Divorce ........ The SO V The CDR

[Sheila]

on several threads over my time on the forum The SO of a crossdresser has been portrayed as threatening to OUT the crossdresser, when the relationship breaks up ...........I am sure that there are two sides to every story on the breakup of the relationship, .......and if the SO is an non accepting SO then we are not going to find him/her on here, and able to defend themselves...... but if Crossdressing is part of the reason for the breakup of the relationship, or even if it is the whole and only reason for the breakup ......... why is it always the SO being portrayed as a the bad person, and as being an abuser ......... how many of you hands on heart have actaully told their SO before entering into that serious relationship that they are/were/or used to crossdress prior to the marriage/relationship ..... not many I bet ....... then when you are discovered crossdressing or do decide to tell after the marriage/serious relationship stage, you wonder why some are angry/non accepting.

If the partner in any marriage was beating their spouse (male or female cos it happens to men too) then it is okay to reveal to others why the marriage broke up, the same with cheating , it's okay to say "I left him/her beacuse he/she was cheating" or "I left because he/she spent way to much time doing this or that without heed for our relationship" ........ the minute that a spouse mentions crossdressing as a pertinent factor in the breakup, it is more often than not seen as Threatiening" outing the dresser. Now I am not for one minute saying it does not happen, cos Iam sure it does, heck we all say things in anger that we later regret and wished we could take back .....but they have more often that not kept silent since discovering the cding and now suddenly he/she is meant to keep quiet about the reason for the breakup of their relationship WHY????????

[Marla S]

I think this is not CD specific.

IMO it depends a lot on the personalities of the (ex)-partners.

We agree that it is not fair and a mistake to tell about CDing after the marriage.
The only excuse IMO is that the CD doesn't know himself how to deal with it and might believe it will go away.

If the SO is not able to accept it and the both are not able to rebuild trustfulness, of course Cding is a reason to divorce.

BUT: You can divorce in respect for the other, but you also can make it a 'mud-throwing contest'.

In the latter case everything will be used as weapon against the other. If CDing is involved, of course this issue will be used, because it is a powerful weapon.
The more when money or children are involved.

That is not GG, SO, CD specific, that is a certain attitude.

Adding to ones credit by debasing others.

I have no respect for that ... CD or SO doesn't matter.

Beating the spouse is in no way comparable to CDing IMO. A lousy analogy !!!

[Deidra Cowen]

I think this is not CD specific.

IMO it depends a lot on the personalities of the (ex)-partners.

You can divorce in respect, but it you also can make it a 'mud-throwing contest'.

In the latter case everything will be used as weapon against the other. If CDing is involved, of course this issue will be used, because it is a powerful weapon.
The more when money or children are involved.

That is not GG or SO specific, that is a certain mind set.
Adding to ones credit by debasing others. I have no respect for that ... CD or GG doens't matter.

Beating the spouse is in no way comparable to CDing IMO. A lousy analogy !!!

Lord girl, regardless if you are talking about physics or personal relationships you always have well thought out and useful answers. :thumbsup:

[EmmaB GG]

Marla - Jess wasn't making an analogy, just pointing out that 99% of the time, a reason is given for the break up of a relationship from both sides of the fence. If, truely, CDing is the main reason why should it be swept under the carpet, and lie told to those who ask? In all honesty, if a relationship breaks up and someone asks why, few people say "mind your own business!"

I have a friend whose wife, after 15 years together, decided she was gay and left him for another woman. For a while he kept this quiet even from us his oldest & closest friends, which created speculation - now we know, and it's the being honest part that has helped him move on.

Life isn't just about the individual & how he or she feels/wants - its about how we treat and interact with others as well & with honesty. Honesty hurts, yes, but in the long term it's generally better. Otherewise, its a very lonely life ....

[Sarah Rabbit]

Honey,
I read this three times, (the second time, I actually put on the specs, just to make sure) What are you getting at?. I do not understand what you are asking:(

Sarah R. :bunny:

[kathy333]

what i think you are saying is if we are the asshhoe in the relationship and it falls apart,dont use the cding as the excuse for the breakup. i can go along with that.:2c:

[Marla S]

Marla - Jess wasn't making an analogy, just pointing out that 99% of the time, a reason is given for the break up of a relationship from both sides of the fence. If, truely, CDing is the main reason why should it be swept under the carpet, and lie told to those who ask? In all honesty, if a relationship breaks up and someone asks why, few people say "mind your own business!"
@ analogy: Some things just shouldn't be mentioned in the same paragraph.

It is not about lying, it is about respect.
Who would know better than the SO that CDing is a delicate subject, if this is the reason for the break up.
Of course people will ask, and of course one has the need to talk.
But without lying you always can say "We drifted apart", "We developed in different directions", "there is no future with this relationship" etc. These are the usual reasons anyway.

Personally I agreed with my ex to handle it this way. It works, though the both of us were hurt and the both of us would have stories to tell. But more than a general phrase is indeed nobody's business. Sometimes it is hard to maintain, but there is the respect I still have for my ex.
Concerning CDing she asked if she can talk about it. First I said better don't. She abided to it. Meantime I agreed that she can talk about it. I don't know if she did.

We havn't been married though we were partners for 17 years and it might be a bigger problem if you have to appear before a court.


I have a friend whose wife, after 15 years together, decided she was gay and left him for another woman. For a while he kept this quiet even from us his oldest & closest friends, which created speculation - now we know, and it's the being honest part that has helped him move on.
Now the difference here is. She realized she is gay, she left.
I don't know what agreement both had. If she decided not to live her new relationship in an open way, I think he did right not to talk about it. If she lived open then there was no need to keep it quiet.
But maybe he didn't talk about it because he was hurt as man (not able to keep that woman) ... dunno ... anyway ... Why people always have to speculate ? It's none of their business.

Of course that is an ideal, that is hard to maintain, and it doesn't always work.


Life isn't just about the individual & how he or she feels/wants - its about how we treat and interact with others as well & with honesty. Honesty hurts, yes, but in the long term it's generally better. Otherewise, its a very lonely life ....
Yes, how we treat each other is the point. But as long as CDing is seen as a "questionable ... bad... pervert " issue (without being IMO), making it public without permission means treating someone bad, the more because the CD usualy doesn't get the chance to take a stand. That has nothing to do with honesty.

[Daintre]

The SO Vs the CDR

I will say that I am disappointed by this post, divorce is a traumatic event in

lives of many people. I have to wonder why you feel there has to be a need

to explain to family and friends why a marriage has ended...not enough to

just say that it was "irreconcilable differences" ?

When divorce happens, more times than not, it is a messy affair, not to many

unions are just simply terminated. In a divorce, each side will use emotions

to fortify their position. Cross dressing is frowned upon in our society, oh not

by everyone, but by enough to keep what we do hidden.

I can only speak from my own experience, I was ashamed that I had the

need to cross dress, or was it a need to transition. When I married, I did not

tell my new wife because I thought....AND wrongly so, that this need would

go away...well it didn't, and it became the tipping point in the failure of my

marriage.

So, we have a child who we both love to bits...custody...well....TRUMP

CARD...use the cross dressing as a weapon to intimidate the CDR into

compliance with what the SO wants...WHY? Most CDRs are not out to their

families, friends or the outside world, and in many cases, there will be

repercussions if this information is made public. I had to give up an awful lot

at the time of divorce to keep this quiet.

After the divorce, my ex thought that she needed to be the victim in the

divorce and told both families, our friends, the organizations I belonged to,

and my employer. It was not enough to just say ...we parted ways.

Bitter...yes a bit...Why?....After we were married, my new bride said to

me...and this was before she knew about the cross dressing...."Oh ****. I

don't love you, you know, but I am wanting a child". I only bring this up to

show that in many cases BOTH sides enter the marriage with baggage.

I am sorry, but I refuse to equate crossdressing to physical abuse. In my

case it was/is a need that I have, and it was NEVER a club used against my

ex in any way.

I will ask again, why can't the divorce be summed up as a personal matter

between the two involved and it is not for public consumption.

I am sorry for the length of this post

Jenni

[TxKimberly]

Hmmm . . . interesting points, let's see if I can take a shot at responding without making an A$$ outta myself.
The first thing that strikes me is that for the purpose of making your point, you have compared us to people that beat their wives and to people that cheat on their wives. I hope these were just to illistrate your point and you don't truely feel we belong in those catogories. Like a number of other people here, I have been married 20 years, have never cheated on my wife, and would happily die trying to kill anyone that tried to hurt her.
For someone who abuses the one he swore to love, honor, and protect, I would not feel pitty were that brought out as part a separation. In my opinion, a person that does this deserves no quarter, no pity, and no respect. On the other hand, I think most will agree that being TG is not something we chose or something we decided to do or be. If a woman were to decide she could not tolerate being married to one of us (and I can understand how this may be true), wouldn't our situation differ from the wife beaters and cheaters in that perhaps we do deserve some small amount of courtesy, decency, or respect?
Next point that comes to mind, is that unlike the wife beaters and cheaters, we doing nothing morally wrong. Nothing anyone can say will ever convince me that CDing is "wrong" or something that offends God.
Last point that comes to my mind would be the question of consequences. Believe it or not, in today's world a man who is divorced for beating his wife or cheating on her is probably NOT going to be shunned by his friends nor fired from work. It's screwed up, bass akwards, but true. Now when a man is divorced and part of the reason is given that he is a crossdresser, if this becomes known, he will probably loose most of his friends, some of his family, and it has the very real potential to end his career. All because of something he did not choose to be.
I'm afraid my post is disjointed and poorly written but I hope you can see the points I was trying to make.

