my Pals will be the death of me

[unclejoann]

Over the past year I have made a larger and larger commitment to dressing, so finally two weeks ago I order by PALS breast forms. I ordered them to be sent to my PO Box, of course. After waiting two weeks because they were on backorder, I finally got notification tonight that they have been shipped ... to my home address.

My life is over.

Nice knowing you all, I have really enjoyed it, but I don't see how I am going to get out of this one. My wife feels no hesitation in opening packages addressed to me and she is taking the next couple of days off.

No way out, no way out, no way out.

[Kerrie Sifton]

Wishing you well Jo,, two options, be home for the mail, or have a talk with your spouse about a suprise that you were planning, or a third... level with her about your passions.... good luck

[marie354]

Don't worry too much. UPS ground usually takes about 3 days anyway.
True, they are faster sometimes, but in my experience, 3 days is the minimum.
:hugs:

[GACountrygal]

Wishing you well Jo,, two options, be home for the mail, or have a talk with your spouse about a suprise that you were planning, or a third... level with her about your passions.... good luck

:thumbsup: what she said!!

[Joy Carter]

Wishing you well Jo,, two options, be home for the mail, or have a talk with your spouse about a suprise that you were planning, or a third... level with her about your passions.... good luck

Ditto's Hun !

[angelfire]

Good luck either way. The suggestions proposed already seem to be the best ones. Other option would be take the next few days off work as well so yuo can get the mail before she gets to it.

[Sheri 4242]

I like the idea about getting to the mail first. (You could put in a stop delivery order, but then your wife would be suspcious b/c you didn't get any mail for however many days. Good side: you could go to the PO to pick up all the held mail.)

Another option: tell her a package is coming and she is NOT to open it. When she asks why not, tell he she'll find out in due time (like her next birthday, or y'alls next anniversary, or even Christmas -- whatever) just tell her you are working on something extra special for an upcoming special date. DOWNSIDE: you are going to have to have something extra special for that future date, and it had better be good!!!

Last comment: maybe it is time to get honest with her?!! I cannot imagine a life without my wife knowing, approving, and supporting me for who and what I am!!!!!!!

[Rachel Morley]

Another option: tell her a package is coming and she is NOT to open it. When she asks why not, tell he she'll find out in due time (like her next birthday, or y'alls next anniversary, or even Christmas -- whatever) just tell her you are working on something extra special for an upcoming special date. DOWNSIDE: you are going to have to have something extra special for that future date, and it had better be good!!!
I agree with Barbara, this is what was going to suggest. :happy:

[prettywithsideburns]

possible lame excuses:

"hey, this matching set of novelty desk bells is defective!"

"baby, I just miss you so much when you're away..."

"the doctor diagnosed me with Adult Teething Disorder, and said I should nurse on these twice daily."

"I told the mattress store memory foam, not mammary foam!"

and if all else fails just say "hey, hey, hey, my eyes are up here!"

[aka.laura]

I agree with Barbara. when I lived with my parents I had similar problem: my mother had absolutely no respect for privacy. So I gave her the "birthday" story when I was waiting for a pair of highheels. It worked. You can't use it too often though :devil:

[Emily Ann Brown]

Oh we do manage to shoot ourselves in the foot don't we?


All I have to add is things have a way often of working out when we don't believe they will. Relax for now....plenty of time to panic when the bullets start whizzing overhead. GIGGLE GIGGLE


Emily Ann

[MJ]

oh my god i wish you well ... good luck

[Wendy me]

oh ni sorry laughing my butt off .... ok not funny ... well just a bit ....i would go with this ... Barbara, your so smart...



Another option: tell her a package is coming and she is NOT to open it. When she asks why not, tell he she'll find out in due time (like her next birthday, or y'alls next anniversary, or even Christmas -- whatever) just tell her you are working on something extra special for an upcoming special date. DOWNSIDE: you are going to have to have something extra special for that future date, and it had better be good!!!

[diane59]

The return address gives no clue as to whats inside, I just told my SO It was silicone boots for the speakers in my truck (being the company uses that word in its address), Only draw back is you can smell the Vanilla scent through the packaging:rolleyes:

[unclejoann]

I appreciate the suggestions, really. And there certainly is a side of me that just thinks this is funny (a side of me that might be taught a good lesson soon). But I didn't sleep very well and the first cup of coffee this morning tastes pretty weak ... I can't think.

