Need a hug

[pocoyo]

I apologise in advance for how long this post is... but it needs to be for me to explain my thoughts lol
Thank you if you stick with it:

Hi. so I went to bed on time like a good boy. (1st time for ages).

But I continued reading a book on transsexualism that I've been working my way through.

It focused my mind on some of the issues I/we're facing as transgendered/transsexual.

And I got a bit sad/upset/flustered and obviously then was not in the mood for sleeping, specially with my tonsilitisyness. (I now have a hot chocolate and paracetomol lol).

... these are the 3 main things that concern me about transitioning:

1) I'm scared I will somehow lose myself or part of myself that is/might be very important. (As in soul/emotionally/how I AM in the world).
- also that it might not be "right" to mess with our "natural" bodies.

2) I am absolutely terrified of surgery, I'm scared I will die because of the anaesthetic or some complication in surgery. Or not be able to cope with feeling poorly after surgery.
Also, the thought of being artificially put to sleep... and out of control... is horrible.

3) I don't want to make God angry or hurt or upset.
I am a very spiritual type person, I don't really strongly follow any particular religion, but rather glean bits from all the religions I encounter and realise have good teachings (if u ask me the good bits of all link up anyway.. but please don't start a debate about that, that's not the point here).

Anyway, it has come to my attention that many religious people do not think it is acceptable to be transsexual and interfere with our god-given bodies.

Could somebody tell me the bits of the bible/and/or other religious works that say why it's bad to be trans?

Then I can make a decision (on what God/s would think acceptable), myself based on what it says.

Like.. obviously some stuff isn't meant to be taken literally... and lots of the good stuff is general, common sense rules on how to live your life nicely (treat others as u would be treated yourself) etc.

And there are many people that twist and warp the words of God/religious works, and have wars and say/do stupid things that no way would God want.

So if it's that type of thing (obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that God wouldn't mind... and it's just the intolerant humans only that have issue with transness), then that wouldn't stop me from transitioning.

But if there is some actual proper strict rule that translates like:

"This is the word of God... transsexual people are definitely, without doubt, sinners and when they die will spend eternity in hell/will suffer in some bad way"...

Then I'm not transitioning :straightface:


Anyway, I'm all bleh and need a hug :(

(haha I was laying in bed and randomly occasionally sobbing out loud!... What a jerk!)



p.s. I'm also wondering (& thinking it's quite likely) if there are other parts that somehow counteract the apparent anti-transness in the religious teachings. Stuff like "be true to yourself" or "Live the best way you can, as long as it doesn't harm others" or whatever.
That would probably only be in the humans are anti trans.. not God, scenario though.
I think if there is some obvious strict rule, (like my 2nd scenario), then probably nothing could really counteract that. .... doh.... :doh:

[CaptLex]

Wow, a deep subject - and me without a brain right now. I'm so tired, I had to read that twice to try and let it seep into my brain. I'm just wondering what part of what you were reading brought out these feelings - especially the feelings about going against God's word.

I think everything taught in the Bible or in other religious scripture is open to interpretation and we do the best we can to try to figure it out and apply it to our lives. Do you feel that you were meant to be as you are (trans)? That God/s intended for you to live between genders? If so, that's fine. But if you feel that we are on a journey on this planet from the day we are born till the day we die, and that the journey takes us through self-exploration and possible changes, that's cool too.

Not everyone is going to agree on this subject, and you have to find what works for you. We can discuss it further, if you want . . . I'll just need to get my hands on some caffeine first. :hugs:

[Cai]

:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:
Tricky questions. Very similar to the ones I've been dealing with.

In my personal opinion: God loves us (the whole "whomsoever believes in Me is saved). "Us" being the entire human race, with all our flaws. God wants us to be happy. And transitioning isn't, to me, any different from any other medical procedure to help people with anything. So it isn't inherently any more sinful to transition than to take allergy medication (in my view).

I can't help with the losing self question, I've been struggling with the same thing. I agonized for days over whether to change my name on another forum I'm on, because I had a whole persona built up that I was afraid to lose. But a very wise woman there told me that who we are is not tied up in our name or in our outward appearance - it's just who we are.

Does it help with the surgery fears if I tell you that less than one patient out of 13,000 has fatal complications with anesthetic? Probably not. It doesn't really help me - I hate the idea of anesthetic myself. I had my impacted wisdom teeth out while I was awake. But remember that anything that goes on during surgery or immediately following is temporary. You'll go back to feeling normal after you recover.

I just answered those in totally random order because I was answering them as ideas came into my head. Sorry about that.

[pocoyo]

Wow, a deep subject - and me without a brain right now. I'm so tired, I had to read that twice to try and let it seep into my brain. I'm just wondering what part of what you were reading brought out these feelings - especially the feelings about going against God's word.
Well I was reading about surgeries and so longing for maleness (being a complete male) and that feeling of rightness... but feeling confused about it.

I was thinking about the God thing because that's been part of my concerns all along (I don't know why I've never mentioned it b4 on here, I say it to my Mum quite often, and mentioned it to my counsellor this week).


