Rights in Relationships

[Valerie Nicole]

I have a question for everyone here...and I might take some heat for asking this...but keep in mind I am not trying to express an opinion, just get an answer. I would especially like to hear from the GGs, but responses from anybody and everybody are welcome.

If a CDer (MtF in this example, but it really could be either) is dating a non CDing GG, and the GG does not know about the CDing...is the CDer really obligated to share this information with his girlfriend? I mean, he does it only in private, has told nobody, and its something he does for himself. Does his girlfriend have a right to know what he does? What if they get engaged? Does she have a right then? What if they get married? Does she have a right then?

Suppose that, for some magical reason, it is absolutely impossible for the CDer to be discovered accidentally. This means that his girlfriend/fiance/wife can't become aware of his CDing unless he comes out to her. No doubt that it may be deceptive on the CDers part to tell her, but if she is completely unaware of the deception and it will remain that way forever, is the deception really damaging to the relationship?

I know it's a little complicated and that I've asked a lot of questions in this post, so I'll just sum it up now. At what point and under what circumstances (if any) does an SO have a right to know that her partner is a CDer? Or, in other words, at what point and under what circumstances (if any) is a CDer required to come out to their partner?

[Marla S]

Simple answer.
YES she has the right.
It is mandatory that she knows.
And it should be mandatory that she nows at least before marriage (I know that needs the CD to accept him/herself first. The tricky part of it, and not always possible, the more as some CDs seem to hope their desire would fade due to the relationship.)

An SO has a free will too, and she has the right to make a free decision, which should be based on the truth.

One of the most important things in a relationship is trustfulness.
That is hard to get or maintain if there are secrets of considerable impact.

[RobertaFermina]

When the relationship turns from 'dating' and 'fun' toward 'courtship' and 'marriage' or the like. THEN she has a right to know *NOW*.

And the CD male has a right to know all your secrets too!

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Chantelle CD]

Ill answer all the questions in 1 answer

If two people come together in love, they become one together, so close, you dont even need words to know when something is wrong, you can see it in her, as you know there is something wrong with yourself. Any deception compromises this connection, i believe.

chantelle

[Sheila]

As a GG who found out after being in the relationship for over 2 1/2yrs before I discovered/found out by accident discovered I mean ......... and still in the relationship 10 months later, I can truely say it hurt it hurt so bad that I feel this way on occasions ........ not often but enough to write this

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60229


So I guess my answer would be as soon as you think this relationship is heading somewhere
hope this helps

[Sandra]

I would say the SO has a right to know as soon as possible but definalty before things get to serious.

If the CDer wants their patrner to trust them then yes they should come out to them, because if they don't and the SO finds out later, it causes a lot of hurt on both sides.

[Tree GG]

When you can answer that question with "I don't", then you'll understand.

[Daintre]

One of the things you gain as you grow older is hindsight and this tool becomes very useful. When you are young, you don't see the consequences of your actions, intentional deceit and not being upfront will cause a rift in any relationship which is based on truth. You certainly shouldn't worry about telling the girlfriend until you are serious about the relationship, then you have to be up front and honest. This way, she has the option to accept you and your "quirks" or end the relationship.

[fionasboots]

The scenario you describe is somewhat implausible for a start but even if you could approach this supposed ideal I suspect that it would be hell rather than the heaven you seem to think it would be.

For a start you would have an SO that is either completely and totally naive or who just doesn't care about you enough to notice details such as the shaved legs and immaculate nails :heehee:

Also you have effectively trapped yourself in the closet forever with no means of escape. This means you maintain CDing but can never grow further with it - sounds good now, but do you really want to be stuck forever?

The ideal is not a scenario where you'll never be caught, it's where you have a partner that accepts, understands, supports and even encourages you with the CDing.

Taking the deception route is pretty selfish, but objectively there may be good reasons. However taking this approach when you don't have to is frankly dumb; try and find an accepting partner instead, it'll be better for both of you in the long run!

Oh, and in reality something always gives, either your SO finds out by accident or you crack and tell them - in both cases you're likely to have a huge mess on your hands!