I believe that I don't have to worry about today since they were only shipped yesterday (although I live close enough I should have just driven there and picked them up).

As far as an "understanding wife," all I can say that I came out a couple of years ago and got such a bad reaction that I happily just crawled back into the closet so that I wouldn't have to listen to it or see those expressions on her face.

[gmss]

Or, you could go to ups.com, plug in the tracking number, and change the shipping destination.

I can't remember the exact steps, but I'm sure you can do that.

If you call UPS I'm sure they will give you some options as well. Maybe you can have the package stopped when it gets to your home town, and then you can pick it up from there.

You're not sunk yet.

[Karren H]

Well haven't read the responses yet but if I were you I'd run to the post office and stop your mail for 3 days.. Like your going on vacation.. And mark that you will pick it up on what's ever day you want.. Don't have the resume delivery.. Check pick up at po.. Works great..

If its UPS then just call your local ups and tell them to hold the package for pickup... They do that.. Almost had a pair of padded panties and a gaff deliveried to the house by mistake... Called and they held it and I picked it up one evening...


Karren

[TxKimberly]

Well haven't read the responses yet but if I were you I'd run to the post office and stop your mail for 3 days.. Like your going on vacation.. And mark that you will pick it up on what's ever day you want.. Don't have the resume delivery.. Check pick up at po.. Works great..

If its UPS then just call your local ups and tell them to hold the package for pickup... They do that.. Almost had a pair of padded panties and a gaff deliveried to the house by mistake... Called and they held it and I picked it up one evening...


Karren

Not hard to tell Karen is an engineer - she always comes up with a way to beat the system, identify the week spots, and find the loop hole.
If they shipped my UPS or Fed Ex, you can often have these shippments rerouted if you contact them.

Kim

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

Karen just stole my thunder, she has all the right moves on and off the ice. And if you find any problems with her suggestions you can always bribe the ups man or the mail man to hold your package.

[paulaN]

UPS has all this tracking stuff going on. It should not be hard to reroute your package.

[Bobbi Lynn]

Get the tracking number, print it out, call the locale UPS office, give them the number and tell them to hold it "on station", you will pick it up yourself. I have this with parts I have ordered as I used to drive right by the UPS station and the FEDX office was very close too.

[Stephenie S]

Bobbi is right. Call UPS and tell them to hold the package for pickup at their facility. Get the tracking number from PALS and have it held for your pickup.

Steph

[Stacy GG]

:(
okay, this is lame, you have already come out to her..why hide then? she already knows , she's just in denial. If you can't change this part of yourself Why pretend you are someone you aren't?
Do you like living in a false reality?
Is this a fun way to live your life?
I would expect for most people the answer would be no. Maybe not for you. Truthfully you should think about counseling. I don't see why everyone is advocating you stay in the closet, it does not seem like a healthy way to deal with reality.
That's my :2c: take it or leave it . I just think you would be much happier in a relationship with an accepting partner. If you cannot get that in your current relationship you should think about couple counseling or if you have no children perhaps even moving on.

[Angie G]

OMG! good luck hun :hugs:
Angie

[unclejoann]

First of all, they ship USPS. So you don't quite get the same service as with UPS or FedEx. They mailed them yesterday. So, Karren's idea of stopping the mail was exactly what I had in mind (I'm an engineer too, but above ground).

My boyfriend also lost a lot of sleep last night worrying about this problem.

Couple counseling with my wife? Great idea, except that is what she does for a living! She IS a counselor.

And I ain't giving up my grandkids for nobody, no how. the closet is better.

And now to let you off the hook. They arrived today and I got to them first (they fit in the mailbox, and she was too distracted to get the mail today).

So, my darlings, I am so relieved, and so appreciative of you all. There IS an Elvis ... or whoever. And now I can learn to be more of the girl I am inside.

And the PALS are wonderful, I wish I had time for more than a quick look today. But tomorrow I am definitely bra shopping in earnest.

I'm still in shock.

PS I am giving the bird seed back to the birds.

