Guilt put on the SO?

[AmberTG]

I'm guessing that this might be a bit controversial, but with all the related threads that have been on here lately, I wanted to bring this out, and it's just my opinion, other opinions are welcome here, from all the members.
I've been thinking about what we expect from our SOs, I'm speaking from a MTF point of view, can't speak from the FTM side of it, I have no experience there, but I'm sure this could apply there also.
It seems to me that we put a large burden on our SO to accept this part of us, especially if it was unknown in the early part of the relationship. I don't think this applies to those who were upfront from the beginning, that's different.
We expect so much acceptance from our SO about CDing or TG issues, but we tend to forget that she didn't sign on for this. Put yourself in her place for a moment. How would you feel if your wife came up to you one day and told you that she wanted to be a man and started dressing like a man, including the underwear. She cut her hair and wore it man-like and wanted a mastectomy and a penus. Would you, as a CDer, or even as a TG be OK with having a life partner with these issues? Some of us would be OK with it, I'm sure, but how many of you would not. (And, yes, I know lots of women my age fit the description for clothing and hair, but not the intention.)
Finding out that you're SO is a CDer or TG after being with them for some time and not knowing is quite a shock and causes a loss of emotional security, can you blame them if they have a hard time with it?
Some women just don't want to be a part of a relationship that involves CDing or transition, they got involved with a man and that's what they want to be with. I understand that completely.
There may be some good reasons to stay together, kids, finances, shared property, etc, but the CDer should be willing to work out a compromise if they wish to stay together and the SO can accept it at any level. If the SO cannot accept it at any level, then it's time to part ways, as harsh as that may sound. We all know that we are unable to stop doing what we do, many have tried, most have failed, some repeatedly. I could never change who I am, it is deeply part of me.
My own personal experience is that my wife, now ex-wife knew about my CDing before we got married and she was accepting of that part of me. What she was not accepting of was the side effects of my TG issues, the depression that made me hard to live with, the lack of sex from the depression, and from the anti-depressant that I ended up taking after I started seeing the therapist, and the further development of my TG issues, which I had been suppressing. She wanted to be with a real man who could give her the sex and attention that she needs in her life, so she found a boyfriend to do that. I knew that the marriage was over 3 years ago, but didn't want it to end, I still love her. However, for her happiness, we have gone our seperate ways, I can't be the person she needs in her life, and I can't justify holding her back. We are still friends, our relationship is probably better now then it has been in a long time, even though it's different now.
I guess what I'm saying here is, please don't put a guilt trip on your SO just because she struggles with acceptance of your issues, she didn't sign up for that when she got involved with you, unless you told her upfront, as I said before, that's different, she had the choice up front that way. Most of us were not that up-front with our SO, and even for some of us, like me, that were, things change, people change, and situations change. Please keep that in mind when you struggle with your SO's issues with your issues.
Any input or opinions are welcome here.

[Mitzi]

Well said, Amber...

I agree the burden is on us, the CD's who'd not told our SO's up front, to make whatever adjustments are necessary to make our relationships as whole as they can be. We're the ones who brought the potential for disruption, albeit unintentionally (we thought the urge will will no longer exist, once we found the love of our life...), our spouses aren't to blame.

Mitzi

[AmberTG]

Over a hundred views so far and only 1 comment (Thank you, Mitzi), interesting isn't it. I think maybe I touched a nerve or something.

[Kate Simmons]

I think you pretty much covered everything in your OP Amber, so most people probably either agree with you, have nothing to add or both, like myself.:happy:

[Marlena-4now]

Amber,
You are correct in saying it is a hell of a thing to ask our SO's to come to terms with. But I don't think most of us CDers "expect" acceptance , we do, however, desparately hope for acceptance. And I have found , as I think you did also , that it is a moving target. What is Ok today may not be Ok next week. And what we need now is not what we need to express five years from now. I find that I am caught in a catch 22. I ask for acceptance. She does her best to give what she can. Then I am reluctant to actually go through with what was agreed to because I know it will cause her stress and unhappiness. Also, I am scared there may come a backlash when she decides she has just had enough, no matter what she said was OK with her at the time. It's just a BITCH for the both of us some times !

[kerrianna]

I agree that we really do need to see it from their point of view, but shouldn't we always be trying to do that with ANYTHING in our relationships? Like we expect our partners to do too. That's how 2 people make it work.

Obviously this is a big issue, but so are other relationship issues.

People change. Situations change. Relationships take vigilance and work.

Sometimes things are too much to reach an understanding and despite the best intentions and efforts it's time to move on. Every single one of us is in a different situation, and all we can do is try our best and be kind to each other.

There are healthy ways to deal with relationship crisises and not so healthy. Guilt trips, lack of empathy and understanding, selfishness, emotional shutdown are all unhealthy patterns. But sometimes dynamics between two people just work that way, even if they might have been better before.

In your example Amber, if my partner came home and told me those things I would certainly do my best to understand and make it work, but I would keep tabs on my heart to try to know how I really felt day to day and whether it was worth it for me. I could not in all honesty tell you what that answer would be, and anyone who says they can is, IMO, doing themselves a disservice by not giving themselves the freedom to find truth. If the answer is clear that it won't work, then obviously both parties are hurting themselves by pretending they can make it work. But sometimes we surprise ourselves when we find out what we do hold truly dear. There's only one way to find out.

I just want to add that I do think we have had this conversation, or close to it already on this forum. Nothing wrong with bringing it up again, but it might explain why there aren't as many replies yet.

