The plight of the SO

[Ema1234 GG]

I wanted to post this as I want to have an opportunity to try and give the GG’s an opportunity to express their side of the story. I've found more and more that I get worked up reading many of the threads relating to SO's in the MTF forum. To me it seems that so many of the people on here are so quick to pin all the blame on the SO's. Now I'm not saying that everyone has this attitude, some of you give fantastic "balanced" responses trying to highlight how a situation may be seen from both the CD’s and the GG’s point of view.

HOWEVER, I seem to see a lot of threads and responses where it's all the SO's fault. I've got to admit that yes, sometimes the SO may have acted in a less than desirable way but why does it have to be all their fault. For the vast majority of us, we haven't asked for this to be part of our lives. We didn't actively choose to become involved in CDing. And yes it's true that we could walk away from the relationship/marriage just because of the CDing but in all honesty most of us are in far too deep for that to be a simple option. For us GG’s on here, I think the very fact that we are here on this site shows that we are the ones who trying to accept this part of our partner's personalities but it's not that easy.

I see so many of the CDer's talking about how we should just accept their CDing unconditionally because if we love them we should accept them for who they are. But don't they see that it's that fact that causes the problem in the first place? If we didn't love them it'd be easy to just walk away, but because we do love them we struggle on desperate to try and accept, but of course there's going to be a few backward steps down that road to acceptance. I'd very much like to see how well many of you would cope if the boot was on the other foot and you found out your partner was a FTM CDer! I very much doubt you would be the perfect SO immediately. Think about how you’d feel that you’re lovely woman all of a sudden wanted to act and dress like a man. Give it some serious thought for a while (but you must also be in the mind set that you are not a CD yourself, you’re just a bog standard everyday guy) and then perhaps it might help you understand how we’re feeling.

So I guess my point is that I sometimes wonder why I'm on this site. Have you never thought that it may be slightly hypocritical to talk about us accepting you all the time when you can't accept that an SO may have a difficult time accepting your CDing? Most of you have had years to come to terms with your CDing, yet you expect us to be able to accept in a much shorter space of time. Don't you often talk about how you were racked with guilt and confusion initially... Isn't it obvious that some of that is going to be the same for an SO?

I guess the real purpose of this thread was to try and highlight the plight of the SO. It’s not easy for us and it upsets me to see the number of “SO hate threads” that I’ve recently read.

Finally I’d like to finish and just say that this is not aimed at all CD’s on this site. Many of you are fantastic, but it just concerns me that a growing number seem to only be able to see things from the CD point of view.

[AllThingsPretty]

You bring up some really good points.

I for one have been guilty of being hypocritical with my wife about her accepting me as a CD. But I can say I have changed my opinion over time that I am the one who had thrown the proverbial monkey wrench into our relationship by coming out to her. I have since come to understand that I should be willing to listen to her concerns and try to understand her point of view instead of getting frustrated because she just didn't jump right on the CD band wagon from the instant I told her about myself.

I also believe that what your seeing here is the way the male mind really works. (if we want to admit it or not). I feel horrible about what I have put my wife through, But I feel good now about taking the right steps necessary to help her understand me better and as a result the communication between us has improved greatly.

[Kahlan51]

I agree with your points on acceptance it seems like most people want it one way. Many Cd's and men in general need to examine their own biases and realize that their level of unacceptance in any area is what I assume from what I read here is what their SO's are going through. Let's try exercising our inner woman and not just dress the talk. :2c:Kahlan

[karynspanties]

Raverbabe GG, you are absolutely correct. My wife is not bi. She does not want a sexual relationship with someone dressed as a woman. Once a SO finds out about our "hobby", it changes the way the see us. Sometimes they just can't get the image of us dressed as women out of their heads. As you said, how would we feel if the shoe was on the other foot. I know I would not be a happy camper! Great thread, it should open a few eyes and make a few of us think.

[Janailene]

I agree with your thread. It has to be VERY difficult.The risk of being isolated from friends and family because you're married to a CD must be as bad as it is for us.

I get VERY depressed sometimes due mainly to this issue. My wife and family are first, but I have been bitten by the CD thing since 5 years old. Have tried to stop many times.

[lynn27]

Nice post, I hope it generates a lot of serious thought and discussion. Guys can be very thoughless sometimes and the same can be said about some gurls...:sad: I know this thing we share can cloud our perceptions. We often mistake acknowledgement for acceptance, toleration for enjoyment, and participation for [well, you know]. We sometimes blissfully live with a SO who is in deep crisis and has nowhere to turn, ignoring the clearest signs of distress. She finally snaps and we cannot understand why she left.

As a life long CD'er that has been married more than once and has had my share of good and bad relationships, I can say that I did take advantage of a few relationships and a few SO's. Not intentionally or knowingly, but I my younger days I'd ignore my SO's feelings and assumed way too much.

Today I'm with a wonderful gal. She is working to understand me and this thing. Our relationship is far better than any I've known, not perfect but we do try to stay on the same page. We still have our bad days, but I try to be aware of her feelings and adjust my behaviour to suit her. She didn't ask for this, this is not how she'd chose to live her life. She has changed, just as I have for her. I love that she can still laughs at stuff like Cosmo Kramer's "manzer", "Tootsie" and "Klinger".

As for this site, I think you'll find that there are always new gurls coming in. Just as there are some gurls moving on. I see this site as a good tool. It is a good info exchange and really helps to "refine" us. Sometimes the new gurls come in a little coarse, a little compulsive and impulsive. We are all thrown together here and some posters' thoughts may be a little out there. Do NOT allow the words of some people to upset you. You can always hit the ignore button. :p

Hopefully, threads like this help ALL of us to understand and work with their SO's better.

Thanks for your wonderful post. Lynn

I wanted to post this as I want to have an opportunity to try and give the GG’s an opportunity to express their side of the story. I've found more and more that I get worked up reading many of the threads relating to SO's in the MTF forum. To me it seems that so many of the people on here are so quick to pin all the blame on the SO's. Now I'm not saying that everyone has this attitude, some of you give fantastic "balanced" responses trying to highlight how a situation may be seen from both the CD’s and the GG’s point of view.

HOWEVER, I seem to see a lot of threads and responses where it's all the SO's fault. I've got to admit that yes, sometimes the SO may have acted in a less than desirable way but why does it have to be all their fault. For the vast majority of us, we haven't asked for this to be part of our lives. We didn't actively choose to become involved in CDing. And yes it's true that we could walk away from the relationship/marriage just because of the CDing but in all honesty most of us are in far too deep for that to be a simple option. For us GG’s on here, I think the very fact that we are here on this site shows that we are the ones who trying to accept this part of our partner's personalities but it's not that easy.

I see so many of the CDer's talking about how we should just accept their CDing unconditionally because if we love them we should accept them for who they are. But don't they see that it's that fact that causes the problem in the first place? If we didn't love them it'd be easy to just walk away, but because we do love them we struggle on desperate to try and accept, but of course there's going to be a few backward steps down that road to acceptance. I'd very much like to see how well many of you would cope if the boot was on the other foot and you found out your partner was a FTM CDer! I very much doubt you would be the perfect SO immediately. Think about how you’d feel that you’re lovely woman all of a sudden wanted to act and dress like a man. Give it some serious thought for a while (but you must also be in the mind set that you are not a CD yourself, you’re just a bog standard everyday guy) and then perhaps it might help you understand how we’re feeling.

So I guess my point is that I sometimes wonder why I'm on this site. Have you never thought that it may be slightly hypocritical to talk about us accepting you all the time when you can't accept that an SO may have a difficult time accepting your CDing? Most of you have had years to come to terms with your CDing, yet you expect us to be able to accept in a much shorter space of time. Don't you often talk about how you were racked with guilt and confusion initially... Isn't it obvious that some of that is going to be the same for an SO?

I guess the real purpose of this thread was to try and highlight the plight of the SO. It’s not easy for us and it upsets me to see the number of “SO hate threads” that I’ve recently read.

Finally I’d like to finish and just say that this is not aimed at all CD’s on this site. Many of you are fantastic, but it just concerns me that a growing number seem to only be able to see things from the CD point of view.

