Acceptance vs. Image All opinions acceptd.

[Lawren]

Can we really expect mainline society to accept us as CDs if we do not project an acceptable image? I think not.

Our POV is that we should be accepted no matter what we choose to wear. Yet we accuse them of being narrow-minded!

Let's face the facts here. Women's clothing is designed with very specific occasions in mind. i. e.: day wear, evening wear, special occasions, etc. It is designed to project a certain look that is appropriate to the occasion and/or the age of the women wearing it. Can we really expect people to accept us if we insist on wearing the sexiest ladies apparel we can find during broad daylight. Men have a reputation for having one track minds. SEX. Is it any wonder that when someone sees a man dressed in the sexiest ladies apparel he can find, complete with large breastforms, that they think he is a sexual deviant? (I used the sexy look as an example here. There is nothing wrong with it if it is in it's own time and place).

Come on guys. If we want to be accepted by our peers then shouldn't we try to project an acceptable image to them?

[loki_uk]

Or alternatively if you want to dress tartily go to a fetish club and you'll if anything probably look overdressed

C'mon its fun to dress up in the tartiest girliest clothes you can buy...sure you never see women walking down the street wearing pink frilly maids uniforms but you only have one life and if it feels fun to wear them then why not if the location is appropriate ;)

[suzi_cd]

Or alternatively if you want to dress tartily go to a fetish club and you'll if anything probably look overdressed

C'mon its fun to dress up in the tartiest girliest clothes you can buy...sure you never see women walking down the street wearing pink frilly maids uniforms but you only have one life and if it feels fun to wear them then why not if the location is appropriate ;)

How very true - I dress for fun, I dont dress because I think I'm a woman trapped in a mans body, I dont dress because I want to express my femine side, I dress for fun pure and simple.

Time and time again on this board we see people posting threads saying that what other CDers do is wrong.

This site isn't a sex site like so many CD sites seem to be but at the same time it needs to acknowledge that for some CDing is a fun/sex thing and not a way of life..

If it wants to be a puritanical and not accept that some of us do it for fun then please delete my account - because by being blinkered in such a way you are showing the same closed mind attitude that you complain non-CDers have.

suzi

xxx

[Kerry Owens]

Sigh....Lawren's point is out in public, where the folks who do not know or understand what crossdressing is who will see someone totally "tarted up" and they will only see a person inappropriately dressed.
Like it or not, people do make judgements from first appearences, and those reactions are going to stay a long time.
If you're out in public someone like Karren Hutton doesn't get a second glance, but someone dressed like "Madonna" onstage is going to definitely get reactions.
When I was younger, I had to learn what dresses to wear, when and just how formal events were different...and when casual was appropriate. I didn't grow up when white gloves were required, but hey, I knew they existed...the point is it isn't being puritanical but blending in like Karren does and there are others who do it too.
I wouldn't wear a formal to a rodeo, or a pair of jeans to a wedding, does that explain it better?

[Karren H]

Yeeh... Thanks Kerry Ownes GG.... ... Everything I wear out in public is appropriate for where ever I go.... and maybe a little to dressed up vs casual but NO ONE has ever said anything to me... Well except nice things that is!! lol

Karren

[Shelly Preston]

What get us a bad name is the people who set out to get noticed and not in a good way

The other problem is the media if someone commits a crime even if crossdressing is not involved It will get mentioned to creat juicy headlines

So its going to be a long difficult road aheas before we are accepted they way we wish for :2c:

[Lawren]

for some CDing is a fun/sex thing and not a way of life..

If it wants to be a puritanical and not accept that some of us do it for fun then please delete my account - because by being blinkered in such a way you are showing the same closed mind attitude that you complain non-CDers have.

suzi

xxx

Suzi.

I am not preaching a puritanical POV here. I am just trying to get people, including myself, to look at things from society's POV. Fun/sexy has it's place too.

The issue here is acceptance by mainline society. It's OK to push the envelope. That is how most changes come about but any sudden radical change is likely to be rejected.