I think everything taught in the Bible or in other religious scripture is open to interpretation and we do the best we can to try to figure it out and apply it to our lives. Do you feel that you were meant to be as you are (trans)? That God/s intended for you to live between genders? If so, that's fine. But if you feel that we are on a journey on this planet from the day we are born till the day we die, and that the journey takes us through self-exploration and possible changes, that's cool too.
That's a good point, do I feel as though its intended that I should be trans/between genders?
I guess not... I guess I was thinking that God might probably want me to be a girl and that by wanting to be a boy I'm doing wrong.
In which case I am also doing wrong by living as a transgendered individual :worried: But at least I haven't done any permanent change to my body.

It's another reason I keep hoping my theory about undescended testicles is true... and that I'm actually intersexed... because if God built me as both genders, then he wouldn't be mad whichever one I chose.

I like what u say about the journey and self exploration and changes...
That does seem the kind of thing God or a higher power would actually approve of.


Not everyone is going to agree on this subject, and you have to find what works for you. We can discuss it further, if you want . . . I'll just need to get my hands on some caffeine first. :hugs:
Yes true... I can imagine some people getting a bit funny about it... but I really needed to ask...

Hehe awww bless, thank you.
It's ok.. I'd better try and go back to sleep now.

Thank you for your cool answer :bighug:

[Cai]

That's a good point, do I feel as though its intended that I should be trans/between genders?
I guess not... I guess I was thinking that God might probably want me to be a girl and that by wanting to be a boy I'm doing wrong.
In which case I am also doing wrong by living as a transgendered individual :worried: But at least I haven't done any permanent change to my body.

It's another reason I keep hoping my theory about undescended testicles is true... and that I'm actually intersexed... because if God built me as both genders, then he wouldn't be mad whichever one I chose.


You know that whole idea that people use to often condemn transsexuals - "God doesn't make mistakes"? He doesn't. We're meant to be exactly as we are - transgendered. It makes us who we are. (I think I brought this up at Prom).

[pocoyo]

You know that whole idea that people use to often condemn transsexuals - "God doesn't make mistakes"? He doesn't. We're meant to be exactly as we are - transgendered. It makes us who we are. (I think I brought this up at Prom).

Hey good one. I like it :hugs:
Good point.

[kerrianna]

:bighug: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

Poc I can't comment on what God wants because I never grew up with that kind of God in my life. I do believe in a higher power and I really never even thought about what my higher power would think about transitioning. Come to think of it, in that case what does God think about cosmetic surgery? Or about anything that medical science does to circumvent "God's will". Really, kiddo, I think it comes down to what YOU think about it. That's what your higher power wants is for you to be the best person you can be.

And to that, I really doubt that transitioning will shift your personality much more than any other life experience. The fact is as you get older and stuff happens you do change, but your core self doesn't unless it's poorly developed in the first place. I really think you have an incredibly STRONG core self. It shines through everything you do and all your moods, and it's why you are so well loved by everyone here. Carol thinks you are the cat's meow too.

As for the physical fears, well I hear you brother. It totally scares me, and I agree about not screwing around with the body unless you have to. But lots of people don't feel that way and everyday thousands of people have successful elective surgery. I guess it comes down to how important it is to you. When you know that it is, then you will find a way to walk through each step conquering your fears and handling the temporary discomfort.

Carol says you shouldn't be reading books like that at bed :p and that you aren't having surgery tomorrow, so take a deep breath and relax for now.

I know exactly how you are feeling. The TG/TS sledgehammer just whacked you. You'll feel better soon, and we'll help you whenever you need us.

:hugs::love:

[Kate Simmons]

Poc, Without getting too philosophical or religious, there are two things I have learned for sure:
1. We are who we are for a reason.

2. We have the choice to shape our own destiny or follow the crowd and advice of others.

Putting that into perspective, for whatever reason, we are who we are. If forging and shaping our own destiny calls for modifications, we may need to make them, be they physical, emotional or spiritual. We always have choices based on informed decisions and our feelings as to what is "right" for us. We need to take total responsibility for whatever choices we make however as that is part of the measure of a real person, a person who will make a difference in the world.:happy:

[CaptLex]

That's a good point, do I feel as though its intended that I should be trans/between genders?
I guess not... I guess I was thinking that God might probably want me to be a girl and that by wanting to be a boy I'm doing wrong.
In which case I am also doing wrong by living as a transgendered individual :worried: But at least I haven't done any permanent change to my body.
Of course this is just my own personal opinion (felt that I had to say that first) . . . but if God, Allah, a Higher Power or whatever you feel most comfortable calling it (it's all the same to me) had intended you to be a girl, you wouldn't be trans. And trans (to me) means that you have the free will (also from God) to figure out what you are and what you want to do about it - or not do anything about it, if you prefer.


It's another reason I keep hoping my theory about undescended testicles is true... and that I'm actually intersexed... because if God built me as both genders, then he wouldn't be mad whichever one I chose.
Sweetie, I don't think God would be mad at you no matter what you chose - He loves you. Just as you are. The outside is just window dressing. He knows the real you, and doesn't care what you wear or what parts of your outside appearance you feel happier changing. All that comes to an end eventually and you're left with the real you - the part of you that He (and we) know and love.

And I completely agree with what Cai says. I too have often heard the "God doesn't make mistakes" argument, and to that I say, "No He doesn't, and that's why He made me trans."

Carol is a wise one . . . reading heavy stuff like that before bed is sure to interfere with your rest. Here's another hug . . . :bighug:

[Sharon]

I'll reply, not in the order you posted your worries, but in the order of how I view their importance and relativity to you. I have a feeling that you already have the arguements in mind anyway, because you have obviously been debating these things in your mind for a long time.

