The same holds true for a transman. Still even within our own community we have this opinion perpetuated.

I think that this confusion over gender and sexuality confuses everyone including the gay community. However many in the gay community do "get it" and so they see a relationship with us as being hetero; not gay. This is confirmed when post op our relationships are frequently hetero.

This only confuses the onlooker to our whole culture even more. This whole concept of sexuality being tied to gender is probably the largest barrier we face and the one that most needs to be addressed.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Stephenie S]

I don't think there has been any time in the past when we were more accepted than we are now. Just look at the many, many, article in the press. Newsweek ran a really good article recently, and there have been many TV shows from Oprah to Keith Abrow and 20/20 or 60 minutes. The Discovery Channel has been running very informative programs recently. Susan Stanton received national support. TG is out there and beginning to be noticed by the mainstream. We are a LONG way from acceptance, of course, but people are looking. I find tremendous acceptance in my daily life. I do live in northern New England, though. There's lots of pretty liberal folk in these parts, but I should think that the SF Bay area would be even more accepting.

I, for one, do not mind being associated with my GLB brothers and sisters. Many of them are more than accepting, they are genuinely supportive. The local GLBT center has many programs just for us.

There is a lot of homophobia in the CD community. Let's try to be as accepting as we can here in the TG community. We want it from others, let's do all we can to live it ourselves.

Lovies,
Steph

[CaptLex]

Many transgendered people start in the gay or lesbian communities before realizing fully who they are.
And others become part of these same gay and lesbian communities after realizing we're trans, so either way homophobia in the trans community makes absolutely no sense to me. Well, prejudice of any kind makes no sense to me, but that one really taxes my brain. I just don't get the "us or them" mentality. What about those of us that identify as both gay and trans? Do we have to pick a side?

[Lisa Golightly]

And others become part of these same gay and lesbian communities after realizing we're trans, so either way homophobia in the trans community makes absolutely no sense to me. Well, prejudice of any kind makes no sense to me, but that one really taxes my brain. I just don't get the "us or them" mentality. What about those of us that identify as both gay and trans? Do we have to pick a side?

Quite right Captain... It is utter rubbish to believe that division will lead to any form of acceptance.

[janedoe311]

I still have a question as to whether the two groups have enough in common to work together. One thing is for sure, the gay people's sexual preference defines them but TG people's desired gender defines them. Sexual preference is not an overlap in the LBG and T communities. This confuses me as to what we really have in common. When we are associated with the gay rights movement don't we perpetuate the notion that we are all gay?

One of my points. Gay’s are "labeled by their "life style" and sex preference. TG/TS are by their gender ID.

Gay’s are seen as promiscuous by most people, resulting in the spread of AIDS. Not the case of TG/TS.

I live in San Francisco Bay Area. Even when the risk of donating blood was public too many gay men still did it without testing, spreading AIDS to the general public and even children. AIDS in the gay community and blood, was all that was mentioned in the news especially when blood tests because available. So I am very upset at gay men for this, they killed lots of people via AIDS. Personally I feel that TS/TG associating with gay men is a mistake. So I am prejudiced.

Gay men have the male sex drive and typical male “lack of consequences of their actions”, unprotected sex, sex when they knew they had AIDS or were at risk. I do not feel that the TS/TG community is doing themselves a favor by putting themselves in the same group as gay men.

I do not see too much in common.

Yes some post-op MTF TG are gay. But that is another thread!

This question was not just to find out what people here think but to brain storm.

So far I like the thought that has been put in this thread!

[Cai]

Just because some gay men were promiscuous and incautious doesn't mean the group as a whole is bad. There are always people in every group who are not a good representation of that group.

