Sex and Gender?

[TG-Taru]

Bit of an unformed ramble, just skip it if you don't feel like reading it :)

First, was going to post somewhat off topic on another forum, then thought I'd come here, then it became confusing and I thought I wouldn't bother, but here I am again... just won't dig my self so deep rambling and getting confused :D -I totally understand if you don't feel like reading or replying, or think I got way off at some point... So answer or not, any part or thought, alone or in conjuction, follow offshoots... Do what you will.
Ah, I don't even know what I'm after, again... I didn't really finish my thought chains either... This started from the "why do we dress", going to "why, really, do we alter", I guess. The underlying reasons beyond the practicality of how things are.

Mainly I was thinking what significance sex (man/woman, body configuration according to genetics or treatment) and gender (male/female, the average and more or less exclusive typical appearance, traits and behaviours etc. of a certain sex) had (to T-folk of different kinds), and is it as it should be. Or is gender just a fact of brainsex and altering bodysex direct consequence of the degree of what end it leans more closely to.

Mmh, rambled myself confused anyway, feel free to ignore this paragraph or paint over and read it if your color setting make it grayed out and not so easy to see, as meant...
Most affected are those (classified as) not being happy with the body type they got to start with, and feel the need to change it. Is it really about the gender group, that one would need a body to match to join fully, body being beside the point in principal, or is the body the main point? Even if the world was such that you could be accepted in the gender group you felt you belong whatever sex you were? Would it be enough to unconditionally be one of the males even being a woman, or one of the females even born and unmodified man? It would obviously lead to many problems with sexuality issues, though in principal it's no different from gays and lesbians mixing with same sex straight people, just other way around and obvious. But "in a perfect world", where magically your gender was obvious regardless of your shape, and the sexes weren't artificially separated and there wouldn't be a need to. Is the sexuality aspect then what makes having the right kind of body so important? Having a conflicing sexuality/gender/sex combo to what's usual? As in straight-male-woman + lesbian-female-woman, mutual attraction according to body type, wrong genders. Having the body type you're attracted to yourself but not the usal gender to go with it. Much disappointment or just many weird vibes, or not finding anyone.

I currently class myself as TG, not just dressing but not particularly hating my body. It might be that I just can't get my mind around it the way TS do (I do at times get annoyed at my male features and would like to be more womanly, and obviously TS can't stand the wrong body... easy answer, that's the way it just is... but...), or that the way the world is has hammered the pattern in us so strongly, but... thoughts? Should sex and gender go together as tightly as they do? (In the non-transitioning forums I'd add, Would it be any fun if they didn't?)

[SirTrey]

I totally hear what you're saying here...I also consider Myself TG, and I don't particularly hate My body, either....I, like you, at times AM annoyed with it....Being FtM, I would rather enjoy having a penis, but I don't....and I'm not willing to go through the agonizing process of acquiring one...Also, being bi, I am attracted to both sexes, but primarily float hetero by genetics, but I guess I'm mostly gay by gender (aren't labels a bitch? LOL)...Anyway, I think it's all about the mind...."as you think, so you are"....This is where the irritation with My body comes in....I respond sexually when I connect to My GENDER, not My genetics....So, let's say I am making love with a male partner (I much prefer My male partners MtF, guys who float guy are NOT My thing), and that person goes for the breasts, for example....The "girl" thing is triggered and you might as throw ice water on My head....Not good....No idea if what I am saying is making any sense to you....Gist is, gender is how you feel, how you think, not what your body says you are....And that does not always match.....but doesn't necessarily mean you want to or are willing to change it.......LOL **Tracy**

[AmberTG]

I think, therefore I am. I think.
I believe this is the basis for concious life, and the body doesn't always line up with what's in your head. Then you throw sexual orientation into the mix and it gets to be real complex. Sometimes you just have to stop analizing it and just go with it. Trying to figure it all out just makes your head hurt. At some point you just have to say to yourself "I am what I am, whatever that is' That's the start of self-acceptance.

[TG-Taru]

I think, therefore I am. I think.
I believe this is the basis for concious life, and the body doesn't always line up with what's in your head. Then you throw sexual orientation into the mix and it gets to be real complex. Sometimes you just have to stop analizing it and just go with it. Trying to figure it all out just makes your head hurt. At some point you just have to say to yourself "I am what I am, whatever that is' That's the start of self-acceptance.

Yup, not saying you or I need to agonise over it, indeed, it's fine to just go with it, and no need to explain yourself. It's more idle curiosity than a question of self acceptance. Ponder it to pass the time, or just shrug and get on with it :)

[Ashly]

....Sometimes you just have to stop analizing it and just go with it. Trying to figure it all out just makes your head hurt. At some point you just have to say to yourself "I am what I am, whatever that is' That's the start of self-acceptance.

