Dismantle the male persona?

[Nicole]

Some of you may be familiar with Dr. Carl Bushong. He provides telephone-based counseling and referrals for transgendered people of all stripes. He says:

My main job is to help each person to first "be themselves," not just the product of society’s or others’ expectations. I call this shift in thinking "finding the natural you," as compared to the "normal" you (what you are supposed to be or do).

My second and equally important job is to help trans people to transition as completely as they desire. It is for them to decide how far, how fast, and in what way to change. Unfortunately, as people rely more and more on the Internet, I am regularly contacted by people who just don't get good results -- results from hormone therapies, surgeries, and electrolysis that are less than expected or desired.

Sounds promising, but he then makes a curious statement in his "three levels of transition" (at the bottom of this page (http://www.doctorbushong.com/pubs/what_is_gender.asp)):

Becoming one's True Self — This is the last but unfortunately least experienced part of transitioning. This is the stage when that little girl trapped inside an artificial male persona in order to fit in, breaks free, grows up and has her own life — often with markedly different values, temperament and interests.

It has been my observation that the female self needs little help in growing up and developing if the overpowering weight of the male persona is removed from it. The transgender individual has spent years, decades developing, reinforcing and living in their male role. Dismantling the male persona takes a great deal of time, effort and outside help. But, an individual's sense of happiness and success is directly parallel with the degree they have dismantled their male identity, not on their age, physical size, hormones, surgery, etc.

Interesting.

So, then, how does one go about dismantling the male persona? Is this even wise to attempt? Some might argue that they have no male persona to begin with (yet still seek guidance & affirmation). Others might point out that "male" and "female" personas are largely subjective, and thus by "dismantling" them one may never be sure if it is the "true" persona or not.

Questions abound. Would blocking testosterone via spironolactone provide a hormonal "preview" of the "suppressed feminine persona"? Less testosterone means a weaker male persona, at least hormonally. Might that be enough? Betty (Helen Boyd's husband) has admitted to taking spiro for "maintaining perspective". Perhaps for this very reason?

Or perhaps Dr. Bushong engages the patient in a steady program of mental training? Something that incorporates daily affirmations, voice training, mannerisms, meditation, etc, until the neural pathways prefer the "new" programming?

I think our perspective plays a heavy hand in how we assess ourselves. So, how can we "overcome" something that really isn't a "thing" but a collection of attitudes, behaviors, and stereotypes?

[GypsyKaren]

Hi Karen

This is quite interesting indeed, I may have to come back to this several times as there's a lot to consider and think about. I know it sure wasn't something real I had to remove, it was more like smoke and mirrors that kept shifting as I took swipes at it, more like playing a role my entire life and then suddenly tossing the script and start winging it.

I wish I could say there was any one thing that I did to get to where I'm at with myself now, and I had the further complications of severe bipolar disorder and PTSD to deal with on top of this. I'd say it was just a steady pattern of growth until I finally got to the "Sink or Swim" stage and just screamed "F**k It!" and decided to go for it all.

Did the hormones help or play a factor? Not really, because I reached that stage quite a whiles before I started HRT, though I will say that they now perhaps give me a different perspective on things. They give me what I call "Oh Yeah" moments, it's kinda like finding new pages in a book you read a long time ago and thought you knew, but were still missing something that you didn't realize was there.

I think it's all part of that never ending "Road to Ourselves", you just gotta stay on it and see where it leads, then figure out a way to deal with it. Whatever you want to call the thing we all wrap ourselves in, be it persona or what not, it's still basically a wall we build inside to protect us from the forces that be, whether imagined or real. There's two ways to knock down a wall, either piece by piece with due care, or smash it all to hell, either way will do the trick. The key to success in my opinion isn't how you do it, but making sure you clean up and remove the wreckage left behind before you trip on it, for then you have a clear path to continue your journey...interesting thread!

