Believable theories on Cross-dressing [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Rita B

05-27-2007, 07:17 PM

Ashley, I have taken the time to scan the articles. I would like to go back and read them again but more slowly. I find all these theories interesting. The scientific community would just love to come up with an answer that they could easily put under a "microscope" and say, aha, here it is. I am sure that there are valid points in all these studies.

I tend to more closely explore the environmental factors. In today's society where divorce is rampant, and there are so many one parent households, the woman has become the role model for both the boys as well as for the girls. Even in families with both parents, there are so many instances where fathers total abdicate their responsibilities to be acceptable role models for their sons.

I remember my mother talking to one of her lady friends who happened to be divorced and she admitted to allowing her 10 year old son to sleep with her from time to time. I knew I grew up in a matriarchal society. I was much more in the company of women than men all my life. I was adopted when I was 2 and I am sure that my mother wanted a girl.

It is so easy to to admire our mothers and desire to be like them in many ways. I am enclosing a pic Would love to talk to you more about this subject.

Regards

Rita

Ashleigh

05-27-2007, 07:26 PM

Hi Rita,

I have had a belief that children at age 4,5,6 do not, at least when I was a child of that age, have sexual drives anything like a 12 year old on up. In fact, that is the last thing they want to deal with. When I was 5, I wasn't dressing to satisfy a sexual thing. It felt wonderful and right. I can't explain it even to this day. I has a two parent home, both parents highly educated and stable in the community. No one in my family has a criminal record at all. My home life was a (at that time) typical one. I have no sisters, only brothers. When I was very young, I remember being teased by my father mostly as well as my brothers about liking girl things. They have no idea about my dressing.

I just need to know.

A :doll:

Stephacuse

05-27-2007, 07:28 PM

i read both of these and both sound like good theories. I'm not sure about the DNA one but i do agree that it is a need and not a hobby as most who once start it can only stop for a certain amount of time......perhaps crossdressing is more addictive and hard to quit then nicotine and most drugs?

Rita B

05-27-2007, 07:38 PM

Ashley,

I apologize. I have been trying to get my pic withing the 97kB allowed with some difficulty.

The picture tells a story about what a mother thought of her little boy

Rita

Joy Carter

05-27-2007, 07:46 PM

Rita. Mothers dressed their son's up all the time between the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. I have a pic of my great uncle in a dress about age three. He was born about 1890.
I don't think it's is a cause in all cases. If it was then allot of men would have been cross dressers fifty years ago.

Kate Simmons

05-27-2007, 08:06 PM

Toyah

05-27-2007, 08:34 PM

I put it down to Aliens transporting my mother to a panty ship, why because that's as good a guess as to why I do it as this kinda scientific guess coz that's all it is to be honest not even a good one. when they say its wired in but hey in some not until 40 or so you know its hogwash

Stephenie S

05-27-2007, 08:51 PM

I gave up trying to answer the question of WHY many years ago. Does it matter? Not to me.

I have said again and again, trying to figure out why is a very masculine trait. Just relax and enjoy it, dear. It's not going to go away no matter how much you analize it.

Lovies,
Stephenie

Rita B

05-27-2007, 09:05 PM

Rita Mothers dressed their son's up all the time between the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. I have a pic of my great uncle in a dress about age three. He was born about 1890.
I don't think it's is a cause in all cases. If it was then allot of men would have been cross dressers fifty years ago.Joy, there were a lot of crossdressers then, I don't remember who the royal figure was who tried to escape from the mobs by dressing as a woman. It might have been of the czars. Heck the men dressed more frilly in satins and lace than the women.

Rita

Rita B

05-27-2007, 09:13 PM

The two theories notwithstanding, it would seem we have the ability to go above and beyond the so called "normal" binary gender classification system. We have a distinct advantage if we view it as a gift and blessing rather than a curse and something that controls us. This puts us in a position to be an improved human being in many ways. Like any gift, however, how it is used depends a lot on the person who has it. It depends on us.:happy: Salandra, you are the guru of crossdressers. Must confess, there have been times in my life when I considered it a terrible curse with severe consequences which I do not wish to discuss here in the forum. As Frank Sinatra used to sing, " I have been up and down and round and round and I know a thing" You know my situation but I am being positive about it and it's about time. Yes, we are darn special people. How many non crossdressers do you know that could pull off what we do? I know that I would have enjoyed living my life as a woman. It just was meant to be. So we make the most of it. You are a dear person:love:

Rita

Rita B

05-27-2007, 09:20 PM

Ashley,

There will come a day when the why is not going to be as important to you as what you choose to do about it. I am old enough to tell you this. It will not go away. . The earlier in your life that you accept this and if you are in a relationship come to a compromise with a partner, the happier I think you will be. Put yourself in a position where you control it rather than have it control you. You pick the when, where, and how. You just cannot deny this energy that is within you, believe me. Enjoy who you are. It can be a gift!

Rita

TxKimberly

05-27-2007, 09:25 PM

My mother tells me she was on birth control when I was concieved - surprise!
I often wondered if this had anything to do with it.
Kim

Bernadina

05-27-2007, 09:29 PM

Eva Diva

05-27-2007, 09:42 PM

There is no explanation of the "stuttering gene" theory, so I guess we are just to assume that genetics has something to do with crossdressing.

A bigger problem is the writers "the creator wants this to happen" theory. If that is true - God messing around with the dice - then there's no point to considering causes. If God wants males to be a little female, then surely God can decide that thisparticular male should be a lot female. End of story.

Ashleigh

05-27-2007, 09:52 PM

Cute pic!

A:doll:

Ashley,

I apologize. I have been trying to get my pic withing the 97kB allowed with some difficulty.

The picture tells a story about what a mother thought of her little boy

Rita

Ashleigh

05-27-2007, 10:07 PM

Don't get me wrong. I am just an analytical person who needs to know the why's of everything. I don't just take things on face value or because someone said something. I agree with you and the others who suggest to accept it, which I have - totally. I love it in fact. It would just be nice to know what is behind it. I do not deny the "energy" (good word for it) or that it is a special thing. The one thing I do like is my sensitivity. My wife said she was attracted to it when she first met me many many moons ago.

The people in my community are fairly hard - even the females. It is a weakness in their minds to show emotion. Heck, at the risk of destroying myself here on this forum, I have a hard time getting through movies like Mr. Holland's Opus, Seabisquit, and those like them. They are well written masterpieces. They are sensitive movies and I tear up. Heck, when I was young my father took me to see Lobo, and to this day I can't watch it without tearing up. He made merciless fun of me back then and would do so now. I like my softer feminine side. I consider it a strength. What makes me sick are those guys who go around saying "hit in the gut as hard as you can"... and spitting, and....

In fact, I put females on such a high pedestal, that I know we guys could never reach their level. In my humble opinion, they are superior to us in so many ways and I have said so.

So, yes, we have a "gift" as it was called, that I would think that real females would love. Too bad all too many don't.

I appreciate all of your inputs.

A:doll:

Ashley,

There will come a day when the why is not going to be as important to you as what you choose to do about it. I am old enough to tell you this. It will not go away. . The earlier in your life that you accept this and if you are in a relationship come to a compromise with a partner, the happier I think you will be. Put yourself in a position where you control it rather than have it control you. You pick the when, where, and how. You just cannot deny this energy that is within you, believe me. Enjoy who you are. It can be a gift!

Rita

marie354

05-27-2007, 10:23 PM

I guess that theories are OK for some that really have a need to explain what we do in some kind of scientific way, but I don't think that any have been proven one way or another.
This subject comes up every once in a while, and from what I've read, there are as many theories as there are crossdressers. Who knows for sure why.
I used to try to figure it out... Doing the "paper chase" thing, looking for answers.
I wore my sisters baby cloths for about the first 6 months of my life. Was I old enough to realize that I was male and the clothes weren't? Probably not.
How do you know that the color "red" isn't "blue"? Because we were taught that it was.

Answers? I don't need them any more. I searched for them long enough. I accept myself for who I am, who I have always been, even when I tried to deny it.
:hugs:

Satrana

05-27-2007, 11:51 PM

I'm at a loss as to why we need a theory at all.

A theory implies that transgenderism in any form is unnatural.

After all, and unless I'm greatly mistaken, we all, each and everyone of us, without exception, are the product of a male and female set of parents.

Which means we are all part male and part female whether we like it or not.

Just because a lot of politicians, sociologists, scientists, and theologians work hard to pretend that transgenderisn is abnormal, and force society to accept their flawed views, its just not true.

Transgenderism is a natural part of nature and does need any theories to explain nor does it need fixing.

Exactly:hugs:

Just because we differ from SOCIAL norms does not mean we need a theory to explain ourselves. If tomorrow society accepted crossdressing then nobody would need to develop extravagent theories to explain a normal behaviour, would they? Shouldn't we instead be developing theories to explain why society has made crossdressing taboo?

Crossdressers are completely normal people. We don't do anything which differs from others' behavior. Just because we are borrowing from women does not suddenly transform the behavior from normal to abnormal.

Everyone is transgendered, that is the normal state of human existance. It is society which conditions us to believe in a binary system so we are artificially adhering to an arrangement which does not reflect the normal spread of human personality and behavior.

Do left handers spend all their time developing theories about why they differ from the majority. Do they think to themselves "GOSH WHAT WENT WRONG? IS IT MY DNA?, HORMONES?, DRUGS MY MOTHER TOOK WHILE PREGNANT?".

