Second look, at gg's almost always in pants.

[Alice Torn]

I, like so many others, have lamented the death of the skirt, and dresses, on gg's. I love the way a skirt or dress, enhance a woman's beauty. Today, I noticed three gg's, including a white-haired older one, in skirts, and dresses. One gg, pumping gas, caught my eye, as she was in a short dress, and heels, and seemed to be really enjoying all the attention, including mine. But, I have been thinking about, all the attention gg's get, when wearing dresses, or skirts. A lot of it, is UNWANTED. My housemae, will not wear a dress, or skirt, since she was in grade school! I sense abuse, and rape, while she was wearing a dress, or skirt. She is not dealing with her issues, takes half a dozen meds, so she does not feel the hurt. I suspect, that many gg's were violated, in younger years, while in dresses, skirts, bathing suits, etc. I must say, that most guys are far more sexually excited, by a gg, in a dress, or skirt, showing legs, and in heels, than, in jeans, which are the unofficial uniform, for gg's these days. The miniskirt years, caused a women's backlash!! Don't show any leg, now. Wear pants most, if not all the time! Let's not let those males see ANY LEG, NOW! With society, becoming more and more violent, if I were a gg, I may well be very cautious, about showing any leg, and heels, too!! It is dangerous for men, let alone gg's!! Part of me, can understand, why so many are on guard, and leary of men. I , myself, am very cautious, especially, at six foot ten, in heels, of going out there, showing a lot of legs, and heels. With fun attention, comes unwanted attention. I stille would like to see more gg's in dresses, and skirts, but, I think I understand, why so many are wearing pants, to blend in, and be less sexually provacative. I find it harder to be sexually attracted more, when a gg, is in pants, than when in dress, or skirt. In a dangerous world, I can see why so many choose, to be less provacative, wearing the pants. It makes for less beautiful scenery, though!

[Jodi]

Lucille, I think you are reading way too much into it. Pants and jeans are very much in style today, and they are practical. Women want to be in style and many are just practical.

Jodi

[Eva Diva]

If you go to a big city financial district at lunch time, you'll see many young women in dresses and skirts - they dress for their job. They will often be in running shoes :eek: but they are not in jeans. College girls will go to class in jeans, but if they go out clubbing, it will be in dresses and skirts. Women dress far more casually than they did 50 years ago, but many women - like real estate agents and legal secretaries still dress in a "formal" manner.

[GACountrygal]

But, I have been thinking about, all the attention gg's get, when wearing dresses, or skirts. A lot of it, is UNWANTED.

Thats one of the many reasons I dont wear skirts or dresses. But it may not apply to everyone.

[Stacy GG]

For me mostly its a matter of amount of time I have available, if I haven't had time to shave ( bc of full time school & work load) I don't wear skirts or shorts..eww hairy legs! :o no one wants to see that!!
I do admit when I was younger and thinner I was much prouder of my figure and wore short skirts alot. As I get older, have less time to excercise, work and go to school. I find showing off my legs is not so important as making sure the car runs and school tuition gets paid :) . I suppose when I'm done with school dressing well might become more important..but it might not, I plan to have kids by then..so once again I'll have no time for showing off. practicality will be the name of my game. :2c:

[Stephenie S]

Lucille, a lot of the attention women get no matter WHAT they are wearing is unwanted. Your stated desire to be sexually aroused by looking at GGs provocatively dressed should send up a red flag for you. Not very many people want to be an object of sexual attraction just to pump gas or go to the bank. Please keep it in your pants.

Most GGs, and many non-GGs, myself included, want to live their lives unencumbered by strange men's sexual desires. I wear jeans because I don't want to be noticed. I wear a skirt because I like the way it looks and feels, not to turn you on.

What turns you on is your business, but please do it in private with a consenting adult, not a person pumping her gas or going to the bank.

Respectfully,
Stephenie

[Stephenie S]

Lucille, upon re-reading your post, I see that perhaps you may understand my point already. If you do, please accept my apologies. When I am tired I sometimes get a little cranky.

Stephenie

[cocopuff's girl GG]

The many women in the big cities that was mentioned most likely are wearing that because of a dress code or perhaps jeans are not exceptable wear in that peticular business. Most women now that have to dress a certain way for work are wearing business suits matching slacks and a matching jacket of some sort. I bet most of those women though who wear a dress or skirt everyday to work can't wait to get home and get in jeans and a tennis shoe or as some other's say sneakers. LOL If you notice the shoes women wear are coming down in the heels in everyday wear. Why you ask??? They are more comfortable. Now I don't mean special occasions women aren't putting on the high heels. Dinner occastions and such but I'm talking every day wear. I wear capri's almost all summer long. I love wearing that or just shorts. I normally don't wear a dress or skirt unless it's a wedding , funeral or a real specail occasion. I hate having the thoughts of putting on hose. LOL I know, just the opposit of the CDer. I can't wait to get my bra off at the end of the day and just let everything loose. Most of the CDer's can't wait to get their bra's on and even some want to sleep in them. It's not that I don't want to be femine or that wearing pants makes me have thoughts of being a man it's just that it's easier to wear clothes that you are more comfortable in. I think most GG's would agree with me here. It's all about comfort and girdles and hose and bra's and corsets and heels that aren't comfortable are just not worth it to me to wear no more than when I have to. I've never worn a corset so I really don't know what that feels like but it doesn't look all that comfortable to me. :love:

[GACountrygal]

The many women in the big cities that was mentioned most likely are wearing that because of a dress code or perhaps jeans are not exceptable wear in that peticular business. Most women now that have to dress a certain way for work are wearing business suits matching slacks and a matching jacket of some sort. I bet most of those women though who wear a dress or skirt everyday to work can't wait to get home and get in jeans and a tennis shoe or as some other's say sneakers. LOL If you notice the shoes women wear are coming down in the heels in everyday wear. Why you ask??? They are more comfortable. Now I don't mean special occasions women aren't putting on the high heels. Dinner occastions and such but I'm talking every day wear. I wear capri's almost all summer long. I love wearing that or just shorts. I normally don't wear a dress or skirt unless it's a wedding , funeral or a real specail occasion. I hate having the thoughts of putting on hose. LOL I know, just the opposit of the CDer. I can't wait to get my bra off at the end of the day and just let everything loose. Most of the CDer's can't wait to get their bra's on and even some want to sleep in them. It's not that I don't want to be femine or that wearing pants makes me have thoughts of being a man it's just that it's easier to wear clothes that you are more comfortable in. I think most GG's would agree with me here. It's all about comfort and girdles and hose and bra's and corsets and heels that aren't comfortable are just not worth it to me to wear no more than when I have to. I've never worn a corset so I really don't know what that feels like but it doesn't look all that comfortable to me. :love:

:iagree:

[Leah B]

I work near multiple college campuses and high schools. I see a lot of young women wearing skirts, and sometimes dresses.

[renee99]

Lucille, a lot of the attention women get no matter WHAT they are wearing is unwanted. Your stated desire to be sexually aroused by looking at GGs provocatively dressed should send up a red flag for you. Not very many people want to be an object of sexual attraction just to pump gas or go to the bank. Please keep it in your pants.

Most GGs, and many non-GGs, myself included, want to live their lives unencumbered by strange men's sexual desires. I wear jeans because I don't want to be noticed. I wear a skirt because I like the way it looks and feels, not to turn you on.

What turns you on is your business, but please do it in private with a consenting adult, not a person pumping her gas or going to the bank.

Respectfully,
Stephenie

I don't think that's quite fair. Am I supposed to turn tail and run when I feel a stirring down there? Should I apologize? Is it wrong if a man finds himself responding to big t*ts or curly hair? A turn-on is a turn-on, it's your own mind and body responding to your senses and shouldn't be shameful. I even think it is fine to compliment ladies on their presentation, and that it is beyond paranoid to think that it is out of place for a man to do that.

Shameful would be leering at that person just like staring at someone with a physical defect, or expressing your attraction to them when you don't even know who they are. These things are shameful because they make the other person feel cornered or annoyed. In other words, your being turned on doesn't even register on their radar unless you make an uninvited effort to somehow make it their business, which would again be considered shameful behavior.

Just goes to show how far the pendulum has swung in the other direction I guess. Almost to the level of thought-crime... leading to what we have today which is accusations of sexual harassment being wielded as a weapon rather than a defense in the workplace.

[Alice Torn]

I should have been clearer. Noticing lovely ladies, in dresses, and skirts, showing a little leg, is the normal male reaction. We are wired that way. It is what we do, with thoase thoughts, and turn ons, that makes the difference, between acknowledging seeing an attractive lady, even complimenting her, and lusting , wanting to have her. We all have to decide what we do with our desires, pulls, and thoughts. We all have them, including gg's.

[Stephenie S]

I don't think that's quite fair. Am I supposed to turn tail and run when I feel a stirring down there? Should I apologize? Is it wrong if a man finds himself responding to big t*ts or curly hair? A turn-on is a turn-on, it's your own mind and body responding to your senses and shouldn't be shameful. I even think it is fine to compliment ladies on their presentation, and that it is beyond paranoid to think that it is out of place for a man to do that.

Shameful would be leering at that person just like staring at someone with a physical defect, or expressing your attraction to them when you don't even know who they are. These things are shameful because they make the other person feel cornered or annoyed. In other words, your being turned on doesn't even register on their radar unless you make an uninvited effort to somehow make it their business, which would again be considered shameful behavior.

Just goes to show how far the pendulum has swung in the other direction I guess. Almost to the level of thought-crime... leading to what we have today which is accusations of sexual harassment being wielded as a weapon rather than a defense in the workplace.

I did apologise to Lucille.

What I am referring to, however, is the CONSTANT harrassment that ALL women experience on a daily basis. Men STARE at women. Men lear at women. Men make comments to women. Men follow women. Men whistle at women. Men pinch women. Men slap women's bottoms. Men put their arms around women uninvited. Men tell inapropriate jokes around and to women. Men slow down in cars and shout at women. Men proposition women. Men refuse to promote women who don't put out sexual favors in the workplace. Men EXPECT women to dress provocativly in order to please men's sexual fantasies. Men refer to women as inferior just because of their sex. Men think no means yes. Men . . . . . . . . . well, I could go on and on here. But mostly men consider this their birthright just because they are men.