[Kate Simmons]

I always dress how I feel is appropriate. I do not, however, limit my personality to try to fit in any certain mode of action. Like Popeye, I am's what I am's and that is the bottom line.;):happy:

[Marla S]

IMO there is a big, big difference if you are a closeted or club CD, or if you go regularly out in public or if you are out to friends and family.

A closeted CD can wear whatever feels good, a club CD (closed society) can wear what feels good and is appropriate for the club.

I agree with you on the "public" CDs. But those I know from this forum dress adequate.

Problem is, if you google for CDs you usually get "oversexed" or very stereotypical pics mostly by closeted CDs.
To find the appropriate outfit for the public is a matter of trial and error (I do a bit too much sometimes too).
We usually lack the time young girls have to experiment with their style or even try to rebel. The GGs did grow in there and it is an accepted developement.

We have to break rules in any case, but once you broke the rules there is no guide anymore, except the own desires and dreams. That might lead to "overdressing". To find norms outside the norms is tricky.

In general I agree. I see the stereotyp and/or "oversexed" look as one of the biggest burdens on our way to acceptance. Part of the problem is that almost anything men do outside the norms will be somehow linked to sex.

[Raychel]

I guess that is why I must just accept the fact that I willhave to stay at home. When I dress it is always in formal dresses, Sure would not fit in at the grocery store, or walking around at the mall.

[loki_uk]

Sigh....Lawren's point is out in public, where the folks who do not know or understand what crossdressing is who will see someone totally "tarted up" and they will only see a person inappropriately dressed.

Easy thing is to dress St Trinians style, everyone will just assume you're on your way to a stag do and not a tranny and you can still get away with being "tarted up"

[MarinaTwelve200]

You also have to consider your audience and the cultural stereotypes concerning CD guys. If we dress and act in a way that coincides with common stereoypes, we will be laughed at and ridiculed (or worse) as the stereotypical image is in our culture---not to mention re-enforce those attitudes in the minds of the ignorant.
A fair degree of "common sense" about what you wear and where you go is very important.

That is, if you want a fair degree of respect (or anynominity) Of course, you CAN do and go what and where you want, but then have no right to complain about the treatment you get for purposely "pushing people's buttons".

Dealing with CD is like dealing with racisim. A black person who talks and acts like everyone else is usually treated like everyone else (save perhaps at a KKK meeting---but he has sense enough to stay away from there), But a black person who lives up to the humorous or negative stereotype, will be looked down upon, at least initially, even by the most open minded. The black man , in that situation, has no right to complain about racisim if he purposefully presents himself as an inferior being to begin with.
---It was his choice "to be cool" or "to be 'black'" in that way and the price must be paid. CDing is the same way. We can change ourselves, easier than the whole society. The choice is either do what you need to do to avoid unwanted attention or do what you will and be strong enough and willing to suffer through the consequences. There is no middle ground here.

[CharleneCD]

I dont think the image problem is caused by anything the average CDer here does. To take Marla's point a bit further, it is what is found on certain sites on the net. Sex sites. These sites make any group look bad. Our problem is that most people can see that most women dont act or dress like the sex girls do. With CD's they dont have a regular group of us to look at, so they think we are all that way.

[Toyah]

Can we really expect mainline society to accept us as CDs if we do not project an acceptable image? I think not.

Our POV is that we should be accepted no matter what we choose to wear. Yet we accuse them of being narrow-minded!

Let's face the facts here. Women's clothing is designed with very specific occasions in mind. i. e.: day wear, evening wear, special occasions, etc. It is designed to project a certain look that is appropriate to the occasion and/or the age of the women wearing it. Can we really expect people to accept us if we insist on wearing the sexiest ladies apparel we can find during broad daylight. Men have a reputation for having one track minds. SEX. Is it any wonder that when someone sees a man dressed in the sexiest ladies apparel he can find, complete with large breastforms, that they think he is a sexual deviant? (I used the sexy look as an example here. There is nothing wrong with it if it is in it's own time and place).

Come on guys. If we want to be accepted by our peers then shouldn't we try to project an acceptable image to them?