[Valerie Nicole]

I definitely should have mentioned this in my first post, but I was trying to remain as objective as possible. First of all, I do myself believe that it is best for the relationship to share this part of myself very early on. That is my policy and my standard operating procedure. That's what happened with my last (and so far only) girlfriend. In fact, she knew before we even started dating. I also agree that the scenario I described is not ideal, and it was never meant to be. It was supposed to be a situation in which the relationship could not be affected by the CDing unless the CDer wanted it to be.

Hope that clears up the misunderstandings.

Edit: I'm going to add an additional question, then. If a partner has the right to know that a CDer is a CDer, then does the CDer have the right to a partner who is going to accept them? I mean, would you consider it fair or unfair if a relationship were to be ended by the CDer on the grounds that their partner wasn't accepting enough?

[fionasboots]

You often don't get what you may consider to be things that you have a right to, that's just life.

If the relationship ends because your partner can't accept your CDing - whether they or you end things - it's really not a case of being fair or unfair, it's just how things are.

To quote (well paraphrase really): "Give me the strength to change the things I can and the grace to accept those that I can't".

Also paraphrasing: Screaming "unfair" at the universe is unlikely to gain you much apart from a sore throat. It's best just to get on ans enjoy yourself and find other people that you enjoy being with who enjoy your company and, well just to lots of enjoying and stop worrying about rights and such :D

[Megan72]

Valerie: to me a relationship is a choice that two people agree to enter into - together. I prefer to make my decisions based upon the most complete information possible, therefore, if one person hides a pertinent aspect of information then I am incapable of making an informed decision. (god that sounds like the boy talking there!!)

What if your SO had cancer and might pass in a couple of years, do you think then you would have the right to know this information? I think I would like to know. It may not be the deciding factor in my choice but it would be nice to know regardless. So the answer for me is yes SO's have the right to know about not just CDing but all of the little quirks and idiosyncrasy's in our life. That way they know whether or not to get involved with the other.

[Valerie Nicole]

Part of the question is whether or not crossdressing, in and of itself, has any effect on the relationship. If I had a partner that didn't know I dress, so she never had to see it, and there was absolutely no way she could ever find out about it, would the crossdressing really have an effect on the relationship? I think that's at the heart of what I'm asking.

[Andi]

I guess it depends on how you embrace the meaning of "Significant Other" (a person who is important to one's well-being). Either she is and therefore worth revealing everything there is about yourself or she isn't in which case you're just playing games.

[EricaCD]

Just for grins (and because it has been a while since I got good and flamed here), I'll dissent from the consensus in part.

Starting point: I believe that a couple in a relationship has the right to know all information that would be material to their relationship, and that we should err on the side of TMI rather than too little. That said, I emphatically do NOT agree (and I will venture to opine that Helene feels the same way) that a couple is obligated to share every single detail of their existences.

From that starting point, I think the question of whether you have to tell depends from case to case. I will hasten to say that for most CDs, the fact of our crossdressing probably is material and should be disclosed. However, to take an extreme straw man case:

- very occasional cd
- limited to periodic underdressing
- never in public, no photos, no fem profile
- strictly for the erotic thrill
- perfectly comfortable with it
- nothing in SO's background to suggest a visceral objection (e.g. religion, moral conservatism, etc.)
- unambiguous about gender and sexual orientations

Well, in that case I don't know that a harmless sexual kink is something that automatically must be disclosed.

The reason I am a little cautious about giving this answer is that we all know that crossdressing desires can evolve over time. God knows mine did. So I would probably recommend that any CD give serious thought to the possibility of such an evolution, and whether you might be in a position to disclose this part of yourself at a time when your SO does NOT have the ability to make an informed decision as to your relationship.

And for those who think that the risk of evolving preferences means that even an occasional cd should always tell, well... that's not an unreasonable position either. I'm just a little leery of this unchecked assertion that "yes your SO automatically has an absolute right to know everything about you before making any sort of emotional commitment to a relationship."

Fire away.
Erica

[Cai]

This question brings up some of the same moral/ethical questions that a relationship with a post-op TS does. If a post-op is totally passable, even in bed, then this approaches the scenario you talked about with there being very little (or no) chance of the SO finding out.

So does the SO have a right to know about the natal sex of their partner? I think yes, for the same reasons that the SO should know about the closet CDing. First, it's a rather large deception, and that's never good for relationships. Second, knowing that your SO accepts every part of you makes you so much closer.