[Amanda Shaft]

I look at like this: by telling my So, partner, wife about my cding, a subject I have kept hidden from the rest of the world, I’m imparting a trust in her to respect and understand my need to cd and my need to keep it a secret. If we should later split up for what ever reason does this mean all bets are off and all confidences are now free to be touted around? I’ve been through two divorces: the first was because of cding to some degree the second wasn’t, neither of my ex-wives has found it necessary to tell anyone else my secret and they have my eternal respect for that. And that’s what it’s about in the end: the fact that despite differences in the way we live, our views and our beliefs, we can still retain respect for one another. A respect that goes beyond pitiful mudslinging, blame and bigotry: that way leads to war and casualties!
Amanda

[Corrine GG]

While we were dating, my SO would have these 'freak-outs'. He would break up with me for no reason, "you don't want me, believe me." Now I know that these times were due to his secret, so if we HAD broken up, it would have ben about the CDing, I just wouldn't have known it.

I think he still struggles with it...I hope less now than before. He has gotten mad at me and asked for a divorce (whiile fighting) twice since we got married in Oct. Over VERY STUPID STUFF. I think he was frustrated over not being able to dress (kids and me in the house all the time) and lashed out at me because of it. I really hope that being ok with this eliminates his frustration. But hey, if he wants to divorce me still, I won't let the door hit me in the butt. And YES, our relationship is great most of the time so I would have to say that CDing would have caused it's demise....just not on my part.

[Holly]

...why the gory details are anyone else's business? If the reason of the breakup was illiteracy, would you be compelled to disclose that? And just to throw another bit of a twist into the discussion, I would be willing to bet that in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, the way that it is related will make the other person out to look like the bad guy... He is a CROSS DRESSER... he wears PANTIES... he puts on MAKEUP. He, he, he. The more truthful statement would be, "My former husband enjoyed doing things that I had no interest in." Anything more is simply gossip. All to often, we attempt to justify our own lives at the expense of others. :(

[battybattybats]

It seems to me....
Something told in confidance remains in confidance if you are a person worthy of ever being told a confidance.

Now if a husband (or wife) comitted a crime or abused someones rights (such as by comitting assault) there should be criminal procedings and the facts are automatically made publicly known. If not then the persons privacy should be respected.

Seems simple enough...
But, if the person had comitted assault (or similar) but the Wife (or husband) did not feel able to go to the authorities or could not provide sufficient evidence for a prosecution then it would seem ok for them to warn the community at large.. except that a person has the right to face their accuser and so spreading rumours that can't be verified is a dangerous thing to endorse!

Now sure an unaccepting SO may feel hurt or personally slighted by their partners dressing but that hardly equates. The trouble is I don't think enough people understand enough of the notions of ethics, fairness, human rights or the difference between subjective and objective truth to be capable of making sound right-and-wrong judgements. That scares me.

Another point. The SO wants to explain to their family and friends why the relationship ended. The CD wants their privacy and confidances protected. At what point, if at all, does the SO's desire become important enough to violate the rights of their former partner? If the SO needs to move on and feels they need to talk about it to do so.. they should talk to a psychologist or similar, someone who is legally bound to keep confidances.

Breaking a confidance, such as by telling others 'we broke up because his wearing dresses disgusted me' is violating the human right to privacy. That makes it clearly abuse.

Another example. If a marriage broke up because of impotence or infertility would it be ok to make that public? I don't think so.

[susie evans]

a lot of good points brought up her but i think every situation is diffrent and needs to be looked at carefully :2c:

susie

[Kelsy]

If CDing is the only reason for the divorce then what kind of relationship is it to begin with. The reason then becomes "I can't accept him for who he is!"
No crime has been comitted The only real reason for divulging private intimate details is to cause pain and get even:(

Jennifer

[KandisTX]

The odd thing here is that all three of my previous marriages ended as a result of my CDing being a key factor.

Wife #1 - Listed it as "Does things unbecoming of a husband and father".

Wife #2 - Left when she realised she made an error in making me stop CDing

Wife #3 - Left me for some guy on internet under the pretext of saying "Kandis gets more attention than I do when we go out dressed up".

Fortunately for me GlitterGG has known since we met and we have been happily marrired for the last 5 years now. She understands that it is part of me.

Now, wife #1 used it to aid herself in gaining custody of our son.

Wife #2, never filed for divorce so I had to do that myself when I met the woman who would become wife #3. I also filed for divorce from wife #3 when GlitterGG and I got together again after being apart for 6.5 years.

so 2, and 3 never really got to use it against me in a divorce, but I am quite sure they would have as it was a main reason for their departure from the relationship.

Kandis:love:

[Sheri 4242]

H'mmm -- most interesting thread! And a VERY complex one!!! And, one that deserves more than a cursorary comment!!! I presume we've all heard of the movie The First Wives Club? Well, I belong to that certain group that could be best called The First Spouses Club. The significance of this point is that sometimes you have to had "been there" to speak with any true understanding. So, regarding divorce, I've "been there" and it is a subject that runs much, much deeper than one can imagine!!! So, not only have I personaly experienced it, with my third career in progress, I am often an adovcate for the oppressed/abused.

Divorce -- as common as it is (c. 50% of all first marriages end in divorce -- at least that's the statistics in the States) -- is something that is incredibly devastating!!! Yet, having been through one -- and it wasn't a pretty thing at all -- today I can tell you that it was one of THE VERY BEST things that has ever happened to me!!! What I thought was unimaginable and unbearable at the time, ended up ultimately leading me to my one true love -- my soul mate and split apart!!! That is why when I see people on here who are fearing divorce like it is the absolute worst thing that could happen, I know that isn't always the case -- life moves on and the world still turns, and with appropriate assistance, what you think is the worst thing that could ever hapen to you really might not be!!!


(D)ivorce is a traumatic event in (the) lives of many people. I have to wonder why . . . there has to be a need to explain to family and friends why a marriage has ended...not enough to just say that it was "irreconcilable differences" ?

Jenni: You are so right!!! First, divorce IS, more often than not, an incredibly traumatic event!!! Psychologists rate it up there with the death of a spouse, and the death of a parent or child, in stressfulness. That's putting divorce in a very grave and serios category!!! One of the most difficult things about divorce is that you don't die from it -- far too often you are left completely numb, wishing you were dead!!! To some, what I just said may sound comedic, but it isn't -- and anyone who's been there knows what I mean!!!

SECOND, as far as this thread goes, I think this is THE most significant part of your post!!!!!!! Most divorces are VERY messy, ugly, and mean-spirited!!!

In the overwhelming number of cases there is, at the very least, an over-powerng need by one to explain why they are taking such drastic actions!!!

Add to the mix that in so very, very many cases there is an almost uncontrolable need/desire to be right and/or to justify one's actions, and/or to hurt the other party, and within all of this you have the answer to "why" it seems that it isn't enough to simply say the reason is "irreconcilable differences."

Even in jurisdictions where no formally stated reason is necessary, you will, more often than not, find both parties giving reasons -- especially to family and friends!!! Everybody, it seems, wants to be viewed as justified and/or right. Even when that isn't the case, almost all of the time, family and close friends, and even co-workers, are incredibly pushy when it comes to wanting a reason!!! "Irreconcilable differences" is a catch-all and way too nice in a society that absolutely thrives on wanting to know all the sorid reasons and details!!! (And, many times I've seen where someone ends up having to talk to their employer, and even fellow employees, about everything that is going on just to explain why they have been acting strange, wihdrawn, disconnected, etc., and how that has affected their job.)


Of course people will ask, and of course one has the need to talk. But without lying you always can say "We drifted apart", "We developed in different directions", "there is no future with this relationship" etc.

Marla: but that there were more people like you and your ex!!! More often than not there is a deterioration of respect of one's spouse -- often mixed with the other spouse being in a pathetic begging mode (you cannot believe the number of GM I have seen that are reduced to sobbing blobs who will do anything to "fix" things!!! Not being sexist, just telling what I've seen numerous times!

And, no, you are right: it isn't anybody else's business in one sense -- except the court's (and at least on this side of the pond, it is public record -- you can go and get the filings of people you don't even know)!!!

Marla: "if" your ex handled things the way you agreed, then trust me on this, the two of you are the exception and not the rule!!! Even without CDing being in the mix, children, bank accounts, and property become bargaining chips. I've seen too many situations where one party could care less if they left the other devastated!!! Add in something like CDing, and well it's off to the races . . . b/c way too many would use such information (even in just negotiations re sttlement agreements, which are negotiated out of court) to gain the upper hand!!!

