To Pass - or not to pass - as what - accepted as a crossdresser?

[valery]

Many threats are about to pass or not to pass. I can clearly understand that but in my point of view it's overrated and it'll never work the way we want.
Some of us (barefaced) have a very feminine body, but only some of us and I think this is not the point.

I may reduce it to a questions for crossdressers by excluding the ones who really want to change their gender (TS) with the pain been born in the wrong body...I think that the wish (ability) to pass is sadly a kind of hiding, because if I can pass as a real girl and no one is able to figure it out - I would still be a undercover(guy).
Wouldn't it be great to be just accepted as a crossdresser?
So could you agree that the claim to pass as a real girl is a try to live undercover, to keep a low profile???
I mean, a crossdresser is a crossdresser and usually not a physical girl, allthough he feels more as a girl or loves his feminine-part and my idea for future is to fight exactly for that in between. You know, we have boys and girls, gays, crossdressers, transsexuals, transformers etc. etc.
Why can't have crossdressers the same induvidual standing like gay people have?

Is there a space for crossdressers and transsexuals to be accepted for what they are, without the claim to put them into a box and make them to pass into a society-gender-box? Maybe this comes up because I'm an "in between", so nothing really fits to me. I don't want to be accepted as a girl, I want to be accepted as me, that's it. So a new open gender class so it woul be much more easier to tell somebody that he looks great and not to tell somebody that he's close to look like a girl - to pass?!

I'm a CD maybe one day I'll be a transsexual - no idea about it yet, it may turn out tomorrow. OMG!
It's not frighten me, as I've found a lot of various lovely people here and this is givinmg me safety and hope and makes me feel a bit more normal - a variable-gender-class would be cool, or?.

So why we're not able to accept us for what we are (me too:sad:) and allways fight for this dream to be able to pass.

What's the idea about all this? So what we try to do is to be exactly like girls. And we sometimes even try harder to fit the image to be a girl, than girls do.
Is there anything else? I mean, do you think that it may be possible one day to be accepted as a human beeing no matter about your gender and your sexual orientation or do you think we will allways have to be assigned to something? So if I would like to turn up on a concert dressed as a guy but with hair and makeup like a girl couldn't this be cool allthough it's out of everything???

[Ashley Lynn Swift]

Valery you make a good point, maybe there is too much emphasis on passing, but i think that for a lot of Cders it very much part of the thrill weather or not they pass or fail i think that it give them an absolute rush the fear of beung outed, or even better fooling everybody. Of course for me when i finnally do go out passing is like goning to be a most, but then again i very much consider myself a girl trapped inside this prison i call my body. just the thought of not passing is the only fear left in me that is keeping me locked up at home, i think my fragile heart would just be crushed if i couldn't pass

[Alex-is]

I would love to see that kinda thing happen. I have no real desire to pass, I love my hair the way it is (short), i really dont like makeup, i just like the clothes. Its a shame that if one does decide to CD, one has to go at it all out (so it seems, at least to me).

I echo your sentiments

[Kate Simmons]

I already accept everyone for who they are as a person Valery, no questions asked. The person is and always will be the most important thing to me, no matter what type of "container" they choose to use.

[Sweet Jane]

Pass????...I might pass late at night in the local Braille centre..other than that, I am a guy in womans clothes...strange I may be...but I am just me, and I'm certainly not apologising to anyone for the hand life dealt me......

[noname]

I never try to pass. I am me, and that is all there is to that. I just happen to like some styles that are considred female only and believe in equality of all people. I feel I want nothing more than what most GG's take for granted everyday.

There will probably always be a divide of the sexes. People like to feel they belong to something or group of some type. Just look at marketing. They have womens daily vitamins and mens daily vitamins. Checking the label will show they are basically the same thing. I think it shows people like to put things into compartments and feel a sense of belonging.

What I do like is when I go to the store and they ask about my wife. I feel I'm accomplishing awareness and dispelling many myths.


Ahhh.... Nothing beats being treated like a normal person.

[maid2behave]

Hi everyone, in my case I am pretty well convinced that I am never going to pass. Is it a problem, no. I am six foot tall and muscular (six seven in my most outragous heels) For me it is not about passing but rather about expressing a part of myself that rarely gets a chance to come out.

