Attraction in Relationships

[sobe1ove GG]

I see a lot of things on this message board from cross dressers who say that this is who they are, it's natural, get over it. Of course, I'm paraphrasing, but it seems like a lot of CDers can't understand why a GG SO would have a problem with it. I'd like to shed a little light.

A lot of what a relationship is comes from attraction. You are attracted to your partner in various ways. You are attracted to their personality, their aspirations and goals, how they treat you. You are also attracted to how they look and act.

When we, all of us, get in a relationship, our decision to be with someone is largely based on those attractions. If cross dressing is introduced years after the start of a relationship, attraction can be the biggest issue.

Essentially, the cross dresser is introducing a lot of new behavior and appearances. Where we were attracted to your rough appearance, you are now clean and hair free. Where we were attracted to your strength, you are now much more feminine and light.

A lot of attraction also comes from how you, all of us, look. I, for example, like men. I don't find women attractive. I'm not bi or gay. This can be a problem. Although you as cross dressers ARE men, when you are presenting as women, SOs like me have a hard time finding you attractive. We may even be repulsed. It isn't because you're a crossdresser, but because we just don't like girls.

Another thing, for me and others, is that I don't like people (romantically) who are prissy. I am not attracted to people who like frilly things and like to prance and wear heals and makeup. Even if you are obviously a guy, and aren't trying to be a woman, this is still unattractive.

Yes, there are some ladies who like this. These are then the relationships with the most acceptance. But, if you are with a GG SO who is straight and likes her man to be at least somewhat manly, then there will be a problem.

A lot of us GGs don't actually have a problem with cross dressers. We don't hate you or think what you are doing is wrong. It's all about the attraction factor. By introducing cross dressing into the relationship, you are taking away some of her attraction to you. And where a big problem comes in is if you start to change how even your man side looks. If you start thinning your eyebrows, you will look MUCH more feminine, and this will always be the case because it's not like you can take off or put on new eyebrows on a whim. In these situations we look at you and see the feminine side even when you aren't wearing a dress. Then it's like a part of you is unattractive all of the time.

Now, this may change over time. She may become attracted to that female part of you. In the meantime, you maybe might understand where she's coming from and cut her a bit of slack.

Also, this attraction thing can happen with other changes. For example, I don't really like the hip hop culture of baggy jeans and bad English and attitudes. If my guy started being like that, I'd have a problem because I think it's unattractive.

Hopefully I've shed some light on where us as GG SOs are coming from.

Sobe

[rose382832]

very well spoken. that is why my so and i came to an agreement when we started this all off. at least one day a week i am all male( most weeks more cause just too tired after work to bother.) and one day a week there is nothing but snuggle time. but i can save up she time, by being a guy more than one day a week.( im now up to about three years straight but wont ever cash it in cause i love taking care of her as much as she loves taking care of me.):hugs:

ps. we dont even try to keep track of it cause we are still having fun( just the 3 of us)

[CharleneCD]

Sobe,

You are very right in what you are saying. My wife is just like that. She has no attraction to me when I am fem. She will flat out tell you that she is not attracted to women. It has caused difficulties with our sex life during those periods when I tend to want to be fem days at a time. So I have to make sure she gets some quality guy time in. I think that is very fair. She accepts and helps out my feminine side and I make sure she doesnt totaly lose the guy she married.

[Marla S]

Thanks for posting your thoughts. You definitively shed some light on the matter.

Let me add some arguments from the other side ... exclusively from my personal experiences.

First: I don't think that emulating a woman is the most wise thing a CD can do and I see that this will (almost inevitable) cause problems (would be worth separate thread why most CDs want/have to emulate a woman).
That turns the attractiveness upside down and it is almost logical that usually attractiveness is lost for the SO.

A big misconception IMO is to dress to please others in the first instance.
In the frist instance you dress for yourself, than you hope others will like it too.
From my experience it doesn't work to tell someone what style to wear or not to wear.
I tried it with my Ex, (whished she would have dressed less masculine), she tried it with me (more the baggy style). Neither did work out. The only result has been frustration, depression and omitting to talk about clothes and appearence in general.

I have learned from it that far more important and far more attractive than the clothes or appearence of the other is that the other feels comfortable in his/her skin.
A confident, happy person is far more attractive than the highest heel or the longest beard can be.

To get told after years together that the hubby is a CD certainly is a shock, and hard to deal with. One time you see the man you married the other time you see some sort of a woman.
I believe in both cases you don't see the real person (both is a bogus). It's disguise this way or that way.

Like most always the truth probably is somewhere in the middle.
I hope and think it is possible to uncover this in a way that both can find it attractive.

[Tree GG]

We've said on numerous occasions, if I were single and saw you in a bar, I'd still try to pick you up. Both he & me.

Would I try to pick up Darlene? Nope.

But even en femme, holding his/her hand, walking arm-in-arm (occurs rarely) or kissing (only lightly, "her" make-up colors look awful on me), the touch is still the same. So if I close my eyes :happy: it makes no difference.

But visually I just don't get the "come hither" feeling. (I don't know what he thinks, I'll have to ask - he'll love that :heehee:)

[Di]

Viva La Difference...............every relationship is different in my case I am attracted to the girly side..and do not consider myself bi or gay.

Maybe thinking about love in this way...it might help............I think
The way a person looks, their physical appearance,or what they wear isn’t as important as their inner looks, or soul. We fall in love with someone’s soul, And We fall in love with their heart. With their inner self. With their true being. And that’s what matters most.And if you look at it that way.....regardless of the clothes or hair or whatever...they are the same person.:2c:

[MJ]

well said sobe.. also there is this issue were my ex could only see the other woman and she could not be near me in our bed because of that .. a real turn off .. i never dresses en femme for bed but when she had that image in her head it's game over.. finding the wonderful woman who can accept this side of us is tough.. thanks for the post

[Rebecca Petersen]

Viva La Difference...............every relationship is different in my case I am attracted to the girly side..and do not consider myself bi or gay.
I think
The way a person looks, their physical appearance,or what they wear isn’t as important as their inner looks, or soul. We fall in love with someone’s soul, And We fall in love with their heart. With their inner self. With their true being. And that’s what matters most.And if you look at it that way.....regardless of the clothes or hair or whatever...they are the same person.:2c:
How very true. If a relationship (Love) is based on physical appearance, you're in for trouble, because as the old adage goes, "Looks fade." Love is based on the inner person, not the outer package. Taking CD'ing out of the equation, my appearance is much different today that it was 20 or 30 years ago.
I must also add, that I have met a great number of women that are attracted to and love their CD'ing SO because they see past the paint and powder. They are far from Bi or Gay, just capable of seeing deeper than many others.

[Joy Carter]

I can't say enough about my wife and what a great woman she is. But she has a body image problem. Although I'd like her to improve her looks with diet. I'd never be the one to suggest it.
So to get to my point is that she (has never said) can't look at me me dressed because I may look better than she. I know this may upset some GGs but it may be another factor here to consider. BTW I do not think I remotely look better than she does. She is most pleasing to my eye.

