The Real Heroes Of The Revolution Do Not Pass But Are Read [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Lovely Rita

07-24-2007, 12:32 AM

SatinDoll00

07-24-2007, 12:35 AM

Thanks so much sweetie...I really needed that!!

Morgan

Kate Simmons

07-24-2007, 05:49 AM

I thought the same thing when I read Morgan's adventure Rita. It's funny, I've never claimed to be a woman but some automatically assume I am. I do not attempt to walk or talk a certain way and don't really care if I am "clocked" or not. In fact, I WANT them to know I'm a guy as I see nothing wrong with a guy wearing clothes designed for women. The rest for me is just glitter (the makeup, wigs, etc,) simply because I like looking nice. Actually I prefer a "tomboy" look and dress that way a lot. In that case, some folks assume I'm a butch lesbian or something which doesn't matter really, let them think what they want. I'm my own person in any case and don't claim to be anything else really.
I guess what I'm saying is that "passing" is not a big issue for me and never was. I have a lot of respect for the gals who know they do not pass but have the courage to go out anyway and enjoy being themselves. As you say, they are the real heros (or heroines).:happy:

Sherlyn

07-24-2007, 06:18 AM

Wendy me

07-24-2007, 06:29 AM

hi my input here what you said is so true Rita....change sucks in any way ... and why is that??? well we get comfy in what we do ... and to be the one or ones to stand up is hard to do ....

as with every one we all want the same thing .... i want acceptance not only from family and Friends ....but from every one ... we are a closed minded people we see something that is out of the norm and we yell freak ... with the way the world is changing and moving ..... it blows my mind why some thing as silly as clothing and a little make up freak out people ...

the more we see something the more it seam's to fit the norm ....outher groups of people have came out and took their right full place among the rest of the world and although it was not easy they have become just like any other's out there ..... not that they weren't before .... just in the eye....

now us lol ..... here we are we are OK .... we are as "NORMAL" as the rest of them ..... we are from all walks of live .... from near to far... yet we hide because we are afraid to be known .... well done to all that go out and pass without ever getting clocked ... for the non passing of us that still go out you all are truly bringing us out to the world and putting us in the eye.......

who knows the more we do get out and the more people see us the closer we become to a day when no one bats a eye and we fit in were ever we go.....

melissacd

07-24-2007, 06:34 AM

Rita,

Bravo, this is a great thread! I have thought a great deal about this myself. I have seen many photos of cross dressers who don't pass (me included) and yet who make an effort to look their best and frankly they do a wonderful job of it. I see nothing wrong at all with a man who looks his feminine best. In my opinion, breast forms are the only part of what we do that I would consider not being a man dressed in feminine clothes. There is no reason that a man cannot do any of the rest (long hair styled, makeup, nails, high heels, hosiery...all the feminine clothes) and not be said to be anything other than a man dressing his feminine best.

It does take a lot of courage to do this and of course getting as close to passing cuts way down on the confrontation level and is part of the reason that many of us do not want to get clocked, however, like Salandra I do not hide my voice and I try my best to just act like me on dressed better. I act friendly and pleasant and as I would like to be treated by others.

If enough of us get out there and get noticed it will start to become as accepted as anything else and the world will become a truly wonderful place indeed.

Thanks to all of you for being a part of our revolution :)

Huggs
Melissa

MsJanessa

07-24-2007, 06:47 AM

ditto--what they say

Marla S

07-24-2007, 07:05 AM

ditto
Great thread Rita.

One add.

It doesn't matter if you pass, but it does matter if you are prepared not to pass.

Nobody will pass in any situation, every snide comment will hurt, but if you are aware of it you are less vulnerable and it is more easy to deal with it.

@SatinDoll: Don’t let it get you down.
You have my respect.

maryjanecapri

07-24-2007, 07:09 AM

I am so glad someone has come out and said these things. I have been wearing women's clothing for a long time now and I have never concerned myself with passing. I am one of the "guy in a dress" CDs.

When people first see me they are very taken back. But, as with anything, constant exposure puts them at ease and they stop looking at me like I'm crazy. They see I am just a regular man wearing regular women's clothing.

I have nothing to hide. Are there times when I think it would be nice to look 100% like a woman? Sure. But I know that will not happen. And I've seen the stares and heard the whispers that follow men trying (unsuccessfully) to pass. It makes me sad on two levels: 1) that people are so shallow they don't see someone trying to just be honest to themselves and 2) i feel for the poor person unable to pass and know what that person is going through.

I will continue, and always will continue, to wear my dresses and skirts sans wigs and makeup. I just want to be me. I just want to be true to myself and be comfortable in who I am. But I know who I am is not a woman...so I've no desire to try to come across as a woman.

Bravo to you all of you trying or not trying to pass. Just being in the eye of the public on a daily basis makes it more and more possible that some day we will be able to walk among the public and not be ostracized.

Lovely Rita

07-24-2007, 07:56 AM

Interesting ...it kinda makes like girls like me are worthless because we dont attract attention.....I dont go out of my way to prove a point by going shopping ...My life as Sher consists of meeting new friends and creating a social life for this part of me...I dont make any efforts to walk the walk or talk the talk ...matter of fact I speak in quite a male voice and I dont try to fake a female ...just because I can pass alot does not mean Im not out there being Who I Am ...and also every person that at first becomes my friend I let them know Im male if they haven't figured it out already ...so how can you say just because we can get by we make no difference...Ive had a person once he found out about me ..go out of his way to let everyone know Im a male dressed as a female....and Im dam proud of it ...sooooo Rita stop and think about what you are saying and perhaps even give us a little insight about what you have done

Sherlyn, If you feel worthless because I am encouraging our sisters who are taking courageous steps and facing ridicule and being chided by society at large then I think that you should also really stop and think about what you just wrote.

I personally do not see any one as worthless, but I still maintain that those of our community who are read will make the greatest impact.

Please do not try to turn something very loving, supportive and positive towards those in our community who do not pass so readily into something negative. Don't make this about you.

I was applauding those who have ventured forth enfemme and suffered ridicule at the hands of jerks.

I really do not see what it has to do with you. Everyone has their part to play no matter how big or how small.

What difference anyone makes is not for me to say but I still believe as always that those who face hardship and persecution because of being read and still move forward are the true heroes.

That will be the day when I have to answer to you or give you an account as to what I am doing.

I can tell you this though, I also speak in my own voice and I also have let people know that I am a crossdresser and hopefully in some little way I too am making a difference.

Emily Ann Brown

07-24-2007, 08:47 AM

Lovely thread Rita. AMEN.

Sher, as another gal that seems to pass effortlessly I don't feel anything but proud of sisters that are easily read but keep doing it. It ain't about us. We can't help it if we were born with androgenous features that allow us to blend as either sex. We are who we are, and they are who they are. Three cheers that they are doing their thing and we get the ride on their coat tails towards acceptance.

What can we do? Open our mouths when the time arises and announce we are CDs and TGs as well and proud of that fact.