One last thing regarding your post: you can't magine the number of people who participated in -- and maybe even enjoyed whatever (CDing, BDSM, etc.) -- who will turn around and say about their spouse, "look at this pervert and what he (or she) did -- what perverse things they are into!!!!!!!" Why? To get the children, or the house, or the better vehicle, or a larger alimony, or, most commonly, all of the above.

And, in my experience, even when two agree that certain topics won't be discussed with anybody else, frequently there is a brother or sister, a best friend, etc., who you'll talk to in the strictest of confidence -- and who will then "spread the news" ("Pssst! Now listen, you can't tell anybody I said anything, but guess what is at the heart of my cousin's divorce . . . ") For some reason it seems that it is human nature to be able to prove that you know what is going on!!!


(O)n several threads over my time on the forum The SO of a crossdresser has been portrayed as threatening to OUT the crossdresser, when the relationship breaks up ...........I am sure that there are two sides to every story on the breakup of the relationship, .......and if the SO is an non accepting SO then we are not going to find him/her on here, and able to defend themselves...... but if Crossdressing is part of the reason for the breakup of the relationship, or even if it is the whole and only reason for the breakup ......... why is it always the SO being portrayed as a the bad person, and as being an abuser ......... how many of you hands on heart have actaully told their SO before entering into that serious relationship that they are/were/or used to crossdress prior to the marriage/relationship ..... not many I bet ....... then when you are discovered crossdressing or do decide to tell after the marriage/serious relationship stage, you wonder why some are angry/non accepting.

Jess: I think we usually agree on most things. So, I hope you'll give this a deep think: Had my first wife known I was a CDer, she would have used it against me -- in the divorce, and all around town just to be mean b/c that is her nature. Trust me: she would have used it BIG TIME to her advantage in the divorce, and in custody issues, and to just have fun telling people!!!

NOW, "no" I did not tell her before marriage. She had been around me a great deal in high school and college where, for this club or that sorority, I always participated in "Mr. Beautiful" contests where the men dressed as women -- did evening gowns. sports wear, and talent. I thought that she thought it was cute, funny, etc. MY MISTAKE!!! Not long after we married, through "testing the waters" type conversations, I learned that she would NEVER be tolerating or accepting. MY BAD!!! I know, I know: I should have gone through this BEFORE marriage!!! But, it was what it was -- and I am the type of person who takes their vows seriously -- and who thought marriage was a forever type thing!!!!!!! Therefore, I kept CDing to myself - only CDed a few times in many, many years (and always when I was way out of town), and always completely purged before coming home.

Other than CDing, our marriage boiled down to total incompatibility -- your classic case of irreconcilable differences!!! I don't talk about this aspect too much, but in our case SHE was the abuser -- towards me and our children!!! (And, I don't mean just emotional and mental abuse -- I'm talking physical abuse, too).

Yes, you are right: there are two sides to every story!!! And, granted, you are just getting my side. BUT, I promise you that it is as honest and objective as possible -- and if you want, my wife (my second wife that is) will log in and verify what she, personally, knows to be true about the story I am relating.

My first wife was NOT nurturing -- I was. So, when the children got sick, or had to go to the hospital for something, etc., it was ME who took care of them or who stayed with them. It was me who did 95%-plus of the cooking in our house -- same for the laundry. I also did the outside chores, too, like cutting the grass. My first wife was, in her own mother's words, "lazy and far too interested in trashy novels and drinking beer." My ex mother-in-law should know b/c the only difference was that my ex mother-in-law prefered wine.

((( I liked to drink some in college, but quit -- save the occasional LIT, maybe once every other year -- just b/c somebody needed to be sober around and for the children!!! )))

At any rate, without CDing being any part of the equation, when we divorced (and I was that blubering fool for a while, dumb me, b/c she was having multiple adulterous relationships), I was awarded custody, the house and its furnishings (except one table that had belonged to her family for generations), as well as the better auto. A "right" outcome? Given the circumstances as they were (and, as I understand they still are b/c our children, now young adults, haven't had contact with her in over a year -- their choice b/c they live close to her in this small city) I'd have to say "absolutely yes." And not b/c I won, but b/c it was right!!! Had knowledge of my CDing been available to my ex, the outcomes would have been so very different, but only insofar as she wanted things to be. Trust me, she would have loved nohing better than to "out me." So, you cannot always look at things as strictly back and white -- newspapers do have other ink colors!!!

Well, my responses here are not meant to cause any aguments. I saw the thread and knew I had to add my :2c:

Nobody could have wanted to stay out of divorce court more than me, re my first wife, b/c I truly believe in the vows and that it is supposed to be a lifetime thing!!! That said, I NOW FEEL I AM THE MOST BLESSED GM ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH!!!!!!! B/c of the divorce, I found my tue soulmate and split apart!!! We both experienced (suffered???) similar problems in our respective first marriages!!! My wife "had me at hello" and "completes me" -- and, as most on here know, YES, I told her that I was a CDer as soon as I saw that we were beginning to develop a relationship that seemed destined to go to the alter!!! She knew practically nothing about mtf heterosexual CDing, but has been most accepting as we have built our union!!!

I hope what I said here helps -- I want to make a positive contribution, and this topic is one that hits directly!!! I tried to be as forthcoming and heartfelt with my answers as possible!!!

[Marla S]

Marla: but that there were more people like you and your ex!!! More often than not there is a deterioration of respect of one's spouse -- often mixed with the other spouse being in a pathetic begging mode (you cannot believe the number of GM I have seen that are reduced to sobbing blobs who will do anything to "fix" things!!! Not being sexist, just telling what I've seen numerous times!

And, no, you are right: it isn't anybody else's business in one sense -- except the court's (and at least on this side of the pond, it is public record -- you can go and get the filings of people you don't even know)!!!

Marla: "if" your ex handled things the way you agreed, then trust me on this, the two of you are the exception and not the rule!!! Even without CDing being in the mix, children, bank accounts, and property become bargaining chips. I've seen too many situations where one party could care less if they left the other devastated!!! Add in something like CDing, and well it's off to the races . . . b/c way too many would use such information (even in just negotiations re sttlement agreements, which are negotiated out of court) to gain the upper hand!!!

One last thing regarding your post: you can't magine the number of people who participated in -- and maybe even enjoyed whatever (CDing, BDSM, etc.) -- who will turn around and say about their spouse, "look at this pervert and what he (or she) did -- what perverse things they are into!!!!!!!" Why? To get the children, or the house, or the better vehicle, or a larger alimony, or, most commonly, all of the above.

And, in my experience, even when two agree that certain topics won't be discussed with anybody else, frequently there is a brother or sister, a best friend, etc., who you'll talk to in the strictest of confidence -- and who will then "spread the news" ("Pssst! Now listen, you can't tell anybody I said anything, but guess what is at the heart of my cousin's divorce . . . ") For some reason it seems that it is human nature to be able to prove that you know what is going on!!!


Yes, I think I can consider myself lucky with my ex and that we were able to make this kind of agreement (Have no evidence that she broke it. The one time she did, because one of her friends insisted on it, she told me (not CD related)). We havn't been married, which made it more easy, we had no children, which made it more easy, the both of us earned own money, which made it more easy.

I am not free of guilt. Though it is quite anonymous here I have written a few things about our relationship here and in PMs, that I regret to have written, because it is not fair.

And I think to know that it is all too easy and all too human to get into that swirl, and that it is very frequent.

But that must not be a justification, and it must not be accepted ... neither by friends, the public, nor the courts.

I am dreaming, I know.

[Country girl]

Jess, I understand completely what you are getting at and to be completely honest I think some of the answers on here are total and utter crap. Others are very thought provoking and really make you think about how people try to justify behavior. Now having said that let me say this, If a CDer has been married to a woman who has known but hasn't been totally accepting, yet stayed in the marriage and now after so many years, [let's say 10 for example] wants a divorce, then I think it is totally wrong for her to use that against her husband and threaten to tell everyone that he is a CDer. She didn't tell for 10 years so why would she tell now? To me that is total and utter crap. Understand where I am coming from my friend? :love: Ya. CG GG

As far as Sarah Rabbit's response goes, three words, GET NEW GLASSES!!!