And to answer the second question: I do think CDers and TS's have the right to an SO that accepts them. But as said before, we don't always get things that should be our right. If your SO doesn't accept you for who you are, that's not a healthy relationship. But in the case of someone who's been married/together for a long time, and they tell their SO, who doesn't want anything to do with it - I wouldn't see that alone as being enough to end the relationship.

[Ashley1]

Erica has stated my case better than I can. I think that there are very few people in this world who have told their SO or spouse every thing about themselves. If such people exist, they should try walking on water.:hugs:
:love:
Ashley

[Megan72]

Erica has stated my case better than I can. I think that there are very few people in this world who have told their SO or spouse every thing about themselves. If such people exist, they should try walking on water.:hugs:
:love:
Ashley

No doubt that is the reality. But it does not negate the ethical questions raised in this thread.

[Sheila]

Part of the question is whether or not crossdressing, in and of itself, has any effect on the relationship. If I had a partner that didn't know I dress, so she never had to see it, and there was absolutely no way she could ever find out about it, would the crossdressing really have an effect on the relationship? I think that's at the heart of what I'm asking.

If you are hiding an important part of you you are, then yes I think that it would eventually have an effect on your relationship ........ just my 0.02

[Holly]

Part of the question is whether or not crossdressing, in and of itself, has any effect on the relationship. If I had a partner that didn't know I dress, so she never had to see it, and there was absolutely no way she could ever find out about it, would the crossdressing really have an effect on the relationship? I think that's at the heart of what I'm asking.Yes, it will have an effect. Whether the SO knows or should know is inmaterial... the CDer will know that a deception is being made and THAT WILL AFFECT THEM. The CD will act and react differently. The CD would always have to be on guard and never be able to truly be them self. That's way too high a price to pay.

[Stephenie S]

Just put the shoe on the other foot.

At what point would YOU want to know if your wife/SO was trying to pretend she was a man in private. If you can say never, and mean it, then you have your answer.

Stephie

[DawnL]

Valerie Nicole,
I can't speak for anyone else but it seems to me that crossdressing is a part of who I am and why I feel the way I do about other things in life. When it came back into my life I had to tell my wife. I had no idea what her reaction would be but I had to tell her. If she was not supportive then we would have to work on that. How can she know who I am if she doesn't know this major part of me?

[Chrysoprase]

At what point and under what circumstances (if any) does an SO have a right to know that her partner is a CDer? Or, in other words, at what point and under what circumstances (if any) is a CDer required to come out to their partner?

When its serious enough to use the word partner. A date here or there is one thing, but everyone has the right to know who they are in a serious relationship with.

[Alice B]

If the relationship is to be serious and lead to a long range partnership and possible marriage, you MUST TELL HER. Her acceptance is the key to the relationship lasting. For her to find out after the fact leads to mis-trust and failure of the relationship. The chances are that she already knows or already suspects anyway. Be bold. truthful, honest, etc. You have seen this this comment many times if you have been paying attention to this forumn.:hugs:

[fionasboots]

I still think that rights and ethics and morals in this context are just an excuse to hide away from the reality of life.

Taking the example that hi24home suggested; should a post-op TS tell an SO about their original gender, you can argue all sorts of ways from a moral/ethical perspective. However, once you take real life into account all these arguments are irrelevant.

For example, how would friends and relatives of a post-OP TS react to an SO that didn't know. Would some want to tell? Would some act oddly if the whole TS topic ever came up? Would parents/relatives feel and act awkwardly around a partner they may consider to be the wrong gender for their child? Or maybe they would just be over-protective.

Taking CDing, as Erica suggests it is the kind of thing that evolves over time and what was once easy to contain gets a little unwieldy when you have several suitcases crammed with clothes and your SO notices lipstick marks on glasses you were drinking out of.

From my experience, sooner or later an SO will either find out or you will actually want to tell, either because you feel it's right or you simply want the person you care about to know.

So I'd say again, rights/wrongs/morals/ethics are essentially irrelevant, from a practical and even selfish point of view it's likely to be best to tell up-front so you get a partner that's best for you.

[battybattybats]

Actually I think that rights, ethics and morals are absolutely applicable to every case. That's what they exist for :)

Firstly I believe everyone has a right to privacy, even in relationships. There are reasons why having privacy is normally in lists of what makes up a healthy relationship and not having privacy is in the lists of unhealthy or abusive relationships.