[DonnaT]

HOWEVER, I seem to see a lot of threads and responses where it's all the SO's fault. I've got to admit that yes, sometimes the SO may have acted in a less than desirable way but why does it have to be all their fault. For the vast majority of us, we haven't asked for this to be part of our lives. We didn't actively choose to become involved in CDing.

Actually, neither did we. Choose that is. Many of us anyway. Many of us are trans and as such were born this way.

Sure, the SO can walk away, but we can't.

Some of us have tried stopping, to no avail.

So, as for fault. Nobody is at fault.

Some, both CD and SO are very selfish. All or nothing ultimatums are very selfish.

But for the most part, IMHO, a good number of us work out a sufficient compromise.

I think we would rather there be some understanding even if there is very little to no acceptance.

[Karren H]

I wouldn't blame any wife for not accepting a crossdresser as a husband... Especially if they didn't know about it going into the relationship.. I know I'd have a hard time accepting a wife that crossdressed.. So its not her fault I crossdress... It's my cross to bear and mine alone!!!

Karren

[LaFem]

Hey RaverbabeGG, if you have not already seen it, there is a current thread that is quite like yours, it is called "My former SO".

[Plain Jane GG]

Having found out about my SO's dressing in May, she told me about this site. It has helped me to understand the person that she is.
But our problem is that she also told me that she is gay. I read on here that so many of you are STR8, and I wish she/he was. I don't know if it is something that I could accept as a spouse. Now that I know that we are not going to be married, I am just trying to learn who she really is. If we are to continue as friends I have to understand everything about her. I am not sure if alot of CD's are gay. It this point knowing about the CD'ing just does not matter. She has been dressing around me and I see how happy she is. We even went shopping together. The CDing is not why we are divorcing.


Plain Jane

[JoAnnDallas]

I think this touches on some of the reasons behind why many of us do hide our CDing from the wife and family.

[GACountrygal]

I'd like to add some food for thought (gee I think thats my favorite phrase on this site :heehee:) if I may.

I think the reason so many find themselves bein given ultimatums or unacceptance from thier SO's has to do with the fact that CD is so outside the realm of "normalcy" (and I use that term losely since normal is such a broad term) It would be different if it was somethin like sports or fishin or poker with the boys. If falls WAY outside the "normal" gender roles. And as much as yall say screw society, society/culture DOES play a lot into peoples upbringing.

I had more to add but my mind just decided to take a vacation on me :rolleyes: so I'll add more if I remember later.

Just some food for thought!!!

and KUDOS raverbabe :hugs: great thread!!

Nic

[Marla S]

raverbabe, some very good points.

I have every understanding for your point of view.
That is because CDs and their SOs are sitting in the same boat IMO.

Personally I have (had) very similar struggles like you pointed out.
Most of us were raised to become a "normal" member of the society.
So we know what is expected, what is forbidden, what causes problems, what is liked and what is disliked. To bring this together with our other side is THE PROBLEM for ourselves also.

DonnaT already said it.

We havn't asked for that part of our life.
We didn't actively choose to become involved in CDing.

A difference is that you as a SO can walk away from it (maybe you even should sometimes), we CDs (or TG folks) can't. We have to live with it somehow.

I think I understand and have sympathy for the concers of SOs (nothing wrong with it), I have no sympathy for denegation and dispraise.
I am positive that there most always is a way to deal with Cding in a dignified way. I have seen several different approaches here on this froum. But BOTH have to be willing to.

[Tree GG]

Raver, you express the issue very well. It's easy to get defensive about many things when reading some of these posts. Some, not all.

I'd like to paraprase a quote from Helen Boyd's 1st book. (I do not maintain that she is the ultimate authority on TGness, but the lady has done an impressive amount of research and makes some very informed, common sense statements.) "Some people are just bad husbands/wives." When CDing comes in contact with one of these people, IMO, someone is going to get hurt every time. Since no one would want to admit they are a "bad partner", it's much easier to live with blaming the other person.

Those who post that they should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, where ever they want, with whom they want are absolutely right. That is their privilege as an adult in a somewhat free society. However, there is a price to be paid for that freedom and many times it is paid for with lack of successful, long-term intimate relationships (either romantic or friendly). It can't always be about the one in any relationship. At some point, you have to put yourself (your needs, your wants) 2nd so the other can be #1 for awhile. And vice versa.

If you look at the history of posts for most members, I believe you'll find a progression of understanding, tolerance and acceptance (either of themselves or their spouse). Those that keep growing, eventually find no need for a support group and leave the fold. Many never progress to a CD comfort zone in their "real" day-to-day lives and hang around forever with on-line forums being the "real" world for CDing issues. Others take a look and say "No flippin' way" and leave the sites and relationship immediately, never looking back. All are valid options, depending on your perspective.

I'm still here. I'm not 100% sure why, but I do know that I've met some very interesting, great people that I want to maintain contact with. Also, I'm still curious. Not sure about what, but I keep wondering what's happening in CDs.com-world. Perhaps an unhealthy obsession, perhaps a sense of community. Doesn't matter - when I receive no benefit of some kind for coming here, I'll stop.

But in the end, what is most important to me is what my CDer is wanting to do and how that will effect our life. What is said in this forum, from enlightening to ridiculous, is simply education of the possibilities. And a good number of valued hugs when the going gets tough. I refuse to internalize any perceived "blame" heaped on the SO by venting CDs or rejected husbands. As my husband will say whenever I mention an outlandish post, "I didn't do it!" :D And he didn't - neither did I. It makes the defensiveness easier to dismiss. :happy:

[lynn27]

Gay or str8 seems to be a different issue. accepting CD'ing or even TG is one thing, but living with a person that is sleeping with other people is something else completely. I don't know it I'd accept my SO sleeping with a male or female, why would I expect her to accept it from me.

While most CD'er are str8 or like to say they are [many are], there is a group that is Bi or gay. Sometimes fantacy, sometime reality. As some push themselves closer to looking and acting more and more like a women they want to experience being with a man. Sometimes it is a phase and once you act on it you may come home.

Some gurls that are TG don't see being with a male as gay, rather it is part of being who they are, a women. Because you say she called herself gay, my guess is, she may not be TG.

Whether your gurl is transgendered or gay, it is good she has you as a friend.


Having found out about my SO's dressing in May, she told me about this site. It has helped me to understand the person that she is.
But our problem is that she also told me that she is gay. I read on here that so many of you are STR8, and I wish she/he was. I don't know if it is something that I could accept as a spouse. Now that I know that we are not going to be married, I am just trying to learn who she really is. If we are to continue as friends I have to understand everything about her. I am not sure if alot of CD's are gay. It this point knowing about the CD'ing just does not matter. She has been dressing around me and I see how happy she is. We even went shopping together. The CDing is not why we are divorcing.


Plain Jane

[Ema1234 GG]

I haven't got a lot of time for a reply as I'm about to shoot off to work and won't get a chance to get on here properly until tomorrow but I wanted to add a quick reply in here.

First of all thanks for all the fantastic replies everyone, I was a little wary about posting this incase a got a lot of "hate" responses but it's really refreshing to see the responses that have been given.

I'd also like to say it is a very good point that's been brought up about the CD having no choice in the matter either and I agree with that.

And to DonnaT, when I said it wasn't the SO's fault I didn't mean that therefore it was the CD's fault. I was trying to highlight the fact that when we don't agree with everylittle thing that a CD may want to do, that we set rules and boundaries you don't agree with or when we do something you don't agree with it's not necessarily all our fault. We're struggling to come to terms with something that's very difficult for us to accept and as a result many of us have some blips along the way to acceptance.

And LaFem that is an excellent thread, I hadn't seen it. I've given in a quick scan through but I'll give it a proper read tomorrow when I've got to time to look through it properly.

[KimberlyS]

Raverbabe, I do agree with you to a point. Many do blame the SO's, but I caulk that up to the point that we are mostly CDers here so there is more of that point of view. I see the validity of the blame is always questionable as we never have the full story from both points of views.

IMO a lot of the blame should go to generally poor relationship skills and communication. These are not usually taught and most of us to not try to improve them on our own. And last time I checked there was not a manual for marriage. Then add most do not seem to get help from a professional when the relationship gets on the rocks. And if they do they often wait too late and one of the partners has already given up. Then add to that many go for help with the CDing to those that are not qualified. And all of the other issues are over looked.