Emily Ann

Violetgray

07-24-2007, 09:39 AM

Satindoll, same thing happened to me my first time! That which doesn't kill you, motivates you to practice makeup!

Sherlyn look at it this way.. let's say someone who always wanted to play basketball, gets into an accident and loses their leg. They get physical therapy, get a prosthetic leg, and get back out there on the court. They have shown courage and determination by carrying on in spite of a disadvantage.

This however, doesn't mean that Michael Jordan is worthless.

I don't think she meant any offense dear, praising the nonpassable for their courage doesn't imply that the passable are worthless.

Actually now that you mention it, passing but letting them know often helps too, as once I let people know its often an excellent conversation starter ( keep in mind I like to travel in circles of weird, interesting, and open-minded people!)

People who are nonpassable demonstrate courage by going out.

People who are passable demonstrate courage by being able to pass, but choosing to let people know anyway.

Brianna Lovely

07-24-2007, 10:04 AM

Just my opinion, but maybe one person in ten, could pass. So what?
This does not change who we are, how we feel inside or how we see the world around us.

I suppose there are some gurls, who think that only "pretty" people should be out in public. Well then, if you think that way, the next time you're out shopping, go up to the first "not so pretty" GG, and tell her to go home and hide in the house, because you think that only "pretty" people should be out in public.

Sorry for that, but I'm a little upset.

I'm out every day and yes I'm wearing a skirt. So, either people are courteous and don't say anything, or, because I'm out dressed semi-fem, every day, that people get used to it.

Whatever, I'm going to be the person that I feel I am.

Karren H

07-24-2007, 10:07 AM

Guess failing is going to be the in thing to do? Hehe. Rita, you always have the best threads... And if the truth be known... Sherlyn is really a GG posing as a crossdresser... :). IMHO

Karren

TV Wannabe

07-24-2007, 10:47 AM

The Revolution moves foward.

tracigirl_tv

07-24-2007, 11:08 AM

....
I don't think she meant any offense dear, praising the nonpassable for their courage doesn't imply that the passable are worthless.

.....

People who are nonpassable demonstrate courage by going out.

People who are passable demonstrate courage by being able to pass, but choosing to let people know anyway.

Violet, well said, and well mediated. What size referee's shirt would you like? :)

MsJanessa

07-24-2007, 11:22 AM

JoAnnDallas

07-24-2007, 11:33 AM

So far I like Emily and others seem to pass while out en fem, but we all know that sooner or later someone WILL read us. It might be as easy as a GG reading me then just smiling at me or what happen to Satin Doll. I am glad that Satin Doll did not let it get her down or let it keep her from going out and enjoying herself.

susie evans

07-24-2007, 11:36 AM

RITA another great thread like a lot of girls here i have been venturing out for a long time and in the begining i was notice quite a bit but now hardly ever get a look , the race we run is long and has a lot of bumps in it the thing that sets us apart is we can steer the course of life and in the end we will win the race

:love: susie

gennee

07-24-2007, 12:15 PM

Great post, Rita. I have mixed results as far as passing goes. It's not important to me. It's just being out there breaking down the boundaries that is important.

SatinDoll, keep on going. :hugs:

Gennee

chucks

07-24-2007, 12:19 PM

when it becomes The Revolution you've already lost before it's begun. it could be much simpler.

then nobody is right or wrong.

sterling12

07-24-2007, 04:03 PM

Well, I can't imagine anybody going out of their way to look more "guy-like," when they go out en femme. But, the reality is that most of us (99%?) will not pass 100% of the time.

Even for you Gals who think that you are absolutely undetectable, "Don't bet the farm on it!" If the look doesn't get you clocked, it will be some small mannerism, or body language, or whatever.

Rita has done Forum Members a service, she points us back toward reality. And, she makes us consider our situation in a very practical way. I sense that whether we like it or not, NOW is the time, and each of us are going to have to be brave, and "pick up the gauntlet." I think that we will see more and more opportunities for CD's to finally get some grudging tolerance, IF we handle our situation with dignity and style.

Afro-Americans, before the Civil rights Movement, spent a great deal of time pursuing a mythical existence called, "passing." If you had white features, you could try and hide who you were in The White World. There's even an old movie about the subject called, "Pinkie." Black People, when they got some respect for themselves, went out and seized their opportunities, and quit worrying about "passing." Remember: "I'm Black and I'm Proud!"

If we get ourselves hung up on The Mantra of "passing," we will veer away from the realities we need to be addressing. Hope that someday, we will get some type of equivalent catch phrase that we can use. Something like: "I'm a CD and I'm PROUD!"

Peace and Love, Joanie

Ruth

07-24-2007, 04:41 PM

Great thread. I veer between wanting to look a complete woman and wanting to be just myself (a somewhat effeminate looking man wearing a dress). As Melissa pointed out, making efforts to pass when you go out cuts down on confrontation.
Confrontation moves the revolution forward but it's hard on the nerves.

Sally24

07-24-2007, 05:13 PM

Finally, a question. Are there any CDs following this thread who do pass but who allow themselves to be read from time-to-time? If so, under what circumstances do you do this and what reactions have you had?
Solidarity
Rowena
I generally pass pretty well, by myself or with my wife along. That being said I also go out with a T-girl Friday night group into Boston to hang out at some of the Hotel Lounges as well as hitting many different clubs. You would be surprised the number of people that come up to us and strike up a conversation. Usually they start by complimenting a particular top or outfit. That happens with me when I'm wearing either a sequined outfit or sparkles (everyone loves the sparkles!). Then they'll stumble a little trying to figure out how to refer to "us" or what we are doing. It's kind of funny sometimes.

I particularly remember a couple of young women from the midwest who were in town for a company Christmas party. They kept prefacing their questions with "Now we don't want to offend you or appear rude". I felt like saying "I'm dressed in a short sequined cocktail dress and earings! I don't think I'm shy!" They were very cute and learned alot that night.

We have a waitress at a place we frequent most weeks tell us about a young son she has. He appears to probably be a crossdresser and she has helped in a low key kind of way for him. She is always full of questions for us. We all tell her she is the cool Mom that we all wished we had growing up!

Sometimes talking with the general straight public like this is even cooler than being accepted as a GG at other times. It's just so nice to be able to first hand answer people's questions so they have some idea "what we're really about". Regardless of where I am though, I do try very hard to keep with the femme image. I walk and move like a woman as much as possible and I try my best to sound like a woman. The voice is coming much slower than the rest of the package. You should understand that there is a sizable portion of us that wish to experience at least a small portion of our lives as a woman. I'm not a man in a dress type, but I'm also not TS. I enjoy my male life but I do think I would have probably been happier overall as a woman. Now I do what I can to have the best of both worlds.

The fact that few of us pass 100% of the time means that almost all of us are "visible" to some extant, so we all are helping society "see" us and maybe get a little bit more used to the fact that we do exist.

