Passing (or rather not passing)

[jenni_xx]

I have read so many posts about passing in public, and how this is so important in terms of gaining our confidence. This is obviously totally understandable. But one thing struck me today.

And that is how much we would like CD'ing to become as accepted as a "norm" (I use that term loosely). A lot of us have recounted stories about how we have gone out en femme and not been clocked as being a man-in-a-dress, and how good this feels on a personal level, especially to our confidence. But, if you do go out, and nobody notices that you are a guy, then this means that others will merely regarded you as another women. Which begs the question: what good does this do to the crossdressing cause? The answer is it does absolutely nothing. If nobody realises that you aren't a woman, then nobody realises that you are a CD, thus the issue of crossdressing doesn't even come into it in regards of other people. So this doesn't help our cause one bit.

In other words, it seems like it is a bit like a double edged sword. If we pass, then there is no issue. If we don't pass, then it is an issue, but then we don't want NOT to pass. We want to look like women, but at the same time want a level of equality that affords us not to be discriminated against for being crossdressers.

With this in mind, doesn't the true barometer of acceptance lie in us being recognised for what we actually are: men dressed as women? How good would it be to be able to walk down the street dressed as a woman but being recognised as a man dressed as a woman, and not to be harassed, or feel threatened, or feel fear?

How do we combact such a predicament? Grow a beard and wear a dress with pride? It would be an answer, except that I don't want to express such a duality of appearance. In short, I guess what I am asking is...

...How can we expect to be accepted, when what we don't want is to stand out of the crowd, but merge silently within it?

[chucks]

i agree. i have gone out twice so far. both times in boy mode but in definitely femme clothing. i think it is the only way. i drew a lot of attention, but that's okay. with confidence, there is no issue. open mind open heart open gut.

[JamesAlan]

From my perspective, to look like a man in a dress is not why most cross dress to start with. They want to look and feel feminine. It's an image and feeling that's wanting to be found. The desire for society to accept transgenders and crossdressers is to have the right to be a pretty woman with "a little something extra" in her bloomers and not be harrassed for it. But that's just my thoughts on it.

[RobertaFermina]

Dear Jenni,

I don't believe I ever pass, and I seldom learn from anyone that I have been "clocked".

I belong out there and, I believe, people get it and accept me.

I grant that I dress to impress and present an authentic approximation of womanhood (or girlhood :heehee: ).

Folks usually won't tell me that they know the difference if it doesn't matter to them. My maleness doesn't matter to polite people. Impolite people must be fooled or avoided. I have been called Sir twice in the last month, and both times by the same Barista at a particular Starbuck's. Must be her training, 'cause she was very polite in tone or expression.

I think "passing" as a woman can be distinguished from "passing as a CD". Passing as a CD means making an effort to fulfill with all diligence what is expected of a thoughtful feminine person...regardless of my size, shape, or facial hair. If I move and behave in step with my dress, then I am most likely to be accepted. If I camp it up, dress sloppy, or do not attend to my hygeine or health, I will be judged as any person of any gender would....and may hear of it.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Diana_BiMale_CD]

I'll have to agree with Alana I would love to pass. The public opinion of men dressing as women will never change I don't think. Most "normal" men just can't accept it, the macho thing and all. Women, could probably accept it in time. But I feel very feminine and like that feeling, would love to live as a woman in female clothing, however this feeling came to me late in life and I am married to a wonderful straight woman. I would never hurt her, therefore I have to stay in the closet. Just my two cents worth. :2c:

[Toyah]

I supose I am the odd one out in that I dont want to be accepted by the public.
I dress for me I dont need or want to feel fem I adore the clothes but not some of the BS that goes with wearing em.
There may be a few times when I go out but these are rare, I have no need for societys acceptance of Toyah and dont feel compelled to rally for the total acceptance of wearing what you want in public. Watch the horrified looks here if I say its the same as nudists wanting to walk the streets, this would not bother me but the prudes would be up in arms about it. Its exactly the same thing society has rules you may not like em but they are there.
Guys in dresses I really cannot see the point but if thats what you want to do fine but you are gonna get a lot of stick for it if you venture out. would you be happy with a guy wearing baby clothes in your high street? or a guy in a suit and thigh boots think about it!!!!