The fact is nothing went wrong. Life is about diversity, it does not follow strict rules, each animal is an individual and behaves correspondingly. Are we so scared to think of ourselves as a separate, distinct individuals that we have to believe in SOMETHING WENT WRONG theories?:(

Diversity is normal, get used to it!:tongueout

Andi

05-28-2007, 01:23 AM

Theories, schmeories!!! I hope no one ever figures it out. I don't want to be "cured", I like it like it is.

Caroline

05-28-2007, 04:21 AM

Much of the social-sciences are replete with theories that are simply a variation of the nature/nurture debate, and few of them have much general application to any specific individual case. In other words, what makes me a cross-dresser is unlikely to have much relevance, if any, to what makes you one, therefore extrapolating my perceived grounds for doing so as an explanation or theory why others cross-dress is simply a meaningless exercise in futility. (It is also important to note the word 'perceived' in the previous sentence, since what appears to be the case may not, in fact, be so.)

Neither do either of these two theories put forward address the issue that the original poster claimed, viz:

<blockquote>This would also explain why children, very young ones, have the female tendencies we did when we were 4,5,6, and so on.</blockquote>

In the first place, neither theory defines what is meant by a 'female tendency', far less do they explain how these develop - the corollary is also true regarding 'male tendencies'. Secondly, for a theory to be a valid scientific theory rather than just an untested hypothesis, the research should not just concern itself with proving its case, but with disproving it, as it is the failure to disprove it - by the original researchers, peer-reviewers, and subsequent researchers - which give true credibility to the conclusions, yet neither of these theories appears to concern itself with this important aspect. The ineluctable conclusion, therefore, is that the claims are little more than unsubstantiated hypotheses; one might as well say that all male-to-female crossdressers are such because they hate their fathers and want to differentiate themselves from him - in fact, I'm sure one could readily knock up some so-called 'research' to substantiate that claim too.

I appreciate that the original poster wishes to understand why they cross-dress, but the reasons are more likely to be found in one's own unique background - genetically and socially - than in the experiences of others.

Sheri 4242

05-28-2007, 04:22 AM

Don't get me wrong. I am just an analytical person who needs to know the why's of everything. I don't just take things on face value or because someone said something. I agree with . . . others who suggest to accept it, which I have - totally. I love it in fact. It would just be nice to know what is behind it.

I have had a belief that children at age 4,5,6 do not, at least when I was a child of that age, have sexual drives anything like a 12 year old on up . . . (w)hen I was 5, I wasn't dressing to satisfy a sexual thing. It felt wonderful and right. I can't explain it even to this day. I has a two parent home, both parents highly educated and stable in the community. No one in my family has a criminal record at all. My home life was a (at that time) typical one. I have no sisters, only brothers.

Ashleigh,

I'm much the same as you -- an analytical person. I also agree that "self-acceptance" of being a CD is a good thing. I have accepted it, and, in fact, I love who and what I am! This wasn't always the case, but today I am firmly established in this belief!!!

The research I conduct on causation, and my participation in discussions on this site regarding causation and terminology, is NOT aimed at someday being able to "cure" it. I am -- purely, plainly, and simply -- (a.) a person with an intense curiosity as to what might cause something (and my curiosity and research are not exclusive to crossdressing), and (b.) I hold that it is not "labeling" to have a consistent agreement regarding terms and definitions so that we can all "be on the same page," so to speak, when discussing things. Those that get so upset when we, for example, attempt to clarify the term "transgender" often reject such b/c, so they say, they dislike or reject being "labeled." There is another thread right now -- and which seems to be on-going -- that discusses TG definition. I am of the opinion that, to be able to discuss things with clarity, there must exist basic, standard definitions.

((( BTW: current medical thought, theory, and opinions regarding anybody with gender identity issues, inclusive of CDing -- note: I am carefully avoiding use of the TG term here, since it is being debated so heatedly elsewhere -- is not aimed at "curing," but is aimed at promoting self-acceptance and adaptation! The most recent medical experts state that it is far better to help people accept and adapt than to dissuade them from their identity! )))

In response to your inquiry, the "hormone bath" is not a theory -- it actually happens. That being the case, it is not a far reach to believe that, given human biology/physiology, there could be "malfunctions," and that these, in turn, could effect one's developing brain, and thus effect gender identity -- from transsexualism on one end of the spectrum, to mtf heterosexual CDing on the other end.

You have brought up (without calling it such) another theory that has been discussed a great deal, and that very simply is "nurture." Your own childhood experiences seem to point out that this isn't viable -- there are too many of us who came from typical homes (and no sisters that dressed us up, etc.). You have also pointed out that many of us started dressing (or wanted to dress) long before we could attach a sexual component to the dressing. That's why I dislike it when some in the mental health field call CDing a fetish. I understand that some CD's dress for fetishtic reasons, but not all of us!!!

The Hormone Bath makes perfect sense to me b/c of the possible effects of an abnormal hormone bath on the developing brain!!! In a few recent, albeit small, studies, it has been found that TGs had a certain part of their brain -- the BST or "bed nucleus of stria terminalis" -- that was the size of a GG's!!! As one text puts it, a GG's BST is smaller than that of a GM, and in the few studies to-date, the BST of those identified as TG has been the same size of a GG's.

Well, that's my input. I'll end by stating that I am glad that current medical approaches are not aimed at curation, but rather at acceptance and adaptation. To me, that says that science is beginning to say maybe we aren't abnormal at all!!!

Barbara

Caroline

05-28-2007, 04:32 AM

Sheri 4242

05-28-2007, 05:12 AM

Barbara 4242 said:
"In response to your inquiry, the "hormone bath" is not a theory -- it actually happens. That being the case, it is not a far reach to believe that, given human biology/physiology, there could be "malfunctions," and that these, in turn, could effect one's developing brain, and thus effect gender identity -- from transsexualism on one end of the spectrum, to mtf heterosexual CDing on the other end."

It is true that the hormone bath is not a theory but a fact, however, the remainder of that statement is, as yet, an unsubstantiated hypothesis.

I thought I made it very clear that this is theory -- that since we know there is a hormone bath, that it wasn't a far reach to believe that, given how the body has malfunctions, it is entirely possible that a malfunction during the hormone bath "could effect one's developing brain." I didn't state this potential effect on the developing brain was fact, but rather a plausible hypothesis. I happen to personally believe it is more than likely, but I never stated it as anything but reasonably hypothetical.

Kelsy

05-28-2007, 05:53 AM

I think it was something they put in the water:happy: Nature - hormonal bath , female tendencies - then Nurture - something in ones up bringing that kicks it off.:2c:

Jennifer

Raychel

05-28-2007, 06:49 AM

Scientific theories are just that. Take a thousand people who call themselves scientist and you will get a thousand differant answers. And no doubt they will get paid alot of money for there answers, so why wouldn't they want to sell there theories. Now take those same thousand people and put a pair of panties on them. Then they will really know the answer. Mens clothes suck and womens clothes feel GREAT.

Now you can send the check to

Scientist Raychel
1234 Dresser Way
Girdleville Ma, 01505

Annesah

05-28-2007, 07:13 AM

I have always suscribed to the wash theory. I do believe that there is a personality component as well. I was at a lawn party Saturday and Sunday.
When the party occasionally split up into gender groups guess what? I am just so much more comfortable with the women. I can go on auto pilot with them. It's just a click-zing! It's been this way sense I was five.

Charleen

05-28-2007, 07:33 AM

I yam what I yam! Why? He's pitching! (A&C)

Peggy55

05-28-2007, 07:50 AM

Here's some more food for thought.......

http://www.jenellerose.com/htmlpostings/darkside/Temperament.htm

CaptLex

05-28-2007, 11:49 AM

Theories, schmeories!!! I hope no one ever figures it out. I don't want to be "cured", I like it like it is.
You took the words out of my mouth, Andi. Once they find the cause, they'll start working on the "cure". None for me, thanks, I'm driving. I'm sure there's a sound medical and/or scientific reason why I'm "different", but I don't want to know what it is. I just want people to leave me alone and allow me to be.

Now take those same thousand people and put a pair of panties on them. Then they will really know the answer. Mens clothes suck and womens clothes feel GREAT.
Well . . . maybe 999 "people" will come to that conclusion, but the one FtM in that thousand will have a whole different opinion. :p

Dixie Darling

05-28-2007, 12:10 PM

I appreciate the fact that Ashleigh found interest in the page on my web site about theories concerning the cause(s) of someone being a crossdresser. This thread seems to have generated some disagreements among those who have been following it and have seen the page on my web site. This is actually a healthy discussion since it has prompted input from those who are following it.

I would like to make one thing very clear concerning the page, and it’s something that is stated at the beginning of the explanation of the two theories discussed. That statement is:

“Most of these are just what the name implies – THEORIES – with little or no scientific or medical information to back them up.”

We LIVE with theories every day. As an example, we are all familiar with electricity and what it is capable of doing. At the same time, no one has never been successful in DEFINING what electricity is. The basic theory (there’s that word again) is that it’s a movement of electrons from one point to another. This ‘theory’ has been in place since electricity was discovered and rules governing it’s behavior have been established and used with success to harness it for our use. So even though we haven’t been able to explain exactly what it is with any degree of success, we HAVE put it to use for our convenience and benefit by utilizing the theories that have been developed concerning it.