Along the lines of communication there is also the spouse, CD or GG that will not open up to the other one. And interestingly it seems that the one that is trying to get the other open up and talk / communicate is fairly open minded and trying to communicatea, as in the case of the GG or in the case of the CD being open and not pushing the GG.

After that there are so many different situations that it is hard IMHO to push the blame to either side. And not just CDing issues, but all marriage / relationship issues. They are all inter-related.

But a couple of large issues I often see is:

A CDer wants acceptance from a spouse and others but they have yet to accept them self. The CDer is a moving target and they often seem to not allow the Spouse into their inner world so they can understand a bit better and help. It is hard for anyone to understand something that may change from day to day.

A CDer, say age 40 has been dealing with there CDing all their life and is either found out or coming to some type of self acceptance and wants to come out to their spouse. The CDer has had a life time of dealing with, and often seem to have the attitude that the Spouse should suddenly accept them for who they are. Get real. 40 years versus a few days, months, or even years is not fair. There is a lot of communication that needs to be done as for the CDing. Then add in any other issues there may be.

The CD's and SO's come here looking for help and support. There is a lot of information here. IMHO, often the CDers think they are or need to be like other CDers. When they really need to look within them self and see who they are and what they really want out of life. And the SO's look at what other CD's / TG's / TS's are and do and think that is who their CD spouse is. When they need to be talking with their CD to try and understand who they are and what they may want.

[Bonnie D]

Plain Jane,

I feel for you as I do for my SO. I recently came out to her after almost 28 years of marriage and two young adult children. First I told her that I am a crossdresser and then I told her I am gay. She then asked if I planned on becoming a woman. I told her no only because of my age. We will be separating soon and then probably divorcing later on. Since I can't leave presently for financial reasons we have been spending a lot of time talking. One of the questions was, "how can I be gay if I been with her all this time?" I replied that I was really bisexual but that I don't have any interest in having sex with any other woman, only men. I want to find a man to have a relationship with who will be accepting of my dressing and who I can be the 'woman' with. This is breaking my heart more than anyone can ever know but the stress for me had reached a boiling point and so I have to leave.
I will be keeping in constant contact with her though and she will be my best friend.

Raverbabe,

Sorry for detracting from your thread.

I agree with Karen. When and if I find a man to have a relationship with I don't want him to be a crossdresser. I want him to be all man in a gentlemanly way.

Bonnie

[Plain Jane GG]

Bonnie D
Your wife and I are in the same place. I have found alot of support group on the net. We also have to stay together because of having a business together.
The day that I caught her dressed, I had to come home from work to get something, and found her. Had to go back to work and act like everything was fine. I wonder if anyone noticed that I smoked 4 cig's for my dinner that day. I hoped beyond hope that he was STR8. If it was just a side to him that I did not know, I would have gladly been able to see him dressed. Just to have him with me. But I am very glad that she told me the truth.

I know we are getting off the track of this thread, but I feel that if your SO is a CD and they are in love with you and STR8, than this is just who they are. You should try to accept them. If you have a true love, don't let there be a secret between you.

[sparks]

Are you sure your not my wife? You sound just like her.

I applaud you. Good for you. The selfishnes that gets involved in cding can be astounding.

I try hard to please both of us and it really isn't easy. I've put my wife through alot of hard times and maybe she can learn to forgive in time. Yes I've gone through alot of things coping with this side of me and tried most of the time not to involve her. She wants nothing to do with it and I respect it no matter how hard. I've blundered and fallen but she has often picked me back up. I love her. I've been no angel and nearly lost her.

So I have my secret life which isn't much of one. I've barely any femme stuff and try to make do.

[Ashley Williams]

Hi everyone - what a great thread!

This is my first post outside of the welcoming introductions - and what a gem to add my penny-worth to!

The difficulties facing cross-dressers involved in a relationship are huge - and for the wives and partners equally so.

One of the problems is that many cross-dressers have things in common, but the way the urge is actually expressed or is sought to be expressed varies so much that almost every instance is to some extent individual.

In my case, when I met the person who was to become my wife I told her that cross-dressing had been a feature in my life - genuinely confident that 'the demon' had finally left me in peace after 30-or-so years.

Almost ten years on I am back in a situation I hoped never to revisit - wearing underwear in secret and loving it - but feeling awful that there is something unspoken and unexpressed between my wife and I when we had started off so openly.

On the whole I am a conformist, to a fault according to my wife. However, in this one area I cannot entirely conform and the range of pleasure I get from it is proportionate to it being so out of the character I generally present.

One of the issues, then, is how much is the cross-dressing a threat. I believed that one of the reasons I had stopped needing it was that the relationship was more complete than any other I had experienced. To admit that I have gone back to that need might imply that the strength of the relationship has lessened, when in truth I don't think that is so. However, another need is clearly re-asserting itself and it is a powerful threat to the equilibrium we have enjoyed for so long.

One of the issues with a long-standing relationship is that each partner takes from it what they want, or need, and the aspects that are not so great are either simply tolerated or dismissed with a 'blind eye'. Compulsive behaviour is by its nature, however, sufficiently outside the norm that it is difficult to deal with in either of these ways.

Both my wife and I are very sceptical about compulsive or overtly selfish behaviour. We always agree before going out who will drive - and it can literally be either of us on any given occasion. On the other hand, if we are going somewhere that I know she especially likes to relax with a drink, I will always drive.

We have a friend whose partner is very keen on golf - to the extent that it is quite destructive to them as a couple. We often talk about it amongst the four of us.

However, to share with them, let alone my wife, that I have a compulsion to wear women's underwear is in most respects in a different league altogether and should be recognised as such.

It is early days - both in terms of my membership of this forum and in my consideration of how I deal with this situation, so I will let you know how and when things develop.

At least my step-daughter has now left home and her protection is not such an important additional issue - but one thing is certain. Something will need to be done to avoid the damage of the secret eating away at me - but just how to broach the subject before I am 'discovered' needs careful consideration.

I have already had a 'near-miss', and one that speaks volumes about boundaries and perceptions. I bought some micro fibre knickers (panties) and took out the labels 'just in case.' They are so anonymous - without any lace frills or anything - that I actually found them particularly practical to wear when going to the gym.

When I accidentally left a pair in my gym bag and my wife found them, I told her that I had bought them from a web-site that sold nylon underwear for men. I was so relieved that this was accepted as an explanation that I no longer keep them hidden - but wear them regularly. However, only I know know completely what they are - a fact that makes them great to wear because I have that knowledge, but also acceptable because my wife doesn't. We have even had sex with me wearing them, my wife recognising that their 'slinky feel' is something that enhances things for me - just as her wearing sexy lingerie does. How differently she would feel if I left the label on and they were identifiably female is difficult to judge.

To take this just one step further and to present myself in the slip that I routinely wear under my male clothes, however, would be a huge matter. There is no room for doubt what a slip is. I also have male underwear that is very similar in its tactile feel and does not offend my wife in any way, but it does not give me the same buzz either!

So at one level it comes down to the fact that the straps of the slip are the things that I am conscious of during the day - and remind me that I am wearing it - and the one thing I cannot reveal to anyone else!

If I could also find female 'tank top' style slips I would have the best of both worlds. Perhaps.

This thread deserves to run and run (no pun intended.)

Love to all

Lesley

[Fab Karen]

I'd like to add some food for thought (gee I think thats my favorite phrase on this site :heehee:) if I may.

has to do with the fact that CD is so outside the realm of "normalcy" (and I use that term losely since normal is such a broad term) It would be different if it was somethin like sports or fishin or poker with the boys. If falls WAY outside the "normal" gender roles. And as much as yall say screw society, society/culture DOES play a lot into peoples upbringing.


Notice that you said gender ROLES. Trying to follow a script can sometimes lead to a life of great unhappiness.
As food for thought, I'd point out that it wasn't that long ago that a wife who didn't do the cooking & cleaning & taking care of children was "so outside the realm of normalcy." It wasn't that long ago a black man & a white woman getting married was outside the realm of normalcy. It wasn't so long ago a woman wearing pants was outside the realm of normalcy, etc.
Society/culture plays somewhat into people's upbringing, but as an adult they make choices as to how they decide to live their lives, based on what best feels right for them, and that may contradict completely what their upbringing programmed them to be.

