Crossdressing is a transgender activity

[Michelia]

A thread started by someone I admire much on this site about another issue spurned me to start this one.

Yes, I know this has been discussed at nauseum before. But I find it hard to believe that any cders on this site would object/deny/ argue that they fall under the Transgender category in the gender spectrum.

Sure there are exceptions to the rule as in someone liking to use panties because they are more comfortable and it has no "feminine" connotations for them.

But is this denial based on the fact that someone would not want to challenge their male ego? Or not wanting to be associated with TS (or be in the same broad category as they are? Or is it more because they is not a true grasp of what the terminology all means? Yes, then there is the issue of resisiting "labeling". But gee, it seems there has to be a way of defining ourselves, no matter how broad the spectrum is. It is also important to find ways to stick together instead of differentiating more and more.

By all accounts and all definitions I have encountered, it is clear to me that crossdressing/transvestism belongs in the Transgender category.

All are invited to comment and/or "educate" me.

Michelia

[Kieron Andrew]

All are invited to comment and/or "educate" me.

no educating needed i totally agree with you

[Karren H]

I thought that de nile was a river in Egypt.... We are who we are no matter what the catagory..... I don't know what I am....... just extremely happy.....

Love Karren

[battybattybats]

Hmm... yes I think that many are still wrestling with a perceived stigma or just want to show that they are closer to one end or another of the spectrum, or that they are only a little away from 'normal'. It works on the other direction too, I've read remarks by TS's elsewhere that were disparaging of CD'ers for being in between.

I wonder though, where one must be on the scale to be no longer transgendered? Most of the women I know have some 'male' traits, same with the men being at least a little 'female'. I think that less than 1% of either gender that I've met could be considered 100% one or the other, depending on what traits you ascribe to what genders.

Could it be that we are all transgender? Every human being?

[Ellie C]

i expresss my fem side as i want to , im well happy with it , some may not be but its my life i live it :D xxxx

[ToyGirl]

There are some fundemental differences between cd's and ts , ive seen animosity from ts communitys towards cd/tv. I agree with what your saying though , but it'd be alot more interesting if I didn't. Guess i'll have to wait for someone to disagree with you.

[Teresa Amina]

The trouble some people have with identifying as Transgender is the never ending and rapid change of use for the word. On the Tyra Banks show there was an episode about Transexual dating, but apparently it's no longer PC to say anything but Transgender so that was the word used. No wonder some people get defensive since one often sees the word used as a catchall for everything from a simple fetish to Post-Op. Gets annoying!
I have no problem with the word, but then I'm very definitely Trans-Something :D

[Kate Simmons]

As Popeye always said: "I am what I am." Hopefully, that doesn't make me a bad person (even though I like skinny gals who look like "beanpoles":heehee:).;):battingeyelashes:

[cd_lisaplaything]

I hate Political Correctness. All these bloody labels and people getting offended by being referred to as what they are. Yeah, I'm in the closet with my crossdressing, and my bisexuality, but I kknow within myself who I truly am, regardless of who I present as to my family and friends. I'm sure there's a lot of us in similar situations. Sometimes I just wish that some folks would look up the dictionary definition of a word before being offended by it. I mean we are who we are, and on boards such as this at least, can freely and openly admit to that.

I can't for the life of me work out why some transgender folk get so uptight about the rest of us who choose to call ourselves crossdressers or transvestites or transexuals. I refer to myself as a crossdresser for a couple of simple reasons:
1. Being in the closet, all my stuff is stashed away and very rarely comes out these days coz I'm in a straight relationship
2. Even if I was single again, and dressing almost every night like I once did, I still have all my body hair and I'm of solid build so I don't LOOK feminine at all, regardless of how much effort I go to. [just a man in a frock!]
But to me, I dress because it makes me FEEL feminine, regardless of my outward appearance. When I'm dressed up [or down, hehe] I FEEL like a girl, deep within my soul. I'm me, whether I'm in work shorts & steel-capped boots, or a skirt & heels; who cares about labels?

[MJ]

i like to keep things simple *not because of my hair color* i was born a male i dress as female and to look Evan better i take hormones through my good doctor ... and there are many here who do not .. but we all do the same thing cross dress .. and i get to learn from everybody else .. and make new friends

[Jenny Beth]

To me there's no point trying to label myself one way or another, I'm happy with who I am and the way things are. The one thing I do know is that transitioning isn't for me. Oh sure the thought is nice but it would be financial suicide not to mention what it would cost in terms of family.

[O2B Barbara]

I have to wonder how many straight Genetic Males first started by wearing a Signifigant Other's panties. Then progressed to mild CD to all out Tg and then to TS?

Where are any of us on the Spectrum today and where will we be tomorrow?

Barbara

[MoonBaby GG]

I wonder though, where one must be on the scale to be no longer transgendered? Most of the women I know have some 'male' traits, same with the men being at least a little 'female'. I think that less than 1% of either gender that I've met could be considered 100% one or the other, depending on what traits you ascribe to what genders. Could it be that we are all transgender? Every human being?


I'm starting to think so...it's all a matter of degrees and what that person chooses and feels comfortable with expressing.

[Eva Diva]

A thread started by someone I admire much on this site about another issue spurned me to start this one.


I hope you weren't actually spurned. :D



Yes, I know this has been discussed at nauseum before.


Yep! :D



But I find it hard to believe that any cders on this site would object/deny/ argue that they fall under the Transgender category in the gender spectrum.

The reason that you started this thread is that youknow that some CDers on this site do. Let me rephrase that sentence for you.

