Crossdressing In General

[mncrossdress]

Hey,

Why is it that a woman can wear a men's clothes, but when a guy wears women's clothes he is not accepted by society?

Just a thought!

[CarrieAnneEvers]

Yep, it's not fair, but mtf crossdressing is becoming more accepted. We're still considered weirdos , but at least we are more accepted weirdos! lol

[Kate Simmons]

Depends on who you mean by "society". Since we are part of "society", I guess at least part of "society" accepts it.:happy:

[dskin]

Well here in s/w ontario.we are celebrating .gay/les week. I have no problem being accepted.I am want I am and i'm so proud being a cd and enjoy my clothing i wear.Whether it be black tights with a short skirt,I always wear bra with forms and i smile all day long,just being me.Today i'm cutting my yard with bra and tanktop, and the shortest shorts i have ,going to wave at every passer by.Hope they wave Back.

[Tree GG]

I saw this thread and said to myself, "Don't do it. Keep on walking and ignore it." So much for listening to myself....

If you stated this complaint as, "Why can't men wear skirts and dresses when going to a formal or dressier social event?" I'd probably sympathize with the argument.

CDers aren't just wearing clothes, which the majority of women wearing a suit & tie (which is the only thing I personally would classify as "men's" clothes) isn't trying to make the world believe she is a man. It's simple clothing-fashion. CDers are trying to get society to believe they are a woman (in general, not all CDers of course).

Plus, which are female and which are male clothes? As Salandra pointed out, societies are different around the world. Caftans worn in the Middle East & Africa are technically dresses. Kilts are skirts. But would a CDer wear either of those & be satisfied that they crossdressed? Majority has spoken no as it is not labelled as "women's wear" so does not achieve the desired result. But it's still a dress or a skirt so men around the world CAN wear what you may consider women's clothes and be perfectly acceptable in their society.

Levi jeans were originated as rugged work clothing for the mines. Not necessarily men's wear - work wear. It just happened at the time that it was socially unacceptable for women to work in the mines.

My husband tried that "you can wear anything you want" argument - and I'm not buying it. I cannot wear anything I want. If I want to be considered a competent professional, I must wear the uniform that social group accepts as norm. If I want to appear as a serious athlete-wannabe at the tennis club - I wear the uniform. EVERYONE picks a social group they want to be included in and adopts the acceptable garb of that group or pays a price for being "different" and must earn the acceptance in other ways. CD's (not TS) are asking for acceptance in a social group that is primarily determined by biology, not clothing. There is nothing I can wear that would get me accepted in the "good ol' boy club". I just haven't got the raw material.

[Mary447]

not fair.....
but I'm willing to put up with it for the way it feels, gf........:happy:

[Karren H]

Now you've done it... Got Tree GG all riled up!! Lol. But she's also right... Well mostly.. Except for the jeans part!! Lol

Women wearing jeans and slacks and shirts designed for women is not the same as them wearing mens clothing.. They are not crossdressing... Hey..... Fashions change...

And what if wearing skirts and dresses were alowed for men?? It would certantly ruin the sport of crossdressing for me!! Hehe

Karren

[Tree GG]

Now you've done it... Got Tree GG all riled up!! Lol. But she's also right... Well mostly.. Except for the jeans part!! Lol.....




:devil::rofl: That and $4 will get you coffee at Starbucks :happy:

[Kate Simmons]

I agree with Tree, they are just clothes dangit. I can get satisfied with wearing a caftan BTW :heehee:. Anyway, I sometimes get confused by some that want to present as women and make people believe they are. I mean, what are they trying to accomplish? Okay, I'll admit that way back when I was trying to do the same thing but then I grew up a little. I no longer try to make people think I'm a woman, because, in all honesty, I think that is downright silly. It's just a fashion statement showing that as a guy I can look pretty when I want to but, hey, I AM a guy and don't try to deny it.
Some days I just want to be Richard and enjoy that but I never mix and match except when I get a hankering to be Eric, who is Sal in drab (but that is another "ball game" and part of my fun stuff). In any case, I don't ever have a problem being myself and if other people do, oh well--that's life! Society (by and large) can "kiss mah grits" (as Flo used to say) 'cause I ain't gonna stop being myself any time soon. The point is I have fun with it and never take it seriously. So, do I need anyone's permission or "acceptance"?--Nah, don't think so.:doll:;):happy:

[mellisa's wife]

I have to agree with Tree about woman not wearing "men's clothing" at time but are wearing "Work" clothes.

Today I painted my office..... wearing white jeans ( my painting 'uniform' ) and a blue tank top. These are my "work" clothes for doing messy chores. They are not my usual clothes but they do serve a purpose.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel bad for men - my husband especially - who are not "allowed" to wear skirts and dresses in front of the general public. He saves those for at home and also wears his "work clothes" when working.

In this part of the world.... I get strange looks when I go out in a skirt or anything "dressy"... .I always get asked "where am I going"....... so it's going to be a long while to ever have "femme men's clothing" accepted around here. At my house though.... it is the norm.

:2c:

[Karren H]

:devil::rofl: That and $4 will get you coffee at Starbucks :happy:

Since my doctor won't let me have any caffeine any more I'm sure glad you brought that up!!! Grrrrrrrrrr

:D

Karren

[bi_weird]

I would like to weigh in on this question from the FTM point of view.
If you're taking the simplistic definition that pants are mens clothes, then yes, women can wear them. But a lot of you have worn womens jeans. Can you tell me that's the same article of clothing as men's jeans? Or that you're allowed to wear them at work with the same ease as you get away with mens pants?
I live in the wonderful bubble that is a college campus, where I can get away with wearing just about everything. Thing is, I have to think about it once I want to leave campus to run errands. Can I wear a tie? (FYI I never pass as a guy) Am I feeling brave enough to know that I'll get looks and possibly harassed for it? At the same time, am I willing to compromise who I am to take off my guy's clothes to run errands.
This bubble doesn't just end at the edge of campus. Even if I stay on campus as a professor, some day I'll have to be a real grown up with a real job, at which point my guys clothes become unacceptable again. There's no way I could interview for a tenured professorship in men's clothing and have a chance at getting the job.
Yes, we're less likely to get harassed out on the street. That doesn't mean we can get away with it, though. A lot of you know the fear of being discovered wearing panties...we'll I've got the same one for boxers. It might be acceptable for me to wear a tie to class, but there's no way my friends would understand boxers, so I try really hard to make sure I'm not discovered. We are tolerated in liberal areas, but I'm from a small midwestern town and I promise I wouldn't be accepted there at all if I went home dressed the way I prefer.
There's more, but I'm late to class!

[christina marie]

im with Karren on this one. if it didnt annoy anyone, it just wouldnt be as much fun any more!