[BarbaraTalbot]

I look at her acceptance and encouragement as a honeymoon period before a lot of the what ifs have crept in. I'm enjoying a lot of latitude and freedom and it feels good.

The only reason my wished for fantasy and my (at least for present) reality match up AT ALL is the happy coincidence that I, a closeted CD who wasn't sure what it all meant, happened to fall in love with and connive into marrying a cute girl who, like me does find the female form to be appealing or dare I say it, arousing.

If any of the opposites were true this would be awkward. For one example, If I had a soft spot for lumberjacks (I mean the Brawny dude ones not the Monty Python variety), It wouldnt be fun for her to put on plaid and pencil in some razor stubble, and swing a big double headed axe. In the next case, say she had always loved wearing those Sears Super-Dennis boy jeans that her evil stepmother bought her, we might have a problem. I don't even find GG sweatpants arousing, so how would I feel if she wanted to have a double mastectomy and have hair plugs added to her chest?

Thats really what we are asking. We want acceptance on our terms because of course whatever our gender identity is on the continuum, we cannot change that through willpower, neither can they on the orientation continuum. If it isnt interesting, it just isnt.

Having said that, when her early attempt to broach the subject of my dressing that she stumbled upon, I was devastated to hear that she would "have no problem with my dressing if that is what I wanted to do." In my immaturity I yearned for beyond acceptance to actual jaw dropping arousal. If she wasn't into it, I didn't want to even look at that part of me. What would be the point I thought.

From LONNNNG therapy-like talks we have had and lots more reading than posting here, and elsewhere I have found out a lot about Barbara.

She was formed early or was always there. It was non-sexual which seems odd given that I so eagerly wanted to include her in that way. She was shoved back in the closet probably just before puberty, and has had only the slightest peek at the world on really a couple dozen occasions in verses a total of 42 years developing my admittedly underdeveloped male persona.

Barbara is in essence a giggly teenager, reading tiger beat for make-up tips. she craves attention and acceptance. She wants to be noticed, she wants to be pretty,and needs constant assurance that she is.

I am rushing her maturation, because this feels too important to drop, and too fraught with interpersonal peril not to get it right.

[GACountrygal]

Notice that you said gender ROLES. Trying to follow a script can sometimes lead to a life of great unhappiness.
As food for thought, I'd point out that it wasn't that long ago that a wife who didn't do the cooking & cleaning & taking care of children was "so outside the realm of normalcy." It wasn't that long ago a black man & a white woman getting married was outside the realm of normalcy. It wasn't so long ago a woman wearing pants was outside the realm of normalcy, etc.
Society/culture plays somewhat into people's upbringing, but as an adult they make choices as to how they decide to live their lives, based on what best feels right for them, and that may contradict completely what their upbringing programmed them to be.

Yup I said ROLES. Thats what I meant.

You stated the progression of things about cooking cleaning, pants and so on..well they have changed. But one thing to remember is that generaly folks brought up before, lets just say Gen X (born 1980-2000) fall into the more "old fashioned" social roles. Whereas my generation, Generation X, has been brought up VERY differently (some ridiculous stuff but I wont go into that here) and seems to have a better "acceptance" rate of anything outside "normalcy" yanno what I'm sayin???

Hopefully thats clear enough for yall to understand. Its as best as I can put it right now!!

Nic

[LaFem]

I, like you raverbabe, have read many threads about how to deal with your SO about dressing up and acting like a woman, and the placing of blame. I have seen wonderful thoughts about honesty, openness, and understanding of the SO's feelings, and the mental (and sometimes physical) trauma this can result to both the GM and especially the GG involved.

I have also read posts that seem to be advice on how to be manipulative, things to do to get your way with your SO. I find this stuff, well, to say the least, kind of creepy, I think it shows the dark side of our gender direction. (Not about everyone, no generalization implied, intended or inferred.)

What I have said above is my opinion, my honest feelings, and of course my own interpretation of the words I read.

[kittypw GG]

IMO a lot of the blame should go to generally poor relationship skills and communication.

Along the lines of communication there is also the spouse, CD or GG that will not open up to the other one. And interestingly it seems that the one that is trying to get the other open up and talk / communicate is fairly open minded and trying to communicatea, as in the case of the GG or in the case of the CD being open and not pushing the GG.




I agree Kimberly, especially with the two comments I have picked out of your post.

Poor relationship skills are usually at the bottom of most of the striff. Poor communication covers the rest I think.

Sometimes my hubby accuses me of being un-accepting. On some levels this is sort of true. I really don't understand what crossdressing is to him we never have a decent conversation about it. I have told him that for some weird reason I am ok with the crossdressing being a fetish/ fantasy thing linked with sex. I don't feel comfortable with the idea that he might want to be a women. I don't want to live with a man who wants to be a women or even dress like one everyday. He leads me to believe that this is kind of what it is for him but then he says the other day that we don't have to always have sex when he dresses, we could just hang out. Ok so now I'm confused again.:straightface: I have very little interest in "hanging out" with my husband like two girlfriends because we aren't two girls. Because I feel this way it puts me in the catagory of unaccepting. Controlling my husbands desires. Well isn't he controlling me if he forces me to do something I am not comfortable with? Let me tell you I have swallowed my feelings plenty to accomodate his cd desires. I did it so that his feelings would not be hurt. Many wives of cd do this but don't get credit for it because we don't make a big deal about it, we do it for love. I don't think that most cd's really give or would be capable of giving what they are asking for in terms of acceptance.

Why can't their be satisfacton with what I am willing to give? I think that I am plenty accepting but being accepting doesn't mean that I have to adopt every aspect of something that I am definately not afflicted with nor do I understand. Maybe things could change for me if we could actually have a conversation about it without getting emotional and dramatic, (I hate dramma). The reason that we can't really talk about it leads me to believe that he doesn't know what it is to him either. This causes a lot of angst between us. I don't think my opinon will change so I would like to know who and what he is so that I can make an informed decision as to wether or not I can live the life he wants to live. But I don't know what that is to tell your the truth so I live with this weight hanging over my head, waiting for the bomb to fall. The bomb being that he wants to live like a girl or alter his body in a permanate way. This is not a very comfortable way to live. Nor does it make you want to really induldge the cd desires because you don't really know what it is you are supporting or showing acceptance for.

Great post Raverbabe, the feelings of the SO are so often not heard or put down but are just as valid as the CD. A little empathy for the SO would go a long way, we are not inside the cd's head and need some assurances as to what we are dealing with and it is not fair to accuse one of being unaccepting when most of the time the so doesn't even know what they are accpeting because poor communication. :hugs: Kitty

[TxKimberly]

I'll jump on the "I agree" wagon. I've said almost exactly the same thing myself here before. It takes most of us a life time to accept ourselves - it's unrealistic to expect a wife to just suddenly arrive at this same point. Also, as you stated, the very fact that you are posting here says loads. It says you care enough to be interested, you cared enough to try and learn, you cared enough to stick around long enough to do both of these things. What more can anyone possibly ask?
My hat (or wig - lol) goes off to ALL of the SO's here - ALL of you have made an effort and I hope your spouse appreciates what a huge thing this is.

Oh, as usual, Karen Hutton took the words outta my mouth with her post - that is exactly the way I feel and think about it.

[Raychel]

I have to commend you on your post, I agree 100% with everything you said. :thumbsup:

[Sheri 4242]

It takes most of us a life time to accept ourselves - it's unrealistic to expect a wife to just suddenly arrive at this same point.{Emphasis added.}

Kimberly,

I agree with your entire post!!! It shows intelligence and the all-too-rare ability (not for you, but definitely for a few) to utilize critical and analytical thinking skills so as to be able to put yourself in another's place and glean an understanding of their side of the proverbial coin!!! Well said, gf!!!


Poor relationship skills are usually at the bottom of most of the striff. Poor communication covers the rest I think.