With all that being said, the two theories discussed are the ones that I have found to be the most believable over the years I have been researching crossdressing. It doesn’t mean that I subscribe wholeheartedly to them – just that they seem to be the most convincing of all the ones I’ve come across.

Dixie -- http://www.geocities.com/senorita_cd

Sheri 4242

05-28-2007, 02:42 PM

MarinaTwelve200

05-28-2007, 05:49 PM

Those theories only address Crossdressing resulting from an identification with the opposite sex---That is degress of "transsexualisim"

As Crossdressing has several DIFFERENT root causes---that may induce a person to dress as the opposite sex, no one or two theories can cover all cases. Not only do people crossdress because they identify with the opposite sex, some CD for sexual fetish reasons, to escape their normal identity, or to simply trigger a "thrill" reaction, to name a few.

The main difficulties with understanding CD are are two fold, first of all Actually dressing is NOT the "disease" or issue. CD ing is a SYMPTOM of something else going on in the psyche. And secondly, we may not be personally aware of ALL the different things that may going on that induce one to CDing. If one thinks only homosexuals and transsexuals CD, for example, and you KNOW that you are not either of them, being unaware of other root causes can be very confusing indeed.---One needs to study and consider ALL the possible roots, and sometimes this is not enough.

trannie T

05-29-2007, 01:07 AM

Both theories are interesting however there is little to validate either one. Sadly there is a lack of research in any topic related to human sexuality.

As best as I can determine I am a crossdresser because I wear womens clothing. I wear womens clothing because I'm a crossdresser.

Sheri 4242

05-29-2007, 03:59 AM

Both theories are interesting however there is little to validate either one.

There IS a hormone wash (or bath) near the end of the first trimester -- that is scientific fact!!! That this prenatal wash might, at times, short circuit is biologically (or medically, if you prefer) likely. The effects of such short circuiting (with regard to CDing) is pure speculation at this point in time, and, in fact, may remain so!

Those theories only address Crossdressing resulting from an identification with the opposite sex---That is degress of "transsexualisim"

As Crossdressing has several DIFFERENT root causes---that may induce a person to dress as the opposite sex, no one or two theories can cover all cases. ((( ETC. - Please read Marina's entire post, above. )))

Sorry, Marina, but we'll have to agree to disagree -- hopefully without being disagreeable. Your first sentence labeled a vast majority of mtf heterosexual CDers as being, to some degree, transsexual. The hormone bath/wash does not solely apply to transsexualism at all. It applies to both core gender identity and gender role identity, which are absolutely different. I think you'll agree that we could literally write volumes on this subject and still not reach a satisfactory conclusion.

From things you have posted, I get the sense that you don't accept that someone can be anatomically male AND male in core gender identity, yet have a subjective dichotomy that presents a feminine aspect of their root psyche as it relates to gender role identity. A clear distinction must, therefore, be made between core gender identity and gender role indentity, just as we must distinguish between the subjective and the objective, and that whch is congruus from the incongruous.

A prenatal hormonal milieu DOES occur and determines, to some degree, gender identity. What is unknown is the formation of an unconflicted gender identity and gender role. There is ambiguity within the controlled scientific data . . . for example, most children with gender identity conflicts do not develop into transsexual adults.

Something that I haven't seen noted here is that diagnosis requires the presence of BOTH cross-gender identification (the desire to be, or the insistence that one is, the other sex) AND a concurrent demonstrated, substantial sense of discomfort about one's sex or gender role. This is where the various disciplines come into conflict -- for example, read the DSM-IV-TR, versus the latest edition of The Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy. There is some agreement, yet we are still dealing with the differences between medical professionals and mental health professionals, the latter including some medical professionals.

In the main, usually, those who have a greater imbalance in core gender identity tend to be crossdressers; those who have a greater imbalance in gender role identity tend to be transsexual. Same spectrum, albeit completely different ends of that spectrum.

Kate Simmons

05-29-2007, 04:31 AM

All good thoughts and theories. One thing tends to "stick in my crawl" however. That is the idea that we are "victims" of some physical, psychological or physiological condition and there is very little we can do about it and it leads us around and controls us. Once we accept who we are and realize we are able to take ownership of ourselves and our own actions, we realize that we are indeed a real person with real needs and desires. We control who we are and are much happier for it and become an individual who can make a real contribution to life.:happy:

Robin Leigh

05-29-2007, 06:17 AM

I'm rather fond of the Hormonal Wash theory, and I expect that there's a genetic component, too. However, just because we got a different hormone mix than usual, doesn't mean that we are flawed or faulty in any way. Just different.

It's pointless to debate nature vs nurture, IMHO. Certainly, nurture influence how & when one's gender diversity will manifest, but you can't make a girl out of a boy. The sad case of David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) shows us that. And remember, the major proponent of the theory that gender identity is learned was Dr John Money, David Reimer's specialist. And David was the main evidence he used to "prove" how correct his theory was.

Occasionally, people start threads here claiming that they are a crossdresser because of their upbringing. But the curious thing is that these four possible reasons for becoming a CDer are given by various people: excessive female influence, insufficient female influence, excessive male influence, or insufficient male influence. This indicates to me that none of these are actually causative of CDing, although they may influence a CDers actions, thoughts & feelings.

:hugs:

Robin

JenniferR771

05-29-2007, 07:09 AM

I am skeptical of the idea of a genetic influence. There are many identical twin boys born--identical genetics--and only one of the pair becomes a crossdresser. Same problem in studies of gay men and their twins--although (if I recall the discussion) there is a slight tendency for gay men to have gay twin brothers. And there is a second problem with the theory. Gay men seldom have children--there is a slim chance the gene would be passed on.

If it is genetic then shouldn't crossdressers have more crossdressing children?

Likewise the "hormone wash theory" has the same problem. When twins are born--fraternal or identical--then they must have been exposed to the same womb and same mother's hormones. Yet you seldom find two crossdressers resulting from such births. Or two gay boys. Remember the developing baby does not share his blood supply with the mother. The blood cannot cross over to the baby. Crossover of blood would be fatal if the mother and baby had different blood types. Rh factor disease results from a partial mixing of Rh negative mother and Rh positive bably.

Baffled--still waiting for a really sound theory.

battybattybats

05-29-2007, 09:02 AM

I recently saw a report on 'epigenetics' (spelling?) where genes can be turned on or off by things like diet or other external factors and then the switched dna can then be passed to the next generation. I wonder if this could have something to do with our nature?

Also lets remember that in science the term 'theory' has a different meaning to the general use of the word. In any case, for those scared of being 'cured' perhaps sociology is the field you could support, I'm sure it could be influential in raising acceptance.

Mary L

05-29-2007, 09:11 AM

Like most of you, I am interested in the causes of crossdressing. But, as far as I can see, no theory espoused to date comes close to covering the wide variety of CDing. I know all about the "hormone wash" idea. It has merit to the extent that it has been thoroughly substantiated as a determinant of certain aspects of male/female sexual activity. What is striking about CDers is the apparent absence of any female traits that would also exist were the hormone wash causal to our behavior.

More important (to me, at least), is the question of how, during development (whether washed or unwashed), I personally came to love the texture of sheer, smooth nylon such as one finds in slips and panties. Now that just boggles my mind! Evolution could not act to promote love of nylon given that the material was not invented until the 1900's. I don't think I would be a CDer without the invention of nylon. Panties, per se, are no more interesting to me than are men's cotton underwear. But, given the opportunity to put on panties, skirt with a nylon slip, nylon bra---well, you have my attention.

So, one question for the rest of you is whether you were drawn in to CDing because of the fabric from which the clothes were made? Or, do you/did you not care about the fabric, but only the female style of clothing?
Regards,
Mary

battybattybats

05-29-2007, 09:40 AM

But evolution could have given us a love of silk.. or sensuous textures.. or just feeling/acting feminine. Also in evolution many things are a trade off... evidence suggests that the genes that can cause schizophrenia are linked to extra creativity.. you get a family that is extra creative but risk members of that family having schiophrenia. I have heard that a genetic illness is caused by a gene that causes resistence to maleria.

So perhaps crossdressing is a side effect of a genetic trait that gives some other advantage.

Eva Diva

05-29-2007, 10:12 AM

Occasionally, people start threads here claiming that they are a crossdresser because of their upbringing. But the curious thing is that these four possible reasons for becoming a CDer are given by various people: excessive female influence, insufficient female influence, excessive male influence, or insufficient male influence. This indicates to me that none of these are actually causative of CDing, although they may influence a CDers actions, thoughts & feelings.

Actually, the most common description I've seen of "first time dressing" is "my older sister dressed me up", or something similar. Some of those posters state that they were secretly happy to take part. In those cases, we are left with no help in understanding the originof their crossdressing. In the other cases, however, it is possible that they are describing an experience that caused them to develop the inclination to crossdress. Under that theory, the experience of dressing up as a girl would somehow "imprint" them with some kind of cross-gender identification that would need to be satisfied again and again later in life.
Whether that theory is correct is another matter. :D

Eva Diva

05-29-2007, 10:16 AM

I'm at a loss as to why we need a theory at all.

A theory implies that transgenderism in any form is unnatural.

That statement couldn't be further from the truth. Science is the study of the natural world. All scientific theories are developed to explain natural phenomena.

I know there's a point to be made here, but you're going about it in the wrong way.