[Kerry Owens]

Women wearing slacks and a blouse are wearing clothing designed for a woman....we're not wearing Haggar slacks with a Arrow brand shirt, big difference there.
Now when I'm wearing a nice comfy pair of sweatpants with a t-shirt there the gender style is blurred. But still, folks what comprises a dress/Caftan and womens/mens styles is different all the world over everywhere. Why gripe?

Society has through out ages decreed and then changed it's mind, take style/fashion with a big grain of salt and being realistic,don't make mountains outta molehills.

[Priscilla Ann]

Count me as another who thinks if it were perfectly okay for me to wear women's clothes it wouldn't be near as much fun.

As for what women wear, I say let them wear whatever they want to.

[SL]

Oooookay. This is not about whether or not this or that is "fun".
The original post more or lest implicated that it was "easy" to CD as a man.
Bulls**t.
Because if that were the case you could do it and not be fired without lame and indirect reasons.
You would not need to worry about the 3 bio guys standing in a group watching your motions looking real hostile.
And you would not be waited on by the sales attendent while you were buying toothpaste who never said anything rude but held her lips tightly and performed that task perfunctorily and relaxed when you where gone.

This notion that there is some sort of "ease" takes into account only the existence of women who dress for fashion, or perhaps those do to "be outrageous" or "have a kick".
Completely denying the life of a person born in a certain body yet needing to live -ie make a living, function in society- as another sex.


And I'm not trying to be rude. Or "go off". Or be alienating to anyone. But I do want to mark the difference. And its just my personality to be direct.

[Ashly]

Back in the Golden Twenties women began fighting for wearing pants instead of skirt and dresses. One of the famous figures those days was Marlene Dietrich. She wore a men's suit with tie to some occasions...what an outcry !!!
During WWII women had to work in factories for the war machine...they couldn't wear skirts to do the job..they got the rights to wear pants.

You can wear whatever you like in public as long as it is not exposing something which is against the law..You might get some laughs..maybe a redneck wants to punch you and maybe your wife doesn't like it. In the end it is up to you how far you want to go..Somebody has to start the movement or it well never happen.

[Tree GG]

Since my doctor won't let me have any caffeine any more I'm sure glad you brought that up!!! Grrrrrrrrrr

:D

Karren

Now that's really a "Life's not fair" moment! :sad:

[Linda C]

Do you think that you would be as into it if Cding wasn't so taboo? If it was accepted in society there would be many more Cd'ers and the fun level would decrease(for me at least.) :happy:

[Marla S]

Most has already been said, best by Tree and Salandra, nevertheless I'd like to give my :2c:



CDers aren't just wearing clothes, which the majority of women wearing a suit & tie (which is the only thing I personally would classify as "men's" clothes) isn't trying to make the world believe she is a man. It's simple clothing-fashion. CDers are trying to get society to believe they are a woman (in general, not all CDers of course).
That is a crucial point IMO and that's the point where FTMs get trouble too.
There might be a asymmetry but here is no double standard.




Caftans worn in the Middle East & Africa are technically dresses. Kilts are skirts. But would a CDer wear either of those & be satisfied that they crossdressed? Majority has spoken no as it is not labelled as "women's wear" so does not achieve the desired result. But it's still a dress or a skirt so men around the world CAN wear what you may consider women's clothes and be perfectly acceptable in their society.
Second very important point to consider.
It is the symbolic value (label, story, association) that counts not the shape or technical aspect.
Best example is probably a bra. This seems to have a very high symbolic power for a lot of CDs, but most technically don't need one, like FTMs technically don't need boxers with a fly.

Like be_weird pointed out, same trouble here for FTMs and MTFs too.


Levi jeans were originated as rugged work clothing for the mines. Not necessarily men's wear - work wear. It just happened at the time that it was socially unacceptable for women to work in the mines.
Yep, but this made it men's wear because it was made for men, and it didn't just happen.
Otherwise it should be perfectly fine for a steward to wear skirts, because skirts are the work wear for flight attendands, which are and have been predominately women.

Here is where the 'unfairness' starts.
Men's wear is fairly easy, and willingly adapted for women's fashion (it becomes women's fashion then and isn't male clothes anymore), adapting women's fashion for men is a big NO-NO.
Fashion journals proudly announce almost every season the new masculine or dandy-style for women (usually followed by the new feminine style in the next issue ;)).
BUT I never ever read about the new feminine or diva-style for men.

Baseline: Women usually don't wear men's clothes (most that I see don't), but masculinity is an accepted and sometimes promoted attribute of women's fashion (same with hair styles and everything else).
In contrast feminity is not an accepted attribute of men's fashion. Here is the double standard.
In contrast to women a feminine man has no other chance than to buy women's clothes, if he wants to express femininity and/or tries to avoid the usual masculine image (he becomes a CD then).

I think this is an expression how differently femininity and masculinity are valued in our society

[GACountrygal]

You can wear whatever you like in public as long as it is not exposing something which is against the law..

EXACTLY!!! :thumbsup:


Ok, I'll weigh in on my point.

For the most part, I wear mens jeans. Could that technically be "crossdressing" ? maybe for someone else but not me?? But its for practical reasons. Mens jeans are cheaper and I can get them long enough without having to look like I'm waiting for a flood! :heehee: I dont wear mens jeans to look like a guy (although I might in the right moment from behind wearing a ballcap, tshirt and workboots :p) I wear em because I simply CANNOT justify spending $10 more on a pair of womens jeans while I'm still bouncing between sizes. Most of the time I wear womens tops, or genderless t-shirts. For me its comfort and practicality!!:D

[Marla S]

Ok, I'll weigh in on my point.

For the most part, I wear mens jeans. Could that technically be "crossdressing" ? maybe for someone else but not me?? But its for practical reasons. Mens jeans are cheaper and I can get them long enough without having to look like I'm waiting for a flood! :heehee: I dont wear mens jeans to look like a guy (although I might in the right moment from behind wearing a ballcap, tshirt and workboots :p) I wear em because I simply CANNOT justify spending $10 more on a pair of womens jeans while I'm still bouncing between sizes. Most of the time I wear womens tops, or genderless t-shirts. For me its comfort and practicality!!:D
That's interesting and technically it is crossdressing ... or better it would be, if a man would argue along the same line.

Your advantage is that you predominately have to bother about the price. A man predominately has to bother about the label and usually would spend 50 bugs more just to avoid the impression of being somewhat weird.
That could become the entrance to the closet. Once you are in there a lot of strange things can happen to you :straightface:

[Kate Simmons]

Face it Nic, you gals can "guy up" on all the clothes you want. Most of us, on our best days, could not hold a candle to the femininty you gals have, even if you dressed like hobos. It's about way more than the clothes and we all know it.:heehee::happy:

[Sweet Jane]

I never like the "woe is me" type of thread, where we lament about the perceived injustices of society.

I have read the other responses, and there is a big difference between presenting as the opposite gender, and wearing similar clothes styled for your gender. If thats what you want to do, purchase a kilt, or one of the many South Pacific Island mens skirt like clothes, and present as a man.