[Suzy Harrison]

Valery makes a good point that real girls don't try as hard as we do - isn't it so frustrating?! - I guess we would like to pass firstly so we don't get into difficult situations but also to be accepted. But as has already been said, why should we?. It's just old attitudes - but they are changing - slowly. Twenty years ago in the UK you could get arrested just for being in a public place dressed as a girl for "Conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace" - even if there were no one else around! - nuts or what? But things are getting better over there.

[Lisa Golightly]

So if I would like to turn up on a concert dressed as a guy but with hair and makeup like a girl couldn't this be cool allthough it's out of everything???

This was absolutely fine in the eighties... Actually, for a while it was absolutely de rigeur in some circles :)

[Marla S]

Valery you made some good points.

From what I read from various members here, yes for quite a few keeping a low profile is a reason to try to pass (my impression is that this holds true more for the closeted ones though).

But there is also the dream or need to be accepted as a women. You hardly can't achieve that if you don't pretend to be a women.
One of the first and most important judgments a person does seeing another person is boxing someone as man or women.
This is quite often done subconsciously, but will have a heavy impact on how a person is treated.
Hence if you want to be accepted and treated as a woman you have to pretend to be one.

If your aim is not trying to pass, there is no need for a new open gender class. A broadening of the definition of man is sufficient (for MTFs). 'Feminine man' doesn't fall within the definition of man right now.

Why they are not able to accept us ?
Well, before acceptance comes tolerance.
You only can tolerate what you know, what you see and what you experience as not dangerous.
That means for us to go out and make people used to see folks like us, and try to convince them that we are not a threat.
Acceptance might follow when people experience that we are folks like anybody else ... except for the clothes.
My biggest concern here is, and ever has been, that except for this forum, CDing is associated with a considerable sexual load and sexual 'exhibitionism'.
As long this image is produced or seen (justified or not) there will be no 'broad' acceptance.

Like said above, trying to pass or not, we need to go out, be gentle, polity, and open to make a step towards acceptance.
But we must be aware, that the 'spearheads' will have to face the biggest trouble.

Personally I follow the 'feminine man' route and I go almost everywhere with makeup and other girly things.
Usually I don't get comments or I am not being mocked, but I get stares or get sniggered at sometimes, and I know that I cause tongues to wag.
Depending on my mood this increases or smashes my self-esteem.

[Dita_B]

Wouldn't it be great to be just accepted as a crossdresser?
and my idea for future is to fight exactly for that[/U] in between.
Why can't have crossdressers the same induvidual standing like gay people have?

I can't agree with you more...and I think we are already well underway to achieve that goal...

When we can walk into stores as men and try on lingerie in the dressing rooms, I think that proofs that there is already a lot of tolerance and/or acceptance around. However, the public at large is always slow to catch on, because most are afraid to be seen as not conforming to the norm. Especially when in groups. But individually, I think most people are already accepting a CD for what she is, as I can go about en femme freely without being ridiculed.

I speak for myself when I say that I enjoy immensely the feeling that comes with passing as a female, although I agree with your statements. Going around dressed to the nine's and being addressed as Ma'am, is too great of a thrill to let go of.
At least for me...

:love:Dita.

[stacie]

Its not about passing for me, But tring to fit in with the crowd out in public. I do try my best to fit in, If I pass "COOL" if not, oh well.

[Tamasina]

For me its not passing but learning to be myself.

[Carin]

Certainly the scale of crossdressering stretches all the way from minimal to transgendered to "member of the opposite sex in all ways except anatomy" - female for m2f, male for f2m. A subset finds solace in the privacy - or even the adventure - of the act and prefers to keep it that way. A subset seeks acceptance of its legitimacy. A subset maybe doesn't care. All are valid aspirations on the scale.

For myself it is the desire for freedom to present and express myself without fear of ridicule, without feat of hurt for myself or those near and dear to me, without overshadowing my character. It just so happens to be a presentation and manner that sometimes in many ways would be culturally ascribed as feminine.

I agree with much of what has been said here and in other posts on this topic.



Like said above, trying to pass or not, we need to go out, be gentle, polity, and open to make a step towards acceptance.
But we must be aware, that the 'spearheads' will have to face the biggest trouble.

