Transgender! Here did it get there?

[Ranae]

I really want to know why.....


Transgender is lumped in to "Gay Lesbian & Bi" .

Transgender is not a sexuality, it is just in between "Male & Female".


As a male you have 4 types of sexuality:
Straight
Bi
Gay
A-Sexual


As a Female you have 4 types of sexuality:
Straight
Bi
Lesbian
A-Sexual


But as a Transgender you have 5 types of sexuality:
Straight
Bi
Gay
Lesbian
A-Sexual



So in the list how does the Transgender fit in the sexual titles?

Why did it get there anyhow?

Maybe I will just call myself a TryGender {I tried one gender now I will try the other}. Thats me Ranae!

RC
{With the inquiring mind}

[Kate Simmons]

I'll go it one better Ranae and say to me it's TY(thank you) gender.Whatever it is, it's helped me to understand myself better for sure.:happy:

[JennMW]

Helen Boyd's new book "Shes not the man I married" discusses this topic in depth, Highly suggested reading!

Basically it is an attempt to join the ranks of the Gay/Lesbian rights activists to assure equal rigfhts for all gender/sexuality variants.

[Di]

Really did not know the answer why.....so googled it and got this.


Why "transgender" is lumped in with "gay lesbian and bi" whenever something is categorized.

. Even though transgendered is not really about one's sexual orientation I think transgendered people have to deal with many similar problems as gay, bi and lesbian people. Society is divided in its opinion on these groups, there is a lot of controversy, all of them are discriminated against and have some people fighting against them. In a way I think it's ok to group transgendered together with gays, bis and lesbians when it comes to discussing matters that have to do with their rights and society's attitude towards them. The transgendered are a bit different from the rest, but I don't think they'd be better off if they were alone in their battle for acceptance.

[celeste26]

Pure politics, that is why it is lumped together nothing more. Just remember that politics is far more than who gets elected. Aids was the first "political disease", where politics so overpowered the merely medical that nonsensical ways of dealing with it were created to avoid hurting the feelings of the victims.

The whole LGBT way of life is politics played out on the retail stage. It is not about sexuality it is about power and control over people's own life. If it truly were about the sexuality there would be little connections between the various parts of the L G B & T communities each is mostly separate unto itself with their own issues and their own agendas.

What is remarkable is that these separate communities have been able to remain basically together at all given their lack of togetherness in other areas of life.

[Marla S]

Yep LGB and T are lumped together because of a similar kind of discrimination ... that's all.
You could pick up any other discriminated group and put TG folks in there ... no big difference.

This has advantages in being a bigger (hence louder) group of 'fellow combatants'.

It has disadvantages, because transness is confused with sexual orientation in the fist instance. Hence people usually miss the point of it, and the first label you get is a CD is gay or lesbian.

[Ranae]

Yes Marla, This is the reason for this thread.

I personlly consider myself a A-Sexual .... But when someone hears that one is a TG or CD one of their first questions is "Your Gay?".

[Marla S]

Yes Marla, This is the reason for this thread.
I thought so and I am not happy with this 'grouping' either.

Personally I think we would be better off without this direct LGB linkage.
There has enough work to be done to reconcile CD and TS folks.

I think we owe the LGB movement a lot for paving the way towards a more tolerant society, but I think it is high time to stand on our own feet now.

[Julogden]

Our "enemies", in their ignorance, have lumped us T's in with the LGB, and since we generally find more acceptance among gay and lesbian folk than among stright folk, we've just sort of fallen in with gay and lesbian people.

Allying with them gives us more strength in numbers, but does tend to confuse the straight world even more than they are when it comes to differentiating between sexual and gender identities.

Carol

[Ranae]

I think we owe the LGB movement a lot for paving the way towards a more tolerant society, but I think it is high time to stand on our own feet now.

I am with you 100% on that....

There is a lot of time we are shunned by the GBL as they are not really as accepting to the TG community as the general public is.

I see this a lot on our outing adventures and the clubbing we do.

[BarbaraTalbot]

As a straight appraiser with a real estate license, no matter what kind of affinity I feel for the struggles a gay man might have selling real estate, I am a lousy candidate for ads that advertise find a gay Realtor now.

I would actually be more inclined to click on find a black or Hispanic Realtor now if it was about shared struggles with discrimination.