[Marlena-4now]

Although, thank god, the sex is still tanfastic !! ;-)

[crusadergirl]

The borden isn't on anyone theres no one to blame its just a way of life. Guilt thats a waste of time. Move on

[battybattybats]

Of course most of us didn't sign up for it either...

There are many of us who have tried to excise this part of themselves.. all the purges and even the suicides illustrate that in money blood and tombstones. Let us no longer perpetuate the notion that we are bringing this on to ourselves and our partners!

This is a situation we find ourselves in. The best thing to do is definatly to inform a partner before a relationship becomes too serious if we know about it beforehand or as soon as we do afterward. Of course judging at what point you trust someone to confide in them is difficult which is why I did so about a week after the first date.

Even if the CD has been in denial or hiding for years before confessing to their partner, the wrong is only in the not informing! That prevents the partner from making an informed decision which is definately wrong however the crossdresser is not to blame for introducing crossdressing into the relationship! Let us not throw blame on ourselves or accept blame on ourselves any more than is our due either. Neither partner is to blame for this dillemma, there is only an impartial circumstance and choices of various effectiveness and rightness in how we try to cope with that!

[Satrana]

I don't agree for two reasons:

1. I don't believe crossdressing is a big issue in itself, it is made big by people's attitudes and perceptions. Emulating on the other hand is more difficult to appreciate. I think the onus is on the SO to accept that men have the same basic human rights as women and there is nothing wrong with men wearing feminine clothes. It is deeply hypocritical for any SO to deny CDs our right to incorporate feminine qualities into our expression of who we are when they themselves already enjoy that freedom.

However if the CD wants to emulate a woman, the onus is on the CD to understand that creating an alter ego and transforming themselves into another person is not a normal human behaviour and the CD has to contemplate the serious stressful side effects this can have on a relationship. Emulating women may provide CDs with the maximum pleasure, fulfill our wildest dreams and sexual fantasies but this all-consuming focus is potentially damaging.

2. There are many issues that will arise throughout a relationship that were not signed up to at the start. A strong marriage is based on working through these issues, not on giving one partner a "Get out of jail free card". Your love for your partner is tested by such trials, get through them and your relationship is enhanced, your love will be deeper. Or you can avoid the trials, sweep issues under the carpet so as not to threaten the fragility of your relationship. IMHO a sure recipe for a failed relationship.

[battybattybats]

However if the CD wants to emulate a woman, the onus is on the CD to understand that creating an alter ego and transforming themselves into another person is not a normal human behaviour and the CD has to contemplate the serious stressful side effects this can have on a relationship. Emulating women may provide CDs with the maximum pleasure, fulfill our wildest dreams and sexual fantasies but this all-consuming focus is potentially damaging.

Umm.. why isn't it normal human behaviour? It seems pretty common to me. In fact I think it's safe to say that creating an alter ego and transforming themselves into another person is precisely what more humans do than not considering how many people conform to social expectations of who they should be rather than who they are. Every closeted individual, every person who has caved to peer pressure, everyone who has changed their appearance or behaviour to attract a mate, everyone who has done anything to 'fit in' must surely have done this? And even if we are just talking about CD's and TS' here it still seems common enough to be 'normal'.

Just because it isn't considered to be 'normal' in the present modern western judeo-christian polar-gender society doesn't mean it isn't 'normal'. It just means that the majority are wrong.

[Chantelle CD]

This is a very touchy one, and should be handled very carefully.

First i want to say that every situation is as different as there are individuals on this wonderful planet. There are some that only want to dress occasionally, and some that wish to become, i think it is important to know yourself, and communicate your desires to your spouse, and if it goes farther than what they are willing to accept, then a parting is in need.

I also think that there are some of the Cd's out there that have not told there spouses from the start is because they are fighting inside them self so badly, trying to push it away, ashamed of it and themselves, love there partners so deeply, but are driven to express more, omg its such a hard battle to push it away, i wish i can explain it to the SO's out there so you may understand it better, but i cant, i can only try. I have hated myself so much for this, and yes even to commit the S word!!! Before i met my wife now, i hadn't even known it was called cross dressing, I just let chantelle come out on rare occasions and hated myself afterwords. She helped me buy my first real clothing, and i blew up inside, she accepted me so i thought, so Meany emotions and feelings came out in me, way to overwhelming to express, but i found a happiness i never felt before, and it was because of her!!! it over took me and i wanted more and more, and she got scared and hard to run away. I couldn't help myself, i was blinded to how she was feeling, because the feelings that were awoken inside we so overwhelming. but when she left <omg I'm crying writing this> ( deep breath ) when she left i broke apart at the seams, hit the lowest i had ever hit in my life, this thing that i was fighting for so long killed the love i had always dreamed of, and now it is gone!!! And the S word came to mind again, i could never do it, but wanting to be taken home <heaven if you will call it> is what i wanted then. Our love was to strong to hold us apart and after 4 months apart she came back, and knew i couldn't stop, even though all upset i had thrown every thing we had gotten away. i tried my hardest to push it away for as long as i could, and it couldn't, god i hated that!!! <sniff> aheeem and what did she do, she got me a new bra!! omg i love this woman so much!!! ohh boy OK she knows now that i love the man in me as well, and if i was to want to be only a woman, she would have gone forever, she is not a lesbian, she wants a man, i can understand that, and can understand any woman that leaves a person under those circumstances. But to not allow one to pass a bit of time now and then, for one to dress as they will, express themselves that moment as they will, i do not understand, it is only a bit of time now and then, we get changed and poof, we are us again, but ladies <mean SO's> we come back with such a deeper appreciation of you!! I bet a good number of us CD's hold woman on a pedestal, goddess, so beautiful, so so nurturing and soft, givers of life to behold and respect!!! This is a plus you all have as accepting your CD mates i guess. A lot of woman want the manly man, only to be hurt by them over and over, the manly man doesn't see the whole picture, has cut himself off of some very powerful energy's in existence, feminine energy's, i think yall readers know where I'm going with this.