[Bonnie D]

I can totally understand that. I recently came out to my wife and she now understands why I shaved my moustache a couple of years ago even though I knew she how she felt about it. A moustache didn't fit into my wanting to look and dress like a woman.

I'm leaving the relationship because I need to be with a man. I'm obviously TS but have no plans to transition. My wife asked me what type of man am I looking for and she asked if I would want to have a relationship with another crossdresser. I said that I didn't for the same reasons Sobe is saying. I want my man to be manly but not over-the-top even though I am who I am. I told her that I want him to be around my age, taller, a gentleman, educated, good humour, easy to talk to and who could accept me for me.

I told her I could definitely have friendships with other TGs but for a close relationship I'm looking for a man. I did also say though that if I met a TG who I formed a serious bond with then I could be open to a relationship with her instead. I will just have to wait and see but I do understand what Sobe is talking about.

Bonnie

[sobe1ove GG]

I can't say enough about my wife and what a great woman she is. But she has a body image problem. Although I'd like her to improve her looks with diet. I'd never be the one to suggest it.

Here's another thing. You as cross dressers might have a problem with how WE look too. I've gained over 50 pounds since I started dating Leah B (working on losing it now. Lost 6 pounds these past two weeks) and I was afraid he would lose attraction to me. Heck, it would be understandable. Luckily, that didn't happen. He likes me fat. I'm soft! He's actually said that he'll miss my belly. I hope he can accept me when I'm skinny. :)


The way a person looks, their physical appearance,or what they wear isn’t as important as their inner looks, or soul. We fall in love with someone’s soul, And We fall in love with their heart. With their inner self. With their true being.

I agree and disagree. I totally understand where you are coming from. I do love Leah B no matter what he wears. I love him so much I could suffocate on it. However, that doesn't mean I'm attracted to certain things he does. I think that looks and actions do matter, because that's all we are ever presented with. And if looks didn't matter, then crossdressers wouldn't feel the need to represent their feminine insides by passing as a woman. How people see us is important.

I think it's great that you like Sher's lady side. I'm really happy for you, and a bit envious. But, we all have our good and bad parts of our relationships.

[EmmaB GG]

There's no right or wrong here - everyone has their own combination of what attracts them to their partner and, yes, these things do change over the years.

And physical attraction is a 2 way thing - I'd like all the CDgirls here to think deep inside themselves and admit what attracted them to their GG SO in the first place - and if all you say to yourselves is their sense of humour, wit, enquiring mind etc, we'll know many of you are lying .... !

[Chantelle CD]

Once again Sobe i totally agree with you, attraction is important!!! A woman is attracted to a MAN. Unless she is bi or gay, and if you are not you will be repulsed by it, my SO doesn't want me to touch her or come near her that way because of this, and i totally understand this. I did a reply to AmberTG thread "Guilt put on the SO" sorry i dont know how to link yet Lol so i wont repeat a lot i said there, but i know when i am dressed i look silly hehe and unattractive to my SO, i am a man, have a man body, and to have a balanced female body my butt would have to be so big, i couldn't get threw the door!!!! I have a mustache still, and love it on my me, and my So loves my go-tee, witch i have taken of, just for a change, cause i also like the mustache only look on me, but like the go-tee as well, it will come back at some point, and the mustache may go at some time as well, to play with make up and looking as good as i can get myself to look, but it will come back as well. It only takes a few weeks and is grown back in again. If your mate chooses to go threw the door of going all the way, and changing his male side so much to help make his female side look better, and you dont like it a lot, you may have to go threw a door that you have to, just to find your own peace in life, witch my dear, is your total right!!! And i would only wish for you happiness above all!!

I also seen that EMULATE word again, ekkk i not sure i like that word, again i dont thin a CD copy's a woman, but likes to feel what they do, and is a part of themselves. And i dont see that a TG or TS woman, <or dont understand a better word> is not doing the same as a CD, I imagine there a lot of different reasons why a man has chosen to throw away his maleness, as there are individual TS and TG people out there, I dont think there is a difference between them and CD's, except that a CD doesn't hate there male side!! Or maybe we CD's should all change our avatar names to male ones? My feelings on this may make me out to be an outcast here on these fourms to some, but it is how i feel, sorry all, I believe in the phrase "energy present determines the form" and we as spiritual beings can feel anything and everything we want to , and at any time we want to, just by simply tuning into it :love: :hugs: :D :mad: :angry::dancing: or male or female.

Love yall

Chantelle

[Caroline]

I see a lot of things on this message board from cross dressers who say that this is who they are, it's natural, get over it. Of course, I'm paraphrasing, but it seems like a lot of CDers can't understand why a GG SO would have a problem with it. I'd like to shed a little light.

A lot of what a relationship is comes from attraction. You are attracted to your partner in various ways. You are attracted to their personality, their aspirations and goals, how they treat you. You are also attracted to how they look and act.

Very true


When we, all of us, get in a relationship, our decision to be with someone is largely based on those attractions. If cross dressing is introduced years after the start of a relationship, attraction can be the biggest issue.

I would have thought that there were more important issues involved, such as the feeling that one had been misled by one's partner from the beginning.

If the most important aspect of the relationship was the external appearance of one's partner, then the relationship is doomed once age and infirmity begin to take hold - not to mention accidents or illnesses which cause physical changes.


Essentially, the cross dresser is introducing a lot of new behavior and appearances.

So does age, infirmity, illnesses, maturity and many other things.


Where we were attracted to your rough appearance, you are now clean and hair free. Where we were attracted to your strength, you are now much more feminine and light.

That is a generalisation, and many would disputed it, even if the terms used were adequately defined and true of all CDs.


A lot of attraction also comes from how you, all of us, look. I, for example, like men. I don't find women attractive. I'm not bi or gay. This can be a problem. Although you as cross dressers ARE men, when you are presenting as women, SOs like me have a hard time finding you attractive. We may even be repulsed. It isn't because you're a crossdresser, but because we just don't like girls.

Fully understandable, and something that you have to explore with your particular partner to work out a modus vivendi for you both.


Another thing, for me and others, is that I don't like people (romantically) who are prissy. I am not attracted to people who like frilly things and like to prance and wear heals and makeup. Even if you are obviously a guy, and aren't trying to be a woman, this is still unattractive.

Once again that is how your feel - and you are entitled to do so - but it is not true for everyone.


Yes, there are some ladies who like this. These are then the relationships with the most acceptance. But, if you are with a GG SO who is straight and likes her man to be at least somewhat manly, then there will be a problem.

Agreed, which is why I think that CDs should be totally frank with their prospective girlfriends/partners/wives to be from the very beginning - i.e. the second date. Then the partner has a chance to decide whether to continue with the relationship or not, but if she does so then she has entered it with open eyes and in full knowledge.


A lot of us GGs don't actually have a problem with cross dressers. We don't hate you or think what you are doing is wrong.

Glad to hear it, and it accord with my own findings too.



It's all about the attraction factor. By introducing cross dressing into the relationship, you are taking away some of her attraction to you. And where a big problem comes in is if you start to change how even your man side looks. If you start thinning your eyebrows, you will look MUCH more feminine, and this will always be the case because it's not like you can take off or put on new eyebrows on a whim. In these situations we look at you and see the feminine side even when you aren't wearing a dress. Then it's like a part of you is unattractive all of the time.