[Maggie Kay]

It could be a cart and horse thing. If TG'ers are perceived by society as just being another type of gay expression, then it seems natural that T is included in the LBGT umbrella. Yes, there is a distinction between identified by sexual preference vs gender but so far that message hasn't been accepted by the public. Also, it seems that TG'ers are much more closeted because of a higher level of discomfort that the issue causes in the general public. I mean, really, it could happen to anyone! IT can develop late in life! I remember a time when having Cancer or TB was shameful. Society has taken the tack to not give TG issues a chance, preferring to sweep it (and us) under the carpet. Someday, perhaps this condition will be allowed to be viewed in clinical terms but until the Religious Right has lost it's grip we have a ways to go. SO until then, it is probably better to be allied with the LBG folks. It seems to be working and it does give a platform to get the message out.

[CaptLex]

Gay men have the male sex drive and typical male “lack of consequences of their actions”, unprotected sex,
Yeah right . . . gay men are the only men that behave this way . . . :rolleyes:

[joanlynn28]

Hey eventhough we transexuals have much to share with our gay and lesbian allies, when it comes to the sexuality aspect we are the polar opposite. The best analogy I could think of would be that of comparing the United States and England, two countries seperated by a common langauge. And being shunned by so-called normal society we need to stick together in our struggle to be able to live as ourselves.

[kerrianna]

I see it in real simple terms (being a simpleton about some stuff :heehee:).

Gay people live outside the societal 'norms'.
TG/TS people live outside the societal 'norms'.
Both groups are misunderstood and treated poorly.
Thus we have a common bond - to gain trust and understanding and acceptance to be free to be who we are.

Why wouldn't we stick together for a unified voice?

It's no accident that the first person outside of here (besides Carol) that I chose to come out to was a lesbian. I knew she would understand what it's like to have to feel guarded about who she truly is.

The pride movement has come a long way and fought some very difficult battles for acceptance, not just of a sexual preference, but of being free to lead a lifestyle that isn't mainstream. I can't see how being embraced under their umbrella can hurt us. There will always, in any movement, be some people that don't agree with each other, but like I said, we do have a lot in common. :hugs:

[Kimberley]

I believe we can learn a great deal from the history of the LGB movement but our situations are very different. Still a lot of what is happening towards tolerance of us is not so much associated with the LGB movement as it is with our own exposure.

The media is picking up on us and a few are actually trying to understand. When they do get it, we see favourable reporting such as what 20/20 did a couple of weeks ago. Films such as Transamerica are becoming mainstream and debunking some of the myths. None of this is tied to the LGB movement but the exposure parallels the path of their journey. So, yes, we can and should be a part of this in that we can learn from their experiences and in doing so, look forward on our own journey.

Bottom line is that we have to do it for ourselves not expect others to take us by the hand and lead us. History is a great teacher.

Unfortunately, the exposure that is doing the most good is based in tragic circumstance. This is what is making people think; not militancy. Stories like Gwen Araujo and Susan Stanton are what are raising awareness. Let's face it even Transamerica was a tragic film.

Our problem is largely a lack of organization which the LGB movement did create for itself. We have little pockets here and there but no REAL singular voice or representation that can press the law to put Bubba and his boys into line. Little strides are being made but it will require to make some big leaps for us to go forward in any universally major direction.

This is not just an American problem but one that exists globally, so it requires much more than just a "local" voice and effort. The real irony is that right here, right now we have this massive global network and what do we do with it; virtual cafes, discuss the denier of panty hose, make dumb assed revelations. There is nothing wrong with this but there has to be more and we are just twisting in the wind.

This thread has more relevance than any I have seen in a long time.

Just more musings

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Cai]

The problem with using this site as a soapbox is that the people who see it don't need to be preached to.
Additionally, the best way to be accepted as human beings, not monsters, is to behave like human beings. Be normal. Which is exactly what we do here. We discuss everything under the sun, we have concerns, we have joys, so anyone that does happen to stumble through here might see that we're just people like them.

In connection with the need for a spokesperson/group - I think you're right. Transgendered people need a single name that stands up for them and fights for them. If there was a group with a bit of clout behind it, maybe TS/TG people wouldn't settle for being discriminated against.