If my wife wanted to pass some time FTM dressing, that would be totally OK with me, if she wanted to become a male, have a mastectomy, only dress as a man, become one, i couldn't be with her, i am not gay, if i was then it would be OK with me, but if she wanted to she could dress it when she wanted to, where she wanted to, and how she wanted to at any moment, cause i know, she can take all the dress up clothing off, and be the person i love!! If that was her choice, i would never stop loving her, who she is inside will never go away, i would just have a new friend now. But were only talking moments here, moments are here and then there gone forever, and only left with memories, and the energy we take back home with us. Its the now thats important.

To the ones that want the change and are going threw it, i salute you for it, i admire your courage, to your SO's I'm sorry for the man you lost, but congratulate you on the new friend you have gained, i cant even imagine the struggles this would entail, i cant say a lot about it, other than wow it must be a hard thing !!

Sorry i rambled on with this one friends

Enjoy your moments

Love yall Chantelle

[Satrana]

Umm.. why isn't it normal human behaviour? It seems pretty common to me. In fact I think it's safe to say that creating an alter ego and transforming themselves into another person is precisely what more humans do than not considering how many people conform to social expectations of who they should be rather than who they are. Every closeted individual, every person who has caved to peer pressure, everyone who has changed their appearance or behaviour to attract a mate, everyone who has done anything to 'fit in' must surely have done this? And even if we are just talking about CD's and TS' here it still seems common enough to be 'normal'.

Just because it isn't considered to be 'normal' in the present modern western judeo-christian polar-gender society doesn't mean it isn't 'normal'. It just means that the majority are wrong.


I agree that we all pretend that we are something else, this is part of the social mask everyone puts on. In fact I think this is a major source of unhappiness in our lives and if everyone could freely express our true selves then the happiness quota would skyrocket.

I understand what you mean by normal, but I was using the word in the pretext of how others see this mode of behavior not in an ethical basis. When emulating a woman CDs go well beyond wearing social masks. Emulation often involves the creation is a distinct personality, with new name and mannerisms, it often involves trying to fool others. It scares people and often leads to major confusion with sexuality. But potentially the most damaging thing is that emulation is hot wired directly into our deepest dreams and desires which we have been secretly harboring for all our lives and thus can easily become all consuming.

Even worse CDs can lose sight of what is reality and what is fantasy. We all know what happens to the kid who fantasizes about being Superman and jumps out the window expecting to fly.

Fulfilling your desires through emulation is not wrong and I don't take any cues from society when ethically defining normal either. But if you do want to emulate then you are asking a lot from everyone else who wish to remain mainstream, to even consider accepting what you are. We are all judgmental to some degree or another, even the most liberal draw the line somewhere. Would you want to live with somebody who spent more time in their own private fantasy land than living in reality with you?

I think the CD community should wake up to the fact that no matter how exceptionally gratifying emulation is, no matter how it appears to be the "answer", it is in reality pure escapism that is rooted in our own lifelong held dreams and desires. It satisfies temporary needs which lets us balance our lives with the constant pressure to be men. This description obviously exempts TS and full time TG who actually want to be women.

[Marla S]

I don't agree for two reasons:

1. I don't believe crossdressing is a big issue in itself, it is made big by people's attitudes and perceptions. Emulating on the other hand is more difficult to appreciate. I think the onus is on the SO to accept that men have the same basic human rights as women and there is nothing wrong with men wearing feminine clothes. It is deeply hypocritical for any SO to deny CDs our right to incorporate feminine qualities into our expression of who we are when they themselves already enjoy that freedom.

However if the CD wants to emulate a woman, the onus is on the CD to understand that creating an alter ego and transforming themselves into another person is not a normal human behaviour and the CD has to contemplate the serious stressful side effects this can have on a relationship. Emulating women may provide CDs with the maximum pleasure, fulfill our wildest dreams and sexual fantasies but this all-consuming focus is potentially damaging.

2. There are many issues that will arise throughout a relationship that were not signed up to at the start. A strong marriage is based on working through these issues, not on giving one partner a "Get out of jail free card". Your love for your partner is tested by such trials, get through them and your relationship is enhanced, your love will be deeper. Or you can avoid the trials, sweep issues under the carpet so as not to threaten the fragility of your relationship. IMHO a sure recipe for a failed relationship.



I think the CD community should wake up to the fact that no matter how exceptionally gratifying emulation is, no matter how it appears to be the "answer", it is in reality pure escapism that is rooted in our own lifelong held dreams and desires. It satisfies temporary needs which lets us balance our lives with the constant pressure to be men. This description obviously exempts TS and full time TG who actually want to be women.

Well and profound said. :thumbsup: Nothing else to add.

[Kerry Owens]

Folks this is a awesome thread...here again the discussion is seriously informative and thoughtful. Thank you.

[TxKimberly]

I couldn't agree more. We have no right to sit back and expect, or even worse, demand, that our wives come to terms with it and accept it.
True, in a perfect world this is harmless fun and no one would be hurt or upset by our activities. Bad news though, this is not a perfect world and our wives and children have a very real risk of being outcast and otherwise hurt should our CDing become known to others. So yes, CDing DOES, or can, hurt people and it is not unreasonable for for a woman to be upset about it - it's sad but true.
I saw that someone stated something along the lines of none of us chose this life. This is very true and a good point - we CDers did not choose to be what we are. Most of us have suffered depression, shame, and guilt for what we are - how can we possibly expect the women in our lives to take it any better than we ourselves did?