Eva Diva

05-29-2007, 10:41 AM

I am skeptical of the idea of a genetic influence. There are many identical twin boys born--identical genetics--and only one of the pair becomes a crossdresser.

There are twin studies done looking at crossdressing? Could you share with us?

Same problem in studies of gay men and their twins--although (if I recall the discussion) there is a slight tendency for gay men to have gay twin brothers.

In fact, there is a relatively strong tendency for gay identical twin men to have gay twin brothers. The genetic correlation doesn't have to be 100% to be considered very important to geneticist.

And there is a second problem with the theory. Gay men seldom have children--there is a slim chance the gene would be passed on.

Actually, many gay men have had children. Gay dads are quite common, though perhaps less so now that so many gay men are "out" at an early age. As far as I know, there have been no studies of them, but it would be interesting to see one.

If it is genetic then shouldn't crossdressers have more crossdressing children?

Yup! But the studies have not been done. Since crossdressing is still such a closeted thing, it's not likely to happen any time soon either.

Likewise the "hormone wash theory" has the same problem. When twins are born--fraternal or identical--then they must have been exposed to the same womb and same mother's hormones. Yet you seldom find two crossdressers resulting from such births.

Again, I don't know where you're getting you information.

Or two gay boys.

The Bailey and Pillar study showed an elevated level of gay siblings in both identical and fraternal twins. In both cases, the genetics and intra-uterine environment are confounded, so we can't sort out the effects. You would need to do an experiment separating the embryos at fertilization and putting them in different women's wombs to sort the two factors out. Not likely to happen any time soon. :D

Remember the developing baby does not share his blood supply with the mother. The blood cannot cross over to the baby. Crossover of blood would be fatal if the mother and baby had different blood types. Rh factor disease results from a partial mixing of Rh negative mother and Rh positive babyl

The two fetuses can interact with each other within the uterus. Cells can be passed from one to the other, causing responses that would not be there otherwise. It's just another confounding effect to deal with.

Baffled--still waiting for a really sound theory.

Me too! :D

Robin Leigh

05-29-2007, 10:57 AM

There is evidence that fraternal twins affect each others' hormones. They certainly do in other mammals, like cows & mice. (I have a great PDF of a Scientific American article discussing this topic, but unfortunately it's no longer freely available.)

As to why we don't have other feminine characteristics, well some of us do. (Not me, though). I expect that the embryo is sensitive to the mother's hormones at various times, and this affects development of various systems. So we can get variations in the hormones affecting how our brains connections grow, and variations in the hormone systems themselves, as well as variations in the primary & secondary sexual organs.

Robin

RobertaFermina

05-29-2007, 11:10 AM

I crossdress because the benefits outweigh the costs according to my heart and mind. Anyone else might be of the opinion that I am trashing my life, or even getting greater value than even I think I am getting.

:D Cost/Benefit explains it.

That is, until even I think I am getting negative value from it.:eek:Then I will look for or found CD Anonymous.

Just for today..... where is that pink mist aerosol can? :devil:

:rose: Roberta :rose:

Faye Lynn

05-29-2007, 11:21 AM

As for the theories I'm not sure. However, I do know in my case I was interested in feminine things from as far back as I can remember. As a young boy (5 or 6) I enjoyed dressing. The desire has only grown over the years.

For me dressing makes me feel complete.

Love to all...Faye Lynn

Billie Jean

05-29-2007, 01:34 PM

Marcie Sexton

05-29-2007, 01:43 PM

Who was it that ask the question, "Why as why" ?...

I really don't care how or why I am like I am, call me one that believes in predestination of sorts...I'm like I am because it was meant to be...Just like I was meant to be born in November, 1954 and have a particular year, month, day, hour, minute, and second I will pass from this world...

All we really need to worry about is we gave life our all, we are happy, true, and honest with ourselves and love ones...

trannie T

05-29-2007, 03:46 PM

It is amazing how little hard information there is on causes of human behavior, especially anything relating to human sexuality. The two therories presented in this thread give a physical explanation for crossdressing. I am sure there are many therories on a behavioral basis for crossdressing.
The therories are interesting but I'd really like to see some genuine scientific research.

Karren H

05-29-2007, 03:58 PM

I think that all crossdresser's mothers were abducted by aliens and impregnated with a mixe of human and alien DNA which caused the genders to blure... Don't you read the National inquirer?? Lol

That's as plausable a theory as anyone elses becaues for one none of them can be proven or recreated...

And who cares why!! Wouldn't change a thing if you did know? You'd still crossdress... So all the theorizing and postulating is not woth the time expended one it since it wouldn't make a difference in any one of our lives going forward...

Rather spend my time getting pretty than fretting about why I want to get pretty.. Lol

Love Karren

Ruth

05-29-2007, 04:37 PM

Ashleigh, when I'm not in a dress, I'm a scientist, and I know a theory when I see one. I didn't see any in that link you posted. There's some techno jargon but no coherent mechanism proposed.
I'm not claiming to understand CDing, but that page doesn't help anyone.
I would suggest that we can all find out a lot about why we personally crossdress through therapy, if we want to know, but it's not going to be some glib, general, 200-word explanation. And as Karren has so wisely pointed out, we're gonna do it anyway so do we really need to know why?

MarinaTwelve200

05-29-2007, 06:55 PM

Sorry, Marina, but we'll have to agree to disagree -- hopefully without being disagreeable. Your first sentence labeled a vast majority of mtf heterosexual CDers as being, to some degree, transsexual. The hormone bath/wash does not solely apply to transsexualism at all. It applies to both core gender identity and gender role identity, which are absolutely different. I think you'll agree that we could literally write volumes on this subject and still not reach a satisfactory conclusion.

From things you have posted, I get the sense that you don't accept that someone can be anatomically male AND male in core gender identity, yet have a subjective dichotomy that presents a feminine aspect of their root psyche as it relates to gender role identity. A clear distinction must, therefore, be made between core gender identity and gender role indentity, just as we must distinguish between the subjective and the objective, and that whch is congruus from the incongruous.

A prenatal hormonal milieu DOES occur and determines, to some degree, gender identity. What is unknown is the formation of an unconflicted gender identity and gender role. There is ambiguity within the controlled scientific data . . . for example, most children with gender identity conflicts do not develop into transsexual adults.

.

No problem with agreeing to disagree.
No, I dont think that the vast majority of mtf hetro CDers are Transexual (to a degree)---I stated that those TWO theories in question only applied to CDing that had a TS element while not addressing other possible root causes.

I think the "hormone wash" leads to a CONGENITAL degree of TS that can cause a range of full blown TS or to milder cases---leaving sexuality intact while affecting only the gender idenity. Those such affected may be prone to urges to CD. But like I said above, this is only ONE of several different conditions, congenital or not, that may lead to CDing.

Obviously, things are not as simple as they seem---as you point out There are several different M/F idenity elements, which if "togled" the 'wrong" way can lead to various identity "problems" some of which seem contradictory. This is why I look at what you have to say seriously. I am STILL working on identifying these elements. So far I have recognized, the SEXUALITY element (hetro vs Homo), The GENDER element(Male vs Female---perhaps this may be related to gender ROLE too)
There are also other identity elements---the PERSONAL element (the "Me") and the HUMAN vs ANIMAL element and the ANIMATE vs INANIMATE.

I beleive that prenatal hormones "SET" the identity elements to a "default" and can result in both biological inapproprate settings or also an odd admixture---Hetro Male with gender a female identity for example---as opposed to the true TS with a "Homosexual" sexuality with a Female gender identity.----Of course these two types are prone to CD---but these arent the ONLY causes of CD.(my MAIN point)

I do not think that there is any DIRECT genetic cause for TS related CDing or even transsexuality itself--provided the single XY cromosones are present, but rather an inhereted predispotition, on the part of the MOTHER to cycle hormones incorrectly when pregnant.

JenniferR771

05-29-2007, 09:54 PM

Excuse me Eva,

I don't actually have " information" . My ideas are formed partly from overheard conversations at Tri-Ess meetings. And snatches of readings on other sites.

Check this out for studies on the genetics of gay men. Milton Dimond has written papers in this area.
http://members.aol.com/gaygene/pages/biblio.htm

Actually i was hopeing someone on this site could come up with a number or a scientific study with data showing the chance of a twin crossdresser having a crossdressing twin brother.

Anybody here who has an identical twin brother--what do you think? Fraternal twin brother? Plain ordinary brother? Crossdressing sister?

And how do i tell if my brothers crossdress? I would need a polygraph (lie detector machine).

If a crossdressing man marries a crossdressing woman--what are the gender leanings of the children?

bgirl

05-29-2007, 10:06 PM

All the explanations dont change the reality one bit.

Rita B

05-29-2007, 10:37 PM

I just think that I look better as a woman than I do as a man. Anybody else feel that way.

Satrana

05-30-2007, 03:34 AM

Ashleigh, when I'm not in a dress, I'm a scientist, and I know a theory when I see one. I didn't see any in that link you posted. There's some techno jargon but no coherent mechanism proposed.

I agree. The logic train appears to be : because we know hormones have something to do with gender and we know there is a hormone wash then OBVIOUSLY the two must join together to form crossdressers. Afterall, if it feels right, it must be a great theory......not. Here is a fact: there is not one iota of evidence that the hormone wash has anything to do with crossdressing. Karen's alien DNA theory has the same level of validity as this theory or any other of the dozen or so that I have come across.