[Country girl]

I needed to come back and revisit this thread. For a various number of reasons. I want to say a couple of different things. It appalls me that some of the responses on here just come across as so blase. Before anyone decides to jump down my throat let me just say something. I was married first to a man who liked to hit women. For almost 6 years he beat me. He put me in the hospital so many times I lost track. My 22 year old daughter is handicapped because he beat me so bad when I was pregnant with her that he hurt her while she was still in my womb. He almost killed me 5 different times. I was young and stupid. I never pressed charges and other than the court system, [I had 2 children with him and his rights were terminated], no one knew why we got divorced. I never bad mouthed him, I never told my friends he beat me, in fact I was embarrased and didn't want people to know. I was married to another man who never treated me bad when we were married but once we seperated he harrased me, threatened me, married another woman while we were still married, tried to run me over with a car, stole my identity and ran up all kinds of bills in my name, etc. I never told anyone these things either. I didn't bad mouth him to his friends, or mine. We live in a small town and some of the things he did became public knowledge, but not because I was out running around telling everyone. I happen to be a very private person. I don't care to air my dirty laundry. Now, I've shared these things with y'all to make a point. Not every woman runs around "telling all the dirty little secrets" from the relationship. Some of us have more pride in ourselves than that. But, sometimes there are things that people have a right to talk about. And if you are ashamed of who you are and what you do, then maybe you should rethink that part of your life. One other thing. Y'all don't know me other than from this forum. If you did, or if you knew my ex husbands, I probably wouldn't have shared these things with you. Why? Because it serves no purpose for you to think ill will of either one of them. We all make mistakes in our lives that we are not proud of and who are we to judge others? I believe that right is God's and His alone. :hugs: CG GG

[Marla S]

Country Girl GG, it makes me sad to read your story and it makes me cry. There is no justification for how you and your children have been treated.

But just tell me one thing.

Where do you see the parallels of CDing and beating a women repeatedly, almost killing her, causing a handicap for a child, harassment ???

I think you should have good reasons. Otherwise bring up your story in this context this is not more than a lousy difamation of TG people.:Angry3:

And you wonder that TG folks tries to hide and deny that part of their life most of their life ?:Angry3:

[Country girl]

Marla, To answer your question, there are no parallels, I was making a point. Just because someone does something wrong OR something that you don't agree with doesn't make it ok for you to go out and tell the world about it. Read my previous post, I DON'T think it is ok for a woman to use CDing against her SO/spouse/BF at anytime during or after the relationship has ended. It is just plain wrong. I personally think it is a copout. People need to respect each other. You want a divorce then get one, that's why they have the term "irreconcilable differences", so people can use it and still keep their dignity intact. Understand what I was trying to accomplish? Sorry for making you mad. :hugs:CG GG

[Marla S]

I have read your previous post and agree with it, but I also have read your second post.

Call it paranoia, misinterpretation, out of context, or whatever. After your story there is the phrase

And if you are ashamed of who you are and what you do, then maybe you should rethink that part of your life.
Probably I got hold of the wrong end of the stick, but part of being ashamed is fact that TG issues are by far too often set into the same context like violence, child molesting, perversion and the like.

I don't accept this, because this is a major cause that TG folks doesn't dare to speak about it, tries to hide it from their SOs, fears to be outed, and that outing is a powerful weapon against the CD.

[Country girl]

Marla, Let me clarify. I in no way was throwing CDing into the same catagory as abuse, child molesters, adulters, etc. Again, I was simply trying to mmake a point. Perhaps it is I who should have worded my response differently. As most of the CDers on this sight are well aware of I am a completely accepting GG. I find nothing wrong with CDing. In fact I enjoy participating in buying clothes, makeup, dressing, etc. I find it sad that we live in a society that can accept alternative lifestyles yet can't accept a man wanting to wear a dress. I don't understand that kind of logic at all. It is dumbfonding and illogical. Please accept my sincerest apologies for upsetting you. :hugs: CG GG

[Marla S]

Please accept my sincerest apologies for upsetting you. :hugs: CG GG
Of course I do.
Though I got het up about this point I am well aware of your accepting and supporting attitude ... thanks a lot for that.
Actually your story doesn't deserve my heated reply (indeed it makes me very angry and almost forget my good manners, I just could ****** these guys:mad::Angry3:), but I hurts that CDing is mentioned in the same context.
Actually I am more than happy to be a CD, when I don't have to be like these guys.
:hugs:I hope you accept my apologies as well :hugs:

[Country girl]

Marla, you and I agree on a lot of issues. Like I said, it was probably just my poor choice of wording. No need to apologize. I well know how difficult it is to be a CDer in today's dysfunctional society. I see the hypocrisy all around me. :hugs: CG GG

[Marla S]

:redface:
:hugs:

[Glenda]

My wife divorced me after 23 years of marriage. I was never unfaithful to her during all of those years, did not physically or emotionally abuse her, always tried to do more than my share of the work to ensure a happy home. But she wasn't happy. Left me and the kids for a guy she worked with for three years. CDing was not a reason for the divorce. I didn't even think about dressing until I was divorced for three years and let a girlfriend talk me into dressing for Halloween. My ex did blame me for the divorce. It wasn't until two years after the divorce that she called and apologized. She said that she was unhappy with herself in our marriage and she didn't realize until much later that I had not done any of the things which she had attributed to me as causing her to divorce me. She also thanked me for never telling our friends that she had been unfaithful and for never blaming her for the divorce.

I have not been able to trust anyone enough to commit to a lifelong marriage again. I have dated quite a few women in the 15 years following my divorce and have discovered some disturbing things. One is that some women (and please don't think that I feel most women fall into this category) cannot accept any responsibility for a failed relationship. They always feel that the other person is responsible, hurt them just for the enjoyment of it and they will do anything and everything to make that person hurt as much as she does. If this is the reason you want to out your SO to the world then nothing I say is going to prevent that from happening. That does not make it right.

When you betray trust in a relationship to hurt someone because you perceive that you were hurt, then you are doing nothing more than ensuring that relationship and all that follow will be bitter and empty. To me, it is far better to say you drifted apart, didn't feel fulfilled in the relationship or something along those lines. Trying to hurt or shame someone else will not make you feel better. If you think it will, you are wrong.

But........if you have been physically or emotionally abused, if your SO was mean and spiteful, if he intimidated, lied, cheated, etc., then so be it. Out the ******* and do your best to make his life miserable. You have my blessing.

[Sheila]

to all of you who have taken the time to reply to this thread.

and to those who are assuming that My CDR and I are parting ways let me make it clear that nothing could be further from the truth ........ in actual fact we plan to marry early next year

Please note ............ nowhere did I say that CDing was a big stick with which to threaten your partner .......... nor would I ever sanction that and I mean ever.

Firstly to those who tought I was equating CDING with "beating" of a partner, or cheating on a partner .... let me make or attempt to make myself clear(and I did say Male or Female) ........ CDing was not in this mix



If the partner in any marriage was beating their spouse (male or female cos it happens to men too) then it is okay to reveal to others why the marriage broke up, the same with cheating , it's okay to say "I left him/her beacuse he/she was cheating" or "I left because he/she spent way to much time doing this or that without heed for our relationship" ........ the minute that a spouse mentions crossdressing as a pertinent factor in the breakup, it is more often than not seen as Threatening" outing the dresser.

Glenda makes the point I was trying to make, and perhaps better than I did .... it's okay to reveal certain things just not some others again WHY ??????

if you have been physically or emotionally abused, if your SO was mean and spiteful, if he intimidated, lied, cheated, etc., then so be it. Out the ******* and do your best to make his life miserable. You have my blessing.

Sheri 4242.. no there is no need for your wife to log in and verify anything, I trust you hun and thankyou for your valauble contribution to this thread:hugs:


It seems to me....
Something told in confidance remains in confidance if you are a person worthy of ever being told a confidance.

Frequently as we well know CDing is not something that is "told" in confidence but accidently discoverd by the SO
Now sure an unaccepting SO may feel hurt or personally slighted by their partners dressing but that hardly equates.
even accepting partners have times of emotional struggle coming to terms with their partners CDing .....

Another of your points, ....... The SO wants to explain to their family and friends why the relationship ended. The CD wants their privacy and confidances protected. At what point, if at all, does the SO's desire become important enough to violate the rights of their former partner? If the SO needs to move on and feels they need to talk about it to do so.. they should talk to a psychologist or similar, someone who is legally bound to keep confidances.

for one, there are usually two people in a relationship so it would seem reasonable to assume that both have the same rights . and in many cases where cding is a big issue it affects the SO as much as the CDR so where does the CDR get given theright with which to tell the SO what they can or cannot dicuss with whom they wish to their emotional, pshycological pain and secondly,many people cannot afford a psychologist or similar ...... and getting anywhere near one in the U.K is a nightmare unless you have £'s, thirdly in many many instances friends and family are the ones we turn to when we are having problems in any areas of our lives

Breaking a confidance, such as by telling others 'we broke up because his wearing dresses disgusted me' is violating the human right to privacy. That makes it clearly abuse.

It seems to me....
Something told in confidance remains in confidance if you are a person worthy of ever being told a confidance.

Now sure an unaccepting SO may feel hurt or personally slighted by their partners dressing

The SO wants to explain to their family and friends why the relationship ended. The CD wants their privacy and confidances protected. At what point, if at all, does the SO's desire become important enough to violate the rights of their former partner? If the SO needs to move on and feels they need to talk about it to do so.. they should talk to a psychologist or similar, someone who is legally bound to keep confidances.