[Violetgray]

What an interesting question! I'm not sure I have any definite answers, but consider the following...

Safety seems to be a primary issue. People generally don't like to be attacked in public, and so for many, it could be as simple as behavior vs. risk.

The question also assumes that crossdressing is a "cause," and this is not necessarily the case. For many of us its an internal yearning, and I've always felt that ultimately crossdressing is not about how others look at you, but how you feel about yourself. In other words I think crossdressing is about emotion, and I doubt many city-going trannies would intentionally masculinize their appearance in some way to prove a point.

And besides, wouldn't that defeat the purpose? What would be the point of of toning down the very thing we want the right to do?

Ever heard the saying perfection is a road, not a destination? Most of us will never pass 100%, but we try to do femininity justice. I just think it would be nice if they didn't blame us for trying, thats all.

:2c:

[Shelly Preston]

Hi jenni

I would disagree with your saying it does the cause no good

Very few are good enough to pass in public and not be noticed

Its a matter of passing enough that we do no get ridiculed in public

[DeeInGeorgia]

As I posted a little while back on my trip to New Orleans, after doing all that work helping my sister move, I was hot, and tired and didn't feel like wearing a wig and shaving, so I was out in public at IHOP and CrackerBarrels with red nails and breast forms, and even helped one heavily tattooed young man get his car running at a truck stop.

Dee

[sandra-leigh]

Guys in dresses I really cannot see the point but if thats what you want to do fine but you are gonna get a lot of stick for it if you venture out. would you be happy with a guy wearing baby clothes in your high street? or a guy in a suit and thigh boots think about it!!!!

I've gone out "doing everyday things" as a guy in a skirt and femme top (or even blouse), and not had any difficulty or any negative comments. (Well, one guy told me my unitard "looked stupid"). I've gone out as a guy in a dress a couple of times, though I have only gone out and interacted with the public as a guy in a dress a small number of times; I didn't have any problems (other than the difficulty of breaking through my own internal barriers.) I've lost count of the number of times I've gone out with a bra and forms making a noticable (but not necessarily blatant) bulge -- i.e., as "a guy with boobs". No problems there either.

When I do go out fully dressed, I get "read" by a noticable number of people; I eve get some compliments from people who know that I'm crossdressing.

So far, the only problems I've had were from some guys in their late teens or early 20's -- twice a group of them in front of (the same) movie theatre, and once a solitary guy in a car... which was much more creepy as he followed me, complimenting me and taking pictures and asking me if I "wanted some work later tonight". I've gotten some snickers on the odd occasion (e.g., high heels outside a local pharmacy), but few people care enough even to bother to scowl.

Thus your "you are gonna get a lot of stick for it if you venture out" comment turns out not to be the case, at least not around here.

Your comparison to a guy wearing baby clothes on high street was very disappointing. If you look in the pictures forum at my "A guy in a dress" thread, you will find pictures of exactly what I looked like the last time I went out in public in a dress while in guy mode. You will, I believe, find that the outfit was not at all disrespectable; I've had at least four different people tell me in person that it looks really good on me. Comparing that to baby clothes is presumptuous and not very respectful of those of us who are most comfortable "somewhere in the middle".

[Stephenie S]

I have read so many posts about passing in public, and how this is so important in terms of gaining our confidence. This is obviously totally understandable. But one thing struck me today.

And that is how much we would like CD'ing to become as accepted as a "norm" (I use that term loosely). A lot of us have recounted stories about how we have gone out en femme and not been clocked as being a man-in-a-dress, and how good this feels on a personal level, especially to our confidence. But, if you do go out, and nobody notices that you are a guy, then this means that others will merely regarded you as another women. Which begs the question: what good does this do to the crossdressing cause? The answer is it does absolutely nothing. If nobody realises that you aren't a woman, then nobody realises that you are a CD, thus the issue of crossdressing doesn't even come into it in regards of other people. So this doesn't help our cause one bit.