Sometimes my hubby accuses me of being un-accepting. On some levels this is sort of true. I really don't understand what crossdressing is to him we never have a decent conversation about it. I have told him that for some weird reason I am ok with the crossdressing being a fetish/ fantasy thing linked with sex. I don't feel comfortable with the idea that he might want to be a women. I don't want to live with a man who wants to be a women or even dress like one everyday. He leads me to believe that this is kind of what it is for him but then he says the other day that we don't have to always have sex when he dresses, we could just hang out . . . I have very little interest in "hanging out" with my husband like two girlfriends because we aren't two girls. Because I feel this way it puts me in the catagory of unaccepting. Controlling my husbands desires. Well isn't he controlling me if he forces me to do something I am not comfortable with? Let me tell you I have swallowed my feelings plenty to accomodate his cd desires. I did it so that his feelings would not be hurt. Many wives of cd do this but don't get credit for it because we don't make a big deal about it, we do it for love. I don't think that most cd's really give or would be capable of giving what they are asking for in terms of acceptance.

IMHO, you are an exceptionally accepting GG SO!!! There is (a.) no tolerance, (b.) tolerance, (c.) acceptance, and (d.) encouragement. On any given day, from what I have read you say on here, you always give -- probably more than you get back in return as far as empathetic understanding for your needs. Most GG SO's that I am familiar with that would fall into (c.) and/or (d.) have needs, too -- and it is the wise CDer who can put his own life history aside, and at times outright selfishness, and meet his wife's needs, too!!! There have been far too many SO's that, all-in-all, are willing to move beyond (b.), save the fact that, giving an inch, their CDer is trying to take the proverbial mile - or more!!!

Every relationship takes work -- even the best of relationships have to move into that area after the "fairy tale" bubble of romance deflates. I know my wife isn't looking for me to be her girl friend -- her best friend, yes, but a gf, no. I also know that she needs "her man" at times -- and I try to pick up on those signals although I sometimes miss them. How much better would many a GG SO's relationship be with a CDer if the CDer was more atune to -- and understanding of -- those times when you want and/or need your guy?!!!?

As to comfort levels, let's be honest, many CDers, once their spouse or gf gets to (b.) charge forward like a bull in a china shop (my garndmother is comng out in me today with all these adages and proverbial sayings -- lol -- sorry)!!! Of course you're right when you mention communication!!! You say one thing, we hear something different -- there have been some very scholarly studies done on this phenomena (and I don't mean John Gray!)!!!

When my wife and I first discussed a renewal of our vows in Las Vegas, with me as the bride, she knew it was a dream of mine that she was trying to accommodate out of love. When we got within 24 hours of it, I knew something was wrong -- so I opened up a line of dialogue. She wasn't ready -- even though it was originally her idea. So, we waited!!! When it finally did happen, it was beautiful for boh of us, as I have described on here before. I am by no means perfect, but that's one time I listened and saw past her words into her heart -- and responded to her needs! The dividends I got in the long run were tremendous!!!

No, my wife isn't my gf -- she's my best friend -- and I try and treat her that way, which makes my CDing a two-way street doesn't it?!!! IMHO, that's the way it ought to be!!!!

[Ema1234 GG]

First of all sorry about my absence from the forums after I posted something like this. I've been away for the weekend and haven't had the opportunity to get online on this forum.

Secondly, I'd like to say thank you to everyone who's posted on here. I couldn't have hoped for a better response to the thread and I really appreciate the well thought out responses that have been given by so many of you.

I'd have to say that I've definately acheived everything I could have hoped for with this thread and that was to make people take a little step back and think about the SO's. In no way am I try to say we are never at fault, but at the same time we don't deserve the amount of blame we get occasionally on this forum.

The responses to this have really made me smile. Thanks everyone. :hugs:

[mellisa's wife]

[QUOTE=Tree GG;934746]
Those who post that they should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, where ever they want, with whom they want are absolutely right. That is their privilege as an adult in a somewhat free society. However, there is a price to be paid for that freedom and many times it is paid for with lack of successful, long-term intimate relationships (either romantic or friendly). It can't always be about the one in any relationship. At some point, you have to put yourself (your needs, your wants) 2nd so the other can be #1 for awhile. And vice versa.

Once again I agree 100% with Tree. Even "accepting and supportive" spouses often fee like a third wheel in the marriages....sometimes feeling that there is always time for the femme side but not always for the attention that the spouse seeks out.

There needs to be give and take.... not blame pointing.

Just :2c:

[Country girl]

I have to agree with most of the posts I've read on this thread. Well written thought provoking comments.

I commend Raverbabe on her excellent post. She has definately gotten a lot of people to do a lot of thinking which was her intention in the first place. Great job on your post and great job on some really well thought out answers! Shows that you gurls are really trying to see things from a different perspective! :gh: CG GG

[Sheri 4242]

I'd have to say that I've definately acheived everything I could have hoped for with this thread . . .

Raverbabe: your thread has been most interesting and vital!! You may have acheived all you could hope for, but I bet it will continue to generate replies.

Most of the responses you have received have seemed very heartfelt -- excellent "food for thought." The only thing that bothers me is the small minority that just don't seem to "get it," although they seem to think that they have the only true answers -- and that if you happen to disagree you must be less than honest. Such behavior is a snapshot of what is most likely either going through their minds, or what is actually happening (or has already happened) in their own relationships with their respective spouses. As has been said in several different ways, there has to be give and take, and open, honest communication. For the majority, IMO that is the the clear line of thought that your thread is generating. Selfishness is the root of so many problems!!! One who claims to always be right and/or who calls others liars b/c they have good relationships are the epitome of such an attitude -- and such only leads to relational defeat.


[QUOTE=Tree GG;934746]
Those who post that they should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, where ever they want, with whom they want are absolutely right. That is their privilege as an adult . . . (h)owever, there is a price to be paid for that freedom and many times it is paid for with lack of successful, long-term intimate relationships (either romantic or friendly).

Mellisa's wife GG is right on target: things can't always be about one in a relationship to the exclusion of the other partner. This is how the "other partner's" love bank gets dangerously depleted!!! IMHO, part of true love is knowing when to put yor own wants and/or needs aside and put the other's in first place!!! Oh -- wait a minute . . . that's the same as being the exact opposite of selfishness!!! I tried to exemplify this in my first post (a few above this post).

[Mitch23]

Same issue as you Lesley - I can wear my man-panties any time I like - slinky and sexy - and even in our love making. But wear almost identical woman-panties - a definite no-no. Where's the sense in that I ask myself - the only difference is the label!

Mitch

[Christine1826]

My SO only recently found out about my Crossdressing. She said she was angry, and felt that her femmeninity was threatened. I have never dressed in her presence, or anyone else's for that matter. I dont ask her to participate in any way. My dressing is for my own personal pleasure, I have been doing this for more than 35 years. I dont steal family time, or couple time. Why is it such a big deal? She imagines things that aren't happening, affairs, homosexual acts, etc. I just need the release form stress that this outlet gives me. Any thoughts from yo GG's would be appreciated

[Ema1234 GG]

I have been doing this for more than 35 years.


That there is your very answer. You have had 35 years to come to terms with your CDing and understand exactly what it means to you. And you expect her to understand and accept in a much shorter space of time?

She probably doesn't understand much about CDing apart from the stereotypes. That is that you want to become and woman full time and you're gay. That's certainly what I thought before I looked into it full time.

She needs time and space to understand and learn to accept. And if that means you answering hundreds of what you deem to be "stupid" questions from her then sometimes that's the way it has to be if you want her to understand. You might think there is no need to ask a particular question, but you already know the answer, she doesn't.

Like has been said in this thread, try and put yourself in her position. Imagine that you are just an average guy, you have no interest in CDing. Then imagine you're wife tells you she likes to dress as a guy and is a FTM CDer. Think how you'd react/feel and the questions you'd ask. I doubt you'd be able to accept immediately.

[Fab Karen]

The reason that we can't really talk about it leads me to believe that he doesn't know what it is to him either. This causes a lot of angst between us. I don't think my opinon will change so I would like to know who and what he is so that I can make an informed decision as to whether or not I can live the life he wants to live. But I don't know what that is to tell your the truth so I live with this weight hanging over my head, waiting for the bomb to fall. The bomb being that he wants to live like a girl or alter his body in a permanent way. This is not a very comfortable way to live. Nor does it make you want to really indulge the cd desires because you don't really know what it is you are supporting or showing acceptance for.

:hugs: Kitty
It's obvious he needs some therapy to figure it out, if he doesn't know. Until then you don't know if this is just a fear in your mind or you're aware of something he hasn't admitted to himself yet.