Good topic!

Sherlyn

07-24-2007, 05:20 PM

Wendy me

07-24-2007, 05:27 PM

Sherlyn well said it's abought our sisterhood and not abought any thing more or less....

Cai

07-24-2007, 05:45 PM

I can't imagine the fear that must go into getting dressed and going out knowing that people will see through the mask. That's bravery, right there.

I'm sure even though who seem to pass "effortlessly" (though I'm sure it's lots of effort) get scared sometimes. I get scared, and the worst thing that someone is going to think of me is a woman wearing guy's clothes.

Tamara Croft

07-24-2007, 08:05 PM

I have to agree with Sher, it does seem like you're having a go at those that pass for those that don't being unaccepted... if anything, you're going to give those that pass a bloody complex and you might even shove them back in the closet... I thought we were a community, not them, those and the other... :Pfft:

heathersthomas1

07-24-2007, 08:21 PM

I have go out several times a month just for a walk orr drive and have been asked if I am a man or a woman befors at a bar that is for gay lesbian and trans people. When asked this by the woman at the bar I told her the truth that I am male and female but born male. I know that I am not passable full time but have had moments . I have had only one bad experianc in my life where I was threatened Iwas glad that I was driving at the time.
LOL :hugs: and to quote a my friend Cheri It takes balls to be some thing your not.

Lovely Rita

07-25-2007, 12:18 AM

The Revolution that pushes the boundaries of Society's acceptance of Crossdressers is advancing by those who are not passable and are read.

This thread was inspired by the thread SatinDoll posted, who went out for the first time and encountered some real jerks at a store she shopped at enfemme.

I could tell by the tone of SatinDoll's thread that she felt defeated and discouraged but she should feel good about her courage and the great courage she showed in going out for the first time and shopping enfemme.

She is the reason society's views will change not because of those in our community who pass.

Those who pass are not even noticed. They are counted as just some other woman, so what effect will they have?

No the ones who will make a difference are those who are read and still hold their head high and with dignity.

They are the heroes of this revolution.

Great work SatinDoll. You are my heroe:thumbsup:

Let us use logic to evaluate my thread.

If you pass, then people think you are a genetic girl. They will not make any snide comments or ridicule a genetic girl for wearing woman's clothing.

Those from our community who do not pass will be seen for what they are. Men wearing dresses, makeup etc.

They will make an impact on society. Society will notice them. Hopefully with time accept all of us.

If Society believes they are woman what impact will that make?

I find it ludicrous that anyone can look at this as some pot shot against those that pass. Give me a break.

The inspiration for this thread was the hardship and pain suffered by SatinDoll and I stand by my intent which was to encourage those who face adversity on our behalf because they are read. That is very heroic for me. It is difficult for me to understand how anyone can twist this into something negative.

Our members who face this kind of persecution need all the support and encouragement we can give them.

There is no divisiveness in that.

I have to agree with Sher, it does seem like you're having a go at those that pass for those that don't being unaccepted... if anything, you're going to give those that pass a bloody complex and you might even shove them back in the closet... I thought we were a community, not them, those and the other... :Pfft:

Now here is a real heroic portrait of those who pass. Hiding in closets full of complexes, now that is a damaging view if I ever read one.

It is your prerogative to agree with whom you like. What you see as me "having a go at those who pass," is completely incorrect.

I have also read a few posts that agree with my premise.

I am here to share my views in a civil manner whether they are popular or not.

I doubt that anyone here is so frail that they will develop a complex because they pass. I think more of them than that. I cannot imagine that they will be running as you say "back in the closet" because I have chosen to encourage our members who may not pass that easily. I also cannot imagine having to feel sorry for some one who is cursed with passing.

I can't imagine anyone crying," oh the curse of passing, sob sob sob, what will I do, sob sob sob":Pfft::tongueout

We are a community indeed. A little tension is always healthy and keeps all the hypocrisy away, which is quite harmful to any community. We do not cease to be a community because we have differences of opinion. The danger to any community is when we are not free to exchange our ideas and opinions. Then it ceases to be a community and becomes a dictatorship.

Joy Carter

07-25-2007, 01:28 AM

Rita myself I don't pass :eek:. I know it's a shock to all who know me. LoL
But I think it's incumbent, to all us girls who take this seriously and want to be accepted, to dress and act like the ladies we are.
:2c:

NewBetty

07-25-2007, 03:02 AM

Marla S

07-25-2007, 03:10 AM

Passing or not passing ..at least for me takes just as much nerve to go out in public places as anyone else ..its dam scary at times ...always wondering is this right ..Im not a natural female ..I dont care what anyone says.... >>.. just because I can look good and go out there DOES NOT MEAN its easier for me ...we are dressing up as women regardless if we pass or not ...to those that have the nerve and know they are being read I cheer you on :hugs: Lets just all do this to-gether and not put ourselves in groups of who can and who can't ..In fact its even harder at times if you can pass and look good ...because it invites stares and hit ons from males and believe me that discourages the heck out of me from going out at times .... to the point Ive said to Di I hate this :(...Im not the least bit interested ..I love Di ...not into men ..PERIOD

I have to agree with Sher, it does seem like you're having a go at those that pass for those that don't being unaccepted... if anything, you're going to give those that pass a bloody complex and you might even shove them back in the closet... I thought we were a community, not them, those and the other... :Pfft:

I do have to wonder.

Though Rita already did it, another attempt to get this straight.

Rita's point:
Those that don't pass make people aware of us. That's a fact.
Those that pass don't make people aware of us. That's a fact too.

Awareness is the means to gain acceptance. That's a fact.
Blending in has no effect for acceptance, because what isn't noticed provides no thought-provoking impulse. That's a fact too.

Baseline: Passing has no effect on gaining acceptance for our community. FACT

Rita at no point offended those that pass, but she encourage those that don't to leave the closet, in a great way BRAVO for that.

@Sherlyn
I think I see where you've been hurt, but Rita at no point said something about personal feelings of passing CDs and how hard it is at time for them to venture out. I think we all know that the fear to get negative reactions is a familiar companoin of all of us.
What you describe above might not be a CD specific problem though, I heard that concern from quite a few GGs too. Some drew consequences to avoid that.

@bloddy complex.
Tamara send them over to me. I know quite a few little tricks to become non-passable. CDs don't have to pass. Passing is curable in seconds.

We are a community indeed. A little tension is always healthy and keeps all the hypocrisy away, which is quite harmful to any community. We do not cease to be a community because we have differences of opinion. The danger to any community is when we are not free to exchange our ideas and opinions.
Indeed

Kristen Kelly

07-25-2007, 04:23 AM

None of us pass all the time but I go out with confidence all the time and I'am out 3-4 times a week at night as well as the day

Rita I see you are always up for a challenge, as another Jersey Girl I challenge you to please join us out one night, the only place I've seen you has been here, you name the place, would love you to join my friends and self out, we travel and get out all over Tri state area.