That said there are simple factors involved.
Can the CD be sure they will never be found out? No, no-one can be sure, only confidant at best.

Can the CD be sure that they will never want SO participation or to be out or full time? No. They can only be certain of the present and guess at the future.

Is it right for the CD to make choices 'in the best interest of' the SO instead of informing them and letting them make up there own minds. Nope.

Therefore for the best interests of all concerned the most moral and ethical choice is to inform the SO asap... in most circumstances. There are times when that is not always the case and if a CD finds themselves dressing only years after already marrying, if the SO has already expressed transphobic opinions that are unlikely to shift and I'm sure a host of other reasons then it can be right to keep it private.

[Kerry Owens]

It's hard to say, but if you reach the point you're serious...and you realize she just might be getting serious too, it's time to start talking. Lots and lots of talking, explaining and understanding is needed. Because you have to take the discussions at her pace.
Break the news at a relaxed time, and if you want to break it gradually that's good too. But, be honest. She's going to have questions and fears too, and once the lack of knowledge has been filled in most of the time fear isn't the problem. Most women are not handicapped by attitudes from the past, those who cannot deal with the truth, well... there are other ladies.
Accepting GG's are not a myth, neither are they opinionless. We have understanding, wonderful crossdressers who took the time, and patience to explain, and to listen to our feelings in turn. It really does work out that simply.

[Dasein9]

I find it difficult to imagine wanting to be with someone with whom I can't share an important part of who I am. If I can't tell this person how I like to dress, how could I ever let them close enough to... well, you know...? ;)

As for the later-asked question, Yes, a CD absolutely, positively has the right to a partner who is accepting, and non-acceptance of CD-ing is certainly a reason to end a relationship.

[Lawren]

Since that kind of magic does not exist that is a moot point.

As for the rest of it, it depends on where you draw the line between "absolute truth" and "little white lies".

IMHO, if you are seriously dating then you are already in a relationship and that requires honesty. If you intend to continue dating, then she has every right to know. If you do not intend to continue dating, then you are just using her and that is worse than not coming out to her.

Come on, Guys. What is so scary about being honest. Especially with the one you love the most.

[marie354]

Any of the relationships that I've had in the past where I tried to keep it a secret, never worked out well.

Now the ones where I was honest about my inner self, worked much better.

It's probably harder on you by keeping it hidden in the long run.
:hugs:

[Tree GG]

... I emphatically do NOT agree (and I will venture to opine that Helene feels the same way) that a couple is obligated to share every single detail of their existences...

...Well, in that case I don't know that a harmless sexual kink is something that automatically must be disclosed...

... "yes your SO automatically has an absolute right to know everything about you before making any sort of emotional commitment to a relationship."

Erica

BANG! :winking: In above order:

I would agree - we don't need to know every single detail about each other. There are things I've done (way in past when we were young) that he doesn't know about. He doesn't know because it's behavior I'm not proud of and have not, will not even at gun point, repeat again. There are things he's done that he hasn't disclosed fully to me for same reasons. Forgive, forget and move on. Since most CDers intend to repeat this behavior, it is not a "mistake" and to hide it insinuates shame, wrongfulness and fear. None of those are healthy - especially in an intimate relationship. How can you give/receive unconditional love if you're feeling at risk of being judged and found unworthy by your partner? I don't think it can be done for the long term.

WRONG - there are no harmless, sexual kinks in a monogamous relationship. If we'd agreed to an "open" deal, that's one thing. The "woman in the mirror" is a very real betrayal to a wife. Right or wrong - it's still an issue. Of course, he didn't understand that objection at all - and in fairness I couldn't really logically justify that position. I just know how it felt. Those with more open, free-thinking sex lives, please disregard my comments. :blushing:

If you want to be loved for who you are, all your facets, and you know those facets exist, I believe you do have the obligation to be as honest as you can be and your partner (GG SO or otherwise) has the right to know what those facets are. "Everything" is unrealistic and too absolute, but TGness is not just a minor quirk. It's as least as important as knowing you like to sleep with the window open.