I have long laughed at the "Women's Council of Realtors Round Table where they sit around and talk about the challenges of being a woman in Real Estate Sales. considering women are 65 to 70% of the licensees, I'm not sure what the challenge is, but I digress.

Neither is actually appropriate.

I am unlikely to pick any professional on the basis of discriminating against entire classes of people just because they are numerically superior.

[Sheri 4242]

Ranae,

You ask, "So in the list how does the Transgender fit in the sexual titles? Why did it get there anyhow?"

That brings up two items. First what does the term mean? (It is something we seem to discuss on here every few weeks.) Second, how does it fit in with, or become associated with GLB?

To answer the second question first, several have given reasons for such grouping . . . and I think what Di came up with is the most accurate:


Even though transgendered is not really about one's sexual orientation I think transgendered people have to deal with many similar problems as gay, bi and lesbian people. Society is divided in its opinion on these groups, there is a lot of controversy, all of them are discriminated against and have some people fighting against them. In a way I think it's ok to group transgendered together with gays, bis and lesbians when it comes to discussing matters that have to do with their rights and society's attitude towards them. The transgendered are a bit different from the rest, but I don't think they'd be better off if they were alone in their battle for acceptance.


To answer the first question (and thus see how it fits into the second), I subscribe to the following:

In psychology and psychiatry (as well as current general medical literature) TG is an umbrella term. The common academic definition of trangendered is one with a cross gender identification that, on one end of the scale is expressed as a need or desire to crossdress, partially (from a single article of clothing) to fully, with or without the goal of achieving sexual arousal, to those who desire to pass as the other sex, to those with a stated desire to be the other sex (desiring to live or be treated as the other sex). On the TS side of the scale there is usually persistent discomfort with one's sense of their gender AND their anatomical sex. A transgendered person can also be considered to be one whose gender identity is, to some greater or lesser degree, inconsistent with with their sexual anatomy so that one's sense of gender is somewhere between feminine and masculine.

Transgender identification and behaviors fall on a continuum between that which has always been held to be traditionally maculine and that which has always been held to be traditionally feminine.

Obviously, anyone who is TG can also be GLB, but being TG doesn't automatically place one in any specific sexual orientation.

No LABELS -- No STEREOTYPING -- No BOXING ANYONE IN -- it is just a way to communicate and, in so doing, know we are all on the same page!!!

[christianna]

I think we owe the LGB movement a lot for paving the way towards a more tolerant society, but I think it is high time to stand on our own feet now.


How would you suggest going about it, separating from LGB movement?
Christianna

[Teresa Amina]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. An old idea, still applies today. You find your allies wherever they may be.

[Marla S]

How would you suggest going about it, separating from LGB movement?
Christianna

Haha, now you got me ... Weisenheimer wise :D

Let's think what I as an individual could do.

Besides saying that it is a different matter, when asked or it is commented about:

I don't visit LGB clubs or bars in order to have an opportunity to dress.

I often thought about participating in gay prides, but actually never did, because I always thought I don't fit in there.
I resolved to be a bystander of the next one, to support and applaud them, but this will be one of the few days I will wear pure drab.

I might participate in a parade under this flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Transgender_Pride_flag.svg), if there is one and I have the guts :straightface:.

More organized folks (I am not a member of any group) could (and according to my impression already do) organize their own events.

I could (should ?) become a member of a TG group.

What I find most important is that CDs and TSs find a common ground. IMO there are strong tendencies to segregate from each other (partly for good reasons).

There have been two documentaries lately here in G, where TSs insisted not to be confused with the 'short-skirt-fraction' (aka CDs) and that transitioning ' released them from this burden':sad:.

CDs in general could desexualise their dressing in public (including i-net).

[Carin]

For most of the general public, the most common frame of reference for crossdressing is the Drag Queen circuit which has been predominantly a subset of the gay community. Thus the immediate mental association of crossdressing and gay.

The differentiation between Gender Identity and Sexual orientation is difficult for most to grasp. (Count the number of posts from new members that incluse "Am I.. or Is he.. gay?").

With more acceptance and more openness, the difference will come out. Differentiation is a good thing, but acceptance is higher on the list IMHO. I someone accepts me I can explain the difference. If they do not accept me I probably will not get the chance. I would rather piggyback on a law that prohibits GBLT discrimination than attempt to seperate GBL from T

[gennee]

Pure politics, that is why it is lumped together nothing more. Just remember that politics is far more than who gets elected. Aids was the first "political disease", where politics so overpowered the merely medical that nonsensical ways of dealing with it were created to avoid hurting the feelings of the victims.