Again sometimes there was no "confidence" to break but there are usually two people in a relationship, and I defend my right as a human being to tell whover I like about matters that are causing me emotional, physical or pshycolgical pain



The only real reason for divulging private intimate details is to cause pain and get even:(Jennifer
Breaking a confidance, such as by telling others 'we broke up because his wearing dresses disgusted me' is violating the human right to privacy. That makes it clearly abuse.

I think what I have failed to make clear was I do not advocate using a big stick in relation to the breakdown of a relationship but at what stage do SO's have the right to say why they are hurting and Why ????????

my reply to the posters in this thread has been delayed due to the fact that we have this weekend been helping a friend of ours who's marriage split up on Fri . they had only been married 7 months but he trusted us enough to come and talk to us knowing full well that we will not divulge what he tells us, Two weeks ago I helped save the life of another friend who had taken an overdose ......... she internalised her pain because she felt unable to talk, if she had perhaps she would never have got to that point


Marla - Jess wasn't making an analogy, just pointing out that 99% of the time, a reason is given for the break up of a relationship from both sides of the fence. If, truely, CDing is the main reason why should it be swept under the carpet, and lie told to those who ask? In all honesty, if a relationship breaks up and someone asks why, few people say "mind your own business!"

Emma
thankyou, yes as you say 99% of the time a reason is given for the break up of a relationship from both sides of the fence ....... my question was in fact was, why should CDing if that be the reason for it, be any different ....??????

Sarah Rabbit --- please see what Emma said and my reply sorry for being so dim as to not make it clear what i was asking

Marla S ......... I am happy that you both were able to work out your parting in a way that allowed you both to walk away with dignity ......... and like i said nowhere do i advocate the use of CDing as a weapon against a pertner in the breakup of a relationship ever......... but in all honesty it is as Emma said 99% of the time both parties talk to family and friends about the breakup and the why's of it .. we do that as part of the healing process in many cases and not just for revenge

Jenni Y . have PMD you
as yes I agree divorce is a traumatic evbent in peoples lives ....... I have gone through that process twice so i know the hurt and pain of it


Kimberly ......... sorry I did not use partner beating/cheating in relation to cding to illustrate my point . please see the start of my post nor did I say that it was gender specific ...... in actual fact i deliberately kept Gender specifics out of it and made it Gender neutral on purpose as like i said (beating, cheating spousal/relationship neglect happens to both genders)

Holly, like i have said previously this is not just about one partner in a relationship .. it affects both and yes I respect the cdr's rights (and just a point, She She She can also be said cding is across both genders not specific to the male gender)


Jess, I understand completely what you are getting at Others are very thought provoking and really make you think about how people try to justify behavior. Now having said that let me say this, If a CDer has been married to a woman who has known but hasn't been totally accepting, yet stayed in the marriage and now after so many years, [let's say 10 for example] wants a divorce, then I think it is totally wrong for her to use that against her husband and threaten to tell everyone that he is a CDer.

I think you got part of what i was trying to say but not all ......... I will not nor ever advocate using CDing as a weapon to cause a partner pain, threatening to disclose to cause pain is cruel and unnecessary, I was asking when the breakup occurs through in main CDing ,why does the non cding partner have no right to discuss Why the relationship has ended, why should they go down the we drifted apart route, again why more lies ???

It has taken me several attempts to reply to this thread due to our hectic weekend and before I post this I will say that i Will return to further add, just life reamins vhaotic here ... as per the norm

[battybattybats]

Glenda makes the point I was trying to make, and perhaps better than I did .... it's okay to reveal certain things just not some others again WHY ??????

Oh that's easy. It's ok to reveal anything that your partner wouldn't mind you revealing. If they were directly abusive then some may justify revealing that to protect other people from being similarly mistreated... though that is a potentially dangerous view. It's not ok to reveal anything that your ex does not want revealed without a vastly better reason to do so than revenge or even an explanation for the end of the relationship.
In simpler terms, revealing something that someone doesn't want revealed is abusing their human right to privacy. That's very bad.


Frequently as we well know CDing is not something that is "told" in confidence but accidently discoverd by the SO


Nevertheless without a clearly expressed lack of it being confidential it is safe to assume it is something someone wants to be kept private.


even accepting partners have times of emotional struggle coming to terms with their partners CDing .....

Of course they do and I empathise with that however it entitles them not one iota to abuse their partners human rights. Their suffering, as real and genuine as it is, does not equate in any way to any, perhaps justifyable excuses to violate someones privacy.. those things need to be deliberatly abusive like rape or physical violence not unavoidable consequences of fair and free expression such as that. If a husband is infertile that can cause the end of a relationship or a significant amount of emotional struggle on the part of both involved. It would be reprehensible for the wife to disclose that to her friends and family or the community at large for the exact same reasons.


for one, there are usually two people in a relationship so it would seem reasonable to assume that both have the same rights . and in many cases where cding is a big issue it affects the SO as much as the CDR so where does the CDR get given theright with which to tell the SO what they can or cannot dicuss with whom they wish to their emotional, pshycological pain and secondly,many people cannot afford a psychologist or similar ...... and getting anywhere near one in the U.K is a nightmare unless you have £'s, thirdly in many many instances friends and family are the ones we turn to when we are having problems in any areas of our lives


They have the same rights. One does not have the capacity to use the rights of the other though. Each have the right to privacy and if either discloses something the other wants kept in confidance its wrong. Everyone gets these rights from centuries of philosophy and the encoding of that philosophy in political process and law. People, by their thousands.. maybe millions, fought and died to gain and keep those rights. The french revolution, the enlightenment, the foundation concepts of the USA, the consequences of Magna Carta... most of the gains of civilisation of the last few hundred years have been centred around the rights of man (and woman).

If you want to make an argument of justification of wrongs by need.. the arguments of some branches of utilitarianism.. you better be ready to be happy when poor people rob you or when an unsatisfied spouse cheats on you. If not then the ethical way to meet your need would be to vote in accordance to get psychological counselling as part of a universal healthcare system.


Again sometimes there was no "confidence" to break but there are usually two people in a relationship, and I defend my right as a human being to tell whover I like about matters that are causing me emotional, physical or pshycolgical pain

Just because someone is or used to be in a relationship with another person not one single of that persons human rights becomes yours to own. They still have their right to privacy. If your attempt to use your rights violates someone else rights then it is wrong. Also, often it is illegal. Disclosing or making puiblic accusations of another persons medical or private lives is often a crime. Your pain does not give you the right to violate the rights of others.


I think what I have failed to make clear was I do not advocate using a big stick in relation to the breakdown of a relationship but at what stage do SO's have the right to say why they are hurting and Why ????????


I get what you are saying but still the SO only has the right to talk about it as long as it does not violate the right to privacy of their partner. Hurt that is an emotional response (no matter how valid) to a blameless circumstance is not remotely sufficient to violate human rights. Talking to people who can be absolutely 100%trusted to keep privacy and not allow that information to affect their behaviour with the other person in any way is ok.. usually that requires substantial training and so is left to Drs Psychs and Priests. Being anonymous on the net also might work so long as the anonimity is absolutely assured.


my reply to the posters in this thread has been delayed due to the fact that we have this weekend been helping a friend of ours who's marriage split up on Fri . they had only been married 7 months but he trusted us enough to come and talk to us knowing full well that we will not divulge what he tells us, Two weeks ago I helped save the life of another friend who had taken an overdose ......... she internalised her pain because she felt unable to talk, if she had perhaps she would never have got to that point

That is why it is essential that everyone has easy access to quality counselling. Some people don't have friends they can rely on or who will give sufficient advice. There are many charitable organisations in some parts of the world that run free phone counselling and helplines and many political parties that argue in favour of taxpayer funded universal healthcare to ensure that decent healthcare is a right of the masses and not a privilidge of the wealthy. The right answer to these situations is not to make up for the lack of these services by abusing someones human rights but instead to be active in the gaining of these services for yourself and for all.


...99% of the time a reason is given for the break up of a relationship from both sides of the fence ....... my question was in fact was, why should CDing if that be the reason for it, be any different ....??????

If a woman is infertile and the relationship ends because the husband wants kids is it ok for him to tell the world even if his ex-wife hasn't come to terms with the fact that she is barren and feels less of a woman because of it? Should she be forced to endure all the questions and the changes in peoples behaviour towards her at a time when she is not emotionally prepared for that? No! Absolutely not.

So many things would fall into that situation. Perhaps you may see it better if I phrase it like this: If the other person could be harmed, could feel harmed, would have others behave differently towards them on account of the release of information about them that they are not ready or willing to have others know, or feel that they might then it is wrong... which is why privacy is important and why the right exists.


...but in all honesty it is as Emma said 99% of the time both parties talk to family and friends about the breakup and the why's of it .. we do that as part of the healing process in many cases and not just for revenge

But you can't harm someone else to heal yourself, and releasing information about someone else that they do not want released is to abuse their human rights. That is some of the worst harm that can be done to someone and expediting your own healing process isn't sufficient for that.