Remember when "gay" was taboo on tv. Then Ellen DeGeneres (relevant EW article) (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,277859,00.html) flipped it around. I agree with you Marla S.

We have a cosy corner here with these forums - and I am very appreciateive for having them, the quality of life has been changed for the better because this is here. But if you put down your computer and go to the front door - it is another story. We have a male dominant power culture with a nieve homophobic ignorance attached. It will take time, and a few "spearheads".

Definately the internet will accellerate the process. I do find courage from posts here to be able to go out and present myself and enjoy myself at the same time. There is not much out there for role models that we might learn form.
For me its not passing but learning to be myself. So we have to learn for ourselves - what it is - what makes us tick.

The original statement included
I think that the wish (ability) to pass is sadly a kind of hiding, because if I can pass as a real girl and no one is able to figure it out - I would still be a undercover(guy). Wouldn't it be great to be just accepted as a crossdresser?
The ability or desire to pass is not necessarily a "spearhead" role, but nonetheless a vital part of the process of cultural acceptance. It allows us to get past the front door. It provides a foundation which those that do not pass, or are not trying to pass, can use as a stepping store. Passing is rarely an absolute. So many threads here refer to the interactions or reactions of SAs etc. But to pass by everybody else to get to the SA is indeed of value, for we now know that SA's are relatively safe harbours because they are more interested in our money. Without passing by everybody else we might not have gotten to that point. I felt the urge not too long ago to do a little shopping. I wanted a dress that fit me. Went to mervyns and found a few items including a dress. In the past I would have bought it and tried it on at home. But based on the relative safety expressed in these columns, I took the plunge, and a deep breath, and approached a SA. Told her I wanted to buy what I had selected, but I needed to see if it fit first. I was androgenously drab. She paused for a moment (lots of customers in the ladies dressing rooms) and said "sure, no problem, but you need to use the mens fitting room over there" So I took my dress and other stuff to the mens changing room. Score one for the guy in the dress in the mens changing room.

We all play a role. Together we will prevail.

This is way too long-winded, but it has been on my mind for some time. passing or not passing is becoming less of an issue of me. Truth of character is all I ask, however it comes.

[Cindi Ann Kelly]

To pass or not to pass is not important to me.
For me the only thing that really matters is to
be accepted. Here, I am accepted with no restrictions
on my appearance.

Cindi

[MsJanessa]

Valerie I couldn't agree with you more---as I've always said I would rather be accepted as a beautiful, glamorous, sexy T-Girl than "pass" as an ordinary woman. I agree that you have to exclude TS ladies from this equation---=but speaking for the rest of Us CDs---right on:dom:

[Butterfly Bill]

I an very obviously a man in women's clothes, and I have short hair and a beard. I think this actually gets me more acceptance than trying to pretend I am a woman.

[Kristen Kelly]

Its not about passing for me, But tring to fit in with the crowd out in public. I do try my best to fit in, If I pass "COOL" if not, oh well.

Less about passing I agree it is better to blend, when I'm out 85% of the people will not even notice me, 13% won't care, it's the 2% I have to be carefull around, those I try to avoid.

[lmildcd]

To pass or not to pass is not important to me.
For me the only thing that really matters is to
be accepted. Here, I am accepted with no restrictions
on my appearance.

Cindi

I agree with Cindi. I don't know if I would ever go out with outerware except for sweat pants and some shirts that could pass for either male or female clothes. I'm happy in the confines of my own home.

L

[Rachel Morley]

We have a cosy corner here with these forums - and I am very appreciative for having them, the quality of life has been changed for the better because this is here. But if you put down your computer and go to the front door - it is another story. We have a male dominant power culture with a naive homophobic ignorance attached.
:yt: .... totally! .... just what she said. It's going to be an uphill struggle. :sad:

[Faith_G]

Less about passing I agree it is better to blend...I think that has a lot to do with it. To me, passing isn't about people thinking "Wow, she's pretty". It's about people not noticing anything unusual - or at least just thinking "When she fell out of the ugly tree did she hit every branch?" :devil:

Passing/blending is situational. Today at a Home Depot I saw a fellow CD'r. The only reason I noticed her was that she wouldn't have looked out of place in a fancy restaurant, at a theater, or a funeral. She was elegantly attired and would have blended quite well in any of those settings - but at the Home Depot, jeans and a t-shirt would have blended a whole lot better. She definitely passed, though. :clap:

[SusanMarie]

:2c:
I agree that this very personal experience we deal with, causes significant internal struggle. I think we are our own worst critics, probably as it should be.
My experience to date, thought limited, is that if you dress to 'blend' to the situation, then very few people notice, even fewer care, rarely does anyone say something. Most people I have encountered may not understand me but will treat me with respect if I do the same. :happy:

[Holly]

...Most people I have encountered may not understand me but will treat me with respect if I do the same. :happy:Bingo! Susan, you're dead on! If we respect their space, they will respect us... at least that has been my experience.

[Satrana]

Good points Valery. However a better awareness of our transgendered state will only occur when more CDs come out of the closet and preferably, with regard to the younger generation, never having to hid in the closet in the first place. Only then will you see many CDs openly expressing themselves without the need to pass.

But as others have said, passing is enormous fun so it will never go away but hopefully it will be eventually be seen as a fun hobby element of transgenderism rather than the holy grail. Rome was not built in a day so give it time and a more common sense approach to crossdressing will evolve.

[KateSpade83]

I shopped yesterday in full drag, and if I didn't pass I couldn't ever do what I did -- I went to pee in a well stocked women's washroom, and I tried on an $1800 St. John skirt suit at the Neiman Marcus boutique. Really scared me when the sales lady said she would come back in the fitting booth to see how I'm doing. So I dressed real quick and took a camera phone pic of myself in the outfit. I wanted to buy this outfit at the St. John boutique but it was too expensive, so I'll satisfy myself with this pic for memories and hope this suit shows up on ebay!

So for me, passing is 100% important!

[Krystenw]

For years it was just my wife and I. Then my Mother-in-law found out and everything changed. Mom will bring over a box full of things she picked up at yard sales or at the thrift store and there is always several things in the box for me.
When it got to the point that I had more "ladies" clothes then "mens" I just stopped worring about what I had on.

If I have on a dress or a skirt and blouse when the neighbor ladies come over to quilt I don't worry about it any longer and they have pretty much accepted me as who I am. I wear Capri's and a t-shirt to mow the lawn and have even started wearing them shopping.

One of the ladies that come over to quilt has helped me with my eyebrows and even did a makeover for me one day to show me how to put on my makeup. She said I was using too much and kept telling me that "less is more" So I have pretty much given up on anything more then lipstick and a little foundation and eye shodow in the makeup department. When you are as old and ugly as I am, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference how much you use.

I agree it would be nice if we didn't have to worry as much about going anywhere but as was mentioned in another post there will always be that 2% of folks that would complain if they got hung with a new rope.

I think passing is just a state of mind. I know I never will and have given up on trying. My wife tells me I look a whole lot better then a lot of the women we see wandering around the mall. At least I have the majority of my body covered.

[Karren H]

When I used to go out, a month ago or so..... I just went out... and who knows if I passed or not... and frankly I didn't care... No one hastled me and I didn't keep a low profile.. If someone didn't like the way I dressed, that's their problem, not mine....

Karren

[KateSpade83]

But isn't passing 100% important if you go in a crowded women's washroom? If they know your a guy = big trouble?

[valery]

First of all thanks for all those answers. Seccond I have to tell you that I feel real home in this place because of you. :love:


I don't worry about it any longer and they have pretty much accepted me as who I am.
One of the ladies that come over to quilt has helped me with my eyebrows and even did a makeover for me one day to show me how to put on my makeup.

I think passing is just a state of mind. I know I never will and have given up on trying. My wife tells me I look a whole lot better then a lot of the women we see wandering around the mall. At least I have the majority of my body covered.

Thanks for this outstanding cool story about you. That's a different but cool and amazing point of view.
So you live in a good neighborhood, that's cool. Can I borrow them for my "come out" some day? :heehee:

What was that moment when you said to yourself: "I don't worry about it any longer", how did that feel, what did change in your heart, your head? You said when you had more "ladies" clothes then "mens" - but that's only the clothes(external).
Did you get more self-assurance at that point or was it more like to stop to torture yourself because that torture to pass was more painful than the fear of negative feedback or uncertain events?