And you want to excuse all this because of a stirring in your pants????

For goodness sake. Let women dress however they want. It's pretty egotistical to consider that women are here just for your own personal sexual pleasure. We get this lament on a regular basis here. "Why can't women wear dresses and skirts? Why can't women dress more provocativly? Why can't women dress sexier? Why can't we go back to the "Good old days" when women HAD to wear dresses? Doesn't a woman know how NICE she looks when she dresses up?" etc, etc!!

I overreacted to Lucille"s comment. But I feel that "out and about" IS an inapropriate place for a sexual turnon. Yes, when you find yourself sexually aroused by a stranger just living her life, pumping her gas, or going to the supermarket, I think you should re-examine your own feelings. Sexual arousal belongs in a private setting between CONSENTING ADULTS. It's not such a big step from public arousal to rape and pedophilia. "Oh, just look at how she was dressed, judge. She was asking for it". We have all heard that excuse, haven't we? And it's used, in some form or other, in every rape trial.

The fact is that many women are raped in small ways on a daily basis throughout their lives. And the fact is that many men consider this their birthright.

JMHO
Stephenie

[renee99]

And you want to excuse all this because of a stirring in your pants????
If you would actually read my post, I pointed to a clear divide between feelings and behavior.



For goodness sake. Let women dress however they want. It's pretty egotistical to consider that women are here just for your own personal sexual pleasure.

I don't know where you would think I reduce women to that just because I am attracted to them. Would you consider a lesbian who is attracted to women the same kind of threat as myself? What about a dominant woman who asks men out because she is attracted to them?



We get this lament on a regular basis here. "Why can't women wear dresses and skirts? Why can't women dress more provocativly? Why can't women dress sexier? Why can't we go back to the "Good old days" when women HAD to wear dresses? Doesn't a woman know how NICE she looks when she dresses up?" etc, etc!!


I think there is room for everyone to express their preferences.



Yes, when you find yourself sexually aroused by a stranger just living her life, pumping her gas, or going to the supermarket, I think you should re-examine your own feelings.

Re-examined. My stance on the matter is "Firm".



Sexual arousal belongs in a private setting between CONSENTING ADULTS. It's not such a big step from public arousal to rape and pedophilia.


It's not such a big step from finding a woman attractive to raping them and somehow becoming attracted to little boys in the process? I think you have some things seriously confused, not the least of which is the difference between thought and behavior.



"Oh, just look at how she was dressed, judge. She was asking for it". We have all heard that excuse, haven't we? And it's used, in some form or other, in every rape trial.

Since when has blaming the victim EVER been considered a valid defence for a violent crime? Except when it comes to killing gay people or crossdressers at least.



The fact is that many women are raped in small ways on a daily basis throughout their lives. And the fact is that many men consider this their birthright.


I think you've been reading far too much feminist propaganda. If you want to talk in metaphors, then we could just as easily say that "the fact is that many men are castrated in small ways on a daily basis throughout their lives. And the fact is that many women consider this their birthright." It adds nothing to the discussion.

I wouldn't enjoy a man obviously leering at me any more than you do. But it doesn't ruin my day to think that my presence allowed someone to experience some pleasant thoughts and maybe a fantasy later. People being happy is what makes the world work. When people aren't allowed to enjoy their thoughts, they have to be sold replacements for their thoughts in the form of entertainment that may be more corrupt and grotesque than the thoughts would have been. I insist that we limit our criticisms to actual offenses that have been committed.

[Stephenie S]

If you would actually read my post, I pointed to a clear divide between feelings and behavior.



I don't know where you would think I reduce women to that just because I am attracted to them. Would you consider a lesbian who is attracted to women the same kind of threat as myself? What about a dominant woman who asks men out because she is attracted to them?



I think there is room for everyone to express their preferences.


Re-examined. My stance on the matter is "Firm".




It's not such a big step from finding a woman attractive to raping them and somehow becoming attracted to little boys in the process? I think you have some things seriously confused, not the least of which is the difference between thought and behavior.


Since when has blaming the victim EVER been considered a valid defence for a violent crime? Except when it comes to killing gay people or crossdressers at least.



I think you've been reading far too much feminist propaganda. If you want to talk in metaphors, then we could just as easily say that "the fact is that many men are castrated in small ways on a daily basis throughout their lives. And the fact is that many women consider this their birthright." It adds nothing to the discussion.

I wouldn't enjoy a man obviously leering at me any more than you do. But it doesn't ruin my day to think that my presence allowed someone to experience some pleasant thoughts and maybe a fantasy later. People being happy is what makes the world work. When people aren't allowed to enjoy their thoughts, they have to be sold replacements for their thoughts in the form of entertainment that may be more corrupt and grotesque than the thoughts would have been. I insist that we limit our criticisms to actual offenses that have been committed.