[Kate Simmons]

Huh? Dismantle the male persona? Not sure I'd want to, even if I ever decided to transition as the male
"experience" has been a learning thing for me. I'm not sure if there really is such a thing and kind of agree with Karen that it is probably more smoke and mirrors than we give it credit for. Seems we "learned" to act this way growing up but for me it was never anything more than a facade I created mostly for others. In other places I've described where, despite what I was physically, I always considered myself a girl and somewhat of a tomboy most of my life. I fail to the description of "girl" as opposed to "boy" but really it's an overall personage with feelings.
That is what develops first in any case and if we decide we need to transition, the physical part follows. We are all who we are and just want that to be reflected in whatever degree we feel is necessary to be ourselves and be comfortable. I've never felt there was an over riding "male persona" that kept me captive. At any time, I could have chosen to go the route of SRS but for many reasons decided not to pursue it.
It's good to do research but the problem sometimes is that we may lose sight of the real goal which is to become ourselves and become empowered as such. Taking ownership of ourselves is just that. We are responsible for what we do and for who we are. I'm not saying that specialists and experts in the field don't know what they are talking about, only that in the final analysis, we have to decide what is best for ourselves and how to proceed and that is the bottom line. This is part of the mystery of life and the wonder of being.:happy:

[Ms. Donna]

The following are, of course, all my opinion...

I would steer clear of this site for a number of reasons: too much medical and pseudo-medical mumbo-jumbo, questionable theories and ill-defined categories.

First, the whole Genetic Gender / Physical Gender / Brain Gender bit. These are, more properly, sex and not gender. While gender is often used interchangeably for sex, gender is more accurately "the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex." And while all the pics and such are, um, interesting - it is, IMO, a small part of the issues with which we deal.

Then there is the whole 'brain sex' thing, which is nothing more than Cisgendered, stereotyped thinking masquerading as pseudo-science. For example:

Female brained individuals cannot and do not separate how they feel about a person (good, bad, nice, boring, etc.) and how they see them sexually. They must feel positive about a person as an individual in order to sexually desire them. Male brained individuals have a distant disconnect between feelings about a person as an individual and as a sex object. Males can easily, sometimes preferably, have sex with a person they don't know, don't like or even actively dislike. Love and sex are two different worlds for the male brained. These two worlds can come together, and for most this is preferred, but it is not necessary, and for some, not even desired.

For female brained individuals, environmental factors are very important when it comes to sexual contact. Such things as lighting (candles, soft lighting), smells, sensual bedding, music and a "romantic" ambiance are important to erotic feelings and fantasies. Males can have sex anywhere, any time, any place with equal gusto. Sex in the bed, car or dark room with a stranger are all equivalent.
All I can say to this is, "Spare me, please..." These are learned, modeled behaviors - not 'hard wired' behaviors.

Finally is gender identity. His three categories are, um, simplistic and limiting to say the least. His definition of 'transgenderist' is questionable: I've always heard it used to describe people who live in their target full / part time without the physical aspects of transition - nothing about steering "away from gender role extremes and perfect an androgynous presentation of gender." Genderqueer / androgyne are better 'labels' for this - if they are needed at all. Also, the whole 'primary' and 'secondary' transsexual classification is outdated and marginalizing: with primary transsexuals being considered 'true' transsexuals and secondary transsexuals being, well, less true I guess.

What more accurately describes things is that there is a range of desires and needs: some manifest themselves early and some later in life. Some can be managed by crossdressing, some by a 'social transition' and others only by transitioning in the transsexual sense. Can those transitioning later in life be see as having gone though stages? Of course, but that does not undermine the validity of their needs.

As for your original question. One's 'male persona' is little more than a collection stereotypically categorized personality traits. For anything you can class as 'male', you can find a woman who embodies the same trait. It is an arbitrary classification at best. Also, anyone who trans has never really developed this stereotypical 'male persona'. Sure, we might have tried to cultivate it in an attempt drown out the 'noise' in our heads and possibly even convinced ourselves that we were this 'real man'. But at some point, the wall starts to crack and eventually crumble - and the fortifications we built to keep the noise out are ultimately breeched.

