Historical examples in western cultures...

[edina1]

Just wondering if people know of local stories of men deressing as women and being accepted? Recall in Scotland tales of 'Aberdeen Annie' - well known in the 1960s in fishing quarter of the city, and other tales of men living in normal daily life dressed as women - thought of as curiousities, but not reviled... was this externely unusual or only really valid in eastern cultures? Any other examples? (and no, kilts don't count, nor provide explanations...)

[Dixie]

Where i grew up there was a girl who from very early on wanted to be a boy, what I mean is she knew she was a boy with a girls body, anyway she has lived her life as a boy and now a man. Everyone knows and nobody cares. On the other hand ther was this who knew he was supposed to be a girl and his life was a living hell, he is dead now (self induced). The girl who knew she was a he is a police officer and doing quite well for herself. Crazy, same town, same age group, same peers and drasticlly different results.

[Teresa Amina]

In an historical article printed in a local SE MIchigan paper back in the 1980s was a story about an old schoolteacher. She arrived in the area just after the Civil War and taught until she was very old, dying about 1910. She never married but was a good Churchlady and liked by everyone. When the undertaker was preparing the body he found she had "extra parts" :D. Nobody knew she was a he, but then she wasn't really, was she? :heehee:

[renee99]

Doesn't answer your question, but Wikipedia has a page where they link to all the other articles on traditional non-western transgender expression:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Transgender_in_non-western_cultures

This is a pretty good way to sink anyone's argument who claims that transgenderism is some kind of newfangled thing that only exists because society is so damn permissive...

[Kerry Owens]

It isn't new, and I imagine that if one were historian enough...well, you could find a multitude of cases of folks who crossdressed through out time. Adding in the fact there were a lot of times when male/female clothing was basically the same (a tunic of varying lengths) limited only by ones budget or social status, I expect it's always been happening.

[RuthieER]

One of my favorite crossdressers in history is Edward Hyde, Viscount Lord Cornbury. (Hyde Park in London is named after him.) In the early 1700s, during the reign of Queen Anne, he was governor of the colonies of New Jersey and Delaware. He was a corrupt scoundrel, giving jobs to his disreputable friends and embezeling funds right and left. But apart from that, he was a very public crossdresser, often appearing in full feminine regalia, even at official government functions. This was the least of the criticisms his oponents leveled against him. When asked why he dressed as a woman, he said it was in honor of the Queen, whose representative he was. He was finally removed from office, but not before he had his official gubanatorial portrait painted en femme. I understand this portrait is preserved in the state capitol of New Jersey, in their gallery of past governors.

Ruthie

[Butterfly Bill]

I can think of an example from 18th century France,
Chevalier d'Eon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d%27Eon

[AmberTG]

There was a FTM that I've read about in the old west who was a teamster and stage driver. After his death he was found to be physically female. I couldn't tell you the name, it was several years ago that I read about it. Also, according to the Newsweek gender article, jass musician Billy Tipton was found to have female anatomy after his death in 1989. I can't think of any MTFs that I know of from history.

[Opie!]

Kind of off subject but I've noticed that both crossdressing, and homosexuality is much more accepted when it's a female being true to themselves then when it's a male. Just another one of those fancy double standards that we get to live with.

[lynn27]

Just wondering if people know of local stories of men deressing as women and being accepted? Recall in Scotland tales of 'Aberdeen Annie' - well known in the 1960s in fishing quarter of the city, and other tales of men living in normal daily life dressed as women - thought of as curiousities, but not reviled... was this externely unusual or only really valid in eastern cultures? Any other examples? (and no, kilts don't count, nor provide explanations...)There were many men who dressed as females during the American Civil War, though most were crossdressed because they were gay and wanted to quarter with their man. There are also reports of women that dressed as men so that they could either fight or be with their man. In either case, some were acting as prostitutes who when from tent to tent.

[Kate Simmons]

Nothing specific to cite but based on things I have read, CD and TG has been with the human race since time immemorial and was always more or less accepted until recent history. Some of us just "feel" these things anyway.:happy:

[RuthieER]

Then of course there is Queen Christina of Sweden, who was certainly an FtM crossdresser, and may have been transexual as well, or maybe just a butch lesbian. Oppinions differ.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Christina_of_Sweden

Ruthie

[CaptLex]

Offhand I can't recall any stories of historical figures who crossdressed as women besides Governor Hyde (profiled in RuthieER's post above), but I've read many stories of women who crossdressed as men throughout history for various reasons. Some were soldiers who wanted to fight during the Revolutionary and Civil wars in the U.S (like Deborah Sampson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Sampson). Some were pirates - Anne Bonny and Mary Read being the most famous (or infamous) ones.