[Kimberley]

Hi Cai,
I am not suggesting this site as a soapbox. It would never work unless the mainstream were to visit regularly and yes it is a great social platform. What we dont have are those people who are the leaders or possible leaders in our midst. We have the ability to organize and go forward for ourselves but we arent doing that. I think that is the point I am trying to make.

We have some strong voices here but no one stepping up. The costs are too high. We have people from around the globe who can unite us but dont. Again the costs are too high. When I speak of costs I am talking about social, financial and personal costs of stepping out front. So we are letting the media do it for us in baby steps and that is great until they latch on to a new "flavour of the week." Then we are left again.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Maggie Kay]

This thread has made me re-think my views on the subject of homosexuality. I said I am not gay, meaning to me that I was born male and do not desire males in bed. However, I identify as female and desire a female in bed. That by many definitions, makes me a lesbian. This also means, that my partner, a GG, would have to be at least bisexual or lesbian to enjoy sex with me. On a totally different level, my life partner and I are women. Looking at us, people assume that we are a lesbian couple. Obviously, this means that LBG is a major factor in my life. Extending this to other TG folks, I would have to say that TG people like me DO belong in the LBGT spectrum.

On the other negative comments on gay men etc. That is a totally different topic. I can understand the hurt expressed here. Bad people are bad regardless of their sexual preference. Yes, I was hurt by a gay man and it is still difficult to deal with it. However, my mother harmed me far more ( not sexually) and she was hetero. I can no longer say that gays are stereotypically evil and expect to be a peace with myself. This is one of the lessons I have had to learn as I accepted that I am transgendered.

[janedoe311]

Yeah right . . . gay men are the only men that behave this way . . . :rolleyes:



First of all I did not say only Gay men and I did not say all Gay men. Males are males. It is the male hormones that drive them. Take a biology course you will see why. Without the male hormones (sexually aggressive side effects) few species would reproduce or survive, especially in bad times. The most successful species that have come back from near extinction are those that have a dominant male and a harem. You cannot be a wimp (with low male hormones) to keep a dozen female and all the males away!

Secondly as I said I live near San Francisco. Gay men were the ones hit the hardest and “first” at least from the Medias point of view. And they kept having unprotected sex and donating blood!

According to what I have read, HIV is killed or nearly in the acid environment of the vagina. In the rectum HIV is absorbed very readily. Not that vaginal sex cannot spread HIV but it takes a very infected male, many times and a women with a less acidly chemistry or the right time of the month and a low immune system or anal sex.

Some information about AIDS that I read over 10 years ago, before the internet.

A hospital did surveys on their AIDS patients, I think it was in SF. Over 80% that had AIDS at one time had one of the many STD and many STD were never treated. They felt the STD’s weakened their immune systems and or possibly made it easier for the HIV to infect the glands and body chemistry that is essential to the immune system. It is “politically correctness” that keeps this information from the main stream media. You can not blame a “life style” for deaths. Especially since they vote!

Also people have showed positive for HIV and latter did not. People have had HIV for 10+ years with no signs of AIDS. And this is not just people that are on the expensive drugs many use natural ways to strengthen their immunes system or nothing. One man was getting an intravenous Vitamin C solution every week and he said it helped a lot but could not afford it much longer. He was not going the drug way because he could not afford that and had problems with the drugs side effects.

Very little is known about HIV to AIDS. They do not know how many people were exposed to HIV and their body killed it. Not everyone in the world is being tested for HIV every year, if they did they would find some big surprises. I suspect that HIV is more common then thought but never takes hold in most people. You have a strong immune system and it is not likely it will take hold! (I have not had a cold or flu in 30 years. I have been exposed to many virus from my wife (she teaches 2 to 3 years olds) and kids and do not get them!) But the medical and pharmaceutical industries make trillions treating AIDS and do not want people to know this.

Keep an open mind and read between the lines. I do not feel that I should have to “Draw Pictures” in all my threads.

CaptLex you seem to be very defensive, chill out a bit you will not make it to my age if you do not.