For many of us here the issue is bigger than just wearing some clothes of the opposite gender, its about reassigning gender. For others its a bit of a hoot to just push a societal norm, and then theres probably people fitting all points between (and maybe some off each extreme as well!)

Lamenting about what is acceptable to one gender or the other does nothing to alter anything...it most certainly doesn't empower you, infact you end up victimising yourself.

In this life its best to concentrate on the things you can control or change, and ignore the things that you cannot. You, me and Nelson Mandela are not enough to change societies ingrained perceptions of people who blur the gender lines, but you can dress and enjoy yourself........its not illegal, so do it.

[Ruth]

This is a really difficult one and I think Marla S had it better than anyone else. But the trouble is, we've all come to CDing from our own special places. CDing fulfils a need, but it is not necessarily the same one for all, so we're not all being in the same place when we CD. The man/woman dichotomy is a simplification and is not truly applicable to many of us.
I mostly try to dress as a passable woman so I can go out in public in the clothes I like, but the person I want to be is not a woman. It's me.

[vivianann]

I believe we have freedom to dress how we like, women can wear what they want to, and some of them look great in pants especially when it shows their curves. I think we are too scared to express our fashion statement. there is no law saying a man cannot wear a skirt as long as it does not expose any private parts, we need to show some modesty when we do wear femme attire so society does not get overly freaked out about cder's wearing a dress or skirt. I for one want the body shape and look of a female, it is more than just the clothes, when I do go out enfeme I do my best to wear modest dresses and skirt and blouses. sometimes I wear a short skirt, but it is mid thigh, and I wear short skirts only to parties and clubs, but never to go shopping, I wear knee length dresses or skirts, and sometimes ladies dress pants, and I do not wear revealing tops. The GG's here have a very good point. any way becareful when dressed in femme clothing, and have fun and be smart about how you present yourself.

[teresa jeen]

for me, when im at work it would be very difficuly to pass any way, just panties and pantyhose in winter. but when im home i like tanks and shorts w/bra and spare boobs!! that way while doing chores i tend to feel like a woman with the homely nurturing feelings.

[Sharon]

I wear female clothing all the time and no one has yet to tell me I was breaking some rule. The only rules are the ones we impose on ourselves.

That aside, women fought a few generations ago for the right to wear what you must consider male clothing. Look it up sometime -- women in slacks were once ridiculed and reviled. What have you done to gain the same acceptance?

[GACountrygal]

Face it Nic, you gals can "guy up" on all the clothes you want. Most of us, on our best days, could not hold a candle to the femininty you gals have, even if you dressed like hobos. It's about way more than the clothes and we all know it.:heehee::happy:

:heehee: gee that sounds like me right about now!!! still in PJ's :p:D

[noname]

Oh my word, here we are again. Here are a few facts some people don't like, but undeniable.

Fact: Women are allowed to wear what they want.

Fact: Men are not.

Fact: Anyone who tries to appear as the opposite gender will generally not be accepted.

I find it upsetting when GG's make the claim that it's different because they do not try to appear or pass as a guy. I don't try to pass or appear as a female. Yet a denim skirt, tennis shoes, and basic t-shirt does not fly. Let me know when I can apply for a job wear ing a skirt or makeup and stand a resonable chance of getting hired.

/ Believes in the equality of everyone

[Marla S]

That aside, women fought a few generations ago for the right to wear what you must consider male clothing. Look it up sometime -- women in slacks were once ridiculed and reviled. What have you done to gain the same acceptance?
That's a valid, but not a completely true argument.
Women not really fought for 'wear what they want' in the first instance, they had more fundamental problems.
The slacks part had a lot to do with wars.
When men have been to and died in the big wars of the 20th century someone had to run plants.
Here is where the work wear comes into play ... pants ... and got accepted as women's wear along the way.

Except for going out it is hard for me to imagine what men could fight for to become accepted wearing skirts or dresses along the way, except for the general right to feminity.
Hard to imagine that this could become a big movement.

[Sharon]

That's a valid, but not a completely true argument.


Actually, it is correct. I'm not talking female factory workers during WWII, I'm talking about those female individuals before and after the war who had the nerve to dress in slacks. Do a websearch on Katherine Hepburn sometime, although she was hardly the first to be ridiculed in the press.

[Marla S]

Actually, it is correct. I'm not talking female factory workers during WWII, I'm talking about those female individuals before and after the war who had the nerve to dress in slacks. Do a websearch on Katherine Hepburn sometime, although she was hardly the first to be ridiculed in the press.
I don't disagree and I know that, but it wasn't Katherine Hepburn, Marlene Dietrich plus a few others that changed the mind of the society. Here are quite a few that dare too to 'break the rules'. They are not as famous though, they only CD.

Anyway, it is a bit pointless to moan about asymmetry, but I think it is interesting to think about why that is and what it tells.
The only thing we can do is to go out. Some have the nerves and become ridiculed or not, some had, others prepare themselves for it, others never will do and have good reasons for it.

[KimberlyS]

Why is it that a woman can wear a men's clothes, but when a guy wears women's clothes he is not accepted by society?

#1: Life is not fair get use to it and move on.

#2: Most CDers mean pants/jeans when they talk about the male clothes gals can wear. Well:

First fashions change. Men use to wear gowns and dresses just like the women. And at one time they were very fancy, frilly and lacy.

Second go back and read your history. Man went to war and woman went to the factories to work in place of men and they wore work jeans like the men. They earned the right to wear them and what ever they want.

Third, look at a gal in a tight pair of jeans showing off her curves. You will not be able to tell me those jeans were made for a man. Guys would be talking it very high voices if they wore some of the jeans gals do.

I am a CDer but I no longer wear female/womans clothes. I wear feminine or femme clothes that I like. Where you get them it does not matter. It is ok for guys to like feminine clothes.

It all depends on how you look at it.

Tree, great post.

[battybattybats]

When I indulge my male side, my enjoyment of wearing male clothes, the male clothes I like to wear are often very old fashioned.

In fact, most of my favourite male clothes are womens clothes. Fashions that over a hundred years ago were mens clothes but the ones I own were made for women to wear. Most of my darted vests, loose white cotton shirts both with and without lace cuffs or panels, knee-high flat soled or slightly heeled boots, cloaks, several pants even.

Most of the mens clothes that were for centuries mens clothes that are comfortable to wear, dramatic and ostentatious yet tasteful.. all the clothes that I feel good wearing as a male, all are now womens clothes and very hard to get as mens.

If I were to go and look through every local shop for mens clothes 99% or more will be ugly, conformist, square, blocky, shape disguising, monotonous and downright repellant. Even in a rural town I could find a decent mens outfit for myself with not much trouble using only womens clothes from womens stores. One that looks a darn sight better, fits better, shows off shape more and has more individuality and self expression.