...I was asking when the breakup occurs through in main CDing ,why does the non cding partner have no right to discuss Why the relationship has ended, why should they go down the we drifted apart route, again why more lies ???

There are ways to be honest yet respectful. If 'drifting apart' doesn't fit, 'Irreconcilable differences' isn't a lie. Sure you can't get into the emotional nitty gritty but sometimes respecting other people is tough.
Now when the CD comes out, if ever, then it's fine to talk about the CDing. But you still wouldn't get to go into a single detail that the CDing spouse has not voluntarily revealed themselves.

[MsJanessa]

I told my ex wife about my dressing soon after we started getting serious and at least three years prior to our getting married---we were married for 12 years and although she didn't approve or accept my cding, she tolerated it as long as I didn't do it in her presence. After 9 years of marraige she decided she wanted to go to medical school. The closest one was 500 miles away. I offered to move, giving up a law practice that was becoming quite prosperous. She said no, that she would just have to do a residentcy and internship in a different area and I would just have to move again so it didn't make any sense---after 3 years of living alone(having all the duties of marraige including sexual fidelity and financial obligations--I was the only one working and med school is expensive--- and none of the advantages--- I had enough and told her I wanted out---she then threatened to "out" me if I didn't give in to her financial demands--as it turned out they weren't that unreasonable but the gratuitous threat really left a bad taste in my mouth---these days a threat like that wouldn't work with me but this was 16 years ago in a small rural new england town and probably would have had a substantial economic impact on my practice. In any event I remember this whenever I read about whether you should tell your SO in the posts on this site. If she accepts it, then fine but just remember she may not, or if she does, she may try to use it against you if marital difficulties develop.

[Sheila]

Batty bats............... I can see you defend the rights of the cdr very well ........

[battybattybats]

Batty bats............... I can see you defend the rights of the cdr very well ........

Thankyou, but not just the rights of the CDr. Human rights are universal so by defending the rights of one and refusing to be hypocritical I therefore defend the rights of all.

:)

Whether it is oppressed women forced into indentured sexual slavery, suspected criminals tortured and denied due process, victims of racism or atheists denied the right to office for lack or religion.. human rights abuses are crimes against all humanity.

[Sarah Rabbit]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorchid]As far as Sarah Rabbit's response goes, three words, GET NEW GLASSES!!!
:Pfft:

Sarah R. :bunny:

[Sarah Rabbit]

Having read all the posts, I think I finally got the drift. If I am wrong I do apologise
Let’s take the CDing out of the equation. Does an Ex-spouse have a right to disclose any sort of information that was gained in the relationship just to satisfy a need for revenge for any hurts real or perceived. The divorce from my first wife turned into a messy, nasty drawn out affair, (something I would not wish upon any person) and you can bet she used every little thing she knew about me, with a few made up ones as well, just so should could win the custody battle. I am glad CDing was not a major factor of my life then, as she would have made good use of that as well. I would like think in a perfect world, such knowledge, would be kept between the two parties, however, I know, in this not so perfect world, there are those who have no concept of decency or fairness. Thus I chose to tell my loved ones first, negating any move by unscrupulous people, to use such knowledge against me


Sarah R. :bunny:

[Satrana]

I think this thread illustrates a certain line of mainstream thinking which believes in the fundamental divide between men and women and sees relationships as a battle of the sexes. I and others here, understand everyone to be human beings not just males and females, and everyone deserves respect especially when no crime has been committed. Revealing any personal secret from any relationship which you know will harm the other person is nothing more than revenge, an act to hurt the other or to paint yourself as the victim. Disguising revelations as "just telling the truth" does not wash.

Those feeling the need to stand up for one gender over the other completely miss the bigger picture of human rights and respect applied to everyone equally.

[battybattybats]

In defense of the actual alternative view, part of the argument isn't neccessarily 'telling the world' as a form of revenge... it can be motivated by defense (feeling that others will judge the SO because the relationship didn't work so they want to explain their reasons), it could be for support (needing to talk through their own experiences to deal with their own emotions -debriefing).

Those motivations seem reasonable, and that is the issue here. Most evils or wrongs in the world are done for reasons the doer feels are justified, by people who think they are doing the right thing. The problem is that while they seem reasonable, and are reasonable desires, they aren't sufficient to justify the consequences of the action: disrespecting the ex's privacy. That is why the answer to the 2nd reasons is to talk it over either anonymously or with someone sworn to (and trustworthy with) silence.

For some then it's not about revenge, its about trying to meet there own needs without seeing the colossal harm caused by and wrongness of the action involved. I suspect that for some the problem comes from how they determine right and wrong action.

Most people go with whatever has been seen as acceptable by examples around them which leads to all sorts of evils (sexism, racism, slavery, genocide etc).

Others get stuck in emotions.. the basic programming of the human machine, and so simply respond to the hurt they feel by assuming others are responsible for that hurt and that it is ok to hurt back without realising that it may be their feelings or the failure of themselves for not learning appropriate coping mechanisms to deal those feelings that are at fault (leading to violence, murder etc).

Still more use a haphazard mixing of the two. Using one for some things and the other for the rest with no rhyme nor reason.

Let us not forget that a reasonable part of the population, through no fault of their own, lack empathy, the essential ingrediant for sub-conciously making such decisions. Psychopaths aren't evil people and there are lots out there which is one of the single most challenging truths for the world to face. Most aren't murderers but are business leaders and politicians and we all need to change the way we deal with the world to take this into account. Even without feeling empathy or for those who can only feel it towards similar people to themselves nonetheless some simple rational observations can lead anybody to develop intellectual empathy irrespective of emotional empathy which would be enough for anyone, even psychopaths, to improve there ways of determining right and wrong and to living a better life.

If you wouldn't like it if somone did something similar to you then its wrong to do it to another.

You can claim no right that you do not freely extend to others.

Consent: Anything that directly involves a person or their possessions requires their informed consent.

Lets run this problem through the test. Former SO wants to tell her mother about CDs dressing so that she can 'get it off her chest'. However she wouldn't like it if the CD told his mother about her love of a particular kinky sex act. Therfore its wrong whether it was what broke the relationship up or not. The ex-SO wants her privacy respected so she can't disrespect her ex's or it'd be ok for him to tell people about things she'd wany kept private so she shouldn't do it. Finally she does not have his consent and as it's his privacy she's violating she needs it. Fails on all three.

[Tree GG]

This may only slightly apply to thread, but is there really a right to privacy? Isn't privacy just a nicer way to say hiding? Hiding from what?

If we accept that our life is just a short portion of our existance - reincarnation, Heaven, Nirvana, cosmic wandering, the ultimate end; whatever you believe - isn't a common thread of the pre- and after-life that the spirit is communal with all others and that there will be no secrets and all understanding, acceptance and loving of each piece returning to the whole?

In that regard, I would like to reiterate CG GG's comment about if you're ashamed of something you're doing, you better rethink what you're doing. I find that 100% true - especially in CDing. Now, that doesn't mean I live by or suggest all should advertise every deed on their roof-top. However, I do not like living my life in fear of the skeletons in the closet (or wigs & breastforms, as it were). I see the goal to let them be what they are and not be ashamed of their presence. If I am ashamed of them, I should discard them or face that shame, identify it, then accept or dismiss its validity. Either way the shame no longer controls my life and I can feel good about myself knowing I have chosen, not been pushed.

Now there are petty people who will defame your character because your car isn't the right model. These people, and those who gives their words validity, are really bored or hiding their own secrets. If a spouse used CDing as a weapon in court, wouldn't that weapon be negated by the CDer standing up and saying, "Yes, I am transgendered; I do/do not intend to transition; I believe I am blessed/afflicted w/ a natural anomoly that only a very few people get to experience and I have a broader perspective on life as I am a member of a minority who suffers discriminations in their full spectrum."

By tucking your tail and avoiding the simple truth, you leave the door open for inaccurate and broad mistruths to flourish and have power. Only by shining a light on a subject can you remove the shadow of danger or "wrongness".

The CD may want to avoid his/her transgenderedness being public knowledge (for very valid & realistic reasons), but once it's out there it can only be a weapon if you let it be. And any good lawyer knows that & can call the bluff before it becomes matter of public record. Any in your private life, if you hold your head high, smile and express genuine pity that your soon-to-be-x has resorted to mud-slinging, you'll be the "better" person.

[battybattybats]

is there really a right to privacy? Isn't privacy just a nicer way to say hiding? Hiding from what?


Yes. Yes there really is. It's not hiding, privacy is that which you are not required to share, its that which is deeply personal and cherished on that account. Some may be happy for example to have sex in front of others, some may feel ashamed.. that shame need not come from getting caught doing something shameful rather it can be from having something so deeply personal exposed that the person does not want exposed. Now while there is nothing wrong with consentual exhibitionism it's hardly for everyone. I need not be willing to have sex in front of someone else to have sex (actualy it doesn't bother me but the principle is valid).


If we accept that our life is just a short portion of our existance - reincarnation, Heaven, Nirvana, cosmic wandering, the ultimate end; whatever you believe - isn't a common thread of the pre- and after-life that the spirit is communal with all others and that there will be no secrets and all understanding, acceptance and loving of each piece returning to the whole?