Sorry, didn't mean you to take this personally. That's why I didn't address it to anyone in particular.

"Pleasant thoughts and maybe a fantasy later", is a fairly inocuous response and it doesn't ruin my day at all. But I really don't think that's what was being alluded to at all. Women are second class citizens in the majority of the world's societies, ours included. Just witness the overwhelming majority of members here who state unequivocally that, although they want to be women for a short period of time, probably for some only long enough to masterbate to climax, they would NEVER consider switching genders. That's because men have it pretty darn good.

However, that is NOT what I was talking about. I could repeat my paragraph about how women are treated on a daily basis again, but you could just reread it. It's true, every single statement and more. Many, many men (present company excepted, of course) consider this "normal" male behavior. It may very well be "normal" male behavior, but that does not excuse it.

While I apologize for making you think this was an attack on your behavior, I stand by my thoughts. It's true that at one time I did read a lot of feminist propaganda, it's a subject I studied years ago, and I consider myself a feminist today. But my present beliefs are based not on feminist "propaganda", but years and years of intelligent observation, and years and years of living with and listening to women. Dispite the views of many men, most women do NOT want to be considered, or treated as, sex objects.

Respectfully,
Stephenie

[renee99]

Women are second class citizens in the majority of the world's societies

True enough.


Just witness the overwhelming majority of members here who state unequivocally that, although they want to be women for a short period of time, probably for some only long enough to masterbate to climax, they would NEVER consider switching genders. That's because men have it pretty darn good.

Or maybe it's because they're not really women?

Maybe it's because taking their current happiness, adding whatever happiness might be gained by becoming a woman, but subtracting their wife, family, kids, job, about a year's salary, and the mental equivalent of a prostate examination whenever anyone discovers their past, somehow doesn't add up to equal or greater happiness than what they currently have?

No, it's because they want to exploit women, this time by leaving them out of the loop -- when before, they were being exploited by what you judged to be excessive desire.

May I ask, when AREN'T women being exploited, in your opinion?

Is a man being exploited when a woman is attracted to him for his power and wealth?


It may very well be "normal" male behavior, but that does not excuse it.
For every woman that doesn't excuse it, there's one that rolls her eyes at the other and basks in it. And the one that didn't excuse it will eventually find the perfect gentleman, who would have bored the other to tears. Yin and yang and all that. I don't see anything "wrong" with one or the other as long as they voluntarily choose their roles.



While I apologize for making you think this was an attack on your behavior,


I have only admitted feelings, not behavior. If you need a data point on my behavior, my gf had to ask me out, and had to make the first move as well. The fact that I would never act on a sexual feeling towards someone else doesn't lead me to deny that I have them, or wish that I did not have them.


but years and years of intelligent observation, and years and years of living with and listening to women. Dispite the views of many men, most women do NOT want to be considered, or treated as, sex objects.


If you were interviewing fellow feminists, I detect sample bias. Anyway, it doesn't matter. What they think, or what they say they think, doesn't matter. What matters is how they behave and what they communicate through that behavior. The same goes for men. We would agree that a man who is acting lecherous towards a stranger deserves a slap. What does a woman who is cupping her breasts and tossing her hair while talking to a stranger deserve? This is the double standard.

[stacie]

Has Don King productions taken charge of this post.
Most women do wear pants most of the time, But when it warms up, Skirts become more popular to wear. In the mid of winter pants are warmer to wear outside. Then again most crossdressers never go outside of their homes, Dressed as a female.

[Tina Dixon]

Yes this seems to be true women do where pants more but I was in northern Michigan this week end and I must say I have not seen as many women in skirts and dresses over the weekend as I have in a long time and I was very surprised and it was nice to see just a observation I noticed.

[Stephenie S]

True enough.

Or maybe it's because they're not really women?

"Maybe it's because taking their current happiness, adding whatever happiness might be gained by becoming a woman, but subtracting their wife, family, kids, job, about a year's salary, and the mental equivalent of a prostate examination whenever anyone discovers their past, somehow doesn't add up to equal or greater happiness than what they currently have?

No, it's because they want to exploit women, this time by leaving them out of the loop -- when before, they were being exploited by what you judged to be excessive desire."

I don't understand your point. Mine was that men have it pretty good in our society. I find it hard to argue otherwise.

"May I ask, when AREN'T women being exploited, in your opinion?"

When they are treated as equal members of society.

"Is a man being exploited when a woman is attracted to him for his power and wealth?"

Yes.

"For every woman that doesn't excuse it, there's one that rolls her eyes at the other and basks in it."

Not true. And many women "excuse" it. But not very many women "like" unwelcome sexual attention

"And the one that didn't excuse it will eventually find the perfect gentleman, who would have bored the other to tears."

Perhaps.

"Yin and yang and all that. I don't see anything "wrong" with one or the other as long as they voluntarily choose their roles."

The problem I am talking about is that few women voluntarily choose to be a sex object for strangers on the street.

"I have only admitted feelings, not behavior. If you need a data point on my behavior, my gf had to ask me out, and had to make the first move as well. The fact that I would never act on a sexual feeling towards someone else doesn't lead me to deny that I have them, or wish that I did not have them."