I am 56 and have done flip flops on things as I learned more and became more opened minded, you will too with time.

I work in a college and I used to tutor. I have to be open minded to all people from all countries. One of the things that keeps me in this crazy place, working for the state of California.

[CaptLex]

Keep an open mind and read between the lines. I do not feel that I should have to “Draw Pictures” in all my threads.

CaptLex you seem to be very defensive, chill out a bit you will not make it to my age if you do not.

I am 56 and have done flip flops on things as I learned more and became more opened minded, you will too with time.

I work in a college and I used to tutor. I have to be open minded to all people from all countries. One of the things that keeps me in this crazy place, working for the state of California.
Actually, I'm one of the most open-minded, chilled-out and non-judgmental people you will ever meet. Like you, it probably comes from growing up and living in a diverse environment. But I don't like generalizations and do become very defensive whenever I encounter them - whether they relate to me or not. You don't have to draw pictures for me, but you should be clearer when making blanket statements about any group.

BTW, makes no difference to me whether I live to your age or not, just as long as I can live those last ten years as a boy.

[kerrianna]

So I am very upset at gay men for this, they killed lots of people via AIDS. Personally I feel that TS/TG associating with gay men is a mistake. So I am prejudiced.



Jane, I tried ignoring this the first time, but since you're bringing it up again I have to say I find your comments to be homophobic. I don't think it takes any reading between the lines when you admit yourself that you are prejudiced.

[AmberTG]

OK, I gotta jump in here. Here's the quote.
"Gay men have the male sex drive and typical male “lack of consequences of their actions”, unprotected sex, sex when they knew they had AIDS or were at risk. "
First, "the male sex drive" is pretty much a given with males, it's a side effect of testosterone, so it is a generalization that holds true for most males, if they have a normal amount of testosterone in their body.
second, "typical male "lack of concequences of their actions" used to be pretty typical of most men, especially younger men. They just want to get laid, it's that damn testosterone drive again. I think many men are now using some form of protection now, most of the unattached men that I know now carry condoms, but the urge is still there, they still want to get laid any chance they can get.
Both of these generalitys hold true for the general population, it's simple biology.
All the gay people I knew in the 1970s were into the multi-partner lifestyle, none of the ones that I personally knew were in a committed relationship with only one other person. I can't make a generalization based on that, but it was pretty common then. One of my best friends in high school moved to California in 1981 and died of AIDs in 1985. He was in the closet until after high school and then came out. He lived here for 8 years as a gay person and then moved to CA to be in a more accepting environment. However, he didn't give up his multi-partner ways and paid the ultimate price for it. I still think about him from time to time.
Anyway, I think that argueing over certain generalitys in this thread is distracting from the subject here, whether the generalitys are accurate or not. We can agree to disagree on those things and still have this discussion about representation.
I think that gender activism is a lot more widespread than most people realise, it just doesn't make the news, and because of that, doesn't get into the mainstream. The people who have been in the news lately have done a lot to help the gender cause, but I'd bet they'd rather just go on with their lives than become a spokesperson for the movement. That's only a natural reaction, that's why so many post-ops just dissappear into society, I can't blame them, it's hard to live a normal life in the spotlight.
Until high-profile TG/TS people decide to give up their "normal" life for the cause, we won't have a spokesperson to head the movement toward tolorance for us. I don't know that I would be willing to take on that challenge, so I wouldn't expect someone like Susan Stanton to want to do it either. It's a tough decision.

[kerrianna]

A couple of things Amber.

First I'm glad Jane has declared her prejudice because if we're going to have this discussion it's useful to know where people are coming from. I don't share Jane's, or it seems your, views on the culpability of gay men, so as far as I'm concerned it's not a valid reason to not be aligned with the pride movement. But I can see how it might be for some people.