You stated the progression of things about cooking cleaning, pants and so on..well they have changed. But one thing to remember is that generaly folks brought up before, lets just say Gen X (born 1980-2000) fall into the more "old fashioned" social roles. Whereas my generation, Generation X, has been brought up VERY differently (some ridiculous stuff but I wont go into that here) and seems to have a better "acceptance" rate of anything outside "normalcy"

Nic

I was brought up well before Gen X. I remember how things were, and also how they were already beginning to change. It was the people of courage & integrity paving the way before your generation that made such things commonly accepted by the time you were growing up.
Your concept of generally is based on limited experience of how people in modern society are living. It might be somewhat true in your own backyard ( even then you may be assuming ), but overall things are quite different these days from your generalizing assumption.

[Dana]

Crossdressing aside ~ most martial problems are the same problems that most people have without crossdressing being a problem. Communication, understanding of self, understanding of others, common goals, intellecutall capability and understanding ~ to just name a few.

You want your wife to understand your needs? Understand and meet hers! Phyiscally, mentally, emotionally! Fullfill them to such an extent to where she knows that you're being a crossdresser ~ she knows she's not going to find another man that can nor will meet her emotional, mental, physical needs as a woman, as a person, as a human beings. The way to get to "forever after" is one day at a time. Make her your primary focus in life ~ the rest will take care of itself! Forget work, forget climbing up the food chain, forget becoming a CEO or a VP, forget the BS~

You make her the number one priortiy in your life 99% of each day ~ she won't give a damn if you wear sack cloth! You put her wants and needs before your own? Women just want to be wanted, needed, desired, appreciated ~ same things most CD's want!

Same thing as most Humans want!

[bgirl]

We must read different posts. I don,t see all the blame games going on. I don't see why anybody has to blame anybody else for their difficulties.
Are you perhaps refering to those persons whos marriage didn,t survive the fearful event called 'coming out'? I have empathy for all the pain suffered on both sides.
On the surface we all seem to be happy go lucky and threads about the fun stuff are more likely to be answered than threads about how much trouble we are having.
A couple times when I just needed someone to tell me everything would be ok, I got slamed by someone for feeling sorry for myself. They were seeing the anger, I was seeing the blues.

You are seeing the blame, I am seeing seeing the phoenix rising.

[shellycd]

In many ways, I think raverbabe bought up some good points.
I would like to share some of my situation and experience here. When my wife and I was engaged, I decided to tell her about me. She was not too happy about this. I tried and tried. But not much beyond accepting me wearing panties or some lingerie during sex plus a lot of arguments. At the end, I decided that it would be OK for me to have her not 100% accept my CD'ing. We have some discussions about this and have the compromise agreed. I would not try to force her to accept and will only do full CD when she is not around.
It had been 10 years now and it is so far OK. Every so often, she will asked me if I want to be a women and I would always say "NO". I said I want to be with her. Every so often, she would complain that I bought some new cloths and shoes because she haven't. I try to keep it to the miminum. Sometimes she complained about me wearing panties and sometimes she wants me to wear panties. It is became a part of our lives and part of our compromise and understanding between each other. It is OK for your SO not to be 100% acceptance.

[GACountrygal]

Your concept of generally is based on limited experience of how people in modern society are living.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[erin_elizabeth71]

well i am brand new on here but your thread was moving so i had to respond. i have a SO and i love her more than anything in this world. so much so that i stopped dressing and "purged" my closet of all but one or two things i have kept hidden away. she knew from day one that i was a CD in fact i was at one point going to go all the way to TS but at 6'6" tall i realized the looks i got as a CD would never really stop even after the many surgeries and also i had a very dear friend call me by my male name one day while i was 6 months into transition living full time as a woman and just starting HRT her exact words were "Eric I NEED you in my life and i don't know what i would do without you in it." i stopped HRT that day as i realized there was more at stake than my own personal needs and wants and desires. (now before the TG's and TS's start in on me I mean no disrespect to anyone this was the decision I MADE FOR ME not one that i think anyone should make for themselves this is just my story) but i made the choice that in this body form or any other i was still the same soul with the same feelings but to the rest of the world Eric would have gone and ERin would have come to life and there were stil those who needed eric so i decided being a CD would have to be enough.

well then i met my SO later and told her everything she said she was ok with it but then when things got really serious she said she couldn't deal that if we wanted to be together i had to let that be in the past and it had to stay there. well having read your post i have a better understanding of her point of view and i can only hope that oneday if and when she finds out that i still do dress only in complete private and by myself that she will be as understanding as i have tried to be for her. just as it is not something she is capable of dealing with quickly giving it up is not something i am capable of dealing with either so i can only hope that in the future we will not be under the stresses we are now and that we can find a way to deal with it together and that i won't lose her.

i know it seems kind of crappy to keep it hidden but at this time i don't see that i have a choice. i can only wish that at some point i can find some CD friends here in the twin cities area that i could go hang out with and dress up with so i didn't feel so alone and didn't feel so paranoind everytime i heard a noise in the house lol anyway i guess what i'm saying is as much as i see things from my own perspective i can feel your pain. here's wishing you the very best in life and a HUGE thank you for being open and honest and helping me understand her side of it cause here we just don't talk about it any more.:sad:

[LaFem]

Lordy Lordy! This is such an honest thread I can't even fault it!
Hey, Riverbabe, keep posting! You bring out the best in us men who dress and act like women. You are quite perceptive and open. Keep the discussion going, we need it.

[susan2067]

raverbabe

What a thoughtful post, and you are right to make the points that you do.

I think the great majority of Crossdressers are deeply concerned about the hurt they may do, or have done, to their SOs.

CDs and SOs probably have more in common than they realize. Being a CD is not usually something that we chose to be, in the same way that SOs haven't asked for this to be part of their lives either. And I can't really explain to my wife the why, and she doesn't understand either. People say that men's and women's brains are wired differently - maybe a CD's brain is wired different from both.

I can only speak from my own situation; I came out a few months ago. My SO recognizes that CDing happens, that I'm a CD and that in a way it's no big deal. BUT I feel certain that she would really prefer it if I didn't dress.

My SO and I are taking everything a step at a time. After all I've lived with this inside my head for all my life, but she has just had things turned upside down. I could never expect for her to accept everything unconditionally, but I do want to live the whole me and my hope is that with God's grace we will work things through together.

Thank you - and all SOs - for your commitment to us, and for trying to understand us.

Susan

[l8nitejenn]

I don't blame my SO at all, and she has been very supportive (after years of counselling). I went into my marriage of 14 years completely honest with her about my dressing, which I am sure for one reason or other many have not been able to. I cannot blame her for being frightened or worried, the real blame and source of my scorn is society in general, if not for the prejudice and violence against us, many more closets would be empty....it is this fear, guilt and hate which troubles my wife. We have come a long way, but I fear there is still a long way to go.

just my 2 cents worth,
:2c:
jenn

[Satrana]

Lets remember folks that divorce rates are hitting 50%. Bad relationships abound and people in general are becoming more selfish putting their needs ahead of their partners. It is hardly surprising then that there will be lots of threads here where SOs get blamed.

Even if crossdressing was not such a big taboo, there would still be plenty of sob stories here. But since cding is a big taboo, this often brings out uncomfortable, irrational prejudices that can irritate the CDer and lead to blame pointing.

Its a lose-lose situation for both parties and needs to be satisfactorily addressed or else it will eat away at the relationship until there is nothing left to hold it together.

[Ema1234 GG]

Lets remember folks that divorce rates are hitting 50%. Bad relationships abound and people in general are becoming more selfish putting their needs ahead of their partners. It is hardly surprising then that there will be lots of threads here where SOs get blamed.

Even if crossdressing was not such a big taboo, there would still be plenty of sob stories here. But since cding is a big taboo, this often brings out uncomfortable, irrational prejudices that can irritate the CDer and lead to blame pointing.



So are you trying to say that it's ok the blame the SO's for everything? I don't really get what point you are trying to make here.