And there's an account (Lieutenant Nun - written in her own hand) of a woman raised in a Spanish convent during colonial times who escaped and traveled to the New World where she fought as a soldier for Spain and even ended up killing her own brother (she didn't know he was) in a duel. She managed to keep up the deception for about 20 years and when found out she returned to Spain a hero and was given a pension by the army and permission by the Pope himself to continue crossdressing.

Of course, there are the stories of Joan of Arc, and Mulan (made an animated movie by Disney). No one is really sure if Mulan really existed, but I understand she's considered a hero (heroine?) in China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Mulan. There was even a female pope (Pope Joan) that had to hide her true identity.

For most of these women their lives and livelihoods would have been endangered if they were found out, so it wasn't an accepted practice at that time.

[MarinaTwelve200]

Well, one thing I saw on TV a few years back was a news story about the popularity of Gilbert & Sullivan---The reporter visited a british boys school who were doing an expensive production of "Pirates of penzance". I specifically remember him interviewing a boy, who was obviously playing one of the daughters ----The kid was wearing an 1880's woman's dress an elaborate wig and was impecably made up.

The reporter asked, "How do you like being a girl?" The kid just shruged, like it was no big deal, as to say "whatever", and went back to his preparations at his dressing table.

I see that the Brits have a tradition of such stuff at boys schools.

---But another observation, the story gave me an insight. It seems to us actual CDs that being Dressed as a girl (like for a play or skit) WAS a big deal, either positively or negatively, when we were kids. We took it seriously, either being very (truly)enbarrased or hiding our joy beneath a very solemn front.

While non -CD types, will either loudly joke about it while dressing as girls or simply shrug it off (like the kid mentioned above) as a thing that has to be done.

[Sheri 4242]

The first four that come to mind are "the Joans" (Pope Joan and Joan of Arc, then jazz's Billy Tipton. Then, somewhere there was this "cowpoke" named Little Jo Monaghan. Of course, Kerry is absolutely correct:


" . . . there were a lot of times when male/female clothing was basically the same (a tunic of varying lengths) limited only by ones budget or social status, I expect it's always been happening.

Look, for example, at the elite Greek soldiers -- long tradition of wearing a fairly nice looking short dress-like uniform (displayed frequently when Athens hosted the Olympics). And, the Romans: same thing. Early Roman elite wore short, nice (eg, silk) dress-like outfits. The women of the day pretty much wore long robes, as did men of lesser means.


There was a FTM that I've read about in the old west who was a teamster and stage driver. After his death he was found to be physically female.

I recall reading about the teamster you are talking about. Also, there was a career merchant marine (seaman) where it was the exact same deal . . . tought sailor, but when it was autopsy time, this tough old salty "he" was a "she."


There are also reports of women that dressed as men so that they could either fight or be with their man. In either case, some were acting as prostitutes who when from tent to tent.

There are more documented cases (during the Civil War -- or, as we in the south call it, "The War of Northern Aggression" -- LOL) of females passing as males to be able to be soldiers.

In many early historical military stories, there are numerous stories of men who dressed as women (to avoid battle presumably); it was found that they mainly served in "back support," primarily tending the wounded. Conversely, while not as wide-spread, there are many cases of women dressing as men to be able to fight.


Of course, there are the stories of Joan of Arc, and Mulan (made an animated movie by Disney). No one is really sure if Mulan really existed, but I understand she's considered a hero (heroine?) in China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Mulan. There was even a female pope (Pope Joan) that had to hide her true identity.

Mulan is what would be properly termed as "historic legend." May well have existed, but sans documentation, Mulan must be relegated as legend until (and if) properly documented.

[RuthieER]

I notice most of these accounts are of women disguising themselves as men in order to survive in a male-dominated world. There seem to be very few documented cases of MtF CDs in history who did it "for fun" or self-expression. We know they were out there, just hidden from the annals of history! Keep digging, girls!

Ruthie

P.S. I don't know if this is the offical church designation, but I have always considered St. Joan to be the Patron Saint of Crossdressers, and sometimes wear a St. Joan medal while out en femme.