I find it hard to believe that there is any legitimate justification for any CDers on this site to object/deny/ argue that they fall under the Transgender category in the gender spectrum


Now I can discuss your proposition. Trans, from Latin, means "on the opposite side". So, assuming there is a gender "spectrum", transgender means "of the opposite gender", or "being the opposite gender". If I say that you are on the opposite side of the river, I don't mean that you are in the middle of the river, on your way across. In current usage, a transgendered person is either a person who has undergone medical treatment and/or surgery to change the appearance of their body to the opposite of their anatomical gender, or a person who seeks to do the same and/or feels/identifies themselves as having the consciousness of gender identity of the opposite anatomical gender - that is, "woman trapped in a man's body" syndrome.
So accepting your metaphor of a gender "spectrum", a transgender person would be at the far end of their anatomical gender. That person would have the anatomical gender of a woman, but would "know" deep in their psyche that they "are" a man. Not feel like a man, or take pleasure from dressing as a man, but "be" a man. The transgender ideology takes it as a given that self-identification trumps anatomy - which is exactly where it crashes into the commonsense gender definition of society, where anatomy is destiny. When a man says "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body", straight society says, "No, you're a man with a nutty brain trapped inside it".
Going back to your statement - rephrased by your's truly :D - you are actually asking why all crossdressers don't identify themselves at the far end of the gender spectrum. Your obvious mistake is that you allow no middle ground along your own spectrum. A rainbow has many colors, no? :D


Sure there are exceptions to the rule as in someone liking to use panties because they are more comfortable and it has no "feminine" connotations for them.



Obviously, your exception doesn't count around here.



But is this denial based on the fact that someone would not want to challenge their male ego?


What was "object/deny/ argue" above has become "denial" now. No more disagreement, just denial. And what is denied but the truth? As in the rhetorical device "You're in denial!" Sorry, the truth has not been established yet - you are stating a position, and you haven't even heard the response yet. Assuming your own assertion doesn't get you anywhere in debate. We know that you think that you are right; now it's our turn.




Or not wanting to be associated with TS (or be in the same broad category as they are?


Now I think we're getting somewhere! What you've done here is to admit that, in your own mind the people you are talking about are not transgendered. You are allowing for that "spectrum" now and talking about associations among people along said spectrum. What began as "Why won't you admit that you are transgendered" has become "Why won't you identify in the "same broad category" as transgendered people. Rather a different question, isn't it?



Or is it more because they is not a true grasp of what the terminology all means?


Putting aside the typo, I stand on what I said above. You are the one who has scrambled terminology, ignoring the spectrum of gender dysphoria, and lumping all degrees of gender mixing with the single term transgender. If you don't keep the difference between a graduated scale and a single point on the scale, then you're bound to get into trouble.



Yes, then there is the issue of resisiting "labeling". But gee, it seems there has to be a way of defining ourselves, no matter how broad the spectrum is.



I couldn't agree more! :D Dismissing labels is just avoiding the effort of thinking about our nature. Not a crime, but no virtue either.




It is also important to find ways to stick together instead of differentiating more and more.


That's a mouthful! First half first: Why is it important to stick together? I think that it's reasonable to say that this is the "take-home message" of this post. In fact, I read it as the motivation for the assertions seen above. And it is also the problem. Let me rephrase and abbreviate the entire post:

1. It is important that "people like us" - people affecting cross-gender associations - stick together against the disapproval of society.

2. In order to encourage unity among ouselves , and support those of us at the extreme of gender dysphoria, we should all identify with the extreme and stand with them. In that way, we support ourselves by association.




By all accounts and all definitions I have encountered, it is clear to me that crossdressing/transvestism belongs in the Transgender category.

All are invited to comment and/or "educate" me.


Ask and ye shall receive - considered yourself educated. You now have a new account. But then I think it's not really new to you.


All of which leaves open the question of whether crossdressers should consider themselves transgendered. Can you be a little bit transgendered, or is it like being pregnant? And in any case, how much does a straight weekend crossdresser share with a gay 24/7 crossdresser? And how much does a fetish pantyboy share with a post-op transgendered person? Does a happily married crossdresser share more with a transgendered person, a gay crossdresser, or a straight guy? Nothing I said above begins to answer any of these questions, so don't assume. You know what they say about assuming....:D

[Toyah]

Yes, I know this has been discussed at nauseum before. But I find it hard to believe that any cders on this site would object/deny/ argue that they fall under the Transgender category in the gender spectrum.

But is this denial based on the fact that someone would not want to challenge their male ego? Or not wanting to be associated with TS (or be in the same broad category as they are? Or is it more because they is not a true grasp of what the terminology all means? Yes, then there is the issue of resisiting "labeling". But gee, it seems there has to be a way of defining ourselves, no matter how broad the spectrum is. It is also important to find ways to stick together instead of differentiating more and more.

By all accounts and all definitions I have encountered, it is clear to me that crossdressing/transvestism belongs in the Transgender category.

All are invited to comment and/or "educate" me.

Michelia


I am quite happy to be called a CD or a Tranny huh tough if that offends you I know it does some
But to be lumped into some Transgender quite honestly offends me

I am not nor desire to be female
I do not want to be with a guy
I like wearing female clothes but that does not make me effeminate
99% of the time I dress and present wholly as a guy I do not wear women's clothes under my male clothes and never will
I am sick of self analyzing me me mees trying to define who I am. I am me. I like the people here but am tired of those who think they can impose their narrow minded view of the world on everyone else.
Dont endlessly try to line the shrinks pockets boy do they see you coming, just do what you want to do but dont tell others what they should do.

[Dasein9]

Transeo in Latin, which is where we get the prefix "trans" from means a bunch of things. To cross, to pass over, to desert, to treat cursorily, to overstep, to surpass, to go over, to go across, to pass by, to go by, to shift, to pass by, to pass away, to cross over to, to desert to, to change into, to penetrate, and to permeate.

Now, one thing none of us do, I think, is treat gender cursorily. Otherwise, any and all of these may apply to CD's, TV's, and TS's. (Did I leave anyone out?)

This is why I think of transgender as a blanket term that includes cross-dressing, transvestism, and transsexuality. We certainly do shift, change, penetrate, and permeate the very flexible borders that exist between the genders, as they are understood in Western society. That's what we have in common. Of course, the degree to which we do this is why we have the terms that fall under the umbrella of transgender.