The following is from a post (http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/community/showthread.php?p=105825#post105825) I made over at mHB:

What does it means to be trans? For me, trans is just another part of who I am - a part which really does not 'factor in' to much of my life. There are so many (most) things I do which are neither masculine nor feminine - neither cis or trans. I think we tend to (super)impose trans on aspects of our lives which simply do not require it. Making music, taking pictures, programming, tinkering, repairs, etc - there is nothing 'gendered' about these activities. I feel no more 'feminine' shopping for clothes or makeup than I do 'masculine' hanging out a Guitar Center or Home Depot. Maybe it's just me. I enjoy these things, but not in an overtly 'gendered' way.


As far as I'm concerned, I have no 'male persona' - nor do I have a 'female persona'. There is (and always was) just me: a collection of thoughts, ideas, feelings and expressions - and they are only as 'male' or as 'female' as I choose them to be.

Hormones and hormone blockers are almost guaranteed of effect you emotionally and that in itself may 'change your perspective' - they will not, however, change who you are. While the anecdotal evidence varies greatly, the overall theme suggests that they help 'clarify' things. I dunno - I do think that there is certain degree of 'placebo effect' and wish fulfillment happening in these cases: people getting what they want, if you will. But then there are those who, like Sarah Lake over on mHB who will attest to the overwhelming positive effect of hormones she has experienced. It is very much a YMMV situation.

Personally, I don't think you need pills to achieve the paradigm shift - if in fact you need a shift at all. Some serious introspection and a willingness to accept what you find are all that is required. I have written up my self acceptance guideline (http://wanderingaloud.wordpress.com/self-acceptance/) - basically how I sorted most of this out - if you're interested.

No pills required. :)

Regards,
Donna

[Cai]

I can't see why you'd want to dismantle any part of your persona, masculine or feminine. I'm coming at this from the other direction, but I know that I don't want to become any sort of stereotypical guy. I don't want to lose some of the softer things that are part of my feminine side, and I certainly don't want to dismantle a part of me that I lived as for my entire childhood. I'm a guy that likes Star Trek and watching police chases on TV, but I'm also tender to animals and I love working with children. Why would I want to dismantle that?

Both the masculine and feminine personas make up who I am. I don't see any reason to lose one of them, no matter what some gender therapist says.

[Holly]

Why dismantle anything? The truth of the matter is simply this... we are all the sum of all our parts. If you take away any part of yourself, then quite simply, you are no longer you. I would no sooner dismantle the male persona in myself (I enjoy being the provider and protector) than I would the female persona (I equally enjoy being nurturing and vulnerable). Take any piece of a puzzle away and the picture is now incomplete.

The real key to success is to take those elements the comprise the complete you and put them though your own values filter. Those elements that assist you in achieving a satisfying life, hang on to those. Those elements that do not, either modify them or get rid of them. You must become the one who determines what is right and good for you, not some artificial social standard.

[Sharon]

I agree with Donna about that site -- it's just a bunch of nonsense, conjecturing, and generalities in my opinion.

That said, I can agree that there is a self-created male persona that I have striven to eradicate from myself since accepting myself as I am. These traits are the ones I adopted since childhood to mask the "real" me from the world -- the emotional barriers I created to protect me from discovery, the eradication of visible emotions, the belief that I could exist without others, and so forth.

As far as hormones playing a part in assuming a female persona -- it's not going to happen. Hormones, while they can affect you emotionally, do not change the person you are. This is something you have to consciously wish to do.

[Nicole]

Thanks everyone for your input. This thread was posted near the end of my night shift, which no doubt explains its shotgun Q&A approach. Sorry about that. :)

Donna, I particularly liked these words of yours: "There is (and always was) just me: a collection of thoughts, ideas, feelings and expressions - and they are only as 'male' or as 'female' as I choose them to be."

Well said. "Dismantling" is such a severe word to use in conjunction with "persona", isn't it? Psychic surgery that obliterates part of the self? No thank you. However, I have found a grain of truth in his words. By yielding parts of my persona to the female side, I have experienced a higher overall level of satisfaction with my life.