You start of by by asking what society finds acceptable then imediatly start imposing conditions on what you find acceptable isnt that a sign of your restricted thinking? .It is really not on for a CD to say I want to do something that society does not like, then launch into a view of what they dont think is right
There is a great problem here and that is that you are trying to project what you feel is acceptable which is fine, but you forget to think what society would find acceptable which is guys as guys and girls as girls
The real problem is not what you wear but the fact you are wearing it in the first place. The simplest way to resolve this is to not present society with something they dont want to see, failing that well you are gonna have to take what flack comes your way.
The fact is we are not accepted but are tolerated, it could be argued that because you try so hard not to be noticed that when you are it could cause resentment and anger and create exactly the sort of problems you dont need. Make it a bit obvious that you are a CD and people will say, guy in dress fine whatever!!!!
Is it OK in your world to have a beard and dress? hairy ams and legs with a summer frock ? each to their own, must CDs always wear makeup and wear flats. Maybe it is only acceptable to wear skirts and not pants and to show cleavage well thats just guarrenteed to inflame a man.
Think about it, this is exactly the sort of mentality that produced the Burka and headscarf that I am sure you must recomend to all CDs as being apropriate and demure I may not be ordering mine today but I really think you should !!!

[LaFem]

I just want to briefly speak on the thought of men who dress and act like women being accepted by mainline society, as Lawren mentioned in her first sentence. I don't think that will ever happen. If you are good enough at passing, where people do not even notice you, and they have no idea you are a man dressed and acting like a woman, then of course this thought is not too important to you.

But if you don't make the grade, you will be stared at and maybe some people will point and laugh.

There are always gentle and sympathetic people who will politely not notice you at all.

As far as I can tell, men who dress and act like women don't have a movement, or political presence, or a lobbying group. I hope it stays that way. Mainline society could care less about men who dress and act like women, and from my point of view, and many of the "straight" people I have talked to about this, most of that mainline society, if they think about it at all, thinks we are some kind of sexual deviants, and they don't want us near their children.

I think any group attempt at being accepted by mainline society, or creating some kind of "acceptance movement", will backfire and do way more harm than good.

[Jenna Lynne]

As far as I can tell, men who dress and act like women don't have a movement, or political presence, or a lobbying group. I hope it stays that way. Mainline society could care less about men who dress and act like women, and from my point of view, and many of the "straight" people I have talked to about this, most of that mainline society, if they think about it at all, thinks we are some kind of sexual deviants, and they don't want us near their children.

I think any group attempt at being accepted by mainline society, or creating some kind of "acceptance movement", will backfire and do way more harm than good.
Ah sho'nuff does like sittin' in de back ob de bus an' eatin' dat watermelon! Lordy!

[chucks]

if that's what you really want it has to work on a subtle level. that is to say, if you want to be accepted then strut around as if the whole world accepts you, especially in the face of judgment. it is all about being bold gentle and kind.

when it does not matter to you if you are accepted by society, then you have all the acceptance you need.

[celtic.blue.eyes]

For all of you who think Lawren is putting limitations on us, think again. All she is suggesting is that conforming to some social conventions will help with social acceptance. And the best way to any kind of social acceptance is to have things in common with those you want to be accepted by. The last thing you want id social acceptance is you goal, is to show everyone how you are different from them.

Let's take the CD out of the equation. Now, would you dress and act like Pee Wee Herman and go to a Biker's bar? Good Luck! To sum it up, if you want acceptance, just follow the old adage "When in Rome, do as the Romans do":2c:

[Toyah]

For all of you who think Lawren is putting limitations on us, think again. All she is suggesting is that conforming to some social conventions will help with social acceptance. And the best way to any kind of social acceptance is to have things in common with those you want to be accepted by. The last thing you want id social acceptance is you goal, is to show everyone how you are different from them.