The whole LGBT way of life is politics played out on the retail stage. It is not about sexuality it is about power and control over people's own life. If it truly were about the sexuality there would be little connections between the various parts of the L G B & T communities each is mostly separate unto itself with their own issues and their own agendas.

What is remarkable is that these separate communities have been able to remain basically together at all given their lack of togetherness in other areas of life.

Your right about LGBT managing to stay together though there are differences. One thing that we all face together and that's discrimination.

Gennee

[Sheri 4242]

Differentiation is a good thing, but acceptance is higher on the list IMHO.

Great statement, Carin . . . and I agree wholeheartedly -- in fact, I agree with your whole post!!! The general public's perception is that Drag Queens make sense b/c there is a congruence of sexual orientation and appearance -- combined with temperament. Therein lies the double-edged sword of association! Differentation is a must; acceptance, perhaps depends upon it in a broader sense?!!?

[Kate Simmons]

If I have learned anything, it's that you have to make your own way in the TG community and without your own individual fortitude, you are finished regardless of whether you are in a group or Org. or not.:happy:

[Sally24]

I think we owe the LGB movement a lot for paving the way towards a more tolerant society, but I think it is high time to stand on our own feet now.
That is wishfull thinking from what I have observed in the "community". Transgendered people are a very small, and generally inactive minority. In T-girl groups, it is hard enough to even get enough girls to help with organizing things. Most agree with Cindy Lauper "gurls just want to have fun". If you disassociate us with our brothers and sisters in the Gay, Lesbian, and Bi community then we are the weaker and lesser for it.

As far as the grouping being a sexual thing that is more of a percieved thing then really the truth. We are all together because we are varients to the mainstream ideas of gender, sex, and men and women. Gay and lesbian people would tell you that it's not mostly about sex, it's about love. The intersex people would also tell you it's not about sex but about freedom to exist. And to be honest, alot in the transgendered world is about sex! Yes it is primarily about gender and gender expression but there is a very strong element of sexuallity the runs thru almost all of our subgroups.

If you don't like the grouping than try putting some effort into working for our group independantly. Talk to your legislators about protections. Stand up and dissent when someones makes a degrading comment about a T person. If you're not willing to put the work in, don't complain about the people that are.

Start small. I am just getting involved but the more you do, the more it snowballs into something larger.

[Marla S]

That is wishfull thinking from what I have observed in the "community". Transgendered people are a very small, and generally inactive minority. In T-girl groups, it is hard enough to even get enough girls to help with organizing things. Most agree with Cindy Lauper "gurls just want to have fun". If you disassociate us with our brothers and sisters in the Gay, Lesbian, and Bi community then we are the weaker and lesser for it.

As far as the grouping being a sexual thing that is more of a percieved thing then really the truth. We are all together because we are varients to the mainstream ideas of gender, sex, and men and women. Gay and lesbian people would tell you that it's not mostly about sex, it's about love. The intersex people would also tell you it's not about sex but about freedom to exist. And to be honest, alot in the transgendered world is about sex! Yes it is primarily about gender and gender expression but there is a very strong element of sexuallity the runs thru almost all of our subgroups.

I have no problems with homosexuals, and I know that it is about love. I am not stupid.
I do have problems with the 'straight (normal) folks' and their perception.
I want to be seen as me and not to be boxed as gay or sex driven something by the straight folks that thinks along the most 'obvious' and most familiar line, even if it is the wrong one and you told them.
Hence the intention is not to distance myself/ourselves from LGB but to sharpen the own profile, by stepping a bit aside.



If you don't like the grouping than try putting some effort into working for our group independantly. Talk to your legislators about protections. Stand up and dissent when someones makes a degrading comment about a T person. If you're not willing to put the work in, don't complain about the people that are.

Start small. I am just getting involved but the more you do, the more it snowballs into something larger.
:sad:It seems a bit impossible to discuss things from a less popular side without getting some 'super wise' advises.
I certainly don't need this advises, because I already do my part every day and almost everywhere (partly caused the breakup with my partner, and doesn't make it more easy to get a job for a living, next maybe will be loosing my flat).
I don't complain. I try to discuss.