I agree that TG/TS people need their own voice, and I think we are gaining it, but in the meantime we can help ourselves up by learning from others. I don't think a movement needs a single or a few spokespersons - just the opposite in fact. The more the merrier. :happy:

Right now Susan Stanton is a fine courageous spokesperson in that she has resolved to use her moment in the limelight to educate people. She has tons of support I'm sure. I hope she does have active support from the LGBT community. But a movement is more effective if it is seen as involving lots of people from all walks of life. Every little bit each one of us does helps. Everytime any one of us talks with our friends, family, employers, etc...helps educate the 'general public'. Lasting change builds up this way, slowly and surely.

One of the reasons environmental issues became an accepted daily discourse (at least in my country) is because environmentalists aligned and partnered with organized labour, social educators, and like-minded people. They didn't and don't agree on all issues but together they were able to present issues and causes into mainstream society that carried weight, and are now accepted as a part of mainstream culture. That is what we need to do. It takes time, it takes courage, and it takes friends and allies. :hugs:

[Sharon]

I was hoping when this thread first appeared that it was written from an innocent perspective -- an honest question about transgenders asserting themselves individually and not as a part of a larger all-encompassing LGBT group of organizations, and that is the way I chose to view the question when I first responded. Shame on me.:sad:

First of all, I take great offense at some of the bigoted generalizations being stated here by a couple members. How the hell do you ever expect to get any sort of acceptance from others in society when you have such outrageous and ridiculous prejudices yourselves? Personally, I wouldn't want you to speak out for me and those like me on any issue at this point.:Angry3:

And for what it is worth, the majority of gay people I know, both male and female, are in committed relationships. Those who aren't, wish they were.

If you want to be bigoted against me and some of my friends, then that's fine, I don't have a shred of hope of you ever changing your tiny minds, but don't expect me to lose my bigotry against idiots.:(

[Lisa Golightly]

If you want to be bigoted against me and some of my friends, then that's fine, I don't have a shred of hope of you ever changing your tiny minds, but don't expect me to lose my bigotry against idiots.:(

I've been around this scene too many years babe... It's all Orwellian Doublespeak to me... I'm just me and society is a bag of cement like shite :)

[Lisa Golightly]

Males are males.


Is that a fact?

[janedoe311]

I am ADD, taking adderall, two asthma drugs. I am tired and burned out have had severe depression no self asthma of hop for the last 8 months.

Was my statements about Gay male and AIDS incorrect?

My Bigotry is based solely on what I observe. Most male Gays might be ok but that is not what I have and any experience with. And yes I have worked in SF and with gay men.

AIDS took off in the Gay male population is that what you are hiding, by this distraction and name calling

[Lisa Golightly]

I am ADD, taking adderall, two asthma drugs. I am tired and burned out have had severe depression no self asthma of hop for the last 8 months.

Was my statements about Gay male and AIDS incorrect?

My Bigotry is based solely on what I observe. Most male Gays might be ok but that is not what I have and any experience with. And yes I have worked in SF and with gay men.

AIDS took off in the Gay male population is that what you are hiding, by this distraction and name calling


I'm overworked... concerned about debt and bitching my bank about charges... Am I male, female, bi, hetro, homo or just f'ing human like the rest of the sad *******s?

[AmberTG]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my comments about gays and males, both are based on personal observation.
As to gay people, I know things are quite different now, the gay people that I know now are all in committed relationships. I was talking about the "anything goes" 1970s when the AIDs epidemic started. Actually, the young hertos that I know tend to have more sex partners then any of the gay people I know.
As a point of fact, I am bisexual, I had an affair with another man when I was young that lasted about a year, so don't think that I'm bigoted against gays, I am not. I still find certain men attractive and might be open to a relationship in the future, now that I'm no longer married.
As for having more spokespeople for TG/TS people, I can only hope more people are willing to throw themselves at the mercy of the spotlight of the press. We need all the exposure we can get. I don't have a problem with being aligned with the LGBT community, but we do need our own voice and spokespeople within that community to represent our part of it. We can't expect someone else to do it for us.

Edit- I do know one young gay man who still meets men on the internet and has sex with multiple partners, so that is not entirely a thing of the past.

