The cultural fault line

[sherri]

According to an article in Friday's New York Times, TGs at a number of U.S. college campuses are agitating for gender-neutral restrooms, and college administrations are complying with that demand. A law professor at the University of Chicago was quoted as saying, "bathrooms have become a cultural fault line." The ED of the Washington-based Gender Public Advocacy Coalition says "These kids are demanding the right to be who they are and what they are 24/7. They're tired of being harassed or hassled when they simply need to use a public facility."

The movement is not confined to campuses. 35-year-old TS Riki Dennis of San Francisco became active in the 250-member People in Search of Safe Restrooms after being physically assaulted by an irate boyfriend of another woman at a rest stop restroom north of Santa Barbara. So far, five cities now have "regulations protecting public restroom access based on 'gender identity', which refers to a person's internal sense of gender rather than their birth sex."

Interesting, isn't it, that the issue that may bring the TG agenda to the forefront of public awareness is the need to tinkle.

Another interesting observation in the article is that today's young TGs of both sexes are content with a more fluid identity as compared to previous generations of TGs who have sought sex transformation through hormones and surgery. I take that to mean that young TGs aren't as interested in anatomical or physiological alteration, or as preoccupied with sexual stereotypes, as older TGs.

[Holly]

Sherry, this IS interesting and yet, in a way not surprising. There is a "need" to tinkle and a "need" for the TGed to be true to ourselves. Everyone should have the freedom to be themselves without the fear of physical harm. As we all know, that has not always been the case for ANYONE whom society has viewed as being "different" or "abnormal."

And I'm inclined to agree with the youth that gender identity should be more "fluid" than it has been viewed in the past. Gender, after all, is mainly a state of mind while sex is determined by biology.

I say Hooray for the youth!

[Priscilla1018]

gender identity should be more"fluid" than it has been viewed in the past..Gender,after all,is mainly a state of mind while sex is determined by biology [QUOTE=Holly].
Maybe we should all dress and take over the toilets of the world,this could be the start of the Transgender Revolution.
The youth of today are certainly more accepting than the world we grew up in.This is a good thing.

Love and Hugs,
Priscilla

[Wendy me]

now not showing a bit of my age but things on the tv and outher places now that were like un heard of now go on like thats just the way things are . gays for one you
never heard a lot abought never mind tv shows that are not only haveing them in but are abought them so with the bathroom issues starting to change ..........maybe one day we just might see the world as i see it. ..........wendys way we are all just people none better than the next we just are gendre or dress ...........we just are..........
maybe just a dream but who knows maybe one day we can all just be and enjoy one anouther .......no titles just people ...........restrooms then.............................

[AnnaMaria]

While sitting here eating chocolate and reading I realize that we may just be in for a change in society in the near future. With all that is going on with todays youth we may just be seeing the begining of a time when the only thing that matters is that you are a person.

I just hope that none of the older politicians suddenly decide to interject their belief systems on us just because they think that they are doing what is "Best" for the country. No matter what country they happen to be from.

Maybe our children are actually smarter than we are and we just havn't taken the time to figure that out just yet. It sure sounds like it to me.

huggs
anna

[Rachel Ann]

Please see also http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6041

"Unisex" rest rooms are not that unusual nowadays, often due to architectural limitations.

In one place I remember, the urinals were next to a wall by the door, at right angles to the stalls, so the ladies had to stand in a line next to the men peeing. Most of them turned their back. Of course, this setup made the stalls more or less unavailable to the men.

I remember a club that had two doors marked "yellow" and "blue".

[wilma]

I have a chevron station close to where I work and they have 2 bathrooms. Both have male and female symbols on the doors and are for both sexes. One occupancy at a time. LOL Wilma

[Helana]

Please see also http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6041

"Unisex" rest rooms are not that unusual nowadays, often due to architectural limitations.

In one place I remember, the urinals were next to a wall by the door, at right angles to the stalls, so the ladies had to stand in a line next to the men peeing. Most of them turned their back. Of course, this setup made the stalls more or less unavailable to the men.

I remember a club that had two doors marked "yellow" and "blue".