[Carin's Wife GG]

in every relationship there are compromises. CDing is just one of them. I am sure all of you know that before *the stroke* I was gung ho on the TG stuff. Afterwards not so much. My brain literally had to do a relearning of all of this stuff (and other things too). It was very difficult for Carin, talk about confusion. I needed time. I needed compromises that I didn't need before. For some reason my stroke allowed me to speak my truth (even though talking was very difficult) and some of that truth at that time was hard to hear and listen. I came to understand that *I* cannot drive the force of CDing and I cannot convince myself that all that is TG is just fabulous.

Carin and I have had many discussions and therapy sesssions about this. We have the not so great habit of taking care of the other sometimes at the sacrifice of ourselves. As Carin puts it, it gets us into a real knot. We both want the other to be happy and fulfilled but how to do that while holding onto your own true self?

We have come to the realization that we have to communicate and very honestly. Even when the truth is hard for the other to hear. Truth for us at least is of vital importance. We like to think of each of us as holding up a strong table, all four legs being independant and at the same time needing one another.

The grandness of the TGing is coming back. Carin is a wonderful person that I am privileged to share my life with.

Thats the longest post I have done in forever!


Louise.:love::love::love::love:

[Kimberley]

I have seen this statement of the CD has had all these years to come to terms with it. I beg to differ. A lot of CD's, TG's and TS's havent come to terms with their gender identities, and most never will. I think it is an unfair assessment.

The CD that opens up to an SO is looking for support first and foremost. S/he is relying on the love of a relationship to help get over a hurdle that they KNOW has to be jumped and they cant do it alone. A lot of SO's fail to see this. Certainly some CD's will take advantage of the situation but most are saying "I need your help in dealing with this." Unfortunately the SO shuts down and quite understandably. They feel deceived and rightly so. They question sexuality and rightly so. The problem is still there and that solution is empathy.

If you cant put yourself in your partner's position there is a serious failing of communication first and foremost.

This leads to the second wave; education. Every GG on this forum is trying to learn and understand. That is why so many admire you. The problem is most SO's do not try; mine is no exception and she is a counsellor.

The cycle the CD is trying to break is of Guilt Shame and Fear. Again, they cannot do it alone and need support. It is up to the SO to decide if s/he is willing to give that. It is a tough, no, miserable choice to make but that choice can and often will determine the future direction of the relationship.

No it is not all on the SO but the SO has to be a partner in the relationship and as such, make a decision; go or stay. The question that needs to be answered is "What are the consequences of failure whether it is of support or withdrawl of support?"

This may not seem to be the response most would expect but I have always maintained that a relationship goes two ways and there has to be a balance. Finding it is a joint effort that requires both the CD and the SO to compromise. That takes communication and understanding and more than anything; love. Miss one and you miss all.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Carin's Wife GG]

the communication has to go both ways. What can be difficult are the emotions getting in the way thus creating a difficulty in that much used word communication.


Louise.

[Satrana]

So are you trying to say that it's ok the blame the SO's for everything? I don't really get what point you are trying to make here.

I am saying that in any forum of thousands of members where marital problems are discussed, you will get lots of people who will blame their SOs because their relationship has fallen apart. It is inevitable this will happen so I don't think it is worth getting defensive over. If this were a forum of thousands of women and a small number of men, do you think the situation would not be reversed? - namely lots of threads where women were blaming men for the breakup of their relationships. There is a lot of hurt and blaming is common.

As to what I think of blame itself, it is a worthless exercise. What is done is done. What really counts is the resolution, forgiveness and moving on.

[Billijo49504]

Just my thoughts, My wife is fantastic!!!! She get's clothes for me and I for her. If it's just her and I against the world, we might not win, but we would be together...BJ

[Ema1234 GG]

I am saying that in any forum of thousands of members where marital problems are discussed, you will get lots of people who will blame their SOs because their relationship has fallen apart. It is inevitable this will happen so I don't think it is worth getting defensive over.

You are pointing towards a very specific thing here that I did not in my original post. I did not aim this post specifically about marital problems.

And perhaps if you re read it I'm not getting defensive. I'm trying to point out that it's hard for us as well. I think often people who are involved in such a highly personal journey of self discovery often can become selfish and forget the effects this can have on those around them.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pin all the blame on the CD either, but a relationship is about both sides and I think sometimes CDing can take over a relationship and it's important sometimes to step back and think that there are two people in that relationship and perhaps give some thought to the effect of CDing on the SO.

[Marcie Sexton]

I was once told if the shoe fits then lace it up and wear it...

...So I will wear it...Thank goodness my wife and I have a strong and loving relationship, but it has not come with ease...There was a time she was not and would not accept me as Marcie...It was not her fault, after all I only had 15 years to drop the bomb on her...sure maybe she was a bit closed minded, but after all she went into our marriage with the expetations of having a man's, man...

The fault was mine for several reasons, my fear, my lack of faith in the love my wife had for me. Fear was and is to be expected, but one must have faithin the love of your SO, wife, gg, or how ever you want to address your partner...

With this all said, I readly accept the blame for all the grief we both experienced during my revelation and coming out...But I thank God for the loving woman he has seen fit to allow me to find...She like the others who accept their hubbies as the other woman are real KEEPERS...

Any time a marriage or relationship falls apart there is plenty of blame to go around, but both must be willing to accept their fair share...The important words to remember is "their share"...

[Tree GG]

I have seen this statement of the CD has had all these years to come to terms with it. I beg to differ. A lot of CD's, TG's and TS's havent come to terms with their gender identities, and most never will. I think it is an unfair assessment.

The CD that opens up to an SO is looking for support first and foremost.

In our case, this is not true. I was told because I found out "something" was going on. Even now, I ask him why he told me as he did not have to - the issue at hand was twelve miles from CDing. He says he just felt it was time and was tired of hiding, but more so he was planning on escalating the activities (from just putting on the clothes to going full-femme & out), and felt that was too much to be able to hide. When we had the fateful dinner where he clearly stated his intent, he remembers asking if I would be OK with that; I don't remember ever being asked. The phrase "...I'm telling you because it's going to cost alot of money so you'll find out anyway..." sticks in my mind. However, since that was the 1st stage of me coming out of my denial, I won't swear his recollection isn't more accurate.

So #1, he wasn't looking for someone to help him accept or understand himself. In my opinion, he was looking for an assistant to facilitate his planned activity. (Please understand I am not trying to paint him in a selfish, inconsiderate light. Had at any point I yelled "Stop" or "No", he would've - or at least paused - and I did not do either of those things.)

#2 He certainly did have almost 40 yrs to come to terms/understand this - he had been dressing since the age of 10 or 11 and ALL our 25 yrs or marriage. That he chose not to or was unable to, for whatever reason, is his responsibility alone. Your point that he was not self-aware enough to understand is well taken. However, why did it take observance of others' activities (searching the internet) to lead him to believe full-femme was possible? Why does it take the encouragement & approval of strangers to validate this CDing desire? If this is really transgenderedness (is that a word?) in his soul, why does he need outside validation or to conform to the CD community "norm" to express what was being expressed for so long without that community?



...It was not her fault, after all I only had 15 years to drop the bomb on her...sure maybe she was a bit closed minded, but after all she went into our marriage with the expetations of having a man's, man......

I take exception to saying GG SO's are looking for a "man's man". (Literally, doesn't that mean someone who is gay?) I understand the meaning you intended, but IMO, that is not accurate. If I had married some big, burly, hairy guy I would maybe agree. But my husband is not huge (only 5'9" or 10"), never was excessively hairy, although very muscular. The issue, as Erin illustrated so well, is that I met, came to know & love a person named D. Changing the clothes does not end D, however D would like it to. He wants Darlene to come into existance at the demise (even though temporarily) of D. It's not that I want a "man's man", it's that I don't want to lose the D I know & love. By making "him" expendable, I feel something I cherise is being berated or not properly respected. (I'm perfectly willing to admit that an opinion like that may require therapy)

[Mitch23]

Tree, I really value your comments. Never has a real girl, written with such honesty about what it feels like to be on the other end of our little 'hobby'. It has made me think about my own relationship, how much I value it, and my effect on the dear ones around me. I had not appreciated before just how it had cost my wife to get to where she is now and to be hanging in there

Love you loads

Mitch

[KandisTX]

why did it take observance of others' activities (searching the internet) to lead him to believe full-femme was possible? Why does it take the encouragement & approval of strangers to validate this CDing desire?