[Kerry Owens]

Outcaste? Made pariah by merely crossdressing? I would see that happening as it probably did in the case of BTK's(in Wichata, KS) where he had murdered folks so horribly. His wife literally had to go into hiding with from the media.
I know, in some places (like the phelpses church) yes, it could happen. Still most of the country has done a lot of learning, things have come a long way from when Mr. Hoover was a crossdresser.

[marie354]

I agree totally, but I think that this should apply to CD's that have been up-front with their SO's from the giddy-go as well. Even if they are fully accepted and/or fully participate.

It's actually a shared burden on both sides. Especially if you're trying to keep it a secret from anyone else. Knowing when to hold 'em and knowing when to fold 'em is key in that case.
:hugs:

[AmberTG]

Thank you all for the replies so far! This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to generate with this thread. This subject may be the most important aspect of cross dressing, how it might affect others around you. I like the distinction between incorporating items into daily life and emulating a lifestyle. I hadn't really thought of it that way before, see I can still learn something new!
As far as SO acceptance goes, I see 3 broad catagorys for the CDer. The person who was upfront from the beginning or close to it, the person who was hidden in the beginning, for any number of reasons, (which is a whole discussion by itself) and tried to stay hidden (some are more successful than others), and people like me who were upfront about the CDing, but had lurking TG issues that were hidden. I think people in my catagory are the ones who have the roughest time in a relationship, usually the TG issue is a deal breaker with even more open minded women. They didn't sign up to be with another woman. A woman would have to be at least a bit BI in order to be happy with that.
I tend to think that emulating tends to cross over the line for many women, it goes a bit too much down the road toward the TG spectrum and can be perceived as a threat to the marriage. That's where communication is so important. The SO needs to know that she hasn't lost "her man" to the CDing.
I've seen some really good and thought provoking thoughts and opinions so far and, again, thanks for the replys.
I apologize if this is just rehashing things that have already been gone over before, I must have missed those discussions in my reading.
I am curious to see what the boys think about this from their side of the fence, I'd bet they've had to deal with this issue also with their SOs.

[Tree GG]

It was put to me as, "I'm going to do this". I truly believe at the time, he had no idea I would have as many issues as I did. That may be one of his more masculine traits...inability to empathize with another. He's been forced to develop those skills in the past year :D

Yes, I felt tremendous pressure from him that I was to accept this, no questions asked. It never occurred to him that I had no idea what it was, what it meant, etc. And I really brought that point home and was as honest as I could be - this is not my fantasy, never was. He was very hurt and disappointed.

As said earlier, things change over time...that's just life. This was just a biggie, IMO. Those who say it is no big deal aren't respecting others' right to NOT have TG issues.

We're still learning. The biggest lesson we've learned that keeps things on an even keel is to communicate expectations very clearly & specifically so as to avoid misunderstandings whenever possible.

Of course, most SO's I know do live with the continual background noise of "what next"? What if expressing CDing turns into TS? It's definitely a dynamic relationship now where you just hope & pray you're not heading full steam to a place you can't live with. But then, maybe you can live with it. I don't think you can truly know until you get there, and you can't get there unless you try. Either way, one day at a time, and today is most important.

[sobe1ove GG]

I'm glad this topic was brought up. I wholly agree with the original poster.

I am a very accepting SO, but there are some things that I just can't deal with. I don't mind him dressing in ladies clothing. I think it should be okay for men to do that. And I think it IS okay for them to do that as far as society goes. It's not like you'll be stoned in the town square.

What I DO have a problem with is the gender issues that my guy has. I'm not bi or a lesbian, so I'm not going to be attracted to that half of him. Attraction is a very important aspect of a relationship. I have a hard time supporting him trying to BE a woman part time. You know, the whole wig and breast forms and voice changing compact discs. I don't like that he wants to go out and pretend he's someone he's not (a natural woman) and someone I don't particularly like. He's changing who I know. And the thing I'm most afraid of is that the guy version of him will change during his exploration. That his guy version will become more effeminate or androgynous or lady-like. And that's not okay because that means that the guy I fell in love with is no where. He can never go back to who he was.

Frankly, I like sensitive men who aren't afraid to like things that stereotypically only girls like. Like pink for example. I DON'T like men who wear frilly things or are prancy or wear makeup. I can't change that. It's unfortunate that he's bringing things into the relationship that make me less attracted to him.

As I said in the beginning, there is nothing wrong with crossdressing. I don't think it is evil. BUT, I'm not so sure that it fits in with what I want in a relationship. I don't want to be a 'crossdressing couple.' I don't want to always be referred to as the GG or SO. That's sad. I definitely don't want to be the couple that has all of these CD couples as friends and hangs out in the CD scene. That has nothing against any of you all, and I totally understand all of you doing stuff like that, but that is not something I want for my life.

I think that the life aspirations and goals of a CD's SO is very important and introducing this change encroaches on those things. Now, I'm more than willing to alter my aspirations and goals for him, but not COMPLETELY. I still want some of what I aspire to. And that involves how my future is as far as my relationship.