[Brianna Lovely]

If you don't like the grouping than try putting some effort into working for our group independantly. Talk to your legislators about protections. Stand up and dissent when someones makes a degrading comment about a T person. If you're not willing to put the work in, don't complain about the people that are.

Start small. I am just getting involved but the more you do, the more it snowballs into something larger.

Well put, Sally.

From my talks with a person, who was very involved, in the "Gay Rights Movement", the "T" used to be for TS people. Since 99% of the TG people where and still are "in the closet", someone had to stand up for them and they LGB people did.

From my association with various LGBT groups, I would say that 90% of the LGB people are still in the closet.

So, this leaves a few people, to bear the burden of FIGHTING for equal rights.

I don't want to sound too dramatic, but WE need to do something, You may be afraid, but if you want the right to be yourself, you have to stand up for yourself. Whether this means telling you SO that you're a TG person or wearing a skirt on Main Street, or showing your children that your behavior is normal or loving yourself for who you are, do something!

[Tamasina]

I belive simple that its those other communities that except us. Not like most of society that doesnt for reasons of pure ignorance.

[Tamera]

Life is like a PIE,
Why is it we have to keep picking it apart(TS, TG, BI, Gay, Straight, EtC.). Can't we just leave it as a whole pie treat everyone equal and get along???
Tamera

[Ranae]

I knew at the time of writing the original. Part of this thread we was going to see so many different ideas and commits about this.

Tamera, We are not picking the "pie" apart The BI, Gay, Straight, and so on,. Are totally different than your gender. I am one of the first and and very huge on treating everyone equal no matter gender or sexual orientation and I do try to get along with all until they give me a reason why I should not and even then I still try. I just get tired of the first question from someone when thy find out someone is TG they say, "Oh Your gay?" or "I thought you was married, Does she know your gay" or "How long have you known you were gay"...... It does not matter if I am Gay or Bi or A-sexual... It only matters that my blood runs red in my vain's like theres I am just in between genders.

It is not that I don't like the grouping, It is that just being Transgendered and being placed in a sexual orientation spot is wrong, It always has been and it will for many years to come. I do work to educate the general public about the TG life style.


As for trying to put some effort into working for our group independently. Those that know me personally, Knows I am one that opens my mouth and say's my piece, No matter if I am total out enfemm or plain old drab, I do stand up and try to get them to understand, when someone's makes a degrading comment about a Transgender.

Talk to your legislators about protections? We have laws that protect us as people, We as a group just need to learn how to use them for ourselves. Yes, there maybe times where a law needs a bit of tweaking but for the most part we have laws that we can use for almost every case we encounter.

Being trans does not make us any more special than the man or woman standing next to anyone of us. We only want to be equal to them and use the SAME rights and laws they use. My blood runs red just like everyone else's, So why should we not be equal?

Just like in Ohio. They are pushing for a Transgender Housing Discrimination Law. Why, The gender discrimination law on the books already cover us. This was proven a couple years back with a case in Columbus for a OSU student off campus. So why the effort and $ spent for a law that is already there. Use the time and effort for education or enforcing the existing laws.

It's just like I hear "We need a new Hate Crime Bill". Come on we have the hate crime laws already so why push for more of the same laws but with different names on it. I don't thank any of us are wanting "Special Treatment" at least I don't I just want treated like a human. Let's focus our attention on making them enforce the laws already there. It does no one any good to get laws the double over each other, passed if we are not going to make them enforce them.

For instance, Murder. To me Murder is Murder. Does it really matter how it is titled? No. If it is a "Hate Crime" murder they will get the same prison time as if it was a "Plain" murder. So why a new bill just to title it as a hate crime. Couldn't we have just as well put our time and effort and funding in to having the states murder bill set to "LIFE ONLY" instead of 15-25 years. Make them know if you are going to muder some one no matter if they are old, young, male,Trans, Female, or no matter what their sexual orientation is they will get life. Why should muder be different on the time spent in prision because of someones sexual orientation than if they was just old or a loving husband or child?


Now back to our part of acceptance. I am out to a lot of TG events that I host. Some only 3 or 4 girls some times just me or me and my wifey then there is some that 12 - 18 girls attend. These events are in public places. No, I am not talking the "Clubbing Scene" yet. Once in a while we might get a strange look/stare or a rough commit, But for the most part the general public to pay us much attention. We are not bothering them so they have no reason too. The ones that does come in contact with us usually has questions. They are wanting to understand us. The first thing is that they get to know we are not "Jerry Springer Guest", We do that by our appearance and actions. In the last 2 -3 years there has been a large turn around on how the general public see us. I believe we are actually seen in a far better light and really more accepted by the open public than the Gay community.