Now while it is true that wearing womens clothes for a mens look doesn't fully satisfy my need to crossdress, still wearing those clothes that were sewn for me as mens clothes from historical mens fashions from luxurient materials involving no womens garments at all does help alleviate the strength of my need to crossdress! Some part of my crossdressing involves just wearing nice sensual and comfortable clothes. Another part involves blurring or crossing over gender lines. Some days I just want a bit of androgeny, others to apear female. Some days I just want to feel comfortable and look good as a male.

I think the degree of clothing freedom women have over men is a serious issue, its a form of sexism and sexist repression and does effect crossdressers. Just because some or even all crossdressers might want to still fully dress as a woman after wearing skirts or lace panties became acceptable for men doesn't mean we cant or shouldn't feel personally slighted by the fact that we have to wear ugly, uncomfortable, restrictive and monotonous garbage to appear male. Suits are a form of repression. Where acceptable personal expression involves a pattern on a tie, black brown or navy blue on a suit that turns human shapes into variations on the rectangle, dull shirts with maybe some thin stripes or tiny dots or painfully garish colours for the occassional 'zany' option or choosing between a limited series of mass-produced logos splashed across an otherwise identical mass of t-shirts.

The only crossdressers that aren't effected by the shameful and oppressive state of acceptable male fashion are those that dress in womens clothes 24/7 (or want to). Those of us who choose to, need to or like to dress as a male too should be able to wear whatever we want as men.

It might not make crossdressing go away or be acceptable but the gender disparity exists and it is wrong.

[noname]

I think the degree of clothing freedom women have over men is a serious issue

I read somewhere that at no point in history has mens clothing been so restrictive as it is now. I firmly believe it as well.

[mncrossdress]

WOW,

I really did not intended to start something, but I guess I am glad that I did. So, here is my 2 cents. First, I dress because I have to, not because I want to. Having been a crossdresser for years, I have learned a lot about myself and life. When I first began, I was scared and felt awkward. As life progressed, it became a part of my life. Then, the internet came along and totally changed my life. I finally learned that I was not alone in all of this. While society's view is changing in many ways, crossdressing is still one that is not generally accepted. Sure, I can wear whatever I want, but I still have to put up with the ridicule and looks and comments.

The one thing that I have truly began to realize is that there are many many people that are okay with crossdressing. It also seems that the younger part of society has become more open minded towards people. (before you flag me for the "younger part of society" comment, I apologize if I am offending people, but I am in my 40's).

With this being said, it would be wonderful to be able to wear whatever I want wherever I want. See, part of me does not look at dressing as fun, because is is not accepted. Dressing for me is a necessity. Plus, womens (juniors) clothes fit me perfect. Having a smaller body than the typical male, I also find that clothes do not fit right, unless they are like a size 9. LOL.

Well, to close, I just want the clothes that I want and to be able to wear them where ever I wish when I want to. Maybe someday I will see this happen.

[Ashly]

....

Fact: Women are allowed to wear what they want.

Fact: Men are not.

Fact: Anyone who tries to appear as the opposite gender will generally not be accepted.........

You are allowed to wear anything you like..period!
It is you and only you who can make it..accepted...period

[Diannna]

Well, here is my 2 cents worth. I know and accept who and what I am, and as much as I would like society to just accept me, I know in my heart that it is a long long time coming. I also at one time complained too, WHY! But I think if you really look at it, most women who wear mens (or mens type) clothing is usually for convience or plain comfort in doing what it is they're doing. They aren'y wearing male type clothing to be male, AND if you ever notice, girls seem to even look better then us males when they wear our clothes. I wonder why that is? Couldn't have anything to do with that beautiful female shape, now could it! Yes I have to agree with Tree. When we wear female clothing whether it be skirts, dresses, jeans or shorts, we just don't look the same, and we're sure not wearing all that stuff for the shear comfort. Now don't get me wrong ........... there are some of you out there that I only wish I could look as good as you, but that is not so for the majority of us. Hummmmmm! I don't know if I got to where it was I was trying to go with this, but I'm sure you catch my drift. So my 2 cents worth turned into a dimes worth. Sorry!

[Satrana]

Baseline: Women usually don't wear men's clothes (most that I see don't), but masculinity is an accepted and sometimes promoted attribute of women's fashion (same with hair styles and everything else).
In contrast feminity is not an accepted attribute of men's fashion. Here is the double standard.
In contrast to women a feminine man has no other chance than to buy women's clothes, if he wants to express femininity and/or tries to avoid the usual masculine image (he becomes a CD then).


Spot on. The issue is not about men's and women's clothes as these vary over time, but about the degree of perceived masculinity and femininity on display. Western women's fashions now incorporate a high degree of masculinity so that women can get close to a FTM without triggering comment, but step over the final hurdle and they will get abuse. Male fashion allows virtually no femininity. Even the smallest concession like the wrong type of fabric or color can step over the line.


I think the degree of clothing freedom women have over men is a serious issue, its a form of sexism and sexist repression and does effect crossdressers
That is the most important point. It is not the lament about double standards but rather the recognition that male fashion is restrictive sexism designed to keep men within a narrow confined gender definition. Step outside the norms and you are no longer a "real man" and will be discriminated against both personally and professionally. The dress code is a manifestation of the overall restrictions men face in society and the confined scripted role men must follow.

IMO those who insist that their partners spend must spend man time as a "real man" wearing only male clothes are unconsciously expressing a sexist mindset which believes in the restrictive male role. It is a form of oppression. If a man were to insist that his wife was a real woman only when she wore a dress and heels and demanded that she spent most of her time in such an outfit, then the sexism is clear.

Unfortunately double standards abound in our society but that does not mean we should turn a blind eye to discrimination or be supportive of it. I hope in the years to come as more cds come out of the closet that we will raise others' consciousness that men are the victims of sexism as well and that these attitudes should be addressed in the same manner that traditional male sexism towards women has been highlighted and attacked. The sexist attitudes of male fashion is symbolic of the overall sexism men have to operate under.

[Satrana]

Actually, it is correct. I'm not talking female factory workers during WWII, I'm talking about those female individuals before and after the war who had the nerve to dress in slacks. Do a websearch on Katherine Hepburn sometime, although she was hardly the first to be ridiculed in the press.

It is true that high profile, high society women helped the cause somewhat, but in reality the average woman on the street could not copy this, they were still 100% confined to skirts and dresses. So their effect was very limited just as say Eddie Izzard or David Bowie have had no impact on men's fashions.

This issue others have raised about the WWII factory workers affecting woman's fashion is totally incorrect. WWII was a special case and everyone knew it. When the war ended the men returned and took back their jobs, women returned to being housewives and were again 100% confined to skirts and dresses. Indeed the two decades after WWII were the epitomy of femininity with a return to petticoats, corsets and tight pencil skirts. It was more feminine than pre-WWII fashion trends.

It was not until the liberal 1960s and the temporary blurring of gender fashions that ordinary women could routinely wear jeans and slacks. Unfortunately men did not hang onto their fashion advances and returned to drab male clothing by the end of the 1970s but women did keep theirs due to the increasing influence of the feminist movement which denounced femininity as pandering to male sexual desire.