In other words, it seems like it is a bit like a double edged sword. If we pass, then there is no issue. If we don't pass, then it is an issue, but then we don't want NOT to pass. We want to look like women, but at the same time want a level of equality that affords us not to be discriminated against for being crossdressers.

With this in mind, doesn't the true barometer of acceptance lie in us being recognised for what we actually are: men dressed as women? How good would it be to be able to walk down the street dressed as a woman but being recognised as a man dressed as a woman, and not to be harassed, or feel threatened, or feel fear?

How do we combact such a predicament? Grow a beard and wear a dress with pride? It would be an answer, except that I don't want to express such a duality of appearance. In short, I guess what I am asking is...

...How can we expect to be accepted, when what we don't want is to stand out of the crowd, but merge silently within it?

Well, we are certainly not on the same page here, you and I. Some of what you say I agree with, but much I do not. So where to start?

The cause? What cause? My cause? What's that? I want to be left alone to live my life. I also want to dress in a manner that is congruent with my inner feelings. Those feelings that tell me, and have always told me, that deep down, I am a woman. Is that my cause? Is it yours?

So I want to be accepted, just like you, I guess. I do want to merge silently with the crowd.

Now, I don't want to be accepted as a man in a dress (setting aside the fact that I own no dresses). I want to be accepted as a person. Pretty much, I think I am. I wear women's clothes. Sometimes very feminine, but mostly pretty low key. Just jeans and a feminine top. To the guy who waited on me in Sears this afternoon, I am sure that he "read" me as a guy. I was raised as a guy, and I have a pretty masculine body. Anyone would have to be blind and deaf in the middle of the night to imagine that I was a natal woman. Yet he addressed me as Stephenie (the name on my Land's End account), was very pleasent and polite, and showed absolutely NO indication that I was in any way something other than a just another customer. That's my cause!

I am not sure that I want to be recognised as a man dressed as a woman. I just want to be me. These "women's" clothes that I wear are not really women's clothes. They are my clothes. I bought them. So they are now my clothes. I don't dress to be a woman, I dress to be me. Now I happen to believe that I am already a woman. These are the clothes I want to wear, so these are the clothes that I do wear.

Now, do I want to "pass"? I'm not sure exactly what that means. Very few of us can "pass" all the time with all of the people. I think that very few of us have gone out dressed and not been "clocked". The best that most of us can hope for is to blend in. To not attract any undue attention, and to dress in such a way so as to not offend when we are "clocked". We have male bodies, most of us. Anyone who looks (and listens) closely can usually tell that we are not natal women.

So what do I want? Just leave me alone. Let me live my life. Let me dress how I choose. That's my cause. I am, hopefully, furthering your "cause" just by being out there, living my life, dressed the way I want. That's probably the best we can hope for.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Sally24]

I find my own way with both worlds. I go out by myself or with my SO and usually pass pretty well. Just do the girly things like shopping and touring.

Then again, I also go out with a T-girl group. Most of us look pretty good, but when you have 6 or 8 women and most of them are over 6' 2" people are going to know they are T-girls. We meet alot of people and answer alot of questions. Just think of it as a public sevice with dancing! lol

This year I've also lobbied at the State House for legislation (in a dress) and marched in the Boston Pride Parade.

So I think you can both pass and make a difference. It's a balancing act but one I think more of us could do.

[OC-crossdresser]

WELL my :2c: is this

ok this is what I would like... to be accepted not as a man nor as a girl...but accepted as me...i am a guy...if i wear a skirt and tight top (no bra) in still a guy...if you wear a bra THATS different it means your TRYING to be a girl...i love girls clothing..yes yes i do love bras BUT I'm saying i want to be able to wear a thong with my baggy pants (as i am now :heehee:) and be accepted as a man...no matter what a wear..

[Rachel Morley]

What a great thread and great questions. IMHO it is of course true that if you want to "further the cause" and not have this rigid bi-gendered world that says guys can't openly wear women's clothes without passing and without negative comments from several different areas, then "not quite passing" is the way to go.

If a person looks "enough like a woman" not to be too offensive to certain people in certain public situations, but you do "let the cat out if the bag" (so to speak) and this sort of thing happens enough that everyone is doing it so much, that it becomes common-place in society that would be awesome.