[DianaGomez]

First of all, they ship USPS. So you don't quite get the same service as with UPS or FedEx. They mailed them yesterday. So, Karren's idea of stopping the mail was exactly what I had in mind (I'm an engineer too, but above ground).

My boyfriend also lost a lot of sleep last night worrying about this problem.

Couple counseling with my wife? Great idea, except that is what she does for a living! She IS a counselor.

And I ain't giving up my grandkids for nobody, no how. the closet is better.

And now to let you off the hook. They arrived today and I got to them first (they fit in the mailbox, and she was too distracted to get the mail today).

So, my darlings, I am so relieved, and so appreciative of you all. There IS an Elvis ... or whoever. And now I can learn to be more of the girl I am inside.

And the PALS are wonderful, I wish I had time for more than a quick look today. But tomorrow I am definitely bra shopping in earnest.

I'm still in shock.

PS I am giving the bird seed back to the birds.

And so the saga concludes, until the next installment!!!! Luved it hun! What pace! Really glad you got the things first though!

[carnut62]

You should get a PO box for future purchases. Just put down your femme name as someone to accept mail from. I tell them Tabitha is my step daughter and nobody asked any more questions. I have even received a UPS package at the USPS box and I don't know how.

Another tip for easy purchasing online is buy the Visa gift cards at the gas station or grocery store. I find the fee costs about as much as buying a bunch of money orders and is easier to use with purchases such as Pay pal and you get your items faster. Just login to the cards website and put in your femme name and po box as the cards address. Works great and I haven't had any issues yet.

Tabitha.

[Bobbie cd]

First of all, they ship USPS. So you don't quite get the same service as with UPS or FedEx. They mailed them yesterday. So, Karren's idea of stopping the mail was exactly what I had in mind (I'm an engineer too, but above ground).

My boyfriend also lost a lot of sleep last night worrying about this problem.

Couple counseling with my wife? Great idea, except that is what she does for a living! She IS a counselor.

And I ain't giving up my grandkids for nobody, no how. the closet is better.

And now to let you off the hook. They arrived today and I got to them first (they fit in the mailbox, and she was too distracted to get the mail today).

So, my darlings, I am so relieved, and so appreciative of you all. There IS an Elvis ... or whoever. And now I can learn to be more of the girl I am inside.

And the PALS are wonderful, I wish I had time for more than a quick look today. But tomorrow I am definitely bra shopping in earnest.

I'm still in shock.

PS I am giving the bird seed back to the birds.

First off, I am glad that it worked out OK for you this time hon, but, one sentence in your reply here really set off warning bells in my head. I don't know if this is a joke, or for real, but the thing about your "boyfriend" made me blink there! Being in the closet with your dressing when you have a non-supportive SO is one thing, but having any kind of relationship on the side is, as far as I am concerned, way out of bounds! Maybe I am just old fashioned, but I took my marriage vows very seriously. If my wife hadn't died, I firmly believe that we would still be married now, even though she was not supportive of my dressing. Just my :2c:

[cindybarnes]

This reminds me of my PO box mistake,, Big mistake. Even tho my wife had known about my dressing for years, I used a PO box for recieving mail order stuff. Well I must have clicked the wrong shipping option when ordering a wig and it was sent UPS instead of regular mail. UPS called the house and left a message that they cant deliver to my PO box. My wife called me mad as hell wanting to know why I had a PO box ? I will leave out the other details of that conversation since I dont need any more bad marks on my member history here and there is a church just a mile away :)
I had recieved wigs at home before, but it was easier to use the PO box than it was to hear complaints about my buying stuff. That was my only answer to my wife and it didnt go over well. My wife fealt I was being dishonest by using the PO box and it took a long time for her to stop bringing it up once or twice a week. That was maybe 5 years ago, I dont buy nearly as much as I used to,, running out of space, I dont hide my clothes, never did but now if I want something that has to come in the mail it comes here at home, I may take a little heat but for it but its nothing like the PO box dilema !
Cindy

[Victoria Anne]

Jo I am happy you have been sparred, I was not sure were to send the flowers...HaHa

[LindaG]

If it is coming though by the mailman call the postoffice and have them leave
no packages for you and to let you know that it is a surprise for you wife

[RebeccaLynne]

My boyfriend also lost a lot of sleep last night worrying about this problem.