Now I did not say the Gay community does not accept us, I am just saying I see more shunning and "stay away from us" in the Gay community. Point in fact: I host a Girls Night Out once a month and the gay club we go to (now for 2 and a half years) accepts us. The patrons have came a long way on accepting us there, But for the first 6 months it was like putting oil on water. The "Boy's" would be at the bar and one of us girls would go to get a drink, They would hurry to leave the station or turn away from us and not even say a word. Yes, now they are used to us being there and knows the owner is not going to turn us away. So yes they dance talk and joke around with us. But these same "boys" if seen at any of the other clubs are just like they was at the beginning. So, that proves to me that they are just putting up with us at this one place and not really accepting us.


If you look around and talk with other host of TG parties or GNO's around the country you will see the same happenings.

Maybe it is just in our area, But I personally see it as being accepted in the open public far better than the acceptance in the Gay or Lesbian communities. So YES, I am all for educating the general public and getting our indepenance from the GBL as for the Transgender as a gender not a sexual orientation.

As I said at the start I try to get along with everyone so PLEASE don't shot the writer as it is just my thoughts and not the responcabilty of my fingers typing.

[Felixi]

I really want to know why.....


Transgender is lumped in to "Gay Lesbian & Bi" .

Transgender is not a sexuality, it is just in between "Male & Female".


As a male you have 4 types of sexuality:
Straight
Bi
Gay
A-Sexual


As a Female you have 4 types of sexuality:
Straight
Bi
Lesbian
A-Sexual


But as a Transgender you have 5 types of sexuality:
Straight
Bi
Gay
Lesbian
A-Sexual



So in the list how does the Transgender fit in the sexual titles?

Why did it get there anyhow?

Maybe I will just call myself a TryGender {I tried one gender now I will try the other}. Thats me Ranae!

RC
{With the inquiring mind}

As a straight, non-CDing male (I'm reading posts in here to better understand my friend who we (3 of us) accidentally discovered his secret life of CDing) I'm not sure of the section lised as: Some clarification would be appreciated.


But as a Transgender you have 5 types of sexuality:
Straight
Bi
Gay
Lesbian
A-Sexual


If the person is a MTF CDer and is Gay, does it mean he/she loves men? Or is this true when only in drag? When he is in drab does he still love men?

Would a CDer who loves women while in drag and drab be listed as a Lesbian? Or is this true only when dressed as female?

Is it possible (realistic or actually exist) for someone to love females while dressed as a woman and then when in males clothing, only loving men? How would they be classified using the terms given on the list?

Just trying to grasp some things foreign to me, not trying to be insensitive or insulting.

[Ranae]

I believe it is who or which they feel inside their mind at the time. So If the tg is in female mode and feels she is female within her mind, then she would feel she is les if with a woman and stright if with a man . But if her inner feelings are not strong as a woman and she feels she is still part a man, then she would be stright with a female and gay/bi with a man.



Just my way of looking at it.

[btmgrl6]

You said a mouthful.There are always those who will believe what they believe..who cares? Why waste our time trying to convince people otherwise?
I am a crossdresser,but I am not gay,bi or les.???
I feel like I am a pretty normal person,and for me a person's sexuality is no concern of mine. I don't care. Do you care about someone else's preference?
I have to giggle when I see a guy in a dress complain about not being accepted by so called society,then turning around and writing a full page disclaimer explaining how he may be a crossdresser,but Hell no I am not gay!
WTF?.........Who really cares? Do you think the average person out there really gives a rat's behind about your sexual preference? I don't :2c:

Steph

[Fab Karen]

Quote:
"When they came for the communists, I was silent, because I was not a communist; When they came for the socialists, I was silent, because I was not a socialist; When they came for the trade unionists, I did not protest, because I was not a trade unionist; When they came for the Jews, I did not protest, because I was not a Jew; When they came for me, there was no one left to protest on my behalf."
Think about it.

[btmgrl6]

Who's coming for who?

[battybattybats]

Any crime against civil rights effects us all. any crime against humanity diminishes all mankind. Too often people want to fight for their own rights but don't care about those of others similarly afflicted.