I can't agree more on that however, it is very difficult to start the self-acceptance route. At least, it is for me

[vivianann]

I consider myself tg, mtf. I want the body of a woman ( wide hips, big breasts, feminine facial features, etc.) but I do not want to have SRS. I am however getting facial feminization surgery, and breast implants to feminize my upper part of my body, so I can live full time as a woman, sexually I am only attracted to females only, so that makes for a difficult situation. What I would like is to find a female who wants to be in a gender role reversed marriage, where I would be the woman,(wife) and she would be the man (husband), I know that sounds weird. just wondering.

[CindyFinalyFree]

A few months ago, my therapyst asked me what I wanted in a partner... I told her I don't like men, and never have. Then she asked if I wanted a gay or straight woman.... I told her that I didn't know how to answer that question other than I would want someone who wanted 'me for who I am'.

I too am a mtf lesbian, to label myself. I want a relationship where I can be treated by my partner as a female, and could treat them with respect, love and tenderness. Note I keep saying 'partner'.... I guess I haven't ruled out men. I just don't have a thing for them. Then again, I haven't been afforded the opportunity to be loved as a woman by 'either' sex just yet. More to the point, I have accepted some time ago that I very well may never 'find' a partner. I'm ok with that. Sure, it would be nice, but it's not up there on my priorities in life. Perhaps at a later date...

[Teresa Amina]

The body is the point. Really, that's the one thing separating the CD from the TG/S; the desire to make it "right".

[Tamera]

If you are male interested in male you are classified as gay.
If you are female interested in female you are classified as Lesbian.
Now,
What if you are male dressed in female and are interested in male but when male you are interested in females. Are you Gay, Bi, etc.
I say NO. Why, because your brain cells are thinking of the gender you are at the time and responding to that genders emotions. Same as female in the same scenerio.

What you do in one gender may not be what you would do when dressed in the opposite. This is part of the TG world.
Tamera

[AmberTG]

Kehleyr, that's some food for thought, for sure! I've been trying to figure out where I fit in to this puzzle because I don't really fit any of these catagories very well. My analytical mind won't leave the question alone.
There seems to be a fluid area between CD and TG that I sort of fit into. For many years, my self-identity was that of a man who wanted to be a woman, wanted to be perceived and accepted as a woman. The logical part that always got to me was the "man" part. (that damned logic again) I never thought of myself as a "girl trapped in a boy's body", but I prayed many nights to wake up as a woman. It never made any sense to me, but at least I'm OK with it now, I know it's not some horrible disease or perversion, just the condition of my brain.
I hope this reply didn't get too far off topic.

[JamesAlan]

My girlfriend and I dated for 10 days, then broke up for 10 days. During the 10 day break up, she and I talked alot. It was at the end of that 10 days that she revealed to me that she wanted to -dress- as a woman. She had been scared to love me because she did not think I would be accepting and she felt she could never truely be happy in a relationship. She didn't think she'd ever be happy in a relationship because she thought she'd never find a woman that would accept her as a woman. We got back together and on our first date back together, I took her shopping for female things. A couple weeks later we were talking and she revealed to me that she wanted to -be- a woman. I accepted it without thought. When she and I dated the first time, unconsciously, I tended to take more of a male posture with her. Our friends joked and called us lesbians. It wasn't until a month into the relationship (when we had gotten back together) that she began telling her friends. They've been accepting and had been figuring it for a while. I'm bi myself and have been in relationships with women before. I love her dearly and it doesn't matter to me the body she is in, that's not what I love about her. She is -just- begining her transition, but she identifies as a ts lesbian. She has no attraction to men, but wants a woman to take a male role with her. It was natural for me to do so with her. Myself, I tend to have an androgynous gender-I feel like a man and a woman trapped in a woman's body. Sorry for going on so much about this.

[AmberTG]

I think you're girlfriend is a lucky girl to have someone like you.
As for your personal situation, I'll just say what my son said to me when I told him that I'm transgendered, "well, everybody's got something".
You seem to have found a good balance in your life and that's all that counts.
Oh, by the way, what better place to go on about something then this place? That's what we're here for.:D

[Chelseaswpa]

If you are male interested in male you are classified as gay.
If you are female interested in female you are classified as Lesbian.
Now,
What if you are male dressed in female and are interested in male but when male you are interested in females. Are you Gay, Bi, etc.
I say NO. Why, because your brain cells are thinking of the gender you are at the time and responding to that genders emotions. Same as female in the same scenerio.