The God I choose to believe in loves us all equally, and if you believe in the omnipotence of God, then you will understand that you were created the way you were intentionally, and not as a punishment nor as a cruel joke either. My God doesn't joke around. Every one of us has value, and the right to be who we are. In fact, I believe it is our obligation to be who we are, or who we were intended to be. I don't have quotes from the Bible for you, but I trust my faith in its true message -- love yourself, love everyone else, and treat others as you wish to be treated yourself.

I have had many surgeries through the years, ranging from amputations to a ruptured appendix, and have survived them all perfectly well. Anything is possible in the operating room, but complications are extremely rare when you consider the number that are performed every day. I place such importance on my srs, that the risk is well worth it in my mind.

As far as losing that which makes you "you," I have no fears of that happening at all. If anything, you will just be an enhanced you when you are finally comfortable with your physical as well as emotional state.

:love:

[CaptLex]

As far as losing that which makes you "you," I have no fears of that happening at all. If anything, you will just be an enhanced you when you are finally comfortable with your physical as well as emotional state.
:yt: What she said! I forgot I wanted to say this also. When you figure out who you are and what you want, and work to make that happen and make yourself happy, you won't feel like you've lost anything. In fact, you'll probably find that the real you is then free to be - finally found and not lost. :happy:

[kerrianna]

It so nice to see that a guy can get up in the middle of the night in crisis and not only get hugs but pearls of wisdom from his friends.

I think the lad has gone to bed now and I hope he has a more restful sleep.

From now on Poc, lighter reading material at bed. Like stories of princesses being rescued and magic ponies and buttercups and OH! sorry! Those are MY stories.

OK, then read from The Dangerous Book for Boys :p and dream of blowing things up or whatever it is they talk about. :rolleyes: :heehee:

Good night sweet prince. :hugs: :love:

[Tristan]

:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:

First off lots of hugs. I too struggled with the religion aspect of being trans. I found this short story collection in my library a year or so ago and in it was one story about a mtf. In the story she's come to see her sister to ask if she can stay with her family during her surgery. The sister is religious and asks how her brother could change his body like that because God had intended for him to be a man. The reply I wish I had word for word for you, Pocs, because this author stated it so wonderfully, but the gist of it was:

How do you know that the real test of faith from God was me being able to accept that I was trans gendered and have the strength and faith in him to go through with this. Or how do you know that the test is not for you? That he's testing your faith by seeing if you will still love and accept me?

It was along that lines. The author wrote it much better then I summarized it. If it is true that we have souls that answer to a higher power, whoever that might be, for me I believe what is the point of that soul if we do not grow and learn. I don't see trans as going against the wishes of God, but rather showing the ultimate faith in him. Because to do this you have to have that faith in that no this body is not the one I was intended to have. I'm not sure if that helps or if I'm just rambling.

As for the surgeries, they scare me a little bit too. I know there are risks involved, but I'm trying to take it one step at a time, and I recommend this. Because the road of transition can be big and scary if you look at the whole picture, but all you really need to do is take it one step at a time and there are options. Also surgeries have improved a great deal and so have the way people respond to them. My mom's last surgery they didn't use a general anesthesia they used a spinal block which just numbed the lower part of her body for the duration of the surgery without her having to go through that fogginess.

As for losing who you are. I don't think we ever truly lose who we are. Our lives in a way are a book. Each part of our life is a chapter and it's always there and it always stays with us even if we've moved onto the next chapter in our life. You may grow and change as a person if you transition, but I've found I've grown and changed in my life before I've even transitioned. Change is already a part of our life. Again I'm not sure I'm making any sense. But I do have lots of hugs for you buddy.

Now put down that book and read some star wars and the good stuff. No more deep stuff before bed.

[Mariah]

*HUGS* ^_^


Hopes to you
keris

[Holly]

Okay, let's get this part out of the way first... :hugs:. Feel better?

Who you are is determined by what is on the inside of you, not the outside. Poc, the fact of the matter is that you are not facing transition. What you are facing is a metamorphosis. Just as the caterpillar is destined to become a butterfly, you are destined to become you. Doing anything less would be wrong. Okay?

There is nothing that we do on a daily basis that is not without some sort of risk. If we prepare a meal on the stove, we risk getting burned. If we walk along the road, we risk being hit by a passing automobile. If we elect to have surgery, yes there is some risk. But it is minimal. Just as we protect ourselves while working around hazardous locations, we protect ourselves from adverse reactions to medical procedures by using highly skilled (and caring) people to help us in this area. Poc, you'll be fine.

<puts on Religion Section moderator hat> You and I are children of the King (no, not Elvis). The entire essence of God can be broken down into this trustworthy passage of scripture; "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:30-31, NIV) This the entire reason we are here in the first place. We were created to love Him and love one another. And we were NOT created to be hated; what creator would hate His own creation? We are the apple of His eye and highly treasured by Him. And He wants to have a relationship with us; "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39, NIV) Poc, as long as you honor God with your love of Him, you will be just fine.

Finally, my friend, have no concern how others may "interpret" religious works. We have a personal relationship with the Creator Himself. And He would be more than please to discuss this with you personally.

I'll end now as I started... :hugs: I love you, Poc.