Good for you.

"If you were interviewing fellow feminists, I detect sample bias. Anyway, it doesn't matter. What they think, or what they say they think, doesn't matter."

This is typical of the thought process that I am talking about. To my mind, what women think, and what they say they think, DOES matter. I never interviewed feminists, I just lived with, worked with, and listened to women.

"What matters is how they behave and what they communicate through that behavior. The same goes for men. We would agree that a man who is acting lecherous towards a stranger deserves a slap."

Yes, we would agree to that. But not a slap, violence is rarely the proper response. The myth that women are somehow immune from the prohibition against phisical response to another human's improper behavior only perpetuates the thought process that I am arguing against.


"What does a woman who is cupping her breasts and tossing her hair while talking to a stranger deserve? This is the double standard."

She deserves the same disdainful rejection that a man who is grabbing his crotch and boasting about his yacht while talking to a stranger deserves.

Renee,

You still seem to be taking my previous posts personally. Relax, hon, I was not directing this at you.

Your interpretations of my statements change their meaning in several subtle ways. If you want to discuss something I said, please don't put words in my mouth. It's difficult for me to answer your objections to something I didn't say.

BTW, I don't know how to quote a previous post in different sections the way you (and many others) do. Could you please explain how to do that? It would help me answer specific sections of a post the way you did. The way I had to quote your post was clumsy and time consuming for me.

Anyway, I have enjoyed our discussion. It would be nice if others can take away some new ideas.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Tree GG]

I have only met one group of women where I felt a guy was endanger of rec'g unwanted physical contact - I only associated with that group once. Unfortunately, I've met way more than one group of men whose intentions were obvious.

There's nothing wrong with appreciating human beauty (male or female) - God (the universe) does great work. Expecting everyone to conform to what you think is attractive, however, is pretty narrow minded. Someone else may find the t-shirt, denim thing sexy. If you like skirts/dresses, fine...enjoy away. But please don't assume everyone else should equally enjoy.

Also, not all clothing is meant to be sexually attractive. There's more to life than sex and attracting the opposite sex. (Although that is a pleasant part). I find it interesting that TG or not, men seem to think that sexual attractiveness is way high in the priority list. Perhaps testosterone really does put the bulk of their brains in their pants (or panties). :D

[Stormgirl]

I have only met one group of women where I felt a guy was endanger of rec'g unwanted physical contact - I only associated with that group once. Unfortunately, I've met way more than one group of men whose intentions were obvious.

There's nothing wrong with appreciating human beauty (male or female) - God (the universe) does great work. Expecting everyone to conform to what you think is attractive, however, is pretty narrow minded. Someone else may find the t-shirt, denim thing sexy. If you like skirts/dresses, fine...enjoy away. But please don't assume everyone else should equally enjoy.

Also, not all clothing is meant to be sexually attractive. There's more to life than sex and attracting the opposite sex. (Although that is a pleasant part). I find it interesting that TG or not, men seem to think that sexual attractiveness is way high in the priority list. Perhaps testosterone really does put the bulk of their brains in their pants (or panties). :D

well said Ma'am :love:

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

Sorry but i dont actulay like skirts or dresses much :blushing: unless it was for a very very special occasion :happy: but , i dont think its really the clothing that oozzzes the appeal , if that person gives off an "aura" about themseleves , then wearing a black bin-liner lol can be equaly as sexy !! its the person in the clothes that makes the outfit what it is :D

[Tamara Croft]

I don't like skirts or dresses, because they don't look good on me... a bin liner would fit better ;) I prefer trousers, not jeans... jeans imho are tacky :tongueout but then again, I see a lot of you wearing those ;) each to their own right?

[Dasein9]

LOL! I love it! Well, the humour of it, not what's being said here.

Essentially, as I read it, a bunch of people who are striving, to one degree or another, to be more like women are telling the GG's on this thread what they do or should think and feel, whilst ignoring the things that they actually are saying.

Pretty much proves Stephenie's point, eh?

[Alice Torn]

I never heard of it. My point, was, that a lot more gg's are wearing pants, and jeans, instead of dresses, and skirts, to AVOID unwanted male attention. I was saying, that, taking a second look, at why so many more, are not wearing dresses, and skirts, and heels, of course, one reason, is comfort. The other reason, as, I have found, from some gg friends I have, is that they feel safer from unwanted male atention, and, that is another reason, they don't ever wear dresses, and skirts. I can understand their fears, as, I have found, from dressing up, in a dress several times, in public, DRESSES do bring far more male attention, much unwanted!

[Dasein9]

A bin-liner's a trash bag. Trash bin, liner thereof...

Maybe... just maybe... male attention isn't the issue at all. Maybe male attention plays a smaller role in women's clothing choices than men like to think.

[Tamara Croft]

http://cardboard-box.net/images/bin_bag.jpg

Bin liner....