And just how does your wife feel about you having a boyfriend? Or is this another deception on your part?

[shannonsilk]

I am in suspense. I'm glad it all worked out with the package and the PALS do seem like they would work well. I've seen some but not worn them.

but do tell.....boyfriend?

[unclejoann]

oh, so the boyfriend has become the issue here

what is a bi sexual supposed to do?

i love my wife, my life, myextended family .... but i want a man in my life

so what am i supposed to do?

i have a boyfriend

who also has a life and family and ...

straight is easy
gay is easy
bi is pretty darn difficult

please respond

[amanda barber]

oh, so the boyfriend has become the issue here

what is a bi sexual supposed to do?

i love my wife, my life, myextended family .... but i want a man in my life

so what am i supposed to do?

i have a boyfriend

who also has a life and family and ...

straight is easy
gay is easy
bi is pretty darn difficult

please respond

I've never really thought Bi meant "had to have both", just that it made finding a date that much easier before I settled down with someone. Honestly I think both people in the situation should know about each other. A non-monogamous relationship can be done with honesty.
Personally, the person I had to hide packages (or anything) from wouldn't be one of the people in that picture but thats just me.

[battybattybats]

I've never really thought Bi meant "had to have both", just that it made finding a date that much easier before I settled down with someone.

I've met some for whom needing both was the case. There was an interesting episode of recently axed womens tv show The Catch Up on married men having casual gay sex or romantic affairs and it seems a lot more common than a lot of people realise.

It would be a difficult situation to find oneself in. Can you be certain that you would lose these things if you were to be honest about your needs?


Couple counseling with my wife? Great idea, except that is what she does for a living! She IS a counselor.

Many counsellers make a point of regularly going to counselling to balance the effect their work can have on their own lives (This is where the ubiquitous Neitche quote about staring into the Abyss comes in). Dentists and doctors see fellow dentists and doctors too.. so I wouldn't rule out the effectiveness of counselling just because of her profession.

[MsJanessa]

well I think what you ought to do is at least get a private mail box someplace that just you have access to since you can't have stuff sent either to your home address or to your boyfriend's place---you do have My sympathy---leading two lives is very stressfull and exhausting---Maybe you could benefit with some counselling yourself---w/o your spouse. BTW your photo in your avatar is very attractive---I would reccommend a new wig, however to go with the PALS---you can get some very nice human hair ones and/or synthetic ones at HISANDHERHAIR.COM at VERY reasonable prices.

[unclejoann]

thanks MsJanessaa for the tip on wigs, I will definitely scrap the blue one

counseling ... ok, I will look into it.

[renee99]

The issue is not the boyfriend, it is the deception, and I am assuming what is a broken promise of monogamy.

[RebeccaLynne]

The issue is not the boyfriend, it is the deception, and I am assuming what is a broken promise of monogamy.

Thanks Renee, that is exactly the issue in question.

[unclejoann]

well, maybe we should start a thread asking how many of us have broken their vows. but to me the issue really is how to be bi. if you are straight or gay, you can choose one person and it kind of handles your sexual orientation. But when you are bi, you just aren't going to be complete with one (unless it is a very unusually supportive one). so what do you do?

this is a serious question. GLBT will ultimately have to solve the problem of the B. it is not easy if you are basing relationships on a monogamous model. i would love to hear a solution to this one.

[Holly]

Sorry Joann, but being bi does not give one carte blanche to have an affair. The bisexuality is irrelevant. It means you find both sexes physically attractive. You are married, right? So what difference does it make if you have an affair with a man or a woman? It's still an affair.

[Chantelle CD]

Sorry Joann, but being bi does not give one carte blanche to have an affair. The bisexuality is irrelevant. It means you find both sexes physically attractive. You are married, right? So what difference does it make if you have an affair with a man or a woman? It's still an affair.


Well said

[renee99]

well, maybe we should start a thread asking how many of us have broken their vows. but to me the issue really is how to be bi. if you are straight or gay, you can choose one person and it kind of handles your sexual orientation. But when you are bi, you just aren't going to be complete with one (unless it is a very unusually supportive one). so what do you do?