Let's take the CD out of the equation. Now, would you dress and act like Pee Wee Herman and go to a Biker's bar? Good Luck! To sum it up, if you want acceptance, just follow the old adage "When in Rome, do as the Romans do":2c:

I think you answered your own point Crossdressing does not conform to social convention so sugesting that we add more convention makes no sense. It could be argued is counter productive as then we cannot claim a seperate social group which is here sort of

[Marla S]

I think you answered your own point Crossdressing does not conform to social convention so sugesting that we add more convention makes no sense. It could be argued is counter productive as then we cannot claim a seperate social group which is here sort of
I agree with Sarah
We are not conform with one aspect of the dress code, but that doesn't mean we have to be not conform with all aspects of the dress codes.
At least where I live a very sexy or provocative look in public is not very accepted, not even for GGs.
This kind of look is mostly seen for street prostitution, which is allowed here in restricted areas.

[Lawren]

You start of by by asking what society finds acceptable then imediatly start imposing conditions on what you find acceptable isnt that a sign of your restricted thinking? .It is really not on for a CD to say I want to do something that society does not like, then launch into a view of what they dont think is right
There is a great problem here and that is that you are trying to project what you feel is acceptable which is fine, but you forget to think what society would find acceptable which is guys as guys and girls as girls
The real problem is not what you wear but the fact you are wearing it in the first place. The simplest way to resolve this is to not present society with something they dont want to see, failing that well you are gonna have to take what flack comes your way.
The fact is we are not accepted but are tolerated, it could be argued that because you try so hard not to be noticed that when you are it could cause resentment and anger and create exactly the sort of problems you dont need. Make it a bit obvious that you are a CD and people will say, guy in dress fine whatever!!!!
Is it OK in your world to have a beard and dress? hairy ams and legs with a summer frock ? each to their own, must CDs always wear makeup and wear flats. Maybe it is only acceptable to wear skirts and not pants and to show cleavage well thats just guarrenteed to inflame a man.
Think about it, this is exactly the sort of mentality that produced the Burka and headscarf that I am sure you must recomend to all CDs as being apropriate and demure I may not be ordering mine today but I really think you should !!!

You missed my point entirely. My point is that if you want to crossdress and go unnoticed, (be accepted), in mainstream society then you have to blend in by dressing appopriately for the occasion. Even GGs face scorn if they are not dressed for the occassion. How can we expect anything different? Don't dress like a lioness in a herd of zebras. Don't wear a formal evening gown to the mall or a bikini to a wedding.

Of course society wants men to be men and women to be women so if we are ever to change that attitude we should at least see the dilemma from both sides.

P.S. I did not say that Burkas, or any other clothing, is the only the only appropriate thing to wear.

[LaFem]

Hello Jenna Lynne! I certainly understand the humor of your reply and it gave me a good, hearty chuckle. However....

I don't really think that comparing the very serious and ongoing civil rights movement for racial tolerance and equality, is quite the same thing as the "rights" of men who dress up and act like women. I feel that these things are barely related, if at all, and the comparison is pretty much an insult to people of color, who still face terrible discrimination and hatred from our enlightened American populace.

Please bear with me and imagine for a minute, that there was a march on Washington D.C., with hundreds of men dressed up like women and acting like women, swishing around and demanding some kind of rights that have been denied them.

It would be a great laugh on the nightly news, but nothing more.

[trannie T]

I thought that Lawren had a valid point, if one dresses and behaves in a flamboyant manner they will be regarded in a different way from someone who dresses in an way fitting the situation.

[Lawren]

Too many devils here!

I thought I was playing devil's advocate by taking society's POV. :D

[Cheryl T]

Point well taken...if we dress like ****s at WalMart we all will be viewed as such.
If we ever expect society to "permit" us to express ourselves (notice I did not say accept), then we must present ourselves in a manner that is socially acceptable.
Just watch people at different venues and note those that stand out. Women in short skirts and heels at WalMart draw attention. Skimpy outfits or extreme makeup at the grocery store garners stares. If we dress appropriately for the place and time then whether we are "passable" or not will not matter. We may be read, but most will ignore us and go about their business without comment as we are not being "in your face" about it.
I've been out nearly 2 years now and everywhere I go I have had no bad experiences. I've heard a few comments made behind my back, but for the most part everyone goes about their business and let's me do the same. I attempt to be just another woman when I go out. I'm not trying to be the standard bearer for our cause as I think we do that best when we are just another face in the crowd and the world sees us a participants, not as threats.