Which is why the CDing should have been mentioned at the beginning and discussed fully before the woman became committed.


Now, this may change over time. She may become attracted to that female part of you. In the meantime, you maybe might understand where she's coming from and cut her a bit of slack.

It always takes two to tango, as they say, and you are quite right that there has to be give and take. However, a lot of the problems would probably have been obviated if the CDer had been open right from the beginning, so that the partner didn't meet with a situation they didn't expect some years down the line. To put myself in your shoes, as it were, if I was not a CDer and my partner suddenly told me some years into our relationship that she wanted to shave her head, adopt male clothing, and behave in a macho way, then I'd have some difficulty in dealing with it, so I do understand your position.


Also, this attraction thing can happen with other changes. For example, I don't really like the hip hop culture of baggy jeans and bad English and attitudes. If my guy started being like that, I'd have a problem because I think it's unattractive.

I can not only understand that, I can empathise with it, as I've tried to show by my above comment.


Hopefully I've shed some light on where us as GG SOs are coming from.

Sobe

Yes you have, but I think that the real issue is the lack honesty that some CDers show their partners from the beginning, and that they frequently only admit the truth when caught out or when the partner has invested a great deal in the relationship and is fully committed.

I hope things work out for you.

[Gunda]

Sobe1oveGG,
Logical, well considered, and well said. That is why it is often so important for crossdressers and their wives, fiances, girlfriends, to come to some sort of consensus where neither party feels uncomfortable or that the other is being too selfish. For my own part, I once admitted my crossdressing to a close female friend I once had other feelings for. Had those feelings ever been demonstrated physically, I would never had let my dressing come into the equation nor throw it in her face. She liked my male side. Although I wish she could have joined me in cultivating my other side, that was never reality and I needed to work within it.

I think it is good that you mentioned that GGs being made uncomfortable by crossdressing doesn't necessarily mean they find the practice wrong in principle - its just a matter of attractiveness.

Best,
Gunda

[sobe1ove GG]

I would have thought that there were more important issues involved, such as the feeling that one had been misled by one's partner from the beginning.

That's there too, but where it's easier to get over the betrayal (or at least, once you do, you're fine), the lack of attraction may never go away. Also, I wanted to bring up just one topic, as opposed to the whole gambit of why someone would have a problem with this.

Also, I figured that it would be assumed that not everyone applies to what I said. I think I even mentioned that. However, I'm sorry that I misled you. Everyone is different, and my examples only apply to some of us.

[Nigella]

Whilst we all find our "perfect" partner at the start of a relationship, we all change, this can be for better or worse. Sandra is not the same person I met all those years ago, and neither am I. We have developed in our relationship with each other, adapting to each other, making things easier for each other.

The one thing to remember is that we have done it together, working hard at making things work. It is not easy and there is certainly plenty of give and take.

Sandra has said that even though there has been a dramatic change in me, underneath it all I am still the same person (man) she fell in love with.

I understand that some can't accept this major change in their relationship, but I will say thank god we are all different.

This is a SUPPORT forum, it means we should help all members irrespective of their level of acceptance, but it does not give any of us the right to force our views on others.

[Caroline]

That's there too, but where it's easier to get over the betrayal (or at least, once you do, you're fine), the lack of attraction may never go away. Also, I wanted to bring up just one topic, as opposed to the whole gambit of why someone would have a problem with this.

Also, I figured that it would be assumed that not everyone applies to what I said. I think I even mentioned that. However, I'm sorry that I misled you. Everyone is different, and my examples only apply to some of us.

Sobe, You didn't mislead me, and it is difficult to say everything that needs to be said, so one can only be selective. I appreciate that, and was not being critical of you, for I think that you have genuine issues that need to be addressed, and - what's more - I both sympathise and empathise with your situation. I am amazed though that you found it relatively easy to get over the betrayal - or at least I understand that you have - since that is the most difficult thing for most partners to come to terms with (whether it is about CDing, money issues, infidelities, or whatever), and the fact that you have done so so readily shows just how forgiving you can be, and that is a credit to you, though you should not allow it to be abused.

Kind regards.

[Leah B]

Now, this may change over time. She may become attracted to that female part of you. In the meantime, you maybe might understand where she's coming from and cut her a bit of slack.

Okay :)

[Ema1234 GG]

First of all what a fantastic post! :D

I can completely understand what you have said, and although not everything applies to my own relationship I can certainly relate to everything you have said.

Personally, I AM attracted to woman. However, I am not a lesbian, I have no desire what so ever to be in a relationship with a woman. It's purely a physical attraction and nothing more.

This said, I think it's quite interesting that I really do not find my partner attractive when dressed. In fact, in the past it's probably been bordering on replusion but we're working on that (by improving his skills in dressing so he looks more like a woman and less like a man in drag!). However, even with time I very much doubt I will ever be able to whole heartedly say that I don't feel some element of sadness when I see him dressed.

Purely and simply I fell in love with him as a male, I was attracted to him as a male. I like rough masculine men and that won't ever change and that is what attracted me to him in the first place. I think what hurts the most is that I can still see that person that I love and am very much attracted to underneath the clothes and make up.

HOWEVER, I love this person for far more than their physical appearance. Purely physical attraction is not love, it's lust. I've been through a tough time recently with my partner's CDing but at the end of the day I love them and although their phsyical appearance may have first attracted me to them it was their personality that made me fall in love with them. As has been said before in this post, looks may fade with time but their personality will always be there.

Am I fully accepting of my partner's CDing? No I'm not, it's hard for me to see my manly man dressed and I think to some degree it probably always will be. But i love them deeply and am prepared to accept this part of them as at the end of the day, it really could be a lot worse. Just because they CD doesn't mean their personality has changed, they are still the same person.

But will I ever be attracted to them? No I probably won't, even though I am attracted to woman, I'll always see my partner underneath and to me that is the hardest part.

[Fab Karen]

Also, I figured that it would be assumed that not everyone applies to what I said. I think I even mentioned that. However, I'm sorry that I misled you. Everyone is different, and my examples only apply to some of us.

The language you use tends to give the impression that all women hold the same feelings about men's body hair. Glad to see a correction about that. It seems logical that you'd be turned off by a hairless guy regardless of crossdressing - hypothetically, if someone chooses not to have an intimate relationship with someone simply because of that, they're entitled to do so, shallow as it may be. I would make the point that a hairless man isn't less a man, a gay man isn't less a man, a woman with hairy legs &/or without make-up isn't less a woman, a gay woman isn't less a woman, etc.

[Toyah]

I understand what you are saying but I really had no sucess with the rough and hairy look kinda pug ugly only get by (just )with humour but not great at that.
I honestly dont know why my wife likes me I usually dont like myself but WTF

[TxKimberly]

. . . I'd like all the CDgirls here to think deep inside themselves and admit what attracted them to their GG SO in the first place - and if all you say to yourselves is their sense of humour, wit, enquiring mind etc, we'll know many of you are lying .... !