[Dasein9]

Jane Doe: Males are males.
Lisa Golightly: Is that a fact?

Das: No.

[Dasein9]

Okay, lots of stuff here.

First, yes a lot of gay men kept having sex and giving blood when AIDS first exploded. I remember those years too. I also remember that we didn't know what was causing AIDS at the time. There was a whole lot of speculation and misinformation. So, yes, this happened. But the spread wasn't malicious or even careless. It happened because of ignorance.

Now, about the original thread question:
TS/TG/TV's were part of the Gay Rights movement from the beginning. Stonewall was the uprising of the gender divergent. It's only lately, as the gay community has been gaining ground that it's also become assimilationist with the heterosexual community and shuns its TS/TG/TV members as being "too weird" or giving them a "bad name."

This phenomenon is a lot like the feminist movement's dismissal of lesbians, when lesbians represented a great deal of the driving force behind the early feminist movement.

So, yes. I believe that TS/TG/TG persons do have a lot to gain from and a lot to offer toward alliance with the LGB community, as well as with the leather community, the S&M community, and any other community that challenges society's norms regarding gender and sexuality.

We're not the same, but we have a lot in common. And we have a louder voice when we speak together.

[MistressWickedness]

I think we should be with them even though ive experienced negativity from the lesbian community, like being told i could not participate in a native american 2 spirit organization, which my being hermaphrodite im what the indian creation stories refer to on 2 spirits but since i was pre-op n the head of the local lesbian community center, where it was held, said i was not allowed. or the lesbian who outted me when i went to give plasma, btw im lesbian and never been with a guy, anyway id given plasma at this place for 3 years before i transitioned and no one recognized me but she outted me and said i couldnt give plasma because i was ts, which i told her i was hermaphrodite, and her and the nurse both said they didnt believe we exsisted, anyway they through a fit when the home office told them they had to take my plasma. n i told her one day her being butch, n her attitude i could flip it n say that in the same way she assumes i wanted to be female so i could get with guys i could say she is butch cuz she wanted to be a guy, and she blew a fuse on that one. but on the other hand in oklahoma courts i retained custody of my son when my ex tried to take him away from me after i started the change, and me n my lawyer used several cases of lesbians who were given custody of their kids so i think we do benifit from fighting with them ,,, but i also say that the community itself needs to be educated, and learn to practice acceptance of others especially since we want acceptance for ourselves.

[Marcie Sexton]

By choice or birth I have no problem with ones life path...As I have grown old I have learned to appreciate everone and everything about me...

Life is simply to short to not do so...Love life to its fullest and enjoy what is about you...

"Live as long as you can and die when you can't help it"

[Dasein9]

I think we should be with them even though ive experienced negativity from the lesbian community,

I'm sorry you had to go through that, MistressWickedness.

The gay community doesn't always get us, and does need to be educated. I've met with hositility in gay bars before, myself.

Many in the lesbian community seem to be particularly resentful of FTM's, saying that we're betraying feminism or defecting. I find this particularly odd since I've never been part of the lesbian community. I like guys.

But then there are the wonderful ones too. The ones who, even if they don't "get it," still accept us and support us. These are the ones I try to focus on.

[AmberTG]

like being told i could not participate in a native american 2 spirit organization, which my being hermaphrodite im what the indian creation stories refer to on 2 spirits but since i was pre-op"

Now this doesn't make any sense to me! This is what "two spirited" people are!
There sure wasn't anything like a sex change operation available before about 50 years ago and Native American culture has a long history of "two spirited" people. What has done the most damage to this concept is the intrusion of modern society on Native American culture, it's really too bad that the invaders have managed to destroy the existing culture where ever they went.

[Stephenie S]

Yes, Jane.

In regards to your knowledge of AIDS and HIV, you have displayed really gross ignorance and fanatical prejudice. It does not become you, dear.

And in regards to your knowledge of homosexuality, you have fared no better. And that doesn't become you either.

I suspect your heart is in the right place, hon, but you are not showing it here.

Steph