I know one person from our Sacramento Delta Girls TG group that once got some smiles and sniggers when shopping at a Khols one time. She walked over to the two women and asked them "am I such a rare sight?" and they said "actually yes you are, we've heard of crossdressers but we've never actually met one in real life".

So yeah, the more people who know that we are what we are, the more acceptance (eventually) we will get. However, it does take courage to blaze that trail and be the person who lets people know that we are not all we appear to be. I myself am not there yet :(

[Sugar]

What an interesting question! I'm not sure I have any definite answers, but consider the following...

Safety seems to be a primary issue. People generally don't like to be attacked in public, and so for many, it could be as simple as behavior vs. risk.

The question also assumes that crossdressing is a "cause," and this is not necessarily the case. For many of us its an internal yearning, and I've always felt that ultimately crossdressing is not about how others look at you, but how you feel about yourself. In other words I think crossdressing is about emotion, and I doubt many city-going trannies would intentionally masculinize their appearance in some way to prove a point.

And besides, wouldn't that defeat the purpose? What would be the point of of toning down the very thing we want the right to do?

Ever heard the saying perfection is a road, not a destination? Most of us will never pass 100%, but we try to do femininity justice. I just think it would be nice if they didn't blame us for trying, thats all.

:2c:

Ever hear of "War Queens"? I grew up in the 60's and remember being invited to join a group that just went around and stirred up shit while in drag. I declined, but did come across some ugliness. These guy's were violent. I remember that Buck was the one that asked me to join. He was really macho at school. And Violetgray, this was Maryland.


peace


jaye

[sandra-leigh]

if i wear a skirt and tight top (no bra) in still a guy...if you wear a bra THATS different it means your TRYING to be a girl

Well, after reading a line like that, I had to stop and go put on a knee-length denim skirt, knee-highs, T-shirt over forms, and bicycle over to the shopping centre for some grocery shopping -- as a guy. Clothes that would be "I'm just running a few errands" on a woman. Was I wearing a bra? Yup, and my "bust" was about as visible as on any woman wearing a casual T-shirt on her way to pick up some milk and bread. Was I "TRYING to be a girl"? No -- I was being me, and me is someone of mixed gender. Possibly I "passed" at a distance (my hair is getting longer again), but no-one within 100 feet would take my face as female (and I don't move like a woman either.) I wasn't trying to convince anyone that I was female; on the other hand, if they went away with the notion that the line between male and female isn't so strict after-all, then I wouldn't object :D

I got a really great double-take from an elderly lady; I could see she was just about to line up with a small number of items, so I told her to go ahead of me; when she focused on me and saw my skirt and modest bust, her eyes grew pretty wide for a moment -- but she recovered quickly and thanked me with no more pause than would be expected for someone whose mind had been on something else. And after that, I wasn't "news" for her -- I was just another shopper, neither stared at nor avoided. Which, of course, is exactly the point: I dressed up the way I wanted, and I was as accepted as any other polite person.




What a great thread and great questions. IMHO it is
of course true that if you want to "further the cause" and not have this rigid bi-gendered world that says guys can't openly wear women's clothes without passing and without negative comments from several different areas, then "not quite passing" is the way to go.


I've been reading this thread, and thinking, "This is exactly the same question faced by homosexuals a few decades ago. Do you just blend to be left alone to live your life in peace, or do you "dress gay" to show that there's a lot of gays around? Do you engage in obvious PDAs (Public Displays of Affection)? Do you go clothes shopping with your gay partner and don't bother hiding that you are "together" ("I want to buy something for my boyfriend")? Do you have seperate clubs, exclusive clubs, mixed clubs, or do you go to regular clubs "because society will never learn to accept two guys dancing together if we don't take our dancing out into regular clubs" ? Do you "march gay"? Do you come out to society in general, or do you not tell people and let them draw their own conclusions, or do you "come out" to a few close friends and hope they won't disown you?"

[Michelle (Oz)]

The question of educating others is an important one. My response is conditional.