::EDIT:: And the same goes for him. He shouldn't have to change all of his aspirations and goals either, but he should be willing to do it some, because that's what I'm doing for him. ::END EDIT::

Sobe

[Chantelle CD]

I totally agree with sobe1ove GG and TreeGG

Tree said <sorry i dont understand quoting yet lol


It was put to me as, "I'm going to do this". I truly believe at the time, he had no idea I would have as many issues as I did. That may be one of his more masculine traits...inability to empathize with another. He's been forced to develop those skills in the past year

hmmm i think i did!!

I dont think its so much a male trait as a selfish human trait, for i have had in past relations the same kind of trait thrown at me but from woman, just directed in other ways, but still is totally an unfair way to communicate, and does totally show a lac of understanding your spouses feelings.

To have it thrown in your face and say "I'm going to do this" would be a hard way to accept it, TreeGG you are very special lady indeed!!! When i told my SO about it, i also said that i wanted to try to give it up again, and when she wanted to see it, and helped me do it farther than i ever did before, wholly smokes, the feelings and power of female energy's <feelings> was overwhelming, i can totally see how one can become over powered by this, and want to become female for ever, woman are so incredible, but so are men!! The feelings can over power so much so, that you get so engrossed in it, u can even feel the female sex drive!! and that is where the CD has to be careful, i have tried playing with that, and masturbation, and because my male side loves only woman that way, the feelings of hating my cd'ing came back again, and had to change right after satisfaction!!! I think if you are a BI male of gay male, and you start cd'ing it would be very hard to want to go back to being male. I would say, watch for signs of this, watch if his sexual desires for you change, if he starts to hate being a man, does he want balance or not, you can see all that in his actions. I do know for me, the farther i go into dressing, the stronger my desires to do it again get, but reality is i am a man, god made me one, i have a man body, a man face, and arms, and a nose i can not hide, i am so tall, i know i can never pass as a woman. We are all an equal balance of female and male, <yin/yang> woman express there male side and is totally accepted, but a male is not accepted expressing his female side, and this is the root of our <or should i say my> denial of self!!


I think the CD community should wake up to the fact that no matter how exceptionally gratifying emulation is, no matter how it appears to be the "answer", it is in reality pure escapism that is rooted in our own lifelong held dreams and desires. It satisfies temporary needs which lets us balance our lives with the constant pressure to be men. This description obviously exempts TS and full time TG who actually want to be women.

I dont myself like the word "emulation" i find cross dressing opening up what is there and letting it out, not a form of copying a woman, and yes CD'ing is an escape from the pressure of being a man, the female feelings<energy> are so nurturing, how can they not comfort you!! and help you release the stress of a really hard day!! The SO helps with that if she isn't engrossed in her issues, and dont need to dress to escape from it, but these days the female works just as hard as the men, and there job is just as if not more stressful, and is fighting her own battles from this. I dont see how a TS and or a full time TG who actually want to be a woman are exempt to this, to me they are the ones that just took it to the limit, that is all.

I am just trying to explain my views on the subject, not trying to say all CD'ing is this way, and i dont know enough about TS/TG to help really there, but i do know that at one point, i could see that door in front of me, and because i love the man i am, chose to go threw a different one, and my lovely SO just being the soul she is, without saying a word, helped me close it!!

You are not simply what you are at any one moment, but for that moment only, there are lots of moments in life, <BLINK> and you become angry at something, this post maybe? hehe doesn't make you an angry person does it?

[Caroline]

Umm.. why isn't it normal human behaviour? It seems pretty common to me. In fact I think it's safe to say that creating an alter ego and transforming themselves into another person is precisely what more humans do than not considering how many people conform to social expectations of who they should be rather than who they are. Every closeted individual, every person who has caved to peer pressure, everyone who has changed their appearance or behaviour to attract a mate, everyone who has done anything to 'fit in' must surely have done this? And even if we are just talking about CD's and TS' here it still seems common enough to be 'normal'.

Just because it isn't considered to be 'normal' in the present modern western judeo-christian polar-gender society doesn't mean it isn't 'normal'. It just means that the majority are wrong.

Brilliant, Batty, and absolutely true to boot, though you missed some examples, such as those who boast about their abilities (real or imagined) thinking they can impress others, those who lie about themselves to exploit others - to name but two. Both of these types are presenting themselves as a different persona from their 'real' one.

[Caroline]

Sobe, I feel for you, I do.

From your comments that I've read, it appears to me that you found out about your husband's CDing after you were committed to one another, and that the CDing brought a dimension into the relationship which you didn't want In fact, if truth be told, wouldn't have started a relationship with your partner if you had known about his CDing from the beginning. You are quite right to feel that way and, if my surmise about when you discovered the 'secret' CDing is correct, then you legitimately feel let down, hurt, and rather disappointed, to say the least. I also think that you have probably done a very good job of trying to cope with what is, undoubtedly, an unwelcome and unexpected situation to find yourself in. But whilst change is a fact of life, under these circumstances, I think your partner owes you a greater willingness to respect your needs than he appears to have done so far.

All the best to you.

[DeeInGeorgia]

I am one who brought up my crossdressing to my wife after quite a few years of marriage. We have both discussed how we are not the people we met and fell in love with. I am a CDer. She has a problem with food. She gave me a hint of her problem at an engaged encounter. After we got married, she got burned out on her profession, an occupational therapist, got depressed, quit working, and started gaining weight, a lot of weight.

If my wife weighed when we met what she weighs now, I would not have dated her, as I have a problem with women that weigh over 200 lbs.

Complicatios from her weight and other problems she has have led to very limited physical contact, which really increased my need to crossdress. We both have problems that affect each other. We both work to help each other. So we so far stay together.