Besides, wasn't the Stonewall riot started by a man in womens clothes resisting the police? Drag Queen or gay CD, does it matter? It was still a man in womens clothes. Someone who chose to fight for what they thought was right.

Why are we lumped in with LG and B? Because that is where all human beings belong. It should be added to, not subtracted from. Add W for womens rights in general. Add Bl for black, H for hispanic, F for fathers who face discrimination in courts... inequality discrimination and bigotry should be opposed at every turn and I'll proudly stand by the side of anyone who fights against them, whichever group they belong to.

[Marla S]

Any crime against civil rights effects us all. any crime against humanity diminishes all mankind. Too often people want to fight for their own rights but don't care about those of others similarly afflicted.

Besides, wasn't the Stonewall riot started by a man in womens clothes resisting the police? Drag Queen or gay CD, does it matter? It was still a man in womens clothes. Someone who chose to fight for what they thought was right.

Why are we lumped in with LG and B? Because that is where all human beings belong. It should be added to, not subtracted from. Add W for womens rights in general. Add Bl for black, H for hispanic, F for fathers who face discrimination in courts... inequality discrimination and bigotry should be opposed at every turn and I'll proudly stand by the side of anyone who fights against them, whichever group they belong to.
First off, opposing to inequality discrimination and bigotry is a matter or course. We don't have to dispute about that.
But it is not my point here.

Let's see it from the other side. LGs achieved considerable progress. The are politicians, have TV shows, present the Academy Award, are actors, and at least here in G are fairly open in any field of society and business. That's the LGB part.

Now where is the T part of this movement and progress?
Do we wait for others (i.e. LGBs) to do the job for us ?
Did they forget us ?
Are we not enough ?
Are we not taken seriously ?
Don't we have an own profile ?

Why is it different ?

A final note: If I get odd comments, or reactions by the normal folks I just wished to get them for what I am and not for what I am not. Is this too much ?

[battybattybats]

Now where is the T part of this movement and progress?
Do we wait for others (i.e. LGBs) to do the job for us ?
Did they forget us ?
Are we not enough ?
Are we not taken seriously ?
Don't we have an own profile ?

Why is it different ?

All very good questions.

I'll add another one.
If the price of general acceptance was for most people who 'read' you dressed to think you were gay until they knew you better would it be worth paying?

I'd say yes but I'd be interested in the thoughts and reasons of others.


LGs achieved considerable progress. The are politicians...

There have been TS politicians in some countries. There was one in New Zealand IIRC some years ago.

[Marla S]

I'll add another one.
If the price of general acceptance was for most people who 'read' you dressed to think you were gay until they knew you better would it be worth paying?

I'd say yes but I'd be interested in the thoughts and reasons of others.

Tough one. Tendency towards no.
No, because it touches the question of identity.
To pay that price means to corrupt the identity.
I didn't choose to be CD, nor did I choose to be heterosexual ... I am not able to help it, but I am a het CD ... sorry.

The next question could be: If the price for general acceptance for people who now you dress would be to stay in the closet, would it be worth paying ? NOOOO !!! that's where I came from.
Not that I wouldn't eventually want to pay that price sometimes, I can't.

[Tamera]

I just get tired of the first question from someone when thy find out someone is TG they say, "Oh Your gay?" or "I thought you was married, Does she know your gay" or "How long have you known you were gay"......

This is because the lack of knowledge people have.


Talk to your legislators about protections? We have laws that protect us as people, We as a group just need to learn how to use them for ourselves. Yes, there maybe times where a law needs a bit of tweaking but for the most part we have laws that we can use for almost every case we encounter.

I believe the statement that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL ENCOMPESSES THIS

Just like in Ohio. They are pushing for a Transgender Housing Discrimination Law. Why, The gender discrimination law on the books already cover us. This was proven a couple years back with a case in Columbus for a OSU student off campus. So why the effort and $ spent for a law that is already there. Use the time and effort for education or enforcing the existing laws.

It's just like I hear "We need a new Hate Crime Bill". Come on we have the hate crime laws already so why push for more of the same laws but with different names on it. I don't thank any of us are wanting "Special Treatment" at least I don't I just want treated like a human. Let's focus our attention on making them enforce the laws already there. It does no one any good to get laws the double over each other, passed if we are not going to make them enforce them.