My goal is to present as naturally femme as possible, i.e. dressed age and circumstance appropriately, mannerisms, nice jewelry, etc, but this is to please how I like to see and feel about myself. My goal has the effect of also helping to blend and I suppose ultimately pass. In reality though, at 6 feet, 220 lbs and a male voice passing isn't possible to any observant person.

There are times though that not being read is important to me. One is when using ladies bath rooms. Here it's head down and no speaking. Another time is in areas where I may know people who can't know about me (by agreement with my SO).

Most other times I am happy for folk to know I am male dressed as female and 99% of the time, people are very open. I hope I can educate these people who will also talk positively to others.

Michelle (Oz)

[sterling12]

Getting back to Jenni's original premise. I agree, if we are successful enough to not be noticed: Bingo. we do "The Cause" no good!

And "The Cause" my dears, has just been discussed in another thread that ran this week. The whole purpose is: "Whether or not as a Group, Cd's will ever achieve acceptance." My personal thoughts are that we might achieve tolerance, but probably never acceptance. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try! The person who felt she was not part of any cause, has the right to feel that way....but it just ain't so! If your Cd and want to venture out in public, your part of that cause. "The Cause," is to try and gain recognition and a little respect.

Jenni, I've been hangin' with gals who are very convincing but here's the reality. Sometimes I have accompanied some of my friends, with myself presenting as a male, (Theory is if your out shopping with a male, you will look like a couple, less likely to get "clocked".) I watch the people around them, and I have yet to see any Gal not get read at least several times in a day. Most people are too polite to confront in a situation like this so it doesn't seem to matter.

Perhaps, just being out there might Help "The Cause." If enough of us are visible, eventually we might become just some other person, worthy of a glance and very little more. (Sigh,) how lovely that would be!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Kate Simmons]

What "cause"? As far as I know, everyone approaches this individually and has no feelings about what any other crossdressers feel about it. In short, we are in it for ourselves and not the "greater good". Be that as it may, my purpose is not to pass anyway but to have a good time. In fact, I prefer if others know I'm really a guy but I'm not going to wear a sign saying so. If I "pass" in the meantime and people can't tell the difference, oh well. I make no special efforts to act, walk, move or talk like a woman when I'm en femme. If prople still want to think I'm a woman, okay I guess but I didn't tell them that and it was their own assumption. In the meantime, I just have fun being myself, which is what my goal is anyway.:happy:

[jenni_xx]

Thank you so much for all your replies (I hadn't expected so many so quickly).

I seem to have caused a bit of a stir with my use of the word "cause". Sterling has, for me, summed this up perfectly - that is, "achieving acceptance". This, in my opinion, can come in a variety of ways - social, wide-spread acceptance, acceptance from our families and friends, acceptance from our SO's. It can even simply be an acceptance of ourselves - which I believe is a journey in and of itself.

For example, I know I have felt incredibly nervous and tentative about going outside. Overcoming our own fears and nerves is one of the biggest obstacles we will ever face. Taking that first step outside, scared to death of how we will be reacted to, scared to death of even being seen. A vast amount of crossdressers will never ever allow themselves to "escape" from their own homes. There is an undoubted comparison here to gay people who come out (and I thank tess-leigh for pointing this out). Homosexuality has gained a lot more acceptance over the years. Of course, there are still a great many closeted gay men and women who for whatever reason will not, or simply can not come out, but as acceptance towards homosexuality has increased, more and more people have found the courage, confidence, and support that has enabled them to express their true identity. I think this is what I am getting at my post which opened this thread. I've walked down the street with a friend who, upon spotting two gay men holding hands, reacted by saying how nice that was that they feel confident that they can express such affection in public. The same friend, upon seeing an obvious cross-dresser, had a giggle. Of course, this is just a singular example, and in no way is it my intention to generalise. But I do think it emphasises my point rather nicely.