[GACountrygal]

I agree with what everyone else has said. They have put it so much better then I could even try to!!
Just know I'm sendin ya hugs and prayers for peace of mind and strength!
:hugs: :hugs:
Nic

[ZenFrost]

I think we all have moments like this, sometimes things just hit us and we hardly know what to do. My advise would be to take a step back and look at things from another angle. For instance, not all FtMs choose to have surgery, many go on T and have that be their entire transition.

I don't think you should feel pressured into not transitioning because of religious reasons. If god is truly great, then he'd want you to find you own happiness through whatever reasons you need to. If you feel that your body is not what it's supposed to be, then you'd only become a more complete person by transitioning, instead of losing part of your self. Who you are on the inside can't change because of your outside. And if who you are on the inside isn't who you are on the outside, then making those two things match will only be better for you.

Another note on the surgery: as I've mentioned before I recently went through a major surgery (I've had a number of small surgeries before but this was the biggest) and it had a number of serious risks. But, if I didn't have it, 50 years from now I would have serious problems. So think of this: if the only reason you avoid transitioning ends up being due to fear of surgery, 50 years from now, will you regret that you didn't transition? It could be a matter of overcoming fear now or being overcome with regrets later on.

Remember, you don't have to decide right away. Surgery is a big step and it might not be right for you, so take your time when making your final decision.

P.S. *hugs*

[bi_weird]

*HUG!*
Poc, quick question: are you trans?
The answer is yes. You know that in your heart to be true. So think about what that says about the nature of any higher power. Either A.) You are trans and have been created to explore that and find your own true gender identity which the higher power is happy with, or B.) Your trans nature, while obviously an integral and true part of yourself, is a cruel joke played on you by a creator which wants to send you to hell. Who believes in that sort of god? Any higher power that exists with the ability to determine who you are is decent enough to not create you as some horrible joke. Otherwise, why should you respect him?
The god question is something I've really struggled with, but not with the trans thing. More than a year ago a couple of Christians approached me on campus and tried to convince me to accept Jesus. My sexual orientation came up, and they told me that it was the devil trying to tempt me. I almost ended up in tears, because this sounded so aweful, but that got me thinking. I'm not bi for any silly reason, but rather I am bisexual because some core part of my being which I have no control over is bisexual. If I was created, I was made this way, and I find it more probable that I am supposed to act on this than that this creator make me to suffer.
As logical and scientific as I am, I'd be an atheist except that I can't give up on some sort of god. I think there's something out there, and he's glad when we accept and love ourselves, and spread that feeling to others.
Many hugs. If you were here, I'd lend you Pete, who I bought at the zoo today. He's a gigantic lime green stuffed orangutan, with long arms which can be velcroed around you in a permanant hug.

[Laurie909]

As far as transitioning, people say G-d doesn't make mistakes, and I'm sure he (or she) doesn't. But who knows maybe something when you were born went wrong...something man-made, not g-d made and that's why you might feel like a boy trapped in a girl's body. As far as the surgery, I'm sure it's scary but it's probably an irrational fear. Last year I had a hernia operation and several years ago had all 4 widsom teeth pulled at the same time. Both times, I was "put out" with an anasthetic. I don't remember a thing. I went to sleep and I woke up....that's it. What's far more important... do you really know that surgery will make things right? That's why you (or anyone) must got to counseling before they have SRS. Because it's not like putting on a shirt...if you leave the house wearing a blue shirt and then you feel like you should have worn a red one, you can always go back to the house and change. On the other hand if you have the surgery and you don't feel right as a man, it's going to be a lot more difficult to change!

P.S. You can have a hug....and a kiss, for that matter!

[RevMoonSerpent]

Poc, :hugs:
I'm going to give you my take on the God issue and leave the others alone because I have some of those concerns myself.
What you need to understand is that you have your own relationship with God and if God didn't want you to have free choice you wouldn't be asking yourself these questions now about your gender identity.
As far as the bible is concerned, you shouldn't go looking for passages that either make being trans good or bad. The bible is a collection of personal accounts of how individuals saw things at the time they happened. A great example of this are the books of the new testament. Each has there own version of what happened with the birth and death of Jesus. All similar but, still different. That's why so many things conflict with each other. Also looking at it from a scientific/historical view there are a number of books that were excluded when the bible was written as a means for the church to control the congregation.
Don't let that control you Poc. Just live your life and know that it doesn't matter what you choose for yourself, God loves his children all the same.

For everyone else, don't kill me for my views on religion.

[Evert]

I found this, I think it's rather good:


I realize that some of you are not of the Christian Faith. However, many are religious and are still struggling with gender issues vs. issues of their faith. And many people who have reconciled this conflict have families and friends who have not. Therefore, this article, complete with scripture passages, is dedicated to those people.

We constantly hear questions like, "Is this against God? Am I going to hell? Is changing your body a mortal sin?" Families and friends who have never mentioned Christianity suddenly develop religion as soon as they hear that you are transsexual. Suddenly, you are in danger of hell fire because this is "against God".

First off, let me assure you that "transsexualism," "transgenderism" and "gender" are not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. If someone says it is, challenge them to find the scripture, write it down, and send it to me, because a computer search says it does not exist. I have read the Bible from cover to cover many times, and I have never seen it.

Most people can tell you their general interpretation of the Bible, but they cannot tell you where the supportive passages of scripture are.