And with that, I am off to read your Self Acceptance blog entry. :)

[Toyah]

Is it just me here that has a female look but no female inclination, the guy me is much the same, only difference is the clothes feel so good I am a bit happier as Toyah but to be honest not much

[Lisa Maren]

Hi

I never really did things because I was trying to be a guy. I did things because I liked them or because I was following my genuine response to it. That said, I did feel pressure to behave in some more masculine ways, but it never felt authentic to do so. For instance, I remember getting pelted with a snowball in junior high (this was in MA -- only the Sierra Nevadas and maybe some parts of the Cascades really get snow in California). I yelped, of course, being five feet tall and less than ninety pounds. One of the two guys who'd thrown the damb snowball started giving me a hard time about... being a whimp or whatever nonsense he was spewing. :chatterbox: lol I managed to "defuse the situation" by simply pointing out that he was much bigger than me and what doesn't hurt him does hurt me.

I could not understand why it would be so important or desirable to be able to get hit with a snowball and not yelp when it hurt. :bonk: I still don't get it. :heehee:

This might not be masculine, but males are pressured to be like that, at least from my own experience.

I believe there is such a thing as a "male persona" in the sense of what results (meaning behavioral coping strategies) when a person in the wrong biological body is forced to try to "conform" to social demands. At least in my own case, that persona was never very authentic. I was able to pick up on what was or was not acceptable to my parents from a very early age and, being the pushover I was (seriously, I was one), I started using that "knowledge" forthwith to "behave".

I don't know, I guess you could call me bohemian. I am moved when there is something to be moved about. I read what's interesting (and lots of things interest me). I express what I'm feeling, musically and poetically. I live in my own little world where almost everything is interesting and almost nothing is a waste of time. Beauty, freedom, truth and love. That about sums me up. :happy: I don't really pay any attention to whether these things are masculine or feminine (at least not outside of using them as guidelines only -- nothing absolute -- to figure out where I stand) because I would never in a million years have fit in anyway, even if I were cisgendered.

Hugs,
Lisa

[Kimberley]

I dont ascribe to that line of thought at all. What it does is provide and avenue for supposition and excuses.

I am of the opinion that one cannot dismantle one's personality and let's face it, that what we are talking about. I believe that recognition of the suppressed person by the dominant is the road to self acceptance. Self acceptance means discarding all the old and negatives that were in the way of happiness. The theory Dr. Bushong is proposing is one of constructing (perhaps erroneously) a personna.

IMHO this is nature vs. nurture. I'll take the former thank you.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[livy_m_b]

My so says I pick up feminine behaviors and forgo masculine behaviors very readily - is that dismantling the male persona? It's more a matter of acknowledging which behaviors it feels more right to emulate. I don't regard those as dismantling only as being oneself.

But if it means learning to stop doing those things that developed artificially as a reaction formation to more or less socially coerced masculine behaviors, for example, anger, aggression, unrelenting competitiveness, etc., by all means, do what you can to dismantle those.

[SL]

Hm. A very interesting article.
And not at all what I thought I'd get out of it.
Hard to say what I would think really having not read the entire article. But based on what I got from what Nicole read, I would say "yes" if he's not talking about how you feel/think, and is instead tallking about all the adopted actions that we....well....adopted so that we would "fit in" with a bunch of people who were supposed to be the others of us.

And I think I only got that because of something I unexpectedly experienced last nite; which was realizing how much of that adopted s*** was gone. I didn't know it and it sorta shook me up. By and large I have during the most resent parts (we will call "recent" the last 5 of 16) of my journey agreed most strongly with Ms. Donna, in post #4, when she said


There are so many (most) things I do which are neither masculine nor feminine - neither cis or trans. I think we tend to (super)impose trans on aspects of our lives which simply do not require it. Making music, taking pictures, programming, tinkering, repairs, etc - there is nothing 'gendered' about these activities. I feel no more 'feminine' shopping for clothes or makeup than I do 'masculine' hanging out a Guitar Center or Home Depot. Maybe it's just me. I enjoy these things, but not in an overtly 'gendered' way.


Tying that to this "reaction/realization" I had with myself: I realized all of a sudden that by having said at some point "forget it, its all a bunch of b.s. this deciding if this or that is male or female, I'm just gonna be" that by the time the other night happened and I 'looked" at me I had in fact transitioned greatly without trying or realizing I was doing it. It was like by not trying I had actually accomplished a vast majority of it. And it shook me up.