Rita you replyed to everyone else are you ingnoring my challange you talk the talk can you walk the walk

Satrana

07-25-2007, 05:00 AM

It is good to see a thread like this as it demonstrates the growing maturity of this community in coming to grips with who we are and what our rights are. If we are men wanting to express femininity then that is exactly what we should be doing. Passing is a wonderful dream and undoubtedly great fun but it is tangential to what crossdressers are really all about.

There is nothing wrong in the art of passing but it does result in our sidestepping the issue of acceptance of a man in a skirt. It is of course easier to blend in and be invisible instead of facing the stress of being the center of attention of a disapproving public, but hats off to those who are determined to just show the real person and not pretend to be something which they are not.

I myself never bother with mannerisms and changing my voice etc, and don't even bother much with breast forms anymore as I am increasingly becoming more comfortable with just being me. It is a skin toughening experience but in the long run I think you end up a better person,l someone who can hold their head up high and not cower under other people's prejudices.

Kate Simmons

07-25-2007, 05:11 AM

The way I see it, two things are accomplished when people, knowing I'm a man complement me about my looks.:

1. They acknowledge I'm a crossdresser and accept that.

2. They accept me and treat me as the true individual that I am.

Works for me.:happy:

Sally24

07-25-2007, 06:07 AM

If we are men wanting to express femininity then that is exactly what we should be doing. Passing is a wonderful dream and undoubtedly great fun but it is tangential ("of little relevance" - added by Sally) to what crossdressers are really all about.

There is nothing wrong in the art of passing but it does result in our sidestepping the issue of acceptance of a man in a skirt. Hats off to those who are determined to just show the real person and not pretend to be something which they are not.

Let's try to be accepting of everyone here. I understand there are many CDs that just want to express their feminine feelings and don't really experience any gender disphoria. I applaud them for being able to take this hard road, in public or at home. Lets hope that the public will at least get to the point of allowing them their individuality.

But to dismiss those that want to appear to be women as missing the point is totally off target. A man in a skirt has nothing to do with me, as much as I support his right to wear one. At times I want to be a woman, as this is not possible I try to come as close as I can. That is not "pretending to be something which they are not." If anything it is a more honest representation of who I really am. I do not try to interact with men on a dating level and fool them but at a social level they don't have any need to know my gender as that is never going to be involved that deeply with me.

The bold type is to emphisize things, not a sign that I am mad. I just want people to understand that there are many issues here and they are not the same for everyone. We are a group of very different people with many common problems and joys. This is the best place I have found to interact with my sisters and we just have to be careful not to oversimplify things. Crossdressing is anything but simple!:GE:

Wendy me

07-25-2007, 06:32 AM

lol it's no wonder why we don't get accepted by every one ....we are as the rest of the people out there ........ you all know i don't do labels CD to trans this or that pre.... post...what ever ..

lets say this here i am on a forum that is to make every one feel safe ..... it's our safe place.... hats off to "EVERY ONE" that goes out .... or stays home in the darkest closet.....love yar all .....

i am not passable ...... far from it as i see it....i get out as much as i can .... and not as much as i would like.... i don't try to be a GG look alike .... i try to be me....

acceptance only comes when each of us accepts who they are and all others of the same intrest....... then we might be strong as a group were family and Friends as well as all others would accept us......

as far as the revolution goes ...... hell 90% of our troupes are shell shocked or calling in sick .....as for the other side ...... we are such a threat ....they don't even know there's a revolution going on......

MsJanessa

07-25-2007, 07:15 AM

Let Me relate My experience with t-girls "passing"----many of Us think We can pass because We can go to a Mall and people don't point and stare at us--that doesn't necessarily mean we are "passing" as GGs---there are three possibilities----the most likly is that people are too busy and preoccupied with their own affairs to give Us anything but a cursory glance and unless there is something totally odd(like being real tall---or real large or some other dead giveaway) we don't get a second glance---If you consider that passing then fine---but it really isn't in My book---passing is going out in the real world and interacting with people in general and having them think you are a GG---This would require Us to be able to engage people one on one, converse with them for a period of time and not have them suspect----I doubt that few here could actually pull that off. The second possiblity when people don't point or laugh at you, even after you have engaged them one on one(like sales clerks, etc) is that most people are more polite and tolerant of us then we know and do accept our cding and of course the final possiblity is that some of us are so feminine that they can actually be accepted as GGs 24/7---in My experience the only people I know that have done that are those lucky transexuals who in addition to being petite have undergone estrogen therapy and other femization procedures.:2c:

Charleen

07-25-2007, 07:57 AM

I didn't see anything negative in the thread as posted. It was an encouragement to those that want to go out.
We ARE a diverse community. Everything from wearing an SO's panties a couple of times a year to those that go out and pass on a regular basis, and everything in between. I think that most of us would like to be accepted for who and/or what we do. There in lies the rub. If the only thing alot of people know about us is they they "learn" on Springer..........
While I applaud those of us who go out, I can not condemn those that don't. I spent over 30 years in the closet. I understand the problems and the reasons for being in there.
On the other hand, for over 6 months I have worn fem clothes at all times when not at work. Most of the time I look adrogynous. Lately doing what I call the full Lily. Sometimes I pass, some not. Even true when I'm not trying at all. Is this for everyone? Of course not.
I am comfortable expressing my femininity with long hair, long polished nails, hoop earrings, wearing mascara at ALL times, you get the idea. That's me though. Took me a loooooong time to get to this point.
The thing is is that those of us who go out are letting the unwashed know that we are out there, and we are not at all like those Springer sensationalist lies. MHO is that as more of us venture out, the more "they" can see we are not a threat to anything or anyone. I know it ain't happenin' in my life time, but I can see where we will be some what accepted down the road. It takes getting the truth about us out there. A few of us talk to groups, there are more programs on TV with the real us, and just being among the unwashed helps I believe.
For those of you that do venture out and for those that are thinking about it, yes we are going to be clocked. Yes we are going to run into the rude like Satin Doll did. Goes with the territory. Most however keep their mouths shut. They know who we are though. They've seen us. They might make us a topic of conversation around the dining room table or the water cooler. You know what? That's alright! The word gets around that we're out there. Hell, seeing us might be the most exciting thing that has happened in their lives in a while!
If you pass at all times-great! Nothing wrong with that at all. Wish I could. It takes fortitude to do what we do. For those that don't go out out-great! Yes great. You are doing what you feel comfortable with. My tag line says comfortable in my own skin. That's the key no matter where we are on this journey.
Love and xxxx, Lily

Marla S

07-25-2007, 08:10 AM

It's also a fact that while public exposure can lead to greater societal familiarity and acceptance, that's not the only possible outcome.
I never said that being open solves all the problems. This thread was started because of one of those respective problems. Indeed, there always will be resentments.