Most people quote the passage that says that "men should not wear women's clothing; likewise, women should not wear the clothing of men." But most of them cannot tell you where to locate this in your Bible.

Let's look at what the Bible really says. I will give references and I will quote from the King James Version in boldface and from the more simplified Today's English Version in italics. I am quoting from the King James Version, because some people do not believe any other version of the Bible. Yet, because the King James Version is sometimes hard for someone not highly versed in ancient languages to interpret, I am also using the Today's English Version. Certain scriptures have been highlighted (boldface in italicized passages, and vice versa) for emphasis. You can follow along in your Bibles if you like. The passage that is quoted most often is found in Deuteronomy, chapter 22, verse 5:

22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment; for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
22:5 Women are not to wear men's clothing, and men are not to wear women's clothing; the Lord your God hates people who do such things.

This was the law that was given to Moses by God. But now let's look a little further down the same chapter in Deuteronomy 22: verses 8-9 and 11-12.

8: When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.
8: When you build a new house, be sure to put a railing around the edge of the roof. Then you will not be responsible if someone falls off and is killed.

9: Thou shall not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds; lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.
9: Do not plant any crop in the same field with your grapevines; if you do, you are forbidden to use either the grapes or the produce of the other crop

11: Thou shall not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woolen and linen together.
11: Do not wear cloth made by weaving wool and linen together.

12: Thou shall make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself.12: Sew tassels on the four corners of your clothes.

These are the laws of the times, the law that God gave Moses. Yet, how many of us put railings around the roof of our houses? But it's the Law ... God's Law.

Also, we plant all sorts of various seeds in our gardens, whether it be a vegetable or flower garden. This also is against the law of God. According to the laws in the Old Testament, we are breaking the law to plant corn and beans in the same garden.

What about the clothes we wear that are made of many different blends of natural and synthetic fibers? How many of us go around with tassels hanging from the four corners of our jackets and coats? Yet, this was God's law.

Can someone take one verse of scripture out of context and fit it to his purposes while ignoring the rest of the chapter? I think not.

These quotes are in the exact same chapter as the one about wearing the clothes of the opposite sex. Does someone who does not have tassels on his clothing or a railing around his roof have a right to judge someone who is wearing clothing of the opposite sex? Again, I think not. (This topic was covered by Drs. Powell & Mauger at the 1992 Southern Comfort convention).

Of course, all of this is actually irrelevant to transsexualism. If your brain tells you that you are female although your body is male, (or vice versa), and you wear the clothing opposite your biological sex, then you are wearing the clothing that is congruent with your gender ... you are not wearing the clothing of the opposite sex.

But still, let's look further. Since these laws were written in the Old Testament, are we still expected to follow them? Or did the advent of Christ change the way we should think about the laws of the Old Testament?

In John 1:17 we read:

17: For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ
17: God gave the law through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ

Galatians chapter 3 talks about the purpose of the Law and salvation. We read in Galatians 3:11, 17-29:

11: But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith11: Now, it is clear that no one is put right with God by means of the law, because the scripture says, Only the person who is put right with God through faith shall live.

17: And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that should make the promise of none effect.
17: What I mean is that God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it. The law, which was given four hundred and thirty years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel promise.

18: For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise; But God gave it to Abraham by promise.18: For if God's gift depends on the law, then it no longer depends on his promise. However, it was because of his promise that God gave that gift to Abraham.

19: Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to, whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.19: What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is, and it was meant to last until the coming of Abraham's descendant to whom the promise was made. The law was handed down by angels, with a man acting as a go-between.

21: Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid; for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.21: Does this mean that the law is against God's promises? No, not at all! For if mankind had received a law that could bring life, then everyone could be put right with God by obeying it.

22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
22: But the scripture says that the whole world is under the power of sin; and so the gift which is promised on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ is given to those who believe.

23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.23: But before the time for faith came, the law kept us all locked up as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed.

24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.24: And so the law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through Faith.

25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster
25: Now that the time for faith is here, the law is no longer in charge of us.
26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
26: It is through faith that all of you are God's sons in union with Christ Jesus.

27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ27: You were baptized into union with Christ, and now you are clothed, so to speak, with the life of Christ himself.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither Male nor Female: For ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
28: So there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles, between slaves and free men, between Men and Women: You are all one in union with Christ Jesus.

29: And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.29: If you belong to Christ, then you are the descendants of Abraham and will receive what God has promised.

Does this not say that we are no longer saved under the law, but rather through faith in Jesus Christ? Does it also not say that whether we are male or female, we all belong to Christ and therefore, are heirs to all the promises God made to Abraham? Could this possibly be any clearer? Matthew 7:1-2 states:

1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
1: Do not judge others, so that God will not judge you.

2: For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
2: For God will judge you in the same way you judge others, and he will apply to you the same rules you apply to others.
I Samuel 16:7 tells us:

7: But the Lord said unto Samuel, look no on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.
7: But the Lord said to him, "Pay no attention to how tall and handsome he is. I have rejected him, because I do not judge as man judges." Man looks at the outward appearance, but I look at the heart.

It is my opinion that God loves us all unconditionally and that the only real requirement is that We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Since starting the Montgomery Institute fourteen years ago, we have seen many new people come in blaming God for their misery, but God does not cause misery. Everyone has something to deal with. Problems are a part of life.