Her eyes - no joke, and no fib, her eyes are what attracted me. It didn't hurt that those eyes were on top of a cute little figure and in a pretty face, but it WAS the eyes.

And for the record, Sobi is of course spot on. I would NOT be delighted were the rolls reversed and SHE wanted to spend as much time as possible looking like a man. I would hope that I could deal with it with a fraction of the grace and kindness she has shown me, but I would not be pleased.

Kim / Matt

[Rachel Morley]

Hi Sobe,

I'm very lucky because my wife likes it. She had a crossdressing boyfriend before and looked to date a cder before she met me. She's even encouraging her sister to date crossdressers!

Another thing, for me and others, is that I don't like people (romantically) who are prissy. I am not attracted to people who like frilly things and like to prance and wear heals and makeup. Even if you are obviously a guy, and aren't trying to be a woman, this is still unattractive.
Not for my wife! I am so very very fortunate. Marla has told me many times that no matter how much I feminize myself or look like a woman (providing I don't take hormones or get any permanent body modifications) she can, and will always "see the boy". Ok, a girly boy but a boy just the same, and this is where the difference really kicks in because she is the opposite to you (and almost every woman I know) she really likes feminine men, especially me, and especially when I wear women's clothes, makeup, BUT NO WIG. :eek: I know ... it took me ages to accept this.

Yes, there are some ladies who like this. These are then the relationships with the most acceptance. But, if you are with a GG SO who is straight and likes her man to be at least somewhat manly, then there will be a problem.
I agree. Likes manly men yes, straight not necessarily (not in my case) my wife IS straight. I know this for a fact because she's told me she's already tried women and she didn't like it. I grant you this does make her different but as you already correctly indicated, these are the relationships with the most acceptance. Like I said, I'm extremely lucky and in the minority.

A lot of us GGs don't actually have a problem with cross dressers. We don't hate you or think what you are doing is wrong. It's all about the attraction factor.
This for me is where you "hit the nail on the head" it's all about what turns people on. Lets say a person is a GG who thinks a hairy chest is manly and attractive but she has a crossdressing husband who wants to shave his chest and abdomen, then I would say he is basically doing something that is less attractive to his wife/girlfriend. I can see how this would be a problem. I adore my wife's long hair and I would not like it very much if she one day told me "this is what she is" and then got a buzz cut. I wouldn't love her any less, and I would still find her attractive (her appearance is only a small part of what makes her attractive to me) but I would miss her hair and it would take some getting used to but I know I could.

I just thank the Lord that I am who I am, and my wife is who she is. How we ever found one another is truly a miracle that could only have happened because of something bigger than the both of us. No one will ever convince me of anything different. Here's how it happened - click here (http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-P8CzasowdaH5WC.GdwVkpuiCrQIk6Jlx?p=1) if you're interested.

[Carin's Wife GG]

it all about what turns you on the first place. I look back over my live at see at different times and see what was really important and attractive to me
about Carin. Even in her femme mode I am attracted to her. (She is helping me typing).

Cant type much more! Maybe I can add so more tomorrow.


Louise.

[Dixie]

I keep having Da Ja Vu!!!!!

I keep having Da Ja Vu!!!!!!!!!

I keep having........:D:heehee:

[Satrana]

Purely and simply I fell in love with him as a male, I was attracted to him as a male. I like rough masculine men and that won't ever change and that is what attracted me to him in the first place. I think what hurts the most is that I can still see that person that I love and am very much attracted to underneath the clothes and make up.

And therein lies the problem. We are all conditioned to seek out masculinity or femininity and lust after it. However both are ultimately artificial and superficial. We are all transgendered, including all non-cds, so masculine men and feminine women are really just facades, the social masks worn to get ahead in society. It is like lusting after an actor or pop star because of their public appearances, but often the real person is nothing like their public persona.

If you are looking foremost for masculinity in your partner then of course crossdressing is going to be problematic. If you are looking foremost for a soul mate to share your life with then crossdressing can be accommodated after a period of adjustment.

Also consider this. Over the last few decades women have adopted many masculine traits, behaviors, attitudes and looks. The modern woman today is far removed from the classical feminine idol men lust after. But despite this men still women attractive, men have accepted the "transgenderness" women now exhibit. So it can be done because it has already happened.

With regard to the issue of unattractive features, is this not something we all possess. Who is lucky enough to have a partner who does not have annoying or unattractive features and behaviors? But if you love the person, you look past these, your attraction should not be focused on those details which you dislike, rather your focus should remain fixed on those details you love.

[Robin Leigh]

Viva La Difference...............every relationship is different in my case I am attracted to the girly side..and do not consider myself bi or gay.

Maybe thinking about love in this way...it might help............I think
The way a person looks, their physical appearance,or what they wear isn’t as important as their inner looks, or soul. We fall in love with someone’s soul, And We fall in love with their heart. With their inner self. With their true being. And that’s what matters most.And if you look at it that way.....regardless of the clothes or hair or whatever...they are the same person.:2c:I like it, Di. :happy: I've always said that it's what's inside that counts. People with such an attitude do tend to share secrets like CDing quite early in the relationship. To me, it makes sense to find someone I trust deeply, someone who is compatible with me, not someone who will merely tolerate my idiosyncrasies & me theirs.

But Sobe is discussing CDers who come out after the relationship is already long-established. It creates such a different dynamic in the relationship when the revelation doesn't happen until much later. If a CDer doesn't come clean up front, the SO is entitled to compensation in the form of compromise, IMHO. And the CDer should have no expectation that the SO will find any of this attractive. If she does, great, if not, well that's what you get for false advertising. :p

Of course, things aren't always so cut & dried. Some CDers don't blossom until well after they are married, so they can't be blamed for hiding anything. And lots of us think we'll be cured by the love of a good women, & are too embarrassed to mention this "hobby" we intend to give up... :rolleyes:

:hugs:

Robin

[Satrana]

If a CDer doesn't come clean up front, the SO is entitled to compensation in the form of compromise, IMHO. And the CDer should have no expectation that the SO will find any of this attractive. If she does, great, if not, well that's what you get for false advertising. :p


Do relationships come with warranties as well? :D

I don't think concepts like entitlements and compensation within relationships is a good idea. I had better get some relationship insurance otherwise:heehee:

[Kate Simmons]

A lot of good thoughts and feelings expressed in this thread. I do agree with Satrana, however, that if we fall in love with a facade(due to conditioning by society) rather than the person, we are eventually doomed to some kind of disappointment.:happy:

[Tree GG]

A lot of good thoughts and feelings expressed in this thread. I do agree with Satrana, however, that if we fall in love with a facade(due to conditioning by society) rather than the person, we are eventually doomed to some kind of disappointment.:happy:

Sorry, I don't agree society is to blame on this one. The CDer has to take the responsibility of not being honest with himself and passing that dishonesty down the line to spouse, etc. Now I will 100% agree that dishonesty was probably not done in a deliberate, or vicious light - he was just not aware or in denial about his TGness. Denial is subtle, yet powerful.