By the 1980s women were increasingly entering the workplace and fighting for higher positions and power suits became vogue. The feminist line was in order to compete with men, women had to act and look like men. By the mid 1980s the "unisex" trend opened the floodgates, "unisex' being nothing more than a cover for women's fashion wholesale adaptation of every male garment. No female garment became unisex for men to wear.

Women's fashions largely reflect their changing social role and their increasing gender freedoms. In contrast men's social and gender roles have remained static reflected in the continuing conformity of men's fashions.

Fashion does not operate by itself in isolation, instead it reflects what is happening in society. Until society truly agrees that it is ok and indeed preferable that men express "feminine" feelings and desires, then feminine clothes will continue to be off-limits.

[Cai]

I find it upsetting when GG's make the claim that it's different because they do not try to appear or pass as a guy. I don't try to pass or appear as a female. Yet a denim skirt, tennis shoes, and basic t-shirt does not fly. Let me know when I can apply for a job wear ing a skirt or makeup and stand a resonable chance of getting hired.

/ Believes in the equality of everyone

I'm all for equality too. I feel like you should be able to show up at a job interview in makeup and get hired. However, as an FtM, I wouldn't be able to go to a job interview in a men's suit and tie and still get the job.

One of my activities at college is something called Forensic Speaking. We compete in a fairly conservative circuit, and have to get dressed up (suit) in order to compete. You can't tell me that my suit jacket, with darts and a waist, is the same as a men's jacket, nor would it not be noticed if I tried to wear a men's jacket. In fact, I've had comments (on my scorecards, no less!) that I should be wearing a skirt because it would look dressier than pants. I've had friends who got similar comments for their extremely short haircuts.

However, I also agree with the comments that whatever you wear is as acceptable as you make it. I've seen stories from CDers here who do go out in a jean skirt and tennis shoes without trying to pass. Nobody stoned them. Most big cities, I'd bet you could get away with wearing almost anything.

[valery]

Hey,

Why is it that a woman can wear a men's clothes, but when a guy wears women's clothes he is not accepted by society?

Just a thought!

It's all about social situation and status and our cognitions based on education, experience and history.

Just to recall - full suffrage for women (active and passiv):
USA 1920 / UK 1928 / France 1946 / Germany 1919 / Italy 1946

At the time when girls started wearing trousers they put themselves into a stronger social position by doing that, with the idea (revolution) to annoy the males and also the conservative females to fight for a new girl-power and the claim for new rights. That was the superficial basement behind that and also the reason for the negative reaction at that time, as it was still a mens-world.
So it was less a transgender thing at that time and because of that it's still not for the public today.

As someone before took the example of Marlene Dietrich wearing trousers and mens suits:
She was born 1901 and 1927 she was on the top of her carrier so it was primarily about the social status of women but ahead of the times - as written before ordinary women were still dressing the traditional way.
Marlene used this to provoke the society that was total conservative about the position and the rights of women. And as we still all know her name - it was also a big advertising PR-thing behind all that to push up her career. So the thing that women later started to wear mens clothes had more to do with her social position and the fight for equality. Also things like working in factories helped to change this picture and now after all those years it's normal , especially after fashion had jumped on that train very early .

And that's the only reason why it's easier for the FtM, because it's a normal picture for everybody and not eye-catching, although it can have the transgender aspect. So they have a nearly perfekt magic cap.

If there would have been a similar history, cultural thing for the MtF (look scotland, no problem with a skirt) it could be nearly the same for the MtF but not absolutely the same as the world still has the picture that a man is stronger than a woman because he is naturally physical stronger. So many people will find it much more easy to deal with the idea of someone who wants to become stronger(FtM), than the idea of the opposite.

in our days advertising is allready working with androgynous because it's a eye catcher, so maybe one day our turn will come, I hope so.

[janet1234]

Excellent point Karren, I wonder if I would Xdress if Xdressing were totally common, I don't know, I just don't know. But since it wont happen, I am happy and content to CD. It is obviously a psychological thing that I could not possibly answer. Love my boobs.

[Ashly]

......
However, I also agree with the comments that whatever you wear is as acceptable as you make it. I've seen stories from CDers here who do go out in a jean skirt and tennis shoes without trying to pass. Nobody stoned them. Most big cities, I'd bet you could get away with wearing almost anything.
I agree on that 100%. Here in Miami you can wear almost anything...Down on South Beach the anything becomes fashion.

[kerensa]

I spend 90% of the time in female clothing even though most of it is jeans, trousers,trackie bottoms and tops just knowing that all my clothes are in female sizes is enough for me, the only trouble i find is most female tops are really short and sometimes i dont realise that my pierced navel is showing

[JoAnnDallas]

If you closely at history, we men used to be able to wear fem clothing everyday and it was not only common but made fashion statements. Back in the 1700's and ealry 1800's men used to wear

Wigs
Makeup (foundation, blush, lipstick, powder)
nail polish
Lacy Slik Clothing
High heel shoes (2-3" heels)

Sometime in the 1800's mens fashion radically changed to what we now wear.

[Toyah]

It really does not bother me and is not really true. Our boys on the forum have I am sure just as much trouble with acceptance as you all do maybe even more. Acceptance is such an odd term when I pose the question would you accept nudists or someone who wants to wear nappys you all get stroppy but its exactly the same thing

[Marla S]

If you closely at history, we men used to be able to wear fem clothing everyday and it was not only common but made fashion statements. Back in the 1700's and ealry 1800's men used to wear

Wigs
Makeup (foundation, blush, lipstick, powder)
nail polish
Lacy Slik Clothing
High heel shoes (2-3" heels)

Sometime in the 1800's mens fashion radically changed to what we now wear.
Nah, not a good argument. There has been a distinct difference in men's and women's fashion too.
What would you have wanted to wear in 1677 ?
This
Men's fashion (http://www.costumes.org/history/17thcent/mensfashionplates/courtierfulldresswinter1677.jpg)
or that
Women's fashion (http://www.costumes.org/history/17thcent/womensfashplates/ladyfittedwinter1677.jpg)

There is a difference !
But what is true that men's fashion has been by far more decorative than the men's uniformism today.

[JoAnnDallas]

Marla S.........You have a point, but in todays fashions, mens fashion of 1677 would be very fem. Point I was looking at was men back then could wear makeup, wigs, high heels and it was total proper wear for a man. Today if I went out wearing a wig, makeup, high heels as a man, I would be ridiculed and mabey even attacked.
Back then these were men's fashions, today it's womans's fashions.

[Sheila]

I wear female clothing all the time and no one has yet to tell me I was breaking some rule. The only rules are the ones we impose on ourselves.