For instance, Murder. To me Murder is Murder. Does it really matter how it is titled? No. If it is a "Hate Crime" murder they will get the same prison time as if it was a "Plain" murder. So why a new bill just to title it as a hate crime. Couldn't we have just as well put our time and effort and funding in to having the states murder bill set to "LIFE ONLY" instead of 15-25 years. Make them know if you are going to muder some one no matter if they are old, young, male,Trans, Female, or no matter what their sexual orientation is they will get life. Why should muder be different on the time spent in prision because of someones sexual orientation than if they was just old or a loving husband or child?

This is what the lawyers have done to this world.

[B]So yes they dance talk and joke around with us. But these same "boys" if seen at any of the other clubs are just like they was at the beginning. So, that proves to me that they are just putting up with us at this one place and not really accepting us.[/B

Are you sure it is Acceptance and not Pier Pressure. What you do in one place in the presence of others may not be what you will do at another place. This is the same situation when we were going through school.

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So YES, I am all for educating the general public and getting our indepenance from the GBL as for the Transgender as a gender not a sexual orientation.

I think once this snowball is started the TS, CD, etc. communities are going to wonder where do they fit in?
Now I see why no doctors have taken their time to study us. So many variables that lead to other variables. You know instead of spending money on all these bills to pass, maybe our government should use that money to study us.

Hugs,
Tamera

[Sheri 4242]

For instance, Murder. To me Murder is Murder. Does it really matter how it is titled? No. If it is a "Hate Crime" murder they will get the same prison time as if it was a "Plain" murder. So why a new bill just to title it as a hate crime. Couldn't we have just as well put our time and effort and funding in to having the states murder bill set to "LIFE ONLY" instead of 15-25 years. Make them know if you are going to muder some one no matter if they are old, young, male,Trans, Female, or no matter what their sexual orientation is they will get life. Why should muder be different on the time spent in prision because of someones sexual orientation than if they was just old or a loving husband or child?

Yeah, it matters b/c of several factors. To understand the law on murder, you have to look at "motive." When new laws are enacted, like "hate crime" legislation, it is to fill a hole or gap that has been discovered. You can say, "murder is murder," but that doesn't cover that which is requisite to treat such crimes with equal due process -- it is too simplistic a view. "Hate crime" legislation came of age to ensure that the essential elements of malice were covered in prosecution -- IOW, there were some loopholes that needed filling. It wouldn't have been added unless there was a need, b/c to do so (to add it without need) would have made prosecution more difficult!

Every state's murder statutes go by different names, and certain elements vary. State and federal "hate crime" statutes and laws, respectively, close down these variances and is, therefore, a necessary tool.

Essentially, the elements of malice murder have traditionally been looked at as whether or not there was premeditation. Some defense lawyers were arguing that a hate-motivated murder didn't rise to that standard -- therefore, clearly malice killings were being argued down to second degree, or even voluntary manslaughter. What is most often known as second degree murder lacks premeditation -- and "passion of the moment" can be utilized for mitigation purposes in verdict and/or sentencing. It was a necessary move by our lawmakers to make certain that a lesser sentence didn't arise out of a good defense that sold mitigation within the bounds of technicality!

[christianna]

Yeah, it matters b/c of several factors. To understand the law on murder, you have to look at "motive." When new laws are enacted, like "hate crime" legislation, it is to fill a hole or gap that has been discovered. You can say, "murder is murder," but that doesn't cover that which is requisite to treat such crimes with equal due process -- it is too simplistic a view. "Hate crime" legislation came of age to ensure that the essential elements of malice were covered in prosecution -- IOW, there were some loopholes that needed filling. It wouldn't have been added unless there was a need, b/c to do so (to add it without need) would have made prosecution more difficult!

Every state's murder statutes go by different names, and certain elements vary. State and federal "hate crime" statutes and laws, respectively, close down these variances and is, therefore, a necessary tool.

Essentially, the elements of malice murder have traditionally been looked at as whether or not there was premeditation. Some defense lawyers were arguing that a hate-motivated murder didn't rise to that standard -- therefore, clearly malice killings were being argued down to second degree, or even voluntary manslaughter. What is most often known as second degree murder lacks premeditation -- and "passion of the moment" can be utilized for mitigation purposes in verdict and/or sentencing. It was a necessary move by our lawmakers to make certain that a lesser sentence didn't arise out of a good defense that sold mitigation within the bounds of technicality!

Thank you for that informed response. I wish I had come up with it.

Christianna