Limiting myself to discussing ts women, I've met a ts woman who is "out and proud" - the problem is that she's constantly emphasizing how alien and different she is. I swear, she couldn't go 2 sentences in casual conversation without somehow referencing her trans status (or her anatomy - she was pre-op). Some of the tangents she went off on about her anatomy and her pre-op sex life with men were not particularly appropriate dinner topics (especially for a group of women, almost all of whom were lesbian). I'm not convinced that constantly reminding people around her that she's not like other women is all that helpful to the rest of us.
That is not what I meant.
You describe a general personal problem but not a CD/TS one.
I do know people as well that constantly tell how clever they are, or how hard their life is, how different they are, ect.
You don't have to be TS to annoy people by fishing for compliments, commiseration, attention. (Usually those people are a bit under-confident).

I won't endeavor to give an example of a similarly non-constructive CD - for one thing, I don't actually know any MTF crossdressers in real life (although I do know some drag kings). But just remember, contrary to the old saying, not all publicity is good publicity.
Right, but if we leave it to the CD/TS folks that give us bad publicity, bad publicity is what we get.

Marla S

07-25-2007, 08:21 AM

I'm just saying that if increasing public acceptance is an actual goal (to the point of encouraging passable people to not pass), then people should also make sure that their behavior/dress/etc are such that they are actually going to be more likely than not to achieve that goal. Just going out wearing female clothes isn't (by itself) enough to necessarily help gain acceptance (and I though that was part of the real topic of this thread - gaining public acceptance of crossdressing).
Very true.

Kate Simmons

07-25-2007, 08:35 AM

I'm not really disagreeing with you.

I'm just saying that if increasing public acceptance is an actual goal (to the point of encouraging passable people to not pass), then people should also make sure that their behavior/dress/etc are such that they are actually going to be more likely than not to achieve that goal. Just going out wearing female clothes isn't (by itself) enough to necessarily help gain acceptance (and I though that was part of the real topic of this thread - gaining public acceptance of crossdressing).That having been said Kehleyr, I guess my real goal was to be accepted for myself as a person rather than acceptance as a crossdresser. That has been accomplished. I've also managed to de-mystify CDing somewhat along the way for my friends who accept me.:happy:

Cai

07-25-2007, 08:50 AM

I'm not really disagreeing with you.

I'm just saying that if increasing public acceptance is an actual goal (to the point of encouraging passable people to not pass), then people should also make sure that their behavior/dress/etc are such that they are actually going to be more likely than not to achieve that goal. Just going out wearing female clothes isn't (by itself) enough to necessarily help gain acceptance (and I though that was part of the real topic of this thread - gaining public acceptance of crossdressing).

I think I agree (if I understand what you're saying here). Those who go out and are not passable, need to make further efforts to be polite, to smile, to spread acceptance, and to stand up for themselves. Which seems to be exactly what most of you girls do.

07-25-2007, 09:08 AM

ErikaLeigh

07-25-2007, 09:23 AM

Well for what its worth I didnt think what Rita wrote was meant as a jab towards anyone. The original intention was encouragement towards those of us who go out and are NOT passable. Believe me, IF I could pass I would be out there much more, and be very happy about blending in easier because I like my femme side. What I do see is beautiful gurls like Sher should count themselves as BLESSED that they were given such an awesome body to go along with this little crossdressing gift we have all been given.

Betty H

07-25-2007, 09:25 AM

The Revolution that pushes the boundaries of Society's acceptance of Crossdressers is advancing by those who are not passable and are read.

This thread was inspired by the thread SatinDoll posted, who went out for the first time and encountered some real jerks at a store she shopped at enfemme.

I could tell by the tone of SatinDoll's thread that she felt defeated and discouraged but she should feel good about her courage and the great courage she showed in going out for the first time and shopping enfemme.

She is the reason society's views will change not because of those in our community who pass.

Those who pass are not even noticed. They are counted as just some other woman, so what effect will they have?

No the ones who will make a difference are those who are read and still hold their head high and with dignity.

They are the heroes of this revolution.

Great work SatinDoll. You are my heroe:thumbsup:

Rita,

It seems that the problem here IMO is your attempt to make a grandoise sweeping statement reagrding the transgendered cause or "revolution" (your term not mine) as opposed to simply applauding Satin Doll for her courage to go out in the world and encouraging her to continue to do so. If you simply wanted to do applaud and encourage Satin Doll, as any of us might, then all of this nonsense could have been avoided.

Howvever you seem to try to wax eloquent and make sweeping statements about what will further the "revolution".I can easily see how Sherlyn interpreted that negatively.To compound the matter you seem to be unable to tolerate any criticism or questioning from her - a fellow "sister". It seems rather telling that some one who likes to appear so supportive of others jumps all over a "sister" who questions or disagrees.

As far as your logic goes regarding who and what furthers the "revolution" I find it to be rather faulty and simplistic. All transgendered whether passable or not, who make reasonable presentations of themselves and behave in a responsible manner make their contributions;it is not the domain of the non-passable or any particular segment of our community. They may do it quietly ,but they are out there in the community interacting with society at large and influencing others with their actions.

It has been said before that it takes a great deal of courage to go public and that is the truth ; the perceptions of society as a whole regarding transgendered people are changed by ALL of us who do go public ,who are out actually out there- in the front lines so to speak.

I don't usually contribute to threads like this on the internet; because of the nature and limitations of such communications they frequently seem to lend themselves to misunderstanding and many seem to end up as this one did. However, it really disturbs me to see a" sister" such as Sherlyn (who incidentally I don't really know) that is actually out there active in the community to be criticized by anyone who simply does not appear to venture out from behind a keyboard.

Elizabeth

Lovely Rita

07-25-2007, 10:03 AM

Rita...........you said.................................."I find it ludicrous that anyone can look at this as some pot shot against those that pass. Give me a break."

After you said in the first post................."Those who pass are not even noticed. They are counted as just some other woman, so what effect will they have."

I thought we were a community here.....and I find your remarks very dishearting ................just what kind of revolution are you talking about......... sounds more you are pitting those who can pass and want to pass AGAINST those who do not. As far as I'm concerned you owe everyone an apology and try being accepting of everyone here.

My conscience is clear and I do not apologize for supporting my position on the subject. We all have the right to agree or dissagree.

I apologize when I have concluded that I have done something wrong. I apologize when others have shown me where I have done something wrong.

At this point I do not believe I have done anything to apologize for.

If I apologize for any other reason then it would be undignified. To apologize because of peer pressure would be distasteful.

I do not demand apologies from anyone who dissagrees with my position, in fact I welcome it. I am not afraid of healthy debate. We have a great opportunity to extrapolate truth through the exercise of healthy debate.

I am a proponent of freedom of speech. I was also raised to support and defend what I believe.

I am thrilled to have heard from so many moderators on the subject.

I have not engaged in any personal attacks and I am not aware of breaking any forum rules.