I think the subject of this thread is how important is attractiveness in your relationship. CDing dramatically changes the physical traits of someone, and those traits may have been very important to their partner when establishing the relationship. I don't think that is as superficial as it sounds. Our relationship was very physical from the word go - the physical attraction was almost palpable. And over time, yes, we've changed physically - subtle aging process - but we still find each other attractive. Is it the most important element? No. But the possibility of completely losing that attraction because of CDing is very real and could be catastrophic (for the relationship).

Looking past the wig, the make-up, the padding is difficult to do at first. Sure the God given form is still under there, but some days it's just hard to see. The feel, the smell, the taste, the sound are still there - and most importantly the eyes & smile. As long as I can see those, it's OK and I'll remember what's there & feel the joy when it's easily accessed visually.

Absolutely a good relationship is full of guarantees, compensations and entitlements. We are both entitled to respectful and loving treatment, we have the right to be compensated with love and empowerment, and should be guaranteed that no matter what, we will do our damnedest to work through it and remember our partner's feelings are equally as important as our own.

[Kate Simmons]

I agree Tree that in a committed relationship, each partner has the responsibility to show love and commitment to each other. It's an ongoing process and showing concern for each other's needs (and not being selfish) is essential. You are sharing your life with someone after all and working towards a common goal. Getting to really know someone and understanding them is quite different. I was mainy referring to fulfilling society's "model" of what it's generally thought that a "man" or a "woman" should be which most of us realize is just not so. Those of us who accept and appreciate one another for who we are as people are way ahead of the game in this regard.:happy:

[Angie G]

You have a valid point sobe this is why I go drab on the weekends so she has her man :hugs:
Angie

[Satrana]

Sorry, I don't agree society is to blame on this one. The CDer has to take the responsibility of not being honest with himself and passing that dishonesty down the line to spouse, etc.

Don't forget Tree that most of us became crossdressers as young children and there is no way a young child could or should be expected to stand up to the overwhelming intolerance and prejudice aimed at us. Any child who admitted they were a crossdresser would literally have the s**t kicked out of them, the emotional scars would be horrendous. There is only one possibility, to go into the closet. This is not a choice for us, it is 100&#37; the fault of society.

After spending your childhood in the closet, the routine is set. It is only as adults do we realistically have the opportunity to reverse the damage and work out a way to climb out of the closet. That is often a long process of self-realization and self-confidence. And in the meantime many of us will get married long before that process is completed.

It is society which forces us into the closet, it is society that fills us with shame and guilt. Dishonesty only comes into play if the man knows what he is and understands that this is not just a passing whim but a permanent part of his personality. And until the advent of the internet, many CDs did not know where to look for answers to these questions. You cannot be dishonest about something you do not understand.


Absolutely a good relationship is full of guarantees, compensations and entitlements

I have a different definition of what constitutes a good relationship: mutual love, respect and trust.
If my wife started asking for guarantees, entitlements and compensations from me I would walk out the door as these concepts are contrary to mutual love, respect and trust. Maybe we have a different understanding of what these words mean.

[Rhonda Jean]

[QUOTE=But the possibility of completely losing that attraction because of CDing is very real and could be catastrophic (for the relationship).[/QUOTE]

I'm scared to death that this is what my wife is experiencing. After 29 year of marriage, it's been building for a long time. I didn't know. I would have given up cding, as I have now. I don't know how to recreate the attraction. I found out 12 days ago. It's been hell. She doesn't want me to touch her. We try to talk about it. I'm sure I come across as desperate. I am. She is emotionally numb. No tears. Whatever I got out of cding for all these years was not worth it. Wish I could undo it. I love her with all my heart. She has a lot of difficulty saying "I love you" now. She tries, but I get the feeling it is more or less to pacify me. She says she doesn't know if she can stay with me. Thankfully, she's made no plans to leave. It has been hell. I never could imagine this happening to us. It is hell. I don't want anything in this world but her. I'm not sure that matters to her now. I'm going to do everything in my power to win her back. I won't accept that it's over.

If anyone has been through this and survived I'd like to hear how you did it. This is the worst experience of my life. I cannot face the end of this relationship. I think she may already have. But, as she'd said, "If I was ready to leave I'd already be gone." That's the only glimmer of hope I've been giver

[Marcie Sexton]

I must agree that all your points are wll made, and taken, however let me add this as a side dish of food for thought.

From day one of my relationship with my wife we have grown. As we have just passed out 20th year we still continue to grow...While I'm sure it was a shock to her when I came out it done two things that were in both our opinions were well worth it.

1 There were no secrets

2 The strength of our love was re-enforced

If the relationship is and was built on love and respect there is always room for growth...That is not to say there won't be rough spots in the road of life, but if willing the love and respect will over come all...:2c:


Let me add one more thing that I assumed, and we all know what that makes of you.

There must be an agreed medium on all parts of the relationship, including dressing. Which my wife and I have reached...

[Tree GG]

I fully understand and appreciate why a CD goes in the closet.

IMO, we're discussing a physical attraction & relationship between just 2 people here. Sure these people were influenced by the society they were raised in, but in a private, singular relationship, I still maintain that each party is ultimately responsible for how they presented, communicated and interacted with the other.

Society's influence is less (or should be, IMO) when behind closed doors together. :kissing:

[marie354]

Great thread Sobe! You bring up some interesting points from a woman's point of view, that some may not always see.


Every relationship is different.... And I do not consider myself bi or gay.

The way a person looks, their physical appearance,or what they wear isn’t as important as their inner looks, or soul. We fall in love with someone’s soul, And We fall in love with their heart.

That's the way I've always felt about a relationship. It has been said... "The clothes make the man." So what if it makes him a bit more feminine. He's still the same person you fell in live with, and probably always will be.


Also there is this issue were my ex could only see the other woman and she could not be near me in our bed because of that .. a real turn off... I never dressed en femme for bed but when she had that image in her head it's game over.

My SO is the same way. When I climb in bed with her, I BETTER be Sam or nothing is going to happen. I can respect that.


Whilst we all find our "perfect" partner at the start of a relationship, we all change, this can be for better or worse. Sandra is not the same person I met all those years ago, and neither am I. We have developed in our relationship with each other, adapting to each other, making things easier for each other.

We definitely change every day. We need to adapt to the things that are constantly changing around us. After all, a flower doesn't grow over night. Nature is in constant flux. Some may not notice the the subtle changes in people , but they happen just the same.


And therein lies the problem. We are all conditioned to seek out masculinity or femininity and lust after it.

Yes, we are definitely conditioned from the moment we are born to look and act the way society expects.


Sorry, I don't agree society is to blame on this one. The CDer has to take the responsibility of not being honest with himself and passing that dishonesty down the line to spouse, etc. Now I will 100% agree that dishonesty was probably not done in a deliberate, or vicious light - he was just not aware or in denial about his TGness. Denial is subtle, yet powerful.

Yes, I think that we all (CDers) have been in denial at one point or another in our lives. And yes... That is really lieing... To ourselves as well as others.