What you do in one gender may not be what you would do when dressed in the opposite. This is part of the TG world.
Tamera

Okay Tamera - ya see why I dislike the label thing- but totally understand why different folks need to understand where we stand as individuals- LOL OMG this is way more complicated than when I was just hiding from everyone:heehee: I am going to need a lot of help from you guys on this:love:

[Chelseaswpa]

I think you're girlfriend is a lucky girl to have someone like you.
As for your personal situation, I'll just say what my son said to me when I told him that I'm transgendered, "well, everybody's got something".
You seem to have found a good balance in your life and that's all that counts.
Oh, by the way, what better place to go on about something then this place? That's what we're here for.:D

Amber I wish everyone had your son's outlook on life as he pretty much hit it on the head:p I see a lot of myself in your posts. I am so thankful to have found this site and all you wonderful folks who share their lives with us with no selfishness:hugs::love:

[valery]

Or is gender just a fact of brainsex and altering bodysex direct consequence of the degree of what end it leans more closely to.

This started from the "why do we dress", going to "why, really, do we alter", I guess. The underlying reasons beyond the practicality of how things are.

I currently class myself as TG, not just dressing but not particularly hating my body. It might be that I just can't get my mind around it the way TS do or that the way the world is has hammered the pattern in us so strongly, but... thoughts?

Should sex and gender go together as tightly as they do? (In the non-transitioning forums I'd add, Would it be any fun if they didn't?)


I hope that I didn't get totally side-tracked, OMG, but I couldn't stop thinking. It's not meant to be universally valid, just only my little thoughts!!!

!!!And again - I'm not a native speaker, so sorry that I always need so many words and please if anything sounds strange give me a sign and help me!!!


Transgender is usually used as a topic for all who play with their gender-identity (CD/TS/TV/Drag etc.) but many people put it into levels like CD > TV > TG > TS. So here it's already exciting to find out that those definitions are variable and intersecting or equal.

brainsex versus bodysex
Good question, I don't know, but why not, some international psychologists belief truely in that? But in my idea we're too complex to put it down into one formula(life is too fast and too short). In science TGs,CDs,TVs are usually assigned to fetishism - and medics discern between the people who want to go for GRS/SRS (TS) and all the rest of us and they continuous invent new words. They say if someone wants to have a gender reassignment there is a deep inner psychological conflict (being born in the wrong body) and it's less about being sexual aroused by clothes etc. I agree with that but usually at that point I'll ask: what's with all those "in betweens" and the ones having big conflicts but not going for GRS/SRS or the ones going for GRS/SRS but sexual aroused by the clothes too? Why do we(me too) always want to put it into one word. Can anybody describe the ocean in one word or love.
So scientific is already trying to classify between all this without having a generally accepted classification for the exact meaning of the things and words they play with and all what they can use is what they find/found in public or was written down in 70s and 80s or even earlier (Sigmund Freud etc.)
As example the word 'cross-dresser' came up 1970 with a group of heterosexual CDs in the USA, that didn't want to be associated with transvestic-fetishism or transvestites and we see that today the meaning is often/mostly complete different and that we/they will never get a final definition.
So I would say gender is just a word...containing the problem to fit into written classifications but there are much more gender-variations (increasing every day) than definitions. And something else that is very interesting here is that brain and body have a much closer bidirectional lateral transfer than we thought. Some medics today say that you also think with your whole body - all-embracing.