These ideas are really just "feel good" stab in the dark ideas which when repeated often enough take on a resemblence that there is substantive evidence behind it when in fact there is none. It may give people comfort to believe that they were born to crossdress so it is not their fault. But at this moment in time this is just a belief, not a theory.

Ekatcha

05-30-2007, 04:02 AM

I'm at a loss as to why we need a theory at all.

A theory implies that transgenderism in any form is unnatural.

After all, and unless I'm greatly mistaken, we all, each and everyone of us, without exception, are the product of a male and female set of parents.

Which means we are all part male and part female whether we like it or not.

Just because a lot of politicians, sociologists, scientists, and theologians work hard to pretend that transgenderisn is abnormal, and force society to accept their flawed views, its just not true.

Transgenderism is a natural part of nature and does need any theories to explain nor does it need fixing.

I totally disagree. I think a theory implies an attempt at understanding by the science community. Think about it, at one point in time Johannes Kepler had a theory that the planets moved not in circular orbits but in elliptical orbits. Today, this is accepted fact, but back in the day it was wild stuff!

From a scientific point of view, trying to understand TG/CD/Etc is going to take a theory... and the proving or disproving of said theory. At some point they'll have a reason, and in that reason will not be an abnormality... That's the wrong tact to take in my mind. It'll will be an explanation, in much the same way as the orbit of the planets once was.

Do I want to be some sideshow freak, some science experiment? Hell no! Do I think a theory can help our cause? Maybe. Remains to be seen really, but I'd like to give the those that care a chance. Now the rest of them, that want to place me into some moral category... they can go f' themselves. Science, Im interested in what they have to say. Outside of that, its not necessarily their business now is it?

Sheri 4242

05-30-2007, 05:17 AM

Salandra:

I don't think examining theories suggests we are victims. In fact, as I totally agree with you about our acceptance of ourselves and our taking ownership of our actions, this means that by studying theories (to those of us who like to do so) we are doing exactly what you so wisely suggest!

And who said "dressing makes me feel complete." Wow, do I agree with that!!!

It is amazing how little hard information there is on causes of human behavior, especially anything relating to human sexuality. The two therories presented in this thread give a physical explanation for crossdressing. I am sure there are many therories on a behavioral basis for crossdressing. The therories are interesting but I'd really like to see some genuine scientific research.

The theories presented give medical explanations (based on the mind, its chemistry, and even the size of certain cell clusters within GG brains v. GM brains, as well as suggesting the role of things like the adrenal gland, endocrine system, and cortisol plasma levels. Some of these things occur -- that is factual, not theory -- what is theory is the potential causation effects regarding CDing.

As far as hard information, in re human behavior, sexuality, etc., I can refer you to any one of a number of recent textbooks that will, in turn, give you lengthy research cites. And, I will provide them if you want, but dang -- if you do all that reading, we won't see you on here for months -- LOL!!!

No problem with agreeing to disagree . . .

I think the "hormone wash" leads to a CONGENITAL degree of TS that can cause a range of full blown TS or to milder cases---leaving sexuality intact while affecting only the gender idenity . . .

Obviously, things are not as simple as they seem . . .

I beleive that prenatal hormones "SET" the identity elements to a "default" and can result in both biological inapproprate settings or also an odd admixture---Hetro Male with gender a female identity for example---as opposed to the true TS with a "Homosexual" sexuality with a Female gender identity.----Of course these two types are prone to CD---but these arent the ONLY causes of CD.(my MAIN point)

Marina, Please excuse me for being short and only referencing part of what you wrote. To the forum: Marina's post is worth reading!!!

As I am rather frazzeled (another night of burning the candle at both ends), and while I think I have contributions to be made to this discusssion, I do want to say (before retiring for 2-3 hours of sleep) that your post which I am referencing is well-written and thought-provoking!!! Keep up the excellent research and analysis!!! What you wrote was an excellent read!!! I hope you will concur that we will agree on some things, disagree on others, and be baffled by still others -- BUT we will keep the debate critically significant!!!

Barbara

Robin Leigh

05-30-2007, 07:12 AM

As I said in the Crossdressing is a transgender activity (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58904) thread:

I'd love to see a good theory of gender. But I suspect we'll need a good theory of consciousness first. :)

The current theories are still speculative, but I think that it's important that all kinds of TG people discuss them. I'm not trying to force those who aren't interested in gender theory to participate, but this process needs our informed input, if the eventual theories are going to be acceptable to TG people.

Here's a link to that article on Animal Sexuality (http://www.sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?fa=Products.ViewIssuePreview&ARTICLEID_CHAR=CC4E7675-5314-45AE-A1CB-180C480C09B) I mentioned earlier. From the link:

One of the most fundamental characteristics of life is sexuality, the division into male and female. Sexual considerations influence the appearance, form, behavior and chemical makeup of nearly all multicellular organisms. Amazingly enough, scientists cannot conclusively say why sex exists. In recent years, however, animal studies have provided a great deal of information about the multifaceted components of sexuality. These studies reveal that many familiar aspects are less universal than once supposed. The work provides a new framework for understanding the relationship between males and females and a glimpse at how sex evolved.

Among vertebrate animals, sexuality is expressed in a number of ways. Males and females exhibit a wide variety of chemical, anatomic and behavioral disparities. The most obvious of the behavioral divergences lies in an animal's copulatory activity. In general, individuals having testes attempt insemination (male-typical behavior), whereas individuals having ovaries are receptive to being inseminated (female-typical behavior). Males and females often differ in other, less overt ways, such as level of activity, regulation of body weight, level of aggression and learning patterns. Some gender-specific actions are associated with, but not necessarily caused by, systematic dissimilarities in certain parts of the brain.

This article mentions many types of TG behaviour in the animal kingdom, like fish that change sex as part of their normal lifecycle. One of my favourites is a species of snake. Some of the males in this species emit female pheromones. This entices other males to form a "mating ball" around them. The TG male then slithers out of the ball to mate with the real female. :)

Robin

Dixie Darling

05-30-2007, 10:39 PM

Ruth,

You stated:

"Ashleigh, when I'm not in a dress, I'm a scientist, and I know a theory when I see one. I didn't see any in that link you posted. There's some techno jargon but no coherent mechanism proposed."

Just to clarify the usage of the word "theory" as it is used in the pages of my web site. . . . . . .

Below is the definition as it appears in Wikopedia. Regardless as to what might be the actual causes (if they are ever determined) it appears that most of us are CDs either by nurture, nature, or a combination of the two. And though theories as to the root causes are abundant, when it comes to something that might be nature oriented, the hormone wash theory would seem to be the most accurate and believable when utilizing the word 'theory' in the COMMON usage format.

1. In COMMON USAGE, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements that would be true independently of what people think about them.

2. In SCIENCE, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the general theory of relativity.

I will agree with you concerning YOUR use of the word "THEORY" in a SCIENTIFIC mode. However, per the definition has different meanings dependent on how it is used (see the Wikapedia on line encyclopedia). Wikapedia defines the word 'theory' precisely as we have seen it referred to here on the forum in attempting to offer SPECULATION as to what might be a cause of one being a crossdresser. Although the hormone wash theory has actually been proven in the scientific realm (i.e. - there is proof that it actually does occur), whether or not it has any relation to being one of the contributing factors to a person being a crossdresser is a secondary theory of the common usage variety.

Dixie -- http://www.geocities.com/senorita_cd

Hali

05-31-2007, 05:21 PM

Hi gurls, well I think WE CDs are made deliberately by the SYSTEM(GOD), this is in line with MY THEORY that the whole WORLD is created DELIBERATELY in the way we see it, so CDs are just part of the SYSTEM as another form of CONTROL, that is CDs are also meant to ADD COLOR to LIFE(to make life less and less boring) so i think CDing is part of HUMAN QUEST to continue to INTRIGUE MAN in finding out HIS true purpose on earth which to me is "JUST TO EXIST" and do what HE can do before HE dies, its just that simple.

battybattybats

05-31-2007, 07:22 PM

While I respect your beliefs, it isn't much off an explanation to those who do not share your religion.

I think it's natural to ask 'why' and I don't see there is any harm in the asking so long as one is aware that many answers are still unknown to those questions. I suppose it's the why of asking why that matters, an attempt at greater understanding, a desperate need for validating information, a 'proof' to show to others or a search for what is 'wrong'.

Stephenie S

05-31-2007, 08:51 PM

Well, I for one do not need to ask why.

I just plain don't have the time to waste on wondering. I have a life to live and it's already too full. I plan on enjoying as much of life as I can and b****r the questions. I wasted hours and hours when I was young on the meaning of life when I could have been living it. No time, no time.

Stephenie

lowlavalentine

06-01-2007, 12:34 AM

I'm kind of fond of that St...st....stu...st...st..stuttering gene theory.

Ashleigh

06-01-2007, 12:16 PM

Ashleigh, when I'm not in a dress, I'm a scientist, and I know a theory when I see one. And as Karren has so wisely pointed out, we're gonna do it anyway so do we really need to know why?

Let me put it this way. Some of us want to know and some don't. I understand that. I was, in an earlier life, a meteorologist specializing in severe storms and atmospheric optics. Believe me, in those fields, theories run amok. I guess I am like many who like to know as much as possible about as many things as possible. It's just my nature. For example, When I owned my Cessna Turbo Centurion, it wasn't necessary for me to be an A&P (airframe and power plant mechanic) and totally understand the inner workings of the electronics systems and landing gear system, etc. to fly it. However, when certain things occur, and if one flies enough they will, this extra knowledge can make a bad situation good.