You admit your bisexuality to your partner, and attempt to work out an arrangement that includes safe sex and otherwise satisfies both of you. You do not deceive your spouse and break your vows in lieu of an arrangement. If you can't make an arrangement with your spouse or can't find a spouse who is willing, that's tough. Plenty of guys have desires they have to shelve when they get married. It just depends if the marriage and the associated promises are worth what they give up in return.

Don't you have enough respect for other people, and especially your chosen life partner, not to lie to them? That's personal integrity...

[loveaCD GG]

:(
okay, this is lame, you have already come out to her..why hide then? she already knows , she's just in denial. If you can't change this part of yourself Why pretend you are someone you aren't?
Do you like living in a false reality?
Is this a fun way to live your life?
I would expect for most people the answer would be no. Maybe not for you. Truthfully you should think about counseling. I don't see why everyone is advocating you stay in the closet, it does not seem like a healthy way to deal with reality.
That's my :2c: take it or leave it . I just think you would be much happier in a relationship with an accepting partner. If you cannot get that in your current relationship you should think about couple counseling or if you have no children perhaps even moving on.

I agree!

[Stephenie S]

Well I am not bisexual, I am straight. I am married. I am attracted to women. does that mean I can have an affair with another woman but not a man?

I don't understand your reasoning here. How does being bisexual give you the right to have a wife AND a boyfriend. Oh, your wife knows about your boyfriend? Why didn't you say so? That puts a whole other light on the subject. That seems OK to me. You just have an open marriage. Now I understand.

Stephie

[RebeccaLynne]

Nope, re-read 'em just in case. No admission to the wife of extra-marital hanky-panky thus far. Do we have the whole story? Does she? What about "forsaking all others"? Seems that's a cornerstone of marriage; did I miss something?

[BarbaraTalbot]

possible lame excuses:

"hey, this matching set of novelty desk bells is defective!"

"baby, I just miss you so much when you're away..."

"the doctor diagnosed me with Adult Teething Disorder, and said I should nurse on these twice daily."

"I told the mattress store memory foam, not mammary foam!"

and if all else fails just say "hey, hey, hey, my eyes are up here!"

OK that didn't actually roll me QUITE off the bed onto the floor laughing but it was in fact Out Loud. (as they say.)

Dee looked over I read 'em to her and we both liked them in them progressively more in the order you posted them.

[unclejoann]

I started this thread with another "almost got caught" story and since my last entry here have gotten a real moralistic slam from some of you. I suddenly hear "is that how you want to live your life?" I thought I had read stories on here before about leading a deceptive life, hiding our girlie clothes from wives, wives that don't understand us, and all that.

I told my first two wives about crossdressing and about having occasional sex with males. The current wife has been so negative about the dressing (and many other things where I have an independent opinion) that it just isn't worth trying to talk about these things. At this time in my life I consider myself lucky to have a real boyfriend and not just an occasional one-night-stand.

[Sally24]

oh, so the boyfriend has become the issue here

what is a bi sexual supposed to do?

i love my wife, my life, myextended family .... but i want a man in my life

so what am i supposed to do?
You do what most of the rest of the world does, you make the choice! If you're hetero, you choose one woman. If you're gay, you choose one man. If you're bi, you choose one! Just because you are attracted to either sex doesn't mean you get to have both. When you got married you made your choice. If she is up for an open marraige, that's one thing. Your dressing is another thing entirely. It doesn't break your vows and it is something you need to do. Dating or having an affair, however you classify this, is just wrong. Just because we aren't for the most part accepted by main stream society doesn't mean we don't have the same basic moral core that everyone else has. If you want to be supported by good people, you have to behave as good people yourself. Obviously this is not a black or white issue, but you are not being fair to your wife, your boyfriend or yourself. Suck it up and be an adult for gods sake!

[paulaN]

I will not slam you for having a bf. I will say in your defense and to some of the others here is. If your wifes said that your cd'ing is like you having an affair with another woman. How would you feel about that, and would you give up cd'ing because of her having these feelings. What works for one person may not work for someone else. Only you know what your own needs are, and how you chose to fill those needs is up to you.

[Stacy GG]

You admit your bisexuality to your partner, and attempt to work out an arrangement that includes safe sex and otherwise satisfies both of you. You do not deceive your spouse and break your vows in lieu of an arrangement. If you can't make an arrangement with your spouse or can't find a spouse who is willing, that's tough. Plenty of guys have desires they have to shelve when they get married. It just depends if the marriage and the associated promises are worth what they give up in return.