[Sheila]

Perhaps the threads lamenting the lack of skirts & dresses shows concern that some m2f crossdressers have, that they may have to resort to wearing pants and shirts to bring out their femine side:D:tongueout ........... just a random thought not designed to inflame or upset anybody:hugs:

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

In the "PUNK ROCKER" days bin liners were all the rage !! :straightface:

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

Me in foresaid bin-liner :lol: sorry :blushing: 47652

[Brianna Lovely]

I should have been clearer. Noticing lovely ladies, in dresses, and skirts, showing a little leg, is the normal male reaction. We are wired that way. It is what we do, with thoase thoughts, and turn ons, that makes the difference, between acknowledging seeing an attractive lady, even complimenting her, and lusting , wanting to have her. We all have to decide what we do with our desires, pulls, and thoughts. We all have them, including gg's.

With all the effort, put in by woman, to be comfortable and practical. And a large portion of society, tripping over themselfs, to be politicaly correct.

It seems to me, that everyone has forgoten the most important thing.

Women are supposed to be attractive and men are supposed to be attracted to them! That's nature and that's the way it works, whether you agree with it or not.

So.............I'll just have to dress "pretty" and see if someone finds me attractive, giggle.

[Dasein9]

Women are supposed to be attractive and men are supposed to be attracted to them! That's nature and that's the way it works, whether you agree with it or not.

"Supposed to?" Whose rule?

[Brianna Lovely]

"Supposed to?" Whose rule?

Natural instict, survival of the species.

Added note: While I think many men behave in a crude manor, cat-calls, whistles etc.
I don;t think that telling a woman that you think she is attractive, is justification for screaming "rape".

[CaptLex]

Women are supposed to be attractive and men are supposed to be attracted to them!
Oh, damn . . . can't find that rule in my handbook, Brianna, what page is it on? :cheeky:

[Andrea Nicole]

When a GG is out hunting ... she is NOT wearing pants/slacks .... they know how to play the game much better then men ...

[Tree GG]

Women are supposed to be attractive and men are supposed to be attracted to them! That's nature and that's the way it works, whether you agree with it or not.




Natural instict, survival of the species.

No where, don't care what doctrine you believe, does it ever say though shalt be pretty. You quote "survival of the fittest" which is Darwinism which would support the heavier, larger women becoming more prevalent, not the cute little skinny, foo-foo women. And clothing and makeup are man made - nature had nothing to do with it.

Healthy and strong, yes, but the female of any species is rarely the colorful, showy one. The female is usually drab to blend in with their environment, or the huntress feeding the pack, etc and so on.

So go on, dress frilly and draw the attention of that predator. :D

[Dasein9]

Natural instict, survival of the species.

Oh, piffle. Women are supposed to do whatever they darned well please, within the bounds of ethics, legality, and reasonableness. Interpreting every action of women as being somehow motivated by men, whether it's attractiveness or fear, suggests a belief that women are less than fully human. It really isn't all about men.



Added note: While I think many men behave in a crude manor, cat-calls, whistles etc. I don;t think that telling a woman that you think she is attractive, is justification for screaming "rape".

No-one suggested anything of the sort.

[Dasein9]

When a GG is out hunting ... she is NOT wearing pants/slacks .... they know how to play the game much better then men ...


But a GG isn't always out hunting. Most of the time, she's just living her life.

[Brianna Lovely]

Oh, piffle. Women are supposed to do whatever they darned well please, within the bounds of ethics, legality, and reasonableness. Interpreting every action of women as being somehow motivated by men, whether it's attractiveness or fear, suggests a belief that women are less than fully human. It really isn't all about men.


Don't get your panties in a bunch!
This thread could get much too serious.

It's really all about people, and they're all different.

In a thread, some time ago, I mentioned that CDs dress, based on the male "perception" of how a woman "should" dress. Obviously, today, it's mostly wishful thinking.

Although I prefer a dress or skirt, I do hope that I don't live long enough, to see women and men being "equal". ALL WEARING IDENTICAL GRAY JUMP SUITS. Ewwww!

[Dasein9]

I don't wear panties.

And yes, people are all different. Which is why overgeneralisations, like "Women are supposed to look attractive." or "Women dress as they do because of men." or even "There is a single male perception of how a woman should dress." are harmful. Those stereotypes easily become presuppositions. And presuppositions limit everyone's scope of potentiality.

[Stephenie S]

Well, well. What a lot of response. What fun, huh? And I, for one, DO wish I live long enough to see women living as equal.

I still wish someone would explain to me how to quote sections of a post so I can address each section individually.

Stephenie

[Tamara Croft]

Well, well. What a lot of response. What fun, huh? And I, for one, DO wish I live long enough to see women living as equal.

I still wish someone would explain to me how to quote sections of a post so I can address each section individually.

StepheniePress the 'quote' button maybe ;)

[Dasein9]

In any case, modern society is fortunately moving past the point of viewing women primarily as a means to reproduction (although progress has been slow).

Yeh. I've always thought it was as silly to expect every woman to be a mother and wife as it would be to expect every man to be an accountant. Sheesh! Only one profession?