I realize this example is not a crossdressing example, but there are some situations in life that we know can happen and there are those we don't have a clue as to what can happen or when. The more we are educated in CDing (and yes, we are going to do it anyway) and everything else we can be, and the more calm we are in explaining ourselves, the better many situations will be.

I am not trying to down play anyone here for their position of "I'm going to do it anyway so why learn about the reasons why?" That is in no way my intent. If that is their premise, fine with me - no problem. I just know that if there were 5 of anyone on this forum flying in my airplane with me (which I sold awhile ago :() they would all want me to know every wire, every system, every nut and bolt of that aircraft as well as the weather, the other traffic around me, the airport and approach information, alternate airports, and so on.................... instead of just only what I needed to know to get from here to there when things are going and functioning well.

Just my little :2c: worth as to where I was coming from. We are all different from many different backgrounds. That's what makes it so grand.

You are all super and I am glad to be here with all of you.

Anyway, I think all of us should go out and get a new pair of shoes today. :D

A :doll:

battybattybats

06-01-2007, 05:20 PM

Very good point. If I'd known as much about crossdressing four and a half years ago as I do today I would never have made the mistake of thinking that my desires would stay away within a relationship and when I told my (prospective then) girlfriend that I had dressed in the past I wouldn't have used the words 'may return' but instead 'almost definatly will return' and that may have changed a lot of things.

Sylviaqwerty

06-05-2007, 05:22 PM

Reason fro dressing up.
I enjoy it.

OldMom

06-05-2007, 07:25 PM

This is all so interesting. I am currently trying to understand it and I am still pursuing acceptance. I have a slightly different situation. When I conceived I had to use high technology including a procedure called "ICSI" whereby they inject the sperm into the egg and then put the embryo into the uterus. Anyway, studies have shown that this procedure does in fact carry with it a higher than average result of gender identification problems. For a long time I "blamed" myself for my son's issues because of these methods. It's only now occuring to me that I could possible "thank" these methods for giving me such an amazing gift. I have been so worried about the pain he might experience because of our society and lack of tolerance that I think I'm missing out on the good stuff. You are helping me to see that and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. OldMom

pwincessbigbootyooty

06-05-2007, 07:38 PM

theres no truly nonbias theories let alone conclusive studies on anything
in the brain wiring dept

let alone this
they should just let it be

Satrana

06-06-2007, 02:14 AM

I have been so worried about the pain he might experience because of our society and lack of tolerance that I think I'm missing out on the good stuff. You are helping me to see that and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. OldMom

Glad that you have seen the light. The whole crossdressing issue is driven by fear. If you can get past that, you begin to wonder what all the fuss is about.
Crossdressing is not wrong, evil, perverted or unethical, it is simply a different state of being from the accepted social norms that exist at this moment in time. Ultimately it is no different from being born left handed in a world dominated by right handers. A few minor adjustments will allow you to live a happy and complete life. It is your choice to see the cup either half empty or half full.

Chantelle CD

06-06-2007, 02:47 AM

Has it been scientifically proven, that CD TS TG or homosexual behavior is linked our gene make up or hormone levels? that they can actually effect our emotions and feelings, I'm not sure of this, maybe hormone levels can make one feel more femme, but thinking that there more to do with the body, and how it functions and grows.

I think that maybe because they can not prove where it comes from, maybe just maybe it does come from the place that requires faith to witness. I believe, that before we are born, we choose our parents, maybe even before our parents were born, that we have chosen our life lessons to go threw as well, our future mates, <reason they are called "soul mates" and why there is a belief called love at first sight> even our work careers. This also explains dajavoo, when you experience you have done this before, and hadn't. Wouldn't that just rip it!!!! there are no answers to why we x-dress, without faith, like is there a god!!! DAMN EH !!!

Wouldn't that make the biggest life lesson, accepting self for being a cross dresser, if u can do that completely, thats some big lesson learned, and WHOOOA some might big soul evolution going on

Annemarie

06-06-2007, 07:33 AM

I personally go for the absent father theory,
already 2 threads, here's one :
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1009&highlight=father

OldMom

06-06-2007, 07:58 AM

I am the primary care taker for my son. I am divorced and my current husband is emotionally distant a lot of time time. Thinking back, Danster's dressing began before I married though, right around the time of the divorce but that could also be coincidence. Gosh that's a hard one. I hope this theory is disproven. I don't like it. Feels like somehow I have more control than I really think I do. Mom

Annemarie

06-06-2007, 10:04 AM

Here's the second thread on the same theme :
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42991&highlight=father

Brenda_fish

06-06-2007, 03:30 PM

jete2_ballet

06-07-2007, 04:49 AM

What about this.!!!
There are 5 girls and 2 boys in my family.
The 3 first born were female then myself then my brother then 2 more girls.
Strangely but instinctively I often have thought my parents were struggling to have males then I came along (not quite fully male).
I, without wanting to sound full of ego, have a soft beautiful face that I am told belies its age by about 14 years. I haven't as yet made a full attempt at impersonating a female but feel I would be very convincing.

People seem to be very confused with me as to my sexuality and I dont 'let on'.

Some have said I am slightly androgenous(not sure about that).

The point to this is instinctively I have felt although born a boy there was hormonal influences that produced feminine traits.

Whatever hormone makes a male new born manly was lacking in my instance.
This is what I 'feeeeeel' is right for me.

xxxxxxxxx's

Robin Leigh

06-07-2007, 06:30 AM

I lost my father when I was very young, too young to really remember him. My mother remarried within a few years, but my step-father often worked night shift. So I fit into the "absent father" category. And I had 3 sisters & no brothers, so I was often surrounded by females at home.

However, I don't believe that these things caused my TG tendencies. I believe that it's a combination of genes & the hormone interaction in the womb that creates the TG potential. The environment I grew up in certainly provided influences that shaped my gender identity, triggered my TG development and affected the form of my TG feelings & activities. But environmental influences cannot affect the core gender identity.

The main evidence for this view comes from the intersex community. For several decades, intersex births in the Western world were treated as a medical emergency, as if the baby had a life-threatening condition. Specialists would be rushed in, and often babies were subjected to immediate genital alteration. :( They could be put on a course of hormones for life, and possibly subjected to further surgical procedures. They would rarely be told that they were born intersex.

The most modern approach to intersex births is to wait & see, using surgery &/or hormones when and as necessary to help the individual develop in the direction they want to go. Unfortunately, in many places the old attitudes & methods still prevail.

Sometimes, a little surgery is all that's required to make ambiguous genitalia less ambiguous. But since a functional penis is a lot harder to construct than a vagina, in many cases these babies are made into girls. Sometimes this works, but there have been many cases where it has been a dismal failure. Even with hormonal assistance, you can't force a person into a gender which doesn't match their core gender identity.

There have also been cases of non-intersex & non-TG boys being turned into girls after bad penis accidents. The most famous case is Brenda/David Reimer, who I gave links about earlier in this thread. His parents tried their best to treat Brenda like a girl, but it never really worked. At his core he was always a boy. Even though he had no memory of having a boy's body, he never felt comfortable as a girl, and clearly had gender identification issues throughout childhood.

So environment can't make someone TG who wasn't born with the potential, or vice versa, but it will certainly affect how a TG person feels about gender. If we grow up in a supportive environment, then surely we will come to accept ourselves a lot faster than if we grow up in fear, shame & guilt.

:hugs:

Robin

Chantelle CD

06-07-2007, 01:45 PM

For me, knowing WHY won't make a big difference in my dressing but I am very curious nonetheless.

Scientifically, there is a lot we do know about gender issues and there are things we do not know. It is well known that many characteristics related to sex arise in response to spikes of hormone levels during particular windows of time during development. Relative levels of feminization or masculinization can result from genes (that encode hormone synthesizing enzymes and hormone receptors), or simply developmental accidents. It is reasonable to hypothesize that issues of sexual orientation, or even the tendency to CD, may also be affected by such factors. Enviromental (i.e. social) factors probably also play a role. Right now there is not a lot of compelling evidence to to explain these particular attributes one way or another.

However, we should not assume that science CANNOT explain these things, rather that the explanation is not YET known. It may never be known, but I don't think that justifies abandoning science altogether. I'll continue to be curious.

That's just me,
Love,
Brenda

Why does one have a desire for a hobbie, and become very good at it, and yet others no matter how hard they try, can not come close to having there talent. What makes a singer voice so beautiful, yet i can not carry a tune, even if i tried and took lesions, we are born with gifts, and talents, cross dressing is such a talent and gift.

If there is any way that i could explain such talents, i would say that if one ever desires something, so strongly, really really wants it, dreams of it, thinks about it regularly, it will become a reality. I for one, remember as a young child, looking at pics of woman, my sisters and mother,ect, and desiring to be like them, as a small boy, i remember doing this, and look at me now!! The stronger you want it, desire it, the more powerful it becomes in you. I am a very strong believer in ....."Dream it to make it"

How many of us remember doing this, before they ever wore a stitch of clothing?

Chantelle

sterling12

06-07-2007, 03:34 PM

Everyone that I talk to has a different story. Different ages of onset, different progressions, different destinations for each person.

No scientific data, but I believe we are all part of a very broad transgendered spectrum, probably all a part of the same group. This includes T-Women, TS, and perhaps effeminate males.