Well, there are lots of materialistic atheists out there who are still good people. That argument won't work for them, actually it might be inverse, if that's what happens after death why bother being open now? However if this life is all there is then there is lots of incentive to be open and honest and to live the best, the noblest, the most satisfying and brave life. Now If I recall my Eastern Metaphysics lectures correctly only part of the self is communal, some is that which is uniquely you (there are multiple souls in each person) which is never shared and then there is also the soul which is yours but is also simultaneously in all others.. it's complicated stuff. And beliefs of the afterlife are extraordinarily varied, in plenty there are no such relevations. Also while some eastern philosophies reccomend a loss or destruction of sense of self as a path to enlightenment many others state that as the ultimate evil and instead advocate a solidifying of self. Some forms of bhudism state that only those with an intense and solid sense of self can survive conciously beyond death to move on to the next level which is the exact opposite of such surrender and openness.

In an ideal world sure it'd be great for everyone to just be themselves openly. Unfortunatly people like myself who are openly different (try being an intelligent, gentle, sensitive, book reading goth teen in a redneck mining town.. it was no picnic!) must sometimes be prepared for a fight for that right. It takes bravery sometimes.

And shame acrued unconsciously takes a lot of work to shift.. beliefs held for years, especially in childhood can take a lot of work to shake, that's why Dawkins goes so far to suggest that religious instruction of children is child abuse, it's why many religious and occult traditions advocate blaspheming all that someone has previously believed in to gain true unbiased and clear understanding. Bhuddism has some great rights of blasphemy for monks to shed the religious attachments to the bhudda required to reach enlightenment for example. So while what you advocate, challenging your shame responses, is a good thing it isn't neccessarily so easy for many to do.

There was a lovely sentiment from a german philosopher, that even if your actions are repressed, if even your speech is repressed, in your mind you have privacy and there you may have total freedom.

I find it concerning the argument that people should share certain aspects of themselves with others. Isn't that an excessive restriction on freedom? Surely a person should be free to decide how much of themselves they share with anyone. There are a few exceptions.. if I'm carrying a virulent and deadly disease then I have a responsibility to tell people. On the other hand do I need to tell every minute detail of my past relationships and complete sexual history to others?

Total honesty requires total trust.. and that is an unreasonable expectation, of individuals and especially of mobs. Human beings are after all human. The degree to which you open up to someone depends on the degree to which they have earned your trust. Even in relationships that takes years and by some of the examples people have given it is clearly not to be assumed.

For enlightened self interest however being out seems to be the most rewarding for those whom it suits.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I think Jess made a very valid and interesting statement and as long as the ex is not telling people to hurt you i dont see how any of us have a reasonable argument to force her to not talk about it...we have every right and reason to ask the ex, and try to work out an arrangement but let's be real..unless you met your wife through cd'ing, your wife has every right to not approve of it..its totally her choice...


i didnt tell my wife about my cding...i felt at the time that it "didnt matter"

boy oh boy was i wrong....when i finally did tell her , it was the final straw and in hindsight, not a very good strategy to stay married///LOL>..

anyway. its 2 yrs after the breakup and now its final, i think the divorce is the best thing to happen for me...

i told my wife she could tell whoever she wanted... i told her it was up to her...
in the end, i put her in the position of keeping my secret and i'm sorry girlfriends there is no way i consider that telling her was a "gift"

in fact i think it is a burden i handed to her... what right do i have to tell my exwife what to say??? i kept a secret for her, then i told her my secret and then does anyone really beleive i have the right to tell her to keep my secret?
me keeping secrets got us into this!!

if an ex-wife wants to tell a friend or family member the "truth" then who am i to tell her not too...


in the end,
she told one friend and has never told anyone else...i've met that friend twice and she was totally nice to me and made no mention of anything..

now that we are finalized and money and custody is settled, my wife and i are friendly and our 2 children are MUCH MUCH BETTER FOR IT!!!...i think both of us being thoughtful about how we handled crossdressing made a big difference

[battybattybats]

There is a difference between not approving of it and telling others about it. She has every right not to like it but no right whatsoever to betray anothers right to privacy. Just because it worked out fine for some who waived there right does not make it ok for anyone else.

Exactly what would give her that right? Would she also have the right to tell others your bank account number or the functionality of your reproductive parts? Would it be ok for you to tell others about the particulars of her orgasms or to post naked pics of her on the net?

[jen]

I told my EX while we were dating. She was "fine" with that. Was okay for a while but I really never dressed all the way as Jenny but once or twice. Crossdressing was maybe 50% of the reason we were divorced, towards the end i guess I tried to force more of it on her then she wanted. we had other problems too. She says she loves me but can't live with "Jenny". Felt like she was loving a woman instead of a man. Was married 4 years & divorced about the same now, she is supporting of my crossdressing and even helps me shop & gives me an occasional makeover. My pic was taken by her after she gave me a makeover. But a SO that would tell everyone I think is the biggest nightmare of us closet crossdressers!

[Marla S]

Marla S ......... I am happy that you both were able to work out your parting in a way that allowed you both to walk away with dignity ......... and like i said nowhere do i advocate the use of CDing as a weapon against a pertner in the breakup of a relationship ever......... but in all honesty it is as Emma said 99% of the time both parties talk to family and friends about the breakup and the why's of it .. we do that as part of the healing process in many cases and not just for revenge
Oh, I am happy too.:happy: CG GG is definitvely not deserving my rant.

I agree that talking is an important part of the healing process.
There is a right to talk about the reasons for the breakup.
Sometimes it is even a duty (abuse, cruelty and the like).

The problem with CDing IMO is that it is almost impossible to talk about it in a fair way. There are way too many prejudices, it is all too easy to find the wrong box without almost no chance to escape ... the reasons we know all too good, because these reasons bring us here, usually make us to hide it from our SOs, family, friends, employers.

The imbalance of the actual effects of CDing, and the negative effects of being outed unintended is just to big for the CD to have a fair chance to put it straight.

This makes it a very delicate subject to talk about IMO, not the CDing itself.






In that regard, I would like to reiterate CG GG's comment about if you're ashamed of something you're doing, you better rethink what you're doing. I find that 100% true - especially in CDing. Now, that doesn't mean I live by or suggest all should advertise every deed on their roof-top. However, I do not like living my life in fear of the skeletons in the closet (or wigs & breastforms, as it were). I see the goal to let them be what they are and not be ashamed of their presence. If I am ashamed of them, I should discard them or face that shame, identify it, then accept or dismiss its validity. Either way the shame no longer controls my life and I can feel good about myself knowing I have chosen, not been pushed.

Tree, I agree to your post.

BUT: The problem is even if you are not ashamed, you think CDing makes you a more complete person, gives you happy moments, gives you the energy to give more love to others, etc. quite often it doesn't count much.

I am not ashamed of my CDing, but I have angst and fear that if the wrong people would know they will use this aspect of my self, which makes me ... as already mentioned ... a more happy and complete person as a weapon to give me a hard time. I get stamped by people I thought would know better (... because they are sooo "educated and open minded")

In addition IMO most CDs live in a vicious circle.
Due to angst and fear of social repressions we are forced into the closet ... be it the own home, a short drive with the car, an anonymous walk through a mall, or some clubs, or CD conventions.
Because this aspect of our lives is restricted this way, we almost have no chance to learn a "normal" way of living with CDing or a "normal" development of the personality, not even a "normal way" of dressing.
But this not so "normal" way of living and developement is made ... even kind of in your post ... an argument for the "weirdness" of CDing.
So we better stay in the closet, with the effect that we perhaps appear more weird, having self-doubt. etc.


Any in your private life, if you hold your head high, smile and express genuine pity that your soon-to-be-x has resorted to mud-slinging, you'll be the "better" person.
You are definitively right, but if it would be easy to hold the head high and smile constantly, we probably wouldn't have to talk about it.
My personal experience tells me: Having accepted myself and my CDing is not a sufficient condition for that. It needs a lot of strength to maintain that smile. All to often the smile freezes and becomes a grimace.

[Tree GG]

... It needs a lot of strenght to maintain that smile. ....

Oh, I was never suggesting it was easy! Inner strength is the hardest to come by. It's easy to be strong w/ back-up; it's hardest to stand firmly alone (or nearly so). But I've always found that those who insist they are right the loudest, are usually the ones who are either wrong, or just plain scary. I've seen the regret, the doubt, the remorse, the anger that accompanies a "bad" coming out. It would take a fool to not dread that. HOWEVER, if something is good for you, doesn't hurt anyone, there should not be shame. So easy to say, much harder to do.

Batty, all good philosophical points, but I stand behind my original statement. Just because the ideal may not be realistically attainable doesn't mean it still isn't ideal. In a perfect world, there's no need for privacy. Anyone who witnessed your actions would've done so inadvertently and not out of curiosity or espionage. I wouldn't care what you're doing as I'd have complete faith and respect and love for you, and you for me. No more adversaries.