Don't you have enough respect for other people, and especially your chosen life partner, not to lie to them? That's personal integrity...

I agree with this, either you have an open relationship, or you do without.
elly is Bi and I've always been bi- curious. But neither of us has strayed outside of the marriage because we have made the commitment to be faithful to each other. I love elly dearly and would never dream of it anyway. That's the whole reason for marriage. You marry someone you love dearly enough you wouldn't want to hurt them.
Sure you might get away with it for now, but who's to say she won't find out later? The price will be very high if she finds out.


I thought I had read stories on here before about leading a deceptive life, hiding our girlie clothes from wives, wives that don't understand us, and all that.
Yes, those posts have been on this forum but that does not make it a good idea to practice being deceptive, eventually you get caught and then it's no longer fun & games. People get there feelings hurt and usually a divorce follows if the being "deceptive" involves cheating. Other things can be worked out, but if cheating is involved that takes alot of time & patience to work through. If the other party is willing to even try.
But you already said you don't like the moralizing so I'll stop now, because obviously you want to be selfish & have your cake & eat it too. :Angry3:

[Holly]

...I thought I had read stories on here before about leading a deceptive life, hiding our girlie clothes from wives, wives that don't understand us, and all that...You may have in fact read some such posts. If you had taken the time to read the responses however, you would see that the overwhelming response has consistantly been to be honest with their mate.


...I told my first two wives about crossdressing and about having occasional sex with males. The current wife has been so negative about the dressing (and many other things where I have an independent opinion) that it just isn't worth trying to talk about these things. At this time in my life I consider myself lucky to have a real boyfriend and not just an occasional one-night-stand.And here is the proof why honesty is so important. You have two failed marriages already. You run into some opposition and instead of putting some effort into trying to resolve them, you run off to the arms of another. Would you be accepting of your wife having and girlfriend (or boyfriend) on the side? If the boyfriend is doing it for you now, then have the decency to tell your wife that you and she are done and go and have a happy life with him. But you will find that trying to play the sympathy card (my wife/gf) just doesn't understand me and my needs doesn't work very well around here. :(

[unclejoann]

I never said anything about divorce, I didn't think of it with my earlier marriages and I am not thinking of it now. Both of my previouss spouses passed away. But now I understand, if I am hiding clothes from wife that alone is reason enough to just keep my mouth shut with some of you boys.

[Sally24]

But now I understand, if I am hiding clothes from wife that alone is reason enough to just keep my mouth shut with some of you boys.
You come here for interaction from others. This is not a forum room full of "yes" men (or women) who will cheer you on no matter what you do. If you want that go to some ditto heads like Rush Limba has. We will give you feedback, both positive and negative, if you are honest here. The problem here is not us, the problem is that you don't want to hear the truth about your own actions. We don't deny you the ability to behave as you feel is right for you. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you. We can empathize with you having an unapproving spouce. That is not deception, just disagreement. What we have a problem with is immoral/unfair behavior. If you can't be honest with us here and then take the critizism, just where are you going to get that frank input? All on this forum have the right to speak to any subject and be heard. If you don't like what you hear, then go onto another post.

[battybattybats]

Hmm... I am concerned by the emphasis of morality here. Because making moral judgements of others moral choices is unethical. I'm sorry but when judging other peoples actions ethics trumps morals.

Morality may have at its base religious dogma or social consesnsus. Sexism, racism, genocide and slavery were all moral. Let us please all accept the fact that these things were wrong and that therefore all ideas of morality should be personal and never extended to others. Ethics still involve choice, dependant on which school of philosophy of ethics one accepts..

So is having a bi affair ethical?
Yes and/or no. It depends on various circumstantial specifics. The general questions involve: was the person aware that they were bisexual when they married? Were they aware that their sexual needs required both sexual experiences before they got married? Had they gained self acceptance of these things before they got married? Was the marriage entered into truly freely without pressure of any sort involved including social pressure? An answer of No to any one of these can throw the argument into murky areas of grey where simple sound-bite moral statements can have no validity and much more complicated issues must be considered.