Maybe the solution is to get rid of urinals altogether and make men sit down to pee as well. :D

[Rachel Ann]

Maybe the solution is to get rid of urinals altogether and make men sit down to pee as well. :DI think that this would meet with massive political resistance. :p Of course in the US it's not what happens but who will have to pay for it. That's why we haven't gone metric. So, every auto mechanic has to have two sets of tools. There would have to be relief acts for urinal manufacturers and owners of buildings that must remodel. :rolleyes:

Of course, back in the cocaine era, all the guys wanted to use the stalls. ;)

[sherri]

Sherry, this IS interesting and yet, in a way not surprising. There is a "need" to tinkle and a "need" for the TGed to be true to ourselves. Everyone should have the freedom to be themselves without the fear of physical harm. Maybe it's not surprising that the more liberal institutions of higher learning are recognizing TG needs, and that there will be a ripple effect out into society at large. But what is intriguing to me is the scenario of straight people in a public building encountering three restrooms — a blatant announcement that they may encounter a TG in the building. There all kinds of connotations associated with that situation.


Gender, after all, is mainly a state of mind while sex is determined by biology. I wouldn't say this is technically true, but that is apparently the interpretation these kids are espousing. It sounds like the way this is going to play out is that a young guy may express femininity in behavior and appearance without necessarily adopting the female stereotype as thoroughly as his older peers.


"Unisex" rest rooms are not that unusual nowadays, often due to architectural limitations. Maybe it's not unusual in San Francisco — it is one of the five cities that have regulatory policies in place — but out here in the land of the silent majority, it is still a rarity. And when you do encounter unisex restrooms around here, I'm reasonably sure they are not there in recognition of the needs of TGs. Using one of them in drag is still apt to cause a scene, especially if there's someone else in there.

According to the Times article, unisex restrooms are being added to the mix in buildings rather than displacing segregated facilities, thus adding to the plumbing rather than reducing it.


Maybe the solution is to get rid of urinals altogether and make men sit down to pee as well. :D Actually, I think that's exactly what is being done in the new restrooms described in the article. No more urinals. Let's hope the CDs either sit down or raise the seat. :)

[AnnaMaria]

My biggest concern with getting ride of the urinals is in the fact that most men don't bother to lift the seat and thus make a mess during their visit. Especially the drunks.

Of course we could always adopt the military design that I have seen so many times in the past. urinals in both so there is on need for concern. The room can be used be either without any adjustment or question. Of course most of these restrooms were in barracks and not in public spaces but it is an idea.

huggs
anna

[Danielle1960]

I find it interesting that cultures around the world all have different tolerences for the TS/CD comunity. Although we are very behind in alot of ways I think we are progressing as a soceity. Interesting enough I don't feel all that comfortable in pulblic restrooms as a rule. Especially if they are in remote locations or not well lit. In the world of survival of the fitest, I think anyone is a potential victum of crime. As far as using a facility. As long as one doesn't stick out like a sore thumb then being descreet and quick will usually work. Of course this is probably obvious to everyone and I hope I didn't steer this thread to far off course.
Danielle :)

[Sharon]

Is it realistic to expect either private or public companies to go to the expense of altering their restrooms just to accomodate a relative handful of crossdressers? Look how long it took to implement the laws concerning making restrooms accessable to the physically disabled, and they have had effective lobbying organizations for years, unlike CD's and TG's who are splintered into seemingly countless tiny groups.
We have been managing this public restroom stuff for eons, with little notice or uproar. With continued decorum and intelligence, we can manage to handle things indefinitely, even though it is admittedly frustrating at times. This isn't a Utopia we're living in, let's just realize that it just isn't practical to try to accomodate every special interest group.

[sherri]

Is it realistic to expect either private or public companies to go to the expense of altering their restrooms just to accomodate a relative handful of crossdressers? Look how long it took to implement the laws concerning making restrooms accessable to the physically disabled, and they have had effective lobbying organizations for years, unlike CD's and TG's who are splintered into seemingly countless tiny groups.
We have been managing this public restroom stuff for eons, with little notice or uproar. With continued decorum and intelligence, we can manage to handle things indefinitely, even though it is admittedly frustrating at times. This isn't a Utopia we're living in, let's just realize that it just isn't practical to try to accomodate every special interest group. I agree in large part with your thoughts, but the fact is that this special interest accomodation is occurring as we speak, whether we think it's practical or not. Who knows how prevalent it will become?