Be yourself and others will only see that...not the fact that you are more or less...

[ElleCD]

Different motivations are relevant but if the issue is acceptance in the long term (and I think this is important) then an appoach to dressing that aims at doing so appropriately for the circumstances has to be the overriding aim. This can be very difficult as we have to learn what is appropriate by our own trial and error often and mistakes are made.

[Joy Carter]

Can we really expect mainline society to accept us as CDs if we do not project an acceptable image? I think not.

Our POV is that we should be accepted no matter what we choose to wear. Yet we accuse them of being narrow-minded!

Let's face the facts here. Women's clothing is designed with very specific occasions in mind. i. e.: day wear, evening wear, special occasions, etc. It is designed to project a certain look that is appropriate to the occasion and/or the age of the women wearing it. Can we really expect people to accept us if we insist on wearing the sexiest ladies apparel we can find during broad daylight. Men have a reputation for having one track minds. SEX. Is it any wonder that when someone sees a man dressed in the sexiest ladies apparel he can find, complete with large breastforms, that they think he is a sexual deviant? (I used the sexy look as an example here. There is nothing wrong with it if it is in it's own time and place).

Come on guys. If we want to be accepted by our peers then shouldn't we try to project an acceptable image to them?

Ditto's Ditto's and more Ditto's !

[amberchgo]

When I dress, I try to "fit in." I'm not 20 anymore so I dont try to dress that way. To me, what is fun is a nice skirt, nice blouse and looking my age. That may sound boring to some, but its fun to me.

I was out last night with the dog. We walked for block and blocks. I had the new wedge shoes on (very comfy) and passed a lot of other folks, cars and even a couple of dogs. To me, that was a perfect time out of the house!

Amber

[sarah378619]

I have posted threads about what if cross gender expression was excepted( skirts..ect). Women(GG's) did not always have the political/social/and clothing freedom they have today. GG activists and pioneers made great personel sacrafices to achive what is taken as a given now. Until one of us stands up, society will have no reason to consider being more temperate or accepting. We all feel the way we feel there is no right or wrong. Some of us do it for pleaure and some of us, like me satisfy an inner peace for ourselves.I enjoy the sensuality but I also like that part of me which is femanine.
Sarah

[Jenna Lynne]

I don't really think that comparing the very serious and ongoing civil rights movement for racial tolerance and equality, is quite the same thing as the "rights" of men who dress up and act like women. I feel that these things are barely related, if at all, and the comparison is pretty much an insult to people of color, who still face terrible discrimination and hatred from our enlightened American populace.

Please bear with me and imagine for a minute, that there was a march on Washington D.C., with hundreds of men dressed up like women and acting like women, swishing around and demanding some kind of rights that have been denied them.

It would be a great laugh on the nightly news, but nothing more.
Sorry, but you're completely, utterly, horribly, nastily wrong.

The fact that we would be laughed at means that we're not entitled to ASK to be treated with dignity and respect? Is that really what you meant to say? Because it's what you said!

If you think transgendered people don't suffer discrimination, you might want to read up on the case of Gwen Araujo, who was murdered a couple of years ago by some young men who discovered she was biologically male. It was a lynching, pure and simple -- and the men's lawyers had the stones to claim that the men should be acquitted because they acted under emotional duress due to "gay panic"! In other words, the lawyers tried to say it was Gwen's fault!

If you don't support respect and dignity for transgendered people, please stop posting on this website! If I use the language I want to use, the moderators will censor it, so I won't. I'll leave it up to your imagination.