I will now go away :happy::hiding:

[ErikaLeigh]

Well here is a little different twist. My wife of 14 years just recently found out. She told me that she didnt think she could have handled it if I had told her years ago. Also like a lot of CDs, I thought the urges would go away when I got married, WRONG!!! but they didnt come back for several years. In hindsight if I had known then what I know now, I would have done things differently and told her upfront. My wife is somewhat accepting, tollerant at best, and is OK with me shaving my legs, wearing panties and toenail polish, but thats her boundry. She doesnt want to see or hear about anything more. Our relationship has grown closer now that there are no secrets.

Bottom line is if you are in a relationship, it will be a much better and closer if you disclose yourself before it gets too serious.

Also, listen to the ladies on this site, they know what they are talking about from experience and can guide you through things. I have gained more info and help in the last year and a half from this site than in the previous 38 years of my life.

[Denielleinheels]

to each their own. If you are in a relationship and it could be the one, she/he needs to know... otherwise it is lying through omission. How can you have a seriouse relationship if you are only bringing half of you to the table?

[battybattybats]

WRONG - there are no harmless, sexual kinks in a monogamous relationship. If we'd agreed to an "open" deal, that's one thing. The "woman in the mirror" is a very real betrayal to a wife. Right or wrong - it's still an issue. Of course, he didn't understand that objection at all - and in fairness I couldn't really logically justify that position. I just know how it felt. Those with more open, free-thinking sex lives, please disregard my comments. :blushing:



Hmm... I've seen this sort of response before with a variety of things... it seems connected to a very strict concept of what constitutes monogamy that is very difficult for most human beings to fit into but that is assumed to exist universally or be not only the ideal but the norm. When I have seen those views held by others it has often been attached to views that being attracted even unconciously to anyone else constitutes direct overt cheating, that fantasizing and such is also cheating, that are very critical of other women especially those who are promiscuous, very competitive interactions with other women and frequently attaching blame on women in cheating situations (rather than equal responsibility of both in an affair).

Now I'm not saying that this is the case with you, but I wonder if common views/expectations on an extreme and often unrealistic idealised form of monogamy and an extremely competitive environment among many women for the attention of men might be a big part of many womens issues with a variety of things including crossdressing.

[KarenMichelleLuv]

Valerie,

I’ve read and returned to this post several times since you placed it. The title of your post “Rights in Relationships” brings to the surface a number of interrelated issues in the areas of morals, ethics, honesty, self, perception, security to name a few. The context you have placed these questions is clearly focused in the framework of the existing significant other or potential significant other relationships.

After reading a number of the replies to this set of questions or scenarios, I’m going to throw in my 2 cents. And to be clear where KarenMichelle is coming from, you should all know that I am a closeted/stealth cross dresser who has enjoyed being out in public from time to time. I'm also in a 14 year relationship and marriage with a wonderful woman. Please forgive the length of this post. It's just the way I organize my thoughts.


Rights in Relationships

To begin with, the term “Rights” is an incredibly loaded word. It invokes thoughts of “The Bill of Rights”, “Entitlements”, “Guarantees”, “Security”, “Magna Carta”, “legal”, “marital”, I could go on and on. The fact of the matter is that the logistics of a relationship are primarily defined by the individuals within it. The participant’s life experiences leading up to the entering into mature significant relationship are their own. These experiences create your moral and ethical framework which colors the way you view and interact with others. Society contributes to this by holding up to the population in general the ideals that are to be emulated. Many times these ideals are codified into relationship law. So why the remedial lesson regarding the concept of individual “relationship rights”? Because the real issue as I see is “Expectations in a Relationship” or I think a better phrase would be “Expectations of a Relationship”.

The whole attraction, friendship, falling in love, promise of commitment, being in love, loving the relationship phases of relationships is experienced based on your upbringing and your own past experiences. How you’ve grown from both negative and positive experiences sets you up for your next relationship. Those darn expectations will drive you forward in search of a life partner. The important thing is to be able to articulate your expectations to those who are expected to “satisfy” some aspect of them.

There is no absolute “right” by any individual to have access to any aspects of the experiences, thoughts, dreams and nightmares that make up the partner standing in front of you. Only through shared communication and agreement do you obtain this knowledge. Depending on each individuals moral beliefs and/or ethical boundaries they will own a scale of self image, openness, privacy and honesty. You can only be true to yourself based on your scale. You can’t be true to someone else’s scale unless it is within your boundaries and beliefs. Whether they know it or not the person with the more encompassing scale tends to be the more tolerant and forgiving partner in the relationship.