I imagine we all tire of special interest groups clamoring for their "rights", but the reality is that in this counrty a predisposition to humor them has evolved, stemming from successful civil liberties initiatives dating back to the sixties.

The number of unisex restroom facilities installed specifically to accomodate TGs is still relatively small — just a few colleges and government buildings so far. In the five states that are regulating the issue, mandated restroom installations aren't widespread yet, so presumably the practical effect is that neither public or private facilities can discourage TGs from using the restroom of their choice. Should enough TGs begin to capitalize on this protection in these states, I suppose that resentment from straight bathroom users could force public and private entities to revise their facilities and/or policies accordingly.

It will be interesting to watch. Whereas the general public has been blissfully ignorant of TGs by and large, all it takes is one encounter of a third restroom to bring the whole thing into sharp focus. Like I said, the need to pee could be the gatekeeper issue.

[sherri]

Is it realistic to expect either private or public companies to go to the expense of altering their restrooms just to accomodate a relative handful of crossdressers? Look how long it took to implement the laws concerning making restrooms accessable to the physically disabled, and they have had effective lobbying organizations for years, unlike CD's and TG's who are splintered into seemingly countless tiny groups.
We have been managing this public restroom stuff for eons, with little notice or uproar. With continued decorum and intelligence, we can manage to handle things indefinitely, even though it is admittedly frustrating at times. This isn't a Utopia we're living in, let's just realize that it just isn't practical to try to accomodate every special interest group. I agree in large part with your thoughts, but the fact is that this special interest accomodation is occurring as we speak, whether we think it's practical or not. Who knows how prevalent it will become?

I imagine we all tire of special interest groups clamoring for their "rights", but the reality is that in this counrty a predisposition to humor them has evolved, stemming from successful civil liberties initiatives dating back to the sixties.

The number of unisex restroom facilities installed specifically to accomodate TGs is still relatively small — just a few colleges and government buildings so far. In the five states that are regulating the issue, mandated restroom installations aren't widespread yet, so presumably the practical effect is that neither public or private facilities can discourage TGs from using the restroom of their choice. Should enough TGs begin to capitalize on this protection in these states, I suppose that resentment from straight bathroom users could force public and private entities to revise their facilities and/or policies accordingly.

It will be interesting to watch. Whereas the general public has been blissfully ignorant of TGs by and large, all it takes is one encounter of a third restroom to bring the whole thing into sharp focus. Like I said, the need to pee could be the gatekeeper issue.

[Rachel Ann]

Maybe {unisex bathrooms are} not unusual in San Francisco — it is one of the five cities that have regulatory policies in place — but out here in the land of the silent majority, it is still a rarity. And when you do encounter unisex restrooms around here, I'm reasonably sure they are not there in recognition of the needs of TGs. Using one of them in drag is still apt to cause a scene, especially if there's someone else in there.Most unisex bathrooms are still one person at a time. Even in and around San Francisco, things are still problematic. A pre-op TS friend of mine was arrested in the ladies' room at a store in a mall. A GG in the room went to store security, who detained her until the police arrived.

Even though she carried a letter from her doctor explaining that she was transitioning, the DA still gave her a choice between pleading to a petty misdemeanor and having a very public trial on more serious charges. We're sure that this had to do with politics - pressure put on the DA's office by the owners of the store and the mall.

Oh well, better to use the Ladies' and risk that than to use the Mens' and risk getting bones broken.

[Jadeanne]

I only dress up in women's clothing at home, but I have noticed most malls and a number of highway rest stops have a separate restroom labelled as "family" or "assisted".

Just today my wife and I were at a mall and I noticed a person dressed as a male leaving the family restroom.

A favorite Saturday breakfast restaurant has a unisex restroom arrangement, with two small individual rooms, each with a toilet and sink.

Jadeanne

[Rachel Ann]

Just today my wife and I were at a mall and I noticed a person dressed as a male leaving the family restroom.I try never to complain about advantages that GGs have. Because, I think that on the whole, they still get the short end of the stick in life. We're just sort of "skimming the cream off the top" of femininity.

However, I'll never forget a conversation I had with one of my dumber GFs when we had pulled off the highway at a gas station. After she came out of the ladies', I was still waiting for someone to come out of the gent's. She said "oh, just use the ladies' room, I use the mens' room all the time". I said "you risk embarassment but I risk arrest on sexual misconduct charges".