***Jenna***

[AmberTG]

A very interesting thread! My question is, and I don't think this is too far off topic, why would it be a difficulty for someone to figure out what's appropriate to wear in public to various places and events? We've all been to these types of places and events in the past, whatever they might be, and knowing what's appropriate to wear is as easy as observing what other people are wearing. It comes down to the question of "how do you want to present yourself in public?"
If you want to look like a **** at the mall, don't be supprised at the resulting attention you get. The GGs get scorn, you will too, except it'll be worse for you. If you go to the fetish club looking like a ****, it should be a fun night.
My point is, wearing something that's normal for the time and place will make your life easier.
I may be wrong here but I think the transgender issue is starting to become a slight bit more acceptable, but CDing is still looked at as a "sexual deviance" and a "perversion" by society in general and inappropriate clothing and behavior tends to reinforce that stereotype.

[Mitch23]

agree with you totally Amber - I dress according to where I'm going and who I'm meeting. Love to blend and would hate to be the object of ridicule,

Mitch

[Teresa Amina]

the transgender issue is starting to become a slight bit more acceptable, but CDing is still looked at as a "sexual deviance" and a "perversion"

And this seems to be the big divide in opinion in this forum- those for whom crossdressing is a sort of sex game vs those who are more like transgender and just expressing a deeper sense of self. If you like to dress like a trashy **** to "escape" or find some sort of stress relief please do it behind closed doors. Those of us who go out to blend in and just Be don't need to be lumped in with you in the public perception. I dress conservatively and have had no unpleasant experiences out there, but if you get in peoples faces with the blatantly sexual you shouldn't be offended yourself if you're rejected. Those people have rights too

[Michelle (Oz)]

But if you don't make the grade, you will be stared at and maybe some people will point and laugh.

There are always gentle and sympathetic people who will politely not notice you at all.

As far as I can tell, men who dress and act like women don't have a movement, or political presence, or a lobbying group. I hope it stays that way. Mainline society could care less about men who dress and act like women, and from my point of view, and many of the "straight" people I have talked to about this, most of that mainline society, if they think about it at all, thinks we are some kind of sexual deviants, and they don't want us near their children.

Each of us has our reasons for dressing and what we want to achieve. The premise of the thread is that dressing in an "inappropriate" way feeds the stereotypical attitude of the public that dressers are sexual deviants. I want to comment on the post quoted above which would discourage CDers from dressing in public.

I don't make the grade when it comes to passing and I speak with a male voice but I do give thought to how I look relative to my age and where I am going dressed. The more I go out the more I am in absolute awe of the attitude of the public. The level of acceptance and indeed positive response is quite amazing. I have never been laughed at. I am treated courteously.

Interestingly, I have made many good friends out dressed over the last 12 months.

I don't think that I would have received the same reaction if I did not aim to address appropriately. Of course, this has to be what you want to achieve.

Michelle (Oz)

[JoAnnDallas]

I too dress to blend in. I am almost 60 and can not see me trying to wear what a 20 ro 30 year old would wear. But at the same time, I do try to be dressy. As you can see from my avatar, it is stylish but casual at the same time something a uptown 50/60 year old woman may wear.

[Jodi]

On Saturday evening in Canton, my friends Sheila, Laura and I were discussing the appropriateness of dress and behavior for occasions. Before we left for the restaurant, we checked each other over to be sure that nothing was over the top. BTW, there was a forth girl that wanted very badly to join us for dinner, but we declined. She was not happy. It has to do with her mode of dress, attitude and manner of presentation. She would have stood out like a sore thumb in the restaurant. She's 63, dresses like a 20's girl, is loud, and eats like a hungry truck driver when out. Her overall manners, even for a guy, are totally unacceptable. We've tried to tell her this. She doesn't want to hear it. Yet, she can't understand why noone wants her company for a dinner out. She was quite upset and generally calls Laura and takes it out on her. Laura is a very kind, gentle person who does not like to offend others. This girl will not call Sheila or me. She knows she will get told up front what is what.

On Saturday, we had a nice, quiet dinner with total acceptance. We have no clue whether they read us or not. Frankly, we did not care.

I think the point has been made above. If you dress and act to gain unnecessary attention, you will get it. If you dress and act the part, noone will notice nor care.

Jodi

[Slip Affinity]

My dressing is confined to the home only and even then, I don't overdress or try to look "overly sexy". Couldn't pull it off at my age anyway.