But it sure is hard sometimes.

Dee

[Satrana]

He's changing who I know. And the thing I'm most afraid of is that the guy version of him will change during his exploration. That his guy version will become more effeminate or androgynous or lady-like. And that's not okay because that means that the guy I fell in love with is no where. He can never go back to who he was.



The crutch is the normal guy you know never was the real him, it was an artificial creation CDs use to fit into society. Understandably you don't want him to change, you want him to continue acting as a normal guy, continue the pretense.

Here is the catch - can you be happy asking him to remain acting as a normal guy when that is not who he truly is and he will be unhappy having to put up with the pretense? You want him to separate and confine the feminine side from his everyday persona so that he has a dual personality. This is the approach that CDs themselves choose so that they can hide from stigmatization, but most CDs find this approach dissatisfying and makes them unhappy which is why they want to emerge from the closet.

Another thought to ponder is how do you see your partner - as an individual person or as a male mate? I think how you perceive the role your partner plays in your life affects how much you can accept his feminine side. If it is his maleness that you desire most to compliment your femininity then crossdressing is a tough sell. But if you see your partner more as a soul-mate to walk hand in hand through life's trials then crossdressing (after an initial adjustment to gender perception) can be accommodated.


And the same goes for him. He shouldn't have to change all of his aspirations and goals either, but he should be willing to do it some, because that's what I'm doing for him
Most crossdressers actually do make major concessions without their SOs even asking for it. We have a large store of images, fantasies, things we want to do, a lifetime's backlog of dreams to be enacted. But we hold back most of these so as not to overwhelm our SOs and scare them away. What SOs see in their CD partners is probably only 10% of what they really want to do. But this is another secret kept hidden away so SOs remain unaware of just how much sacrifice is actually taking place but never disclosed.

[Dixie]

It may be a repeat topic, but I think we have a few new responses. I really have nothing to add, so I'll just shutup now:D:drink:

[Chantelle CD]

Most cross dressers actually do make major concessions without their SOs even asking for it. We have a large store of images, fantasies, things we want to do, a lifetime's backlog of dreams to be enacted. But we hold back most of these so as not to overwhelm our SOs and scare them away. What SOs see in their CD partners is probably only 10% of what they really want to do. But this is another secret kept hidden away so SOs remain unaware of just how much sacrifice is actually taking place but never disclosed.

<GULP> Satrana, i think you just freaked out every SO out there!!!!

I think it is most important that the CD communicate exactly what his wishes are from his X-dressing, how far he wants to go with it, how much of his manly self he wants to throw away, my self i want to throw away none of it, and my SO knows this, so her fear has all but gone away, It is important to tell them honestly, what you want!! from it, they have a total right to know everything!!! If you are hiding anything, they will sense it and feel fear and be afraid, may i ask you fellow CD's, do you really want your LOVED ONE to have fear? Be afraid???? Be honest with them and tell them what you want from this life, and out of respect for them as a person. If its not what they want, dont you really out of love for them, want them to be happy????? If you throw away your manly side, she will not be happy!!! when 2 are in love and connected at the heart, any deception will be sensed. Love and respect go hand in hand.

A word of caution, about throwing away your manly side... Male and female is inside all of us, men and woman. There are CD TG and TS both male and female versions because of this fact <yin/yang>. If you are a man wanting to be a woman, and you are more manly, you will be depressed, because you have imbalance, until you change and become more womanly, and now you have become more female, and tossed away your male side, you will become depressed again, and again because you have imbalance. This goes the same way FTM. If you were a man, and now are female 24/7 its important to ballance your male side as a GG woman would to have her balance. Food for thought :love:

Chantelle

[Satrana]

<GULP> Satrana, i think you just freaked out every SO out there!!!!


Maybe.....but it is better that SOs know about these things. There are still matters which the CD community is timid to admit to. Spending a lifetime in the closet has it's consequences, it affects who we are and who we will become. This should really be another thread to discuss the damage done to us by being forced to hide away in the dark seclusion of our inner minds, learning to get by in society by projecting a falsehood that we are "normal" guys. The outcome of this seclusion is not always pretty and we need to openly acknowledge that so we can deal with it.

[Chantelle CD]

Maybe.....but it is better that SOs know about these things. There are still matters which the CD community is timid to admit to. Spending a lifetime in the closet has it's consequences, it affects who we are and who we will become. This should really be another thread to discuss the damage done to us by being forced to hide away in the dark seclusion of our inner minds, learning to get by in society by projecting a falsehood that we are "normal" guys. The outcome of this seclusion is not always pretty and we need to openly acknowledge that so we can deal with it.

Yes i would love a thread about the pain we all went threw over this part of our being, it was hell, and still fight it, every time i have to run and hide, cutting myself off from the world around me, how can i find connection to this universe if i have something to hide to everyone that i am trying to connect to!!

I just think that there is a sure safe soul that we can open up to, and that is our SO's if we cant open up totally to her, who can we open up to???

[Tree GG]

...

Here is the catch - can you be happy asking him to remain acting as a normal guy when that is not who he truly is and he will be unhappy having to put up with the pretense? ....

Speaking of CD, not TS wanting to transition, absolutely I feel comfortable expecting, asking & receiving "normal guy" time. Not that I want to cause him pain or discomfort, but as you say, he may have constructed the male personna to fit into society, but that's the personna he sold me. That's what I know and makes me comfortable/happy.

So now he finds is increasingly important to let the buried personna be expressed - call if femme or whatever. OK, I can appreciate it as a need, not just a whim (which incidentally, he has said he still isn't 100% sure about the need/desire levels), and am willing to not judge, participate and assist when appropriate. He is perfectly happy/willing to ask me to accept the "other" version of himself.