In reply to everyone who has said that it is their intention to look as femme as possible, I absolutely agree, hence why I said in my opening post that "we want to look like women". I know I do. But often, in fact most times, I don't go all the way, instead choosing to wear mostly male attire, with small signifiers that express my feminine side. For example, I have my nails long, and polished. So in one respect at least, I guess this puts me in the figurative "man-in-a-dress" group - a man who doesn't hide his masculinity, but in some small way expresses his femininity at the same time. I'm not saying that I, personally, have the courage to don a dress, or a skirt and walk proudly down the street, for I don't. Sometimes though I really want to. I want to feel free enough to be able to do this if I so choose, without fear, or rather with a much reduced sense of fear that a more widespread acceptance would undoubtedly bring. My friend who I talked about earlier isn't a bigot, in any way shape or form, it was the unusualness (if that is a word) of seeing something that she is aware happens but has never seen before that provoked her reaction. In short, society is getting used to seeing gay people. Can the same be said towards crossdressers? I think we, crossdressers, are a long way from the place I feel we would, as a group, like to be at within society. This is not to say however that we haven't come a long way already.

Please understand that I'm not attempting to talk for everyone here. I really hope I've managed to get my point across however, and that it is understood. If any of you are unsure as to what I mean, then please ask I will try to explain it more clearly. I know some of you will disagree with me, and in all honesty, I think that's great. Sometimes we need to realise that we should look at things differently, even if at first such a perspective seems to go against what our own instinct/belief tells us.

(Sorry its so long. Thank you for reading).

[sandra-leigh]

I'm not saying that I, personally, have the courage to don a dress, or a skirt and walk proudly down the street, for I don't. Sometimes though I really want to.

Guess I should get busy organizing a gathering... Hmmm, let's see... "The International Brotherhood of Skirts and Dresses" perhaps ? Or "Men in (Little) Black (Dresses)" ? :D

[Toyah]

Comparing that to baby clothes is presumptuous and not very respectful of those of us who are most comfortable "somewhere in the middle".[/quote]


I am not trying to be disrespectful I am trying to get people to actually think about what they are doing and peoples reaction to that. I really would not bother if nudists walked down the street but I know that there a hell of a lot of so called open minded people here who would scream thats its offensive. Why should someone who likes baby clothes be sneered at by CDs or someone who likes fetish wear you are applying standards to other that you say you dont want to be applied to yourself.
If you want to fight for freedom to dress as you like then you must accept any clothing or lack of clothing standard otherwise you become as bad as those that snigger at your methods of self expression

[sandra-leigh]

If you want to fight for freedom to dress as you like then you must accept any clothing or lack of clothing standard otherwise you become as bad as those that snigger at your methods of self expression

Your argument is a "slipperly slope fallacy". "If you allow a little bit of this then you have to go the whole way; if you don't want to go the whole way, then you shouldn't go even a little way!".

Like "If you allow women the right to vote, then they are going to want to run the country, and then a woman president/ prime minister with PMS might make crazy decisions. I'm not saying that women shouldn't be allowed to vote, I just want you to think about what you are doing."

"If you allow women to wear pants, then women will want to wear clothes that you can't tell the difference between men and women, and then they'll raise boys and girls to be exactly the same and we'll have an entire generation of sissy men. I'm not saying that women shouldn't be allowed to wear pants; I just want people to think about what they are doing."

[KimberlyS]

Jenni, there is a lot of talk about "Passing". But most will agree complete "Passing" for most is not possible.

My experience has been for me "Passing" is not needed to be out. From my first times out looking very much like a "Guy in a Dress", yes I really did, while I got some interesting looks, no one came with torches and pitch forks. I am glad at that point in my acceptance I was not on a forum that had all the talk about needing to "Pass".

I still do not "Pass" and that also is not my goal. My Goal is to present a decent feminine image, being it a female feminine or male feminine image that others can accept. And my second goal, especially if near areas where people may know me, a goal is to provide mask for my male self to not be outed thus protecting my family. I allow others to determine from there point of view if I am a male or female. But also I do not lie and I am not deceit full by trying to make others think I am a female. Because I am not I am a male and proud of it. And yes I like to wear feminine clothes at times to aline with my male feminine feelings.

Jenni I also agree with you very much so about acceptance and being seen. In general, people need to see to accept and believe. And what does the public see? They see the people in the news that are doing bad things. Yes there are more and more better things about CD/TG/TS's coming out in print and on television. But it takes a lot of good to wipe out a little bad.