Although CD is not a disease, I can relate it to research done trying to find a cure for Cancer. We once thought Cancer was one disease, now we know that it is probably hundreds of diseases, with many different causes. Each Cancer different, but with the same result, uncontrolled cellular growth.

If they ever find the reason(s) for Crossdressing, will they ever find a "cure?" Seems very doubtful, as the proclivity to dress seems to be just about impossible to extinguish, unlike phobias and compulsions.

Current thinking for Professionals who actually work with the phenomenon is to help The Crossdresser find acceptance and learn coping skills for dealing with the problems. GENDER DYSPHORIA is no longer considered to be a psychiatric disease. In fact, wish they would drop the Dysphoria Moniker. DYS in medical parlance means "Bad", as in Dysrythmia.

Now go back to your research! But remember, "why" is often a conundrum!

Peace and Love, Joanie

Rita B

06-07-2007, 03:43 PM

Very much so Ashleigh, and I am a prime example. I don't know if I ever posted a pic of me at age 3. Check under pictures titled"My New Hairdo"

Rita

Satrana

06-08-2007, 01:31 AM

Sometimes this works, but there have been many cases where it has been a dismal failure. Even with hormonal assistance, you can't force a person into a gender which doesn't match their core gender identity.

Robin, your two sentences contradict each other. If sometimes it does work then clearly it is possible to force gender identity.

In fact there are dozens of botched circumcisions on male babies all around the world that have resulted in baby boys being turned into girls and none of them ended up like the David Reimer case. They accepted their new gender without the issues that arose in the Reimer case. Indeed there was a boy who lived in an adjacent town to where Reimer lived who also had his penis removed as a baby and is now a happily married woman.

Furthermore there are several societies including most notably the Polynesian island societies where boys were chosen to be raised as girls, again the new gender was accepted by the boys.

So there is a tall stack of case studies in which boys were successfully turned into girls verses the David Reimer case. There are fairly obvious and simple ideas to explain the Remeir case by these cannot be examined since he killed himself.

All this strongly suggests that there is no such thing as a central core gender which cannot be altered.

Now we crossdressers rarely have such external factors play a role in our lives, we are the ones in control and we were the ones who "choose" to be what we are.

Robin Leigh

06-09-2007, 06:08 AM

Robin, your two sentences contradict each other. If sometimes it does work then clearly it is possible to force gender identity.
I believe it sometimes works because some people (like us) are more flexible in their gender than others. David was obviously not born with TG potential.

:hugs:

Robin

Marla S

06-09-2007, 06:47 AM

In fact there are dozens of botched circumcisions on male babies all around the world that have resulted in baby boys being turned into girls and none of them ended up like the David Reimer case. They accepted their new gender without the issues that arose in the Reimer case. Indeed there was a boy who lived in an adjacent town to where Reimer lived who also had his penis removed as a baby and is now a happily married woman.
I am not an expert here, but when I read the bold parts, I get mixed feelings.
Given that there is something like a core gender identity (flexibel or not), what do we know about the issues and happiness.
Not every TG is a potential suicide (survival instinct is probably the strongest instinct we have and it is likely that it covers other needs), happiness is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I thought I'd know what happiness is (actually I was a bit disappointed), but after I was able to accept myself another stage was ignited.

What do we know about all these people that are not happy with their life ?
Is it only the job, the money, trouble with wife/hubby and family ? Or might there be some that try desperately to adjust to the gender norms, but fail and don't even know why.
(We all here know that thinking about the own identity is a very difficult and exhausting subject which requires some intellectual potential not to get lost. Not everybody is gifted this way, and some that are might "find" other ways to deal with it.)

Does it need clothes to be TG ?

battybattybats

06-09-2007, 09:06 AM

What do we know about all these people that are not happy with their life ?
Is it only the job, the money, trouble with wife/hubby and family ? Or might there be some that try desperately to adjust to the gender norms, but fail and don't even know why.
(We all here know that thinking about the own identity is a very difficult and exhausting subject which requires some intellectual potential not to get lost. Not everybody is gifted this way, and some that are might "find" other ways to deal with it.)

Does it need clothes to be TG ?

Some very good points that really bear thinking about.. and not just TG issues either but all the other socially unacceptable things that get repressed.

Marla S

06-09-2007, 05:35 PM

Batty:angel:, thanks a lot for your nice words.

I just have seen a documentary about children and the development of their personality.
And there was a statement spoken that fits in a bit here.

"He shows classical feminine behavior.
Hopefully it will not become oppressed by the peer pressure when he joins a boys gang during his adolescence. He might become a new type of man":eek:

(...... or a crossdresser :D)

Precisely they spoke about one of identical twins (7 years of age).
He and his twin brother were in a room with "typical" girls toys.
While his brother tried to make something "boyish" with the toys, the respective boy jumped right to the baby dolls and started to dress them in a very careful way.

Neither the parents nor the psychologists had an explanation for the different behavior (not only shown in this experiment, they said).
The parents said they bring them up identically, they see the same, they have same experiences.
The doctors said their testosterone level is identical too.
"They are just different, we don't know why"

It wasn't mentioned if there is some preference for clothes (he didn't look girlish), which is not necessary, because for me this would be an example for TG without clothes.

Hopefully this boy doesn't have to suffer in the future because he acts too girlish.

Joni Beauman

06-10-2007, 12:41 AM

I'm reading a book called Brain Gender, written by a physiologist (she specializes in the complex physiology of gender), that provides some interesting insights for the miriad array of possibilities for variation along a gender gradient. Many can be attributed to developmental phases when gender is determined from gonads identical among XX and XY fetuses. Apparently we stay XX phenologically unless androgen hormones are not blocked by other hormones - and there are a great many variations in hormone balances that lead to variation in outward and interior expression of gender. Anyway, the data presented in the book, not written too technically for non-scientists, supports the notion of a gender gradient based on multiple pre- and post-natal hormonal experiences. As to theories, I think there is a biological basis. Whether this is genetic or physiological may be a chicken and egg sort of question and doesn't much matter except I doubt cding is a "condition" that can be shown to be trasmitted through genetic lines. I guess that leads to the hormone wash hypothesis, but with secular leanings. Joni

Satrana

06-12-2007, 05:41 AM

Neither the parents nor the psychologists had an explanation for the different behavior (not only shown in this experiment, they said).
The parents said they bring them up identically, they see the same, they have same experiences.
The doctors said their testosterone level is identical too.
"They are just different, we don't know why"

I recall reading another case study on twins in which one became a crossdresser and the other not. Since both had the same genetics, the same hormonal experience in the womb and the same living conditions at home then the only sensible explanation is that transgenderness is based on nothing more than what type of personality you are born with, how this fits in with what society expects of you and whether you decide at some point during your childhood to stay true to yourself or whether you let gender conditioning castrate your feminine side.

Unfortunately for boys, the choice to stay true forces them into the dark closet where their transgendered personality gets corrupted and twisted by fantasies and new found sexuality, instead of being expressed as a normal personality trait in a welcoming social environment. The end result is a secretive shamed crossdresser who is not recognizable from his simple, humble beginnings as a healthy routine boy who just happens to like things which society, in its ignorant wisdom, has deemed taboo.

This tool we call crossdressing is based on nothing more than personality traits - our likes and dislikes - which become ingrained into our being as we grow up.

Imagine for a second you loved to eat strawberries as a child. But society said at age 10 you were now prohibited from eating them anymore. Is there not a likelihood that some people will find this rule silly? that everytime they see a strawberry the fact they are forbidden to eat it will grate against their consciousness? will some not eventually choose to ignore the rule and sneak into a strawberry field late at night when nobody can see them? And when they taste that strawberry, it will be amazing because of all the emotions that have been condensed into the thought of eating one.

I find it odder that people have to seek weird and wonderful theories to explain the fact that we desire a certain look for ourselves. This is just normal routine humanity folks! To me, this is like someone using hormone wash theory to explain why they like cars so much. Nobody needs theories to explain our love of cars so why do we need theories to explain our choice in clothes? This is just who we are, the only odd thing is why society is so intolerant of diversity among people.

Marla S

06-12-2007, 07:12 AM

I recall reading another case study on twins in which one became a crossdresser and the other not. Since both had the same genetics, the same hormonal experience in the womb and the same living conditions at home then the only sensible explanation is that transgenderness is based on nothing more than what type of personality you are born with ...
I agree, but having a scientific background, folks like me will search for the cause of that personality we are born with. The womb wash hypothesis might be an option, if you assume that there is a non equal distribution of nutrition and probably hormones in the womb even for identical twins.
I. e. usually they are not born with identical size and weight. Hence their development is very similar but not identical in the womb. Why should the personality be ? And it is a fact that the personality is different for identical twins, it doesn't usually effect the gender identiy though.

Unfortunately for boys, the choice to stay true forces them into the dark closet where their transgendered personality gets corrupted and twisted by fantasies and new found sexuality, instead of being expressed as a normal personality trait in a welcoming social environment. The end result is a secretive shamed crossdresser who is not recognizable from his simple, humble beginnings as a healthy routine boy who just happens to like things which society, in its ignorant wisdom, has deemed taboo.
Exactly

This tool we call crossdressing is based on nothing more than personality traits - our likes and dislikes - which become ingrained into our being as we grow up.
Agreed. But I would go a step further. It's a corrupted tool and a tool of corruption. I don't think that we would see the split-personality approach or some fetishism like episodes, if we wouldn't have imbibeb the corruption from our infancy.