Needs. Now if the person requires sex with both then they do not need to make a choice and have only one partner, that is absurd we cannot assume that people should only have one partner at a time that is a moral imposition. There is the matter of vows however.. vows that are considered binding. (a notion that had many feminists considering marriage as an evil and repressive institution!) Humans in other circumstances have the right to change there minds with any agreement at any time. Individuals may consider those vows personally binding for philosophical or spiritual reasons but it is wrong of them to say that others must also do so, that is a personal choice. However honesty (and ethical responsibility) requires informed choice and so when someone opts out of an agreement (and that may be partially, one needn't give up on all the vows because they want to give up one) they would have to inform others directly affected to fulfil there responsibility.

Responsibility: Morality can easilly suggest that it is ok to lie to protect another from harm depending on an individuals or a cultures moral values (as explained before these are thoroughly not universal and it is bad to enforce them as such, after all the vast majority of people do not go for a week without a cornacopia of allegedly 'white' lies making honesty a relative value for most people) however ethically there is another simple issue involved. You cannot be 100% certain that the boyfriend is not sleeping with anyone else. Lets face it, there is a 30% to 50% chance (by current stats) that his wife is sleeping around! Therefore you cannot be 100% certain that, even with all possible precautions taken, there is no chance of spreading an std.

So, sleeping with anyone else without informing your partner is wrong. A wrong that is probably being carried out by 30%-50% of the people on this forum just like the rest of the population regardless of cries of the vocal majority here.

So what are the moral and ethical options involved at this point?

The ethical ideal would be for all the cheaters on this site to inform their partners. Even if that lead to the loss of the relationships invovled.

Then, the further ethical ideal would be for every one of those cheaters (including the 30%-50% of SO's who would be cheating) to come out publicly for the destruction of monogamy as a standard institution in society so that all those people may have there needs met ethically in polyamorous relationships. A massive revolution socially that would make the acceptance of gay and TG issues pale into insignificance.

As I doubt even 1% of these people would have the enormous courage required to do so (I in fact politely challenge them to start a thread in the lounge for them to come out in) then we must look to less decent, lesser of evils, alternatives.

Harm minimisation. Options include ending one relationship in favour of the other without informing the dumped partner of the real reasons involved (which may not be sustainable in the long term for someone who needs to have relationships with both genders) or keeping both relationships but using every single possible safe sex precaution and regular std checks (but the worst can stil occur...).

I seriously reccomend that anyone who considers trying to judge anothers choices or actions as wrong should really do a little research on the subject for a broader objective understanding rather than using their personal subjective moral compass to decide how others should act.
Might I suggest as a start the works of Noam Chomsky and Peter Singer for some recent arguments on values and ethics. For a basic grounding Plato, Socrates (who, for teaching young people to use philosophy to make judgements on right and wrong and for refusing to ever lie was sentenced to death!) and of course Aristotle. Hume, Hobbs, Locke, Descarte, Volatire and Kant are a useful bunch for understanding the ideas upon which are own society both legal and cultrural is substantially based.

30%-50% of people make vows they cannot keep. Partners of these people who expect them to be capable of keeping them are frequently being hurt. As long as people do not feel capable of owning up to that inability, as long as people are making vows before they know if they can keep them there is a big problem. Perhaps as long as people have an expectation of monogamy that is apparently unrealistic then we will have the problem?

[unclejoann]

Thank you Paula and Batty, for at least hinting that solutions to life's problems aren't always easy. When I said earlier "What is a bi person to do?" I really expected responses like Batty's, from people who are capable of discussion and sharing their own insight. There is not social model for bi people that I know of that allows the joys of relationship, parenthood, grandparenthood, and sexual fulfillment. I think it is the last frontier of the LGBT agenda. Things have changed significantly in my lifetime. Being gay or a crossdresser was a crime when I was young, then it became a mental illness, and now, finally, I meet openly gay people at work who expect to be accepted. It is a wonderful change. The social model for a bi person really hasn't emerged yet, so far as I know.

My purpose in starting this thread was to say I had taken a step forward and bought breastforms. I was quite excited about getting the breast forms and really hoped to hear advice on adhesives and makeup and all sorts of fun stuff. I wanted to have a little fun, share something. I was happy to get a critique of my blue wig. I think it is a shame that it has turned into a moralistic rant instead.