Also look back in history. People that wanted things changed stood up and got counted. They held rallies and marches. You could see the people and you could count the people that wanted the change.

People say they can not stand up and be counted or known because they will out them selves. Well I both agree and disagree with this. Yes if I am around home and I would run into someone I know yes there could be some impact. So I take more care in disguising my male self, but not completely the fact that I am male. But if I am away from home some place where no one knows me I just go for a decent feminine image. IMHO what is the big deal if some one knows I am a guy in femme clothes. I figure it may be a small part, but I am providing the public with a good image of a guy wearing feminine clothes.

But to really gain acceptance IMHO we need some rallies at state capitals and in Washington. People need to see our numbers. They need to see we are not what they see in the news. We are people that they see and interact with every day. We work with them and we are their friends, family, and neighbors. We truly are just your average joe. But the real question is would enough people show up to even have a basketball game? But that is another thread.

[windycissy]

Since when is dressing up in women’s clothing a “cause”? It’s fun, it’s liberating, a fetish for some, a release for others, but crossdressing is hardly like civil rights or women’s liberation. I’m all for the truly transgendered in their fight for the right to live their lives as they see fit, but the last thing I want when I dress up and go out is to call attention to myself as a man in women’s clothing. I’m sure others will disagree, but that’s just me….

[gmss]

I think this thread has many interesting angles - but to stay on point as much as possible, here is my short reponse:


... My personal thoughts are that we might achieve tolerance, but probably never acceptance. ...

IMO, excellent point. Personally, I'm not convinced there will ever be acceptance; but if there is tolerance disguised as acceptance, that's good enough for me.

I think it's clear that the greater the visibility of a "cause", then the greater the chance of tolerance, on a grand scale. However, it doesn't mean that CDing is a "cause". It would certainly help the whole of society if it was. And perhaps it even is - for some. And that's fine.

For me, the pinnacle being a CD is being able to visually pass. That, despite my agreement with KimberlyS's point that passing for most of us is not possible.

After all, if you look good, you feel good. And it seems most people dress to feel good.

I'm with the people here who don't care what society thinks. The only reason I maintain cloak and dagger is because of the reaction of family and friends. However, just because you don't care what society thinks, does not mean that you don't show them some consideration. Just because you may conform most days to "societies expectations" does not mean that you are caving to it's will.

My final general thought and prediction is that it will take many more generations of teaching tolerance to the kids as they grow up before there is any chance of possible acceptance of the CD society. Even as a more general point: it's not society being tolerant of the CD community - it's about society being tolerant at all.

I'm doing my part. Dressing for me makes me much more tolerant and passive. In fact, I'm going to make an effort to do more "dress and drive"s because it definitely makes me a less aggressive driver; and that's good for everyone. :D

Just my 0.02 YMMV

[sandra-leigh]

Since when is dressing up in women?s clothing a ?cause?? It?s fun, it?s liberating, a fetish for some, a release for others, but crossdressing is hardly like civil rights or women?s liberation.

For women, being allowed (socially) to wear pants was distinctly a "women's liberation issue" -- women who wore pants used to get strong reactions, called names, denounced in church, shunned by society.

But when the situation gets turned around and men want to wear dresses or skirts, you say that the situation is "hardly the same". Why is that? Why was it an important movement over decades for women to wear what they wanted, but it's just unimportant fun when men want to wear what they want?

We can see a clue in your phrasing: in your list, you did not allow for people who cross-dress because it is important to their self-image to do so. Your list implicitly denies that men wearing what they want is important to any men.

You know, for some of us here, not being able to cross-dress isn't just akin to "Oh, Ultimate Fighting was banned? Oh, I guess I'll have to find something else to entertain me; lemme surf the channels a moment and see what catches my eye."

[Trisha]

yes i do pass i have been dressing for years im a truck driver and some truckstop waitresses do call me maam when im dressed as male so have i gone too far i dont know but im at the stage now where i need help i need and whant to go all the way but dont know where to go for help so i hope this helps
:D