We must continue to develop and change, as everything and everyone around us does. Even a simple stone changes over time. Unfortunately, Some erode into nothing, while nature polishes some beautifully.
Some plants close their petals at night and re-open them beautifully every day, but they are always slightly different looking than they were the day before. So it is with all people. If we can't adapt to the daily changes of life, then we will slowly erode away too.
We may not like, notice, or care about all of the changes around us, but they happen all the time none the less. Some for the good, some not.
It is nice, however, that we are all different in some way or the other. It surely would be a dull world if we were all the same and had the same opinions about everything.

Again, thanks Sobe, and everyone else for bring your thoughts to light here.
:hugs:

[Robin Leigh]

Do relationships come with warranties as well? :D

I don't think concepts like entitlements and compensation within relationships is a good idea. I had better get some relationship insurance otherwise:heehee:I think I know where you're coming from, Satrana. And I don't like to make a relationship sound like a business partership.

But if there has been conscious dishonesty on the part of the CD, that's hardly fair on the SO, no matter how she feels about the dressing itself. So the couple needs some way to adjust to a new balance that both partners feel is fair and are comfortable with.

Compensation for how the SO feels about the dressing is an additional issue. Revealing that one is a CD in a long-term relationship instantly changes the perception of the balance of masculine & feminine energies in the relationship. Some women may not be able to cope with this shift at all, and some may need much time & assistance. If the CD told up-front, the SO wouldn't have to go through this turmoil, so he is obliged to compromise to some degree, IMHO.


I'm not trying to attack anyone. And I know how hard it can be to tell anyone that you CD. And I'm certainly not trying to tell all those in the closet that must immediately come out to their wives; that decision is theirs alone to make.

But I do encourage people to tell as early as is practical in the relationship, when you feel you can trust her, but neither are too attached that it will be too painful to split if things don't work out. That could be after a month, or after 3 months. I generally have told my girlfriends around the six week mark, although some I told earlier.

:hugs:

Robin

[Sporco]

Well put... I think it would be good for us CDing guys to read this periodically as a reminder of what we are putting the women in our lives through...

[battybattybats]

While it is the reponsibility of the CD to come to terms with that aspect of themselves we can't judge those who have yet to suceed. That is unreasonable blame flinging. It is also not the fault of the CD, even one stuck in the closet, for what the SO goes through, that is seriously unsound. If we chose to be crossdressers, if we fully understood ourselves and then kept it hidden only then would we bear that responsibility. Otherwise it is simply a circumstance. Now I realise that in general human beings have trouble with circumstance as causation, we need things to be someones fault. In reality it's something that just happens. Yep, just happens. We can't point at those who are unable to bring themselves to confess before marriage and say 'you are to blame'. It just doesn't wash. Sure some of us are luckier than others, some are more virtuous than others, some are more self aware than others, some are brought up in a more open minded atmosphere than others.

These are human beings, we can't expect them to be supermen! Yes in an ideal situation the SO should be told. In an ideal situation humans should not eat animals either but until they grow cloned meat in vats I'll just strive for free-range wherever the option is available to me.
There are times when it's just too glib to throw moral lines across human behaviour as a standard.. good ideal yes, fair standard no.

If the SO were told early or late they still have to come to terms with it, the sooner is the better but it also makes it easier for people to reject, run away and wash their hands of human beings. Irrespective what the SO is going through is caused by their expectations not matching reality. Expectations created by a society that fails to prepare them for the possibility that prince charming will wear a pink frock on the weekends. It is the circumstance that puts the SO through what they go through and not the fault of the CD.

Absolutely the CD has to come to terms with who they are, absolutely the CD can't realisticly expect the unconditional acceptance that morally they deserve just as the SO can't realisticly expect the honesty that they morally deserve. Sigh.. it's two sides of the same coin, the situations are soo similar.

Yes attraction is that shallow. It is extremely superficial.. it is also deeply hardwired into human beings through millions of years of natural selection to be superficial and it is a particularly human trait to (occassionally) rise above that and not move on to the younger mate when the current one gets old, grey or gains weight.

[sobe1ove GG]

Just because what the CDer did (in not telling, or telling way late) may be an accident or unintentional, it doesn't mean they didn't do something wrong.

If I accidentally kill someone, I'll be going to jail. My sentence will be lighter, but I'll still be punished. And I should.

If you hurt someone, whether intentionally or not, that's a bad thing. It's terribly rude to say, 'well, I didn't mean it, so get over it. You are superficial and a bad person for getting upset.'

CDers do something wrong to their ladies when they don't tell them what's going on up front. Now, this sometimes can't be helped and everything. That's fine. I understand that. But I still have the right to be upset if that happens to me. You still did something wrong.

----

Also, I would like to reiterate my intentions from the original post. I am not talking about love. Only attraction. I don't love my boyfriend any less now that he cross dresses. It's the attraction that's affected. I think that's the case with a lot of ladies here.

I am also NOT advocating leaving the relationship if he messes with the attraction quotient. Unless an extreme situation happens (like 24/7 TS all of a sudden) it would be a little weird thing to break up for.

And as for the people who say, 'well, you're going to get old and grey! That's the same!' No it isn't. Getting old and grey is gradual. You don't just suddenly become wrinkly one day. That's also only one aspect of a person. That's nothing like cross dressing, which changes a LOT of things about the CDer (to the eyes of the SO) and changes a LOT of things about the relationship. All in one day.

Then again, I think all GGs get flack here for having a problem with this. That's unfair. People say, 'If you guys break up, she was terrible and a wench and unaccepting...' so on. Maybe... JUST MAYBE, the breakup could have been the CDers fault? Yes, cross dressers can do bad things as well. They are human after all. But that never seems to be the case here. Even if it's the GG bringing up the relationship problems in the forum, it's still her fault(to the league of thread responders). *shakes head*

Sorry... that was a bit of a rant.

Sobe

[battybattybats]

Just because what the CDer did (in not telling, or telling way late) may be an accident or unintentional, it doesn't mean they didn't do something wrong.

If I accidentally kill someone, I'll be going to jail. My sentence will be lighter, but I'll still be punished. And I should.

If you hurt someone, whether intentionally or not, that's a bad thing. It's terribly rude to say, 'well, I didn't mean it, so get over it. You are superficial and a bad person for getting upset.'

CDers do something wrong to their ladies when they don't tell them what's going on up front. Now, this sometimes can't be helped and everything. That's fine. I understand that. But I still have the right to be upset if that happens to me. You still did something wrong.

Not always. To be punished you must be negligent and lots of accidents occur without negligence and those people aren't punished. Now firstly I'm reffering to the causative factor which is essential to determining right action... and if looked at accuratly we can see that if the CD is incapable of informing the SO (and yes psychologically incapable is valid here) then the CD is ruled out of the causative function. So simply the CD is then not hurting the SO. Yes the SO is hurt. It's just not the CD who caused the hurt. Even if they are capable of informing the SO but don't they are only guilty of failing to ammeliorate the proportion of hurt of the SO! They are still not guilty of a direct causation of hurt to the SO. If the CD tries to hide and 'cure' themselves in their ignorance they have acted on a mistaken premise but there actions are morally right, not morally wrong. They are acting to ameliorate the suffering that they can reasonably predict the SO will suffer, the very motivation required for being up front. Once they discover (and fully realise) that a cure is impossible then they tend to come forward. They are guilty of being wrong about something and therefore making decisions poor only in hindsight not doing the wrong thing.