[cocopuff's girl GG]

How did we go from pants to rape??? You just never know where a post is gonna take you do you? My opinion is this thread got a little carried away. As I stated before it's just about comfort. G:gh:roup hug :hugs: Flowers :love:to all the pants wearers and to all the dress and skirt wearers you get flowers too. :love:

[renee99]

Well, well. What a lot of response. What fun, huh? And I, for one, DO wish I live long enough to see women living as equal.

I still wish someone would explain to me how to quote sections of a post so I can address each section individually.

Stephenie

You have to add in your own QUOTE and /QUOTE tags, takes a few seconds but that's all there is to it...

[renee99]

Natural instict, survival of the species.

Funny, that same argument was used to justify imprisoning homosexuals back in the day.

Seems to me the species is going to survive no matter what individuals choose to do. So we should do what makes us feel like whole people.

[Dasein9]

Flowers :love:to all the pants wearers and to all the dress and skirt wearers you get flowers too. :love:

:yt:

[Dasein9]

Funny, that same argument was used to justify imprisoning homosexuals back in the day.

Seems to me the species is going to survive no matter what individuals choose to do. So we should do what makes us feel like whole people.

Yeh. Not to mention, variety tends to do a great deal more to ensure the survival of the species than conformity.

[renee99]

No, it's because they want to exploit women, this time by leaving them out of the loop -- when before, they were being exploited by what you judged to be excessive desire."

I don't understand your point. Mine was that men have it pretty good in our society. I find it hard to argue otherwise.


Yes, men have it pretty good in our society, but this is NOT the only reason to remain in one's birth sex. Conversely male privilege hardly registers on the radar for FTM transpeople as a reason for their transition. That is my point. I found your insinuation infuriating, that male crossdressers have entirely selfish reasons for NOT transitioning. We're selfish if we do, selfish if we don't...



"May I ask, when AREN'T women being exploited, in your opinion?"

When they are treated as equal members of society.


Equal as in equal opportunity or as in equivalent? I believe there is a substantial confusion between the two in feminist thought. Equal opportunity is ethical. Equivalence of the genders would be suicidally boring even if it were true, which it is plainly not.



"Is a man being exploited when a woman is attracted to him for his power and wealth?"

Yes.

In what way? What harm has this woman done by being dazzled by this man's attributes?



"For every woman that doesn't excuse it, there's one that rolls her eyes at the other and basks in it."

Not true. And many women "excuse" it. But not very many women "like" unwelcome sexual attention


Whatever, I disagree based on personal experience. "Women" obviously tell each other different things than they tell even the most sensitive of guys. You are also using a deliberately ambiguous term "sexual attention" which could encompass anything from a secret crush to dry humping. My argument is strictly regarding why my THOUGHTS are somehow hurting women.



"Yin and yang and all that. I don't see anything "wrong" with one or the other as long as they voluntarily choose their roles."

The problem I am talking about is that few women voluntarily choose to be a sex object for strangers on the street.

How many men do you think "voluntarily" choose to THINK about women in a sexual manner? Shall I self-castrate to relieve you of the prospect that in my mind I might be undressing you? The voluntary roles I was referring to are in ACTION, not in THOUGHT. ACTION must be voluntary, consensual and appropriate. THOUGHT is irrelevant, because I refuse to be made to feel ashamed of my thoughts, and you have no idea what I'm thinking anyway, so why would it even matter?


This is typical of the thought process that I am talking about. To my mind, what women think, and what they say they think, DOES matter. I never interviewed feminists, I just lived with, worked with, and listened to women.
Then "women" need to stop telling men lies such as that having interest shown by a handsome man is an ego booster, or that they find that their role in relationships is to be pursued, and expect the man to lead and to make the first move. Because men take such bold-faced lies seriously, you know. Heck, it'd be a lot easier on guys if the women chased us instead. No chocolates, no flowers, no expensive gifts, and hopefully they'll fix my car and protect me from other aggressive women too. And they won't accuse me of "Raping" them with my thoughts either. Sounds like a deal to me... so what are you all waiting for? Unfortunately, every piece of advise I ever received from a GG involved being more active in pursuing relationships... so I'm not so sure this will work all that well.

Maybe we'll just all have to stand around and hope the other makes the first move, while at the same time criticizing them for making the first move.



"What matters is how they behave and what they communicate through that behavior. The same goes for men. We would agree that a man who is acting lecherous towards a stranger deserves a slap."

Yes, we would agree to that. But not a slap, violence is rarely the proper response.


Geezus.. a slap is a message, not violence. Compare it to whacking the dog with a newspaper.


The myth that women are somehow immune from the prohibition against phisical response to another human's improper behavior only perpetuates the thought process that I am arguing against.


I don't know of any sort of prohibition. Would you like to prohibit women wearing dresses whenever their only reason for wearing one is, as the OP stated, because they know men like to see them in dresses? After all, we wouldn't want any of our representatives to give those nasty men any ideas that women might want to be playful and the center of attention sometimes.



"What does a woman who is cupping her breasts and tossing her hair while talking to a stranger deserve? This is the double standard."

She deserves the same disdainful rejection that a man who is grabbing his crotch and boasting about his yacht while talking to a stranger deserves.