It’s easy to utter the phrase “Honesty is the Best Policy” but we all know and can cite examples where we would not expect someone we care about to follow this rule.


If a CDer (MtF in this example, but it really could be either) is dating a non CDing GG, and the GG does not know about the CDing...is the CDer really obligated to share this information with his girlfriend? I mean, he does it only in private, has told nobody, and its something he does for himself. Does his girlfriend have a right to know what he does? What if they get engaged? Does she have a right then? What if they get married? Does she have a right then?

In response to the question noted above, the answer is an absolute no! I believe that this "right" does not exist but I also believe that it may be beneficial that you share this information in some way shape or form. If the couple have talked about the important things in and to their relationship and these would include views and opinions about life, love, dreams, spirituality, honesty, ethics, sexuality, fantasies, expectations in a relationship, etc., then the groundwork for opening up to each other has been laid. If the couple is not at the point where these conversational topics have been discussed, they shouldn’t be thinking about marriage. Any couple who is at the conversational levels noted above is probably ready for the volunteering of a little fact that one of the partner’s “enjoys CDing”.

A little more on the “expectations in a relationship” conversation. If you, the CDer , don’t lay the groundwork for your fantasys, needs or image issues, then you are short changing yourself. You might admit that you are androgynous of mind and really enjoy both male and female points of view, fashions, whatever. This is not far off the truth that you also enjoy CDing and that this contributes to who you are.

By the way, this whole response is NOT oriented to those individuals who are in the “I want to where women’s cloths 24/7” or the “I’m really thinking that I want to transition” crowds. For those in either of these mindsets, I would advise that openness is the best policy. Why?, because, both of these desires will affect you significantly and your existence in your world and therefore your potential SO’s world also.


Suppose that, for some magical reason, it is absolutely impossible for the CDer to be discovered accidentally. This means that his girlfriend/fiancé/wife can't become aware of his CDing unless he comes out to her. No doubt that it may be deceptive on the CDers part to tell her, but if she is completely unaware of the deception and it will remain that way forever, is the deception really damaging to the relationship?

In response to the question noted above, the answer is again absolute no! To site my own example, I know that there are events and experiences from my wife’s past that I will never know about. I don’t know the details of all her past relationships and I have no need to know. I love the women who is presenting herself to me and our marriage here and now. She has even told me that there are issues/experiences from her past that she is not proud of, and I accept that. If presented with one of these issues, I’m not likely to feel betrayed because I have been forewarned.

In respect to her, I present the male looking, slightly androgynous, humorous guy she met, fell in loved with and married. This person also includes most of the personality and mental aspects of KarenMichelle, except the actual cross dressing. KarenMichelle is alive within my mind and personality always and she gets to exist in the real world from time to time, and she likes it this way. My wife knows that I have cross dressed in the past, and it was not an issue when it came up. It is entirely possible that she knows that I still cross dress but this has not become an issue in our marriage or relationship. KarenMichelle is always a part of me and she comes out frequently in my total personality. She never takes time that has been committed to my marriage, to my children, to my other family and friends or to my business. She gets to come alive fully only during some of my private time and this is enough for her. BTW - I will admit that KarenMichelle has completed some of my client projects from time to time, but this is because I get to work alone for many hours at a time.

My response to those the live in the “Must always be honest or the relationship is a lie” fog is, “please grow up and smell the roses”. Relationships need and require secrets. Managed well, these become or contribute to your mystique! It is my firm belief that both males and females possess mystique.


I know it's a little complicated and that I've asked a lot of questions in this post, so I'll just sum it up now. At what point and under what circumstances (if any) does an SO have a right to know that her partner is a CDer? Or, in other words, at what point and under what circumstances (if any) is a CDer required to come out to their partner?

Basically, if a CDer is at the point where they are abandoning time that could otherwise be spent with their SO and/or their family in order to “be”, then you’re heading down a slippery slope. You need to rethink your CDing and your relationships and which is most important to you.

If KarenMichelle got into trouble and needed to be rescued, bailed out, or whatever I would call and/or tell my wife, even if those circumstances would finish “outing” me.