Now the SO isn't a superficial or bad person for getting upset.. we are talking about multiple victims here, not a villain and a victim. You have the right to be upset, but is the blame justifiable? Is it reasonable to expect your average CD to be capable of understanding themselves enough at the start of the relationship to be upfront? Things just can't be viewed that simplisticly. Morally an argument could be made that it is wrong to not love someone unconditionally and instantaneously accept a CD.. but that is equally a simplistic and unrealistic ideal.


And as for the people who say, 'well, you're going to get old and grey! That's the same!' No it isn't. Getting old and grey is gradual. You don't just suddenly become wrinkly one day. That's also only one aspect of a person. That's nothing like cross dressing, which changes a LOT of things about the CDer (to the eyes of the SO) and changes a LOT of things about the relationship. All in one day.

Actually my great aunt went snow white overnight and people can gain weight pretty quickly, sure the speeds might be different and there is less shock with something gradual but it's really just splitting hairs. The age someone is attracted too may not change relative to their own age, lots of people, men and women, are attracted to younger people when they are older. That's the primary reason why so many spend a fortune trying to look younger. It's basicly the same thing, something that is attractive on a surface level (yet still with a profoundly stong piece of biological wiring powering that) changes and ceases to be so attractive.


Then again, I think all GGs get flack here for having a problem with this. That's unfair. People say, 'If you guys break up, she was terrible and a wench and unaccepting...' so on. Maybe... JUST MAYBE, the breakup could have been the CDers fault? Yes, cross dressers can do bad things as well. They are human after all. But that never seems to be the case here. Even if it's the GG bringing up the relationship problems in the forum, it's still her fault(to the league of thread responders). *shakes head*

I've seen CD's criticised here for their attitudes and choices related to their spouses and I've not been here regularly untill reasonably recently. I've also seen folks being awefully understanding of their SO's after being rejected in the most fundamental way. I've seen plenty of folks choose to put themselves through profound agony by repressing this side of themselves because of their profound love for their SO's and compassionate understanding of their inability to accept. I'm not in a position to posit what the average or most frequent response is but I've read enough to know that your use of never is an exaggeration.

[Charmaine]

I am a GG with a CD bf and whether he is dressed as a man or woman I still love him and feel the same inside. The eyes are the same either way and the way they look at me are the same either way.

I've told him there is no difference if he slips into bed in satin shorts or a satin nightie it's still his body next to mine.

I don't believe that appearance has anything to do with love. Sure we all like to look at things that look good to us....that's why we renovate or buy nice homes. Hang beautiful pictures. Maintain our lawns. But that gives us only a superficial satisfaction. It gives us nothing deeper. If you were given every nice looking thing in the world would you truly be happy? Look at your friends. Are you attracted to their looks? Probably not. Yet, do they make you happy to be with them? Do you insist they wear certain clothes or look a certain way when in public with you? Or maybe when they come to your house for dinner and a movie you insist they wear formal attire because, afterall, you'd rather have them look appealing to you or why bother being friends? When they look like slobs you can't laugh at their jokes like you do when they are beautifully dressed, you can't enjoy a good fishing trip with them or a day at the mall. Right?

I've always said, "to know if you truly love someone, if you went blind would you still love them? If they became wheelchair bound but still had their mind perfectly intact, would you still love them. If it was the other way around, would they still love you? Only if you can honestly answer yes to all of those questions do you really have true love."

Attraction to the inner beauty is all that really matters. Everything else can be taken away.

[Leah B]

You made a good point in your last sentence there, Charmaine. Attraction is not just about physical elements. But I disagree with the assertion that attraction is superficial. There are superficial elements and there are deep elements. Love and attraction aren't one and the same, but they're interwined. Sobe loves me for many of the same reasons she's attracted to me (sense of humor, similar interests, same general political philosophy, etc.). Attraction happens on many levels, perhaps a large portion of wich we are not even aware.

You can love someone without being attracted to them, but we don't enter into romantic partnerships for this sort of love. If I became unattractive to Sobe overnight, she'd still love me, perhaps more like a brother or a friend, but it's love. But who wants to be romantically involved with a brother or a friend? Say what you will about attraction, but it's important.

Fortunately, attraction isn't static. I love things about Sobe I might not have agt the start of the relationship. Just ast attraction fosters love, love fosters attraction.

[5inchHeels]

This is a great talk by Helen Fisher who's been researching Love, gender differences, and human emotions.

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/16

About a third of way through the video she explains the connection and evolution of sex, love, and romanticism.

Also relevant are her comments on gender differences about 10 minutes into the video.

The entire video is great (as are all the videso on the site) and worth watching.

[Chantelle CD]

So now we have come to a understanding that there is attraction to one's being, and to ones appearance. I think what makes attraction and love as far as a couple, is a combination of both. The biggie i think is the attraction to ones being, with time we age and get old together, and the appearance one diminishes or evolves over time naturally. On the other hand, there is a little thing called heterosexual relationships, involving a male and a female. I still think if one signed up for a relationship as a male, you cant really expect your mate to want to have a female as a partner. To have one come around from time to time, ya, sure, but to slowly watch the man she fell in love with, <both coming from a soulful connection, and a physical one> diminish and slowly die, has got to be a very very hard thing to live threw!! I think if you are a TG or TS, you may very well need to find a mate as your female self, weather it is a man you want, or another woman. especially if you want to be a woman 24/7. There are so many reasons to why a male and female partner help each other in a relationship, sexually, emotionally, and for balancing. Yes my female side is me as well, but my SO is totally not attracted to her, she loves her, but doesn't want to be sexual with her, or cuddle up to her, and i totally understand that, she needs to have me as my male self as well, and mostly. You cant blame our wives if they had left us because we had changed so drastically, if we had failed to give her what she needs. We have a need to dress, and some to even transform, but we must not neglect there needs, both emotionally, and physically.

Chantelle

[Sheri 4242]

Wow, what a thread! So much to respond to that it is almost overwhelming. (Guess my wife and I were en route home from Las Vegas when this thread was started.)

I want to play devil's advocate for a moment, Sobe . . . and see if a certain perspective can be introduced. You said:


I see a lot of things on this message board from cross dressers who say that this is who they are, it's natural, get over it. Of course, I'm paraphrasing, but it seems like a lot of CDers can't understand why a GG SO would have a problem with it. I'd like to shed a little light.

Now, I understand that part of your thesis is based on those GG's who learn about the CDing after marriage -- often a good while after marriage. That aspect though, as crucial as it is, doesn't really matter in this particular responsive scenario if you will bear with me! Your initial statement went on to say:


A lot of what a relationship is comes from attraction. You are attracted to your partner in various ways. You are attracted to their personality, their aspirations and goals, how they treat you. You are also attracted to how they look and act.

When we, all of us, get in a relationship, our decision to be with someone is largely based on those attractions. If cross dressing is introduced years after the start of a relationship, attraction can be the biggest issue.