And yet... she gets grins from the boys. While the man gets strung up by his thumbs by the feminists. When are men going to band together and say "we're not gonna take it anymore" to females who make lewd advances towards them? I don't see too many men showing up to the "masculinism club" meetings...


Your interpretations of my statements change their meaning in several subtle ways. If you want to discuss something I said, please don't put words in my mouth. It's difficult for me to answer your objections to something I didn't say.

Actually, you are changing the subject in every response. My criticism, from my first post onward, is solely on the THOUGHT-crime (the mental "rape") that feminism would like to convict males of just for being male. But you are responding to my points as if I would like to excuse any sort of "sexual attention" by men.

At what point is it considered "rape"? If I:
- Notice a lovely outfit
- Notice the pretty face of the person wearing that lovely outfit
- Notice the body shape behind that lovely outfit
- Imagine the body without the outfit
- Imagine the body without the outfit, in my bed, inviting me
- Imagine the body without the outfit, underneath me
- Imagine myself in the outfit
- Imagine myself in the body wearing the outfit

Would it be a more heinous crime to imagine this person naked, or to ask for their phone number? One is an overtly sexual THOUGHT, the other is a non-sexual ACTION. Nobody else will ever know my THOUGHT, whereas the ACTION may well infuriate the woman.

Where is the line drawn?

That's all I'm trying to get at.

I understand your frustration at occasionally receiving unwanted attention, but to incriminate another person's entire thought process is going too far. It is their action that incriminates them, not their desires. :2c:

[Stephenie S]

Dear Renee,

I still don't know how to quote individual parts of a post and I am too tired of this to write it all out again.

I think that I am arguing just what you are trying to defend. That is that it is the THOUGHT that needs correction. We both agree completely that the ACTION is reprehensible. No one wants openly agressive sexual action in public. My point, and I think what bothers you, is that until we correct the thought, actions can easily follow. I am glad that you can envision elaborate sexual fantasies and still manage to avoid publicly acting them out. Many, many men cannot do this. My original post had a paragraph of ACTIONS to which many women are subject to as a matter of course in their daily lives. Daily humiliations and unwanted physical afronts which many, many men consider their RIGHT to inflict upon women soley because they are men and women are women. These actions are caused by THOUGHTS. Thoughts that tell men that it's all right to treat a entire sex as their playthings. I said that it's a short step from a sexual fantasy to rape. Perhaps you are civilized enough to avoid acting out your fantasy. Obviously you are, or you might be in jail. The car full of teenage boys that drives slowly down the street catcalling at the single woman walking home; the boss who expects his secretary to dress provacativly; and the rapist who slits the window screen and creeps into the bedroom all originate with a thought. And that thought is that men have power over women simply because they are men.

This post has wandered a bit. I am not sure you can understand my position. I think I understand yours and I think you are wrong, but we really may not gain anything by beating this subject any further into the ground. As I said before I have enjoyed our dialog. If anyone has learned anything it has perhaps been worthwhile.

Stephenie

[Alice Torn]

I am not putting down, the God made female population. Roy Masters is often accused of that, too. No, just, that male privilige, is not so common anymore. No one can accuse me of abusing, or rape, as I am abstinant, since birth!! It is not a sin, or wrong, to be tmpted, to do ANYTHING that is wrong, or sinful, bad, etc. It is what we do with the temptations, thoughts, lusts, etc. A bit of self-control, saying "no", to the thoughts. Fantasizing, is probably the most common sexual thing, anyone does. I agree, that men, and, for that matter gg's, need to watch out for their wrong thoughts, and desires, not decieve someone, or take advantage of them, and refrain from harmful actions. "God is no respecter of persons."

[Brianna Lovely]

Well, well. What a lot of response. What fun, huh? And I, for one, DO wish I live long enough to see women living as equal.

Stephenie

I didn't say living as equal. I did say everyone dressed in the same drab clothing.

[Stephenie S]

Well Brianna,

You won't catch me in any of that drab clothing.

Lovies

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

Well in caveman days it was a quick knock on ya head !! and dragged back to the ole cave !! :lol:

[stacie]

This post has been fun to read. My wife has only one skirt and maybe two dresses. There has been a lot of ladies wearing skirts on the warmer days this month were I live. So some do like to wear skirts at times... I do have to say, some of the members here need to leave the walls of their house and venture out and wear what you feel a lady should wear and see what happens.

[Dasein9]

Straw Man Argument: A logical fallacy in which someone ignores another person's actual position and sets up in its place a distorted, misrepresented, or exaggerated version and then argues against that.

And that's the argument Renee's setting up. No-one cried rape here. No-one equated male attention to rape.

What has been said is that a presupposition of entitlement to certain considerations of women, or even the presupposition of men's opinions always being central to a woman's decisions is harmful.

It's also arrogant, and in my experience, those men who are guilty of such arrogance don't have much of anything to be arrogant about.

[Dasein9]

I didn't say living as equal. I did say everyone dressed in the same drab clothing.

Again, straw man argument. No-one advocated any such thing.

I wonder, would it be okay with you if men and women all dressed in the same soft, colourful, lacy clothing?