Lovely Rita

07-25-2007, 10:52 AM

Rita,

It seems that the problem here IMO is your attempt to make a grandoise sweeping statement reagrding the transgendered cause or "revolution" (your term not mine) as opposed to simply applauding Satin Doll for her courage to go out in the world and encouraging her to continue to do so. If you simply wanted to do applaud and encourage Satin Doll, as any of us might, then all of this nonsense could have been avoided.

What you call nonsense someone else may see as discussion. It is interesting for me to see how open dialogue on a subject appears threatening or even distasteful.

This is a forum for discussing ideas. Are opposing view points a no no? I do not think so but you have every right to dissagree.

Howvever you seem to try to wax eloquent and make sweeping statements about what will further the "revolution".I can easily see how Sherlyn interpreted that negatively.To compound the matter you seem to be unable to tolerate any criticism or questioning from her - a fellow "sister". It seems rather telling that some one who likes to appear so supportive of others jumps all over a "sister" who questions or disagrees.

I think the term you use "Jumps all over a "sister, is a vast overstatement on your part. I don't know where I have jumped over anyone.

Supporting ones position when met with opposition is not jumping over anyone.

I cannot understand why you would see healthy dissent as intolerance on my part. Are we supposed to tow the line here, or are we to speak freely.

There has not ever been one incident of a personal attack from me on another member even when provoked. I have made sure to stay within the guidlines and framework of the forum.

Since you are mentioning names Sherlyn was the first to voice her dissent with my statement, which is her right. I also have the right to support my position. I have no personal issues with anyone.

Intolerance according to Websters definition.

Unwilling to grant equality, freedom, or other social rights

Now who is really acting intolerant?

As far as your logic goes regarding who and what furthers the "revolution" I find it to be rather faulty and simplistic. All transgendered whether passable or not, who make reasonable presentations of themselves and behave in a responsible manner make their contributions;it is not the domain of the non-passable or any particular segment of our community. They may do it quietly ,but they are out there in the community interacting with society at large and influencing others with their actions.

It has been said before that it takes a great deal of courage to go public and that is the truth ; the perceptions of society as a whole regarding transgendered people are changed by ALL of us who do go public ,who are out actually out there- in the front lines so to speak.

I don't usually contribute to threads like this on the internet; because of the nature and limitations of such communications they frequently seem to lend themselves to misunderstanding and many seem to end up as this one did. However, it really disturbs me to see a" sister" such as Sherlyn (who incidentally I don't really know) that is actually out there active in the community to be criticized by anyone who simply does not appear to venture out from behind a keyboard.

Elizabeth

Again you seem to be criticising me without basis. I am not aware of any personal criticism of Sherlyn by me.

As for your remark about me not appearing to venture out from behind a keyboard. I admit I have not met with you but that again is not a strong basis for your assumption.

Having said that I will end with the word that wins all arguments and even philosophers have not been able to come up with winning response to.

WHATEVER:D

SatinDoll00

07-25-2007, 10:54 AM

...I appreciate what Rita was trying to do. I really, really do.

I must admit, I don't pass as well as I had thought I might. I don't know all the tricks, I wasn't born with a fem body. I am learning though. Nothing would make me happier than to be like Sher or Karren Hutton and be able to pass 100% of the time. I was not trying to make any statements or anything by going out. I just got a little ahead of myself.

I took a lot of courage from those on this board that have gone out, and judging from what I have seen, are not all that passable (not everyone that has gone out is 100% passable). It made me think, if they can...I can. I was not really prepared.

It is unfortunate that we as CDers must conform to the social norms that GGs must follow. But then again, if we are truly seeking acceptance, we must. Think about it like this...if I were out in drab, dressed up like a Nazi officer, or the Wolfman, people would notice. Me going out dressed as a woman at least gives me the opportunity to go unnoticed, if I do it right.

Now don't take me wrong here...I am not saying that CDers are like Nazis or Werewolves. I am only saying that anything outside of the norm is going to get noticed. Gurls like Sher and Karren Hutton have discovered what those norms are, and have found a way to operate within them, and it helps them to pass.

For all those out there that have not gone out yet but plan to...

Listen to the advice of some of the more passable Gurls out there. Look at what you are wearing vs. what GGs are. Will it make you pass? Not necessarily. But my advice is find a level of conformity that you can live with, and take the flak for what you can't. I am in the process of learning...but I am NOT GIVING UP!

For those that pass...I am sorry if I did anything to 'set you back'. I know it takes a lot of work and effort to get to where you are, and when people like me go out in public, it hurts the overall acceptability of CDers. I'm not sure I am "Springer" material...but I do understand what I did wrong.

I did do a couple of things RIGHT though. I got out, I bought my shoes, and learned some things. If I had gone out and not gotten treated rudely, I may have assumed I was passable...which I think is what a lot of CDers do. As it is, it will be some time before I venture out again. But when I do, I will be more passable than before...and thanks to the support and encouragement of the members of this forum, I will be more prepared to handle any negative reaction that I encounter.

Unfortunately for all of us, we, as a group, will never change the fashion industry, or the norms that GGs follow. I would LOVE to go to the mall in a prom dress...but I realize that is not acceptable. I would look at a GG wearing the same thing and think to myself 'What is she wearing?'...but I would never be rude enough to chide her for it or call her out on it!

As a group of sisters, CDers should accept one another. This should not turn into those that pass vs. those that don't. Those of us that don't can learn from those that can, and those that can pass can take greater pride in their own passability...even if it comes at our expense sometimes.

Sorry for the long rambling post, but I somewhat feel responsible for this division here...and that was NEVER my intent to begin with.

Morgan (revolutionary or evolutionary?)

Lovely Rita

07-25-2007, 10:55 AM

The definition of the word Forum as per The Merriam Webstar Dictionary

A medium (as a publication) of open discussion.

KimberlyS

07-25-2007, 11:04 AM

Rita, what a great thread. I agree very much so with what you are saying. There are many types of cross dressers and none of us are any better than the other. We just are who we are. But it is those that are known and/or seen as CDers that help the most with acceptance. We are not undercover spies yet often it seems like that is our goal.

I hear many CDers whine and complain about acceptance yet do nothing to push for acceptance. I understand the need for confidentiality to protect our families. We are affecting much more than our selves. Now I am not saying that tomorrow we all need to throw risk to the wind. We all skill need to evaluate out own personal and family safety. There are still a lot of risks out there. But we all can do something given the right situation and location.

Looking back in history those that wanted rights stood up and got counted showing that they were not the only one. Look back at all of the rallies, marches, demonstrations in the public eye, and often in front of the state capitals or Washington DC. I do not see one of these in our near future even though it would be the best thing we could do. We can not even get good statistics on how many CDers there are. So with out the statistics and the show of faces we are mostly just some imaginary group of people.

On to passing or not passing. I applaud everyone that wants to go out and does. And I know going out is not for everyone and those that do not go out should not feel pushed to go out if they do not want to. For those of us that go out it means that others can see us and we can hopefully give them a positive view of who a CDer is. But for me if you go out and want to help push acceptance others need to know you are a CDer if you are passing or not. I think "Passing" is great if you can do it. But "IF" you want to help with acceptance others need to know you are a CDer when you are out. It may be as simple as using your male CC and ID when out instead of trying to completely hide who you are. Or it could be as simple as letting others know you are CDer.