That aside, women fought a few generations ago for the right to wear what you must consider male clothing. Look it up sometime -- women in slacks were once ridiculed and reviled. What have you done to gain the same acceptance?
Well said Sharon:iagree:

[Marcie Sexton]

Well put Ruth...EXACTLY how I feel...sometimes less is more...:2c:

[Marla S]

Marla S.........You have a point, but in todays fashions, mens fashion of 1677 would be very fem. Point I was looking at was men back then could wear makeup, wigs, high heels and it was total proper wear for a man. Today if I went out wearing a wig, makeup, high heels as a man, I would be ridiculed and mabey even attacked.
Back then these were men's fashions, today it's womans's fashions.
Right.
My point is everybody is able to wear everything (i.e.I am able to wear heels too, even a bra). There is nothing like a wig or skirt gene that would force me to do it or not.

But whether you are ridiculed or not for wearing things you are able to wear, depends solely on the social meaning and associations here, and now, and within a specific culture.
The same holds true for things we like to wear or not (How many CDs would wear hosiery if it would still be a part of men's fashion ???).

So looking in the past or different cultures (i.e. caftan, kilt) is interesting, but doesn't help.

On the other side it would be interesting to think about if a less narrowly defined male role within the society (including fashion and decorative elements) would decrease the wish of some CDs to feel like, mimic, or become a women.

[Ashly]

..... My point is everybody is able to wear everything ........

Soo right !!! Just do it..then after we got accepted wearing long hair...earrings...bracelets...we wear skirts :)

[Jamie001]

This is the problem in a nutshell. Most crossdressers go from complete female mode to complete male mode with no in-between and therefore it is impossible for them to ever gain acceptance. On the other hand, I am a Gender-F... and wear whatever I want in male mode. In my opinion, if you ever hope to get crossdressing accepted, you have to push the envelope by wearing some very obviously female items in male mode. If anyone asks you about these female items, simple tell them that "you like it". The question is: "Are you girl-enough to do this?"

Jamie




[/SIZE]
Well said Sharon:iagree:

[Deanna2]

Hey I love this thread.

My first response is that life wasn't meant to be fair and men and women aren't equal in many more ways than just clothing.

Then I got to thinking that maybe we could all go back to Roman times when men wore togas and short ones at that. You can still get the image if you go to the Coliseum in Rome. They have guys there parading around as Roman soldiers wearing togas. Just imagine being paid to go to work and wearing a skirt all day and every day.

[Satrana]

Men have always dressed decoratively right from the beginning of civilization, often more so than women. We cds have the misfortune to be alive at a time of a strange abnormality in human history - bland, uniform male fashion.

I would also suggest that the greater the discrepancy between men's and women's fashions, ie one being bland and the other decorative, the greater the "jealousy", and the more crossdressing will take place. This site would be much, much smaller if men could freely wear feminine clothing since the term crossdressing would not have any real meaning as already reflected in the gg world. So it is really this weird anomaly of bland masculine fashion contrasted against highly expressive feminine fashion that has greatly contributed to the crossdressing phenomenon.

Feminine fashion is so much more interesting, exciting and sensual that the only reason why all men are not adopting feminine styles is because of the great fear of homosexuality/sissification which strips men of their status and earning capacity.

[Cai]

life wasn't meant to be fair

Yep.

[Rachel Morley]

Why is it that a woman can wear a men's clothes, but when a guy wears women's clothes he is not accepted by society?

Just a thought!
Here's a copy and paste of something I've posted many times on this subject from my personal point of view.

We can (technically) wear anything we like, there is no law against it. However, unlike women, we haven't yet earned the right to wear whatever we want....not if you want to be socially accepted. In the past women were "not allowed" to wear all sorts of mascucline clothes. I'm talking 100 years ago here. They were expected (because of men) to wear corsets, dresses, etc etc....pants and trousers were frowned upon. It wasn't until the women's movement fought for their rights by getting out there and being seen....they made it happen.

IMHO it's going to be the same for us. We (me included) have to get out there in our dresses and be seen for what we are....transgendered. It's not going to be an easy ride, and we are going to have to take some risks, but if ultimately, we are going to get accepted more in society then people have to know about us. It's up to us to educate them that we are harmless individuals and we are not to be feared...despite what they may perceive.

We have one additional thing that we have to deal with, and that is the social hierarchy within our society. When a woman dresses in a way that is perceived to be masculine it's not considered a problem because she's going "up the scale". However, when a man dresses in a way that is perceived to be feminine it is a problem because (especially amongst other men) he's lowering himself because in their eyes dressing feminine is being less of a man, and being less of a man is considered a bad thing.

Now, obviously I'm generalizing about the public at large, and not everyone thinks this way, but IMHO the only way we will ever be truly accepted is when women truly get an equal status in society with men. Why hasn't there ever been a female US President? Where are all the female military Generals? Am I making any sense here? The key to it being accepted is the empowerment of women. That’s why all cders should be interested in women’s issues and leveling the playing field instead of complaining that it’s not fair. I'll get off my soap box now. :sb:

[Jamie001]

Rachel,

You hit the polished nail right on the head! In order to make progress regarding acceptance we need to get out there and be seen. There is one big difference between women and us:

The women that started wearing men's clothing were not trying to pretend that they are men and were not trying to pass as men. Most crossdressers try to pass as women. Some of them are successful, while most are not successful. This is the real problem that is faced by crossdressers. I believe that to gain acceptance, we need to push the envelope in male mode. For example, we need to wear feminine earrings, nail polish, have shaved legs, but still present as a man. This is exactly what women did to gain their acceptance. Then one day, society may be ready to accept full-on crossdressers.

I really believe that this is the only way that crossdressers will ever gain acceptance. We must push the envelope in male mode just as women have done and currently do. Unfortunately, most crossdressers have two modes: "either completely feminine and trying to pass as a women, or completely male without any fem accessories". I believe that crossdressers should try to find a middle-ground by incorporating fem items into their normally drab male look. This will force slow acceptance in the same manner that women did many years ago. :2c:

Jamie



Here's a copy and paste of something I've posted many times on this subject from my personal point of view.

We can (technically) wear anything we like, there is no law against it. However, unlike women, we haven't yet earned the right to wear whatever we want....not if you want to be socially accepted. In the past women were "not allowed" to wear all sorts of mascucline clothes. I'm talking 100 years ago here. They were expected (because of men) to wear corsets, dresses, etc etc....pants and trousers were frowned upon. It wasn't until the women's movement fought for their rights by getting out there and being seen....they made it happen.

IMHO it's going to be the same for us. We (me included) have to get out there in our dresses and be seen for what we are....transgendered. It's not going to be an easy ride, and we are going to have to take some risks, but if ultimately, we are going to get accepted more in society then people have to know about us. It's up to us to educate them that we are harmless individuals and we are not to be feared...despite what they may perceive.

We have one additional thing that we have to deal with, and that is the social hierarchy within our society. When a woman dresses in a way that is perceived to be masculine it's not considered a problem because she's going "up the scale". However, when a man dresses in a way that is perceived to be feminine it is a problem because (especially amongst other men) he's lowering himself because in their eyes dressing feminine is being less of a man, and being less of a man is considered a bad thing.