I'm grateful for labels, even if they do get confusing and carry the danger of being confining. Without labels, we don't know who we are, or whether there are others like us in the world. The sense of enormous relief I felt upon learning that there are words for the kind of person I am is something I'd find it difficult to put into words.

[aka.laura]

Being a healthcare pro I know how important diagnoses are to patients. No matter how bizare the label one puts on a problem, as long as the patient can walk out of the office with a name for his/her problem, the customer 's happy. I feel the same thing applies to a lot of "us". But girls: who cares !? To my wife I'm a guy with a very feminine side and she couldn't care less about how I would call myself. Why bother? Love you!

[Dixie]

It's not that I am disagreeing with what you are saying, it's just that labels just simply don't fully encompass who each individual within the "label" is and tend to be a little confining. "I thought you were only a crossdresser....I thought you said you were transgendered...." No matter what label is attached to you, there are bound to be extensions or exclusions of your personality that do not fit into the nice neat little box that someone insists on assigning to you.

[Dasein9]

That's true. It's always a danger of labeling.
On the other hand, though, if we don't have words for certain human experiences, then we don't have any way to talk about them or recognise those who share our experience, or at least some aspect of it. At least with the labels, we have something to start with in figuring out where the label does and does not accurately describe us.

[AmberTG]

I think we just need better labels to describe the people who are somewhere inbetween. Cross-dresser works fine for those who don't identify as female in some way, who feel that they are "a man with a femme side". Nothing wrong with that label as a way to describe that person. Transsexual, transgender are good ways to describe a person of one physical sex who identifies as primarily the other gender. Nothing wrong with that label either, except what the "Jerry Springer" type shows have done to it. It's the ones who are floating somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum, like me, that don't have an acceptable "label" to describe us, a one word term that fits. "trans" goes too far, "CD" doesn't go far enough.
For me, it's a dilemma, I don't identify as a man, but I don't identify as a woman either, so I have no convenient label to describe myself. I'm closer to trans then CD but neither really fits me.

[Dixie]

Dixie that's my "label" or "me".

[Dasein9]

It's the ones who are floating somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum, like me, that don't have an acceptable "label" to describe us, a one word term that fits. "trans" goes too far, "CD" doesn't go far enough.
For me, it's a dilemma, I don't identify as a man, but I don't identify as a woman either, so I have no convenient label to describe myself. I'm closer to trans then CD but neither really fits me.

Like "genderqueer?"

I tend to put this one under the transgender umbrella, myself, because genderqueer persons also tend to permeate the boundaries of gender.

[Dasein9]

Dixie that's my "label" or "me".

Well, sure. And "Das" is my specific label. But if we're conversing, it might help you to know that I'm also trans, ftm, a grad student, a bibliophile, and a host of other labels too.

I'm not trying to undermine what you're saying -- you've brought up some good points about the danger of labeling. But I also think that the danger doesn't obviate the need for labels, just for their mis-use.

[kerrianna]

I agree with you Michelia.

I think sometimes people confuse TG with TS. To me transgender does refer to anyone who crosses typical gender boundaries - and all of those are illusionary anyway, like labels. But like Das said, we use these terms to be able to communicate this stuff with each other. We're all unique beings and exist beyond all the boxes, but for discussion purposes I think TG is useful for describing anyone challenging social conventions of gender.

Anyone dressing or adopting the flavour of the opposite sex is TG in my opinion.

[MarinaTwelve200]

Not ALL CD is TG by a long shot. Dressing as a member of the opposite sex is not an activity in itself, but rather something we do to express an internal urge or desire or to evoke a personal psycological or sexual response.

A male with a need to express one's fem side, will CD, A Transsexual will CD, a man with a fetish for women's clothing will CD, CDing can be used to psychologically escape ones "self" or "maleness" or both, CDing can be used produce a "high" or "thrill"---either sexual or of the "taboo tripping" variety.

CDing is only TG if the reason behind one's CDing is TG based. CDing is only a common "symptom" or "response" to various peoples various urges or conditions. CD in itself cannot be related to any one specific condition any more than a cough is a unique symptom to only one disease.



At least 3 different "families" of conditions induce people to cross dress.

DIRECT SEXUAL, ---Its a turn on. A fetish or ultimate penitration fantasy for example. or as masochistic humiliation technique

IDENTITY ---Several sub sets here. CD as a tool to escape personal identity (as in becomming another person) CD as a tool to excape "Maleness". VS. CD as a tool to achieve a degree desired feminity---to express a "fem side" or a "true fem nature"--as in TS.

BRAIN REACTION BASED--- Thrill seeking ,for example.--- Violating certian "taboos" or "barriers" in the brain---such as self preservation---and even social status defense or other "forbidden" acts, and getting away with it, produces an extreme natural "thrill" or "High" in a person. It can be addictive. Some people can get this by violating the "dress taboo"---and CD to achieve it. It certianly is safer than skydiving or motorcycle jumping.

[Dasein9]

But Marina, all of the activities you describe are transgender in nature. Not transsexual, to be sure, but trans-gender, as in crossing or permeating the borders of gender.

[Dixie]

Dasein9 THAT'S IT, ONE THING I WILL NOT PUT UP WITH IS...... Just joking:D I hear what you are saying and of course you are correct with it,I mean "Howw ya gonna talk about it if ya don't know what to call it????" I just wanted to point out my discomfort with labels, unfortunately they are a somewhat neccassary evil.
Hope I did not startle or offend with the sarcasm I used in the beginning I just like to keep things light with a litle DRY humor.:D
:hugs: Dixie

[Dasein9]

Oh, Dixie, you should see the other message board I post on. It's unmoderated, and is pretty much a free-for-all. So, it's pretty difficult to tick me off, and if you do, I'll let you know.

Friends? :D

I see why you're uncomfortable. And I agree. Maybe if I put it this way: Labels can be like cars. They're good for getting around, but sometimes people get hurt by cars. That doesn't mean we should stop using cars, but it does mean we have to use them responsibly.