Example: Went to Be-All together. He dressed from Thurs evening to Sun AM. We really had a good time - everyone was so friendly & happy. Sun AM, however, "he" walked out of the bathroom and it was a very pleasing sight for me. There was that cute guy I knew & loved, and it was good....comfortable. I accepted 100% Darlene for 2+ days without complaint or criticism for his comfort. It's only fair that I receive the same consideration in return from time to time. Otherwise, no-one is getting anything they want/need and it'd be time to move on. :(

[sobe1ove GG]

Speaking of CD, not TS wanting to transition, absolutely I feel comfortable expecting, asking & receiving "normal guy" time. Not that I want to cause him pain or discomfort, but as you say, he may have constructed the male personna to fit into society, but that's the personna he sold me. That's what I know and makes me comfortable/happy.

So now he finds is increasingly important to let the buried personna be expressed - call if femme or whatever. OK, I can appreciate it as a need, not just a whim (which incidentally, he has said he still isn't 100% sure about the need/desire levels), and am willing to not judge, participate and assist when appropriate. He is perfectly happy/willing to ask me to accept the "other" version of himself.

Example: Went to Be-All together. He dressed from Thurs evening to Sun AM. We really had a good time - everyone was so friendly & happy. Sun AM, however, "he" walked out of the bathroom and it was a very pleasing sight for me. There was that cute guy I knew & loved, and it was good....comfortable. I accepted 100% Darlene for 2+ days without complaint or criticism for his comfort. It's only fair that I receive the same consideration in return from time to time. Otherwise, no-one is getting anything they want/need and it'd be time to move on. :(

Tree hit the nail on the head! Exactly.

[Leah B]

I think your partner owes you a greater willingness to respect your needs than he appears to have done so far.

All the best to you.

Your evaluation of our relationship seems premature given how little has been said. She didn't even say anywhere that I wasn't repecting her needs...



It's unfortunate that he's bringing things into the relationship that make me less attracted to him.

I'm not really bringing anything into the relationship because this stuff is part of who I am. I'm bringing me into the relationship.


I don't want to be a 'crossdressing couple.'

Unfortunately, that's what we are. As for all that implies? That's up to us. I'm not asking for us to be friends with a bunch of CD couples. I'd like that, but you don't, and we don't have to, so we won't. As for the CD scene, you're not really comfortable with Leah going out at all, so this makes sense.


I still want some of what I aspire to.

And you'll have it. I've always been girly in some ways, and much of it you have liked (some if it you haven't). I've also been masculine without putting on an act. I like being the guy in the relationship, and in general. I'd also like enjoying the fem role sometimes. In the context of this relationship, however, it's entirely optional. I'm not asking you to sacrifice everything. My beard sometimes? Yes. The occasional prancy thing? I was already prancy well before CDing ever came up. Frilly stuff? If I thought I could pull it off, I would have done it. You like my ballet flats in guy mode right? I GOT style babe. Count on me being dapper. COUNT on it.


Most crossdressers actually do make major concessions without their SOs even asking for it. We have a large store of images, fantasies, things we want to do, a lifetime's backlog of dreams to be enacted.

Absolutely true. I wouldn't say the number for me is 10%, but there's a lot I'm conceding. Yeah, I want to be the bride. Who the hell wouldn't? Seriously. Even non-cd guys know the bride's got the cherry gig. I'd never asked to BE the bride though (and I never will). I don't think it's fair that guys cant be the bride, mind you, but I know this battle ain't worth fighting ;)

[aj_gg]

Most crossdressers actually do make major concessions without their SOs even asking for it. We have a large store of images, fantasies, things we want to do, a lifetime's backlog of dreams to be enacted. But we hold back most of these so as not to overwhelm our SOs and scare them away. What SOs see in their CD partners is probably only 10% of what they really want to do. But this is another secret kept hidden away so SOs remain unaware of just how much sacrifice is actually taking place but never disclosed.

That's very true, but great communication helps to give you the ability to understand and help with such dreams.

Nathan/Natasha (who really needs to come back here sometime but hooray gets his degree on Friday) and I talk "constantly." Talking like we do is the only way I got through the pink fog and helped to save our relationship. I may not know about all his fantasies, but I want to, that will come from talking. Also from our talking, I know he doesn't have that backlog of images of what he wants to look like, he has actual photos that he's proud of.

The 10% you referred to is also true, but circumstancal at this moment. His family knows but they don't want him to be lounging around the house enfemme. At home he can only be 0-10% femme and get away with it. This weekend he and I had a couple of good adventures with him partially enfemme and he was probably at about 25-75% femme and it was the happiest I've seen him for a while. I think how much is shared relates how femme one can be.

[KatieC]

I think it is most important that the CD communicate exactly what his wishes are from his X-dressing, how far he wants to go with it, how much of his manly self he wants to throw away . . .
I don't disagree with this at all, in theory. The difficulty when theory meets practice is that he may not know what his wishes are, or if he thinks he knows, the wishes/desires may evolve over time.

And it should go without saying that the communications of wishes or expectations should go both ways.

-KatieC

[lisa92268]

I love this tread. Thank you all for sharing. It certainly helps me with what i am currently going through.

Love,
Lisa

[Caroline]

Originally Posted by Caroline...
I think your partner owes you a greater willingness to respect your needs than he appears to have done so far...


Your evaluation of our relationship seems premature given how little has been said. She didn't even say anywhere that I wasn't repecting her needs...