Now, obviously I'm generalizing about the public at large, and not everyone thinks this way, but IMHO the only way we will ever be truly accepted is when women truly get an equal status in society with men. Why hasn't there ever been a female US President? Where are all the female military Generals? Am I making any sense here? The key to it being accepted is the empowerment of women. That’s why all cders should be interested in women’s issues and leveling the playing field instead of complaining that it’s not fair. I'll get off my soap box now. :sb:

[Jere Oneil]

Women do wear "women's jeans and slacks, and it is definitely not crossdressing, but a GG can also go into a men's clothing store, pick out a pair of men's slacks or jeans and ask the the clerk if she can try them on before buying and she is not seen in the same way as a man doing the same thing in a women's clothing store. Pick 100 people at random, put them in a TV studio or something and give then those little boxes that some game shows use for audience voting: then have two people come out on stage, a woman and a man and have the woman say that she likes wearing men's jeans because she thinks they feel better or something. Th en have the man say the same thing about the ladies' jeans he is wearing. Then have the audience vote on which one is "wierd, A the woman or B the man. I would bet the results would be about 75 to 25 or more that the man is a wierdo. This doesn't even come close to what the results would be if the man chose to wear a simple denim skirt because it is "more comfortable. One other thing. Go into any lingerie department and look at all of the "boy shorts". Does anyone know of a men's wear store where I can go and buy some "girl briefs"? A girl can have her "work clothes" ,but ' I do some house work. and I don't think that a maid's uniform would be seen as "just my "work clothes". This just the way things are, for now at least. Society just doesn't see things the same way for men and women. it isn't only clothing, but other things as well. I am an avid league bowler. Several years ago, they started allowing women to bowl in the men's state tournament, (they were forced to allow it so the women wouldn't be discriminated against). but as a man, I'm not allowed to bowl in the women's state tournament. Again, this is "one way equality". I'm not against equal rights for everyone, but equality should go both ways.

[Ashly]

.... In order to make progress regarding acceptance we need to get out there and be seen. There is one big difference between women and us:

The women that started wearing men's clothing were not trying to pretend that they are men and were not trying to pass as men. Most crossdressers try to pass as women. Some of them are successful, while most are not successful. This is the real problem that is faced by crossdressers. I believe that to gain acceptance, we need to push the envelope in male mode. For example, we need to wear feminine earrings, nail polish, have shaved legs, but still present as a man.

That is exactly true !!! I never tried to pass as female, because I don't have the body/face to do so. I don't even know if i wanted to..maybe if I would have known with 20 what I know now, I would have gone for a change. Personally, I am more interested in going out in a skirt and other female clothes. So far, I never got any negative comments ..just the opposite ...usually from females. I am not going so far to say, I am accepted..but is that important ?

Don't get me wrong here...if you like to go out to pass as female, please do so.

[Charlene Ogden]

I think it's simply that until a few decades ago, women have been thought of as the softer, more submissive sex. Therefore, it's ok for them to toughen up by wearing men's clothes.
Men, on the other hand, are testosterone driven, hairy beasts who have traditionally taken care of women. They, in a sense, are coming from a position of higher social standing than women( don't forget that women were only allowed to vote in our country in the not to distant past). Hence, men traditionally have been thought of as the stronger and dominant sex.
In the eyes of most people in our society, if a man dresses like a woman he is, in effect, bringing himself down to the lesser social standing of women and therefore weakening himself rather than strengthening himself.
Now, of course, this is all rubbish in our eyes as members of the CD community. In today's world, we realize the physical differences between the sexes but also realize that women have shouldered as great a responsibility in the world and can endure greater physical pain than men.
We are, however, still living in the shadows of what was once deemed normal social standing. We are still living with our parents ideals of what is right and wrong.

[Cindi Johnson]

This argument, that females wearing male clothes are accepted by society, but not so for males, is in my opinion bogus.

Women rarely, maybe never, crossdress in the way that term is actually meant. Crossdressing (or transvestism) does not mean simply wearing clothes of the opposite sex. Be honest, we male crossdressers want to, for an hour or a day or a week, or longer, assume a female role; that's what crossdressing is all about. Women who wear men's jeans are not attempting to assume a male role.

So, it sounds foolish to those outside of our community when we make this "fairness" argument, and rightly so.

If we only want to wear a skirt, we could buy a kilt, couldn't we? I know that I, for one, would never don a kilt, even though I wear skirts very often, in public. I would never feel comfortable as a man wearing a kilt; I feel very comfortable as a transgendered person wearing women's dress and assuming a female persona.

Crossdressing is a form of transgenderism. IMHO it is not just about wearing a certain article of clothing.

Cindi Johnson

[Satrana]

Be honest, we male crossdressers want to, for an hour or a day or a week, or longer, assume a female role; that's what crossdressing is all about. Women who wear men's jeans are not attempting to assume a male role. Not true. Some CDs like to emulate women, many do not. Many only partially dress, many never adopt female names, many don't bother shaving off facial hair, many integrate male and female clothing together. Your description may fit you and some others but in no way describes the whole crossdressing community. Also there are female crossdressers who are seeking to assume a male role.


I feel very comfortable as a transgendered person wearing women's dress and assuming a female persona. Crossdressing is a form of transgenderism. IMHO it is not just about wearing a certain article of clothing. You are assuming that crossdressing is only about transgenderism. It is not. Some crossdress because they love the look of the clothes, some because it is a sexual fetish, some because they want escapism, some because they like the thrill of doing something taboo, some because they are gay and want to attract men, some because it provides a job (drag queens), some because it relaxes them, some because women's clothes feel nicer to wear and are more comfortable and so on.

There are many, many reasons why people crossdress. When a woman decides to put on a male piece of clothing, she is still crossdressing and you have no idea why she has chosen to. It could be one of the reasons listed above, or another one entirely. We each have our own personal reasons why we would want to crossdress and it is wrong to assume that everyone else has the same reason as our own.

[noname]

Men have always dressed decoratively right from the beginning of civilization, often more so than women. We cds have the misfortune to be alive at a time of a strange abnormality in human history - bland, uniform male fashion

I know I've often wondered if I'm not so much of a cd as a guy who like to peacock by dressing flashy.


Feminine fashion is so much more interesting, exciting and sensual that the only reason why all men are not adopting feminine styles is because of the great fear of homosexuality/sissification which strips men of their status and earning capacity.

Jere Oneil, this is the reason you don't see girl cut undwear or mens capris. As for your comments one why women can shop for mens items and not be see a wierdo, as a man would. ( Who hasn't seen women in the mens undwear deparment? ) Partly because society inherantly believes women is innocent. Maybe she's shopping for her boyfriend or husband? We've all heard the saying, "innocent women and children" Women are not child like innocent in any manner. But it's what we have been told for so long. When was the last time you've heard the term "innocent men and children"?