So, using labels responsibly is what's important, so we can get things said without taking half an hour to explain the basics. Too often, they can be a shortcut that replaces real thinking, though. That's when they become stereotypes, and dangerous.

[Toni Shelton]

I have no male EGO. So, I don't worry about Macho things. My emotion is confidence. I am Confident I am a woman, in a mans body. If that makes me transgender, then I am. I don't have to have an operation to live the rest of my life as a woman. But my wife and I know who I am. I think, Yes if we want to dress or look like the opposite sex, we are transgender

[Dasein9]

Just a notion: The term "transgender" presupposes a gender binary, a concept of male and female. So the crossing part of transgender is just a crossing from one to the other, or even the journey itself between them.

But, the term transgender challenges the presupposition of a gender binary too. We prove that the notion that humans come in two flavours doesn't work. Or at least that it doesn't describe the experience of all humans.

So, in the end, the term may render itself obsolete!

I think that's kind of cool.

[Fab Karen]

I hope you weren't actually spurned. :D




Yep! :D




The reason that you started this thread is that youknow that some CDers on this site do. Let me rephrase that sentence for you.

I find it hard to believe that there is any legitimate justification for any CDers on this site to object/deny/ argue that they fall under the Transgender category in the gender spectrum


Now I can discuss your proposition. Trans, from Latin, means "on the opposite side". So, assuming there is a gender "spectrum", transgender means "of the opposite gender", or "being the opposite gender". If I say that you are on the opposite side of the river, I don't mean that you are in the middle of the river, on your way across. In current usage, a transgendered person is either a person who has undergone medical treatment and/or surgery to change the appearance of their body to the opposite of their anatomical gender, or a person who seeks to do the same and/or feels/identifies themselves as having the consciousness of gender identity of the opposite anatomical gender - that is, "woman trapped in a man's body" syndrome.
So accepting your metaphor of a gender "spectrum", a transgender person would be at the far end of their anatomical gender. That person would have the anatomical gender of a woman, but would "know" deep in their psyche that they "are" a man. Not feel like a man, or take pleasure from dressing as a man, but "be" a man. The transgender ideology takes it as a given that self-identification trumps anatomy - which is exactly where it crashes into the commonsense gender definition of society, where anatomy is destiny. When a man says "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body", straight society says, "No, you're a man with a nutty brain trapped inside it".
Going back to your statement - rephrased by your's truly :D - you are actually asking why all crossdressers don't identify themselves at the far end of the gender spectrum. Your obvious mistake is that you allow no middle ground along your own spectrum. A rainbow has many colors, no?


trans·gen·der /trænsˈdʒɛndər, trænz‑/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trans-jen-der, tranz‑] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

[lizbendalin]

According to the book 'Transgender Rights' ed. by Paisley Currah, Richard Juang and Shannon Price Minter p. vix of the introduction:

"What does transgender mean? Since about 1995 , the meaning of transgender has begun to settle, and the term is now generally used to refer to individuals whose gender identity or expression does not conform to the social expectations of their assigned birth sex."

My understanding is that trasgender is Roman numeral I in an outline, where we have the sub-headings: crossdresser, transsexual, intersex, drag performers, gender queers, gender f**ks, femme boys and butch girls, as well as all sort of other people who find that there is more to the expression of who they are than the label of male or femal that they were assigned at birth. They find that label either limiting, false, or incomplete.

Speaking for myself. I love being a man. I do not have any desire to change that fact. That said, I also love being able to express my feminine side as Liz. I find that there is so much more to who I am than what society traditionally allows to be expressed under the heading of male. I am transgender, specifically a crossdresser. I celebrate my being a crossdresser, and I celebrate that I am transgender.

Transgender has its power and strength as a unifying thing. All people who are transgender (CD,TV,TS,DQ whatever), all have the same basic desire: to be able to be free to express their desire without judgment or prejudice. Whether that desire is to change their physical anatomy to be in line with their psychological gender, or to be able to wear panties and heels in the privacy of their own home, the desire is the same.

:2c:

Liz

[LoriFlores]

I believe that TG is an umbrella term that covers most people on this forum except for some SOs. I consider myself TG and am TG&Proud!

[vivianann]

If you would have asked me 20 years ago I would have denied being transgendered, I now consider myself to be transgendered. The older I get the more I would rather transition to living full time as a woman, I do not want to get the sex change surgery though. I would like to get the facial feminization surgery, and breast augmentation surgery, and I wish I had wide hips like a woman.

[kerrianna]

Just a notion: The term "transgender" presupposes a gender binary, a concept of male and female. So the crossing part of transgender is just a crossing from one to the other, or even the journey itself between them.

But, the term transgender challenges the presupposition of a gender binary too. We prove that the notion that humans come in two flavours doesn't work. Or at least that it doesn't describe the experience of all humans.

So, in the end, the term may render itself obsolete!

I think that's kind of cool.

And I think you're kind of cool. :battingeyelashes: :daydreaming:

[brenya]

I would have no problem with being called transgender, but I would never get a sex change, like alot of the other gurls on here I'm just me, and I'm ok with that

[DeeInGeorgia]

I agree with lizbendalin. And I an helping to start a Pride affinity group where I work, to support GLB as well as T. GLBs have supported us, so I feel I should reciprocate.

Dee

[Victoria Anne]

I cannot state this as elloquently as many of you but I do feel that labels are important inorder for people to find/feel comfortable in there station in life. I if asked am an TG/CD , now I describe it in this manner as I Cd in order to feel comfort in who I am inside TG as this further describes who I am at heart. I know that does not quite describe it but it is an apt description, for me at least. To put a fine point on it ,I am Victoria Anne Cassell , I am me.

[Sheri 4242]

I am so glad that this has been brought up!!!