I, myself, am disabled and spend most of my time in bed. Instead of asking God, "why me?", I have learned to ask myself, "why not me?" Many, many people get seriously ill. Why should it skip me? Why would I consider myself exempt from problems that others have? It's just the percentages, and I just happened to be one whose number case up. I have a problem. So do you! So why waste valuable time worrying about why this happened, or why it happened to you? Instead, put your energy on solving the problems and dealing with what you have. It changes things for you ... it really does.

I've seen these same people who came to us cursing God go through the program, deal with what they have, and come through the experience as happy people. Many have gotten surgery and almost all of them are active in churches. All claim that dealing with these issues has brought them closer to God.

I hope you have found something of value in this article. At least you have actual verses of scripture to back up the fact that what you are doing is not against God.

Pray not for lighter loads, but for stronger backs

[Abraxas]

Mrhp.
:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:

Hmmm. A bit... completely exhausted here so didn't read all the replies. Apologies if I repeat something...

Also, I'm an atheist but for the sake of argument, here, I'll just put myself in the position of a theist/ Christian.

Consider this, about the God thing... If you were, say, born with some sort of defect, such as a cleft palate or a club foot or something... something that makes everyday life difficult or even dangerous/life threatening, then would you be opposed to having surgery to correct said defect? Do you think God would be opposed? I'm not saying that being transgender is a birth defect, but perhaps your whole body is. Mine, too. All of us. Just... the chromosomes got all muddled up somehow or something. I don't see this as being any different. God knows all about advances in medical science, and he allows them.
Isn't there that whole thing about how God only gives us what we can handle, and we're supposed to test ourselves and all that? Perhaps that's part of the test. He made you something out of the 'normal' scope of most peoples' understanding, and your test is to see what you do about it. Do you be yourself and make your physical self match up to your mental self, or do you... not.
Plus, I suppose it all depends on how you view sin as a concept. Is every sin equal (as some people believe)? Is killing someone or beating someone the same as calling someone a bad name or telling a white lie? What if you tell someone a lie so as to not hurt their feelings? Which is the greater good?
Which is worse, becoming the person you know you should be, or lying to yourself about who you really are your whole life? Let your family die of hunger or steal some food or money? Is it okay to kill someone if they're trying to kill you? It's all subjective.
Meh. I dunno.

As for the surgical stuff, as I've told you before (I think), there's an extremely low risk of having surgical complications these days. As for the fear of general anaesthesia and painkillers afterwards and things, I guess you just have to weigh the pros and cons and figure it out for yourself. Everyone's scared of surgery. That's probably because of medical dramas on TV for the most part, haha. And I'm not saying it's completely without risk, but if you don't risk stuff in life, you'll never get anywhere. You'll just sit in a corner afraid to move. *shrug* That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger and all that.

[Adam]

:hugs::hugs::hugs:

[O2B Barbara]

Here is a hug just for you. While I am not a great believer in God and organized religion, I do believe there is a Higher Power that has our guidance and wellbeing in mind. I am fairly sure that if you talked to enough clergy and biblical scholars you will find some that say it is a sin and others that say it is how you believe and act that is important.


I would think that if you treat others as well as you can, and keep your faith, you cna't go wrong with your decisions.

:hugs:HUGS:hugs:

[pocoyo]

Wow thanks everybody, I'm overwhelmed by your responses and the speed of them!

You guys n girls are awesome.

Thank you so much for being so thoughtful and kind. Taking the time to read and reply, and in such depth.
These replies have been really really helpful.

I will reply properly later when my brain isn't so fuzzy!!

A big thank you anyway :bighug: and a hug back to all the hugs!

[Felix]

Hi Pocs my friend well now I know and am glad I don't have to think about such things. I took religion and religious thought out of the equation ages ago and I'm so pleased cos at least now it's one less thing to do my head in and send me on guilt trips about. I'm not saying I disrespect anyone who has firm beliefs but i've guilt enough without adding religion and doctrine to the melting pot. It's much easier without. I have told a three of my pagan friends about how I perceive myself and they seem accepting so that's cool. Sorry if this has not been exactly what ya was after Hun. Please don't let it all do ya head in be happy :hugs: xx Felix

[Siobhan Marie]

hey Poc, there's not much that I can add to this because to be honest I really don't know where to start.

So what I am going to do is what I do best and say "come here Poc", take you into my arms and give you the cuddle that you need right now.

:love: ya loads honey. :hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:

:hugs: Anna x

[battybattybats]

Hi, I don't normally peruse this section but I caught the title on the main page.

:hugs:

As to your concerns.. fears are by their nature informative and I can't advise you on what's right for you but I do think that no-one should go further on the path of transition than they feel completely comfortable with and ready for. With any momentous and irreversible decision it'd be dreadful to make a decision that could be later regreted.

I'm not religious (and currently reading Dawkins 'God Delusion') but I respect your beliefs. I wonder could god (assuming his/her/their existance) have allowed the possibility of SRS for a reason? Could he/she have intended you to go through it or to give you the choice to do so? Is it wrong to mess with anything? We shave or not, cut our hair, get piercings and tattoos... those are all messing with our natural bodies. We cultivate the land, we breed dogs and horses... we change the world and ourselves all the time. Is it ok to use surgery to remove a tumour that will kill us? Would we be defying Gods will by not dying of the tumour or, is it that he wants us to help ourselves?

Anyway, don't do anything you don't want to do. Only do things when you feel ready.