For me personally, I do not believe I "Pass". My goal when out is to blend well from a distance by having a decent presentable feminine image. And those that do notice me and I interact with I want to give a positive image of a guy in feminine clothes who is confident about being out.

To use an old stand by:

"Are you confident in your own masculinity to be seen or let or let people know, you are a guy wearing femme clothes."

"Are you confident in your "Passing" to allow others to know you are a CD."

And I can hear some of those that do not get out thinking:
"and what can we do?"
There are things all of us can do. Have you wrote your local, state, or federal government representatives to let they know how you feel. To you continue to support the "Men are only Macho" thought and talking. Or do you think and talk the talk that "men can do and be feminine also". Do you stick up for all peoples rights when they are talked about negatively. Or to you push for the acceptance of everyone for who they are. And how many of us give to the national organizations to help them lobby for our rights.

So instead of being scared and afraid of others knowing, We need to let others know. We just need to be careful who we let know. For me, the best way that I let others know I am a CDer is to get out of town. Usually WAY out of town as this gets me away from those that know me allowing me to be more open with others. And I have also joined a national CDing group that is out educating others about all TG people.

Lovely Rita

07-25-2007, 11:09 AM

Hi KimberlyS

I appreciate what you wrote.

There are things all of us can do. Have you wrote your local, state, or federal government representatives to let they know how you feel. To you continue to support the "Men are only Macho" thought and talking. Or do you think and talk the talk that "men can do and be feminine also". Do you stick up for all peoples rights when they are talked about negatively. Or to you push for the acceptance of everyone for who they are. And how many of us give to the national organizations to help them lobby for our rights.

Tamara Croft

07-25-2007, 11:10 AM

The point you made, was those that pass do not matter, because they ‘evidently’ have no issues. You couldn't be far wrong. Just because a person passes to one person, does not mean they would pass to someone else. And have you thought, just because they do not get noticed, perhaps this is because no one actually cares? Maybe many pass in their areas because where they live, people are more accepting, maybe they have got past all societies bs in their area, maybe they have won their - in your words - revolution.

But to simply push people aside, just because they 'pass', is insensitive. You may not comprehend what you said was wrong, but it was and for all you know, you pushed Sher two steps back, made her believe that she wasn't doing anything to help. Maybe I should be so blunt with you, you're not exactly doing anything for your so called revolution are you, you're not even out there, yet you spurt out all this revolution crap and make others feel guilty of passing, but what exactly have you done? Seems to me, you're all mouth and no skirt!!

KimberlyS

07-25-2007, 11:14 AM

[QUOTE=SatinDoll00;947965]... It is unfortunate that we as CDers must conform to the social norms that GGs must follow. But then again, if we are truly seeking acceptance, we must. /QUOTE]

SatinDoll, some things to think about:

Why must we conform to social norms?

Does the current gothic style conform to social norms?

Do tatoos conform to social norms? Did they 10 years ago like it is today?

Does piercing conform to social norms? Did it 10 years ago like it is today?

Do any of the fade or rebel styles conform to social norms?

What is social norms?

Why must we follow social norms?

KimberlyS

07-25-2007, 11:41 AM

Tamara, Sher, and others:

To me this thread seems to have taken yet another side track because of the dam word "PASSING". I really dislike this word as for many of us, IMHO, we are looking for acceptance of who we are more than "Passing" as a GG.

**
To me when I use "Passing:

In theory the CDer is seen in every way as a GG. And those they meet and interact with in all ways think of them as a GG.

** KimberlyS's definition of passing for a CDer.

But this of course always seems to lead in to the great discussion of "Do we really pass" or are we "just being accepted" or ......? which is not part of this thread.

So given my definition of "Passing" I do not see Rita looking down on or putting down those that do or want to "Pass". But instead I see Rita as praising those that are willing to make the step to push acceptance and allow others to know they are guys in femme clothes. As in my first post in this thread, all CDers can push for acceptance in different ways, but stepping out and visually pushing CDing and Social Norms is pushing acceptance greater.

I just wish we could all get over the nit picking of the words and just get along. Yes some people have agenda's in every word they select. But many of us just post and are grammar and spelling challenged.

Group hug. :gh::gh::gh:

PaulaJaneThomas

07-25-2007, 11:57 AM

I think the fundamental premise that there are those who pass 100% is somewhat flawed. Certainly there are many of us who go out and about and don't get any hastle but that doesn't mean I pass 100%. I always get read close up when interacting with others and expect most other TGs do too. I probably get read quite a lot at more of a distance too but people simply don't care or are too polite to say anything.

Lovely Rita

07-25-2007, 01:21 PM

The point you made, was those that pass do not matter, because they ‘evidently’ have no issues. <snip>

How you arrive at your conclusions from what I wrote is somewhat baffling. Many times people read what they want to read. You seem to want make this about Sherlyn, which it is not.

As in any discussion it is always a good idea to contextualize.

Context according to The Merriam Webster Dictionary.

The parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and help to explain its meaning. also the circumstances surrounding an act or event.

Those who pass are not even noticed. They are counted as just some other woman, so what effect will they have?

Is precisely what I wrote in the context of being noticed. Everyone matters in my book.

Your words and I quote "Maybe I should be so blunt with you, you're not exactly doing anything for your so called revolution are you, you're not even out there, yet you spurt out all this revolution crap and make others feel guilty of passing, but what exactly have you done? Seems to me, you're all mouth and no skirt!!"

You can do whatever you please. You have no power or hold over me.

It is very interesting to see an Administrator break the First Commandment of the Forum. Let me display it below and you interpret the law as you see fit since you seem to be judge and jury here.

Personal Attacks and Abuse against fellow members are not allowed and will result in moderation. Threats of violence by any member against any other member/s will not be tolerated and posts will be immediately deleted.

Above is the Forums rules not mine. I still have not attacked anyone personally:D

Seems like you are getting a little personal my dear don't you? As if you even knew the first thing about me. I think you are on shaky ground.

Or would you be willing to provide me with your version of what constitutes personal attacks?

Let everyone who is reading take note that I never once made this personal and still don't.

I am never afraid of anything that is said because I am not making this some fight that has to be won at all costs.

This is not about winning an argument. This is about free speech.

According to what I understood this Forum stood for was free speech.

Should I have started this thread with for FTMs only?:D

This thead has proven more fun than a barrel of monkeys

Sorry, but I am not an apple polishing sychophant

Tamara, Sher, and others:

To me this thread seems to have taken yet another side track because of the dam word "PASSING". I really dislike this word as for many of us, IMHO, we are looking for acceptance of who we are more than "Passing" as a GG.
<snip>

You understood my intent. You made my day:love:

Thanks Kimberly

If by chance I do not respond to new posts on this thread for a little while, please be patient. I am preparing for a trip to the Far East and have to take care of some pending matters.