Tree GG and others,

This is a very poignent question you are asking. Why do so many of us CDs not just seek approval/encouragement from our Spouses or GFs? I think the main reason is that many of us are or were brought up to believe that "Men do these things, and Women do those things". Basically, the whole Men are macho and women are not kind of attitudes, which in some instances may be the case, but in the case of a CD, such as myself, we can still be the "Man" in the relationship, but there is just something more to us that makes up the whole being.

I am sure most members here spent many years of their lives trying to live up to the macho images they are/were TOLD that they HAD TO project to other people, only to finally realize later in life that which they truly were. We are crossdressers, there is no "cure" or "escape" from this part of us. It is who and what we are, and while some of us have loving and supportive SOs, sadly many others do not.

I applaud the ones that are there for us, and I hope that those "on the proverbial fence" will realize that we are still the same person, just with a much better wardrobe, and show the support so many of us crave.

Kandis:love:

[Carin's Wife GG]

Tree GG and others,

This is a very poignent question you are asking. Why do so many of us CDs not just seek approval/encouragement from our Spouses or GFs? I think the main reason is that many of us are or were brought up to believe that "Men do these things, and Women do those things". Basically, the whole Men are macho and women are not kind of attitudes, which in some instances may be the case, but in the case of a CD, such as myself, we can still be the "Man" in the relationship, but there is just something more to us that makes up the whole being.

I am sure most members here spent many years of their lives trying to live up to the macho images they are/were TOLD that they HAD TO project to other people, only to finally realize later in life that which they truly were. We are crossdressers, there is no "cure" or "escape" from this part of us. It is who and what we are, and while some of us have loving and supportive SOs, sadly many others do not.

I applaud the ones that are there for us, and I hope that those "on the proverbial fence" will realize that we are still the same person, just with a much better wardrobe, and show the support so many of us crave.

Kandis:love:

is in the shame of what it is they desire and even crave. When I have a bad day with the TG stuff I remember how difficult it has been for my Carin. It is not that eoither one of us have it harder, it is just a different ind of difficulty. Relationships are complex. TG make it even more challenging. It is my challenge to support Carin in accepting herself as it is her challenge to help me accept where I am at. To me that what love and committment means. I am reminded often that she has not changed, only her own awarenes of who she really is.



Louise.

[Holly]

...I am reminded often that she has not changed, only her own awarenes of who she really is...Louise, you have hit upon a fundamental truth. And I would be remiss if I did not say that this cuts BOTH ways. It's not our wives/SO's who have changed, it's their awareness as well.

[Country girl]

In our case, this is not true. I was told because I found out "something" was going on.
So #1, he wasn't looking for someone to help him accept or understand himself. In my opinion, he was looking for an assistant to facilitate his planned activity.

I couldn't agree with Tree more. Too often, IMO from things I've read, the only reason the CDer tells the SO/GF/spouse in the first place is because we "found something out" that just didn't fit. I know in my situation that was sure the case. I was ready to leave the relationship because I thought there was another woman, which, there was, it just turned out that the other woman was him. Once he told me the truth I embraced his CDing wholeheartedly and even enjoyed participatinig in the activities. It is sad though that there has to be that lie in the first place. And once it is disclosed, for whatever reason, the CDer needs to understand, that not all GG's are going to react like I did. They, the CDer have had a lifetime to come to terms with it and even then they frequently still struggle with it themselves. So how can you expect your wife/SO/GF to accept something of this magnatude in the blink of an eye? It isn't an easy thing for a lot of GG's to come to terms with. We weren't raised in a society that is so accepting or tolerant. That is up to us to change. :hugs: CG GG

[teresa jeen]

i think CG/GG has it right. weve had many years to get to know ourselves, why should we expect the people we love to come to except us as we are. the face value has a lot to do with it. they have come to see us in our male persona, when we unload the truth on them it becomes a delima most couldnt cope with. not just us who is telling the truth but a woman who isnt ready to deal with it. most women arent raised to think her biggest rival will be her husband.

[Dragster]

I still think it's fantastic that you GGs should put so much time and effort into posting on this forum, primarily for the benefit of us CDs. This thread has been particularly helpful for me to more fully appreciate my wife's point of view, even though it's still very negative. I still live in hope that one day I'll get her to join in, and realise that many of you who have embraced your SO's female persona with anything between tolerance and enthusiasm, really do get something out of it for yourselves, in addition to making your SO very happy.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Tony

[Sallee]

I couldn't agree more it is tough for SO's whenever theyfind out where it is the 1st date or after 25 yrs of marriage. Most GG's are programed to find men attractive and good company. They may find their dressed SO good company but as a girl friend it is difficult. It has been for mine and she has know for 30 yrs and she does not like to see me dressed and I can respect that..Sallee

[Khriss]

is it fair to hide a prediliction like crossdressing ,from Your wife ,or SO .. at any time ?? Likely not ! from responces here and elsewhere !!
Seems like a domestic personal issue , where making "generalizations" ...might be a mistake ...
and the "How would You like Your Wife as a man ? premis " ( or penis?) might be the
oldest (kickthedeadhorse) - parts are fallin' off that "nag" !!
If You look round , (FTM) there may be some who would prefer being the dominant partner while still retaining their GG status ?
I believe such postings tend to catagorize (members here) All in the same "Box"
While I'm interested in finding an understanding GG , being honest and up front with them...
I just realized I'm S*IT outaluck-roundhere... :( "K"

[JennaKnots]

For what it's worth, I can totally see my wife's side of things. In my case, we acted this out within the first month of our dating 11 years ago. The fact that she was accepting then and repulsed now has made me very angry. But, that notwithstanding, she feels how she feels, so I work on it with her, trying to get acceptance while trying to respect her boundries. We've been to therapy together a few times to talk about it. I am greatful for her willingness and try to have the same willingness to work things out.

[Ema1234 GG]

I believe such postings tend to catagorize (members here) All in the same "Box"
While I'm interested in finding an understanding GG , being honest and up front with them...
I just realized I'm S*IT outaluck-roundhere... :( "K"

Wow, you talk about us making generalisations and then you do exactly the same thing about all the GG's on here... :thumbsdn:

Oh and Khriss, you'll find most of the GG's on here already have partners. The very fact that we have partner's who CD is the reason most of us are here, not because we are looking.


And I'm sorry if there has been some misunderstanding here but I was never aiming this most at all CDers, just expressing my concern that at the time I had been reading a growing number of threads that seem to blame the SO's for everything. The whole point of this thread was not to point the blame at the CD, but to try and explain why an SO may do the things she does and to try and explain it from our point of view.

Of course I can't speak for all GG's, I can only talk about my own experiences, but many of the GG's on here have added their own thoughts and opinions anyway.

[Khriss]

and the most telling statement You've made is "You can't speak for all the GG's here" .. Hey ? I've no probs with you voicing your oppinion ..
relating your own personal problems with "crossdressing partners" but ...never assume that the majority of us here have'nt heard it before..or buy into your mindset...
and yes I've had women I loved ,,that could'nt handle me being "Khriss"...

and by the way .. I refered to "YOU"...( RAVER ) making generalizations !! not "we " or Us ..etc
stand up for such ignorance Yourself .. or you need to enlist help ??

[Ema1234 GG]

Khriss, there really is no need to attack me personally. :thumbsdn:

All I have done is simply make a post expressing the side of the GG, or sorry I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to do that?

You are the only one who's had a problem with this post and I think to attack me personally, when so many other people have commented on this is extremely, well, I won't lower myself to your level and start insulting you.

It's posts like this that make me question what I'm doing here and make me extremely glad that my partner is a sensitive and considerate person.

[Tee]

its tough. my SO swings from good days to bad days.

i understand that if the people around us finds out about my CDing, its pretty embarrassing for her.
they have other concerns as well. what if they see their SO being abused? verbally or emotionally?

is it fair for the SO to experience this? i have went through a lot of thoughts, and prefer to reduce/tone down my CDing. afterall i did went for treatment (pyschologist) before, and managed to succeed in stopping for 2 years.
the relapse have been most hurting to myself actually.

for CDers to expect their SO to accept them as who they are is a reasonable thing. but to blame SO for not accepting, i guess to most CDers, it comes from a position of self-confidence issue.
personally i love my SO very much, and i think its not fair for her to accept that my CDing.
i do hope she accepts.