You said that you will not give up on trying. Is it just to be what you are - without trying to fit to a default-picture and the passing is more a game? Or is it still the wish to be a full accepted girl but the awareness that you cant't pass a 100%?


I agree it would be nice if we didn't have to worry as much about going anywhere but as was mentioned in another post there will always be that 2% of folks that would complain if they got hung with a new rope.
It's much more than 2% allthough I wish it would be only 2%. I mentioned in a few other threats that I have two gay-couples in my circle of friends and their stories about tolerance today were disillusioning, allthough the area were I live is dedicated to be open minded I had to find out that it's not always the way it looks at first sight, but we'll keep on going.


When I used to go out, a month ago or so..... I just went out... and who knows if I passed or not... and frankly I didn't care... No one hastled me and I didn't keep a low profile.. If someone didn't like the way I dressed, that's their problem, not mine....
Karren
I can't agree with you more and you're a cool, self-assured , strong lady. It's their problem that's so true...but I'm not so self-confidently as you and I mostly have the desire that everybody should like me. I know that's silly and I'm working on that, but I'm contaminated with this bad-20th-century-disease and most people in the world have this virus. You Know this advertising-thing (beauty, be hot, be cool, be the boss, be the man, be the princess, be the star etc. and you should better buy this product or this car to be and belong to ...) wouldn't have so much power.

it's great and encouraging to see people like you :hugs:


But isn't passing 100% important if you go in a crowded women's washroom? If they know your a guy = big trouble?
I think it depends on the place and the women. From my point of view women have more tolerance. A strange idea is growing in me: We have to ask for equal rights, so a washroom for all those who don't fit into those society-boxes. A gender-free-washroom. My mind is sometimes really weird and crazy, sorry...but I like this idea. So if I would open a cool club in NYC I might would have 4 toilets? (man,girl,mtf,ftm). Someone will do it as PR if he reads this I don't care.

[Stephenie S]

When I used to go out, a month ago or so..... I just went out... and who knows if I passed or not... and frankly I didn't care... No one hastled me and I didn't keep a low profile.. If someone didn't like the way I dressed, that's their problem, not mine....

Karren


So what's up, Karren?

What ever do you mean, "When I USED to go out."? What's going on, dear?

Have you given it up?

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Rikkicn]

I want to have the experience of living my life as a woman and being perceived as a woman (passing is only part of this)is important to be able to relax into the experience.
This is the reason that I am transitioning. I realized that my story is different from others I’ve heard or read about. I never felt like I was a woman trapped etc. I never had a longing to be a girl as I was growing up. I didn’t and don’t feel like I had a birth defect. What I have has nothing to do with illness or perversion of any kind. I desire to live n the world as a woman and all that can bring me.
If I didn’t transition I’m certain I could lead a good life with lots of joy and happiness. I feel that I’m making a choice. One that will in some ways make my life more difficult but will bring me even greater happiness and joy than I could ever find living as a man.

[Krystenw]

Valery,
I don't know how to make this page paste a quote.
But in answer to your question about when I no longer started to worry.
I had to have some major surgery on my lower back (The steel rods, bolts, etc.)
and I had to be out of work for a couple months. It was very difficult to get pants on and since I had plenty of dresses I thought it was only natural.
After about the 5th week of being cooped up at home my wife decided we should go into the city to the mall. I was still having problems getting dress up like a guy so she said I might as well go in a dress. To make a long story short, I spent the entire morning getting ready and we made a trip to the mall. I was petrified and was glad to find they had family restrooms.
That was also when the ladies that came by to quilt accepted me as one of their own. (I'm getting so I can quilt with the best of them.)
But as was mentioned. I dress very conservativly. If I have to use the ladies room I go in, complete the task, wash my hands and leave. I have learned to smile and nod my head and keep my mouth shut, and do everything I can to not draw any attention. I guess for me it's not a matter of passing but more of just blending in.
The photo I have attached was taken that day. That was before I was taught that with makeup, Less is More.
Krysten

[crusadergirl]

blend or pass it don't make an difference to me. I'm just myself i don't go by a label, so really passing isn't something i worry about at all.