Imagine for a second you loved to eat strawberries as a child. But society said at age 10 you were now prohibited from eating them anymore. Is there not a likelihood that some people will find this rule silly? that everytime they see a strawberry the fact they are forbidden to eat it will grate against their consciousness? will some not eventually choose to ignore the rule and sneak into a strawberry field late at night when nobody can see them? And when they taste that strawberry, it will be amazing because of all the emotions that have been condensed into the thought of eating one.
I agree again.
My favorite example here are odors or parfumes.
I don't think that there is a gender specific preference for certain odors.
Nevertheless someone got the idea that odors have to be split in odors for men and odors for women.
Men got the one's of a rotten piece of leather, burned wood, chem Lab, a sharp cleanser or, if it is more a unisex odors, that of a citrus fresh dishwashing liquid. The more flowery and sweeter odors are for women.
Actually this is complete nonsens, and I know it, nevertheless my corrupted soul hasitates to buy the parfum I like because it is labeld "for women".
When I bought it I am overwhelmed because it's labeled "for women".
What a corrupted crap !!! :Angry3:

I find it odder that people have to seek weird and wonderful theories to explain the fact that we desire a certain look for ourselves. This is just normal routine humanity folks! To me, this is like someone using hormone wash theory to explain why they like cars so much. Nobody needs theories to explain our love of cars so why do we need theories to explain our choice in clothes? This is just who we are, the only odd thing is why society is so intolerant of diversity among people.
Well, searching for a theory for something that doesn't fit to the rules is normal routine humanity too. But because the human psyche and personality is a black box (for scientists and oneself) the causes of an effect might lie in the complete opposite direction.

But you are right, it becomes pointless, if the society and we start to accept personalities as they were born. The How is by far more imporant than the Why.

I am slightly optimistic that progress can be reached there (maybe not during our lifetime though)

Satrana

06-13-2007, 12:12 AM

I agree, but having a scientific background, folks like me will search for the cause of that personality we are born with. The womb wash hypothesis might be an option, if you assume that there is a non equal
distribution of nutrition and probably hormones in the womb even for identical twins.
I. e. usually they are not born with identical size and weight. Hence their development is very similar but not identical in the womb. Why should the personality be ? And it is a fact that the personality is different for identical twins, it doesn't usually effect the gender identity though.

I grew up with identical twins as good friends. I never had any trouble telling them apart physically but everyone else did. Ok they are identical, I understand that part. What I did not get was their personalties were complete opposites. One is highly excitable, full of energy and enthusiasm, always asking questions, always talking. The other was quiet, laid back, and seemed disinterested in life. This made it very easy to tell them apart if people could get over their physical similarity.

How can identical twins end up with such differing personalities? Well I don't know how personalities are produced. I am happy to accept that when you put billions of cells into a brain and these have billions of connections between them, then the normal element of randomness that is part of the evolutionary process of species diversity will always produce unique brains which will exhibit unique personalities. Thats as far as I need to go.

All I know is I am a completely normal human being who just happened to be born with a personality matrix that conflicted with the artificial concept of social gender rules in the 20th century. What makes me different is that the gender conditioning did not fully take hold during my upbringing. I subconsciously rebelled against it in the same way teenagers subconsciously rebel against authority. It is a normal human condition to want to express yourself and not be told how to think and behave so the two mechanisms are the same.

Gender rebellion starts earlier in mid childhood when we are expected to begin mimicking adult behavior, many children go through a phase of doubts and issues most clearly observed in tomboyish behavior in girls.
Authority rebellion starts later when our minds and bodies have grown to the same level as adults and we feel ready to compete.

The important thing to remember is that teenager authority rebellion is a new development in our society. Prior to the 1950s teenager rebellion was not tolerated by society, teenagers already had adult responsibilities so they did not have the luxury of doing things their own way. The same was true of gender, you did not have a choice.

But recently with the growth of leisure, self-development and individualism, more and more people are demanding their rights not to conform and to have choices how they will live their lives. Our liberal society encourages the uniqueness of our personalties to be taken into account. Fortunately I am living at the right time to take advantage of this.

It's a corrupted tool and a tool of corruption. Great quote! Hits the heart of the matter like a hot knife through butter.:drink:

tiffianycd

06-13-2007, 12:45 AM

I heard these theories before and I think they dont work like what Ruth said about them. I am a man who dresses as a woman. I have an Identy issues or I am plan crazy I do not know anymore. I think in my head I am a woman and I feel like one but when I look at myself I am a man.
My mother told me along time a go she wish I was a girl and not a boy and she wished me dead. sad but true. some may say I dress to gain my mothers acceptance but I dressed long before then. I had gone to counsling and the only thing I was told is to go through with the uerges till they pass or fight them. I right now. I had already doing both.
tiffianycd

phoenixgurl

06-13-2007, 03:25 AM

I started to dress when I was young. I don't know what caused me to but it seemed right and I just stuck with it. as for the theory behind crossdressing it seems possible that those could be possible reasons but I have a feeling the world may never know

Sheri 4242

06-13-2007, 03:48 AM

Wow! This just goes on and on. Nevertheless, I find it all very fascinating.

It's fine to have an attitude that simply says "I am what I am" -- and it's fine to say one doesn't like labels. But, that shouldn't stop me -- or anyone else who is likeminded -- from reading, studying and researching.

To have meaningful discussions on what we read, study, research and learn, we need to be on the same page with regard to defintions, otherwise it would be too easy to talk at cross-purposes which would perpetuate gross misunderstandings.

Ashleigh, when I'm not in a dress, I'm a scientist, and I know a theory when I see one. I didn't see any in that link you posted. There's some techno jargon but no coherent mechanism proposed.

Both theories are interesting however there is little to validate either one. Sadly there is a lack of research in any topic related to human sexuality.

The links, however written, were a whole lot MORE than mere jargon!!!!!!! Personally, I am more familiar with the research on the hormone bath wash than any other. That said, there is some illogical jumping to conclusions going on. The hormone bath is discussed in leading medical books and scholarly journals, as well as leading psychology and psychiatric books, research reports, and professional journals!!! Pick up any survey-level textbook on psychology and you will find literally hundreds of scholarly cites, in re valid research on human sexuality.

I'd be willing to wager that one book in particular (which relates to diagnosis and therapy) can be found in every doctor's office in the States, it being considered that authoritative. (Thankfully, its suggestion on therapy regarding CDing is aimed at acceptance and accomodation and not at any cure. And this is backed up by dozens upon dozens of highly reputable scholarly publications in medicine and psychology. Marina and I may have some slight "technical" disagreements from time-to-time, but obviously we are both reading and assessing much of the same current research, its various interpretations and implications.)

The research on the developing brain (size comparisons of certain specific cell clusters within the brain) and crossdressing is cutting edge, yet associated with, and possibly linked to, the hormone wash. This is science!!! The research is real and highly documented -- validation is by ongoing degrees!!!

If it is genetic then shouldn't crossdressers have more crossdressing children?

No, Jennifer (to answer your specific question). Any study of genetics shows that some genetic characteristics often jump generations, while other traits pass to the next generation depending on the mix from the other influencing source. In genetics, you could have one dominating source influencing CDing, but the outcome has to consider the dominate and recessive traits provided by the other partner!

Likewise the "hormone wash theory" has the same problem. When twins are born--fraternal or identical--then they must have been exposed to the same womb and same mother's hormones. Yet you seldom find two crossdressers resulting from such births.

Fraternal twins develop independently -- but the identical twin question raises more of a perplexing situation. It is known that one fetus draws at different rates and degrees from the mother than the other . . . and what can and cannot pass the placental barrier also plays a role. Even position in the womb raises certain questions -- if one fetus is dominating and pushing the other, it can pinch off (slow down or otherwise effect) blood flow, oxygen, and even hormonal flow.

In the main, I guess we really aren't talking about theories -- we're talking about scientific medical phenomenon. IOW, it happens but we can only theorize about the hows and whys, which is to say reasonable hypotheticals; some of us, as Dixie said, find one assertion more believable and convincing than another. One thing that is known is that there is a clear distinction between core gender identity and gender role indentity and this requires us to distinguish between the subjective and the objective, or that which is congruus from the incongruous. A prenatal hormonal milieu DOES occur and determines, to some degree, gender identity. What is unknown is the formation of an unconflicted gender identity and gender role. There is ambiguity within the controlled scientific data . . . for example, most children with gender identity conflicts do not develop into transsexual adults.

Something that I haven't seen noted here is that diagnosis requires the presence of BOTH cross-gender identification (the desire to be, or the insistence that one is, the other sex) AND a concurrent demonstrated, substantial sense of discomfort about one's sex or gender role. This is where the various disciplines come into conflict -- for example, read the DSM-IV-TR, versus the latest edition of The Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy. There is some agreement, yet we are still dealing with the differences between medical professionals and mental health professionals, the latter including some medical professionals.

What does it all mean??? Usually, those who have a greater imbalance in core gender identity tend to be crossdressers; those who have a greater imbalance in gender role identity tend to be transsexual. This isn't just stabbing in the dark as someone suggested. It is presenting real science whose ends have not yet been reached.

Robin Leigh was correct in asserting that it is pointless to debate nature vs nurture. Certainly, nurture influences how & when one's gender diversity will manifest, but you can't make a girl out of a boy.