:hugs:

[John]

O.k.... I gota go cook dinner in a min, so I don't have time to read all the loooong responces, so forgive me if I'm just repeating what's already bean said.

I figure that if there was a directly anti-trans quote in any significant (original) religious texts, we'd have hurd them by now. Anyway, the scriptures where (in my oppinion) writen by people, not 'god', in whichever incarnation the context refers to.

I know what you mean about messing with nature. I folow a rather obscure branch of paganism, and it gave me a little trouble at first, but I figure, hay, I am as I was maid, and I was made transexual. (in other wordes, if the gods didn't want me to be transexual, they'de have given me a Y chromazone.

oh, and here's a hug :hugs:

[Dasein9]

:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:

Heya, Poc The Brave! *strumpet blast!*

Good questions. The bits in the Bible have been covered. Keep in mind that those laws also allow you to sell your daughter into slavery and tell you to kill your neighbour if he's working on the sabbath.

It's not the particular laws, but the whole spiel. (That's a technical philosophical term there.) God loves. God is love. Any sentence that begins "God hates..." is an illogical sentence and is invalid. The Bible and other religious texts pretty much boil down to this: someone divine loves us and wants us to be happy and treat one another well. It's all about love and compassion. And that means you have to have love and compassion for yourself, as well as for everyone else.

God made us. Society and ways of classifying people, we made. It's right there in Genesis, if you want to take it literally -- Adam started naming things; that's classification. So gender, which is just another classification, like biped or mammal, is human-made. So if some human-made classification isn't working for you, then you should absolutely do what you need to do. YOU ARE MORE IMPORTANT AND FAR MORE PRECIOUS THAN ANY RULE OF SOCIETY.

Now, as for the fears of surgery, maybe it's your mind trying to tell you something. Can you conceive of ever being at peace with your body, as a transman? If you can, it's worth the effort. If you find you can't, then surgery could be a kind of safety net.

Fear in the face of something so life-altering is normal and sane. Hesitation is a good idea. If you go through with surgery, or if you don't, at least you will know you really did your best on thinking it through, and are therefore less likely to regret any decisions.

[aethen]

Hi Poc,

Haven't kept up much with the boards lately, so this is late coming.

First, a story: I've known two people, unrelated, born with a congenital condition. Essentially, there was a microscopic seed in their chests, pretty much impossible to detect, which one day woke up and started growing out of control, to the point where in a few weeks they were larger than a fist, with no evidence they were going to stop growing. It's a very aggressive form of cancer. Doctors remove a tumor, and another grows from another "seed" somewhere else.

So my question is, if people are born with this, is it okay for a doctor to remove the cancer? Is it God's will that these people suffer and die? Living in America, I probably have a better idea (sadly, imho) than many others about what Fundamentalist Christians believe, and I can tell you that all but the most strict would say surgery is perfectly acceptable. Judaism frowns on altering the body in any way, but, living in New York, with the second highest concentration of Jewish people in the world, I can safely say that many Jews do not take that prohibition very seriously any more. Just like most Christians think medicine and surgery is okay.

Being trans may not be an immediate threat to a person's life, but it's certainly an indirect threat (one need only look at the suicide statistics to see that). It's also definitely a threat to your mental well being if you don't take whatever steps you, personally, feel are necessary to become the person you were meant to be.

Studies suggest that being trans is congenital, resulting from the environment in the womb. Hare lips and cleft palates are also congenital. I don't think any reasonable person would say it's immoral to fix those. The only difference is that the symptoms of being trans tend to be viewed as mental, since the physical body appears to be "normal" to an outsider.

I wonder if we, as a race, were telepathic, would that would remain the case. If people met, interacted, got to know each other without setting eyes on each other at first, would someone meeting you for the first time physically, having only met you emotionally and intellectually before that, think "Wow, his body is all wrong" or "Her mind is all wrong". I would bet on the former.

Wow... when I get going I really go! So my point is: this isn't vanity. This isn't a nose job, or a face lift. If your brain keeps telling you that your body is broken, then how is it wrong to fix it?

Just a few (a lot?) thoughts,

Aethen

[aethen]

2) I am absolutely terrified of surgery, I'm scared I will die because of the anaesthetic or some complication in surgery. Or not be able to cope with feeling poorly after surgery.
Also, the thought of being artificially put to sleep... and out of control... is horrible.

There are two ways to look at that. One, it's your subconscious trying to keep you from transitioning for some reason. That's a possibility.

That being said, fear of surgery is such a common thing, I don't think you need to look for an underlying reason for it. Just like if you hated flying, and needed to fly to have your surgery done, would that be in indication of not being ready to transition, or simply that you fit alongside the billions of others who hate to fly?

When the time comes, you'll sit down with your surgeon and anesthesiologist and work through your questions and concerns. I'm sure that, eventually, not transitioning become a far scarier, and riskier, proposition than surgery.

~Aethen, again.

[bi_weird]

Oh Poc, here's my two cents on surgery. I had my appendix out a couple of years ago, and it was laughably easy. I was in the hospital less than twenty four hours and recovered amazingly quickly. When I first heard I needed surgery it was like O.O. I was eighteen and they're gonna cut me open?!?! But the anestesia (how do you spell that?!) was like "Whoa tingly....and now I'm awake after the surgery", which left little time to be afraid. The most annoying thing other than a bit of dry heaving was having a dry mouth all night and being allowed only ice chips.
I know that most surgeries are more invasive than an appendectomy, but the thing is that you're young so you're going to recover faster than your parents, and it's actually not as scary as it seems. I'm glad that I had no choice and little warning on that surgery, because now I'm not nearly so scared of the idea. I found it to be like any big step in that after it was over it seemed so much simpler than before it happened.