Essentially, the cross dresser is introducing a lot of new behavior and appearances. Where we were attracted to your rough appearance, you are now clean and hair free. Where we were attracted to your strength, you are now much more feminine and light.

A lot of attraction also comes from how you, all of us, look. I, for example, like men. I don't find women attractive. I'm not bi or gay. This can be a problem. Although you as cross dressers ARE men, when you are presenting as women, SOs like me have a hard time finding you attractive. We may even be repulsed. It isn't because you're a crossdresser, but because we just don't like girls.

Sobe, the main scenario I want to play out is as follows: a man and a woman meet on a first date. Perhaps they met on the internet and had been talking, developing a sense of commonality that they both found attractive enough to pursue. Perhaps it is a blind date, but they talk and find common ground to take another step.

NOW, on this first date, the GG wears a sassy skirt and an attractive blouse -- nice jewelry and shoes. The man wears a simple pair of slacks and a Polo shirt. The two have an interesting "first date" talking about things in common, general likes and dislikes, family, backgrounds, etc.

The two like each other enough to plan a second date. On the second date, the GG wears a coordinated flouncy, attractive skirt and blouse; the man, again, wears a nice Polo and slacks. Then there is the another date . . . she wears a cute pair of capris (he's again in a nice Polo and slacks).

The next dates are much the same . . . romance is budding. To paraphrase one famous sportscaster you, "get the picture." Now, without much planning, romance turns into the ultimate of physical consumation! Okay, so here is where I divide into two different scenarios . . .

Scenario One: things progress romantically. After their first romantic encounter (which was more of a "get a room" nature), the next romantic encounters are a little more planned. IOW, they meet, and in getting prepared, she always puts on a cute nightie; he just strips to bikini satin undershorts (they're men's -- or are they -- oh, who can tell when they're black and the lights are low).

In this first scenario, romance turns to commitment (I am not trying to skip over the vital components of a vibrant, healthy committed relationship -- presume for argument's sake that they are there). The passion of their initial dating and then becoming committed turns into everyday life. (There's a certain psychology to this change, but it isn't significant to this discussion -- that it is natural is all that is being said.) All of a sudden, she rarely wears a skirt; jeans become common attire -- and nighties give way to almost constantly wearing one of his t-shirts to bed (b/c it is more comfortable to her) -- even her silky bikini panties have given way to plain cotton ones. Given the few facts I have presented, has he married a CDer? Even a partial CDer? Is her wearing his t-shirts to bed -- b/c it is what she prefers for a myriad of reasons -- a deception??? She might even put on a pair of his boxers.

NOPE!!! She is considered "chic'," "en vogue," and sexy. (Think about the movie The American President, when Annette Benning's character goes to the President's bathroom and come out wearing nothing but one of his dress shirts! A CDer? NOPE!!! It was meant to be a sexy scene!!! (What if the "President Shepherd" character had then excused himself and come back out in a nightie. Sexy? NOPE -- he'd of been a freak by many! What if he had come out in a lavish Roman silk mini-like dress, like a Caesar (and there are nighties that emulate such attire) -- normal or something's wrong compared with what is society's current norms?!!

Our GM still goes to work in a Polo and slacks, or in a suit. Our GG, the chase now over, almost exclusively wears pants and a blouse (and often a blouse -- like a french cuff -- that is sort of manly).

We all should be able to see the inconsitency of what is and isn't considered normal . . . but, that said, take the same scenario, EXCEPT, after the first session of love-making, the GM tells the GG something to the effect of, "You know, I LOVE nothing better than the feel of silky against silky when we are in bed." She asks what he means, and he explains he would love nothing more than the silky feeling of BOTH of them wearing thigh-hi's and nighties. She says okay -- so they do, and it is acceptable, if not exciting to them both. Later she says she's more comfortable in a t-shirt at night, but he can wear what feels best to him, and he says okay.

An entirely different situation I'd think!!!

WHAT IS IMPORTANT, is that both are free to be who they feel they are in sense and attire, without ridicule or fear of rejection. In fact, dig a little deeper, and both see that in a very real sense, much of what you speak of concerning "attraction" is really from within the person. Sure, there might be some adjustments to seeing something unfamiliar, but it is what is within that ultimately is the winning factor regarding true attraction.

WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT: there is a VERY GOOD CHANCE that how the GM treats the SO (treatment that she loves) actually extends from his "second self." This gets brought up from time-to-time, but perhaps not often enough. What is on the inside is the most important thing!!! I acknowledge some can't get past the trappings -- most especially if they weren't made known until after marriage -- still, the clothing is just the outward expression of part of the inner self -- and it is that inner self that is what makes up the person's strength of character! How would the GG feel if the GM said, can't deal with this man's t-shirt bit . . . makes me feel weired, etc.?!! Wouldn't most GG's think such was ridiculous -- wouldn't they think (and I've known many who think just this way) why should it matter, I want to be comfortable when I sleep, I don't like nightgowns (they strangle me, or they bunch up wrong, etc.), and t-shirts are what I find comfortable, so what's the big deal???

I think I have been on here long enouh for most to know that I advocate truth about CDing way before marriage -- that I think it only fair so that both partners are free to search their souls and see where they fall on the issue, assuming it is an issue. The bottom line is it boils down to subjective v. objecvtive!

Sobe: you have brought up many crucial issues. What I have said here is ONLY a comment to just a small portion, and granted, I have put certain issue criteria that drives my scenarios in one specific direction (for example, knowing before marriage, and consistency of thought in practice). Regardless, while every situation is different, there are some issues that are inherent to a CDers very being that, IMHO, I believe we should look at the other side of each and every coin! You leave little possibility for support and acceptance, but support and acceptance IS possible!!! Moreso, I would think, when the issues are out front long before marriage -- but still quite possible when revealed/learned after marriage.

Di GG said it so succinctly:


Maybe thinking about love in this way...it might help . . . The way a person looks, their physical appearance,or what they wear isn’t as important as their inner looks, or soul. We fall in love with someone’s soul, And We fall in love with their heart. With their inner self. With their true being. And that’s what matters most. And if you look at it that way.....regardless of the clothes or hair or whatever...they are the same person.

By the way: what is the big deal about body hair and shaving? I know so many non-CDers who shave regularly for various reasons -- it is quite common in certain sports. And, coming back from Las Vegas for the second time this year, where we have seen a number of shows, I can tell you, there are many male performers who shave. Go see Celine Dions show: there isn't a hair on the chest, arms, legs, pits of the males in her show. It just isn't that big of a deal. I live in a very small town type atmosphere and I guarantee you that I have never heard "comment one" about my shaving. Well, I stray afield . . .

[JenniferR771]

Sobe,
thanks for the GG insights. Thinker and a writer, too.
But I love your avatar--perhaps you are an artist. How did you take the picture?

[AmberCdCutie]

i'm really glad to see a post from a gg on how she feels about
women's perceptions. it's an important subject that you don't
run across a whole lot. (somewhate, but not a lot).

i do believe that many women feel that way, and it's important
to understand that mentality (and fact), but many women
react differently.

regardless, thank you.