Let me make this as short and succinct as possible: I have been waiting on this debate b/c I feel it is very important! I truly understand why many don't like labels. However, sometimes we need to agree on certain terms so that we can all be on the "same page" when it comes to talking about a particular subject. This said, I have actually grown a little weary of some not applying the TG label when it clearly IS applicable!!!

"Transgender" is a mental health term, used by psychologists, psychatrists, and others in the field to classify certain people, regardless if those so classified are considered as having a formal disorder, or a paraphilia, or a simple-but-specific identity role expression that socialization says goes against the norm.

Gender identity is the inner sense of being masculine or feminine, or a blended sense (androgynous). Obviously, "gender identity" is a mental state versus one's actual "anatomical" sex. TG is incongruity between one's anatomical state and one's gender identity, be it one believeing they were born in the wrong body, or one having a mental state that is both masculine and feminine in mind set.

So, whether you are TS/TV/CD, consider TG as an umbrella term!

The following says essentially the same thing, but in differing ways and/or with additional insight"


" . . . transgender (is) a blanket term that includes cross-dressing, transvestism, and transsexuality.

I'm grateful for labels, even if they do get confusing and carry the danger of being confining. Without labels, we don't know who we are, or whether there are others like us in the world. The sense of enormous relief I felt upon learning that there are words for the kind of person I am is something I'd find it difficult to put into words.


Being a healthcare pro I know how important diagnoses are to patients. No matter how bizare the label one puts on a problem, as long as the patient can walk out of the office with a name for his/her problem, the customer 's happy. I feel the same thing applies to a lot of "us". But girls: who cares !? To my wife I'm a guy with a very feminine side and she couldn't care less about how I would call myself. Why bother?


According to the book 'Transgender Rights' ed. by Paisley Currah, Richard Juang and Shannon Price Minter p. vix of the introduction:

"What does transgender mean? Since about 1995 , the meaning of transgender has begun to settle, and the term is now generally used to refer to individuals whose gender identity or expression does not conform to the social expectations of their assigned birth sex."

My understanding is that trasgender is Roman numeral I in an outline, where we have the sub-headings: crossdresser, transsexual, intersex, drag performers, gender queers, gender f**ks, femme boys and butch girls, as well as all sort of other people who find that there is more to the expression of who they are than the label of male or femal that they were assigned at birth. They find that label either limiting, false, or incomplete."

Transgender has its power and strength as a unifying thing. All people who are transgender (CD,TV,TS,DQ whatever), all have the same basic desire: to be able to be free to express their desire without judgment or prejudice. Whether that desire is to change their physical anatomy to be in line with their psychological gender, or to be able to wear panties and heels in the privacy of their own home, the desire is the same.

[Kate Simmons]

I pretty much use the term "transgender" as a common point of reference and with society, it seems to be some kind of "condition" or "thing" that people are. Once you accept yourself and others though, it's kind of hard to think of people as a "condition", especially if they have taken ownership of themselves and responsibility for their own actions. That being the case, in my mind, everyone here who identifies as "TG" is an individual and a person and I accept them as that in their own right and according to their own value and merit as that person. As it has been said though, we do need a common point of reference.:happy:

[Stephenie S]

Whew!

Steph

[Seville]

A great reply, Hon!

Thanks for taking the time to educate us.

[Cindyloo]

Labeling has become mainstream in our society and for what? We are who we are no matter what others think. By being part of this wonderful family here I have begun to express my fem side much more openly than I ever have before. I'm happy that I can do this and not feel ashamed.

Cindy

[MarinaTwelve200]

Gender identity is the inner sense of being masculine or feminine, or a blended sense (androgynous). Obviously, "gender identity" is a mental state versus one's actual "anatomical" sex. TG is incongruity between one's anatomical state and one's gender identity, be it one believeing they were born in the wrong body, or one having a mental state that is both masculine and feminine in mind set.

So, whether you are TS/TV/CD, consider TG as an umbrella term!

The following says essentially the same thing, but in differing ways and/or with additional insight"

But there are several kinds of IDENTITY other than just "gender Identity" that make up our psychological identity profile. There is "Personal Identity"---That is Me vs you vs him or Jack doe vs John Jones. There is Human/animal Identity, and even inanimate vs anamate identity

A kind of HERARCHY exists to the Identity components. The basic is Animate vs animate "I am a living being--not an object" Then comes Human/animal "I am a human being" Then comes Gender "I am a male(or female ) human, Then comes Personal " I am John Jones" ===There may also be a "sexuality" identity component(not as definate). ie, Homosexual vs Hetro---That would be between the gender and personal identity in the herarchy.

Here we can see that "issues" at different levels of identity can result in different "eccentricities" in humans. Obviously, Most CD and also TS can be traced to the gender identity level, although, as am "escapist CD" I see it in the personal level, myself. as my main point is to be "not me" rather than a "fem me"--I think ACTORS also operate from the Personal ID level--although they may not all be CDing--- I See MY CDing is a tool to make a more intense ID break.

The humam VS animal ID is very similar to the gender one---"Transformationists and "furry" types have their issues here. The "turned to an object, petrification and fetish types may be messing with their Inanimate/animate ID.

Studying aspects of identity is quite facinating.

[Dasein9]

But there are several kinds of IDENTITY other than just "gender Identity" that make up our psychological identity profile. There is "Personal Identity"---That is Me vs you vs him or Jack doe vs John Jones. There is Human/animal Identity, and even inanimate vs anamate identity

A kind of HERARCHY exists to the Identity components. The basic is Animate vs animate "I am a living being--not an object" Then comes Human/animal "I am a human being" Then comes Gender "I am a male(or female ) human, Then comes Personal " I am John Jones" ===There may also be a "sexuality" identity component(not as definate). ie, Homosexual vs Hetro---That would be between the gender and personal identity in the herarchy.

Here we can see that "issues" at different levels of identity can result in different "eccentricities" in humans. Obviously, Most CD and also TS can be traced to the gender identity level, although, as am "escapist CD" I see it in the personal level, myself. as my main point is to be "not me" rather than a "fem me"--I think ACTORS also operate from the Personal ID level--although they may not all be CDing--- I See MY CDing is a tool to make a more intense ID break.