[Samantha Lough]

Poc I think Everett said it all and I agree with him 100% but here is a Hug :hugs:

[pocoyo]

I read through all these answers again the other day.

Thank you so much everyone. I am so grateful.

You make excellent, intelligent, interesting points.

I have thought of some of them myself (probably not the "intelligent" ones though ha ha! :p) but it's nice to hear other people say them.

I do want to reply to each of you individually but I think that would take me all day! And I have to do some work right now hehe. (Wow.. so many people replied... and with such long and thoughtful answers... thank you!)

So for now... please know that I really appreciate your comments. :D

Thank you :bighug: (((huggg)))

[Kate Simmons]

Forget the hug, I'm giving you a birthday kiss, you cute little fellow, you. Yeah I know it's my birthday but that's why I get the privelage. Love you being here and don't ever leave you cutie patooty.:kiss::^5::battingeyelashes:

[pocoyo]

Awwwwwwwwww.
Yay! I got a kiss off Salandra!! :kiss:
Happy Birthday lovely lady :twirl: :love:!

[Tree GG]

Sorry I'm late. Just saw the thread - I love a good philosophical debate!

Surgery is scary - doctors are just humans that "practice" medicine. There are no guarantees. But there's no guarantee you won't be hit by a bus today which is totally random. At least with surgery you're attempting to achieve a goal, it has purpose. In the big picture, so does the bus, but that's not important here.:p

Losing yourself.....I find that hard to imagine from you Poc. People cannot be lost, only misplaced. As long as you give yourself as much importance as you give to everyone else, you'll do great! Remember that inside every old person is a young person wondering WTF happened! Silly, but the meaning is very appropriate. Who you are is self-proclaimed. You run into trouble when you let outside influences (other people) override your own good sense. Listen to yourself - I'll bet you're usually right.

Religion is a man-made construct. Even the Bible has gone thru numerous editings and translations - who knows what subtle meanings were lost. Spirituality lives in your soul. I was raised Christian but it really never did touch me like the thoughts of Budhism or Native American Spirituality doctrines do. God may be a single being or energy source, but it set into motion a wonderful ecosystem where everything works perfectly when you don't try to define success too rigidly. The cycle of life is immense and minute at the same time. A bacteria's life cycle vs that of a star. As long as there is movement, regeneration and continuance - God's plan is fullfilled. IMO :happy:

I think I've said this before, and if so, I apologize for the duplication. Clear your mind & heart. Imagine the 2 options. #1 you stay as you were born. Express your TGness in alternative ways. OR #2 You proceed with the surgery and express your TGness in a more permanent way. Both options have risks, benefits and drawbacks. But which fills you with more positive emotions. Which gives you an overriding sense of calm and contentment?

Then you'll know what Poc's soul thinks.
:hugs::hugs:

[Lovely Rita]

Hi Pocoyo, I have read many of the posts on this thread and read all the good and encouraging support from your friends. I really do not think I can add much but just wanted to provide you with some of the insights that have helped me as a person who believes in God.

Firstly, I am convinced God loves me as I am. I have absolutely no doubt that he loves me as a cross dresser etc. Here is a wonderful scripture, written by Paul the apostle, from the New Testament that underscores that.

RO 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Knowing how much God loves me heals my soul and demolishes any doubt about it. It blows all that negative stuff to smithereens.

It was also very important to know that my God has both feminine and masculine qualities. The God I believe in created Tigers as well as lillies in the field. Masculine as well as feminine aspects are qualities of His/Her nature. This is the image I have of the God that I know.

Below is a scripture from the book of Genesis that illustrates this point.

GE 1:27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

This speaks to me that God's image is male and female. We all have those qualities as well, but in some of us there is a more dominant side.

This is my opinion.

GAL 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice how Paul writes that we are all sons of God, and not predicating it on whether we are male or female. Son in the sense of heirs. He actually writes that for God there is no difference now.

I cannot see a person becoming who they trully are, as something that would put them out of the reach of God's Amazing Love.

These are just my two cents on the subject, oh and by the way:hugs::love:

[Danielle1960]

God has put us here to learn, about him, about ourselves. Although all churches are well meaning and there doctrine vary a bit. I think it is important to realize you have a good understanding of the bible,and your decision will be thought out. Fasting, and praying when your at a point where you just don't care what the answer is might help too. In the NT, the statement of: (paraphrased) "that if you commitment is hot or cold it is tolerable but if your warm or in the middle it is unacceptable. " I feel this is an issue of God doesn't want us to remain passive in our day to day lives and not learn all that we can. If in the end if your decision is researched and you as sure as you can be then I think God will take that into account. If others wife children are involved you are a standard bearer for them and that is a delicate thing to handle. Of course any (I think) church might tell you otherwise, that it is an anomaly, or demonic related thoughts, but there organizations require the flock to comply with the rules they have set up in order to survive and be viable.
Not sure that helps, but I hope it does. For me I don't think I'll ever do an SRS but transition to that point? May be.
Hugs
Danielle