I will try to respond whenever I can. It has been great fun indeed.

Thank you

SatinDoll00

07-25-2007, 02:33 PM

Have a FANTASTIC trip!

While there...pick up some of those FABULOUS satin dresses they make in the orient. I bought one a while back online, and it is to die for!!

While I wish this thread had not turned into an us vs. them, I do appriciate your support. It meant more to me than you can know. Yours and everyone elses.

I am NOT GIVING UP! In fact, I just put my face on and I think it looks better today. Using some clothes I dug up out of the attic...girl jeans and a loose fitting top that my wife wore when she was heavier, I am headed back out today dammit!!!

This time I am going to get gas, and going to Wal-Mart. I need to find darker concealer and I REALLY DO NOT CARE WHO KNOWS IT!!

Thank you, from the bottom of my not-as-girly-as-I-would-like-to-be-heart!!

Viva la Revolution!

Morgan

Jodi

07-25-2007, 02:34 PM

I thought it was time to chime in here. Poor Rita--You have taken a beating just for stating your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion.

As for me, I enjoy most going out in the mainstream and interacting with normal people in a normal environment. Occasionally, I go to a tranny bar, but the evening must include some form of activity in the mainstream or I don't go out. I am not a fan of going to just tranny bars. I know that I am not totally passable, but have been told on many occasions by both men and women that I look good and know how to dress and act. That is what is important to me. If there is any statement that I wish to make when I am out is that I know how to dress and act well and play the part well enough to be accepted.

I have been out to dinner at upscale restaurants many times. I have gone twice to a large, straight New Year's Eve party. I have gone to concerts, plays and concerts. I have spent a week enfemme on vacation at a lake resort. I shop with ease and use the ladies room freely--all enfemme. I have never had a problem. Yes, I have been read, but have been treated with respect.

The only statement that I want to make while out dressed is that I am a women out doing the normal things that ladies do.

Also, when asked for opinions from others on this board, as Satindoll did, I will give an honest, tactful answer. All of my answers on presentability (passability) are based on my personal knowledge and experience.

Again, Rita has her opinion. Don't be so defensive.

Jodi

Tamara Croft

07-25-2007, 03:27 PM

You can do whatever you please. You have no power or hold over me.

It is very interesting to see an Administrator break the First Commandment of the Forum. Let me display it below and you interpret the law as you see fit since you seem to be judge and jury here. Just because I'm an administrator, doesn't mean I'm posting as one does it!!! I love the way I always get 'oh your admin, you shouldn't be blah blah blah...' whatever... You're allowed an opinion, but because I'm the admin I'm not? And what's with this 'power over me' rubbish? Why would I want power over you, wtf is that supposed to mean? And I'm not above the rules, if I had attacked you in anyway, you would have known about it :rolleyes:

KimberlyS

07-25-2007, 04:08 PM

I have re-read Rita's initial post almost a dozen times now along with other posts several times,and I do not understand where the attacks are coming from.

I think the fundamental premise that there are those who pass 100% is somewhat flawed.

Paula, would you please point out and PM me what part of Rita's post made you come to this statement?

If it is the line:

"Those who pass are not even noticed. They are counted as just some other woman"

I personally took that as Rita's definition of Passing so we knew what she was talking about. And this post is not a thread on what the definition of what Passing is. This tread is about a type of CDing that Rita feels helps to push acceptance the most.

Satrana

07-25-2007, 04:16 PM

At times I want to be a woman, as this is not possible I try to come as close as I can. That is not "pretending to be something which they are not." If anything it is a more honest representation of who I really am. I do not try to interact with men on a dating level and fool them but at a social level they don't have any need to know my gender as that is never going to be involved that deeply with me.

Sally

I am talking specifically about crossdressers not about transgendered/transsexual individuals who do want to be women in which case passing as a woman is indeed a true reflection of who they are.

Most crossdresses do not actually want to be a woman but do dream about it. When they seek to pass in public, this is a form of deception even if there is nothing actually wrong with it.

This thread is about pointing out that our community will progress with wider acceptance when cds understand and appreciate that its ok not to pass and indeed is a truer reflection of themselves which in the long run will benefit others.

How you want to present yourself is your own decision and I am not criticizing anyone who does want to pass as a woman whether that is because of their degree of transgenderness or they are simply having fun.

TxKimberly

07-25-2007, 04:36 PM

I could make this a long reply but why? Everything I would say has already been said. I just want to add my support to it - I couldn't agree more!
:-)

PaulaJaneThomas

07-25-2007, 05:07 PM

Paula, would you please point out and PM me what part of Rita's post made you come to this statement?

If it is the line:

"Those who pass are not even noticed. They are counted as just some other woman"

What makes you think I was quoting or paraphrasing Rita's post?

This tread is about a type of CDing that Rita feels helps to push acceptance the most.

Based on a somewhat flawed notion of passing. I seriously doubt anyone passes that well that they never get read. As a matter of interest, are you one of the "don't pass, don't care" types?

Sherlyn

07-25-2007, 05:37 PM

..because it really does not help the cause of this ...hmmmmm Revolution...apparently since girls like myself can blend in so well ..it matters not that we are out there... and ..I can say this.. honestly... terrified at times ...at the vulnerability choosing to dress the way we do .....3 yrs of posting....growing and helping run this forum ....and yet I might as well not even think Ive progressed and overcome some of the challenges that come with gender identity issues ... because apparently //without walking my shoes it is assumed it comes easier for us that can pass..Rita get off your pc ....put your ass out there ...come back ..tell me how it went ..because it seems you lead this ..hmmmmmmm revolution ...should not the leader be in the public eye ..pushing our way ??

Lovely Rita

07-25-2007, 08:32 PM

Just because I'm an administrator, doesn't mean I'm posting as one does it!!! I love the way I always get 'oh your admin, you shouldn't be blah blah blah...' whatever... You're allowed an opinion, but because I'm the admin I'm not? And what's with this 'power over me' rubbish? Why would I want power over you, wtf is that supposed to mean? And I'm not above the rules, if I had attacked you in anyway, you would have known about it :rolleyes:

I love it. It is so clear to see most moderators, especially you, suffer from the same siege mentality of other civil servants. You are just a paper tiger. You apparently cannot see how you and all the other moderators have turned this into an "Us and Them," atmosphere. The moderators have been appearing as the "US" and the rest of us are the "them."

Who died and appointed you spokesman of anything. You are not even a CD so why are you even in the fray? The only infraction of any rules calling for moderation were committed by you so why don't you moderate yourself?:D

You remind me of those civil servants who have the false sense of power and try to wield what little of it they have. It is absolutely laughable.

What is your purpose? To add fuel to the fire? You should be embarrassed for your undignified behavior.

I have not idea what Administrator means or what the purpose is. And don't tell me I really don't care.