OK, That's it from my POV. Be Gentle...

[battybattybats]

I've been considering the rights/boundaries issue a lot lately. Here is a partial list I've been thinking of.... based on the basic premise of equality...
This is also based on the assumption that each person concerned is a sane adult human with a normal level of intelligence (so that they are capable of giving informed consent).

1. Each person has total control and the last say over their own bodies and possessions.
2. Each person has the right to make requests on the other of any kind whatsoever but no right to assume that they could/should receive consent on that.
3. Each person may change their minds or withdraw consent for something involving their person or possessions at any time Including any and all compromises reached or restrictions previously agreed to.
4. Each person may choose to leave the relationship at any time for any reason. If either feels incapable of doing so because of any reason, that is a serious problem and requires immediate attention as it is unfair to both parties.
5. Neither person should seek to prevent the free exercise of any of these rights in any way for any reason beyond a simple request with no strings attached or the offer of a fair bargain neither of which should be assumed to be accepted.
6. Compromises or bargains do not exist in a way to ‘allow’ the fair use of these rights. The use of the right is the given and any compromise of that right is the voluntary exception. No compromise should be assumed to exist or is to be expected.
7. Accepting the rights and free use of those rights is the responsibility of both parties regardless of whether the fair use of that right is something that goes against the wishes, agenda, values, judgement or intent of the other after fair and reasonable requests have been made. If that is too difficult then proffessional help must be obtained in coping with that. Of course right 4. is always in effect as an alternative.
8. Coersion is unacceptable and inadvertent coersion must be prevented or undone if and when it occurs. Manipulative behaviour or allowing things like the danger of suicide to continue in such a way as it is or might be perceived to be an influence on the free and fair use of these rights in unacceptable.

I realise that for many people these rights would be very challenging, however I cannot see how they cannot exist based on simple notions of equality, moderate or greater free will etc. (For example were right 1. not to be true I shudder at the horrors that could be justified!)...

[Sheri 4242]

An SO has a free will too, and she has the right to make a free decision, which should be based on the truth. One of the most important things in a relationship is trustfulness. That is hard to get or maintain if there are secrets of considerable impact.

If you are just starting to date, then no. The early stages of dating are where two people are starting to see if their personalities jive. BUT, if that stage of dating starts to progress to something more, then, at some point you are obligated (IMHO) to tell. Marla S. was very right, in re an SO having free will. If we want the foundation of all that comes as a relationship grows to be solid, we shouldn't be making decisions for the other person -- decisions that are their's and their's alone to answer and/or make.

Actually, Valerie Nicole, the answer is buried within you summation:


I know it's a little complicated and that I've asked a lot of questions in this post, so I'll just sum it up now. At what point and under what circumstances (if any) does an SO have a right to know that her partner is a CDer? Or, in other words, at what point and under what circumstances (if any) is a CDer required to come out to their partner?

You see, within what you've asked lies a fundamental component of a vibrant and healthy marriage -- and that is "intimacy." I am NOT talking about "sex," b/c "intimacy" is much more than sexual relations. Intimacy is that quality of closeness that comes from deep within. You cannot have true intimacy without truth and trust -- and you cannot have truth and trust if a part of what you are is being withheld. Deceit and/or deception are the antithesis of intimacy.

[battybattybats]

Basically, if a CDer is at the point where they are abandoning time that could otherwise be spent with their SO and/or their family in order to “be”, then you’re heading down a slippery slope. You need to rethink your CDing and your relationships and which is most important to you.

I don't see an either choice as remotely reasonable. Clearly both are important. The issue then is 'what proportion of investment in each will provide the best balance to maximise your endeavors with both'.

If the CD is spending all the time with the family and none on the CDing they need then they could be heading down just as slippery a slope.. one filled with frustration, resentment and the power to destroy the relationship as well.

[KarenMichelleLuv]

Batty...


I don't see an either choice as remotely reasonable. Clearly both are important. The issue then is 'what proportion of investment in each will provide the best balance to maximise your endeavors with both'.

If the CD is spending all the time with the family and none on the CDing they need then they could be heading down just as slippery a slope.. one filled with frustration, resentment and the power to destroy the relationship as well.

I see your point on this. I agree that there is a balance needed and that the "'what proportion of investment in each" decision will make for a happier human overall.