I know that the " Rush Limba " comment by Sally24 must have been very witty, but I am afraid I do not understand it. But please, I am not asking for anyone to explain it to me.

[paulaN]

Your welcome. I have only used the tape with mine. It's great. A real pain to get off of your forms though. I waited until I had multipal layers. still took a great deal of time and I had to be real careful. I worked it little by little until I pealed it all off. taking all of the layers at once seemed to help.

[unclejoann]

Do you mean ordinary double sided tape, or is there a special double sided tape for breast forms? I know there is also double sided tape for carpets ... boy, that would be hard to peel off.

[Stephenie S]

Well I have no problem with an open marriage. I jokingly tried to state that already.

The problem comes in when only one side of the marriage is "open". If both partners are on board, I should think that an open marriage could be a liberating thing. Most of the open marriages I have had any experience with, though, turned out to "open" only to one partner's advantage.

In practice, open marriages seem problematic. Ususally one or the other of the partners turns out to have a bit more jealousy than the other, or a different set of expectations.

Is everyone here who professes moral outrage at broken marriage vows a hypocrit? Or are Batty's statistics somehow off?

Stephenie

[battybattybats]

Is everyone here who professes moral outrage at broken marriage vows a hypocrit? Or are Batty's statistics somehow off?


In fairness to those here the stats (which I got from a sexologist on tv so they might be off.. it could even be an understimate) would suggest that it'd be a third to half and while generally many of the people who have expressed 'moral outrage' that I have known have turned out to be guilty of the same or worse themselves, or to be repressed versions of what they decry however that may not be the case here. It's entirely possible that those who express such outrage may be those who are not acting in that manner themselves while those who do likely just are not commenting.

As for the blue wig.. I wonder could it be made to work with the right make-up and outfit?

[MsJanessa]

I've been around long enough to know that people's lives are usually too complex for me to make judgement calls on their "moral behavior" so I don't even try. This site is composed of predominantly heterosexual cds, some happily married, some unhappily married and some not married at all. It shouldn't suprise you that your revelation that you have a wife and a boyfriend will cause these people to critisize you. However, the only judgement I will make here hon, is for you to ditch the blue wig--really doesn't do much for you.

[Stephenie S]

Well it is true that some who are first to protest something on moral grounds may be the most guilty.

Remember that American Evangelical Church leader who was on President Bush's council agaist gay marriage? And he turned out to be a homosexual, cocaine using, male prostitute using, marriage vow breaking, sinning liar.

Stephie

[unclejoann]

For the moral question ... I don't want to "cheat", I'd rather not have a boyfriend but I am glad I have his friendship. Sex both in and out of marriage doesn't add up to more than about 20 minutes a week, so it just isn't the issue it was when I was younger. That, sadly, is for sure.

The blue wig is packed away (I will have to get better at makeup before I dig it out again, I do basically like the color but I agree that it doesn't quite work yet). I am shopping for a large grayish one. You guys are great. I haven't bought a new bra yet, by the way, because I haven't seen any I like. I need a lacey underwire type, where should I go? Seems like the lacey ones are harder to find.

[Bobbie cd]

I have found some some fairly nice, (and comfortable) lacy underwire bras at WalMart, actually. Funnily enough, they are by Fruit-Of-The-Loom! :bs:

BTW, I did not mean to come off sounding moralistically superior before. I personally do not really care what other consenting adults do to pleasure each other, regardless of their gender identity and/or sexual preferences. I do believe fiercely in the concept of "informed consent". If you do not feel that you can be honest with your wife about this, I truly do not know that I can offer you any advice, but I fear that trouble is headed your way when the truth does come out as it usually seems to do sooner or later.

[unclejoann]

Thanks Bobby, you are right and I agree completely with you. I would much prefer to be honest with my wife about my boyfriend. Frankly, I am surprised by her reaction because I know that she would have a boyfriend if she wanted one and just expect me to accept it. But she has an "image" of me that is supposed to be more important than my reality. I believe I am to make up for men earlier in her life.

Anyway, I never shop at WalMart. I just don't like their business practices (kind of predatory capitalism), so I will keep looking. It has been fun to just go to different stores and look at bras and then head for the next one, it feels like I am a girl with an agenda.