The humam VS animal ID is very similar to the gender one---"Transformationists and "furry" types have their issues here. The "turned to an object, petrification and fetish types may be messing with their Inanimate/animate ID.

Studying aspects of identity is quite facinating.


It sure is! (I'm doing a major project on gender right now, and the sheer scope is baffling. I not only have to examine theories of gender and the self, but theories of the world and the other. All are intimately involved.)

[Robin Leigh]

I am so glad that this has been brought up!!!
Me too, Barbara. I always love a good gender theory thread. There have been some really excellent posts in this one. Special thanks to Das for his contributions.


sometimes we need to agree on certain terms so that we can all be on the "same page" when it comes to talking about a particular subject. This said, I have actually grown a little weary of some not applying the TG label when it clearly IS applicable!!!

Definitely. Usually, threads like this get bogged down in basic definitions & similar semantic issues. Perhaps we should work on creating a CD.com Glossary, so we can move on to actual discussion of the issues. :)

FWIW, I like to use TG as an umbrella term, but it seems it's becoming a synonym for TS. I can understand that some TS people don't like the term transsexual, because it creates the impression that transition is all about sex, sexuality & sexual activities.

I'd love to see a good theory of gender. But I suspect we'll need a good theory of consciousness first. :)

Robin

[Rita B]

As Popeye always said: "I am what I am." Hopefully, that doesn't make me a bad person (even though I like skinny gals who look like "beanpoles":heehee:).;):battingeyelashes:I always thought it was Nathan Lane who said that in "The Birdcage" haha

Your pal, Rita:hugs:


I pretty much use the term "transgender" as a common point of reference and with society, it seems to be some kind of "condition" or "thing" that people are. Once you accept yourself and others though, it's kind of hard to think of people as a "condition", especially if they have taken ownership of themselves and responsibility for their own actions. That being the case, in my mind, everyone here who identifies as "TG" is an individual and a person and I accept them as that in their own right and according to their own value and merit as that person. As it has been said though, we do need a common point of reference.:happy:Oh yes. Can a person be a crossdresser without being "gender dysphoric" or can a person be " gender dysphoric" without the opportunity to take on the outward persona of his inner self. That is the question!


Rita:hugs:

[LatexOrion]

Crossdressing is, at any level, an expression of appreciation, if not fantasisation (wow, yay me, I made a word up!!) about belonging to the opposite gender.

A guy who occasionally dresses in female clothing may have the odd time when he feels that he needs to express that femaleness. Look at most straight down the line guys: tight tee shirts, heck the worst are the ones that wear pink! Society, as a whole, is conditioned to believe that pink is a feminine colour, so is a SDtL guy showing femaleness at wearing a pink shirt/tee shirt?!

The whole issue of crossdressing is one of showing identity with the opposing gender, that identity may masquerade itself in the everyday instances or the occasional time.

[LaFem]

Old cliche: "If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then it is a duck!" (Or at least wants to look like a duck). I dress like a woman, do my best to act like a woman, and most important of all; I try to feel like a woman as much as I possibly can. Most of my life is spent trying to be as feminine as I can be as often as I can. If that isn't TG, I don't know what is.

Dressing and acting and feeling like a girl is a transgendered activity. Any amount of wordplay or argument or analysis or denial doesn't change this. I know many people hate labels, but TG is one we cannot deny. I love it!

[Miss Terr]

I was never very big on labels.
I yearn for the day when there are none.
Just call everyone by their name.

[Eva Diva]

trans·gen·der /trænsˈdʒɛndər, trænz‑/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trans-jen-der, tranz‑] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.



Taking this post to stand for others with a similar position: what of it? If the word transgender is to be taken as an umberlla term for all cross-gender presentation and identification, that doesn't deal with the point of the post that started this thread. Not many people post on the internet out of a general need to define words properly. Without looking back at the first post, can I sum up the intention as I remember it?

"We are all transgendered, therefore we should all support each other".

Is that a reasonable interpretation? I think so. :D

So now, let's get down to brass tacks. Do we all need support equally? Or is one part of the transgendered "family" in need of support from the rest? Has this subject ever been discussed before? I think so. :D

Haven't the Tri-Ess straight married types been called out for not wanting to join hands and sing Kumbaya with the LGB of LGBT? A call for unity presupposes a lack of unity. So who is being asked to join up? Seems pretty clear to me.

Call me a stickler for plain speaking, but if I have to torture intent out of a few paragraphs, then something is wrong. If someone wants to make an argument for straight crossdressers suppporting the cause of gay - and transexual - rights, then have at it; a reasonable argument can be made. I do take exception to the rhetorical device that could be called "argument by definition". This is very common in the political world, and consists of defining terms of an argument in such a way as to win the debate itself by definition. The "pro-life" and "pro-choice" boneheads know this method very well. Of course, anyone who sits through a Logic 101 course is exposed to fallacious rhetorical devices like this and should know better. That doesn't stop people from using such devices at every opportunity. Notice in our currnet American news - the "Immigrant advocates" calling for "Immigrant rights". Of course, they are talking about Illegal immigrants, not immigrants - legal immigrants have all the rights they need already.

Bringing the whole thing back to our specific context; the degree to which crossdressers of various motivations see themselves aligned with each other and with the gay community is an important topic. Dislike of "labels" doesn't absolve us of considering the issues involved when defining those labels. Is it right for a crossdresser to go clubbing to a gay bar, and then vote against gay marriage? Should straight, married crossdressers keep bisexual and gay crossdressers at arm's length so that their wives reading the forum won't make their lives miserable? Is there a quid pro quo in the decision of gay activists to add the T to LGBT? Is it immoral for crossdressers to vote Republican (or the anti-gay party of your choice)?. One could even ask of this forum: does the inclusion of wives of straight crossdressers in this site tend to work against engendering a unity among crossdressers, transexuals and the gay community? Isn't one of the biggest fears of SOs that their husbands are gay? And, my Lords, (puts on best Rumpole of the Bailey voice :D) does not the prohibition on panty pics and hookup messages on this forum serve as a subtle anti-gay message to soothe the fears of said SOs? Holy smokes! :D

My point - clear language leads to clear distinctions, which leads to clear discussion of important topics. Vague "we're all in this together" statments serve more to end discussion than to engender it. Labels really matter.