underlying reasons
No answers - but more questions - there are many theories about the psychological how, when and why of fetishism, but only few facts. Why does someone like cats and someone else like dogs? I think the truth why we(me too) still search for an answer is to show the world that we're not sick and that there is a good (positive) reason for that and that we're full-fledged members of this planet. So if all medics would say: Hello world, today we found out it's normal and good and here are the facts, nice idea, or - on the other hand frightening(power they have). If you have a cat nobody will say you're abnormal but as a guy some peole will ask you why a cat and not a dog? So why a skirt? Why not? - best answer! Or even better, cat and dog could ask why dress?
I think the basic-problem in all this is always the claim "to class - to pass". If we try to class ourselfs we're getting into big trouble and inner conflicts because first of all there are no general classifications we can find in a book and seccond: scientific, psychologists and medics are so controversial - all the stuff I've ever read - OMG - weird - underground. Gay people are a little bit further but still outsider in society. We try to class ourself because we want to belong somewhere and that's a claim for security and profiling to define a self-worth - to be something - to survive belonging to a group, find a partner(most important)? Everybody (needs???) to compare himself to others to find out about himself(?) But, to be able to do that you need values (high/low/good/bad/normal/abnormal etc.). If things don't have a defined value you can't compare them, but do we really need (want) that? Maybe some go for the GRS/SRS to fit better - I don't know. If I will ever do - I will keep my penis (InBetween) the rest will be absolutely female as good as possible. So what we try for ourselfs (sense of life) is to find out what we are, in principle is the same what public does, but there is a very strong difference contained in this. The public that may is 100% uninvolved in our story is usually afraid of the unknown, that's sadly a natural behavior (for all of us) for self-protection (get addicted/be infected/extinction) or they just don't want to accept something new in their idea of this world, because changes for many mean insecurity. Also they would have to compare themselves to us if they would accept us - inconvenient. What we try is to find our group and acceptance to be able to live on this planet(to pass) and this will be a long road to go and we won't solve it with different graduations to find the right places and people.
I like strawberries and no one will ever be able to change my mind, but if the whole world would say (or I would only have the idea that they think so) that people who eat strawberries are monsters and I maybe get the idea to loose my job or partner I might would draw the curtains close. This world is ruled by fear(the negative comes first), self-protection mechanisms but out of date in many, many areas. So how many CDs/TGs/TVs etc. are out there who'll never find out because the fear is so strong that they blank it without the chance to realize.
So just to give an idea about what only words can do to create fear and hate. Imagine we would say that the planet venus is not female, in fact it's a CD with a nice garter around and that mars is gay and pink (red was sabotage on the pictures) and that the moon is in-between because the word has no gender in it and that the sun is a TS a shining star. Make a big campain and be sure you'll get bad phone-calls because you'd create fear with just some words disturbing people allthough both sides wouldn't be able to prove their definitions but trying to stick to them. So is truth truth because someone said before or wrote it down? I don't think so. So we have to stop the world to "hammer the pattern in us so strongly"

Should sex and gender go together?
I can't say - but why should they - only words, words, words, - So I'll choose your fun idea - colorful-world, yes.






What I would like is to find a female who wants to be in a gender role reversed marriage, where I would be the woman,(wife) and she would be the man (husband), I know that sounds weird. just wondering.

Didn't sounds weird to me(also take a look at history). O.K. I agree that it's not the story of the usual soaps on TV and not many "normal"-people will call it "normal", but for me it's just you and that's o.k. and cool. Normal is a relative term, just forget it.
I'm looking for a woman who is able to accept me as a man and as valery, because I'm an >in between<. So she would have both. For me normal for public not, not yet!

:sad:

[Tamera]

Oh yes I can see about the labeling thing.

This way of life is like a FAMILY TREE that branches off into many directions. Maybe thats why no DOCTOR wants to take time and do a study.
Tamera

[Chelseaswpa]

Oh yes I can see about the labeling thing.

This way of life is like a FAMILY TREE that branches off into many directions. Maybe thats why no DOCTOR wants to take time and do a study.
Tamera

hell girl we scare 'em too damn much :heehee: hugs Chelsea

[Altema]

If you are male interested in male you are classified as gay.
If you are female interested in female you are classified as Lesbian.
Now,
What if you are male dressed in female and are interested in male but when male you are interested in females. Are you Gay, Bi, etc.
I say NO. Why, because your brain cells are thinking of the gender you are at the time and responding to that genders emotions. Same as female in the same scenerio.

What you do in one gender may not be what you would do when dressed in the opposite. This is part of the TG world.
Tamera
Tamera, I wondered if anyone would mention that on these forums. I totally agree with you. I love women! That's why I want to emulate them, to "be" them. I have never been attracted to men, but when I am "en femme", I am doing my best to *be* a woman. Women are attracted to men, and when I am in female mode, naturally I too am attracted to men. This just seems logical to me, and I don't believe it makes me gay or bi. What better way to validate my "femaleness" than to find some chemistry between myself and a GM? Just my opinion.

Brenda Leslie

[SirTrey]

I consider myself tg, mtf. I want the body of a woman ( wide hips, big breasts, feminine facial features, etc.) but I do not want to have SRS. I am however getting facial feminization surgery, and breast implants to feminize my upper part of my body, so I can live full time as a woman, sexually I am only attracted to females only, so that makes for a difficult situation. What I would like is to find a female who wants to be in a gender role reversed marriage, where I would be the woman,(wife) and she would be the man (husband), I know that sounds weird. just wondering.

Just saw this post and had to respond.....What you're saying here doesn't sound weird to ME at all......It's exactly what I have....My wife is MtF and I am FtM, I am the husband in every way, She is the wife....For the right two people, gender role reversal is VERY possible....Probably not easy to find, but not impossible....and certainly not weird. When it comes to gender, the possibilities are pretty much endless....We are all different....The trick is finding the person who is the Yin to your Yang....I was fortunate enough to do so....**T**