Of course that's unrealistic in the foreseeable future. However no action or comment by another can be a weapon unless you give it that power. Wasn't it Eleanor Roosevelt who said, "No one can make you a victim without your consent."

[Marla S]

Oh, I was never suggesting it was easy! Inner strength is the hardest to come by. It's easy to be strong w/ back-up; it's hardest to stand firmly alone (or nearly so). But I've always found that those who insist they are right the loudest, are usually the ones who are either wrong, or just plain scary. I've seen the regret, the doubt, the remorse, the anger that accompanies a "bad" coming out. It would take a fool to not dread that. HOWEVER, if something is good for you, doesn't hurt anyone, there should not be shame. So easy to say, much harder to do.

You are right again.

Maybe shame is the wrong term here, though.

I feel no shame, I am not ashamed of myself ... maybe never really felt this way ... it is rather a question of being self-confident. Personally I gained self-assuredness due to this forum, but not enough to constantly stand being out on a limb (which I feel I am, living fairly open). There are times when I think about sneeking back in the closet again, start a "subulture life", or a double life ... not because I would have to hide something, but because I can't stand the pressure anymore that I feel trying to live a "regular" live with Cding.


A considerable lack of self-assuredness certainly contributes to being hypersensitive and my heated replys here and elsewhere.

[renee99]

Batty, all good philosophical points, but I stand behind my original statement. Just because the ideal may not be realistically attainable doesn't mean it still isn't ideal. In a perfect world, there's no need for privacy. Anyone who witnessed your actions would've done so inadvertently and not out of curiosity or espionage. I wouldn't care what you're doing as I'd have complete faith and respect and love for you, and you for me. No more adversaries.

Actually that's the problem. Everyone has a different definition of "love". To some people "love" involves stopping you from doing things that they see a problem with. That is why privacy is necessary. To prevent well-meaning busybodies from interfering in your pursuit of happiness.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

batty

i simply dont agree that anyone has a "right" to privacy??? i dont even know what that is...i certainly would hope that if i told you something and please dont tell anyone else that you wouldnt ....but by telling you i simply dont keep my right....i choose to tell you...i choose to trust you and then i must deal with it from there...if you tell my "secret" and betray my confidence, ranting about my "right" to privacy gains me nothing.

i felt a little dig at me in your comments batty but thats ok.. i understand...this is important stuff to us....

so for me privacy is not a "right" that we "have"...it is a choice we make about others and they make about us.. (its also a choice we make a bout ourselves)...

when i think of tg issues, i'm simply trying to make the point that the SO/GG is being given some major baggage to carry and in the real world none of us should be surprised if she has trouble carrying that weight..
if you got married, and you "protected" your "right" to privacy and then 10 years later you tell your wife that you like to feel or dress or be a woman...then you can't go back and say well i have a right to privacy so you can't tell anyone else...it just doesnt work that way...

[battybattybats]

Batty, all good philosophical points, but I stand behind my original statement. Just because the ideal may not be realistically attainable doesn't mean it still isn't ideal. In a perfect world, there's no need for privacy. Anyone who witnessed your actions would've done so inadvertently and not out of curiosity or espionage. I wouldn't care what you're doing as I'd have complete faith and respect and love for you, and you for me. No more adversaries.

Well moral/ethical philosophy is one area that can be very much practically applied to real life unlike much of the abstract notions of much of the rest of philosophy. A perfect world (Plato aside) does not exist to our practicle knowledge so it really doesn't have a lot of bearing when dealing with real people. Yes, some people (myself included) are idealists and strive to live in an ideal way. However that idealism does need to be tempered with a little realism. There are people who are unable to live up to an ideal, there are people whose ideals do not concur with mine. Accepting these truths means that ideals must only be applied to your own self and also under the understanding that others will definately not live by them. I've seen all too many noble and altruistic people harmed by doing the right thing to the wrong people. I'm still altruistic and idealistic but I have to keep reminding myself that when judging the views of others and objective rather than subjective notions of right and wrong a certain degree of realism must be considered to avoid making theoretically right but practically wrong choices.


i simply dont agree that anyone has a "right" to privacy??? i dont even know what that is...i certainly would hope that if i told you something and please dont tell anyone else that you wouldnt ....but by telling you i simply dont keep my right....i choose to tell you...i choose to trust you and then i must deal with it from there...if you tell my "secret" and betray my confidence, ranting about my "right" to privacy gains me nothing.

Well it is a moral, an ethical and, in most of the western world, a legal right. I'd reccomend looking into the origins of human rights for the details so as not to drag the thread off-topic.

You are right that from a standpoint of personal responsibility/consequence if you tell somone else something you want to keep private that after that you cannot assure that they keep that trust (though there can sometimes be legal recourse it's generaly punative and after-the-fact). Using that model of thinking though isn't it justifiable to keep anything from a spouse that they might be able to hurt you with if things don't work out in the future? (there's just another reason why I favour arguments of universal human rights to utilitarian arguments of consequence based right and wrong!)


i felt a little dig at me in your comments batty but thats ok.. i understand...this is important stuff to us....

Believe me none was intended and I sincerely apologise for anything that might seem that way. Sorry! :hugs:


so for me privacy is not a "right" that we "have"...it is a choice we make about others and they make about us.. (its also a choice we make a bout ourselves)...

Well it depends on your view of rights, what they are and where they come from, however if you agree with the US constitution, the U.N. Decleration on Human Rights etc then it's an inalienable right that sits alongside the right to life, liberty etc.


when i think of tg issues, i'm simply trying to make the point that the SO/GG is being given some major baggage to carry and in the real world none of us should be surprised if she has trouble carrying that weight..

Of course. Though is the CD responsible for that? Why is the baggage major? Why is it difficult for many to bear? Who is responsible for those things? Who is responsible for the baggage a CD has to bear? If no-one is responsible by action for these things, is anyone responsible by inaction for them?


if you got married, and you "protected" your "right" to privacy and then 10 years later you tell your wife that you like to feel or dress or be a woman...then you can't go back and say well i have a right to privacy so you can't tell anyone else...it just doesnt work that way...

Why doesn't it work that way though? Just because a CD discovers there nature after marriage or only comes to terms with it sufficiently to share it after marriage or only comes to trust their SO after marriage does that mean they no longer have the same rights as everyone else? Does that mean that they should be punished by having their worst fears, those that drove them to keep this private in the first place, made to come to pass?

Why is it that most people would think it bad for an SO to decry his/her ex's infertility or impotence to the public but somehow it's ok to tell people about the crossdressing?

And what of those that tell their SO's before marriage but live in countries/states without protection from discrimination. Do they have a reasonable right to privacy that the other does not?

Lastly I want to say that I bear no-one here the slightest malice and even those I strongly disagree with I still very much admire and respect.
:hugs: for everyone.

[Country girl]

This may only slightly apply to thread, but is there really a right to privacy? Isn't privacy just a nicer way to say hiding? Hiding from what?

If we accept that our life is just a short portion of our existance - reincarnation, Heaven, Nirvana, cosmic wandering, the ultimate end; whatever you believe - isn't a common thread of the pre- and after-life that the spirit is communal with all others and that there will be no secrets and all understanding, acceptance and loving of each piece returning to the whole?

In that regard, I would like to reiterate CG GG's comment about if you're ashamed of something you're doing, you better rethink what you're doing. I find that 100% true - especially in CDing. Now, that doesn't mean I live by or suggest all should advertise every deed on their roof-top. However, I do not like living my life in fear of the skeletons in the closet (or wigs & breastforms, as it were). I see the goal to let them be what they are and not be ashamed of their presence. If I am ashamed of them, I should discard them or face that shame, identify it, then accept or dismiss its validity. Either way the shame no longer controls my life and I can feel good about myself knowing I have chosen, not been pushed.

Now there are petty people who will defame your character because your car isn't the right model. These people, and those who gives their words validity, are really bored or hiding their own secrets. If a spouse used CDing as a weapon in court, wouldn't that weapon be negated by the CDer standing up and saying, "Yes, I am transgendered; I do/do not intend to transition; I believe I am blessed/afflicted w/ a natural anomoly that only a very few people get to experience and I have a broader perspective on life as I am a member of a minority who suffers discriminations in their full spectrum."

By tucking your tail and avoiding the simple truth, you leave the door open for inaccurate and broad mistruths to flourish and have power. Only by shining a light on a subject can you remove the shadow of danger or "wrongness".

The CD may want to avoid his/her transgenderedness being public knowledge (for very valid & realistic reasons), but once it's out there it can only be a weapon if you let it be. And any good lawyer knows that & can call the bluff before it becomes matter of public record. Any in your private life, if you hold your head high, smile and express genuine pity that your soon-to-be-x has resorted to mud-slinging, you'll be the "better" person.

Exactly! Thanks Tree, I'm glad you got what I was trying to say. I'm not suggesting that it is ok for the spose to run out and tell but you explained it perfectly. Thankyou! :hugs: CG GG