[Sallee]

Without a doubt TG is an all encompassing term from the panties underderessers to the post op TS. We who wear the clothes while being born with a penis are Transgender. Generally its because of the mores of society that the clothes are the clothes of theopposite gender But body shape certainly has something to do with it. But generally fashion and still are gender motivated

[tall_brianna]

My understanding is that trasgender is Roman numeral I in an outline, where we have the sub-headings

Mine too. There could be said to be milestones that force you into a given category. An example would be HRT - hard to argue that at that point you're not Transexual. But I think that is something, that I fear. When the second most frequent question I got last week was, "How long have you been full time?" I got scared that I was being drawn in a direction that I wasn't sure I was ready to go.

I just read "She's not there." The author mentioned some test her therapist gave her. I'd like to see that.

[Fab Karen]

Taking this post to stand for others with a similar position: what of it? If the word transgender is to be taken as an umberlla term for all cross-gender presentation and identification, that doesn't deal with the point of the post that started this thread. Not many people post on the internet out of a general need to define words properly. Without looking back at the first post, can I sum up the intention as I remember it?

"We are all transgendered, therefore we should all support each other".

Is that a reasonable interpretation? I think so. :D

So now, let's get down to brass tacks. Do we all need support equally? Or is one part of the transgendered "family" in need of support from the rest? Has this subject ever been discussed before? I think so. :D

Haven't the Tri-Ess straight married types been called out for not wanting to join hands and sing Kumbaya with the LGB of LGBT? A call for unity presupposes a lack of unity. So who is being asked to join up? Seems pretty clear to me.

Call me a stickler for plain speaking, but if I have to torture intent out of a few paragraphs, then something is wrong. If someone wants to make an argument for straight crossdressers suppporting the cause of gay - and transexual - rights, then have at it; a reasonable argument can be made. I do take exception to the rhetorical device that could be called "argument by definition"


Bringing the whole thing back to our specific context; the degree to which crossdressers of various motivations see themselves aligned with each other and with the gay community is an important topic. Dislike of "labels" doesn't absolve us of considering the issues involved when defining those labels. Is it right for a crossdresser to go clubbing to a gay bar, and then vote against gay marriage? Should straight, married crossdressers keep bisexual and gay crossdressers at arm's length so that their wives reading the forum won't make their lives miserable? Is there a quid pro quo in the decision of gay activists to add the T to LGBT? Is it immoral for crossdressers to vote Republican (or the anti-gay party of your choice)?. One could even ask of this forum: does the inclusion of wives of straight crossdressers in this site tend to work against engendering a unity among crossdressers, transexuals and the gay community? Isn't one of the biggest fears of SOs that their husbands are gay? And, my Lords, (puts on best Rumpole of the Bailey voice :D) does not the prohibition on panty pics and hookup messages on this forum serve as a subtle anti-gay message to soothe the fears of said SOs? Holy smokes! :D



Someone laid out their opinion of the word as society's definition. It was shown that concept was in error.

You're throwing out insinuating questions, maybe you could just clearly state what you mean to say? Hook-up messages & panty pics ( etc. ) do not define gay people for example.

[Alex!]

I am definitely not transgendered; that is, I know I am a man and do not wish to be anything else. Further, crossdressing is a superficial thing for me, a manifestation of a feminine side that needs to be expressed now and then. Most people, with the exception of asexuals, have male and female aspects to their psyche.

Besides, these labels serve little purpose in the final analysis because the neglect the nuances of gender and personality, among other things.

[Eva Diva]

Someone laid out their opinion of the word as society's definition. It was shown that concept was in error.

You're throwing out insinuating questions, maybe you could just clearly state what you mean to say? Hook-up messages & panty pics ( etc. ) do not define gay people for example.



Insinuating? I couldn't have been more explicit! :D


And of course, explicit hookup messages and panty pics are excluded from this site for a reason. The moderators do not enforce these rules on a whim. And the members who support these policies do so expressly to keep this site from being like the sites that do allow them. But of course, you know that. A line has been drawn between allowing non-explicit general discussion of boyfriends and sexual fantasies on one hand, and any direct, explicit statements of sexual contact between crossdressers in real time. Someone owns and runs this site, and they have a right to set any rules they want. The rest of us can either accept them or move on. That doesn't mean that the rules are sent down from a mysterious god above - they are rational, and they have rational aims. I chose to discuss my understanding of those rules, and how they fit into the discussion at hand.

Hookup messages and panty pics certainly don't define gay people, but they d*mn well do define many crossdressers. I'll be happy to pass on some of the offers I've had if you don't get them. :D Whether you call such people gay or bisexual matters little - wives of crossdressers would have no such doubts. Which leads me back to the point I brought up so clearly above, no? :D

[Rita B]

Why do i get the feeling that we are all acting like a bunch of women who are splitting hairs? The only people that I know who would probably refer to me as a transgendered person are the people on this forum. No one else knows, so no one else cares. Ok, I might tell the arresting officer who stopped me after speeding and who noticed that my license showed the picture of a man and I was dressed as a woman that yes, I was transgendered. . .like that would happen!

Frankly, I think that transgender like "Transamerica" has a nice ring to it. I like it better than transvestite or drag queen or a lot of other bad things that we "transgendered" people have been called. It almost sounds acceptable. I mean come on. Wouldn't you rather overhear someone say they thought that so and so was transgendered than to say he was a f______g transvestite or a fag or a drag queen. I don't even like the name "tranny". To me it has a connotation of someone who surfs the porn sites.