So are you saying that you told Sobe of your CDing before she became committed to you?

If not, then I hardly think that my evaluation is incorrect, especially in view of many of Sobe's comments in this and other threads.

[Satrana]

Speaking of CD, not TS wanting to transition, absolutely I feel comfortable expecting, asking & receiving "normal guy" time. Not that I want to cause him pain or discomfort, but as you say, he may have constructed the male personna to fit into society, but that's the personna he sold me. That's what I know and makes me comfortable/happy.

So now he finds is increasingly important to let the buried personna be expressed - call if femme or whatever. OK, I can appreciate it as a need, not just a whim (which incidentally, he has said he still isn't 100% sure about the need/desire levels), and am willing to not judge, participate and assist when appropriate. He is perfectly happy/willing to ask me to accept the "other" version of himself.

Example: Went to Be-All together. He dressed from Thurs evening to Sun AM. We really had a good time - everyone was so friendly & happy. Sun AM, however, "he" walked out of the bathroom and it was a very pleasing sight for me. There was that cute guy I knew & loved, and it was good....comfortable. I accepted 100% Darlene for 2+ days without complaint or criticism for his comfort. It's only fair that I receive the same consideration in return from time to time. Otherwise, no-one is getting anything they want/need and it'd be time to move on. :(

Understand where you are coming from and it is up to each to find the right balance that works. However, I don't entirely agree with your idea that is ok asking for normal guy time because of one simple reason - you now know this to be false, a pretense for your behalf. I don't believe it is right to ask someone to continue behaving in a manner that you know to be false just because that was the one initially sold to you. There has to be a recognition of the actual reality and progression made to remove the falseness from the relationship. If your hubby really has no problems with presenting himself as a normal guy then it may be a non-issue but that still does not make it right.

We all change over time, we are all capable of adapting to change. You are not the same person that you presented to your husband when you first met. He has no "right" to expect you to continually present a reflection of yourself that is no longer who you are now.

Your husband wronged you by not revealing his true self when you first met and selling you a lie. But you are wronging him if you ask him to continue being something he never was. Two wrongs do not make a right. Your happiness should never be at the expense of someone's else's happiness.

There should always be consideration that you both lose if a situation is created where one side believes that they are more victimized, that they have made the larger sacrifice, that their side of the bargain is less fair than the other. The only win-win situation happens when both are satisfied that their grievances and needs are fully understood and taken into account and the agreement minimizes discontentment for both. It should never be a statement of rights and fairness quotas.

PS. these are general statements not comments on your own relationship since you seem to be doing well in finding the right balance that works for you two.:hugs:

[Tree GG]

I get the impression you are strongly transexual - wishing to live in femme mode with no interest in the guy thing. My husband says he still likes being a guy, doing guy things, so I'm not really asking him for a compromise of his soul, IMO. Should that change, we'd both have to re-examine the situation.

But I still do have to agree that there is alot of guilt on the SO's part (whether self-induced or by the CDers behavior) when they don't jump on the CD bandwagon with both feet and banners flying. I can't imagine most spouses enjoy inflicting pain. (I have learned that there is a contigant out there that does, but I don't even want to know :devil:)

[Leah B]

So are you saying that you told Sobe of your CDing before she became committed to you?

If not, then I hardly think that my evaluation is incorrect, especially in view of many of Sobe's comments in this and other threads.

I'm sorry. You were right. I didn't realize that you had a better understanding of my relationship than I do. A few posts online DOES qualify you as our therapist.

Seriously, go away. Neither Sobe nor I appreciates what you have to say about us.

[Leah B]

A bit of future advice: It works out better if you hear BOTH sides of the story first. You can't just listen to one person talk about the relationship and assume you know what's up.

[Kerry Owens]

Sharing is also communication and honesty and in every relationship if you both care those are the priority. Telling the partner where your feelings are, and listening to him/her reactions and you both are thinking.
Deception does not work, not if you want a long term relationship. Well, not one that doesn't leave you feeling severely messed over from lies. Simple fact is it's the stitch in time saves nine syndrome, telling the truth saves you
tremendous trouble. In these times and days, I cannot imagine anyone who can point a finger at someone(remember there are 4 more fingers pointing back to oneself) about crossdressing.
Maybe I am naif, but Lawren and I do talk, and keep the communication open. There are so many things when I don't understand I can ask Lawren and he's patient to answer. Asking doesn't hurt, listening and learning isn't impossible. But to ignore a problem and pretend it doesn't exist is a fatal flaw.

[Caroline]

I'm sorry. You were right. I didn't realize that you had a better understanding of my relationship than I do. A few posts online DOES qualify you as our therapist.

Seriously, go away. Neither Sobe nor I appreciates what you have to say about us.

Then neither of you should say things that mislead others in a public forum by making statements about your relationship that are not true and, in Sobe's case at least, invite comment.

[Caroline]

A bit of future advice: It works out better if you hear BOTH sides of the story first. You can't just listen to one person talk about the relationship and assume you know what's up.

Now's your chance: did you tell Sobe about your CDing before she became committed to you?

[sobe1ove GG]

Now's your chance: did you tell Sobe about your CDing before she became committed to you?

Come on, guys. Let's get back to the thread at hand.

[kerrianna]

Come on, guys. Let's get back to the thread at hand.

Yes, could you please?

Thanks.

This is a bit of a hot topic, so let's keep it civil and respectful folks. It's a good thread and a good opportunity to discuss a very difficult subject.

Every relationship is unique, so it's interesting to see how others deal with this in their lives.