Society has so very far to go, and slow it does go. At least things change.

[Sheri 4242]

Why is it that a woman can wear a men's clothes, but when a guy wears women's clothes he is not accepted by society?

IMO, this thread has headed in several different directions that really aren't at the heart of what was originally stated. Frankly, I have never known a mtf heterosexual crossdresser who didn't "feel the question" that you have asked.

Let's look at a different example than has been given. In the movie The Americam Preident, Annette Benning's character emerges wearing a man's dress shirt. As such, she is considered "chic," "sexy," and "en vogue." Now, what would have been the general feeling had Martin Sheen's character dressed up in a sexy nightie? This would have been viewed as strange-to-perverse!


During WWII women had to work in factories for the war machine...they couldn't wear skirts to do the job..they got the rights to wear pants.


If you'll check the history books on the subject (The Homefront and V was for Victory are wo that come to mind), women who went to work in the defense plants during WW II had to wear slacks and/or overalls. Many were ridiculed -- for their appearance and for working. But, in the main, they were accepted. Rosie the Riveter was neded. Had "Joe-blow" who was 4F shown up for work in a dress, he would definitely been ridiculed -- and in many places, he reasonably would have feared bodily harm. After WW II, most all women went back to dresses -- and went back home (and divorce rates soared in the U.S., but that is another subject).

In the 1950's and through a great part of the 1960's, boys wore pants to school (and no denim), and girls wore skirts or dresses. A girl in pants would have been considered odd and unacceptable -- but not as odd as a male would have been considered if he had shown up to school in a skirt. I remember a high school beauty contest in 1968 (or maybe 1969) where two of the girls wore the "new" pant suits. They were viewed as trend-setters.


Oh my word, here we are again. Here are a few facts some people don't like, but undeniable.

Fact: Women are allowed to wear what they want.

Fact: Men are not.

Fact: Anyone who tries to appear as the opposite gender will generally not be accepted.

I find it upsetting when GG's make the claim that it's different because they do not try to appear or pass as a guy. I don't try to pass or appear as a female. Yet a denim skirt, tennis shoes, and basic t-shirt does not fly. Let me know when I can apply for a job wear ing a skirt or makeup and stand a resonable chance of getting hired.

There is a whole spectrum of crossdressing. If I want to play tennis in a tennis dress, maybe I might have a right to do so, but I'll wager I'd be black-balled by the country club before the second set was finished. But, let my wife wear one of my t-shirts and a pair of men's running shorts on court and nobody is going to think a thing of it.



Men use to wear gowns and dresses just like the women. And at one time they were very fancy, frilly and lacy.

On this side of the pond, just look at renderings of people like George Washington or Benjamin Franklin. On the UK side of the pond, look at portraits of George III, et al. They wore a lot of frill on their shirts (or blouses as they were often refered to); they wore capri-type pants (and either tights or knee-highs). Their night wear was gown-like.

Sarah Jessica Parker is considered ultra chic in the tv show Sex & The City) wearing a man's dress shirt, tie, and suit (pants and jacket), with high heels. Let a male actor wear the same, and he is either going for laughs or is a freak.

Oh well, there's just too much to go into at this time of the AM. The bottom line is women can wear just about anything they want in today's society and men can't. Look for me on the tennis court in a tennis dress and see if I am not the subject of ridicule! Of course, I might do so sans wig, but the object is the same.

[Ashly]

The key is, Sheri...none of those women you mentioned tried to pass as male....Most of the CD's however try to pass as female..and that is the BIG difference.

[Ashly]

......
You are assuming that crossdressing is only about transgenderism. It is not. .....

I can only agree on that !!!! The spectrum of crossdressing is as wide as you find human beings out there.

[Emma England]

It makes no difference whether a cd is trying to pass as female or not.

The ridicule is still there.

[noname]

I'm all for equality too. I feel like you should be able to show up at a job interview in makeup and get hired. However, as an FtM, I wouldn't be able to go to a job interview in a men's suit and tie and still get the job.

That kinda surprises me a bit.


However, I also agree with the comments that whatever you wear is as acceptable as you make it. I've seen stories from CDers here who do go out in a jean skirt and tennis shoes without trying to pass. Nobody stoned them. Most big cities, I'd bet you could get away with wearing almost anything.

I agree with you that this is true in most respects. I have worn a jean skirt and was very much a non event. My city isn't large, but not exactly small. I think the difference is in the definition of acceptance. An example of my definition of acceptance would be.

Jerry invited me bowling to meet his college friends. I wore my new plaid skirt, sadly no one noticed my cool new skirt.

So sure, I can go out and people will leave me alone. But social gathers is something different.


If I want to play tennis in a tennis dress, maybe I might have a right to do so, but I'll wager I'd be black-balled by the country club before the second set was finished. But, let my wife wear one of my t-shirts and a pair of men's running shorts on court and nobody is going to think a thing of it.

Maybe I have too much fight in me, but I'd do it just to prove a point.

[JoAnnDallas]

Just this last weekend, Wife, sister, and I were sitting at the kitchen table eating lunch. My sister looked at me and said, "That's a women T-shirt your wearing?" I said, "Yes it is". She then asked WHY. I told her that it felt great and I like the shorter length and your the first person to notice. She looked at my wife and wife did not make a comment. My sister then dropped the conversation and no more was said rest of the weekend. All three of us were out and about and even went to a moive and I wore my Haines T-shirts both days.
In fact Sunday when we went to the movie I was wearing panties, Haines shorts, Haines T-shirt, and my fem sandels (with socks covering my polished toes). Both my wife and sister knows these are normally female items, but did not have a problem with them and no one while we were out noticed. BTW my sister does not know I wear panties. It has only been very recent that I got my wife to let me wear panties. I get heat rash a lot and one place I get it is between my legs. I asked my wife if I could borrow a pair of hers because the rash and my undershorts were chaffing me. The next day she asked how they felt. I told her that it felt a lot better. She gave me three of her old pairs.
Anyway, in a sense, I am doing my part going out with normal fem clothing in male mode. It may not seem a lot, but to me it is a start.

[Marla S]

Anyway, in a sense, I am doing my part going out with normal fem clothing in male mode. It may not seem a lot, but to me it is a start.
:clap: It IS a lot !!!:clap:

[Mary Morgan]

It isn't the clothing, it is the attempt to look in every way like a woman. Society does have a problem when real women wear beards and mustaches. If we are going to keep trying to deal with this question, we need to compare apples with apples. Besides, society has trouble with everything at some level. If you want to wear woman's clothing go for it, I do. OBTW, I wear women's clothing because I consider myself, at some level, female. My wife has no such thought when she wears "guy" clothes.

[Ashly]

It isn't the clothing, it is the attempt to look in every way like a woman. ......

I agree again..that is exactly the difference between wearing some clothes from the opposite sex and go out.....or how you want to pass as the opposite sex in public in one way or the other.