No I think that transgendered is fine. "Excuse me sir, is that bra for yourself" and you reply, "Why yes, you see I am transgendered" Works for me.

Love you all,

Rita

PS This is the smartest bunch of people that I have ever met:hugs:

[christina marie]

you may call me whatever you like. it does not change the fact that you were staring at my butt until i turned around and you saw my moustache!http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/images/smilies/tongueout.gif
:tongueout

[RobertaFermina]

I too am getting tired of the Transgender label issue.
If I'm not Transgendered, by identity or expression, that's OK with me.
I do know I have common cause and solidarity with those who are unquestionably Transgendered - even if that shrinks down to those persons who [your definition of transgendered persons here].

Frankly, my adventure into studying and (attempting) practice of feminine adornment, dress, gesture, language, and intangible ontological categories is what it is, and does for me what it does, no matter how you define 'is', 'do', or 'pantybind'.

Whether I fit the labels or not, I'm riding the Tigress with an open heart, open mind and trusting in my intuition and impulses.

If you want to label me or my activity Transgendered, I hope it works for you.
If you don't, I wish you the same.
If you want to share your label vocabulary, etymology, symbollary, or semiotics with me, understand I am participating to further your process, not to seek any form of agreement or disagreement with you.

I am what I am, and I'm dying to find out what that is and what's next !

And PLEASE, if you hear me come up for a label for it, JUST SHOOT ME!

In faithful defiance !

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Fab Karen]

Insinuating? I couldn't have been more explicit! :D


I chose to discuss my understanding of those rules, and how they fit into the discussion at hand.

Hookup messages and panty pics certainly don't define gay people, but they d*mn well do define many crossdressers. I'll be happy to pass on some of the offers I've had if you don't get them. :D Whether you call such people gay or bisexual matters little - wives of crossdressers would have no such doubts. Which leads me back to the point I brought up so clearly above, no? :D
Maybe you'll answer the questions you posed then?

They define SOME crossdressers, just as such things define SOME of any group you could name. SOME people do, so they shouldn't be called transgender because you want to pretend that transgender people aren't human like any group of people? Is that your point?

[Vicky_Scot]

By all accounts and all definitions I have encountered, it is clear to me that crossdressing/transvestism belongs in the Transgender category.

Transgender - a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

It has always belonged in the Transgender category my dear.

The transgender community encompasses transexuals, transvestites & crossdressers.

[Dasein9]

I am definitely not transgendered; that is, I know I am a man and do not wish to be anything else. Further, crossdressing is a superficial thing for me, a manifestation of a feminine side that needs to be expressed now and then. Most people, with the exception of asexuals, have male and female aspects to their psyche.

Besides, these labels serve little purpose in the final analysis because the neglect the nuances of gender and personality, among other things.

Okay, I'm confused. (That happens a lot.) You're saying that you're both crossdressing, but not crossing (trans) any gender boundaries? Where does the crossing come in, then?

[Kieron Andrew]

Okay, I'm confused. (That happens a lot.) You're saying that you're both crossdressing, but not crossing (trans) any gender boundaries? Where does the crossing come in, then?
Thanks Das, even im confused now!

[Sheri 4242]

I believe that TG is an umbrella term . . . I consider myself TG and am TG&Proud!

Das, Skirt_Lover, Robin Leigh, and Lori, and others, are right on track!!! We should approach TG as an umbrella term for something that is broad.

Part of the problem is that some appear to resent and/or fear that there is some sort of "stigma" that they don't particularly like in being transgendered. The broad definition that some have offered (amazingly offered by those arguing that they aren't transgendered) actually proves this point, to wit: a person appearing as, or attempting to be a member of, the opposite sex. One doesn't have to have any desire to become a female to be transgendered; the broad definition runs along a spectrum from those who desire to dress to some degree, even slight dressing, or underdressing, or infrequent dressing from time-to-time, all the way to actually wanting to become female, and EVERYTHING between these. Yes, that's very broad -- and yes, "some" on one side of the spectrum (the 'dressing to fulfill an inner urge side where there is no desire to ever transition') seem to fear being associated with those at the other end -- transsexuals.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: "transgender" is a mental health term more than anything else. Currently, medical and mental health professionals "do" classify those with gender issues. (If we want to take issue with something, how about some unity against those who say CDing has to be fetishtic.) Those who are up-to-date in current approaches in medical/mental health are NOT looking for "cures" -- they are NOT suggesting it can be cured -- they ARE promoting self-acceptance and any necessary adaptation.

Is it really so difficult to grasp that someone can be male (and want to be male), yet have a desire to present at various frequencies in articles of what are currently designated as female clothing?

A'hhh -- maybe therein lies the real problem: being able to grasp the incongruity. One of the most prominent medical diagnosis books available sustains this by noting that "labeling," in and of itself, may be a good part of the problem b/c it causes and/or adds to mental distress!!!!!!!

I am of the opinion that, to be able to discuss things with clarity, there must exist basic, standard definitions. Some definitions are quite specific, some are broad. That's life.

All of the above having been said, there is anatomical sex and there is gender. Anatomy is objective, gender can be subjetive. As one medical book states, gender is everthing that a person says and does to indicate to themself, and sometimes to others, their degree of maleness and femaleness. (Note: it says "their degree of.") This differs from what is called "core gender identity" which is the subjective sense of actually knowing to which gender one belongs (i.e., "I am male," or, "I am female"). Gender role identity (which isn't the same thing as core gender identity) is the expression spectrum. For many, these two are congruous. It is when they aren't -- to any degree -- that one is transgendered, regardless if those so classified are considered as having a formal disorder, or a paraphilia, or a simple-but-specific identity role expression that socialization says goes against the norm.

[Ruth]

Labels, labels. I've just been reading a book on androgyny. Very interesting. Opportunity for another label.
I would say (rather unhelpfully) we're all variations on the same thing - a human being.
I'm suspicious of labels because people may use them for their own purposes which are not mine.